The Book of Civilians

[IAmBatman]

The Book of Civilians

C3G MARVEL WAVE 1
RISE OF THE MUTANTS

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Civilians_comic.jpg
Comic PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Civilians_comic.pdf)

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Civilians_mini.jpg

Mini PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Civilians_mini.pdf)

The black male figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Infinity Challenge set.
Its model number and name are #013-015 / Thug.

The single white female figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Universe set.
Its model number and name are #007-009 / Con Artist.

The single white female figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Xplosion set.
Its model number and name are #001-003 / Con Artist.

The white male fireman figure used for this unit is a Horrorclix figure from the Freakshow set.
Its model number and name are #073, 074 / Firefighter.

The white male fireman figure used for this unit is a Horrorclix figure from the Freakshow set.
Its model number and name are #005 / Big Red.

The mother and son combo figure used for this unit is a Horrorclix figure from the Freakshow set.
Its model number and name are #028, 029 / Monster Patrol.

The mother and son combo figure used for this unit is a Horrorclix figure from the Freakshow set.
Its model number and name are #030 / Bailey and Jameson.
_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio - Without much in the way of power individually, these "puny humans" can occasionally get in a lick now and again based on sheer numbers, even though they are constantly running around getting in the way.
_________________________________________________________________


-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received


Classic:
Civilians can roll an additional attack or defense die if there is a friendly Human adjacent to them. Current Humans include:Current Unique Human Heroes include: 10th Regiment of the Foot (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8273); 4th Massachusetts Line (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19518); Agent Carr (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8276); Agent Skahen (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=20771); Airborne Elite (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8683); Alastair MacDirk (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8576); Ana Karithon (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28052); Ashigaru Harquebus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9615); Ashigaru Yari (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9613); Brave Arrow (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25122); Capuan Gladiators (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25348); Crixus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8602); Deadeye Dan (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8106); Eldgrim the Viking Champion (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8573); Evar Scarcarver (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33378); Finn the Viking Champion (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8415); Guilty McCreech (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8111); Hatamoto Taro (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8403); Isamu (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9616); Izumi Samurai (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8397); James Murphy (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8689); Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8112); Kaemon Awa (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8402); Kato Katsuro (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19519); Knights of Weston (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8397); Kozuke Samurai (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8398); Krav Maga Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8405); Kumiko (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25327); MacDirk Warriors (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8423); Marcus Decimus Gallus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8687); Master Win Chiu Woo (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10401); Microcorp Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8686); Mika Connour (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1148737); Mohican River Tribe (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25123); Moriko (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19545); Nakita Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8600); Ninjas of the Northern Wind (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8116); Otonashi (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19544); Parmenio (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8589); Retiarius (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8603); Roman Archers (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8120); Roman Legionnaires (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8684); Sacred Band (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8690); Samuel Brown (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33704); Sgt. Drake Alexander (RotV) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8418); Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM) (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=11081); Shaolin Monks (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8122); Shiori (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=12188); Sir Denrick (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8577); Sir Dupuis (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19521); Sir Gilbert (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8578); Sir Hawthorne (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8579); Spartacus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8601); Tagawa Samurai (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8400); Tagawa Samurai Archers (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8401); Tandros Kreel (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28051); Tarn Viking Warriors (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8417); Templar Cavalry (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9622); Thorgrim the Viking Champion (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8416); Valguard (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8588).Marvel:
Civilians can roll an additional attack or defense die if there is a friendly Human adjacent to them. Current Humans include: Current Unique Human Heroes include: Captain America (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9712), Doctor Doom (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9713), Incredible Hulk (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9718), Iron Man (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9715), Spider-Man (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9716).C3G:
Civilians can roll an additional attack or defense die if there is a friendly Human adjacent to them. Current Humans include: 5th Precinct Beat Cops (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28615); Arkham Inmates (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37269); Atom (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35630); Bad Cops (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36225); Bane (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38338); Baron Zemo (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41249); Batman (Bruce Wayne) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28596); Batman (Bruce Wayne II) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39778); Batman (Terry McGinnis) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33040); Billy Batson (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35875); Black Adam (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1375933); Black Mask (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30312); Black Panther (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39972); Black Widow (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35363); Bob, Agent of HYDRA (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31303); Bodyguard (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32127); Boomerang (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37581); Bucky (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35623); Buffy Summers (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42189); Bullseye (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1102437); Catwoman (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28593); Captain America (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35281); Captain Boomerang (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37628); Captain Cold (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37086); Captain Marvel (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34981); Catwoman (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28593); Chameleon (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1408112); Chronos (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32196); Commissioner Gordon (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32118); Doctor Doom (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30561); Doctor Fate (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34734); Doctor Strange (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35263); Dum Dum Dugan (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34752); Echo (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33610); Elektra (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32647); Elite League Assassins (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38210); Firefly (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39999); Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33502); Green Arrow (Oliver Queen) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28592); Green Lantern (Guy Gardner) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1147514); Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29548); Green Lantern (John Stewart) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32101); Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1085018); Hand Ninja (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31371); Hawkeye (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37583); Heat Wave (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37599); Hired Guns (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1212194); Hugo Strange (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39219); Huntress (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29860); Hush (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35869); HYDRA Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31085); Intergang Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40000); Iron Man (Hulkbuster) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37073); Iron Man (MKI) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33997); Iron Man (MKII) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36470); Iron Man (MKIII) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36743); Iron Man (MKIV) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36904); Iron Man (MKV) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37280); Iron Man (Stealth Suit) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37052); Joker (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28606); Joker (II) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38384); Joker Goons (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=44173); Jonah Hex (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30986); Juggernaut (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36702); Kang (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1268559); Kingpin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33766); Kraven (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38263); Lady Shiva (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38983); LexCorp Security (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36892); Lex Luthor (Battle Suit) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1241310); Lex Luthor (Business Suit) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29547); Mad Hatter (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35532); Mad Thinker (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37261); Madame HYDRA (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30847); Mandarin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34736); Merlyn (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37919); Mirror Master (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37200); Mister Freeze (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38853); Mister Zsasz (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40164); Mockingbird (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38886); Mole Man (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30555); Mysterio (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37460); Nick Fury (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1353543); Penguin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30670); Pied Piper (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39114); Prowler (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40483); Punisher (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1084689); Puppet Master (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30553); Ragdoll (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40224); Ra's al Ghul (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36101); Robin (Dick Grayson) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37117); Robin (Tim Drake) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1106410); Scarecrow (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1342225); Science Police (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1362893); Shadow Thief (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33464); S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32608); S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30370); S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30384); Shang-Chi (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38778); Shocker (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38269); Speedy (Mia Dearden) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34125); Speedy (Roy Harper) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38996); Spoiler (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1608796); Steel (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37405); Street Thugs (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28629); Talia al Ghul (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38046); The Hood (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38192); The Riddler (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29814); Trapster (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34242); Trickster (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38742); Two-Face (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28586); Ubu (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39902); Ventriloquist (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35410); Vixen (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36194); Vulture (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37480); War Machine (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36875); Weather Wizard (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37934); Winter Soldier (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36990); Wizard (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39945); Yellow Lantern (Jonathan Crane) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41938).Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
After revealing an Order Marker on the Civilians, you may move up to 8 Citizens you control and attack with any 4 Citizens you control with the Crowd Movement special power. Current Citizens include: Civilians, Billy Batson (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35875).
When attacking or defending with any Human Citizen, if that Human Citizen is adjacent to another friendly Human, it rolls an additional die due to the Strength in Numbers special power. Current Citizens include: Civilians, Billy Batson (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35875).
When a figure you control rolls defense dice, you may move 2 Citizens you control up to 4 spaces each with the Panic special power. Current Citizens include: Civilians, Billy Batson (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35875).______________________________________________ ___________________

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
Like Deathreavers, Civilians are great at tying down opposing forces and freeing up your ranged units.
CharosinCharge Strategy Tips (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1305468&postcount=334)-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
Playtest 1 - Pass at 35 Points (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=998309&postcount=141)
Playtest 2 - Pass at 40-45 Points (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1000525&postcount=150)
Playtest 3 - Pass at 40-45 Points (45 preferred) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1001711&postcount=164)

[Hahma]

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Here's some images that I found by looking through some of my comics and scanning in the page. After some cropping and whatnot, these are what I got. If anyone can find something different or better that they like, feel free to post it.


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/C3GCivilians3.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/C3GCivillians2.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/C3GCivillians1.jpg

[IAmBatman]

Without that robust Deathreaver defense, I'd say they're worth only 30 points (yeah, I know they have the Crowd Movement, but the Deathreavers have a couple more powers besides Scatter too).
They're looking pretty good to me, though! I think the main thing we need to decide is which figures we're going to use. :-)

[Hahma]

I forgot to change the points when I dropped Safety In Numbers from the special powers that I had came up the last time. Since we're going more simpler with heroes, there's no way I want three special powers on Civilians. But it's changed now to 30.

Don't know about figures yet. Nothing really excites me about the choices so far.

[IAmBatman]

I'll try to dig up some more possibilities in a little bit. They're civilians, though, not sure how excited we're going to get ...

[GreyOwl]

I think Civilians need to have some benefit to drafting them, besides just being low cost. They should also have a thematic benefit to either heroes or villains.

[Hahma]

I think Civilians need to have some benefit to drafting them, besides just being low cost. They should also have a thematic benefit to either heroes or villains.

I tried that but it didn't go over too well with them actually doing something other than being in the way types. For me, they'll likely be more of a scenario specific type unit than something I'd draft or army build with. For as low points as they will likely be, I'd take Deathreavers anytime over Civilians.

[IAmBatman]

I think Civilians need to have some benefit to drafting them, besides just being low cost. They should also have a thematic benefit to either heroes or villains.

I'd like them to stay generic enough that, depending on the situation, they can fit into both hero and villain armies.
I think they're going to have a lot of flavor placed on them in scenarios for things like that.
I know we're wanting to keep them with two powers, but one that could help them be more draftable would be ...

"STRENGTH IN NUMBERS"
When attack or defending with a Civilian, add 1 die for each other adjacent Civilian up to a maximum of +2 dice for the Strength in Numbers power.

This would help you want to draft a bunch of them and help them stand up to the world of Superheroes a lot better, IMO ...

[Hahma]

I think Civilians need to have some benefit to drafting them, besides just being low cost. They should also have a thematic benefit to either heroes or villains.

I'd like them to stay generic enough that, depending on the situation, they can fit into both hero and villain armies.
I think they're going to have a lot of flavor placed on them in scenarios for things like that.
I know we're wanting to keep them with two powers, but one that could help them be more draftable would be ...

"STRENGTH IN NUMBERS"
When attack or defending with a Civilian, add 1 die for each other adjacent Civilian up to a maximum of +2 dice for the Strength in Numbers power.

This would help you want to draft a bunch of them and help them stand up to the world of Superheroes a lot better, IMO ...

Then which of the other two do you want to drop?

[GreyOwl]

In my Civilians custom, I have a power that makes them somewhat useful, both from a hero and a villain perspective. You might want to see if that sparks any ideas.

[IAmBatman]

A link to that card in this thread would probably be useful, GreyOwl. :-)

[IAmBatman]

I think Civilians need to have some benefit to drafting them, besides just being low cost. They should also have a thematic benefit to either heroes or villains.

I'd like them to stay generic enough that, depending on the situation, they can fit into both hero and villain armies.
I think they're going to have a lot of flavor placed on them in scenarios for things like that.
I know we're wanting to keep them with two powers, but one that could help them be more draftable would be ...

"STRENGTH IN NUMBERS"
When attack or defending with a Civilian, add 1 die for each other adjacent Civilian up to a maximum of +2 dice for the Strength in Numbers power.

This would help you want to draft a bunch of them and help them stand up to the world of Superheroes a lot better, IMO ...

Then which of the other two do you want to drop?

If I had to choose one, probably Crowd Movement ... Panic is more interesting, IMO, and it will still give you plenty of chances to take advantage of Strength in Numbers.

[GreyOwl]

Sorry, I've linked it several times before while discussing civilians so I didn't want people to think I was pushing that version too much. But since you asked...

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/CIVILIANS.jpg

EDIT: It's not perfect, in that it benefits acting like a hero more than it does a villain, but it may be a good starting point.

[IAmBatman]

OK, Fright isn't something we need to worry about, since we're already covering similar ground with Panic.
I could see Hero or Villain as a possible alternative to Strength in Numbers as it would allow for built in "hostage situation" and "hero saving the civilian" types of set ups. And that would be pretty cool.
So you would draft Civilians to have disposable lives for your unique heroes, basically, or if you have someone with a strong defense, you can keep them alive and use them for map control.
I could see doing "Hero or Villain" along with "Panic."

[Balantai]

I think the Civilian card has a possibility to be a really exciting card. More-so than any other figure in this set. We should probably all brainstorm some ideas.

[IAmBatman]

What do you think of all the brainstorming we've done thus far? :-P

[Hahma]

:lol:

[Hahma]

Sorry, I've linked it several times before while discussing civilians so I didn't want people to think I was pushing that version too much. But since you asked...

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/CIVILIANS.jpg

EDIT: It's not perfect, in that it benefits acting like a hero more than it does a villain, but it may be a good starting point.

OK, Fright isn't something we need to worry about, since we're already covering similar ground with Panic.
I could see Hero or Villain as a possible alternative to Strength in Numbers as it would allow for built in "hostage situation" and "hero saving the civilian" types of set ups. And that would be pretty cool.
So you would draft Civilians to have disposable lives for your unique heroes, basically, or if you have someone with a strong defense, you can keep them alive and use them for map control.
I could see doing "Hero or Villain" along with "Panic."

I agree with "Hero or Villain" can go good with the "Panic" that seems to be desired/necessary for civilian types. I liked "Hero or Villain" when GreyOwl originally offered up his card for reference, but didn't know protocol for lifting a cool power from a existing for C3G cards. Personally I don't have a problem with using a preexisting power/mechanic if it works the best and makes sense, and gets the blessing of the creator of it. I'd hate to avoid using something really cool just for the sake of having to create something totally new every single time.

[GreyOwl]

I don't mind you using it. But it could probably use a little tweaking, so it may not end up being exactly the same anyway.

[IAmBatman]

I'm all about using both official powers and powers on our other custom cards when it's useful. We should usually try to start from scratch, but, heck, when I put together Two-Face, one of the first things I did was collect Hi1, GreyOwl, and my Two-Face customs and mine them for ideas.

[Griffin]

Panic is a great power!
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hahma again.
I think that we should keep in mind as we build this squad, that they are not just Citizens, they are Civilian Rioters. I think that the 2 powers on the first post currently grasp the theme of these guys/gals in terms of movement, but what about their ability to cause some offensive trouble in numbers? Turning over cars, breaking walls (Destructible Objects), or singling out a Hero/Villain and ganging up on him, those are some thematic elements that we should consider as well. Btw, I wouldn't mind 3 powers on this card, I don't think that it is necessary, but if we wanted to have 3 powers, I wouldn't mind. Just saying.

[Hahma]

Panic is a great power!
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hahma again.I think that we should keep in mind as we build this squad, that they are not just Citizens, they are Civilian Rioters. I think that the 2 powers on the first post currently grasp the theme of these guys/gals in terms of movement, but what about their ability to cause some offensive trouble in numbers? Turning over cars, breaking walls (Destructible Objects), or singling out a Hero/Villain and ganging up on him, those are some thematic elements that we should consider as well. Btw, I wouldn't mind 3 powers on this card, I don't think that it is necessary, but if we wanted to have 3 powers, I wouldn't mind. Just saying.


Thanks for liking Panic, it's basically the Deathreavers Scatter though.

I seem to get mixed responses as to what these Civilians are supposed to be. Some want them more tame like regular people getting caught up in whatever's going on around them, and you Griff want them more aggressive and pro-active. I had like 5 or so different versions that I posted on the X-Men thread before we got this nice new place and some of those versions were more offensive minded.

I didn't know if we wanted a basic Civilian type that can have Riotous behavior added by a scenario or Glyph (Adrenaline Rush was originally going to be Riot and add +2 to Civilian's attack, but Bats suggested perhaps not making it Civilian specific and open to Common Human figures and drop it to +1, so I agreed not to pigeonhole one glyph strictly to the Civilians)

Or

If we wanted the Civilians always represented as aggressive types.

[GreyOwl]

Since when are they rioters? That sounds scenario specific.

[IAmBatman]

Yes, that's something we need to sort out and decide on.
Here's my thinking:

We're probably only going to do one type of civilian card ever. So let's not pigeonhole ourselves into having them be specifically aggressive/rioting type civilians. I think civilians with a more basic template could still act as aggressive/rioting types in specific scenarios. Yet, if done correctly, they could also act as innocent bystanders or hostages in certain scenarios. Since we're only likely going to do one version of civilians ever, shouldn't we give them maximum flexibility?
I really think "Panic" combined with "Hero or Villain" accomplishes that and also makes them playable in terms of basic army creation for those completely unconcerned with theme.

[GreyOwl]

I agree with Bats.

[Balantai]

I also agree with Bats. What about making "Riot" and Special Power?

[Griffin]

I am pretty darn certain that we decided a long way back that we would have them as Civilian Rioters. I am fine with them not being Rioters, that is not my scenario agenda :roll:, I simply thought that it was something that we had agreed to already. I am good either way, but I think it is important that all of us (me included) know exactly what units we are creating so we all know what to expect out of them thematically.

[IAmBatman]

Is it something we need to hash out in the voting thread? Or are we happy to accept that the prevailing sentiment seems to be that they should be more generic civilian types?
As I recall, we originally voted in our street thugs as "gangsters" but they didn't exactly end up that way ... (and, for the better, in my extremely biased opinion. :-P).

[Griffin]

Like I said, either direction is fine with me. I would like to know what that direction is though, or it will hard for me to chime in with constructive input.

[IAmBatman]

Well, Balantai, GreyOwl, and I all seem to favor the generic Civilian approach. I'd like to hear from others, though.

[Hahma]

I wasn't part of the original vote to get the Civilians in, so I didn't know what was expected for them. My more offensive versions presented before in original X-Men thread didn't receive much favor. So I've learned that it seemed that something different was expected.

I guess I've been swayed to have the Civilians more generic rather than X-Men specific (as in anti-Mutant rioters or whatever). I think if they are generic, they can be used in many more situations.

To get "rioting" Civilians, perhaps that has to be written into the scenario where they are attacking the X-Men while the Villains are stirring things up and getting into it. The X-Men may have to fight off a couple meddling Villains but not hurt the Civilians. The Civilians can even start out in control of the Adrenaline Rush Glyph in order to give them +1 to attack. I don't know, but I'm sure there can be ways to represent the Civilians as rioters in scenarios without forcing them to be full-time rioters.

[Griffin]

I think for the sake of all future games, scenarios, sets, and whatnot, normal civilians would be my pick over rioters. Not to say that I wouldn't want some rioters at some point, but casual in-the-way civies would be appropriate right now I think, at least for what I would want. Death Reaver Scatter + Zombie Horde Movement is a good way to capture that. Props!

[IAmBatman]

Sounds like most people are good with the generic version, then, so we should probably go forward with that.
Is "Panic" and "Villain or Hero" enough to round these guys out?

[Hahma]

Sounds like most people are good with the generic version, then, so we should probably go forward with that.
Is "Panic" and "Villain or Hero" enough to round these guys out?


Do we want to have Crowd Movement in there as well for more flavor and easier potential for riotous usage in the right scenario? Could the addition of Crowd Movement make them more interesting and useful for "Villain or Hero" as well, and kind of making them a general nuisance and unpredictible for your opponent?

[Hahma]

double post

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... after thinking about it further I'm not sure that Villain or Hero really offers a true advantage for the Hero side of things ... I mean, even if I'm using someone like Captain America, who thematically would always be the hero, speaking strategically, why would I ever choose to use Cap to defend the civilian, instead of using the civilian to take the bullet for Cap?
Also, that aspect of the Hero or Villain power - I'll call it the "Villain" part - seems pretty similar to the "Protect and Serve" power on the Cops.
I'm starting to think the "Strength in Numbers" power is a better way to go ... and the Hero or Villain type of power might be better used as a scenario rule.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds like most people are good with the generic version, then, so we should probably go forward with that.
Is "Panic" and "Villain or Hero" enough to round these guys out?


Do we want to have Crowd Movement in there as well for more flavor and easier potential for riotous usage in the right scenario? Could the addition of Crowd Movement make them more interesting and useful for "Villain or Hero" as well, and kind of making them a general nuisance and unpredictible for your opponent?

I thought we were trying to avoid a third power on them? :-D

[Griffin]

I would like to see Panic stay and have this power added to the card:
Strength In Numbers
Each Civilian you control that is adjacent to one other human you control receives +1 to their Defense and Normal Attack, maximum of +1.

[IAmBatman]

I don't think we have to specify normal when it's their only attack. :-P

Edit: But I like the idea of adjusting Strength in Numbers to be only +1 and to work when adjacent to any human - gives some of that "Hero or Villain" flavor back in but with a power that works a bit better in more situations, IMO.

[Hahma]

nevermind

[IAmBatman]

I like the general direction a lot! :-D But with a slightly adjusted Strength in Numbers power based on Griff's ideas.
And then I guess we have to decide if we want that third power (Crowd Movement) on there or not.
I like it, but if there's any card that's a good candidate for fewer than three powers, isn't it this one?

[Griffin]

nevermindWith that kind of post someone is bound to post a picture of a naked baby swimming for money.;)

[Griffin]

I like the general direction a lot! :-D But with a slightly adjusted Strength in Numbers power based on Griff's ideas.
And then I guess we have to decide if we want that third power (Crowd Movement) on there or not.
I like it, but if there's any card that's a good candidate for fewer than three powers, isn't it this one?
I really think that Crowd Movement would be cool to have on this card, and it would put some needed power on here without straying away from the general theme of generic citizens. I would like to have Crowd Movement, Panic, and Strength In Numbers all on this card.

[Hahma]

Sounds like most people are good with the generic version, then, so we should probably go forward with that.
Is "Panic" and "Villain or Hero" enough to round these guys out?


Do we want to have Crowd Movement in there as well for more flavor and easier potential for riotous usage in the right scenario? Could the addition of Crowd Movement make them more interesting and useful for "Villain or Hero" as well, and kind of making them a general nuisance and unpredictible for your opponent?

I thought we were trying to avoid a third power on them? :-D

Oh yeah. :)

I would like to see Panic stay and have this power added to the card:
Strength In Numbers
Each Civilian you control that is adjacent to one other human you control receives +1 to their Defense and Normal Attack, maximum of +1.

Cool

I don't think we have to specify normal when it's their only attack. :-P

Edit: But I like the idea of adjusting Strength in Numbers to be only +1 and to work when adjacent to any human - gives some of that "Hero or Villain" flavor back in but with a power that works a bit better in more situations, IMO.


So then Panic and Griff's Strength in numbers (less the "Normal" ;)) should suffice then? And Bats, maybe Griff saw you trying to get Balantai to use "Normal" instead of "Regular" so he thought he'd make sure and throw the "Normal" in there. :D

[IAmBatman]

I like Panic, I like Griffin's adjusted take on Strength in Numbers. I'm open to hearing what others have to say about whether we should have a third power on there or not (Griffin seems in favor).

[Hahma]

I like the general direction a lot! :-D But with a slightly adjusted Strength in Numbers power based on Griff's ideas.
And then I guess we have to decide if we want that third power (Crowd Movement) on there or not.
I like it, but if there's any card that's a good candidate for fewer than three powers, isn't it this one?

True, and I thought/said that at first. But Civilians have such basic crappy base stats that can't be used to "pretend/imagine" they are anything other than what they are. At least Cops and Thugs have ranged attacks in their base stats.

nevermindWith that kind of post someone is bound to post a picture of a naked baby swimming for money.;)

Probably some Aussie going to throw that picture out there again. :D

I like the general direction a lot! :-D But with a slightly adjusted Strength in Numbers power based on Griff's ideas.
And then I guess we have to decide if we want that third power (Crowd Movement) on there or not.
I like it, but if there's any card that's a good candidate for fewer than three powers, isn't it this one?
I really think that Crowd Movement would be cool to have on this card, and it would put some needed power on here without straying away from the general theme of generic citizens. I would like to have Crowd Movement, Panic, and Strength In Numbers all on this card.

I'm tending to agree. It might give them more flavor and a variety of uses, as well as more attractive to draft. Edit: And this is the biggest thing to me, is for them to be a unit that would entice someone to include them in their army if they didn't have to because of a scenario.

[IAmBatman]

If you guys are in favor of rolling with three powers, I can roll with three powers. At the very least, none of them are too complex. I think these guys are going to end up being the ultimate map control unit.

[Hahma]

If you guys are in favor of rolling with three powers, I can roll with three powers. At the very least, none of them are too complex. I think these guys are going to end up being the ultimate map control unit.

Either way, two or three powers, I'd like them be be something that players would enjoy playing outside of a scenario. If they suck outside of a scenario, then they might as well be Rioters.

[IAmBatman]

Do you enjoy using Deathreavers outside of scenarios? Because I think these guys will end up being suped up Deathreavers.

[GreyOwl]

Shouldn't civilians be weaker than Deathreavers, just thematically speaking, rather than being a suped up version of them?

[IAmBatman]

Well their normal stats are weaker than Deathreavers, and even with Strength in Numbers their defense is lower than Deathreavers (but their attack is higher) - that's a situational power, though.
I guess you could argue that Horde Movement and Disengage have about equal value.
So ... maybe not suped up Deathreavers, but similar to Deathreavers.

[Hahma]

Do you enjoy using Deathreavers outside of scenarios? Because I think these guys will end up being suped up Deathreavers.

Yes, but I don't know that these guys would be suped up Deathreavers.

Shouldn't civilians be weaker than Deathreavers, just thematically speaking, rather than being a suped up version of them?

Probably shouldn't be better than Deathreavers, but shouldn't they be useful enough for someone to use them in a similar fashion, annoying your opponent. :D

Well their normal stats are weaker than Deathreavers, and even with Strength in Numbers their defense is lower than Deathreavers (but their attack is higher) - that's a situational power, though.
I guess you could argue that Horde Movement and Disengage have about equal value.
So ... maybe not suped up Deathreavers, but similar to Deathreavers.

Deathreavers can also move 6 vs. 4 of Civilians and climb higher. Also, having to have Civilians adjacent to each other for Strength In Numbers opens them up to all kinds of trouble when their opponent has attacks that hit all adjacent figures to targeted one. So it can be a double edged sword I guess.

[IAmBatman]

Fair enough - also, no Soulborg invulnerabilities. I think that Horde Movement more than makes up for their slowness. And it's nice that they can at least situationally attack with three dice.
I'd put them on about even footing with the Deathreavers right now, though, in terms of cost. They might be slightly less effective than the Deathreavers at 40 points, but that's OK, because the Deathreavers are A+ figures. I think the civilians will still be useful enough (i.e. annoying enough) to be drafted.

[GreyOwl]

Sounds good.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think these guys will be a nice addition, and things like Civilian Hostages, Civilian Rioters, and Civilians inspiring heroes and having their backs can all be covered in scenarios where the different, narrow flavors of civilians can be better explored.

[NecroBlade]

So are the stats/powers at the beginning of the thread current? If so, wording suggestion:

STRENGTH IN NUMBERS
Each Civilian you control that is adjacent to one other human you control receives +1 to their Defense and Attack, for a maximum of +1.

Each Civilian adds 1 to its Attack and Defense values as long as it is adjacent to at least one other human.

And are we looking at 40 points instead of 30 for these guys? If you can Crowd Move/Panic them to height with a buddy, they're 3/4's which is actually very respectable for a squad!

[IAmBatman]

I think a bump of 40 is for sure - and playtesting may show them to be worth 50. But since the stat bumps are somewhat conditional and force them to cluster (making them more vulnerable to area attacks), I think that restores the balance somewhat.

[NecroBlade]

Oh I agree, it takes all three of their powers to get the effect, but they're reasonably formidable if you do. Being slow and either weak or grouped, though, 40 will probably end up being good.

[IAmBatman]

And I like them at 40 being the "rats" of SuperHeroScape. They probably won't be quite as annoying and effective, but that's OK. And I think it's a nice role for them.

[Hahma]

Points updated on first page.

[IAmBatman]

I really think Strength in Numbers should echo Shield Wall and read this way ...


STRENGTH IN NUMBERS
Each Civilian you control that is adjacent to one other human you control adds 1 defense and attack die up to a maximum of +1 die for the Strength in Numbers power.

[Hahma]

Changed on first page to new version of Strength In Numbers

[IAmBatman]

I think they're ready. Do you guys think they're ready?
I propose we move the Civilians on to playtesting.

[Hahma]

Yea

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea.

[NecroBlade]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Sweet, Civilians are now in the playtesting phase. :-)

[Balantai]

I know we moved to the playtesting phase, but I have a couple questions. :twisted:

1. Shouldn't they have a defense of 1? Is there anyone less defensive than a civilian?

2. Should Panic force you to end your movement unengaged?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Pretty thematic questions Balantai. So anyone got an answer?

[Griffin]

I gotta say, I am with Balantai on this one. Good stuff Balantai. +rep at ya.

[Hahma]

I know we moved to the playtesting phase, but I have a couple questions. :twisted:

1. Shouldn't they have a defense of 1? Is there anyone less defensive than a civilian?

2. Should Panic force you to end your movement unengaged?

Pretty thematic questions Balantai. So anyone got an answer?

I gotta say, I am with Balantai on this one. Good stuff Balantai. +rep at ya.


Nice suggestion Balantai. First page changed to reflect changes. Though I think points should come down as well with less defense and Panic restriction. I'll drop them back down to 30 for now.

[Balantai]

What about changing strength in numbers to be a maximum of +2, but have no effect on defense?

[IAmBatman]

If Panic doesn't allow them to end engaged, though, then it severely drops their value, IMO. One of the things panic accomplished was a rat like ability to tie down shooters. This version would not accomplish this and puts us back to, IMO, the question of why do you want to put an OM on these guys ever (or draft them)?
If a power named "Scatter" allows you to end your turn engaged, I don't see why a power named "Panic" can't ...

[NecroBlade]

How many panicked crowds have you seen run in all directions (i.e some people away from danger, some toward it)?

Answer: all of them.

[IAmBatman]

Exactly!

[Hahma]

Changed Panic back to original wording on page 1. Kept new defense of 1 and changed points to 35.

[IAmBatman]

I like it, and my vote remains in "yea" status.

[Griffin]

Good stuff IMO.
Yeah status? Check!

[Hahma]

yea

[NecroBlade]

Yea

[NecroBlade]

Still have a couple things to get out of the way, but I will be playtesting these guys soon. Here are some playtest ideas.

Squad Test: 4x Civilians vs 2x Knights of Weston
Civvies have numerical and mobility superiority, but KoW make up for that in offensive and defensive stats.

Heavy Hitter Test: 4x Civilians vs Master Win Chiu Woo
Woo isn't the most competitive figure in this range, nor will all his powers come into play, but he is very mobile and can multi-attack well against melee figures, both of which will be most valuable.

Melee Army Test (@350 points): 3x Civilians, Jotun, Marcu Esenwein vs 2x Axegrinders, Migol, Major X17
Civvies do what they do best, clogging the board, with the added benefit of being super cheap targets of a Wild Swing if they can Panic between a couple enemies.

Ranged Army Test (@350 points): 3x Civilians, Nilfhiem, Zetacron vs 2x Mohican River Tribe, Brave Arrow, Deathwalker 9000
Again, Civvies clog, while your ranged powerhouses do the dirty work.

[IAmBatman]

Yep - they're all about board control, just like rats. I think these civilians will end up being a lot of fun. :-)

[NecroBlade]

BoV map Invasion is set up, armies are about to take the field...Civilians will be first playtested tomorrow.

[IAmBatman]

Nice. :-)

[NecroBlade]

Civilians vs Knights test 1 on Invasion:

Round 1, Knights had no trouble slaughtering civvies (well, I imagine morally they did) and blow through over a squad without losing a man.
Round 2, by the end civvies finally started doing damage to the Knights, killing two and only losing a couple more of their own.
Round 3, civvies inexplicably dismantle the remaining Knights no problem, only one more of their own falling.

As I predicted, Civilians had much better positional control and simply overwhelmed the opposition. The Knights rolled very well in the beginning, but once their dice started failing them, even the 2 (3 on height) dice from the Civilians were enough to take them out. Panic kept the Knights from killing more than a couple a turn, though it became less than useful in the late game when everyone was already at the front. Even though defensively they were still very poor, Strength in Numbers was key to their offense. Civilians also held the Move and Initiative glyphs most of the game, though only the former helped a little.

Test 2 coming soon.

[GreyOwl]

Shouldn't civilians get utterly slaughtered by a group of knights? :)

[NecroBlade]

You'd think so, but game 2 had similar results: 9 dead Civilians, but they won. A lot of it comes down to sheer numbers. There are ALWAYS Civilians in (and out of thanks to Panic) the Knights' faces, whereas the Knights have a harder time keeping up strength on the front. Also, 5 Knights go down and they're below full offensive capacity, while the Knights were never even close to achieving that against the Civilians (they'd have to kill 13). The last Knight made a brave stand on one of the map's high points, but one attack of 4 against 3 (Civilians had the Defense glyph this time, though the Knights held it early) just doesn't cut it versus four attacks of 2 against 5.

Thus far, I'm thinking a minor adjustment might be needed on the Civilians. Most likely removing Disengage from Panic. They could still keep up their numbers on the front lines, but wouldn't be able to dodge attacks/take glyphs so easily. Of course, this is only two tests in.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds good so far. :-) When you're done, make sure you compile everything into a single feedback sheet. Great work, though! I'm really starting to get excited about this card (and your suggestion of potentially removing disengage sounds like it could be a winner - thematically there's really no need for it, and in terms of gameplay the major function we wanted for panic was to help them with board control and to help them bring in reinforcements. There's not necessarily a need for disengage there, especially if they're feeling undercosted with it).

[Hahma]

Yea, taking away disengage would be good I think. Nice job Necro and great suggestion. :thumbsup:

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NecroBlade again."

[GreyOwl]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NecroBlade again."

I got him.

[IAmBatman]

Me too.

[NecroBlade]

Thanks guys. Losing Disengage will really hurt Panic, but it drastically increases their survivability as a whole beyond 35 points, IMO.

I've been sledding all day, but I'm going to try the Woo test sometime tonight.

EDIT: Woo test 1 done. Woo suffered a pretty steady 1 wound per round, but came out on top. He hopped on a high spot and 5 dice on both offense and defense vs 2 went the distance. Reminded me of this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rIl0HM6XQo
:headbang:

[NecroBlade]

Game 2, Woo came off height to pursue some Civilians after an initiative switch. Fatal error. 5 Civilians remained for the win.

[Hahma]

Thanks guys. Losing Disengage will really hurt Panic, but it drastically increases their survivability as a whole beyond 35 points, IMO.

I've been sledding all day, but I'm going to try the Woo test sometime tonight.

EDIT: Woo test 1 done. Woo suffered a pretty steady 1 wound per round, but came out on top. He hopped on a high spot and 5 dice on both offense and defense vs 2 went the distance. Reminded me of this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rIl0HM6XQo
:headbang:

Cool scene, I can picture Woo doing that to the Civilians. 8)

Game 2, Woo came off height to pursue some Civilians after an initiative switch. Fatal error. 5 Civilians remained for the win.


As feeble as their stats are, by sheer numbers they should be able to get some lucky hits in once in a while and eventually where a single hero down like that.

[Griffin]

Necro, Hama, and anyone else who is following the civies, is getting rid of disengage the best answer? Did you consider just upping the cost a tad?
Of coarse, I personally don't think they should have disengage (thematically), but I just wanted to see if you guys considered more options than just dropping a power.
Good job Necro! I wish I could rep you but apparently I can't.:?

[Hahma]

Necro, Hama, and anyone else who is following the civies, is getting rid of disengage the best answer? Did you consider just upping the cost a tad?
Of coarse, I personally don't think they should have disengage (thematically), but I just wanted to see if you guys considered more options than just dropping a power.
Good job Necro! I wish I could rep you but apparently I can't.:?


Yeah, that probably might have been the better option to try first I guess. Perhaps since Necro is in the middle of testing these guys, he can do the remainder of his tests with their powers as is but at a cost of 45 points? If they aren't great their, then maybe 40 points like the Rats would be the ending cost. Or we can all decide if we want to drop the disengage if we really don't think they should have it thematically. I personally don't care either way. I guess it depends on how much like the Rats we want them to be.

[IAmBatman]

I'm waiting to comment on this more specifically until I get a chance to play them myself. If I had to go just thematically, though, I'd probably drop the disengage. But how they play is the more important factor, IMO.
That said, the disengage is still a part of Hahma's write up of them in the second post, so we certainly haven't for sure moved past it yet. :-)

[NecroBlade]

I'd rather remove Disengage than put them at 40, making them even more like the Rats. Against Woo, Disengage kept him from killing more than 2 a turn, and that was only when they surrounded him to get all 4 attacks off. It's more a survivability issue than anything else, which is what makes the Rats so good. They'd still have no problem keeping a press of bodies wherever you needed it, though. I'm going to finish the Woo tests soon and probably do some sans Disengage, as well as a few with increased points, see which option works best.

[GreyOwl]

I agree with removing Disengage.

And since you're online Necro... GO VOTE!!! :)

[Griffin]

I'd rather remove Disengage than put them at 40, making them even more like the Rats. Against Woo, Disengage kept him from killing more than 2 a turn, and that was only when they surrounded him to get all 4 attacks off. It's more a survivability issue than anything else, which is what makes the Rats so good. They'd still have no problem keeping a press of bodies wherever you needed it, though. I'm going to finish the Woo tests soon and probably do some sans Disengage, as well as a few with increased points, see which option works best.
I trust your opinion since you have playtested them. I am with you for dropping Disengage.
Now do as GO said and go vote!

[IAmBatman]

I'd rather remove Disengage than put them at 40, making them even more like the Rats. Against Woo, Disengage kept him from killing more than 2 a turn, and that was only when they surrounded him to get all 4 attacks off. It's more a survivability issue than anything else, which is what makes the Rats so good. They'd still have no problem keeping a press of bodies wherever you needed it, though. I'm going to finish the Woo tests soon and probably do some sans Disengage, as well as a few with increased points, see which option works best.


Sounds good. I think we should wait and see your final feedback sheet and analysis and make the call based on that.

[NecroBlade]

Definitely. These are just suggestions after the first few tests.

[IAmBatman]

With playtesting set up the way it is, I really think that first test should pretty much be a "preliminary" test and we should still be open to some changes without it invalidating the results of the first test. Then we can use the second and third test to confirm the altered direction. This is more or less how things went with World's Finest, and that seemed to turn out all right. :-)

[NecroBlade]

I will be putting all this in proper playtest feedback format, but for now another quick update: I played the Civilians even better against Woo, allowing him no more than 1 kill per turn to their 3 attacks, and they won with 9 Civilians remaining. Dropping Disengage is starting to look pretty good. I don't think I could engage Woo any smarter with them than that, so without Disengage they'd have to give him at least another attack or a couple disengagement attacks (and with 50/50 odds on that, it's about as good as a 2nd attack) which would put my results more in line with my first game, and I felt that one was very balanced.

[NecroBlade]

OK, 3 more tests Civilians (sans Disengage) vs Woo complete.

Game 1: Woo wins with 1 Life remaining. Civilians went for the full 4 attacks each time and kept up the usual steady rate of wounds, but they paid for it with Disengagement attacks. (5 Attack has almost an 85% probability of hitting 2 Defense, so using Panic to move away was usually the best option.)

Game 2: Two Civilians survive to win. Woo spent a portion of this game without height, and it was his downfall again. He hit about half a dozen Disengage attacks again, but this time the Civilians were only going for 3 attacks at a time again, so they could move 2 away with Panic after the first attack.

Game 3: Same strategy for the Civilians as Game 2, only this time Woo keeps height. Though they didn't roll too well in the beginning, Woo didn't hit as may Disengagement attacks either, and a couple whiffs on Defense from Woo and 4 Civilians survive to win.

So, somehow, the Civilians ended up with better results WITHOUT Disengage. I think using the better strategy of only making 3 attacks, then using Panic to move the last 2 Civilians away helped a lot, though. I don't know if I'd call the Civilians broken WITH Disengage, but losing it certainly doesn't hurt. At least, that's my story until I do some army tests. (And I'll be going back and replaying the Knight matchup sans Disengage as well.)

[Griffin]

OK, 3 more tests Civilians (sans Disengage) vs Woo complete.

Game 1: Woo wins with 1 Life remaining. Civilians went for the full 4 attacks each time and kept up the usual steady rate of wounds, but they paid for it with Disengagement attacks. (5 Attack has almost an 85% probability of hitting 2 Defense, so using Panic to move away was usually the best option.)

Game 2: Two Civilians survive to win. Woo spent a portion of this game without height, and it was his downfall again. He hit about half a dozen Disengage attacks again, but this time the Civilians were only going for 3 attacks at a time again, so they could move 2 away with Panic after the first attack.

Game 3: Same strategy for the Civilians as Game 2, only this time Woo keeps height. Though they didn't roll too well in the beginning, Woo didn't hit as may Disengagement attacks either, and a couple whiffs on Defense from Woo and 4 Civilians survive to win.

So, somehow, the Civilians ended up with better results WITHOUT Disengage. I think using the better strategy of only making 3 attacks, then using Panic to move the last 2 Civilians away helped a lot, though. I don't know if I'd call the Civilians broken WITH Disengage, but losing it certainly doesn't hurt. At least, that's my story until I do some army tests. (And I'll be going back and replaying the Knight matchup sans Disengage as well.)
It really sounds like they might be balanced or close to it to me. After all, Squads should "usually" get the better of a Unique Hero when you have enough of them to equal the Heroes cost value.
Keep up the good work, and keep these tests coming.:)

[Hahma]

Ditto for me. :D

[IAmBatman]

Great stuff, Necro! At this point I'm solidly in favor of losing disengage from their Panic power.

[NecroBlade]

Civilians (sans DE) vs Knights Game 1:
Knights roll a lot better early on, including blocking every 3-skull attack Civilians on height throw at them. Civilians do manage to grab the Move and Initiative glyphs, though Move quickly becomes useless thanks to Crowd Movement and Panic. Eventually, the Civilians kill all the Knights on one side of the map, controlling the area around that glyph while Knights take over the other side and the Initative glyph. Knights come out on top with a full squad left.

Game 2:
Knights capture Move and Attack glyphs, thanks to winning initiative. Civilians end up taking and controlling Attack, though, thanks to Panic, and begin mowing down Knights. Knights got a big lead early, but after losing the glyph deaths are back and forth and the Civilians' numbers win the day. One full squad of Civilians win.


At this point, I am heavily in favor of removing DE from the Panic power. It made them better, perhaps too much so, but I haven't really hit a point in games without it that I was desperate for it.

[IAmBatman]

I'm going to go ahead and make that change to Panic. If anyone disagrees, they can state their case. :-) But I'm totally for it.

[Griffin]

I'm going to go ahead and make that change to Panic. If anyone disagrees, they can state their case. :-) But I'm totally for it.
I am also in favor of that change, based on the playtest results.

[IAmBatman]

Good, cuz I edited Hahma's post to remove the appropriate "not." :-)

[Hahma]

I'm going to go ahead and make that change to Panic. If anyone disagrees, they can state their case. :-) But I'm totally for it.
I am also in favor of that change, based on the playtest results.


I agree

[IAmBatman]

This is still my pick for Civilian comic art, btw: http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Civilians.jpg?t=1263978781

[NecroBlade]

Melee Test (Jotun, Civilians x3, Marcu vs Migol, Dwarves x2, X17)

Game 1: Dwarves win initiative and bring Migol with them, then skip the glyphs to use Fearless advantage against Jotun. 4 wounds in only 2 attacks. Civilians move up and destroy the offending Dwarves. Migol finds the Attack glyph, but this time Jotun blocks the Dwarf's attack. Migol leaves the glyph to kill a Civilian, and one of his 4 remaining Dwarves does the same. Panic allows the Civilian front line to stay in tact. Jotun goes around the blockade to the isolated Migol, Throwing him onto low ground and scoring 3 wounds (3 skulls, 0 shields). Migol gives him 2 wounds in return, then a Dwarf takes the Attack glyph again but his buddy fails a 5-die attack from height (1 skull, 1 shield) and Civilians Panic. Jotun, almost dead, takes some semi-high ground, fails to Throw Migol again, and Wild Swings a couple Dwarves but gets 0 skulls. Dwarves win initiative yet again, but Migol is unable to finish off Jotun despite the Attack glyph. A Dwarf on height gets the job done, and another kills a 4th Civilian. Dwarves chop up 3 more Civilians after they fail to land a single wound. On their next turn, they kill 1 Dwarf, but lose 2 (including 1 while Panicking) in return. They do Panic onto the Initiative glyph, though the game is all but over for them. Marcu takes to the skies for team Civilians, and takes a breakaway to get to high ground while Migol and the Dwarves chase him down. Marcu eats a Dwarf to regain full health, but takes 5 from Migol and another Dwarf next turn. Marcu eats the second-to-last Dwarf before being smashed by Migol's hammer. Migol then takes a high spot to wait for the last 2 Civilians, then clobbers them once they arrive. Migol (3 wounds), 1 Dwarf, and X17 (never activated) win. For game 2, I'm going to try to clog the board better before bringing in Jotun.

Game 2: Dwarves make it to the Move glyph first, which also lets them take the Attack glyph. They kill 1 Civilian before the end of the round. Civilians start the next round by killing 2 Dwarves. Migol & co. destroy 3 more Civilians, then 3 more, before Jotun finally gets a good shot, killing 3 Dwarves and a Civilian with a 4-skull Wild Swing. Migol and the only remaining Dwarf not holding a glyph destroy 2 more Civilians, who are again blocking the way to Jotun. Dwarves win initiative, and after Migol kills one of the 2 remaining Civilians, the other Panics around the Dwarf, forcing him to attack it instead of Jotun or risk leaving engagement. The Dwarf opts to kill the last Civilian. Jotun again hits Migol for 3. Migol and the Dwarf take Jotun to 1 Life in 1 turn. Jotun puts 1 more wound on Migol before dying. Marcu eats Migol after winning initiative. The ast 3 Dwarves leave their glyphs to close on Marcu, who takes 3 wounds. Marcu eats 1, then takes 2 wounds. A Dwarf blocks Marcu's next attack, then they kill him. 2 Dwarves and X17 (again not activated) win.

Game 3: I'll try to clog with the Civilians even better (they got in Jotun's way a little bit and were more collateral damage than Wild Swing chain makers).

[Griffin]

Excellent stuff Necro! I don't mind if you really want to do more playtesting, but I am not sure if you are following the new format and requirements. Be sure to read this (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28451) over if you have not already. Check out questions 4 and 7. :)

[IAmBatman]

What Griff said ...

[NecroBlade]

Oh, I know, I just prefer testing more like the old way to get a feel for the swingy-ness of the dice and any flukes.

Also, for my third game, I'm just going to run the Civilians up against the Dwarves and save Jotun completely for later. Clogging will be better for the ranged tests, and the 2/2 Civilians weren't actually that bad against the 3/3 Dwarves in the first two tests.

[Griffin]

Cool.

[NecroBlade]

Game 3: X17 decides to be useful this time and sits on the Move glyph early, while Civilians capture the Defense glyph on the other side. One Dwarf dies by the end of round 1. Next round Dwarves assault the Defense glyph and kill 2 Civilians, but they Panic to recover it. Migol comes in after another Dwarf falls and kills a Civilian, one of whom Panics onto high round. Despite keeping the Defense glyph, Civilians fall to a lot of 2- and 3-skull attacks from the Dwarves. Then they make a lot of 2-skull attacks on their own and reduce the Dwarves to 3, including removing those threatening the Defense glyph. After Migol takes out another Civilian, they use Panic to form a defensive cluster around said glyph (how's THAT for thematic use of a power?). Dwarves reduce the Civilians to 2 as Migol goes after Jotun who has started to lumber into the fray. Despite +1 Defense, Jotun rolls 0 shields and takes 2 hits. Jotun Throws Migol for 2, and only fails to flatten him thanks to One Shield Defense. Dwarves kill the last Civilians as Migol puts another wound on Jotun, but can't take the glyph until next turn. Jotun kills Migol on a whiffed defense roll. Dwarves take the Defense glyph and get ready to face Jotun next round. Jotun kills 2 Dwarves but is left at 1 Life. X17 moves in but can't finish him. Jotun opts to attack 8 vs 8 on X17, but only rolls 2 skulls which are easily blocked. Then X17 kills him. Marcu eats the lone remaining Dwarf. X17 gets first strike in the duel between him and Marcu (on height) for 2 hits, then wins initiative and scores 2 more. Marcu betrays and moves to low ground. X17 wins.

[Hahma]

Cool stuff Necro. So the Civilians did okay vs. Dwarves? Would two lower point heroes helped them better than Jotun did? It will be neat to see how they do in ranged army tests.

[IAmBatman]

I'm really more and more excited about these Civilians all the time. I'm going to hit Angel next, and then probably Cyclops, but I think Civilians are right after that for me (sorry Pyro!).

[Griffin]

Awsome Necro, thou art the man! That game sounded like a lot of fun, I especially liked the part where the Civilians banded around the Defense Glyph to protect it.
Man with all these playtesters now, things are moving along at a very nice pace.

[NecroBlade]

Yeah, that last test was definitely a good one for the Civilians. They performed as they should all around and definitely not out of their point range. A few mid-range heroes instead of Jotun would've been better, yes, but I did specifically pick an army for them to face that would be tough. And I was very pleased with the results. I expect the ranged tests to be fun as well.

[Griffin]

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian.jpg
Thug (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p103922.html)
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian2.jpg
Con-Artist (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p160566.html)
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian3.jpg
Fireman (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p161771.html)
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilians4.jpg
Mother & Son (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p161727.html)

Spidey put these up a while back, and I have looked at every single Heroclix and Horrorclix that has been created, and there just isn't any better choices than these, and these are awesome btw.

I propose that we use these figures for our 4 man squad of civilians.

[IAmBatman]

yea. I really like how the two sculpt figure lets you have a four figure squad (not game breaking) but look like it's more (to better simulate a crowd).

[NecroBlade]

I think these'll look good together. Yea.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea, gonna have to get some firemen and babysitters now!

[Griffin]

Yea, gonna have to get some firemen and babysitters now!Me too, but I am watching the cost of them a bit, so I may end up doubling up on some of the other figures. All of the figures are about 50 cents each on Trollandtoad.com, but the fireman is about 1.40. I really hate paying more than a dollar for a mini, especially for commons, but that guy works the best for us I think. And even at 1.40 per figure, that is still more than half off of what we would pay for an official figure sold at retail value.

[IAmBatman]

One vote away from making this official!

[Hahma]

Yep

[IAmBatman]

OK, good! I'll put the figure pics in the first post.

[Griffin]

What comic art does everyone want to use? There are several on the first page, but I REALLY like this one that Bats found:
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Civilians.jpg?t=1263978781

[IAmBatman]

Well, obviously, that one's the one I like as well. :-D Anybody else? If it gets more love, I'll put it in the first post as well!

[Hahma]

That picture works for me.

[NecroBlade]

Yep

~NB, Hahmaishly

[IAmBatman]

Good. Cuz I updated it. :-D

[NecroBlade]

Game 1: DW9K leads things off to fire some Explosions at the approaching Civilians (that in itself is a cool mental image) but blanks. Nilfhiem heads toward the machine but only manages to fire off an ineffective Ice Shard. DW9K starts round two with another Explosion, but 5 Civilians defend, in part thanks to Jungle cover. Civilians tie up DW9K and secure the Initiative glyph. Mohicans go after the Civilians but only destroy 1, allowing a lot of Panic movement up front, including keeping DW9K tied down. A Mohican also keeps Nilfhiem from being able to engage DW9K this turn, so he opts for taking the Move glyph and firing off a couple Ice Shards instead. One Mohican goes down but DW9K defends.Mohicans take down 2 more Civilians, but fail to hit Nilfhiem, who is then able to finally engage DW9K, but not kill him yet. Barely surviving a second attack from Nilfhiem, DW9K fires an Explosion point blank, killing 2 Civilians and putting 1 wound on Nilfhiem. Nilfhiem then finally removes the robot from his perch. Mohicans kill 2 more Civilians, who then Panic over to the Move glyph. With 8 Move, Nilfhiem is able to engage all 3 Mohicans who had taken over the hill by the Initiative glyph. Ice Shard only kills 1. Mohicans fail to put any wounds on the dragon in return, but are finally able to move Brave Arrow via War Cry. They then win Initiative, kill the Civilian on the Move glyph (another Panics to recover it), and put 3 more wounds on Nilfhiem. Brave Arrow is also able to engage him and add another wound. Nilfhiem is only able to put 1 wound on Brave Arrow before going down, along with 2 more Civilians. Mohicans take out the last 2 Civilians, then open fire on Zetacron, who avoids getting hit. Zetacron obliterates a Mohican, then engages and puts 2 wounds on Brave Arrow. Brave Arrow puts a wound on Zetacron before being finished off. Zetacron survives the return fire and kills another Mohican who just missed his Concealment roll. The last 2 Mohicans engage and destroy Zetacron.


This game was awesome, the Civilians doing a good job clogging the board and on the glyphs. I'll get all my tests in proper format soon, but I'll say it now, Civilians: Pass.

[Griffin]

Spank that Civilian Card and get her ready for bed, I think that this unit is gonna get wrapped up soon if those other tests come back positive as well. :)

[NecroBlade]

C3G X-Men Civilians Playtest Feedback

- THEME TEST/ Pass
- MIRROR TEST/Pass
- BONDING TEST/ N/A
- SYNERGIES TEST/ N/A
- POWER CHECK/ Pass

PLAY TEST LIST FOR CUSTOM UNITS
- HEAVY HERO TEST/Pass (after removal of Disengage)
Games 1-3 with Disengage
Woo test 1 done. Woo suffered a pretty steady 1 wound per round, but came out on top. He hopped on a high spot and 5 dice on both offense and defense vs 2 went the distance.

Game 2, Woo came off height to pursue some Civilians after an initiative switch. Fatal error. 5 Civilians remained for the win.

Game 3: I played the Civilians even better against Woo, allowing him no more than 1 kill per turn to their 3 attacks, and they won with 9 Civilians remaining. Dropping Disengage is starting to look pretty good. I don't think I could engage Woo any smarter with them than that, so without Disengage they'd have to give him at least another attack or a couple disengagement attacks (and with 50/50 odds on that, it's about as good as a 2nd attack) which would put my results more in line with my first game, and I felt that one was very balanced.

Game 4: Woo wins with 1 Life remaining. Civilians went for the full 4 attacks each time and kept up the usual steady rate of wounds, but they paid for it with Disengagement attacks. (5 Attack has almost an 85% probability of hitting 2 Defense, so using Panic to move away was usually the best option.)

Game 5: Two Civilians survive to win. Woo spent a portion of this game without height, and it was his downfall again. He hit about half a dozen Disengage attacks again, but this time the Civilians were only going for 3 attacks at a time again, so they could move 2 away with Panic after the first attack.

Game 6: Same strategy for the Civilians as Game 2, only this time Woo keeps height. Though they didn't roll too well in the beginning, Woo didn't hit as may Disengagement attacks either, and a couple whiffs on Defense from Woo and 4 Civilians survive to win.

So, somehow, the Civilians ended up with better results WITHOUT Disengage. I think using the better strategy of only making 3 attacks, then using Panic to move the last 2 Civilians away helped a lot, though. I don't know if I'd call the Civilians broken WITH Disengage, but losing it certainly doesn't hurt. At least, that's my story until I do some army tests. (And I'll be going back and replaying the Knight matchup sans Disengage as well.)

- SQUAD TEST/Pass (after removal of Disengage)

Civilians vs Knights test 1 on Invasion:
Round 1, Knights had no trouble slaughtering civvies (well, I imagine morally they did) and blow through over a squad without losing a man.
Round 2, by the end civvies finally started doing damage to the Knights, killing two and only losing a couple more of their own.
Round 3, civvies inexplicably dismantle the remaining Knights no problem, only one more of their own falling.

As I predicted, Civilians had much better positional control and simply overwhelmed the opposition. The Knights rolled very well in the beginning, but once their dice started failing them, even the 2 (3 on height) dice from the Civilians were enough to take them out. Panic kept the Knights from killing more than a couple a turn, though it became less than useful in the late game when everyone was already at the front. Even though defensively they were still very poor, Strength in Numbers was key to their offense. Civilians also held the Move and Initiative glyphs most of the game, though only the former helped a little.

Game 2 had similar results: 9 dead Civilians, but they won. A lot of it comes down to sheer numbers. There are ALWAYS Civilians in (and out of thanks to Panic) the Knights' faces, whereas the Knights have a harder time keeping up strength on the front. Also, 5 Knights go down and they're below full offensive capacity, while the Knights were never even close to achieving that against the Civilians (they'd have to kill 13). The last Knight made a brave stand on one of the map's high points, but one attack of 4 against 3 (Civilians had the Defense glyph this time, though the Knights held it early) just doesn't cut it versus four attacks of 2 against 5.

Civilians (sans DE) vs Knights Game 1:
Knights roll a lot better early on, including blocking every 3-skull attack Civilians on height throw at them. Civilians do manage to grab the Move and Initiative glyphs, though Move quickly becomes useless thanks to Crowd Movement and Panic. Eventually, the Civilians kill all the Knights on one side of the map, controlling the area around that glyph while Knights take over the other side and the Initative glyph. Knights come out on top with a full squad left.

Game 2:
Knights capture Move and Attack glyphs, thanks to winning initiative. Civilians end up taking and controlling Attack, though, thanks to Panic, and begin mowing down Knights. Knights got a big lead early, but after losing the glyph deaths are back and forth and the Civilians' numbers win the day. One full squad of Civilians win.

At this point, I am heavily in favor of removing DE from the Panic power. It made them better, perhaps too much so, but I haven't really hit a point in games without it that I was desperate for it.

- MELEE ARMY TEST/Pass

Melee Test (Jotun, Civilians x3, Marcu vs Migol, Dwarves x2, X17)

Game 1: Dwarves win initiative and bring Migol with them, then skip the glyphs to use Fearless advantage against Jotun. 4 wounds in only 2 attacks. Civilians move up and destroy the offending Dwarves. Migol finds the Attack glyph, but this time Jotun blocks the Dwarf's attack. Migol leaves the glyph to kill a Civilian, and one of his 4 remaining Dwarves does the same. Panic allows the Civilian front line to stay in tact. Jotun goes around the blockade to the isolated Migol, Throwing him onto low ground and scoring 3 wounds (3 skulls, 0 shields). Migol gives him 2 wounds in return, then a Dwarf takes the Attack glyph again but his buddy fails a 5-die attack from height (1 skull, 1 shield) and Civilians Panic. Jotun, almost dead, takes some semi-high ground, fails to Throw Migol again, and Wild Swings a couple Dwarves but gets 0 skulls. Dwarves win initiative yet again, but Migol is unable to finish off Jotun despite the Attack glyph. A Dwarf on height gets the job done, and another kills a 4th Civilian. Dwarves chop up 3 more Civilians after they fail to land a single wound. On their next turn, they kill 1 Dwarf, but lose 2 (including 1 while Panicking) in return. They do Panic onto the Initiative glyph, though the game is all but over for them. Marcu takes to the skies for team Civilians, and takes a breakaway to get to high ground while Migol and the Dwarves chase him down. Marcu eats a Dwarf to regain full health, but takes 5 from Migol and another Dwarf next turn. Marcu eats the second-to-last Dwarf before being smashed by Migol's hammer. Migol then takes a high spot to wait for the last 2 Civilians, then clobbers them once they arrive. Migol (3 wounds), 1 Dwarf, and X17 (never activated) win. For game 2, I'm going to try to clog the board better before bringing in Jotun.

Game 2: Dwarves make it to the Move glyph first, which also lets them take the Attack glyph. They kill 1 Civilian before the end of the round. Civilians start the next round by killing 2 Dwarves. Migol & co. destroy 3 more Civilians, then 3 more, before Jotun finally gets a good shot, killing 3 Dwarves and a Civilian with a 4-skull Wild Swing. Migol and the only remaining Dwarf not holding a glyph destroy 2 more Civilians, who are again blocking the way to Jotun. Dwarves win initiative, and after Migol kills one of the 2 remaining Civilians, the other Panics around the Dwarf, forcing him to attack it instead of Jotun or risk leaving engagement. The Dwarf opts to kill the last Civilian. Jotun again hits Migol for 3. Migol and the Dwarf take Jotun to 1 Life in 1 turn. Jotun puts 1 more wound on Migol before dying. Marcu eats Migol after winning initiative. The ast 3 Dwarves leave their glyphs to close on Marcu, who takes 3 wounds. Marcu eats 1, then takes 2 wounds. A Dwarf blocks Marcu's next attack, then they kill him. 2 Dwarves and X17 (again not activated) win.

Game 3: X17 decides to be useful this time and sits on the Move glyph early, while Civilians capture the Defense glyph on the other side. One Dwarf dies by the end of round 1. Next round Dwarves assault the Defense glyph and kill 2 Civilians, but they Panic to recover it. Migol comes in after another Dwarf falls and kills a Civilian, one of whom Panics onto high round. Despite keeping the Defense glyph, Civilians fall to a lot of 2- and 3-skull attacks from the Dwarves. Then they make a lot of 2-skull attacks on their own and reduce the Dwarves to 3, including removing those threatening the Defense glyph. After Migol takes out another Civilian, they use Panic to form a defensive cluster around said glyph (how's THAT for thematic use of a power?). Dwarves reduce the Civilians to 2 as Migol goes after Jotun who has started to lumber into the fray. Despite +1 Defense, Jotun rolls 0 shields and takes 2 hits. Jotun Throws Migol for 2, and only fails to flatten him thanks to One Shield Defense. Dwarves kill the last Civilians as Migol puts another wound on Jotun, but can't take the glyph until next turn. Jotun kills Migol on a whiffed defense roll. Dwarves take the Defense glyph and get ready to face Jotun next round. Jotun kills 2 Dwarves but is left at 1 Life. X17 moves in but can't finish him. Jotun opts to attack 8 vs 8 on X17, but only rolls 2 skulls which are easily blocked. Then X17 kills him. Marcu eats the lone remaining Dwarf. X17 gets first strike in the duel between him and Marcu (on height) for 2 hits, then wins initiative and scores 2 more. Marcu betrays and moves to low ground. X17 wins.

- RANGED ARMY TEST/Pass

Game 1: DW9K leads things off to fire some Explosions at the approaching Civilians (that in itself is a cool mental image) but blanks. Nilfhiem heads toward the machine but only manages to fire off an ineffective Ice Shard. DW9K starts round two with another Explosion, but 5 Civilians defend, in part thanks to Jungle cover. Civilians tie up DW9K and secure the Initiative glyph. Mohicans go after the Civilians but only destroy 1, allowing a lot of Panic movement up front, including keeping DW9K tied down. A Mohican also keeps Nilfhiem from being able to engage DW9K this turn, so he opts for taking the Move glyph and firing off a couple Ice Shards instead. One Mohican goes down but DW9K defends.Mohicans take down 2 more Civilians, but fail to hit Nilfhiem, who is then able to finally engage DW9K, but not kill him yet. Barely surviving a second attack from Nilfhiem, DW9K fires an Explosion point blank, killing 2 Civilians and putting 1 wound on Nilfhiem. Nilfhiem then finally removes the robot from his perch. Mohicans kill 2 more Civilians, who then Panic over to the Move glyph. With 8 Move, Nilfhiem is able to engage all 3 Mohicans who had taken over the hill by the Initiative glyph. Ice Shard only kills 1. Mohicans fail to put any wounds on the dragon in return, but are finally able to move Brave Arrow via War Cry. They then win Initiative, kill the Civilian on the Move glyph (another Panics to recover it), and put 3 more wounds on Nilfhiem. Brave Arrow is also able to engage him and add another wound. Nilfhiem is only able to put 1 wound on Brave Arrow before going down, along with 2 more Civilians. Mohicans take out the last 2 Civilians, then open fire on Zetacron, who avoids getting hit. Zetacron obliterates a Mohican, then engages and puts 2 wounds on Brave Arrow. Brave Arrow puts a wound on Zetacron before being finished off. Zetacron survives the return fire and kills another Mohican who just missed his Concealment roll. The last 2 Mohicans engage and destroy Zetacron.

This game was awesome, the Civilians doing a good job clogging the board and on the glyphs.


Results: Pass.

[Hahma]

Great stuff Necro. I'm glad no major changes were needed, they look like fun.

[NecroBlade]

Once we decided on those flavorful powers I think we set ourselves up with a real winner here. Good work everyone!

[IAmBatman]

Awesome! :-) Just to verify, that's a pass at 35 points?

[NecroBlade]

Yep, that's what they were played at the whole time. I didn't see a problem with them at that cost (they die fairly quickly under fire but they perform their function well enough), plus it's cool that they're less than 10 points/figure.

[IAmBatman]

Awesome! Just wanted to make sure so that the results I summarized in the link in the first post were accurate. :-) Sounds like these guys are a real winner.

[Hahma]

I started testing these guys and have 2 HH tests done so far. Very fun moving these guys around all over. I can see them being a real pain in the but for the opponent :twisted: Though it would be pretty crazy with both players bringing 3 squads of these guys to a game, will need some base markers for sure. It would be mass chaos and fun :D

[Griffin]

I started testing these guys and have 2 HH tests done so far. Very fun moving these guys around all over. I can see them being a real pain in the but for the opponent :twisted: Though it would be pretty crazy with both players bringing 3 squads of these guys to a game, will need some base markers for sure. It would be mass chaos and fun :D
I just bought 5 full squads (that is 20 squad figures!) from miniaturemarket.com, just in case I ever feel like doing some crazy scenarios with tons of Civilians. 8)

[Hahma]

I started testing these guys and have 2 HH tests done so far. Very fun moving these guys around all over. I can see them being a real pain in the but for the opponent :twisted: Though it would be pretty crazy with both players bringing 3 squads of these guys to a game, will need some base markers for sure. It would be mass chaos and fun :D
I just bought 5 full squads (that is 20 squad figures!) from miniaturemarket.com, just in case I ever feel like doing some crazy scenarios with tons of Civilians. 8)

That's craziness I tell you. :D

I've got three squads of these guys that I'm proxying for Civilians. I also will use them as my Street Thugs, Henchmen or whatever else comes up.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/X-MenC3G090.jpg

[Hahma]

Updated Civilians test sheet.




NAME OF THE TEST UNIT ___Civilians @ 35 points__

C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass, if not, list your Theme Check observations. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass, if not, list your Mirror Check observations. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass, if not, list your Bonding Check observations. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass, if not, list your Synergy Check observations. Pass
- Power/ Does it pass, if not, list your Power Check observations. Pass
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
(Be sure to list what official units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)
-
-Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? Pass
-Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.
-
-Test 1 Saw Civilians x 3 (105) take on Major X-17 (100)
-X-17 wins on turn 2 of round 5 and he had 2 wounds. Civs didn’t roll 2 skulls except once and didn’t roll 2 shields when defending that often. X-17 had height against some Civilians and was positioned to only allow 2 Civilians to attack/defend at equal height. His 7/8 defense was huge vs. 2 max attack of Civs and his attack 4/5 was enough to kill a Civilian with every attack. Civs Panicked until they couldn’t Panic any longer or it wasn’t feasible.
-
-Test 2 Saw Civilians x 3 (105) take on Agent Carr (100)
-9 Civilians survive to take the victory on turn 3 of round 2. Carr missed one and killed one and caused Panic with his initial 2 attacks with range but then he got height by time Civs closed in to engage him. 2 Civs were able to get to same level as Carr and made use of SIN With Carr only having single normal attacks, Civs were able to Panic when it was feasible and close in on him. He was only able to attack twice with ranged attack and killed 1 Civilian and was only able to attack twice in melee, killing 2 Civilians. Civilians swarmed all over Carr and overwhelmed him with their shear numbers. Carr could only use one attack at a time and with def 4/5 and life of 4, he didn’t last too long.
-
-Test 3 Civilians x 3 (105) take on Raelin v.2 (120)
-8 Civilians survive to take victory on turn 3 of round 2. Again, shear numbers overwhelmed their opponent. Raelin’s Whirlwind Assault was a double edged sword for her as she could attack multiple Civs, but each attack triggered Panic and brought more Civs closer to her. Eventually their numbers were too much against her 3/4 defense and her 5 lives. Civs had SIN going for them all the time and hung on to wear her down.
-
-Test 4 Civilians x 2 (70) vs. Kumiko (80)
-I finally get to see Kumiko in a situation where she gets to kick some butt, and she did to take victory with 1 wound on turn 3 of round 3. . She got to height with her move of 6 and it took a while before Civs could get to same level as her as she was up two levels with from them and those Civs were up two levels from ground. She attacked up to 3 times and it was with Ninjitsu Barrage Special Attack and it bypassed Panic so Civs couldn’t get help to move up to her level. She was able to split Civilians at times with her first attack killing them, so the next Civ didn’t have SIN bonus for defense. She was really a good counter for them.
-.
-Test 5 Civilians x 2 (70) take on Johnny “Shotgun” Sullivan (65).

Shotgun Sullivan survived to take victory with 2 wounds on turn 5 of round 2. He killed one with his normal attack at range of 7 and caused Panic. Civilians moved but stayed apart so as not to be targets of Shotgun Special Attack (at least for now). Then he got he got height and attacked nearest Civ with Shotgun SA and missed the lone Civ. They swarmed him and only two could get to same level as Johnny, but he was able to take out multiple Civs with Shotgun SA and once central targeted Civ was killed, sometimes it left another one vulnerable without SIN bonus for defense. He could also be a good counter for Civilians. Another good counter at the squad level would be Gladiatrons with their Cyber Claw not allowing them to move by Panic.



-Squad/ Does it pass? Pass
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh

Test 1 Civilians x 2 (70) vs. 4th Mass x 1 (70)

Four 4th Mass survive to win on turn 1 of round 2. They headed for high ground early and waited for Civilians to come to them and decimated them with Wait and Fire. Valiant Army Bonus and height helped the 4th survive the overwhelming onslaught of Civilians. Panic certainly helped Civilians move and swarm, but vs. ranged units with height and other defense bonus making the 4th 4att/4def units, the Civilians didn’t have a chance.

Test 2 Civilians x 2 (70) vs. 4th Mass x1 (70)

4 Civilians survive to win on turn 1 of round 2. This time the Civilians forced the 4th Mass to come to them and not have height bonus or Wait and Fire bonus as often. This time shear numbers prevailed when the 4th didn’t have just about everything going for them in optimal conditions.

Test 3 Civilians x 2 (70) vs. Heavy Gruts x 1 (70)

1 Heavy Grut survives to win on turn 5 of round 3. The Orcs were able to beat the Civilians to high ground with their better move and nobody forcing the Civilians to Panic and move. The Orcs had the height advantage for the most part as even when there was a space open, the Civilians couldn’t move up two levels and then another two levels to get adjacent and same level as top Orcs in one turn. They couldn’t climb from the other side because it was 4 levels straight up and they only have height of 4. Orcs tried to plan their attack order so that they could separate Civilians when possible and if the first one was killed another wouldn’t have Strength In Numbers, though the Civilians Panicked to fill the space after the first attack if possible. Had the Civilians had the same position as the Orcs, I’m confident that they would have prevailed with possible attack and defense of 3 each when combined with SIN. Didn’t do re-test with Civilians at height advantage since this one was really close and Civilians could have won this one even had the dice been more favorable.

- Melee Army/ Does it pass? Pass
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.

-Civilians x 2 (70) Hawkgirl (225) Moriko (110) and Kozuke Samurai (100) for 505 points.

They went against Tor-Kul-Na (220) Catwoman (145) and Heavy Gruts x 2 (140) for 505 points.

Hawkgirl with 1 wound, Moriko with 0 wounds and 5 Civilians survive to win on turn 4 of round 6.

Early on the Civilian moved in a pincer formation, but didn’t hurry and allowed Moriko and Kozuke to keep up. Tor-Kul-Na was too worried about the Civilians swarming him that he moved one space too far, which allowed all three Kozuke to reach him in round two with Charging Assault and put 4 wounds on him. He failed to Stomp on first two attempts and finally Stomped a Samurai and killed a Civilian. Orcs were close by in support by now and were finishing off the Samurai and attacking Civilians on left side. Civilians on right side had made it to height and sat on top of the hill content to wait for Orcs to have the disadvantage if they wanted to attack them. Meanwhile, Moriko put final two wounds on Tor-Kul-Na and Catwoman had bad luck with her Whip vs. Moriko. Hawkgirl ignored Catwoman and got double attack on Orcs on two occasions due to them being far enough away. She killed 4 Orcs with 4 attacks. Orcs killed a couple Civilians on left side and sent the 4th one of squad running for his life with Panic. Other squad of Civilians were happy to watch the battle from the top of the hill. Catwoman continued to attempt to Whip both Moriko and Hawkgirl, but her Whip attack rolls were horrible at first with 1, 2, 1 and 1 skulls. She finally rolled 3 skulls and put 1 wound on Hawkgirl and rolled 3 skulls on second attempt, but Hawkgirl rolled 3 shields. Hawkgirl had gotten height after Swooping from 4 spaces and rolled a single huge attack figuring that a second attack would be wasted if Catwoman Strayed. There was no Straying and Hawkgirl put a quick 4 wounds on Catwoman. Eventually, there was only 1 Orc and Catwoman with 4 wounds, then Hawkgirl managed to Swoop 2 spaces and roll 6 skulls on 7 attack dice. Catwoman didn’t Stray again and whiffed on her defense to take all 6 wounds from the wicked mace wielder. The other Orc went down quickly after that .

Civilians didn’t play too much part in this battle after the initial clogging of things up and using their tie-up potential to distract opponent. Their Panic helped get others to height before Orcs could have as the two squads weren’t too far away from each other but separated by a river. The Civilians mass movement and Panic allowed Unique Heroes move and keep up without feeling like wasting OM’s where you normally want to use them on more offensive commons to get the multiple attacks. This helped in allowing Moriko and Hawkgirl get in battle relatively quickly and do tons of damage with their multiple attacks and Hawkgirl’s really super heavy attacks. I’m kind of wondering after this if the Civilians might need to be bumped up to 40 points, as they can allow for really good team combos and do their job relatively cheaply at 35 points. Perhaps things will be different in Ranged Army test to show them more as 35 point guys.

-Ranged Army/ Does it pass? Pass
-Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh. Used Glyph of Astrid (att+1) and Glyph of Gerda (def+1) Tested Civilians at 40 points

Civilians x 3 (120) Wolves of Badru x2 (160) Q10 (150) and Kravs (100) for 530 points.

They went against Batman (200) Green Arrow (150) and Stingers x 3 (180) for 530 points.

Civilians moved out first and moved in groups of 4 toward glyphs in opposite corners of map. Stingers came out but didn't have range to attack. Kravs came out to support Civilians headed toward glyph of Gerda. Green Arrow moved and wanted to use Skill Shot vs. a Krav but only rolled a 1 on the d20 (that happens too much to me when using him). Q10 moves to support Civilians going for glyph of Astrid but can't attack. Stingers capture glyph of Gerda and kill lead Civilian, causing Panic.

Stingers kill a Krav and Civilian, causing yet more Panic. Krav kill Stinger on glyph of Gerda and one other. Green Arrow seeks redemption for his previous miss fire and wants to try out his new Explosive Arrow on a nice pack of Civilians. He rolls 2 skulls and misses the targeted figure, but kills the 4 Civilians surrounding him. No Panic vs. Special attack, their too stunned. But Q10 makes Green Arrow pay, after missing with his first rocket attack, he rolls 4 skulls to GA's 0 shields and kills the green one. The battle rages on with stingers putting a couple wounds on Q10 and Civilians continue toward glyphs, but in no hurry apparently as they are kind of afraid of getting killed.

Civilians Killed one Stinger and eventually grabbed the glyph of Gerda, which they held until near the end of the game. Batman had been activated in round 3 and made use of his Batarangs, killing Civilians and Q10 as well. Batarangs don't cause panic and even being only att3, they did a bang up job vs. Civilians, and Evasive Strike did well vs. Wolves of Badru (killing 3 of them that way). Eventually the Kravs whittled down the Stingers and Batman faced off vs. the last Krav and 2 Wolves, there were also a few Civilians huddled on the glyph of Gerda. After getting nowhere vs. the Krav and Wolves. Bats Grappled over river to Batarang Civilian on Glyph that helped bump Krav and Wolves' defense. He killed all but one Civilian. Bats had height and one wound, but the last 2 Wolves were going to gamble and one of them Pounced across the river and rolled 4 skulls. Bats missed ES and rolled only 1 shield, so he took exactly three wounds to kill him. The last Krav eventually killed the last Stinger.

It went to turn 5 of round 8, but 1 Krav, 2 Wolves of Badru and 1 Civilian survive for victory.

Analysis:These guys can do really good in some circumstances and be okay in others. Ranged squads will gladly let them Panic if they get a couple kills each time and special attacks (ranged and melee) don't cause Panic, so those counters can slow the Civilians down some. Unlike the Deathreavers, the Civilians are best used in groups to take advantage of SIN, but those groups make them easy prey for the opponent. Deathreavers have better defense all the time and can Scatter without facing leaving engagement attacks. Their attack isn't as good as the Civilians, but I think you can get more out of 2 squads of Deathreavers than you can with 2 squads of Civilians.Civilians in larger numbers would likely make them more effective.

I'd probably suggest they get bumped up to 40-45 point range.

[Hahma]

Just thought I'd add a couple pix for fun.

Civilians (proxies) take on X-17

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Civilianspix001.jpg


Civilians (proxies) take on Kumiko

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Civilianspix002.jpg


In both tests, defenders had good position and did well vs. Civilians. It was fun to get these units some playing time and see what Kumiko can do as she's been disappointing in other tests.

[Griffin]

It is nice to see Kumiko shine. Thanks for the pix too, I love visuals. :)

[IAmBatman]

Awesome stuff, Hahma! I linked this to the first post. :-)

[Hahma]

I updated my Civilian test sheet in earlier post. Just have ranged army test to do.

[IAmBatman]

Awesome. So you're feeling 35-40 right now?

[Hahma]

Yeah, so far. But I think after the ranged army test and another complete test sheet we'll have a better idea. They are kind of hard to tell exactly how they affect everything, so I'll have to have some special attack ranged units in the mix to see how they do. Either way, they can run interference for your other units at a relative low price. I imagine there would be a pretty good difference between having just two squads and having a third which can just move all over the place with 8 out of 12 choices instead of just 8 out of 8 on their move.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah. I think the biggest question is how do they compare to rats? If they're as good as rats or worth slightly less, then I think a bump to 40 is warranted - especially since rats are like A+.

[Hahma]

Yeah. I think the biggest question is how do they compare to rats? If they're as good as rats or worth slightly less, then I think a bump to 40 is warranted - especially since rats are like A+.


Right. These guys don't survive like Rats, but their 8 movement with 4 attacks that don't even have to be the ones that move (most effective with 3 or more squads), is pretty awesome. They don't disengage safely in Panic but can still hang around and bug opponent. They do have better attack when having SIN. Though that could also put them in pretty bad positions for area effect special attacks like Zelrig (who would be a good counter on first two turns of round) or Pyro. So I think in large numbers they could be more effective. I don't know if we want them as highly rated as Rats, otherwise they'll be in every army and be really annoying. :x Can you imagine 3 squads of Civilians and 2 squads of Rats? Ouch!:twisted::D

[IAmBatman]

Oh, I definitely don't want them as effective as rats either - which is why if they compare favorably to the rats they should be at least as expensive, if not more!

[Griffin]

Yeah. I think the biggest question is how do they compare to rats? If they're as good as rats or worth slightly less, then I think a bump to 40 is warranted - especially since rats are like A+.
I started playtesting last night, and I will finish tonight, but I can tell you from my point of view that I think they are slightly better than the rats. Mainly because of their crowd movement. Their ability to dominate board control is much more efficient than the rats. Now their defense is usually half that of a rat (because of SIN) but their attack is also double that of a rat. I am thinking they may be worth 50 or 45 points, but no less than 45 for sure. I am gonna finish my play tests out at 50 points though, that is what my results and instincts are telling me to do. Just so you guys know, they beat the $4!% out of the Heavy Hitters that costed 140 points, and that was 4 squads of them, but at the most, only 3 squads were ever activated.

[Griffin]

I was gonna do Drones as my Squad test, but now I think I wanna do Zombies instead! I wanna see some zombie plague action on the board! 8)

[Hahma]

They're not quite as effective vs. special attacks, especially ranged ones. Shotgun Sullivan did pretty good against them. Zelrig could wipe out a boatload of them in one attack. Ranged Area of Effect Special Attacks might counter them pretty well. Heck, the Q's can use low attack specials against them too. Shoot the ones that leave another one alone and they go down pretty good w/o SIN.

I'll see after ranged army test. But I'm leaning for them to be for sure more than 35. 40-45, with 45 more likely but I don't know about 50.

[IAmBatman]

40-45 is sounding like the right range, everyone's tests considered thus far.

[Griffin]

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Civilians

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? YES
TEST 1
Map: Badru Valley
Units: x4 Civilians VS Wosaga
Wosaga was a bit of a bad match up against squads because he has no special or multiple attacks. By round 2 the Civilians had him cornered and pinned down with some height advantage and always utilizing their SIN power along with their Panic ability, that they really didn't need.
Civilians win with only loosing 3 men.

TEST 2
Map: Badru Valley
Units: x4 Civilians VS Major Q10
Q10 had a hard time getting his Machine Pistol to warm up, and by the time he was able to finally kill 3 figures in one turn, he already had 2 wounds on him. He was not able to get height due to his double base non flying nature, but he was able to take down a squad and a half before succoming to 4 attacks of either 2 or 3. Half of the civilians attacks were on height, but they always had SIN boosting their attacks and defense.
Civilians win, loosing 1 and a half squads total.

TEST 3
Map: Badru Valley
Units: x4 Civilians VS Deathwalker 8000
DW was able to find a single raised hex that had no height advantages for the melee attacking Civilians. The Civilians tried hiding behind trees as they approached the robot. DW whiffed on his SA so he lost his opportunity to avoid the first wave of attackers. Civilians rush in and surround DW but could not put a dent in his defense of 8 that was now 9 due to the height advantage that he would maintain for the entire game. DW in one turn killed 5 men before running out of targets, but the clever humans were hiding behind some trees and surrounded him once again. This continued on for 6 rounds until DW finally failed his defense against a roll of 2 skulls and died.
Civilians win, loosing 2 squads total.

TEST 4
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Civilians VS Othkurik
The Black Dragon covered half of the board in one move, and waited by a still pond as he listened to the murmering of the nearby humans. The men finally gathered the courage necessary and revealed themselves to the Dragon by fanning out and covering the entire battlefield. They did this to avoid the Black Dragons Acid spray, but they also knowingly gave up their SIN. Othurik took flight and killed one human, but was not positioned to avoid the oncoming onslaught of angry men who just watched one of their brothers get eaten by this foul beast. The men surrounded Othkurik as they so easily and often do, and attacked him from same height and height disadvantage. Two wounds, one wound, two wounds, and the Dragon was killed in one raging assault by the panic and adrenaline pumping humans.
Civilians win with only loosing one Man.

TEST 5
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Civilians VS Zelrig
Zelrig moves up as do the humans, but they scatter in every direction in hopes of avoiding the napalm that this dragon brings with his breath. Zelrig takes a great location to perch from, and with his incredible range of 7, toasts a group of 3 humans in their start zone. Humans realize now that they do not have the luxury of trying to fight defensively, if they want to survive, they must attack attack attack! So the Humans move in and manage to put one wound on the Z-wing. But Zelrig fires back removing 3 more men from his sight. This continues on to the 4th round and Zelrig takes his 5th wound, putting him one from death, but since the last two humans who inflicted that wound needed their SIN to do so, he was able to toast them with his SA for the win.
Zelrig wins with 5 wounds.

- Squad/ Does it pass? YES :zombiesmile:
Map: Badru Valley
Units: x6 Civilians VS x4 Zombies
The Zombies pressed the battlefield, but not as fast as the Civilians did. Soon the town was knee deep in coagulated blood and freshly released urine. The Humans made a valiant effort through the first hour of the night, but soon, the Zombie Plague infection broke out... And things began to turn… green that is.
So the Humans had the high ground on both sides, which was paying off, until one of them turned into a Zombie. Then that zombie bit another human, and that zombie bit another, until before you know it, the hill was taken over, and all of the 5 zombies that had been killed, had now returned.
With almost two squads of men gone, and their hill taken over by zombies, the men ran to the next hill to reestablish their stronghold. They left 2 men behind in their exodus… they would never see them again. At the new fort, things were looking good to the men, they had clear paths to all sides of the mountain, they had close to a dozen men inside and a few men outside protecting the entrance. Every once in a while a zombie or two from the nearby woods would shamble towards the base of the men’s keep. When this happened, a squad of 4 men would lob the monster’s head off from on height. Things were finally looking good.
Meanwhile, over at the old base, one of the men that was left behind was now a flesh eating zombie, but the other man was quite alive. He had stayed there when the others had left, and did all that he could to block the road and keep the zombies from following his old comrades. Even though he did not survive, he died an honorable death, unfortunately, it is one that will never be told.
With the Zombies now ready to move against the new base that the men had formed, they began to march towards the fort, but they were cut off by the outside patrol. Two men jumped up from behind a rock and took a zombie’s head, while the other two came crashing down from the hill. At that point, two zombies rose up from the water-bed and grabbed the two men that came down the hill, one was able to guard against their attack in time, but other one became one of the undead. Unwilling to his friend counted amongst the ranks of the defiling cannibals, the friend cut his buddies throat while the rest of the men surrounded the zombies and took height.
One of the men that was on a crucial point in the road, was all that was standing in the zombies way of entering into the encampment. The savages surround the man on almost all sides and with a collaborative effort, they took him down together and made him one of their own.
Now the men’s numbers have dwindled down to two men, and things are not looking so good. With the courage to take initiative and attack, the two men ran outside and rushed into the mob of zombies and cut two of them down, but they were now stuck in the middle of a swarm of zombies. The zombies ensured at least one kill by using their onslaught ability on one man, forcing the last survivor to realize how alone he really was. When he could, he fought back, but without the strength of numbers from his own people, the last man was not very effective. The last man standing was soon not standing at all… he was limping… and moaning… “unhhhh… BRAINS!”
Zombies win with only 4 killed... I mean dead.... undead?... unundead?... 4 zombies not in play! :D This was soooo much fun!

- Melee Based Army/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Badru Valley
Units: x3 Civilians, Raelin, Taelord, and Captain America VS Superman and Batman (I considered both armies to be melee based since only 200 points worth were ranged for both armies, Cap being 220 actually.)
Raelin takes a single hex, Superman moves up. Taelord takes a single hex, and then Superman punches Raelin for two wounds. That triggered the civilians to move up and block for Taelord. Civilians then surround Raelin and Superman, and using Taelord's attack bonus along with SIN, the Civies put one wound on Superman with an attack of 3 skulls. Superman attacks Raelin and gives her one more wound. Next round Batman advances, Then Captain moves up between Raelin and Taelord, and is also adjacent to several Civilians giving them the Tactician boost and the SIN boost because he is a Human. Cap gives Superman 1 wound with his shield throw. Batman moves up again this time missing Raelin with a batarang but taking out 2 Civilians in the process. Cap then shield throws at Superman and misses, then at Batman and gets the E-Strike 15. Superman punches Raelin again, and this time he rolled 4 skulls. Raelin dies but a Civilian takes her place. The Civilians now have Superman surrounded and one has approached Batman. All the Civilians fail against Superman except for one. The one Civilian had height advantage, Taelord's boost, Cap's boost, and SIN boost, for a total of 5 attack dice. That Civilian rolled 5 skulls! Superman blocked 3, which put him at a total of now 4 wounds on his card. Next round Batman got initiative and put another wound on Captain, and took out two more Civilians. Then Captain took that height position that the Civilian had just lost and rolled 8 attack dice on Superman. That was 6 plus 1 for height, plus 1 for Taelord. He rolled 5 skulls and superman took 2 of them, putting the Man of Steel one away from death. Batman managed to finish off a couple more Civilians and Captain America that next turn with 3 precise Batarangs! Then, unexpectantly, the Civilians surrounded Sueprman again with the one on height, and with SIN, and with Taelord, and they managed to give him one last wound. One other Civilian managed to attack Batman and give him one wound. Next round Batman takes the height position and killed the last of the Civilians and put 2 wounds on Taelord. Then Taelord, all alone, engaged the Batman who had height, and managed to give him two wounds, putting Batman 1 away from death. Then Batman, on height, rolled 6 attack dice, and four of them were skulls. Taelord blocked two of them, taking 2 wounds and putting him one away from death. Next round Taelord got initiative and attacked Batman, then Batman rolled an 18 for Evasive Strike, killing Taelord once and for all.
Batman wins with 3 wounds.

- Ranged Based Army/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Badru Valley
Units: x3 Civilians, Captain America, and Iron Man VS x3 Cops, Black Canary, and Green Arrow
BC takes one side of the battlefield, while GA takes the Other. Meanwhile the Captain and IronMan have created a huddle with lots of Civilians surrounding them. The Cops move up next to GA and BC, they were ready to give their lives if they had to. IronMan shot out at BC and would have landed 4 wounds if it were not for a cop that took the bullet. Ironman attacked her again but missed. BC in retaliation, hooked around the pond that separated the two armies, and took to a hill where she screamed and killed a Civilian and wounded Captain A with two points of damage. The Civilians then rushed in and surrounded Canary, but that was about all they did. GA rolled a skill shot of 18 and dropped IronMan down by two wounds. Captain A jumped into the lake and threw his shield smashing into a nearby officer, missing Canary and targeting GA only to have a cop jump in the way and take the damage himself. The Cops advanced again, but this time they took the lives of 2 Civilians. When IronMan took flight next round, he locked in on GA who was all alone and put two wounds on him with the first and second attack combined. Black Canary engaged Captain A and attacked him with fists of fury. She rolled 3 skulls, and landed one wound. When she attacked the second time, she rolled 3 skulls again but this time Cap rolled 4 shields, however, there was a cop next to BC and he gave his life to protect hers against the unblockable hit of counterstrike. Then Canary rolled 4 skulls for the victory over Captain America. The Civilians advanced the entire time she was attacking with her normal attack, but they were careful not to engage her while she was rolling 3 skulls. IronMan flew over to where he could see both GA and BC and then he finished off GA who even had the height advantage. BC screamed across the mountain killing several Civies. Iron Man took the high ground and blasted towards Canary but failed both times. When Canary got initiative in the next round, she screamed again with her Canary Cry and killed a couple more Civilians and even got Iron Man down to one life point left. The Civilians were holding Canary down, blocking for Ironman so that no one could get to him, and they were also utilizing their SIN with each other and with IronMan who is also human as they had done earlier with Captain America. Cops ran in firing until there were only two Civies left, but the Civies also took some cops down with them. What the civies would do is after the cops had moved, each time they attacked a Civie, the Civies would use Panic to run out of harms way from the other Cops. One squad of cops eventually took out the two Civies after several attempts though. But IronMan was just too tough. One officer was able to get the height on IronMan only once, it just wasn't enough.
IronMan wins with 3 wounds.

Before when the civilians were priced at 35 points, I felt that they were severely undercosted. However, after bumping their cost up to a mere 40 points I feel that they are much closer to being balanced. I would like to add that because of their superior movement and board control capabilities, and because of their potentially better attacks than the Death Reavers, I really believe that they are slightly better than the Death Reavers. There are so many squads and heroes in the game of Heroscape that are Human, that this squad of Civies has a much better chance of being an offensive threat in the right army build than the DeathReavers could ever hope for. I think that they should be priced at 45 points IMO.

[Griffin]

OK, I just finished my squad test for Civilians. I priced the Civilians at 40 points as was suggested and ran 6 squads of Civilians against x4 Zombies of Morrindan. Now before I post my results, I am curious if anyone can guess what the result was... any takers? Come on, just guess!

[Adam Souza]

The zombies were left on the board at full strength after eating all those tasty civilians ?

[IAmBatman]

I agree with Adam. :-) Civvies probably killed quite a few, but they came back ...

[Griffin]

You guys can find out in my updated Feedback sheet. :zombiesmile:

[Hahma]

Looks like that zombie battle was pretty fun Griff. :zombie::D

Bats, I have finished the ranged army test for Civilians and updated test sheet on post #150.

[IAmBatman]

I agree after reading results so far that they need a bump in cost. 40 is probably about right (they're like the rats, but different). We'll wait on Griff to finish the last test, though, and to hear comments from others (Necro in particular).

[NecroBlade]

I haven't seen anything that makes them look horrible at 35 yet. :shrug:

[IAmBatman]

That, for instance, was important input! :-P
Hmm ... so if we have two playtesters saying 40 or higher, and one saying 35, how do we resolve this?

[Griffin]

I just updated my results for the Melee Army test.
That, for instance, was important input!
Hmm ... so if we have two playtesters saying 40 or higher, and one saying 35, how do we resolve this?Majority rules. :p

[IAmBatman]

True, but not a majority of 2. :-P

[Griffin]

Put your tongue back in your mouth and go read my feedback sheet. :p

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Griff, can you give us a post # for your feed back sheet?

[IAmBatman]

The in progress playtests and finished playtests are being linked to the first posts. So you can find the link there. :-)

[Griffin]

Griff, can you give us a post # for your feed back sheet?
It is one page back, also found on the front page. Here you go anyway, cause I am a nice guy. :D LINK (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1001711&postcount=164)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Playtest sheets are linked on the first page of threads? :shock:

Man, that means I am gonna have to be re-reading first posts now! I have a hard enough time keeping up with the massive rate you, GO, and Bats can post new comments, now I gotta check old ones too?!? Are you trying to kill me?

[IAmBatman]

Lol - just trying to make it easier for everyone to find the most relevant stuff more easily. All I'm adding to the first posts are links to playtesting and the changes we make on any of these units.

[Griffin]

My feedback sheet is now finished for the Civilians. :D

[Hahma]

I haven't seen anything that makes them look horrible at 35 yet. :shrug:



I think the Civilians aren't going to or should be as good as the Rats. I don't think they should be very good as fillers with one or two squads. I believe they get really dangerous and valuable from 3 or more squads, probably 4 is optimal really IMO, for once they get below 8 figures, their movement powers become less valuable. So if they were priced at 35, that would make 4 squads available for only 140 points and that would be sick, or even 5 squads at 175 points.

I think they should be at least 40 and possibly 45 so that you can still get three squads for 120/135 or four for 160/180. 4 squads at 180 is like 3 squads of Stingers and 16 figures vs 9 figures. Stingers are pretty highly rated I believe and I don't know if we want to have Civilians rated too high and replace Rats.

[Griffin]

I haven't seen anything that makes them look horrible at 35 yet. :shrug:



I think the Civilians aren't going to or should be as good as the Rats. I don't think they should be very good as fillers with one or two squads. I believe they get really dangerous and valuable from 3 or more squads, probably 4 is optimal really IMO, for once they get below 8 figures, their movement powers become less valuable. So if they were priced at 35, that would make 4 squads available for only 140 points and that would be sick, or even 5 squads at 175 points.

I think they should be at least 40 and possibly 45 so that you can still get three squads for 120/135 or four for 160/180. 4 squads at 180 is like 3 squads of Stingers and 16 figures vs 9 figures. Stingers are pretty highly rated I believe and I don't know if we want to have Civilians rated too high and replace Rats.
Honestly, right now they are better than the rats at 40 points. Sure the rats have a better defense, but the Civies make up for that with their better movement, their potential for better attacks, their board control, and the abundance of synergy that they have and will have with all humans. I really think that they should be 45.

[Hahma]

I haven't seen anything that makes them look horrible at 35 yet. :shrug:



I think the Civilians aren't going to or should be as good as the Rats. I don't think they should be very good as fillers with one or two squads. I believe they get really dangerous and valuable from 3 or more squads, probably 4 is optimal really IMO, for once they get below 8 figures, their movement powers become less valuable. So if they were priced at 35, that would make 4 squads available for only 140 points and that would be sick, or even 5 squads at 175 points.

I think they should be at least 40 and possibly 45 so that you can still get three squads for 120/135 or four for 160/180. 4 squads at 180 is like 3 squads of Stingers and 16 figures vs 9 figures. Stingers are pretty highly rated I believe and I don't know if we want to have Civilians rated too high and replace Rats.
Honestly, right now they are better than the rats at 40 points. Sure the rats have a better defense, but the Civies make up for that with their better movement, their potential for better attacks, their board control, and the abundance of synergy that they have and will have with all humans. I really think that they should be 45.


I can live with 45.

I don't think they are better than the Rats in small doses. Meaning that I think that I think the value of Rats is better if you are only going to have 1 or 2 squads, but the Civilians are better at 3 squads and beyond IMO.

[Griffin]

You might be right about that, one squad of rats is definitely more effective than one squad of Civilians. But I think that because of the Civilians effectiveness in multiple squads, we should raise their cost that little bit extra.
I could live with 40 too if I had to, but no way would I vote yes to 35.

[NecroBlade]

Without Disengage and 2 more Defense, I don't think I'd say the Civilians are better at board control. When it comes to getting bodies to the right area of the board, sure, thanks to Crowd Movement. But when it comes to actually holding a figure or glyph down, I'd go with Rats.

But, you guys have won me over to 40 points.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds like 40 is our floor and 45 is our ceiling right now. I'll let more debate go on this one (I think it's necessary) before we vote on this.

[GreyOwl]

43 ? :)

[IAmBatman]

Ha! 42.5?

[NecroBlade]

Ehhhh....I can go 41...

~NB, watching too much Pawn Stars

[GreyOwl]

So we compromise at 42. Done! :)

[IAmBatman]

I think the question we should be asking isn't - are these better than Rats? or even are these as good as Rats? It's are these close to as good as Rats?
Because, honestly, even if the answer to the last one is "yes" then we should think hard about 45. I don't want to come out with a custom unit as effective as the A+ rats.

[GreyOwl]

The way I see it, the actual cost is between 40 and 45. Since we're not (seriously) going to pick a cost in there, the question to ask is "do we want them to be slightly undercosted or slightly overcosted?" I think in this case, I'd go with slightly overcosted because, well...they're Civilians. It doesn't seem right that you get more than you bargained for with a bunch of Civilians, especially in an army of superheroes. So my vote is to go with 45.


I don't want to come out with a custom unit as effective as the A+ rats.

Why not? What would be wrong with that?

[NecroBlade]

They're definitely not better than the Rats. They may be close, but I don't think they're quite as good either. Sure they can kill stuff better, but they die a heck of a lot easier, too.

1 Attack (via SiN) -> 2 Defense (3 if no SiN)
Crowd Movement -> 2 Move
???????????????? -> Disengage

[IAmBatman]

I don't want to come out with a custom unit as effective as the A+ rats.

Why not? What would be wrong with that?

What's the number one complaint people have against using custom figures? That they're broken or overpowered/undercosted. This is something I want to avoid at all costs. If we have a unit as effective as the Rats (who are an A+ unit in the metagame), then I think we're treading a real fine line there.
There are really no better units in the game right now than the Rats or Raelin. I think even the official designers are reluctant to put out more units as effective as those two at this point. So I think we should be even more reluctant to.
As for the rest of your points, I 100% agree. Sounds like we have at least four likely votes for 45 points, so I'm going to go ahead and propose we finalize the civilians at 45 points.

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Hahma]

yea

[Griffin]

I think the question we should be asking isn't - are these better than Rats? or even are these as good as Rats? It's are these close to as good as Rats?
Because, honestly, even if the answer to the last one is "yes" then we should think hard about 45. I don't want to come out with a custom unit as effective as the A+ rats.Yea
Good points. I think 45 is that safety net to make sure that we do not create a unit as good or better than those freaking Rats. :?

~ The quota for use of the term "Freaking" has been met for the day, my work here is done.

[NecroBlade]

Nay. My tests showed them pretty reasonable at 35 points. I could get behind a 5-point bump from there, but not a 10-point one.

[IAmBatman]

All right, so that's 4 yeas and 1 nay with us still waiting to hear from Spidey, Balantai, and Whitestuff.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Can I just say how Ironic I find it that Necro, the usual voice of reason, is the one reasoning for a lower cost? That being said, I will back him. Nay for now.

[GreyOwl]

~ The quota for use of the term "Freaking" has been met for the day, my work here is done.

Maybe for you, but not for me. No freaking way. :p

[NecroBlade]

Can I just say how Ironic I find it that Necro, the usual voice of reason, is the one reasoning for a lower cost? That being said, I will back him. Nay for now.
If you think 40 is unreasonable, feel free to make that last yea at 45. I just don't feel that's the case.

[IAmBatman]

No worries. I don't feel the need to try to influence anyone's vote. We'll just keep the vote open until it's decided - even if it requires a tie breaker.
If enough people dislike 45, we'll try again at 40 or something else. :-)

[Griffin]

It will be sorta fun to have a split vote once again, then the Sidekicks can decide to go 45 or not.

[IAmBatman]

Well a yea from Balantai or Whitestuff would still pass them at 45.

[Griffin]

Well a yea from Balantai or Whitestuff would still pass them at 45.
Is that intended to be subliminal? :shock:

[GreyOwl]

Yea, I think it was.

[IAmBatman]

Well a yea from Balantai or Whitestuff would still pass them at 45.
Is that intended to be subliminal? :shock:

I'll leave that for the sub-sub forums ...

[IAmBatman]

I think Balantai is going to tease us by posting everywhere but here tonight ... :-P

[Griffin]

You wanna suggest Balantai's sub name to be "post-tease"? :lol:

[IAmBatman]

Oye. I don't think I'm into this whole title thing like some of you guys are. :-P Though I do enjoy my current one quite a bit.

[Griffin]

Oye. I don't think I'm into this whole title thing like some of you guys are. :-P Though I do enjoy my current one quite a bit.
That's what she said. :lol:

[Balantai]

To be honest, I'm undecided. I've read the battle reports and Necro seems to have as good a feel as Bats and Griff. If you're forcing me to vote, I'd vote Nay as I think 40 points is a good compromise between all the playtests. Necro seems pretty adamant about not having them at 45 points and that's something I don't want to take lightly.

[IAmBatman]

No worries. :-) The vote moves to Whitestuff's control.

[Griffin]

This is so much fun!

My prediction is that 45 will pass with WhiteStuff voting yea.

[IAmBatman]

Someone might want to give him a pm so he knows to look in here. With his being on upsidedown time and all, this might escape his notice. :-)

[NecroBlade]

I'd throw up a pic of a whitestuff signal, but I don't think any of them would be forum appropriate.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah ... if you're throwing up whitestuff ... well ... oye ... there's no way to safely finish that sentence. :-P

[NecroBlade]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gawker/2009/06/stuff-white-ppl-like.jpg

[Balantai]

@Necro:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NecroBlade again.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I know. I have repped every non-C3G person I have seen make any kind of decnet comment in here (jk) and I still can't rep Necro or Greyowl! :mad:

[GreyOwl]

Same here... I can't seem to rep any of you, either. I need to spend more time outside of the C3G boards.....but I don't want to. :)

[IAmBatman]

I think we're at the point where everyone is starting to come to us anyway ... (at least for the moment).

[NecroBlade]

Have your big cockles developed their own gravitational pull?

[IAmBatman]

Nah, they just wanna come and see the member of the year until a new one is crowned. :-P

[Griffin]

Have your big cockles developed their own gravitational pull?

:lol:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NecroBlade again.Why!! Whyyyyy!!!!

[Griffin]

I need to spend more time outside of the C3G boards.....but I don't want to. :)I know what you mean.

[NecroBlade]

Nah, they just wanna come and see the member of the year until a new one is crowned. :-P
What makes you think someone ELSE will be crowned?

http://i44.tinypic.com/15q5b1k.jpg


~NB, unapologetically for being so reppable

[Griffin]

scary

[whitestuff]

Hmmm... what to do...

Yea? Nay?

Will the tests be redone once a new costing is decided on?

I'll have to admit that I was shocked to see how well the Civies did in some of those playtests. I'd never have guessed it.

I'll have to admit that I'm leaning towards the more conservative 45...

[IAmBatman]

Nope. This is it for the tests except a few whole set tests. We don't really have the time to devote to playtests for single units beyond this.
So we're going to need a firm yea or nay from you for passing them at 45.

[whitestuff]

Yea at 45 then.

[IAmBatman]

Woo hoo! Civilians pass at 45 points!

[IAmBatman]

After reviewing this with Griffin just now, I propose we pass the Civilians on to the second phase of final revision. This means we are determining that the text for this unit is polished and ready to be placed on a card by GreyOwl.

[Griffin]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

OK, any more people on this one?

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Getting closer ... any way to put a spotlight behind this: http://i44.tinypic.com/15q5b1k.jpg

[GreyOwl]

http://i44.tinypic.com/15q5b1k.jpg





Someone needs to take that thing away from him...;)

[NecroBlade]

That's what she said. :(

Yea. :p

[IAmBatman]

Ha! Passes to Carding.

[Griffin]

That's what she said. :(

Yea. :p

Who necros the Necro?
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/test.jpg?t=1266366965

[GreyOwl]

And incidentally, we also need to keep Griffin away from Photoshop...;)

[Griffin]

And incidentally, we also need to keep Griffin away from Photoshop...;)
Try Microsoft Paint. :p

[GreyOwl]

All artistic software...of any kind. :)

[Griffin]

:( "sniff"

[IAmBatman]

Ha! :-P

[Hahma]

And changing powers on first post of units after they've gone through playtesting with agreed upon powers that had previously been on first post. :p

[Griffin]

And changing powers on first post of units after they've gone through playtesting with agreed upon powers that had previously been on first post. :p:roll: