The Book of Jean Grey

[IAmBatman]

The Book of Jean Grey

C3G MARVEL WAVE 1
RISE OF THE MUTANTS

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_JeanGrey_comic.jpg
Comic PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_JeanGrey_comic.pdf)

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_JeanGrey_mini.jpg
Mini PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_JeanGrey_mini.pdf)

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Universe set.
Its model number and name are #073-075 / Jean Grey.

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Infinity Challenge set.
Its model number and name are #049-051, 165 / Jean Grey.
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Character Bio - Possibly Professor X (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597)'s most beloved of all of his X-Men, Jean Grey has shared her most intimate thoughts and life experiances with her dear professor. Like Professor X, Jean Grey has Mutant DNA that allow her to utilize the power of Telepathy. Although her Telepathy has been partially restricted with mental blocks by the Professor, Jean has also learned to control her inner ability of Telekinesis. What Jean can do, is still not as important as who she is. Jean is the most loving and compassionate of the X-Men. She was brought into the X Mansion at a very young age, and has encountered hundreds of different people with special needs and powers over the years, but her most important encounter was with that of her husband Scott Summers (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27878), also known as Cyclops.
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-Rulings and Clarifications-

The 'S' symbol.The 'S' symbol in the lower left-hand corner of the card signifies this figure has Superstrength. A figure with Superstrength is immune to Falling and Major Falling; the figure is not immune to Extreme Falling, however. A figure with Superstrength is also able to ignore any abilities a destructible object has that would give it automatic shields. (A3n)
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-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received

Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
Jean Grey's 20-sided die rolls for bother Telekinesis 12 and Psionic Grip 12 can be boosted if she's adjacent to other Telepaths. Other Telepaths include: Emma Frost (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39477), Gorilla Grodd (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31479), Martian Manhunter (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1056477), Professor X (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597), Psylocke (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37431), Solovar (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38991), White Martian (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36106).
As a Mutant, Jean Grey may be activated by Professor X's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597) Mutant Mind Link special power.
As a Mutant, Jean Grey may be moved by Cyclops' (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27878) Mutant Field Commander special power.
As a Telepath, Jean Grey may be activated by Cyclops' (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27878) Telepathic Rapport special power.
As a Telepath, Jean Grey may be moved farther by Martian Manhunter's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1056477) Telepathic Directive special power.
As a Mutant, Jean Grey may add 1 to her 20-sided die roll with Destiny's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1417597) Probability Precognition special ability.
As a Mutant, Jean Grey may be turned into an Outcast by Magneto's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=43541) Mutant Recruitment special power.
As a Mutant, Jean Grey may be turned into a Horseman by Apocalypse's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=43541) Horsemen of the Apocalypse special power.
Synergy Benefits Offered

Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Mutant, Jean Grey may offer an initiative bonus from Sentinel's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27888) Mutant Detection special power.
As a Telepath, Jean Grey may add one attack die to Professor X's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597) Telepathic Blast Special Attack.
As a Telepath, Jean Grey may add an additional die to a Gorilla City Warrior (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37705)'s normal attack due to their Telepathic Troop special power if she is engaged with the same figure.
As a Mutant, Jean Grey may enable Jubilee (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37861) to take a turn after her as her Mutant Sidekick.
As a Telepath, Jean Grey may be used by Emma Frost (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39477) to attack with her Psychic Proxy Special Attack.
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-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
PLAYTEST ONE - Pass at 180 (though seemingly could go higher) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1012990&postcount=174)
PLAYTEST TWO (Pass at 180) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1013557&postcount=184)
PLAYTEST THREE - Pass at 180 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1013389&postcount=182)
PLAYTEST FOUR - Pass at 180 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1013752&postcount=188)

[IAmBatman]

Obviously we're waiting on Dark Phoenix for now, so I'm moving that into a spoiler.
What are our thoughts on cost here? Do we like where the powers are at? We need a comic picture as well before we can move to playtesting with this one.

[Griffin]

Everything is in the first post, so this post wasn't necessary any longer.

[IAmBatman]

All right - how are we feeling about the power selections, stats, points, and left box here, folks?
We also need to get some comic art up for her.

[Griffin]

Not sure what I was thinking on some of these, but Jean 5 is my favorite based on Bats clear approval and rightyness.
Jean 1 (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/Jean3.jpg?t=1260228934)
Jean 2 (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/Jean1.jpg?t=1260228872)
Jean 3 (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/Jean4.jpg?t=1260228888)
Jean 4 (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/Jean6.jpg?t=1260228974)
Jean 5 (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/Jean5.jpg?t=1260228960)
Jean 6 (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin%3Cbr%20/%3E%0A%3Cbr%20/%3E%0A/Jean2.jpg?t=1260228876)
Jean 7 (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/Jean7.jpg?t=1260228992)

[IAmBatman]

Number 7 is no go for me.
After that, here's my rankings:

5
1
6
2
3
4

Really, though, #5 is the clear cut best for me there.

[Griffin]

Number 7 is no go for me.
After that, here's my rankings:

5
1
6
2
3
4

Really, though, #5 is the clear cut best for me there.
I think you are right actually.. surprise there.:p I am good with 5 as the best option. Looking forward to some other input though.

[IAmBatman]

It's big, it's colorful, the costume is right, the pose really captures what we're going for in terms of powers, and there's no distracting background.

[Balantai]

Where do we stand with Jean Grey?

[Griffin]

Where do we stand with Jean Grey?
I think that if we leave off the "Phoenix" portion for now, we could move "Jean" over to the Play test phase. :2cents:

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Ask yourself this question, can you see room for a more powerful combination telepath/telekinetic? If the answer is yes, then she probably isn't ready yet. If the answer is no, then she is ready to move to playtesting.

[Griffin]

Ask yourself this question, can you see room for a more powerful combination telepath/telekinetic? If the answer is yes, then she probably isn't ready yet. If the answer is no, then she is ready to move to playtesting.I don't think the question is "can I see room for a more powerful telepath/telekinetic?", because it would obviously be yes. Just like I could see a more powerful Thanos, Superman, Hulk, Magneto, etc... For me, the question is "should we make her a more powerful telepath/telekinetic?" and on that, I am not sure. I figure that we could adjust those D20 powers in the playtesting.

So really what we should be asking is, "do we like these two powers and stats as icon representations of this character?" for me it is yes.:D

[Griffin]

I now have a Jean Card up on the first page, two or three posts down.

[IAmBatman]

Purdy. Though we were going to let GO put all of these on cards, though?
Also, seeing it on a card, is the amount of text in these powers going to be problematic? It's at least certainly a good thing we dropped the third power!

[Griffin]

Purdy. Though we were going to let GO put all of these on cards, though?
Also, seeing it on a card, is the amount of text in these powers going to be problematic? It's at least certainly a good thing we dropped the third power!I figured that since I got my computer back up and running, I would do some art, even though it is going to be redone later by GO. Also, the text is still less than Catwoman's I think, but I am sure GO can fit the text as it is currently written. But you are right, it is good that the third power is gone!
Do you think that our bases are covered on this card, at least enough to play-test?

[Griffin]

Oh, as much as I like the flavor of the "+1 to whatever is rolled for Telepaths adjacent..", I could see letting one of the two or both of them go if we needed room on the card.

[IAmBatman]

I think we need to figure out the same thing about DOs in this power as we do in Magneto's. Are we going to address that in the Throw powers (that they can throw DOs) or in the special rules set?
i.e. Do we want them to be able to throw small or medium DOs without needing the optional rules addition to be in play?

[Griffin]

What if Dos had a Super Strength Symbol on them to signify the requirement of the Hero to throw them, that way Jean could throw DOs that "do not have the Super Strength Symbol on the card", where as Mags could (if he has super Strength).

[IAmBatman]

That's a possibility for the additional rules set (can't remember if I put that on there or not). But if, for instance, a fire hydrant requires superstrength to pick up (because you'd have to tear it out of the ground) is that really something Jean couldn't do?
I think if it's restricted to "small or medium figures or destructible objects" for their throws, then we can easily cover it so even if you're not using the DO optional rules they can toss, for instance, a barrel at another figure. They can toss them in a way that does damage thanks to the collision damage inclusions (if we go that way for both cards). And this way we won't have to figure out how to include throwing powers in the optional rules.
This way we could also incorporate use for Jean's Psionic Grip power within the regular game when it comes to DOs.

[GreyOwl]

Just remember to maintain the text version. It's a lot easier for me to work off that because I can copy and paste your text. If all I have is the card, I have to retype everything...

[IAmBatman]

Yes, please, what he said. :-)

[Griffin]

Just remember to maintain the text version. It's a lot easier for me to work off that because I can copy and paste your text. If all I have is the card, I have to retype everything...Ah, gotcha. I will make sure I post the appropriate words and pic for ya.

[GreyOwl]

Thank you! :)

[A3n]

Jean Grey was a hard figure to choose a background for, I didn't even know where to begin.

Also she won't have an alternate name will she?

http://aslade.gallery.netspace.net.au/albums/C3G/JeanGrey.jpg

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Psychadelic!
And no, no alternate name unless we want to call her Marvel Girl and make Jean Grey the subtitle ... but I think just Jean Grey might be the better approach.

[Griffin]

Just "Jean Grey" is best IMO, until one of us does Marvel Girl in the future.

[IAmBatman]

Agreed.

[Griffin]

Hey Bats, can you please update the first post with this change?

TELEKINETIC THROW 12
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one small or medium figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.
If you roll a 12 or higher, you may throw the chosen figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of its current location. After the figure is placed, you may roll 1 attack die for throwing damage. If you roll a skull, the chosen figure receives 1 wound. The thrown figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

[A3n]

Hey Bats, can you please update the first post with this change?

TELEKINETIC THROW 12
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one small or medium figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.
If you roll a 12 or higher, you may throw the chosen figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of its current position. After the figure is placed, you may roll 1 attack die for throwing damage. If you roll a skull, the chosen figure receives 1 wound. The thrown figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.
Another one :D, see here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=991093&postcount=195).

[Griffin]

Hey Bats, can you please update the first post with this change?

TELEKINETIC THROW 12
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one small or medium figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.
If you roll a 12 or higher, you may throw the chosen figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of its current position. After the figure is placed, you may roll 1 attack die for throwing damage. If you roll a skull, the chosen figure receives 1 wound. The thrown figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.
Another one :D, see here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=991093&postcount=195).
Back at ya.:p see here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=991096&postcount=196).

[A3n]

Hey Bats, can you please update the first post with this change?

TELEKINETIC THROW 12
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one small or medium figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.
If you roll a 12 or higher, you may throw the chosen figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of its current position. After the figure is placed, you may roll 1 attack die for throwing damage. If you roll a skull, the chosen figure receives 1 wound. The thrown figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.
Another one :D, see here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=991093&postcount=195).
Back at ya.:p see here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=991096&postcount=196).
:p here. (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=991104&postcount=197)

[Griffin]

Here here. :)

[IAmBatman]

You guys are a pain in the rear. :roll:

[Velenne]

I'm unclear on how Jean becomes Phoenix? Or are they two separate cards entirely?

[Griffin]

I'm unclear on how Jean becomes Phoenix? Or are they two separate cards entirely?
Yeah, the whole Phoenix thing got tabled to do at a different time. There will be a Phoenix at some point in Ala Cart I am sure, but for now it is just Jean. Sorry about that though.

[Velenne]

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you killed her and she could come back Thanos-style but as Phoenix.

[Griffin]

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you killed her and she could come back Thanos-style but as Phoenix.
That was the original concept, but alas, things change. :roll:

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, if we decide to do something like that in the future, the powers will be detailed completely on the Phoenix card. This might be something that happens in ala cart ... I went and purchased that darn Phoenix figure, so I'm going to want a card for her sooner rather than later. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

The green one or the massive on fire one?

[IAmBatman]

The green one. I'm not crazy enough to spend that much.

[Matt Helm]

I'm sure I'm going to get ripped for this at this point, but doesn't having Magneto and Jean being produced at the same time with the Throw powers kind of take away from each other?

I know the Spidey/Venow mirror image thing works but in this case, with the throw factor, it just seems to make such a fun element become redundant.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a better suggested fix as of yet and I love the Psionic Grip as a counter to Magneto's ability. I'm just not sold on Telekinetic Throw.

Maybe a Special Attack that then moves people much like Throw or Knockback does, or a mind control that just makes another figure attack his own without moving. I don't know, just thinking out loud as I try to catch up with all the creations I've missed recently.

[IAmBatman]

Well, Jean's should function differently (higher roll required, and only one throw per turn, and no restrictions on using other powers along with it). Also, as a telepath, Jean will have synergies Magneto doesn't, and her lower cost will allow her to fit in with a Professor X army more fluidly.
Sure, they'll have one similar power, but when a power fits, it fits. I don't think we should force a power on to a card just to make the custom feel more different. Just like Spidey and Venom play plenty different, I'm confident Magneto and Jean Grey will.

[IAmBatman]

JEAN GREY

MUTANT
UNIQUE HERO
TELEPATH
MERCIFUL
MEDIUM 4

LIFE = 4
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 5
POINTS = 180?

TELEKINETIC THROW 12
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one small or medium destructible object or figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may throw the chosen object or figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement. After the object or figure is placed, roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 1 wound. The thrown object or figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object or a figure you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.


How's this look? I think the powers are good (slight tweaks based on Magneto) ... we need to figure out initial cost for sure ... are we ready to move her on?

[Griffin]

At 150 points and I am voting yes for playtesting!

[IAmBatman]

Well, good, because I think that's the best cost for her, and I'm proposing we move Jean Grey to playtesting! (And that's already two votes in favor)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OK, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't we listing Jean as a Telepath? Shouldn't she have at least one Telepathic ability if we are? I mean currently her powers are Telekinetic in nature, not Telepathic. Sorry, if this makes me a party pooper.

EDIT: Also, while keeping in mind I am no expert at costing figures, I do realize that she is a weaker version of Magneto to an extent. Is she so weak that she is only worth half as much?

[Griffin]

OK, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't we listing Jean as a Telepath? Shouldn't she have at least one Telepathic ability if we are? I mean currently her powers are Telekinetic in nature, not Telepathic. Sorry, if this makes me a party pooper.She is being boosted by Telepaths in both of her Special Abilities, besides "Telekinetic" doesn't sound very good for a Class. Also, with future Telepathic powers and synergies that are likely to develop in the future, I would hate for her to be left out of them.



EDIT: Also, while keeping in mind I am no expert at costing figures, I do realize that she is a weaker version of Magneto to an extent. Is she so weak that she is only worth half as much?
Her range sucks, she doesn't have that awesome Defensive ability that Magneto has, she doesn't have flying, she doesn't have SuperStrength, and her Throw is more difficult to pull off, not to mention she can only throw once per turn where Mags can throw twice per turn. So Yes, to answer your question, she is half the man.. "ahem" mutant that Magneto is. :D

[Hahma]

This will evidently be the early years Jean Grey because when she was with X-Factor, she could fly and was a pretty powerful telekinetic.

[Balantai]

I actually agree a bit with Spidey. I still feel that Jean is going to feel a great deal like Magneto. Do you think it could be possible to reword Telekinetic Throw so that she can move friendly figures? She does this a lot in comics.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of Psionic Blast Special Attack on her card.

[Griffin]

I actually agree a bit with Spidey. I still feel that Jean is going to feel a great deal like Magneto. Do you think it could be possible to reword Telekinetic Throw so that she can move friendly figures? She does this a lot in comics.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of Psionic Blast Special Attack on her card.
Currently Jean and Magneto can both throw friendly figures, and the damage roll is optional.

As far as the Psionic Blast Special Attack goes, I like that represented in her normal attack, that allows for Psionic Grip which is going to be a lot of fun to play with KnockBack, Magneto, and other future powers that can move your figures. But if you have a good small suggestion for a third power I am open to hearing it, although I was really hoping that I could playtest her as is today.

[IAmBatman]

Actually, the roll wasn't optional until I changed it this morning ... :oops: I'm actually going to go back and look at Magneto and make sure his damage roll is optional as well, though.
Anyway, I like Jean Grey as is and I think she'll play more different from Magneto than Spider-Man does from Venom, fwiw.
If there are things people want to add, though, specific suggestions will get a lot more mileage.

[Balantai]

Actually, the roll wasn't optional until I changed it this morning ... :oops: I'm actually going to go back and look at Magneto and make sure his damage roll is optional as well, though.
Anyway, I like Jean Grey as is and I think she'll play more different from Magneto than Spider-Man does from Venom, fwiw.
If there are things people want to add, though, specific suggestions will get a lot more mileage.
I think I'd actually prefer to have it so Magneto's roll is mandatory, but Jean's is optional. This will help keep them unique. :D

[Griffin]

This is one of those times where I wish everyone would just agree to put her into playtesting so I we do some test scapeing and less theory scapeing. :?

[Griffin]

Actually, the roll wasn't optional until I changed it this morning ... :oops: I'm actually going to go back and look at Magneto and make sure his damage roll is optional as well, though.
Anyway, I like Jean Grey as is and I think she'll play more different from Magneto than Spider-Man does from Venom, fwiw.
If there are things people want to add, though, specific suggestions will get a lot more mileage.
I think I'd actually prefer to have it so Magneto's roll is mandatory, but Jean's is optional. This will help keep them unique. :D
I can understand that sentiment, but that sorta shows Jean as having more control than Magneto... not a fan of that. Can't we just move forward and tweak in the playtesting? Please.

[Balantai]

This is one of those times where I wish everyone would just agree to put her into playtesting so I we do some test scapeing and less theory scapeing. :?
The problem is once we get into playtesting, it's much harder to make changes. You said so yourself. In other words, if I'm to push for changes, I need to make my point before playtesting begins.

[Griffin]

This is one of those times where I wish everyone would just agree to put her into playtesting so I we do some test scapeing and less theory scapeing. :?
The problem is once we get into playtesting, it's much harder to make changes. You said so yourself. In other words, if I'm to push for changes, I need to make my point before playtesting begins.
Fine, but lets not try and make changes just because we can.

[Rich10]

I would think that both Jean Grey and Magneto would be able to move friendly figures without harming them. Thematically, it is something which was fairly common in the comic books.

[Balantai]

This is one of those times where I wish everyone would just agree to put her into playtesting so I we do some test scapeing and less theory scapeing. :?
The problem is once we get into playtesting, it's much harder to make changes. You said so yourself. In other words, if I'm to push for changes, I need to make my point before playtesting begins.
Fine, but lets not try and make changes just because we can.
:roll:

[Balantai]

I would think that both Jean Grey and Magneto would be able to move friendly figures without harming them. Thematically, it is something which was fairly common in the comic books.
I agree, Rich. My concern is that Magneto and Jean Grey are too similar. They are going to play like the same figure, and I'm not sure this is a good idea.

EDIT: I thought I was the only person that felt this way, so I wasn't saying anything. But now I know Spidey feels similarly, so I'm going to try to make my point and see if any of our other Heroes agree with us. Maybe it's a moot point, but it's one worth exploring.

[IAmBatman]

I would think that both Jean Grey and Magneto would be able to move friendly figures without harming them. Thematically, it is something which was fairly common in the comic books.

And Magneto was tested this way thus far as well.

I would think that both Jean Grey and Magneto would be able to move friendly figures without harming them. Thematically, it is something which was fairly common in the comic books.
I agree, Rich. My concern is that Magneto and Jean Grey are too similar. They are going to play like the same figure, and I'm not sure this is a good idea.

Any chance I could make a request on this? Before you get too convinced that they'll play like the same figure, I encourage you to play one game with each of them - just one with each - heck they could even both be on different armies in the same game - and see how similarly you feel they play.

[Griffin]

I played with Mags last night, and there is no way, NO WAY, that Jean and Mags are going to be too similar. He is far more powerful, he has more tactical decisions to make with his Electromagnetic Defense, he flies, he has an incredible range and attack that allows him to snipe and run, he has double throw and a much easier chance of landing it.... they are similar, but pleas listen to me and trust me (or play it for yourself) they are very very very very different in terms of how they play.

[Balantai]

I would think that both Jean Grey and Magneto would be able to move friendly figures without harming them. Thematically, it is something which was fairly common in the comic books.

And Magneto was tested this way thus far as well..
No problem. I was just looking for ways that could make them differ a bit more. I agree that it's not thematic and I therefore retract my suggestion. :D

Any chance I could make a request on this? Before you get too convinced that they'll play like the same figure, I encourage you to play one game with each of them - just one with each - heck they could even both be on different armies in the same game - and see how similarly you feel they play.
I will try to do this tonight. I can't guarantee anything, as we might have company, but I talked my wife into allowing me to keep my map set up. :twisted:

[Griffin]

I talked my wife into allowing me to keep my map set up. :twisted:That is an excellent accomplishment, I know. :D If you can build a small BOV map inside of a cardboard box, you can move it and keep it safely out of the way until you need it again. Just a suggestion to help out.

[Balantai]

I talked my wife into allowing me to keep my map set up. :twisted:That is an excellent accomplishment, I know. :D If you can build a small BOV map inside of a cardboard box, you can move it and keep is safely out of the way until you need it again. Just a suggestion to help out.
Right now it's on our kitchen table. That's really the only place I can fit my one BOV map. I'm going to try to push an "eating out" agenda when I get home to salvage the map until tomorrow.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, a quick game with the two of them should either confirm your concerns or show they're not as similar as you thought. We'll see! :-)

[Balantai]

I played with Mags last night, and there is no way, NO WAY, that Jean and Mags are going to be too similar. He is far more powerful, he has more tactical decisions to make with his Electromagnetic Defense, he flies, he has an incredible range and attack that allows him to snipe and run, he has double throw and a much easier chance of landing it.... they are similar, but pleas listen to me and trust me (or play it for yourself) they are very very very very different in terms of how they play.
You seem so sure, Griff. But I think I'm coming at this from a different perspective. When I look at Spidey and Venom, I'm sad. Sure, they have different stats and thus play a little differently, but to me it looks lazy. I would've liked to see more variety between the two.

Overall, though, you seem absurdly adamant about not changing a single thing and just get him to playtesting. I'm going to drop this issue.

[IAmBatman]

You seem so sure, Griff. But I think I'm coming at this from a different perspective. When I look at Spidey and Venom, I'm sad. Sure, they have different stats and thus play a little differently, but to me it looks lazy. I would've liked to see more variety between the two.

But, that's the thing - you're looking at them, not playing with them. I had the same reaction looking at them, but have never felt that way playing with them.


Overall, though, you seem absurdly adamant about not changing a single thing and just get him to playtesting. I'm going to drop this issue.

I don't think anyone here is being absurdly adamant at all. In fact, people seemed more than willing to wait and let you play with them to get a better feel on things.

[Griffin]

I find it kinda insulting when I playtest something and you don't want to listen to the results and my opinion.

Am I sure of myself? a little. Am I sure that I have a better feel for these two units than you do?... you betcha.

[IAmBatman]

So ... that's two yeas for Jean Grey moving to playtesting ... and no nays. Any chance of getting some more votes around here, or if not votes, at least some ideas of changes to make that would make you want to vote?

[GreyOwl]

Any chance I could make a request on this? Before you get too convinced that they'll play like the same figure, I encourage you to play one game with each of them - just one with each - heck they could even both be on different armies in the same game - and see how similarly you feel they play.


Shouldn't we give Balantai a chance to try this before voting to move on to playtesting? While I don't necessarily agree that Magneto and Jean Grey are too similar, I do agree with him in that once she moves into playtesting, people are going to be much more resistant to making changes. So why the rush?

A couple of comments I have on her powers. Psionic Grip is very cool, but it also seems worthless without optional rules like Knockback or Throwable DO's. I'm not sure I would feel those rules were really optional if I wanted to field this card. And does anyone else think she should have some form of Mind Shackle ability?

[Matt Helm]

I'm sure I'm going to get ripped for this at this point, but doesn't having Magneto and Jean being produced at the same time with the Throw powers kind of take away from each other?

I know the Spidey/Venow mirror image thing works but in this case, with the throw factor, it just seems to make such a fun element become redundant.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a better suggested fix as of yet and I love the Psionic Grip as a counter to Magneto's ability. I'm just not sold on Telekinetic Throw.

Maybe a Special Attack that then moves people much like Throw or Knockback does, or a mind control that just makes another figure attack his own without moving. I don't know, just thinking out loud as I try to catch up with all the creations I've missed recently.

OK playtesters, I agree that us theoryscapers don't have as much fire power to make the argument but just give Balantai a chance here.

Spidey and Venom are so damn similar because the characters basically have the same powers. Yeah they're a little different and they certainly act differently but they're based on the same thing.

At the risk of being a theme nerd, magnetism and telekinetics are completely different. I think some of us are just wishing they were represented differently. I believe you guys that they play differently because you have to play them based on their power level. Krug and Hulk play differently but their powers are similar. Cut Captain America's stats in half, let his shield only hit two enemies and cut out the tactician bonus and you'll play that character differently too. It doesn't change the fact that it would appear similar to the original.

I worry about the fun factor when drafting. Does anyone want to take Magneto's little junior high school sister?

:D

[Griffin]

Any chance I could make a request on this? Before you get too convinced that they'll play like the same figure, I encourage you to play one game with each of them - just one with each - heck they could even both be on different armies in the same game - and see how similarly you feel they play.


Shouldn't we give Balantai a chance to try this before voting to move on to playtesting? While I don't necessarily agree that Magneto and Jean Grey are too similar, I do agree with him in that once she moves into playtesting, people are going to be much more resistant to making changes. So why the rush?

A couple of comments I have on her powers. Psionic Grip is very cool, but it also seems worthless without optional rules like Knockback or Throwable DO's. I'm not sure I would feel those rules were really optional if I wanted to field this card. And does anyone else think she should have some form of Mind Shackle ability?
I am more than happy to cater to the needs of Ballntai by giving him a chance to playtest before playtesting because he thinks that they should be more different. I am sure that this will happen very soon. :roll:

I understand your point about Psionic Grip, I do, however I really believe that not only against Magneto, or with DOs, or with DO rules, Jean Grey's Psionic Grip over time will become much more valuable as we and the official game continues to design new powers. For now though, with Psionic Grip in place, it would come into effect with the Chain Drow, Jotun, optional rule for DOs, and Magneto (her opposite in this set).
If we wanted that power to have more usefulness though without compromising what it currently does, what about this suggestion:


PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

This would make it useful against every figure and DO within 4 CSS that would ever moved by anything.

She could stop people who started close to her and wanted to engage
prevent people from engaging Professor X
stop DOs from flying due to an optional rule attack, DO normal power, or possible explosion etc.
prevent people with mind control from moving a figure that they just mind controledWhat do you think about that? It would certainly give this power much more usefulness, but it would also bump her cost up some.

[GreyOwl]

I understand what you're saying about playing them first Griffin, but keep in mind that if several of us make that judgment upon seeing the cards without playing them (correctly or incorrectly), you can bet a lot of our fans will, too.

[Griffin]

I'm sure I'm going to get ripped for this at this point, but doesn't having Magneto and Jean being produced at the same time with the Throw powers kind of take away from each other?

I know the Spidey/Venow mirror image thing works but in this case, with the throw factor, it just seems to make such a fun element become redundant.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a better suggested fix as of yet and I love the Psionic Grip as a counter to Magneto's ability. I'm just not sold on Telekinetic Throw.

Maybe a Special Attack that then moves people much like Throw or Knockback does, or a mind control that just makes another figure attack his own without moving. I don't know, just thinking out loud as I try to catch up with all the creations I've missed recently.

OK playtesters, I agree that us theoryscapers don't have as much fire power to make the argument but just give Balantai a chance here.

Spidey and Venom are so damn similar because the characters basically have the same powers. Yeah they're a little different and they certainly act differently but they're based on the same thing.

At the risk of being a theme nerd, magnetism and telekinetics are completely different. I think some of us are just wishing they were represented differently. I believe you guys that they play differently because you have to play them based on their power level. Krug and Hulk play differently but their powers are similar. Cut Captain America's stats in half, let his shield only hit two enemies and cut out the tactician bonus and you'll play that character differently too. It doesn't change the fact that it would appear similar to the original.

I worry about the fun factor when drafting. Does anyone want to take Magneto's little junior high school sister?

:DThat right there is the problem with theoryscaping and not enough scaping. I always seem to hear from the same crowd that does not playtest regularly "Looks" "feels" "appears" "reads" "seems" etc. etc. etc.
Until we play test somethings, all the powers are just a bunch of words that we are trying to dream up and connect to what may happen. Spidey and Venom are too similar IMO I agree with that, but these two units really aren't'. And there is no way for you to know that I guess unless you play it out or take someones word that has.

[Griffin]

I understand what you're saying about playing them first Griffin, but keep in mind that if several of us make that judgment upon seeing the cards without playing them (correctly or incorrectly), you can bet a lot of our fans will, too.
No offense, but I think our fans play the game more than we do.

[GreyOwl]

I understand what you're saying about playing them first Griffin, but keep in mind that if several of us make that judgment upon seeing the cards without playing them (correctly or incorrectly), you can bet a lot of our fans will, too.
No offense, but I think our fans play the game more than we do.

They might, but they will also make judgments before they play. I know this, because a lot of them do it with official figures, too. I'm not saying it's right, but it does create a certain kind of "PR".

[GreyOwl]

That right there is the problem with theoryscaping and not enough scaping. I always seem to hear from the same crowd that does not playtest regularly "Looks" "feels" "appears" "reads" "seems" etc. etc. etc.
Until we play test somethings, all the powers are just a bunch of words that we are trying to dream up and connect to what may happen. Spidey and Venom are too similar IMO I agree with that, but these two units really aren't'. And there is no way for you to know that I guess unless you play it out or take someones word that has.

I guess my take is that they may in fact play differently (I'm not arguing that point), but some people look for more than that across a set of cards. They also look for originality. Even if the figures play differently, are well-balanced, and fun, they'll still say "yeah, but they pretty much copied the power from that other card".

For example, I actually don't think Spider-Man and Venom play too similary. But I do think one of them is not very original or creative compared to the other.

[Griffin]

Batman and Catwoman had Vanish abilities.
Joker, Two-Face, Black Canary, Batman and Catwoman had multiple attacks.

And each one of those were different in some way similar to how Magneto and Jean can both throw but Mags can throw twice instead of attacking with ease, and Jean can throw once before attacking with less consistency.

The funny thing is that you guys are talking about how they are similar in a negative way, yet the big suggestion (which truthfully hasn't been given yet) is that there is a problem with Psionic Grip, the one power on this card that clearly separates her from Magneto.

[Matt Helm]

I just look at Jean's card and I don't want to play her. Maybe you're right and she plays different from Magneto, and she plays great. But you look at her before you get to play her and unless the C3G is whipping you into playing her, I fear that she won't get too many voluntary play dates.

EDIT: I agree with your last statement. If Psionic Grip was replaced with something more fun, I might be able to live with the similar yet different throw abilities.

[Griffin]

So far there has only been one suggestion to change this card, and it was mine because of all the criticism. Nobody said anything about the suggestion or offered an alternate solution, all that has been offered is criticism after criticism. If you are part of this group, it should be because you are a great creator, not a critic.

I will post it again and see what you guys think in case you missed it.
PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

[GreyOwl]

Batman and Catwoman had Vanish abilities.
Joker, Two-Face, Black Canary, Batman and Catwoman had multiple attacks.


But you know what the difference was with those? None of us felt they were too similar. It's all about the perception.

[Griffin]

I just look at Jean's card and I don't want to play her. Maybe you're right and she plays different from Magneto, and she plays great. But you look at her before you get to play her and unless the C3G is whipping you into playing her, I fear that she won't get too many voluntary play dates.

EDIT: I agree with your last statement. If Psionic Grip was replaced with something more fun, I might be able to live with the similar yet different throw abilities.
So the ability to throw someone from a distance, put them at a height disadvantage, place them in a damning situation with opponents or terrain effects, inflict throwing damage, and then attack them from range doesn't entice you to draft her? I think you are in denial to try and prove a point. :| Or you are really out of touch with the game.

[GreyOwl]

So far there has only been one suggestion to change this card, and it was mine because of all the criticism. Nobody said anything about the suggestion or offered an alternate solution, all that has been offered is criticism after criticism. If you are part of this group, it should be because you are a great creator, not a critic.


Did you miss my post where I said I wasn't sure I liked Psionic Grip and suggested she might also warrant a Mind Shackle-type power? Here it is:

A couple of comments I have on her powers. Psionic Grip is very cool, but it also seems worthless without optional rules like Knockback or Throwable DO's. I'm not sure I would feel those rules were really optional if I wanted to field this card. And does anyone else think she should have some form of Mind Shackle ability?


I will post it again and see what you guys think in case you missed it.
PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.


I thought your suggestion the first time changed "figure you control" to just "figure" and "moved by an opponent's figure" to just "moved". Do you not want to use that version anymore?

[Matt Helm]

So far there has only been one suggestion to change this card, and it was mine because of all the criticism. Nobody said anything about the suggestion or offered an alternate solution, all that has been offered is criticism after criticism. If you are part of this group, it should be because you are a great creator, not a critic.

I will post it again and see what you guys think in case you missed it.
PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

How about, making it that anytime an opponent goes to move a figure (within x spaces of Jean) or DO (even Magneto), roll the 20-died die and on a 12 or better, Jean moves it instead. :p

[Griffin]

I thought your suggestion the first time changed "figure you control" to just "figure" and "moved by an opponent's figure" to just "moved". Do you not want to use that version anymore?
I kinda liked that level of usefullness to stop any figure.

Personally I am not a fan of her mind-shackling figures. Sorry for missing that, and I appreciate your true suggestion. :thumbsup:

[Matt Helm]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may decide where the object or figure is moved to and whether or not any chance of damage occurs. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.

[Griffin]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may decide where the object or figure is moved to and whether or not any chance of damage occurs. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.
Now we are cooking! I really like that a lot.

[Griffin]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may decide where the object or figure is moved to and whether or not any chance of damage occurs. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.
Now we are cooking! I really like that a lot.
How about this?

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may choose to either Throw that figure or not allow it to move. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.

[Griffin]

I realized that if we make this change, we would have to use this part "a figure you control" instead of "any figure" because if we went that way it would break the mirror test when two opposing Jeans both attempt to move a figure out of their own turn.

[Matt Helm]

In a way, it will always fail the mirror test on DO's because once she does Throw something, if she is facing herself, they could toss it back and forth for hours if they keep rolling 12's.

[IAmBatman]

Shouldn't we give Balantai a chance to try this before voting to move on to playtesting?

I figured since there were six other C3G Heroes and plenty of other people involved in this project, we could feel free to weigh in without letting Balantai be the sole determiner of the direction of this. I'm all about Balantai weighing in - but he shouldn't be the only one to and we shouldn't feel obligated to weigh in based on his schedule, I shouldn't think ...


A couple of comments I have on her powers. Psionic Grip is very cool, but it also seems worthless without optional rules like Knockback or Throwable DO's. I'm not sure I would feel those rules were really optional if I wanted to field this card. And does anyone else think she should have some form of Mind Shackle ability?

It's very useful at stopping Magneto from tossing your guys all over the map, but I agree, it could be more useful, and it'd be nice for it to be more useful ... more on that later.


Don't get me wrong, I don't have a better suggested fix as of yet and I love the Psionic Grip as a counter to Magneto's ability. I'm just not sold on Telekinetic Throw.

Maybe a Special Attack that then moves people much like Throw or Knockback does, or a mind control that just makes another figure attack his own without moving. I don't know, just thinking out loud as I try to catch up with all the creations I've missed recently.

What I like about this post is it at least throws out specific ideas beyond "my perception is they're too similar." It mentions what you like and it mentions what you might like to see.
Maybe she doesn't need a throw at all and we're better off just making her a good counter to Magneto's with a telepathic ability on there?
Frankly I love the subtle way her card addresses her telepathy, but subtly doesn't seem to be making an impression - and impression does appear to be king (that's my perception from reading this thread at least).
I really don't like something that's just going to use the basic mechanics of a throw power and put them into a special attack. Why? A throw's a throw, not a special attack. Why force people to learn crazy new mechanics just to do something with her you would be able to do with slightly new mechanics based on an official power? So I'm glad to see you throwing out a suggestion there, but I'm not loving throw as a special attack here any more than I did on Magneto's card.
And then there's mindshackle or some sort of other mind control power. I think that'd be really cool and it's definitely a power I want to see on a telepath at some point. I guess the question for me is - is that thematically accurate to the character? I know we tossed around mind exchange with Professor X and we came to the conclusion that it wasn't a good fit. Is it here?
Here are a couple of things I love about Jean Grey and a couple of reasons she'd make it on to my game table:

1) She has a friggin ranged throw ability
2) She's going to ring in with that throw ability for over 100 points less than Magneto (seems like that matters when building armies)
3) Unlike Magneto, who has to drop his EM Bubble to use his throw and shed his attack, she can and will try to throw every single turn.
4) When Magneto throws, he'll throw in bunches thanks to the low rolls and the double throw ability. Jean Grey will be more of a tactical thrower - she requires a higher roll (which can be boosted by telepaths) and she can attack after that throw, so she can use it to gain height advantage/positioning/etc.
5) She's a nice counter to Magneto, because her Psionic Grip can help try to stop him from terrorizing a map with his double throw. If I'm facing Magneto on a map with even a single lava tile, not only do I want to draft Jean Grey, she's my first pick!
6) She has a nice subtle expression of her telepathy that gives bonuses to Professor X and works well with Cyclops. That's called synergy, and that draws people to include units in armies. She only has two powers on this card, but she really secretly has a third on Cyclops' card that's going to make you want to draft her with him all the time.
7) She's Jean Grey - she's a perfect thematic fit for the X-Men. If I'm drafting a bunch of X-Men, she'll always get consideration just on that basis.


OK playtesters, I agree that us theoryscapers don't have as much fire power to make the argument but just give Balantai a chance here.

No one's not giving him a chance. Just waiting to hear from him on how that testing is going. I'm guessing he must be working on that right now ...


Spidey and Venom are so damn similar because the characters basically have the same powers. Yeah they're a little different and they certainly act differently but they're based on the same thing.

At the risk of being a theme nerd, magnetism and telekinetics are completely different. I think some of us are just wishing they were represented differently. I believe you guys that they play differently because you have to play them based on their power level. Krug and Hulk play differently but their powers are similar. Cut Captain America's stats in half, let his shield only hit two enemies and cut out the tactician bonus and you'll play that character differently too. It doesn't change the fact that it would appear similar to the original.

Here's a thought - what if Jean Grey could target herself with her telekinetic throw as well? Kind of a D20 dependent flying ability? That would make it seem a little bit increasingly different from Magnetic throw too, right?
But, in terms of theme, guns and lasers are different too, but they seem to both be pretty much represented by attack dice. How else can we represent telekinesis and magnetism differently than moving figures and destructible objects around?
Muscles (Jotun) do the same thing as well, but I have yet to see someone say that Magneto is too much like Jotun. Why not? They both throw other figures ... or that Spider-man is too much like Isamu (but that's a different story all together).
Actually, telekinesis is probably better represented in a throwing power than magnetism is. Maybe we should change Magneto to just have an auto destroy power for androids? :-P (But I really, really dig him as is).


I worry about the fun factor when drafting. Does anyone want to take Magneto's little junior high school sister?

:D

Magneto's old and expensive. His sister's hot, a team player, and a steal at her price.


PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.


This was the "more on that later" - I think that's a great change and would really boost her power level is so many areas and really make her feel like the most powerful telekinetic on the planet. Magneto can toss you around, but she can stop anyone dead in their tracks. Nice.

I understand what you're saying about playing them first Griffin, but keep in mind that if several of us make that judgment upon seeing the cards without playing them (correctly or incorrectly), you can bet a lot of our fans will, too.

Like the people who looked at the Greenscale Warriors and immediately thought they were broken? Is that the type of person we should be catering to? I'm just not sure what we can do about perception more than just offering as high a quality of a product as we can and hoping that people try it out for themselves and see how great it is.
When people try the Greenscale Warriors out, they'll see that they aren't broken and that they're a great, fun unit.
When people try Jean Grey out, I believe, they'll see she's really incredibly different than Magneto (and certainly fits in extremely different army builds). If they choose to let their perception taint them so much that they never play with her ... well, I guess I kind of think that's their problem. I'm not here working on this project to keep that kind of person happy. I'm here to make a quality product that makes me and this group happy and let the community respond how they will (so far, without cow towing to them, I think we've done just fine, btw).
Also, honestly, I'm all about creativity and coming up with new powers, etc., etc., etc., but the simple fact is there's only so much you can reasonably do with the game mechanics without having ridiculous powers that are mechanically absurd and overly complicated. The best suggestion I've heard thus far as an alternative to one of the powers on this card is Mindshackle. That's an official power, which is already on a card and has other powers similar to it on other cards! Why doesn't anyone perceive that as making her too much like Ne-Gok-Sa or Dr. Doom? Because they're not both Mutants?
And then everyone seems to be overlooking that both Electromagnetic Bubble and Psionic Grip are really unique, interesting tactical powers that haven't been seen on any other cards before and are absolutely nothing alike one another.

I just look at Jean's card and I don't want to play her. Maybe you're right and she plays different from Magneto, and she plays great. But you look at her before you get to play her and unless the C3G is whipping you into playing her, I fear that she won't get too many voluntary play dates.

EDIT: I agree with your last statement. If Psionic Grip was replaced with something more fun, I might be able to live with the similar yet different throw abilities.

What do you think of Griff's improved version of Psionic Grip? Do you like the idea of playing something that stops enemies dead in their tracks?

So far there has only been one suggestion to change this card, and it was mine because of all the criticism. Nobody said anything about the suggestion or offered an alternate solution, all that has been offered is criticism after criticism. If you are part of this group, it should be because you are a great creator, not a critic.


That kind of drives me a little nuts around here sometimes too. I totally respect if something's not working for you guys. But talk about it and don't just criticize - propose new ideas.
When something's not working for me I always try to come up with a counter proposal. I'll say, OK this isn't working for me, so how about this. I'm sure I slip up plenty of times and don't hold to that standard, and I apologize for when I have, but I think it's a standard worth holding ourselves to.
There's a difference between a critic and a creator. We'll get plenty of the former from the community. As heroes and sidekicks, let's step up and be the latter. If you don't like something on a card, awesome, but suggest something else. Don't be a roadblock - be a detour.

Batman and Catwoman had Vanish abilities.
Joker, Two-Face, Black Canary, Batman and Catwoman had multiple attacks.


But you know what the difference was with those? None of us felt they were too similar. It's all about the perception.

I think we're going to be in trouble with you guys when we get to Green Lanterns ... of Flashes ... or anyone else with cold based powers (Iceman) ... etc. etc. I worry how your perceptions will react then ...

[IAmBatman]

So far there has only been one suggestion to change this card, and it was mine because of all the criticism. Nobody said anything about the suggestion or offered an alternate solution, all that has been offered is criticism after criticism. If you are part of this group, it should be because you are a great creator, not a critic.

I will post it again and see what you guys think in case you missed it.
PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

How about, making it that anytime an opponent goes to move a figure (within x spaces of Jean) or DO (even Magneto), roll the 20-died die and on a 12 or better, Jean moves it instead. :p

In a way, it will always fail the mirror test on DO's because once she does Throw something, if she is facing herself, they could toss it back and forth for hours if they keep rolling 12's.

Crap. That's a good point. What if we open it up to all figures and then remove Telekinetic Throw from her card completely? Then she'll have Psionic Grip and room for a new power in the place of her throw?

[IAmBatman]

But ... then again ... how long would that streak of 12s last?

[GreyOwl]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object, or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.


This was the "more on that later" - I think that's a great change and would really boost her power level is so many areas and really make her feel like the most powerful telekinetic on the planet. Magneto can toss you around, but she can stop anyone dead in their tracks. Nice.


I like this version better.


That kind of drives me a little nuts around here sometimes too. I totally respect if something's not working for you guys. But talk about it and don't just criticize - propose new ideas.

I did! Did both of you miss my first post?! :)


I think we're going to be in trouble with you guys when we get to Green Lanterns ... of Flashes ... or anyone else with cold based powers (Iceman) ... etc. etc. I worry how your perceptions will react then ...

That's different, because Green Lanterns should be similar. Flashes should be similar. Magnetism and Telepathic abilities shouldn't necessarily be similar.

And yes, Mind Shackle is used on other cards and wouldn't be completely creative. That's why I suggested a Mind Shackle type power, but not the exact same thing. You know, a Matt Helm power where you take an official one and give it a little "twist" to make it just unique and creative enough.

[Griffin]

This post has been deleted.

[IAmBatman]

OK, so I thought in case we do end up brainstorming for other powers or to continue asking how thematic mindshackle is ... let's look at wiki:

When her powers first manifest, Jean is unable to cope with her telepathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy), forcing Professor X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_X) to suppress her access to it altogether. Instead, he chooses to train her in the use of her telekinesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telekinesis) while allowing her telepathy to grow at its natural rate before reintroducing it.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] This is why in Jean's debut appearance as Marvel Girl, she is only capable of using her telekinetic powers.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] When the Professor hides to prepare for the Z'Nox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alien_races_in_Marvel_Comics#Z), he reopens Jean's telepathic powers, which was initially explained as Xavier 'sharing' some of his telepathy with her.[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-55)
Jean's telepathy allows her to read, influence, control, and communicate with the minds of others, project her mind into the astral plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_plane), and generate telepathic force blasts that can stun or kill others. Jean is one of the few telepaths skilled enough to communicate with animals (animals with high intelligence, such as dolphins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin),[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-56) dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog),[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-57) and ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven)[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-58)). She can also telepathically take away or control people's natural bodily functions and senses, such as sight, hearing, smell, taste, or even mutant powers. A side effect of her telepathy is that she is gifted with an eidetic memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory).[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-59)
Her telekinetic strength and skill are both of an extremely high level, capable of grasping objects in Earth orbit and manipulating hundreds of components in mid-air in complex patterns. She uses her telekinesis to often lift herself and others giving her the ability of levitation and flight. She also uses her telekinesis to construct various objects out of telekinetic energy as well as powerful shields and energy blasts.


Anything beyond that really starts to get into the Phoenix stage of her development ... So she can do a lot of things - the question is what era of her are we most interested in representing and what's most iconic for that era?

[Griffin]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

By keeping the Opponents figure in there we can avoid the Mirror loop.

[GreyOwl]

I think we should focus on the power to communicate with animals as her most iconic.


Okay...just kidding. :) I didn't even know she could do that. How about a power where can Mind Exchange squads? She can pick up to three squad figures within a certain range and take a turn with them.

[IAmBatman]

That kind of drives me a little nuts around here sometimes too. I totally respect if something's not working for you guys. But talk about it and don't just criticize - propose new ideas.

I did! Did both of you miss my first post?! :)

Maybe I wasn't talking about you, you egomaniac, you. :-P



I think we're going to be in trouble with you guys when we get to Green Lanterns ... of Flashes ... or anyone else with cold based powers (Iceman) ... etc. etc. I worry how your perceptions will react then ...

That's different, because Green Lanterns should be similar. Flashes should be similar. Magnetism and Telepathic abilities shouldn't necessarily be similar.

Yet at the same time, it makes complete thematic sense for them to be similar as the mechanics represent what you can do with both powers in a battle just as well ... just like arrows and bullets are both represented in normal attacks.


And yes, Mind Shackle is used on other cards and wouldn't be completely creative. That's why I suggested a Mind Shackle type power, but not the exact same thing. You know, a Matt Helm power where you take an official one and give it a little "twist" to make it just unique and creative enough.

What, did Matt Helm pioneer that technique? :-P Heck, what do you call Telekinetic Throw except for an official power that's been given a little "twist" to make it unique and creative? (I'd say "just" and "enough" but that's apparently not the case here ...).
So that's half a suggestion then ... what kind of "twist" would you have in mind?

[GreyOwl]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

By keeping the Opponents figure in there we can avoid the Mirror loop.

But that would also make her less useful. I think a better, and more thematic, way to handle it is to say she can't use Psionic Grip on Telepaths, or DO's moved by Telepaths (however you want to word that).

[Griffin]

OK, so I thought in case we do end up brainstorming for other powers or to continue asking how thematic mindshackle is ... let's look at wiki:

When her powers first manifest, Jean is unable to cope with her telepathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy), forcing Professor X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_X) to suppress her access to it altogether. Instead, he chooses to train her in the use of her telekinesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telekinesis) while allowing her telepathy to grow at its natural rate before reintroducing it.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] This is why in Jean's debut appearance as Marvel Girl, she is only capable of using her telekinetic powers.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] When the Professor hides to prepare for the Z'Nox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alien_races_in_Marvel_Comics#Z), he reopens Jean's telepathic powers, which was initially explained as Xavier 'sharing' some of his telepathy with her.[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-55)
Jean's telepathy allows her to read, influence, control, and communicate with the minds of others, project her mind into the astral plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_plane), and generate telepathic force blasts that can stun or kill others. Jean is one of the few telepaths skilled enough to communicate with animals (animals with high intelligence, such as dolphins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin),[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-56) dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog),[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-57) and ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven)[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-58)). She can also telepathically take away or control people's natural bodily functions and senses, such as sight, hearing, smell, taste, or even mutant powers. A side effect of her telepathy is that she is gifted with an eidetic memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory).[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey#cite_note-59)
Her telekinetic strength and skill are both of an extremely high level, capable of grasping objects in Earth orbit and manipulating hundreds of components in mid-air in complex patterns. She uses her telekinesis to often lift herself and others giving her the ability of levitation and flight. She also uses her telekinesis to construct various objects out of telekinetic energy as well as powerful shields and energy blasts.


Anything beyond that really starts to get into the Phoenix stage of her development ... So she can do a lot of things - the question is what era of her are we most interested in representing and what's most iconic for that era?Thank you for that Bats. This confirms to me that we have been on the right path with her the whole time.

[Griffin]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.
By keeping the Opponents figure in there we can avoid the Mirror loop.

But that would also make her less useful. I think a better, and more thematic, way to handle it is to say she can't use Psionic Grip on Telepaths, or DO's moved by Telepaths (however you want to word that).
What part of the power would you be loosing other than not being able to stop a figure that you are moving anyways?

[Griffin]

GO you said that was your favorite version, minus the cross through.

[IAmBatman]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object or a figure you control, within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent's figure, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

By keeping the Opponents figure in there we can avoid the Mirror loop.

Actually, I think what makes that avoid the loop is that it uses the "may not be moved" language rather than letting Psionic Grip actually move. If it just stops you from moving, there's no loop with Telekinetic Throw, so I think we could open it back up to all figures instead of just figures you control and make it more useful. Maybe even "would be moved by an opposing player."?
Or are you talking about issues in multi-player games where Ted is moving and John and Bill both have a Jean Grey in range of them?

I think we should focus on the power to communicate with animals as her most iconic.


Okay...just kidding. :) I didn't even know she could do that. How about a power where can Mind Exchange squads? She can pick up to three squad figures within a certain range and take a turn with them.

It's possible ... is it iconic for her to run civilians around and have them jump off cliffs and punch Magneto in the face? Cuz I know that's what I'd do with that power ... :-P

[IAmBatman]

I'm confused and I think GO is too, maybe b/c of a strikethrough malfunction somewhere?
Are you (Griffin) proposing that Psionic Grip work to stop the movement of only figures you control or of any figures (in range) that would be moved by an opponent's figure?

[Griffin]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object or a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.How is this?

Sorry about the confusion, there was a lot of changes and quotes made very quickly.

[IAmBatman]

Two things I'd like to see change on her:

The new version of Psionic Grip that would let you stop anyone within 4 spaces of her of being moved by an opponent

and

Allowing her to use her telekinetic throw on herself (giving her situational flying)

[GreyOwl]

In addition to IAmBatman's changes, I also think Psionic Grip shouldn't work on Telepaths.

[IAmBatman]

Here's my perception of Jean Grey ...

She uses telekinesis primarily in battle

She can be more powerful than Magneto when it comes to tossing things around (or stopping them) but she doesn't do it as easily due to not having her full power potential unlocked (psychic blocks)

She has telepathy, but she's not entirely comfortable with it - she uses it to communicate with friends and allies (in battle - like Cyclops' card shows).

Most of the time her telepathy comes into play when others, like her Mentor Professor X, use the telepathic link to encourage her and help her unlock the full use of her power (as shown in both of her D20 rolls being boosted by Telepaths being adjacent to her).

[IAmBatman]

In addition to IAmBatman's changes, I also think Psionic Grip shouldn't work on Telepaths.

Why not? Thematically what's the rationale for Jean Grey not being able to prevent Professor X from moving (or from stopping him from being moved by Magneto ... which is what that change would accomplish, right?).

[GreyOwl]

Here's my perception of Jean Grey ...

She uses telekinesis primarily in battle

She can be more powerful than Magneto when it comes to tossing things around (or stopping them) but she doesn't do it as easily due to not having her full power potential unlocked (psychic blocks)

She has telepathy, but she's not entirely comfortable with it - she uses it to communicate with friends and allies (in battle - like Cyclops' card shows).

Most of the time her telepathy comes into play when others, like her Mentor Professor X, use the telepathic link to encourage her and help her unlock the full use of her power (as shown in both of her D20 rolls being boosted by Telepaths being adjacent to her).

These are good points. So in effect, she does have telepathic powers. They just happen to be on Cyclops's card. ;) I kind of like that!


In addition to IAmBatman's changes, I also think Psionic Grip shouldn't work on Telepaths.

Why not? Thematically what's the rationale for Jean Grey not being able to prevent Professor X from moving (or from stopping him from being moved by Magneto ... which is what that change would accomplish, right?).

That's not the situation I was trying to prevent. I don't think she should be able to stop an opponent's Telepath from moving, because they would fight it. But she should be able to stop Professor X from being thrown by Magneto. So how about if the figure she's trying to stop is an opponent's Telepath, she subtracts X from her roll?

[IAmBatman]

So how about if the figure she's trying to stop is an opponent's Telepath, she subtracts X from her roll?

That seems kind of messy ... and I'm still not certain on the theme. How would that look all spelled out?

[GreyOwl]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time a Destructible Object or a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved. If the figure is an opponent's Telepath, subtract 4 from your roll.

[IAmBatman]

So if I'm adjacent to two Telepaths and I'm throwing someone else's Telepath ... um ... that's ... I know I took this math class in high school ... 11 or higher?

[GreyOwl]

10 or higher. Normally it's 12 or higher, you add 2 for the two adjacent Telepaths, so that gives you 14. You subtract 4 for the opponent's Telepath, and you get 10.

I know it's a little messy (though not too much), but I think this is exactly how Telepathic battles are. They combine their powers on one side and try to overpower the other side.

[GreyOwl]

The simpler option is to just say say "Psionic Grip cannot be used on opponent's Telepaths".

[IAmBatman]

These are good points. So in effect, she does have telepathic powers. They just happen to be on Cyclops's card. ;) I kind of like that!

Btw ... are you just noticing this now? :-P


That's not the situation I was trying to prevent. I don't think she should be able to stop an opponent's Telepath from moving, because they would fight it.

I guess I don't see why their fighting it would make any more of a thematic difference than anyone else ... Someone super strong could fight it too ... or someone with Magnetic abilities like Magneto ... and actually wouldn't someone else with telekinesis really be the one who could fight back better, not Professor X?
And shouldn't they also be able to resist her telekinetic throw just as well ... ?

[IAmBatman]

10 or higher. Normally it's 12 or higher, you add 2 for the two adjacent Telepaths, so that gives you 14. You subtract 4 for the opponent's Telepath, and you get 10.

I know it's a little messy (though not too much), but I think this is exactly how Telepathic battles are. They combine their powers on one side and try to overpower the other side.

Shouldn't something like this go on Professor X's card, though, then? I mean after all it's a telekinetic power, not a telepathic one ... so it's not really a telepathic battle ...

[GreyOwl]

We may be thinking two different things thematically. It sounds like you're thinking about them using telekinesis to counter hers, kind of a force vs. force situation. I'm thinking of it as the opponent using telepathy to supress her ability to perform telekinesis in the first place. They attack her mind so she has trouble concentrating enough to use Psionic Grip.

[Rich10]

This is a suggestion for an additional power. It seems thematic to the comic books.

Cyclops mind link
If Cyclops receives a third wound, Jean Grey gains +2 attack against the figure that caused the 3rd wound to Cyclops. If Cyclops is killed, Jean Grey receives +3 attack against the figure that killed Cyclops.

[IAmBatman]

We may be thinking two different things thematically. It sounds like you're thinking about them using telekinesis to counter hers, kind of a force vs. force situation. I'm thinking of it as the opponent using telepathy to supress her ability to perform telekinesis in the first place. They attack her mind so she has trouble concentrating enough to use Psionic Grip.

I guess (as shown by the way I perceived this) that the theme really doesn't translate clearly from your mind to the wording, then. My perception from reading that power and the theme there was completely different than your intention, and if I know anything about our fans, I'm sure they'll perceive it differently as well and a good number of them will be left scratching their heads, unclear as to why the power works this way.
Also, if she struggles against telepathics with this power, shouldn't she in both? And shouldn't someone like Professor X represent that in his powers as well?
But this could be a road to a whole new type of resistance as well - every telepath performing worse against other telepaths ... and do we really want to open that can of worms? Or is it enough to represent their varying power levels with different D20 rolls/power types/etc.?

This is a suggestion for an additional power. It seems thematic to the comic books.

Cyclops mind link
If Cyclops receives a third wound, Jean Grey gains +2 attack against the figure that caused the 3rd wound to Cyclops. If Cyclops is killed, Jean Grey receives +3 attack against the figure that killed Cyclops.

I think that mind link is already represented really well on Cyclops' card, and as cool as it might be to represent it here as well, honestly, I don't think there's room for a third power on the card.

[Griffin]

This is a suggestion for an additional power. It seems thematic to the comic books.

Cyclops mind link
If Cyclops receives a third wound, Jean Grey gains +2 attack against the figure that caused the 3rd wound to Cyclops. If Cyclops is killed, Jean Grey receives +3 attack against the figure that killed Cyclops.I think this card already has a lot of new things going on, and though your suggestion is cool, it would be too much to add to the card.

[GreyOwl]

I guess (as shown by the way I perceived this) that the theme really doesn't translate clearly from your mind to the wording, then. My perception from reading that power and the theme there was completely different than your intention, and if I know anything about our fans, I'm sure they'll perceive it differently as well and a good number of them will be left scratching their heads, unclear as to why the power works this way.

Probably true, although the same thing could be said of Pelloth. I never would have guessed that his special power represented exploding his drow into thousands of little spiders that then attacked the opponent...

[IAmBatman]

I guess (as shown by the way I perceived this) that the theme really doesn't translate clearly from your mind to the wording, then. My perception from reading that power and the theme there was completely different than your intention, and if I know anything about our fans, I'm sure they'll perceive it differently as well and a good number of them will be left scratching their heads, unclear as to why the power works this way.

Probably true, although the same thing could be said of Pelloth. I never would have guessed that his special power represented exploding his drow into thousands of little spiders that then attacked the opponent...

True - but that sounds a lot like the Spider-man/Venom problem, right? Reality vs Perception with Perception being key?

[GreyOwl]

Not exactly. My issue with that was that the perception would be we weren't creative enough.

But I do see your point regarding opening a big door to Telepath immunities, and I don't really want to go down that road.

[Griffin]

Part of me wants to just agree with you GO because the change wouldn't "take" anything away form the card. However, Bats has made several excellent points.

[IAmBatman]

Not exactly. My issue with that was that the perception would be we weren't creative enough.

But I do see your point regarding opening a big door to Telepath immunities, and I don't really want to go down that road.

My point is that your issue was that the perception would be negative ... I think the same issue arises here - if the perception is that something doesn't make any sense (because people aren't understanding the thematic thoughts that go behind your putting that line there) then that's a negative perception and something we'd want to avoid, just like the perception of lack of creativity, right?

[Griffin]

So GO, can we count on your vote to move to playtesting? PLEASE! :pray:

[IAmBatman]

TELEKINETIC THROW 12
After moving and before attacking, you may choose Jean Grey or one small or medium destructible object or figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may throw the chosen object or figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement. After the object or figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 1 wound. The thrown object or figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

How's this look? I could see her moving up to about 180 with the changes we've got right now, btw ...

[GreyOwl]

Not exactly. My issue with that was that the perception would be we weren't creative enough.

But I do see your point regarding opening a big door to Telepath immunities, and I don't really want to go down that road.

My point is that your issue was that the perception would be negative ... I think the same issue arises here - if the perception is that something doesn't make any sense (because people aren't understanding the thematic thoughts that go behind your putting that line there) then that's a negative perception and something we'd want to avoid, just like the perception of lack of creativity, right?


I still see them as different. Lack of creativity can be interpreted (perceived) as laziness. Not understanding the thematic aspect of a power won't be seen as lazy, but something else. I'm less concerned about that "something else", but I am concerned if this group is ever perceived to be lazy or not trying hard, because I know that's simply not true.

And in some part, not understanding the full thematic idea behind a power is kind of accepted in Heroscape. I still don't know why Agent Carr can move through figures, for example.


So GO, can we count on your vote to move to playtesting? PLEASE! :pray:

Bats asked Balantai to try it, and he said he would try to do so tonight. Whether he does or not, I think we should at least give him the opportunity. But after giving him a day or so, regardless of if he does or doesn't, then yes, I'm satisfied.

[Confred]

As written I like her at 160 points.

If Grip is amended to affect any figure then her points would raise from 160. I like the idea of her being able to stop other figures. It feels as if she is forcing against the will, affecting their mind. I like this. However, I do not recall her utilizing the 'forcefield' approach - I've always associated that with Invisible Woman or even Green Lantern.. but still it IS cool.
The chance of losing the dice roll, especially after many many are rolled feels awesome, as if she temporarily lost her grip. heh her psychic grip...
But will enduring all the dice rolls be fun? I dunno Dund is fun..
-
I like her weak.
She gets powerful
But that is not iconic
For the later release it will be appropriate and appreciated, for that's what she is known for
By this I mean, I know her from the cartoon. People as me are apart of the audience. Touching both the comic fans and the casuals is creative brilliance.
I like her has this damsel (life 4) trying her hardest to help her friends.
I like her throw
I like her abilities.
Should you create more abilities I will critique and edit the best I can.
Summary:
Grip only your figures - 160 points
Grip any figure - 185 points

Edit: Re - Mindshackling
Controlling another figure is harsh, evil even. I don't even want Xavier doing it. Her Psychic Grip cover her persuading figures from coming no further. Perhaps then the successfully gripped figure ends its turn immediately at that point. It won't affect your units cause its not their turn, but it will leave the opponents temporarily dazed and out of their wits.
Secondly, we've experienced the complaints about throw being too common or whatever semantics whatever.. Mindshackle is so overused. Like three marros and Red Skull? It's a fine ability and fun too. I use the shades even when I shouldn't, but there needs to be a greater buffer until such another unit is released - OR have the mindshackle linked with some awesome stats, other powers, and or intriguing combos of both... but this last segment was quite the tangent.

Edit 2 - I keep thinking instead of sleeping!
Is the comment about if you roll a skull it deals a wound worded 'unofficially'? What happens is perfectly clear and well-written, +; however, is it written the way an official card would?
-
Is the tension of losing the die roll representative enough of her being under difficult mental stress or should there be a clause like subtract 1 from this roll each time she does it in a round.. or something.
-
The card's Race needs changing.

[IAmBatman]

I still see them as different. Lack of creativity can be interpreted (perceived) as laziness. Not understanding the thematic aspect of a power won't be seen as lazy, but something else. I'm less concerned about that "something else", but I am concerned if this group is ever perceived to be lazy or not trying hard, because I know that's simply not true.

If lack of (perceived) creativity would be perceived as laziness, I'm pretty sure lack of (perceived) thematic sense in wording on a card would be perceived as stupidity, carelessness to remain true to a character, or God knows what else. So, maybe not laziness ... but not exactly things I want this group to be perceived as either.
Though, honestly, to be quite frank, I think a lot of you care a lot more about what the community thinks of us or perceives us as than I do. At this point, what I want out of this project is a bunch of really cool cards that I can play with and I have confidence in. If that makes me selfish, so be it. :-P


And in some part, not understanding the full thematic idea behind a power is kind of accepted in Heroscape. I still don't know why Agent Carr can move through figures, for example.

Well I think people are a lot more familiar with the literature behind Jean Grey's character than they are with Agent Carr's. I know I am, and that suggested text still confused me. :-P


Bats asked Balantai to try it, and he said he would try to do so tonight. Whether he does or not, I think we should at least give him the opportunity. But after giving him a day or so, regardless of if he does or doesn't, then yes, I'm satisfied.

Do we still need to give him the opportunity if it's no longer tonight? :-P

[IAmBatman]

Thanks for the feedback, Cornfed! I think she's just going to get a lot more play and the power's going to be a lot more useful if Psionic Grip can affect any figure.
I loosely agree with your thoughts on cost. I'm seeing her at about 180 right now (I think she compares favorably to Beast).

[IAmBatman]

OK - the first post is fully updated with changes to Jean Grey -

Here's a quick summary for the interested:

Suggested cost up to 180 (actually about to do this in a minute here)

Psionic Grip can now prevent any figure from moving or being moved by an opponent.

Telekinetic Throw now allows Jean the chance to throw herself as well.

[GreyOwl]

"Throwing" herself sounds...odd. If she can do it to herself (which is cool), maybe we shouldn't call the power a "throw".

[IAmBatman]

OK ... how about just Telekinesis? I mean, what else would anyone ever do with Telekinesis anyway that's not covered there?

[GreyOwl]

I was JUST about to suggest that. You and your Bat-Telepathy. ;)

[IAmBatman]

OK, so I think that should help with the perception issue, right, since the main problem is people judging a book by its cover (or a power by its title) right?

Edit: Btw, change made. :-D

[GreyOwl]

Yeah, I'm good. Except for the missing space on the first line of Telekinesis. ;) "orone" should be "or one".

[IAmBatman]

Gotcha ... nice catch. :-)

[Hahma]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time Jean Grey or a Destructible Object or a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey would be moved by an opponent, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.


Nice changes fellas. :D Now I might consider including her in my army. :p

In the first sentence, do we need the "or" after Jean Grey? Could a comma work better?

"Any time Jean Grey, a Destructible Object or a figure ........"



Regarding "our public's/fans'" perception of us being lazy because of having similar (yet different) powers on cards, well quite frankly, those people can kiss our collective azzes. They can make a vacation of it by traveling around the world and go on an azz kissing tour. Perhaps they can do it on their honeymoon, or for married folks with kids, make it a family affair and let them join in on the fun too.

I have been playing Heroscape for 4 years now and will have been on this site for 4 years this coming June. Let me tell you, there have always been people/fans whining and beotching about units for some reason or another. Check out the DnD threads to see what's been going on for nearly the last 4 years. It will never stop and just because we are C3G isn't going to make us exempt from the critics and detractors. Nobody likes to be criticized or perceived in a negative way, it's human nature. However, if a business such as Hasbro or WOTC, (who's profits rely on the fan's opinions/perception), can't please everyone, how the heck are we? Last I checked, none of us are getting paid for this. We are creating custom units/rules/maps/scenarios for ourselves and for the community to enjoy. WE are doing the community a great service IMO, and at a cost to them of nothing but a cost to us in a great deal of time and sometimes frustration. If a few people don't appreciate our product, well see above for Azz Kissing World Tour suggestion to them.

The bottom line is that in the comic world, there are many heroes/villains that have the same or similar powers, it's a fact of life regarding this genre. It's not like we're doing a Classic Scape project and creating all new units out of thin air and giving them similar/same powers. We are basing our units on preexisting characters. We shouldn't just add or subtract their powers or make up new ones for them just because they may be the same or similar to others.

I want to create a high quality product and hold us to the high standard that we've held thus far, but if we are doing this in hopes of pleasing everyone, then I'm afraid we'll be sorely disappointed. You could win fifty million dollars in the lottery and give 100K to a friend, family member or charity and they might complain that you didn't give them more.

Now I have to go finish the write up for my Toad playtest. :D

[Griffin]

Hahma, thou art the man!
I agree with everything that you are saying. I think that we should always remember that this project is for us by us, and if we stay true to that, our project will continue to maintain a level of personal integrity that will keep us proud and strong.

[Matt Helm]

TELEKINESIS
After moving and before attacking, you may choose Jean Grey, a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey, or a small or medium destructible object and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may place the chosen object or figure on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. After the object or figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 1 wound. The thrown object or figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Any time Jean Grey, a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey, or a Destructible Object would be moved by an opponent, you may first roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey.
========================================
I think it sounds better that way. I love the changes and I know it sounds stupid, but just by removing the word "Throw" you killed half my concerns about the similarity. The other half was wiped out by yhe wording changes.

I knew you guys would take cars of it while I slept. I'd give you rep if I had it.

[GreyOwl]

Perhaps we should remove the word "throw" from the power text, too, since it's no longer in the title.

[Griffin]

Good points gentlemen. First page updated with:

If you roll a 12 or higher, you may place the chosen object or figure on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement.

[Matt Helm]

What are you talking about... I did... :whistle:

[GreyOwl]

The version in your post still has "throwing damage", "thrown figure", and "thrown object" in it.

[Griffin]

The version in your post still has "throwing damage", "thrown figure", and "thrown object" in it.
I'm on it. :D

~ to the Mod-Mobile!

[Griffin]

How is this?

TELEKINESIS
After moving and before attacking, you may choose Jean Grey, a small or medium destructible object, or a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may place the chosen object or figure on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement. After the object or figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the object or figure receives 1 wound. The object or figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

Does anyone else think that DOs should not take leaving engagement attacks?

[GreyOwl]

That only makes sense! :)

[IAmBatman]

Good job, mod! :thumbsup:

[Griffin]

Good job, mod! :thumbsup:
Give me an M, "M"!
Give me an O, "O"!
Give me an D, "D"!

What does that spell?

:cheer: "MOD"! :cheer:

[IAmBatman]

OK, so we've heard from GreyOwl, Griffin, Balantai, Mr. Helm, and myself thus far on this one. Any thoughts on the current vote from Spidey, Necro, or Hahma? Or are we all just waiting to hear from Balantai before forming any opinions at this point?

[Matt Helm]

Does anyone else not like the order of saying 1) Jean, 2) an object, or 3) another figure. I think it just sounds weird and have proposed that we switch the order to say Jean, another figure, or a destructible object.

[IAmBatman]

The reason we did it like that is to make sure people would only try to throw small or medium objects. It's clear there that the "small or medium" is defining destructible objects and figures both, but it wouldn't be if the order was swapped.

[IAmBatman]

In fact, when I looked back at the most recent changes just now, I realized that it reads as if you can throw a figure of any size, which is not accurate, so I changed it back to this:

"After moving and before attacking, you may choose Jean Grey or a small or medium destructible object or figure"

[Griffin]

OK, so we've heard from GreyOwl, Griffin, Balantai, Mr. Helm, and myself thus far on this one. Any thoughts on the current vote from Spidey, Necro, or Hahma? Or are we all just waiting to hear from Balantai before forming any opinions at this point?
I don't need Balantai's opinion for me to determine that the collaborative effort involved on this card has made her ready for playtesting.

I think with the new changes we should re-propose this card.

I propose moving Jean Grey to playtesting.


Yea

[IAmBatman]

OK, we can do this again, just to keep it on the most recent page. :-P yea #2.

[A3n]

Does anyone else not like the order of saying 1) Jean, 2) an object, or 3) another figure. I think it just sounds weird and have proposed that we switch the order to say Jean, another figure, or a destructible object.

I thought it read funny too, maybe changing the order might fix that.

[IAmBatman]

The reason we did it like that is to make sure people would only try to throw small or medium objects. It's clear there that the "small or medium" is defining destructible objects and figures both, but it wouldn't be if the order was swapped.

In fact, when I looked back at the most recent changes just now, I realized that it reads as if you can throw a figure of any size, which is not accurate, so I changed it back to this:

"After moving and before attacking, you may choose Jean Grey or a small or medium destructible object or figure"

Just to make sure people didn't miss these responses to Matt Helm's comments ...

[Griffin]

In fact, when I looked back at the most recent changes just now, I realized that it reads as if you can throw a figure of any size, which is not accurate, so I changed it back to this:

"After moving and before attacking, you may choose Jean Grey or a small or medium destructible object or figure"
Don't you think that the "or" between Jean Grey and "a small or medium.." is one too many "or"s in the text?

[Griffin]

Btw people, wording issues shouldn't tie up the voting to move to playtesting... Vote already! :p

[IAmBatman]

In fact, when I looked back at the most recent changes just now, I realized that it reads as if you can throw a figure of any size, which is not accurate, so I changed it back to this:

"After moving and before attacking, you may choose Jean Grey or a small or medium destructible object or figure"
Don't you think that the "or" between Jean Grey and "a small or medium.." is one too many "or"s in the text?

No, because the "or" there clearly distinguishes between things that are part of the "a small or medium" clause and things that are not. Otherwise it reads like the "small or medium" is only referring to the Destructible Objects and any sized figure can be thrown, which is not the case.

[Hahma]

yea

[Griffin]

One more... just one more YEA :pray:

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Griffin]

Yahoo! Ready to Playtest!

[IAmBatman]

Jean Grey passes into the playtesting phase.

[GreyOwl]

Yahoo! Ready to Playtest!

Nice to know I can make you happy without you sitting on my lap.8)

[Griffin]

Yahoo! Ready to Playtest!

Nice to know I can make you happy without you sitting on my lap.8)
Sheesh...:|

[Hahma]

Yahoo! Ready to Playtest!

Nice to know I can make you happy without you sitting on my lap.8)
Sheesh...:|

I'm glad I got the floor and not GrewOwl's lap. No offense GO. :D

[GreyOwl]

Just for the record, I don't want any of you guys on my lap! :)

[IAmBatman]

Uh ... no issue with that one here. Blame Captain Underpants, king of the homosexual overtones. :-P

[Griffin]

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Jean Grey

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? YES
TEST 1
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean VS Black Canary
Jean takes a position on height, while Canary circles a tree out of sight to avoid the Psionic Grip. Canary moves in with Fists of Fury and rolls 4 skulls, 3 skulls, then 1 skull, netting Jean a total of 2 wounds. That could have been much worse if Jean hadn't had height. Jean fails to throw Canary but attacks and gives her a wound. Canary attacks and gives Jean 1 wound. Jean throws Canary but fails the damage. Then Jean attacks and gives Canary one more wound. Canary tries to move, but Psionic grip stops her from advancing. She then Cries but fails to harm Jean. Next round, Canary gets initiative and this time manages to engage Jean and rolls 3 skulls then 1 skull, but Jean blocks them all. Jean then throws Canary, fails the damage, but deals 3 more wounds with a huge normal attack.
Jean wins with 3 wounds.

TEST 2
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean Grey VS Batman
Jean takes height, but Batman takes the opposing position from where he can attack with Batarangs but Jean cannot fight back. Batman misses, but the point was to force her to come to him and deal with his fists instead. So Jean advances and tries to throw Batman but cannot, so she attacks and misses. Then Bats rushes in and punches her giving her 3 wounds. Jean retaliates and throw Batman and gives him damage from the fall, then attacks and lands 2 wounds. Next round Batman cannot move due to Psionic Grip and so he throws a Batarang but misses. Then Jean moves onto height next to Batman, attempts to throw, misses, then attacks with 5 skulls, Batman fails his E-Strike and dies.
Jean wins with 3 wounds.

TEST 3
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean Grey VS Sujoah
Jean takes a height position, but Sujoah hides behind a tree in preparation to ambush Jean and avoid the Grip. But Jean gets antsy and moves up and attacks Sujoah and lands 3 wounds. Then Sujoah moves up to attack on height, and since the terrain was difficult, this would be the only chance Sujoah would get to roll a normal attack on height, so he does and connects with 3 wounds on Jean. Jean climbs up and attacks sujoah and lands one more wound. Sujoah goes for his poison attack but fails since jean was on height. Next round Jean goes first and kills Sujoah with an attack of 4 skulls out of 5 dice!
Jean wins with 3 wounds.

TEST 4
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean Grey VS Joker
Joker moves up as far as he can. Jean takes her height position. Joker notices he has better range, so he moves up a mountain taking height on Jean and forcing her to come at him. Joker attacks on that height but misses. Jean advances on him but remains at height disadvantage and she fails her throw and attack. Joker then rolls for Wanna Hear Another and connects with a wound, then another. Next round Jean moves up on height, fails her throw, but attacks and gives Joker 3 wounds. Joker tries to move but couldn't due to the Grip. Joker attacks with Wanna Hear another but fails. Jean throws Joker, he takes a wound from the damage, then she attacks him and gives him 1 wound, putting him one away from death. Joker rolls for Wanna Hear Another and connects with a wound, then another for the kill.
Joker wins with 5 wounds.

TEST 5
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean VS Q9
Jean rushes in to try and close the distance on Q9's range quickly. Q9 moves up and attacks with a special attack, Jean takes 1 total wound. Jean moves up the adjacent hill and attacks with height and gives Q9 3 wounds with a normal attack! Then Q9 tries to move up to avoid the height advantage but she stops him in his tracks with Grip. He attacks again and gives her 1 wound. Jean now moves up and engages Q9 and takes a height that she would have for the rest of the game. She fails her attack, and Q9 gives her another wound. One whole round goes by with neither Hero taking any wounds. Then jean gets initiative and rolls 2 skulls but Q9 only rolled 1.
Jean wins with 3 wounds.

I know that she kinda dominated these tests, but I still think that she is 180 because of her potential glass jaw and defense powers. Even though Black Canary who has the same life and defense value, deserves the 190 because of her extreme offensive nature being able to balance out the potential of a devastating single hit of 4 wounds, where Jean doesn't. In the Joker test you can see that even the Joker had what it took to give her 4 wounds.

- Squad/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean Grey VS X3 Marro Stingers
Stinger fan out in order to surround the Mutant. Jean Grey rushes in but cannot find a target. Stingers take height and fire away with 2 wounds, then 1 wound, then a miss. Jean runs up a hill and kills one with a normal attack. 3 stingers surround the hill and fire but miss Red on height. Next round Red throws one away and kills it, then blasts another and kills it. Stinger try and regroup but fail to get to Jean or just fail the attack. Jean then advances a tad and throws another one, but fails the damage, then attacks it and kills it. Then the stingers roll an 18 for the drain and attack her and kill her.
Stingers win with 5 left.

- Melee Based Army/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean, Crixus, and Hawkgirl VS Abomination, Spiderman, and Marcu
Jean moves up a bit and throws Crixus onto a nice height location. Spidey swings towards the Mutant. Hawkgirl swoops up and takes the high point on a near by mountain. Then Spidey moves up again and misses his Web attack on Jean. Jean takes a good location where she is in a posistion to throw either Crixus or Hawkgirl if necessary. Abomination leaps up, but just hangs out on a mountain side ready to run in next round. Abomb moves up and attacks Crixus, but Crixus rolls 1 shield, and nets one total wound. Jean fails her throw of Spidey, but attacks him and gives him a wound. Spidey swing out and misses on Crixus with his web. Crixus deals three wounds to Abomb. Abomb then tries to move towards Jean, but he couldn't because of the Grip. Jean then throws Spidey away giving him another wound, then another with an attack. Next round, Abomb disengages safely from Crixus and engages Jean, and gives her 2 wounds. Crixus moves in and attacks Spidey but misses rolling zero skulls. Abomb attacks Jean again only giving her one wound. Then Jean throws Abomb into Crixus who has height and he takes another wound from throwing damage, but Jean fails the attack. Abomb tries to take a leaving engagement strike from Crixus, but Jean prevented him from moving with her Psionic Grip. So Abomb attacked up at Crixus who takes a single wound. Then Crixus attacks Abomb and puts him one wound away from death. Next round, Abomb opens it up by finally killing Crixus, Then Hawkgirl swoops in and kills Abomb and Spider man with a double attack! Jean runs towards Marcu in the start zone and then she successfully throws herself up on top of the mountain looking down at him. Spidey lost his team a turn with his death, so Jean throws Hawkgirl up the mountain right next to her. Next round, Marcu moves up and attacks Jean but fails. Then HG gives him 4 wounds! Marcu kills Jean Grey and reduces his damage down to three. HG then kills Marcu.
Hawkgirl wins with 0 wounds.

Crixus' ability to soak so much damage off of Abomb, while Jean forced Abomb to stay engaged with only Crixus really made this team work well.

- Ranged Based Army/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Jean, Pyro, Death Reavers X2, Nakita Agents VS Dr Doom, Green Arrow, Krav Maga
The Krav moved up and so did the Nakitas. Then GA moved up and skill shot Pyro for two wounds. Jean moved up and then Telkin-threw herself up to the top of the mountain. Dr Doom moved up and tried to Mind E with GA but failed. Then the Death Reavers moved up. Next round the Reavers tied up GA and DD. Pyro moved up and attack one of his own Rats to get his chain of fire SA going and he gave GA two wounds and none to DD. DD then took a wound by leaving engagement with the Rat, but he moved towards Jean, attacked and missed. Then Jean threw DD and gave him his second wound, followed up with Jean killing an engaged Krav agent. DD killed a rat. Jean then threw DD adjacent to Pyro, but she failed her damage roll and her attack on him. Next round Pyro got initiative and engulfed DD giving him his third wound. Then DD attacked and missed Pyro, but he successfully Mind E with Jean again and forced her to thorw and kill a rat, then attack and kill Pyro. Death Reavers took a turn and surrounded DD and GA and they were able to kill GA. Then DD Attacked Jean and gave her two wounds, then rolled a 20 to Mind E! This time Jean was forced to throw herself at DD's feet at height disadvantage and then roll for damage which she took. Nakitas moved up and killed DD. Then the lone Krav killed a single Nakita. Next round the Nakitas killed the Krav agent.
2 Nakitas, 1 Rat, and Jean win with 3 wounds on Jean.


I played all of my tests at 180 and Jean really felt like a bargain at that price if you being very tactical and especially if you build an army that will complement and showcase her powers. Most of the time, Jean really felt like 200 for me, possibly because I had some good luck, I don't know. But it is because of her ability to be destroyed in one hit that makes me lean towards maintaining the price of 180.

[IAmBatman]

I dunno ... beating Q9, Batman, and Black Canary is making her feel like 190 to me ... but the team tests will be the real test. I was feeling 190 for Cyclops after the hero tests as well, but now I'm starting to think 180 again.

[Griffin]

I dunno ... beating Q9, Batman, and Black Canary is making her feel like 190 to me ... but the team tests will be the real test. I was feeling 190 for Cyclops after the hero tests as well, but now I'm starting to think 180 again.
As much as I don't want her cost to go up, you may be right. It is just that life of 4 that really scares me. At least BC can beat the crap out of you really fast, but in this test she was out matched.... so.. :shrug:

[Griffin]

And those tests were always close...

[Hahma]

I dunno ... beating Q9, Batman, and Black Canary is making her feel like 190 to me ... but the team tests will be the real test. I was feeling 190 for Cyclops after the hero tests as well, but now I'm starting to think 180 again.
As much as I don't want her cost to go up, you may be right. It is just that life of 4 that really scares me. At least BC can beat the crap out of you really fast, but in this test she was out matched.... so.. :shrug:


Sounds like she did really well vs. heroes and not too bad vs. Stingers. But things can change during army tests. I don't have a problem with her being priced higher if need be if she's solid at that cost. Even non-Phoenix, she's still a pretty powerful mutant, so from a theme standpoint, I wouldn't be for powering her down to get to a lower cost.

I'll probably make her my next test subject, getting a little done today and throughout the week.

[Hahma]

I managed to get one HH test with her vs. Zelrig before heading out for a while with the family. She took him out on t1 of r3. The fun thing was that Zelrig had the first turn of round 1 and moved out to 2 level height. JG moved but was 5 spaces away from Zelrig, so she attempted to move herself again with Telekinesis and succeeded, allowing her to move to height and two spaces from Zelrig and getting to attack with height, putting on a couple wounds.

Anyway, it was a great addition to allow her to attempt to move herself with Telekinesis, especially since it's thematic as she was able to "float/fly" with telekinesis in X-Factor.

Fun so far and can't wait to see what else she can do.

[Griffin]

I managed to get one HH test with her vs. Zelrig before heading out for a while with the family. She took him out on t1 of r3. The fun thing was that Zelrig had the first turn of round 1 and moved out to 2 level height. JG moved but was 5 spaces away from Zelrig, so she attempted to move herself again with Telekinesis and succeeded, allowing her to move to height and two spaces from Zelrig and getting to attack with height, putting on a couple wounds.

Anyway, it was a great addition to allow her to attempt to move herself with Telekinesis, especially since it's thematic as she was able to "float/fly" with telekinesis in X-Factor.

Fun so far and can't wait to see what else she can do.
Cool. Not only can she fly with telekinesis, but it is a stealth flying move as well! 8)

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I'm really happy we made that addition to it, so she can get something out of the throw power even when there's no one else around to throw! An extra stealth flying move of four spaces after her initial move can really make a big difference sometimes, I bet!
I've got one more test on Cyclops still, but I might just hop on her before I finish that one so that she'll get done and I can add her to my ranged army test of Cyclops (I'm really dying to try out his Telepathic Rapport!).

[IAmBatman]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Jean Grey
(please only use red print for all of your responses)

C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
For this section, no play testing is required, only comment below if necessary. This is a guideline for things that you should be looking for as you play-test.
- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them. PASS
- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game. PASS
- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding. PASS
- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak. PASS
- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and what are the stipulations on the power if there are any. PASS

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
(Be sure to list what units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)
All tests done on Sidewinder
- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass?
List your Heavy Hitter Test observations.
Jean Grey vs. SotM Drake
Drake won initiative in round 2 and put 3 wounds on Jean Grey to end the game. In Round 1, Jean put 2 wounds on him with her normal attack and one with her Telekinesis. It was definitely cool using her Telekinesis to launch her forward over a water obstacle in the early going. Drake's attack of 6 in melee was too much for her, though, and she couldn't get the Psionic Grip rolls to stop him from engaging.
List your Heavy Hitter Test observations.
Jean Grey vs. Q9
The dice were heavily favoring Q9 here. Jean had height on the soulborg the whole time thanks in no small part to her Telekinesis letting her fly in short bursts, but it wasn't enough to counter 3 skull and 5 shield rolls. Jean couldn't put any wounds on Q9 and fell to his special attack on the last Order Marker of the round.
She's done nothing to impress me in the hero tests thus far, but the dice also haven't really been on her side. Right now she's feeling more like 160 than 180!
List your Heavy Hitter Test observations.
Jean Grey vs. Black Canary
Jean won a close one here! Her Psionic Grip stopped Black Canary from engaging for some Fists of Fury action that might have taken Jean out. Restricted to just her special attack, Canary put 3 wounds on Jean. Jean used her Telekinesis to put one wound on Canary and put the other three wounds on with her normal attack from height. Jean finished the game on the last Order Marker of round one.
I'm feeling a little better about 180 at this point - she felt decently evenly matched with Canary. Jean's one of those units, though, where if she gets her D20 rolls, she's pretty fierce, but she's going to fail them plenty as well. Right now I'm feeling 170-180 - definitely not 190 for me yet.
List your Heavy Hitter Test observations.
Jean Grey vs. Batman
Jean lost on the first Order Marker of round 2 - and it was her Order Marker! She got hit by Evasive Strike twice. She did put in two wounds on him with her Telekinesis, but she couldn't hit him with her normal attack at all.
So she's no Batman, in my book, but I could see 180. She felt competitive at least.
List your Heavy Hitter Test observations.
Jean Grey vs. Nilfheim
Jean just couldn't many wounds on the big dragon. He did not share her futility. Nilfheim won this one with a single wound on turn 2 of round 2.
After the heavy hitter tests, I'm feeling 180 as the ceiling, and I could see 170 right now as well.

- Squad/ Does it pass?
List your Squad Test observations.
Jean Grey vs. Warriors of Ashra x4
Thanks to some pretty hot rolling for Psionic Grip in a certain part of the game, Jean managed to put away 11 of the 12 Warriors of Ashra in this one. So she definitely has nice potential against melee squads (she killed 4 with her throw and 7 with her attack - mostly from range thanks to Psionic Grip keeping WoA away from her). Her better mobility thanks to Telekinesis and Psionic Grip also let her claim height for the entire match.
Then I played this a second time, the Psionic Grip rolls weren't as reliable, and Jean fell after killing only 5 WoA. So I'm thinking that she should be 180 on potential right now. Maybe her synergies in the army tests will make me think she should be higher, but 180 is feeling pretty good.

- Melee Based Army/ Does it pass?
List your Melee Army Test observations.
Jean Grey, Warriors of Ashra x4, Arkmer, Kyntella Gwyn vs. KoW x3, Sir Gilbert, Sir Denrick, Eldgrim
Warriors of Ashra won this one, but Jean was a nice complementary piece. Her team won with a full life Arkmer, two squads of Warriors of Ashra, and a 2 life Jean Grey. The WoA killed 9 KoW and absorbed most of their attacks (though Jean's Psionic Grip prevented many of those from occurring). Jean took care of three KoW and Eldgrim, and put one wound on Sir Denrick, and two on Sir Gilbert. Only Gilbert got a wound from Telekinesis. The rest of the time, Jean used Telekinesis to move WoA or Kyntella Gwyn into position. Though it was a clear victory, Jean only killed 138 points worth of enemies (but she clearly assisted in some others). As I said before, it was the WoA that seemed to account for the victory gap. Nothing here makes me think Jean is worth more than that 180 points.


- Ranged Based Army/ Does it pass?
List your Ranged Army Test observations.
Jean Grey, Nakita Agents, Krav Maga and Ratsx2 vs. 4th Mass x3, MacDirk Warriors x2, Alastair
Another win for Jean's team with Jean playing a limited role at best. Three Krav Maga Agents and Jean (with one life) survived for the win. The Valiant team felt like they were in it the whole time - partially due to Jean's poor D20 rolls and partially due to the Order Marker problems her team had. Still, the Nakitas (2 MacDirks, 3 wounds on Alastair, 2 squads of 4th Mass), the Krav (6 MacDirks), and the Rats (three 4th Mass) all cleaned up offensively. Jean finished off Alastair with a throw and killed a 4th Mass with her normal attack. She didn't manage any other successful rolls for throw damage (and few successful throws) and didn't manage any other kills with her attack. Her team performed well, but this was no blow out and Jean didn't feel unbalanced in this army at all.
I still like her at 180. I saw nothing here to make me think her cost should be raised or lowered from that.

[Adam Souza]

Knocked this out for my own enjoyment

*edited by Griffin: Your card look great, but since A3N just posted the new version of Jean (which can be found on the first page), I don't want to confuse anyone as to which card is being revised and edited.

I don't like playing without a datacard.

P.S. I added the C3G playtest to give credit where it's due, and so people wouldn't confuse it with my own creations.

[Hahma]

Nice looking card Adam Souza:D

Anyway, here's what I have so far for Jean Grey

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT ___Jean Grey @ 180 pts__

C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass, if not, list your Theme Check observations. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass, if not, list your Mirror Check observations. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass, if not, list your Bonding Check observations. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass, if not, list your Synergy Check observations. Pass
- Power/ Does it pass, if not, list your Power Check observations. Pass
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
(Be sure to list what official units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)

-Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass Pass
-
-Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh all tests.

Jean Grey vs. Zelrig
-
-Test 1 Jean Grey won with 1 wound on turn 1 of round 3.
-Test 2 Zelrig won with 4 wounds on turn 1 of round 3.

In test 1, JG was able to use Telekenis to move herself to height after her initial move and put her in range to attack with height vs. Zelrig and put a couple wounds on him. Zelrig had to settle for ranged attacks often and in the second test, he was rolling pretty good 3 dice attacks with Mystic Fire to chip away and wound her as she was having bad dice luck. .

Played against SOTM Drake on same map.

Test 1 Drake won with 2 wounds on turn 1 of round 4.
Test 2 Drake won with 2 wounds on turn 2 of round 2.

The first match lasted quite awhile as JG threw Drake a couple times but failed to wound him with Telekinesis. She couldn’t affect him with her normal ranged attack. She used Psionic Grip a couple times to stop his move to engage her, but like Zelrig, he got lucky with 3 attack dice rolls for his pistol. She failed to stop his move or throw him in the second match at one point and he was able to finish her off with his sword. He’s a tough opponent for her with Thorian Speed and being able to grapple adjacent to her when in range of her powers. .

Played against Black Canary on same map

Test 1 Jean Grey won with 0 wounds on turn 6 of round 1.
Test 2 Black Canary won with 2 wounds on turn 1 of round 2.

In the first match, JG was able to throw BC twice and put a wound on her each time. She was also in range for her attack and had height, which allowed her to put the other 2 wounds on BC and she was able to use PG to keep BC from moving once. The second match was nearly the opposite with JG not being able to throw BC or wound her with ranged attack and she couldn’t stop BC’s movement with PG. So BC was able to get adjacent and pound JG in two turns with FOF.


-Squad/ Does it pass? Pass
-
-Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh

Jean Grey vs. Armoc Vipers x 3 (195)

5 Vipers survive to win on turn 1 of round 3. JG once again seems to have luck on her first throw attempt of herself to get into good position of height. However, she failed to throw Vipers on all 5 attempts and had to rely on normal attack to kill 4 of them. Her Psionic Grip slowed them down on occasion but also failed her at the end, allowing 3 Vipers to get around her for last 3 turns. When she had stopped 1 or 2 earlier, others moved up instead from starting zone to add support. There was no place that JG could have gone that the Vipers couldn't get to her and surround her with even more, their move of 7 and Slither allowed them to close in on her really fast when PG failed her. As it was, she was on a 3 space 4 level of height adjacent to water(5 level high) all game long and could only get attacked by 2 same level opponents and 1 lower level opponent. That was the best spot for her but her Telekinesis failing 5 times really hurt her bad, even had she succeed 3 times and killed 1 or 2 of them with it, it would have helped keep them off her longer. The Vipers had more points and she rolled poor d20. Her defense and ranged attack helped a lot, so I think overall she did pretty good against a really fast opponent's group of squads.

Also played vs. 4th Mass x2 on the same map.

Game 1 - 5 4th Mass survive to win on turn 3 of round 2. JG went at them aggressively and she was able to Throw them only 1 out of 3 attempts and didn't wound/kill the one she threw. She killed all 3 with range and height advantage. Bad d20 roll game.

Game 2 - Jean Grey won with 3 wounds on turn 5 of round 3. She took a more conservative strategy this time and tried to face fewer return attacks if possible and force them to move on occasion instead of facing Wait and Fire every time. She had better D20 luck and was able to Throw 5 of 6 times and rolled high enough to kill 3 of 5 Thrown 4th Mass. Here ranged attack was nice too, so she was able on a couple turns kill one with Throw and one with normal attack. Much better strategy and D20 luck.

Melee Army/ Does it pass? Pass
-
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh

Jean Grey (180) Sentinels of Jandar x2 (220) Krug (120) Marcu (20) for 540 points.

They went against Hawkgirl (225) Armoc Vipers x 3 (195) and Venoc Warlard (120) for 540 points.

Jean Grey with 3 wounds, Krug with 7 wounds, 2 Sentinels of Jandar and Marcu survived to win on turn 5 of round 5. JG was able to Throw opponents 2 of 4 times, on one of those Throws she was able to put a wound on Venoc Warlard and then put 2 more wounds on him later with normal attack. She killed 3 Armoc Vipers with normal attack. Psionic Grip worked one time on one try. A pair Sentinels got lucky on the first turn of round 2 when they combined to put 4 wounds on Hawkgirl. This caused her to waste OM's to get out of harm's way and then maximize her OM's later with long Swoops and double attacks, but it certainly hampered her team. Venoc Warlord and Armocs tried to swarm Krug and take him out early but the Vipers kept getting killed by Sentinels and Jean Grey. Eventually Krug had a lot of wounds on him and just killed everything in sight. Hawkgirl was able to put 3 wounds on JG before Krug killed her.


-Ranged Army/ Does it pass? Pass
-
-Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.

Jean Grey (180) Q10 (150) and 4th Mass x3 (210) for 540 points

They went against Protectors of Ullar x 3 (330) Kaemon Awa (120) and Atlaga (90)
for 540 points.

3 Protectors and Atlaga with 0 wounds survive to win on turn 3 of round 4. Jean Grey only got activated one time on turn 5 of round 3 and failed to Throw a POU and failed to kill one with her normal attack. The following turn the POU used height and Combined Arbalest to put take her out in one turn. The 4th Mass had been doing fairly well vs. POU and Kaemon Awa, but Q10 was horrible. He got in position to attack POU with height so he could attack 4 with Rockets vs. 4 def (3 +1 for height). In 3 activations with him and 6 attacks of 4, he only killed 1 POU before they killed him. Had he at least taken out 3 of 6, it would have made a big difference as the POU's wouldn't be able to all be close enough to use CA on him and Jean Grey.
POU are definitely hero killers and with their extra move and getting to height, they always had equal or better attacks than JG's team and often a defense of 4 because of height. They did what they should do and Q10 didn't do his job for JG to have time to have success.

Analysis - I feel that JG is pretty balanced at 180 points. She will be more effective some situations vs certain opponents and she won't do well at times either against certain opponents and situations. She can go on droughts with her d20 but still have her decent normal ranged attack and pretty good defense, but she can also be devastating with a string of good d20 rolls. It's cool too that if there's no one to attack, she can try to extend her move by using Telekinesis Throw on herself to get her int a good position. She was fun to play.

[Griffin]

I just updated my playtest form with the Melee army test.

[Griffin]

New Card on the front page. Thanks A3N!

[Hahma]

I just updated my playtest form with the Melee army test.

Awesome

New Card on the front page. Thanks A3N!

Yes, thanks A3n.

I updated my test sheet with squad test.

[Rich10]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT ___Jean Grey @ 180 points__
C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass, if not, list your Theme Check observations. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass, if not, list your Mirror Check observations. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass, if not, list your Bonding Check observations. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass, if not, list your Synergy Check observations. Pass
-Power/ Does it pass, if not, list your Power Check observations. Pass

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
Played on a map with a small hill and a four trees at the corners of a clearing at the top of the hill.[/font]
Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? PASS
Played against Krug (120 points)
Test 1 Krug wins with 4 lives left
Bad matchup for Jean Grey.

Played against Crixus (90)
Test 1 Jean wins with 2 lives left
Jean was successful with throw.

Played against Major Q9 (180)
Test 1 Q9 won with 3 lives left
Q gun ripped through Jean. She doesn't do well against large figures.

Played against Venom (150)
Test 1 Jean won with 1 life left.
Test 2 Venom won with 2 lives left.
These were close matchups and could have gone either way.

Played against Sgt Drake SOTM (170)
Test 1 Jean won with 2 lives.
Test 2 Jean won with 1 life left.
Successful throws and attacks. Both matches were close. In the second matchup, Drake only got one skull out of 6 attack dice.

Jean does well against most heroes, but she doesn't do well against large/huge figures.

-Squad/ Does it pass? Fail

Test 1- Jean Grey (180) vs. Stingers x 3
Stingers win easily, 7 Stingers remain.

Test 2- Jean Grey (180) vs. Blade Gruts x 4
Jean is swarmed and taken down. 11 Blade gruts remain.

Test 3- Jean Grey (180) vs. Minions x 2
Can flying figures be thrown? I assume they could because the card is silent on this. Minions win with 2 remaining.

To be fair, most heroes that do not have good multiple attacks will fail.

-Melee Army/ Does it pass? Pass

Test 1- Jean Grey, Sgt Drake ROTV, Charos vs. Sir Gilbert, KOW x 3, Retiarius, Crixus
Charos takes out Gilbert and 5 KOW. Jean Grey take out 6 KOW and puts two wounds on Crixus before falling to Crixus. The ability to "throw" herself to height was of limited use because I preferred to use the attack. Retiarius takes out Sgt Drake for the win.

Against a tough opponent, this was a close battle. - Pass

-Range Army/ Does it pass? Pass

Test 1- Jean Grey, Agent Skahen, Raelin ROTV, Stingers x 2 vs. MDG, 10th Reg x 2, Captain America, Eldgrim
The CapAm army tries to set up a pod with Cap and MDG surrounded by 10th. Agent Skahen supported by Raelin snipes away. The 10th leave their formation and attack Raelin taking her out. They put a wound on Skahen and Jean Grey before Skahen wipes them out. The Stingers attack Cap America and put two wounds on him. Cap responds with shield throw and takes out three. The Stingers get another wound and Cap takes out two more. Jean Grey throws Cap and puts another wounds on him. Cap is unable to move, but attacks with shield throw which is defended by Jean Grey. Jean Grey throws Cap and take him out with regular attack. Jean Grey tries to throw MDG and fails but puts two wounds on him. MDG rushes Jean and causes a wound. MDG dies after giving Jean another wound. Jean throws and uses a ranged attack to kill Eldgrim.

Jean Grey played well in this. She consistently got throw and took out a lot of points. - Pass

Overall, she is fun to play and worth 180 points. She struggles against squads, but wo will most heroes without a strong multiple attack.

[Griffin]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT ___Jean Grey @ 180 points__
C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass, if not, list your Theme Check observations. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass, if not, list your Mirror Check observations. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass, if not, list your Bonding Check observations. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass, if not, list your Synergy Check observations. Pass
-Power/ Does it pass, if not, list your Power Check observations. Pass

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
Played on a map with a small hill and a four trees at the corners of a clearing at the top of the hill.[/font]
Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? PASS
Played against Krug (120 points)
Test 1 Krug wins with 4 lives left
Bad matchup for Jean Grey.

Played against Crixus (90)
Test 1 Jean wins with 2 lives left
Jean was successful with throw.

Played against Major Q9 (180)
Test 1 Q9 won with 3 lives left
Q gun ripped through Jean. She doesn't do well against large figures.

Played against Venom (150)
Test 1 Jean won with 1 life left.
Test 2 Venom won with 2 lives left.
These were close matchups and could have gone either way.

Played against Sgt Drake SOTM (170)
Test 1 Jean won with 2 lives.
Test 2 Jean won with 1 life left.
Successful throws and attacks. Both matches were close. In the second matchup, Drake only got one skull out of 6 attack dice.

Jean does well against most heroes, but she doesn't do well against large/huge figures.

-Squad/ Does it pass? Fail

Test 1- Jean Grey (180) vs. Stingers x 3
Stingers win easily, 7 Stingers remain.

Test 2- Jean Grey (180) vs. Blade Gruts x 4
Jean is swarmed and taken down. 11 Blade gruts remain.

Test 3- Jean Grey (180) vs. Minions x 2
Can flying figures be thrown? I assume they could because the card is silent on this. Minions win with 2 remaining.

All of those results seem to be pretty accurate when compared to what Bats and I have separately found as well.
Did she at least ever stop any figure from moving, or give herself Stealth Flying? If someone like Krug (melee double spaced figure) manages to engage her, she can "stealth fly" away from him with Telekinesis, attack from range, and hopefully use Grip on him when it becomes his turn to prevent him from engaging her again. Did you ever try any of that? If not, be sure to do so in your army tests, it is a very helpful tactic.


And to answer your question: Yes. Flying figures can be thrown.

[GreyOwl]

And to answer your question: Yes. Flying figures can be thrown.

Because it's not a "throw". ;)

[IAmBatman]

Yep, so they can be telekinesised ...

[GreyOwl]

Which means they're telekinesisable...

[Hahma]

Which means they're telekinesisable...


When taking notes during testing, I just wrote, "JG attempted to fly after her normal move" or "She attempted to throw the opponent" It was weird trying to say she "Telekinesed" herself or "Telekinesed" an opponent. I guess "move" would work to. :D

[Rich10]

All of those results seem to be pretty accurate when compared to what Bats and I have separately found as well.
Did she at least ever stop any figure from moving, or give herself Stealth Flying? If someone like Krug (melee double spaced figure) manages to engage her, she can "stealth fly" away from him with Telekinesis, attack from range, and hopefully use Grip on him when it becomes his turn to prevent him from engaging her again. Did you ever try any of that? If not, be sure to do so in your army tests, it is a very helpful tactic.


And to answer your question: Yes. Flying figures can be thrown.I thought that flying figures should be able to be thrown because they are being telekinetically pushed. I used telekinetic throw on Jean Grey to gain height a few times against large figures. Against medium figures, I tried to throw the opposing figure. Psionic Grip is good, but most ranged figures will be able to reach beyond the 4 clear sight hexes. It helped a couple of times against Drake.

Jean does well against heroes (particularly medium). Like most expensive heroes, she struggles against squads (particularly cheap squads).

[Griffin]

My Playtest form is finished for Jean!

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Great card A3N! Can we consider the third picture though. First off, I think the mini is not very good looking (compare it to the comic art!) but at least the third one is not too bad.

[IAmBatman]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT ___Jean Grey @ 180 points__
C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass, if not, list your Theme Check observations. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass, if not, list your Mirror Check observations. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass, if not, list your Bonding Check observations. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass, if not, list your Synergy Check observations. Pass
-Power/ Does it pass, if not, list your Power Check observations. Pass

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
Played on a map with a small hill and a four trees at the corners of a clearing at the top of the hill.[/font]
Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? PASS
Played against Krug (120 points)
Test 1 Krug wins with 4 lives left
Bad matchup for Jean Grey.

Played against Crixus (90)
Test 1 Jean wins with 2 lives left
Jean was successful with throw.

Played against Major Q9 (180)
Test 1 Q9 won with 3 lives left
Q gun ripped through Jean. She doesn't do well against large figures.

Played against Venom (150)
Test 1 Jean won with 1 life left.
Test 2 Venom won with 2 lives left.
These were close matchups and could have gone either way.

Played against Sgt Drake SOTM (170)
Test 1 Jean won with 2 lives.
Test 2 Jean won with 1 life left.
Successful throws and attacks. Both matches were close. In the second matchup, Drake only got one skull out of 6 attack dice.

Jean does well against most heroes, but she doesn't do well against large/huge figures.

-Squad/ Does it pass? Fail

Test 1- Jean Grey (180) vs. Stingers x 3
Stingers win easily, 7 Stingers remain.

Test 2- Jean Grey (180) vs. Blade Gruts x 4
Jean is swarmed and taken down. 11 Blade gruts remain.

Test 3- Jean Grey (180) vs. Minions x 2
Can flying figures be thrown? I assume they could because the card is silent on this. Minions win with 2 remaining.

To be fair, most heroes that do not have good multiple attacks will fail.

-Melee Army/ Does it pass? Pass

Test 1- Jean Grey, Sgt Drake ROTV, Charos vs. Sir Gilbert, KOW x 3, Retiarius, Crixus
Charos takes out Gilbert and 5 KOW. Jean Grey take out 6 KOW and puts two wounds on Crixus before falling to Crixus. The ability to "throw" herself to height was of limited use because I preferred to use the attack. Retiarius takes out Sgt Drake for the win.

Against a tough opponent, this was a close battle. - Pass

-Range Army/ Does it pass? Pass

Test 1- Jean Grey, Agent Skahen, Raelin ROTV, Stingers x 2 vs. MDG, 10th Reg x 2, Captain America, Eldgrim
The CapAm army tries to set up a pod with Cap and MDG surrounded by 10th. Agent Skahen supported by Raelin snipes away. The 10th leave their formation and attack Raelin taking her out. They put a wound on Skahen and Jean Grey before Skahen wipes them out. The Stingers attack Cap America and put two wounds on him. Cap responds with shield throw and takes out three. The Stingers get another wound and Cap takes out two more. Jean Grey throws Cap and puts another wounds on him. Cap is unable to move, but attacks with shield throw which is defended by Jean Grey. Jean Grey throws Cap and take him out with regular attack. Jean Grey tries to throw MDG and fails but puts two wounds on him. MDG rushes Jean and causes a wound. MDG dies after giving Jean another wound. Jean throws and uses a ranged attack to kill Eldgrim.

Jean Grey played well in this. She consistently got throw and took out a lot of points. - Pass



I see this is all finished now! Looks like all passes except the squad test. Are you feeling Jean Grey at 180 points, Rich10?

[Rich10]

I see this is all finished now! Looks like all passes except the squad test. Are you feeling Jean Grey at 180 points, Rich10?She passes. She's fun to play and has abilities that fit with the comic books. She struggles against squads, but so does any hero without an attack that can hit three or four squad members. Overall, it is a definite pass at 180 points.

[IAmBatman]

Thanks for the clarification! :thumbsup:

[Scapemage]

on the un-finalized card pic., it says Jean Gray nder species.

[Griffin]

on the un-finalized card pic., it says Jean Gray nder species.
Thanks for that, we will be putting these cards under extreme scrutiny very soon.

Also, in your post, is says "nder" after Jean Grey.:p

[GreyOwl]

Don't worry about checking for that stuff until after I get it on cards, because anything could go wrong during that process. :)

[Griffin]

Don't worry about checking for that stuff until after I get it on cards, because everything will go wrong during that process. :)Fixed. :p

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Looks like the love affair is over!!! ;)

[GreyOwl]

It never started! :)

[Griffin]

It never started! :)
Oh really? Did we, or did we not talk on the phone for over an hour on Valentines day? I thought we had something special, but if that is how you feel, I want my mixed tape that I gave you back. :lol:

[GreyOwl]

Hey, that's not fair! You said I could keep the mix tape forever, so I'm not giving it back! :)

And I'm also keeping the flowers and chocolates, too...

[A3n]

Great card A3N! Can we consider the third picture though. First off, I think the mini is not very good looking (compare it to the comic art!) but at least the third one is not too bad.

Actually out of the 3 posted that is the most washed out & least detailed in terms of colour. I chose based on the quality of colour & definition. But if somebody wants to take a better photo in that position then I can certainly put it on the card. (you might want to ask Bats or Hahma how much trouble you would be getting yourself into first - it's not an easy job :p)

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

But it's sure a great way to show you're an awesome contributor. :-)

[Griffin]

In fact Spidey, if you take up the art of Photography like Peter Parker, I may even suggest that you get the subname "Spectacularly Awesome".
I did get GO the subname "Caretaker of the Custom Realm", so I have had some real success there, but I can't promise anything other than I will try. :)

[Hahma]

Actually out of the 3 posted that is the most washed out & least detailed in terms of colour. I chose based on the quality of colour & definition. But if somebody wants to take a better photo in that position then I can certainly put it on the card. (you might want to ask Bats or Hahma how much trouble you would be getting yourself into first - it's not an easy job :p)

Cheers

For me, I didn't have the best lighting and neither camera I tried was very good at Macro Photography. Considering my camera is nearly 7 years old, I guess I'm lucky it does as good as it does. The sad thing is that I paid like $500 for it way back when and now I could get a better camera for under $200 probably. :D



Also, to Bats, I added 2 squad tests (for 3 total) to the test sheet for JG. I'll get to the army tests and add it to test sheet by the end of the week. So far though, I think she seems pretty good at 180 points.

[IAmBatman]

I'm digging her at 180 too. :-)

[GreyOwl]

Make sure you use the Macro mode on your camera (if it has one). Without that, close-ups will never look that good.

[Hahma]

Make sure you use the Macro mode on your camera (if it has one). Without that, close-ups will never look that good.


Did that, but like I said, it's an old camera and not the best. I'm sure lack of good lighting hurt the cause too.



Also Bats and Griff, I finished rest of JG (just finished ranged army test) and will update test sheet tonight. But she passes everything at 180, so if you want to move her on to the next phase, you have my YEA.

[Griffin]

Could someone please give some info on a camera that is affordable but good at taking pics of figures?

[GreyOwl]

I use Canon Powershots, but they're not cheapest. They're like a middle ground between consumer and pro level. The current model is the G10 and they run around $400-500. However, older models, even the G1 (which I also had), were quite good at macro work. You may be able to find a G1 for quite a bit less, but I haven't checked.

[Hahma]

Got rest of Jean's tests done last night and before work this morning. I just updated her test sheet to make it complete.

[IAmBatman]

Well, with one yea already there, I propose we finalize Jean Grey's cost at 180.

[Griffin]

I third that Proposal. Yea

[IAmBatman]

Could we get a fourth?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Trying to abstain because I haven't playtested, but looks like all of you have weighed in, so who am I to disagree? Yea.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Jean Grey pics. Are they any good? Any advise on taking pics would be helpful.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/X-Men%20Minis/HeroscapeX-Menminis022.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/X-Men%20Minis/HeroscapeX-Menminis023.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/X-Men%20Minis/HeroscapeX-Menminis024.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/X-Men%20Minis/HeroscapeX-Menminis025.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/X-Men%20Minis/HeroscapeX-Menminis026.jpg

[IAmBatman]

That looks awesome, Spidey! Much, much higher quality than I think anything I've ever taken. :-):thumbsup:

[IAmBatman]

Oh - got so distracted by the great photo, almost forgot to say - Jean Grey passes at 180!

[Griffin]

Front page updated with pics.

[IAmBatman]

After reviewing this one with Griff on the phone just now, I feel comfortable proposing we move Jean Grey to the Carding Phase.

[Griffin]

Yea

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Three down ... one to go!

[Hahma]

yea

[IAmBatman]

Sweet. She passes into carding!

[IAmBatman]

Loving the card! :thumbsup:

[NecroBlade]

I was going to post a question about Psionic Grip vs Magnetic Throw but I read the two powers carefully and Magneto can only roll for wounds after the figure has "been placed," so if they don't get thrown in the first place, no dice (which makes the most logical sense anyway).

Instead, I'll fix the AWFUL wording of Jean's power.


PSIONIC GRIP 12
Whenever a special power controlled by an opponent would move Jean Grey or a Destructible Object or a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey, you may first roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to your roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

[Rich10]

Let me suggest a small change.

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Whenever a special power controlled by an opponent would move Jean Grey or any Destructible Object or a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey, you may first roll the 20-sided die., aAdding 1 to your roll for each Telepath you control which is adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

[NecroBlade]

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Before a special power controlled by an opponent would move Jean Grey or any Destructible Object or figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey, you may first roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each Telepath you control which is adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.
More fixes. :)

[Griffin]

Bats and I are gonna have a powwow tonight and go over all of the powers. I will make sure we take your suggestions into consideration, but with Psionic Grip, there are some specific wordings that we have to go by to ensure that Knockback can also be thwarted by Jean's Grip.

[NecroBlade]

I thought we went with "Knockback is an extension of the Super Strength special power"?

[Griffin]

I thought we went with "Knockback is an extension of the Super Strength special power"?

Sounds familiar... yes! I believe you are correct. Duly noted, and sharp thinking good sir. :D

[Hahma]

Isn't her Psionic Grip supposed to be able to have a chance to stop any movement within 4 clear sight spaces of her if it began in that range? I mean, as I tested her and used her in Prof X's army tests, she was able to have a chance to affect any movement, so if Batman was 4 spaces away from her and wanted to move to engage her, she had a chance to stop him. Now you guys are wanting to change that to only things moved by opponent's special powers?

[Adam Souza]

I'm with Hahma on this. I thought the main use of Psionic Grip was to keep people from running up adjacent to her.

[GreyOwl]

I'm with the two above...I thought we got rid of the special powers part and applied it to all movement.

[SirGalahad]

I'm with Hahma on this. I thought the main use of Psionic Grip was to keep people from running up adjacent to her.

That's the way I've been playing as well.

[NecroBlade]

Then someone messed up the powers...again... :unsure: ;)

[IAmBatman]

Yep, I'm with Hahma. The current wording is to reflect her ability to stop anyone's movement including throw movements but also just normal ones. The power just wasn't worth much otherwise - too niche.

[IAmBatman]

So ... she's good in her current form then, right?

[NecroBlade]

I think these couple changes would still sound much better:

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Before an opponent would move Jean Grey or any Destructible Object or figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey, you may first roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

[IAmBatman]

That first sentence is how we originally had it, and then Matt Helm and his gang complained about the Destructible Object breaking up the reference to Jean's figure and the other reference to figures. You guys drive me crazy. :-P

[NecroBlade]

It sounds horrific as "a figure within 4 spaces of Jean Grey, or Jean Grey,..." *shudders* If you don't want figure references split up, I would think the obvious solution would've been:

PSIONIC GRIP 12
Before an opponent would move Jean Grey or any figure or Destructible Object within 4 clear sight spaces of Jean Grey, you may first roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to the roll for each Telepath you control adjacent to Jean Grey. If you roll a 12 or higher, the Destructible Object or figure may not be moved.

[Griffin]

Grip effects all movement... I know that, I have been playing with that power like every day for the past week. :duh: I have too many things racing around up stairs.

[IAmBatman]

Actually, I think it was done that way to be consistent with Telekinesis - which was done that way itself due to Matt Helm's comments and the whole small/medium thing.
Will it bother you/us for the order to be different in Telekinesis and Psionic Grip?