The Book of Cyclops

[IAmBatman]

The Book of Cyclops

C3G MARVEL WAVE 1
RISE OF THE MUTANTS

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Cyclops_comic.jpg
Comic PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Cyclops_comic.pdf)

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Cyclops_mini.jpg
Mini PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Cyclops_mini.pdf)

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Universe set.
Its model number and name are #103-105 / Cyclops.

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Infinity Challenge set.
Its model number and name are #082-084 / Cyclops.
_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio - Next to the Professor (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597#post967597) himself, Scott Summers (or Cyclops) is the individual best suited to lead the X-Men. One of the original five students, Cyclops has proven his tactical skills again and again. Selflessly loyal and a firm believer in Xavier’s ideals of justice and equality, the relationship between the two is as much father-son as teacher-pupil. In fact, Cyclops has always had a close relationship with telepaths; he has been married to both Jean Grey (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27880) and Madelyne Pryor and has been romantically involved with Emma Frost. As a result of these affairs, he is father to both Cable and Rachel Summers (though both are from the distant future). However, these affairs have caused him nothing but heartache, as his loves seem to face death and rebirth.

Cyclops’ has a single power – the ability to shoot beams of concussive energy from his eyes. Unfortunately, he can’t turn it off, and as a result must wear specially designed glasses (or his signature red visor) to negate the effects of the beams.
_________________________________________________________________

-Rulings and Clarifications-
Q- If he uses Field Commander he can still attack right? He just skips his movement phase?
A- That is correct. Cyclops may still attack or use his Telepathic Rapport special power._______________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received

Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Mutant, Cyclops may be activated by Professor X's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597) Mutant Mind Link special power.
As a Mutant, Cyclops may be turned into an Outcast by Magneto's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=43541) Mutant Recruitment special power.
As a Mutant, Cyclops may be turned into a Horseman by Apocalypse's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=43541) Horsemen of the Apocalypse special power.
As a Mutant, Cyclops may be activated by Mastermind's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42291) Mutant Mastermind special power.
As a Mutant, Cyclops may be enhanced by Sage's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41448) Mutant Power Boost special power.
As a Mutant, Cyclops may be enhanced by Black King's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41448) Hellfire Club Influence special power.Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
Cyclops may move Mutants with his Mutant Field Commander special power. Current Mutants include: Angel (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27876), Apocalypse (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=43541), Archangel (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36863), Armor (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38920), Avalanche (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32135), Banshee (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36414), Beast (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27877), Bishop (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39080), Black King (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42540), Blink (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42609), Blob (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27948), Cable (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39885), Colossus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29892), Dazzler (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36901), Deadpool (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29561), Destiny (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1417597), Emma Frost (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39477), Firestar (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=46993), Forge (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41229), Gambit (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35240), Gorgon (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37606), Iceman (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27879), Jean Grey (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27880), Jubilee (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37861), Leech (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40575), Magma (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33828), Magneto (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27883), Magneto (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1430072), Marrow (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42272), Master Mind (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42291), Mentallo (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=47630), Molly Hayes (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34085), Multiple Man (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35086), Mystique (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967605), Nightcrawler (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29557), Omega Red (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35484), Phoenix (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41130), Professor X (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597), Psylocke (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37431), Pyro (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967607), Quicksilver (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33971), Rogue (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37085), Sabretooth (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32469), Sage (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41448), Scarlet Witch (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31259), Selene (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41792), Shadowcat (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36648), Siryn (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41450), Spider-Girl (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32495), Storm (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35545), Strong Guy (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32235), Toad (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27887), Typhoid Mary (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=47032), Whirlwind (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=44573), Wolverine (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29554), and X-23 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41865).
Cyclops may activate Telepaths with his Telepathic Rapport special power. Current Telepaths include: Cable (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39885), Emma Frost (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39477), Gorilla Grodd (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31479), Jean Grey (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27880), Martian Manhunter (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1056477), Mastermind (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42291), Phoenix (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41130), Professor X (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597), Psylocke (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37431), Sage (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41448), Solovar (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38991), White Martian (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36106).
As a Mutant, Cyclops may offer an initiative bonus from Sentinel's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27888) Mutant Detection special power.
As a Mutant, Cyclops may enable a figure with Mutant Sidekick to take a turn after him. Current figures with the Mutant Sidekick special power include: Armor (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38920), Jubilee (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37861).______________________________________________ ___________________

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
Possibly Cyclops’ greatest strength is his ability to create limited “chain” bonding. The combination of being able to move a fellow Mutant with Mutant Field Commander, then take a full turn with a Telepath through Telepathic Rapport, and finish up with activating a Mutant Sidekick (which other Mutant leaders like Professor X and Mastermind can’t), can be strong when used correctly. Here’s an example of a well laid-out turn with the following Cyclops army: Cyclops (190), Jean Grey (180), Angel (90), Jubilee (60), Molly Hayes (180); 700 total points.
- The Order Marker is revealed on Cyclops, who uses Mutant Field Commander to move Angel; before Angel moves, he chooses Cyclops to Carry.
- Cyclops then uses Telepathic Rapport to take a turn with Jean Grey, who follows Cyclops and Angel, and uses her own Telekinesis to pull Molly Hayes along too, eventually positioning her as the team’s shield (remember, Molly’s greatest weakness, her Power Fatigue, is avoided when she’s moved by Mutant Field Commander, Carry, or Telekinesis).
- Jubilee then gets to take a full turn herself through Mutant Sidekick as long as she is within 6 clear sight spaces of Cyclops.

Cyclops based army builds like the above also benefit, like many Mutant armies, from versatility: when using Mutant Field Commander, consider instead moving Jean Grey, and again using her for Telepathic Rapport to “speed boost” her; skip on using Telepathic Report occasionally to use Cyclops to snipe at the enemy, forcing your opponent to come to you; and while situational, don’t forget to use the Order Marker rearrangement aspect of Mutant Field Commander to use your other offensive Mutants for efficiency or surprise.

Emma Frost is a valuable addition to any Cyclops build, as both a Mutant and a Telepath to play off his synergies, and for the use of Telepathic Link, which gives you much more freedom when using Mutant Field Commander and/or Mutant Sidekick.

Like Angel who can use his Carry when moved by Mutant Field Commander, consider using other Mutants with similar abilities that activate “before moving” such as Beast and Pyro.

Cyclops is offensively strong in his own right, and so he also works well in other Mutant builds alongside Professor X, Mastermind, or Apocalypse, being useful as both a sniper and back-up Order Marker management.-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
PLAYTEST ONE (fail! - Old Version) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=982819&postcount=170)
PLAYTEST TWO (Pass at 180) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1017357&postcount=333)
PLAYTEST THREE - Pass at 190-200 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1012898#post1012898)
PLAYTEST FOUR - Pass at 190 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1017460&postcount=337)

[IAmBatman]

I propose we move Cyclops to the playtesting phase.

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Balantai]

Before I vote, do we want to move his attack down to 3? I'm not sure Cyclops warrants an attack of 4 while engaging in hand-to-hand combat. Is he really on the same power level as Beast or Spider-Man? He's trained in hand-to-hand combat, but let's be honest. Who isn't? To me, an attack of 3 represents someone with pretty good training.

[IAmBatman]

I could go either way on that one. It should be noted that Beast is probably closer on your charts to a 5 attacker, but the inclusion of Whirlwind Assault represents his prowess in another way, so his attack was bumped down to 4.
As for Spider-Man ... it seems weird to me that Cap and Batman both attack significantly harder. That may be more about 4 being one too low for Spidey, IMO.

[Balantai]

It could definitely be my scale, but this is how I envision hand-to-hand:

Atk 1: Average citizen.
Atk 2: Normally strong or normally athletic
Atk 3: Peak human strength or extensive training
Atk 4: Above peak human strength or a lifetime of training
Atk 5: The best of the best (Batman, Captain America, Lady Shiva, etc.)
Atk 6+ Varying levels of Superstrength combined with the above scale.

A hand-to-hand weapon usually raises the attack value by one.

[IAmBatman]

So Agent Carr and Sgt. Drake are the best of the best, or are their weapons raising their attack value by more than one?
I guess extensive training + lower level superstrength = 4 does make sense for Spidey to an extent.
The other thing to consider, and maybe a reason why I was premature in voting to move this to playtesting, is will he have a reason to use his normal attack? Right now, I think it's pretty questionable - move it down to 3, and it becomes very questionable.

[Hahma]

So Agent Carr and Sgt. Drake are the best of the best, or are their weapons raising their attack value by more than one?
I guess extensive training + lower level superstrength = 4 does make sense for Spidey to an extent.
The other thing to consider, and maybe a reason why I was premature in voting to move this to playtesting, is will he have a reason to use his normal attack? Right now, I think it's pretty questionable - move it down to 3, and it becomes very questionable.


I don't know that Drake and Carr would be considered amongst the best of the best in hand to hand combat when compared to superheros, I'd say their weapons add more than +1 for their melee attack total.

Spidey can press 10 tons, that's not chop liver. Especially when combined with super agility and reflexes. Stronger than Cap or Bats by a good margin. Cap has a shield to consider for bashing opponents and I guess Bats has tricks and gadgetry I suppose. In the end, I think both Spidey and Iron Man got hosed in the official game. Spidey should of had a higher attack and Iron Man should of had a special attack (repulsor x2) to bypass things that stop/cripple normal attacks, and he should of had a higher attack for melee, because IMO he engages more in melee combat (than this card would show) and has superstrength to dish out some punishment.

Regarding Cyclops. Now I haven't read all of the X-Men comics, but I have several and many X-Factor ones as well and I don't recall ever seeing him fighting hand to hand. Maybe he has at other times, but even in cartoons and the movies, he only uses his optic blast. I wouldn't mind seeing his normal attack at 3. Even if it was at 4, I'd only use it if he lost his special powers, but he shouldn't be falsely pumped up with his normal attack just to make it more usable. If he'd been given a special power of being able to attack one or two additional times, then his normal attack would be used more often, but since his optic blast is in no way tied to his normal attack, then I'd favor it being what it should be for someone that doesn't really participate in melee combat all that much and has no enhanced strength.

[IAmBatman]

Fair enough. I am persuaded by Balantai and Hahma's thinking on this. I favor a drop to 3 for his normal attack.
Does this impact his cost at all, you think? A drop to 170? Or does it not really factor in because he'd be using his specials over the attack of 4 anyway?

[NecroBlade]

Funny how sometimes we're in favor of Special Attacks that make normal attacks obsolete, other times we aren't. ;)

[IAmBatman]

It's really something I want to avoid as often as possible ... but some characters, like Cyclops, just make it so frigging hard to get around. The fact that we didn't include his optic blasts in his normal attack at all, but just tried to represent his melee attack there sort of tied our hands a bit.
Maybe we should reconsider having his optic blasts represented in his normal attack if he's not ever going to really use his normal attack unless negated?

[ollie]

Oops, I somehow missed IAmBatman's post and said more-or-less the same thing. :oops:

[IAmBatman]

Does that mean you believe we should make his normal attack representative of his optic blasts, Ollie?

[Swamper]

I think you should keep his Optical Blast, since it is his superpower, not his normal power. He never uses his fists, and I think his card should reflect that.

[IAmBatman]

I'm not suggesting changing any of the special powers on his card - I'd want to keep them all as is. I'm just wondering if his normal attack should also be a representation of his optic blast and be equipped with a range, or if we should keep it as melee, even though he, as you say, never uses his fist.

[Swamper]

Thats what I'm saying. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I think that ya'll should keep him as is.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... does that include keeping his normal attack at 4 and range 1? Or do you think the normal attack should go down to 3, as Balantai and Hahma were arguing?

[Swamper]

Well, he is a superhero. Again, I know virtually nothing but what I've seen in the movies, but it seems that superheroes are stronger than a regular person. I'd put a regular person at three, and Cyclops at 4. He must lift weights or something, being a superhero. :p

[Balantai]

I really don't think 3 is indicative of regular person's attack. I think that should be 1 or 2.

[Griffin]

It's really something I want to avoid as often as possible ... but some characters, like Cyclops, just make it so frigging hard to get around. The fact that we didn't include his optic blasts in his normal attack at all, but just tried to represent his melee attack there sort of tied our hands a bit.
Maybe we should reconsider having his optic blasts represented in his normal attack if he's not ever going to really use his normal attack unless negated?
I am definitely in favor of a ranged normal attack that symbolizes his optic blast being his usual first and last resort in combat.
Range 6
Attack 4

[IAmBatman]

I could go either way. What do others think of putting his optic blast back into his normal attack to give his normal attack some (apparently) needed relevance?

[Hahma]

It's really something I want to avoid as often as possible ... but some characters, like Cyclops, just make it so frigging hard to get around. The fact that we didn't include his optic blasts in his normal attack at all, but just tried to represent his melee attack there sort of tied our hands a bit.
Maybe we should reconsider having his optic blasts represented in his normal attack if he's not ever going to really use his normal attack unless negated?
I am definitely in favor of a ranged normal attack that symbolizes his optic blast being his usual first and last resort in combat.
Range 6
Attack 4

I can live with this because if he's using it against an adjacent figure, I can still envision him using his optic blast up close to justify the attack of 4. Whereas if it were a range 1 attack 4, it's hand to hand and as I stated before, that wouldn't work for me with Cyclops.

Most of the time his Special Attack would still be used, but on occasion there might be a defending figure, like Count Vertigo, where a normal attack might be preferred or work better against. There is also the negation situation that would lead one to use this normal attack.

The other thing that would make an argument for having this optic blast tied to a normal attack is that others in this set with range seem to have their normal attack linked to their iconic powers. Iceman, Jean Grey and Magneto, as currently presented have ranged normal attacks, and it's not because they carry a pistol. I was confused when Cyclops didn't have something similar to begin with.

[IAmBatman]

OK - range 6, attack 4 sound good to everyone? I think this change makes sense, all things considered (and I was one of those in favor, initially, of making his normal attack melee only).

[Hahma]

OK - range 6, attack 4 sound good to everyone? I think this change makes sense, all things considered (and I was one of those in favor, initially, of making his normal attack melee only).


I know :evil::p:D

[ollie]

Does that mean you believe we should make his normal attack representative of his optic blasts, Ollie?

Yep. :up:

[GreyOwl]

Bats, can you update the Cyclops in the first post to reflect Attack 4, Range 6? I can't edit it any longer since you created it.

[IAmBatman]

Good point. :-) I'll do so right away here and we can discuss whether there are any lingering concerns or cost updates necessary, or if this guy can move to playtesting.

[Balantai]

There's one thing I want to throw out here before we make this change. I prefer to have mutant abilities tied to Special Powers. This way, if we create a Scarlet Witch custom that causes all Mutants to temporarily lose their mutant powers, Cyclops can't still use his optic blast.

It just seems thematic to me that if you nullify a mutants' ablities, they become human.

I like guns, bow and arrows, etc. as regular attacks and not psionic blasts, fireballs, etc.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but for the sake of gameplay, it doesn't work that well to make his normal attack only worthwhile if he's negated.
In addition, both Iceman and Jean Grey currently represent their mutant powers in their normal attacks, and I'm betting Magneto will as well.
Beast also represents his mutant strength and agility in his normal attack and defense.

[Balantai]

Point taken. I'll go back to my hole. :unsure:

[Balantai]

Optic Blast Special Attack no longer requires two options now that his normal attack reflects his optic beam. We should remove the first option. Otherwise, it seems redundant.

[ollie]

Optic Blast Special Attack no longer requires two options now that his normal attack reflects his optic beam. We should remove the first option. Otherwise, it seems redundant.

I thought the point was to remove the special attack entirely by capturing it with the normal attack. :?

[NecroBlade]

Even if it doesn't, it at least needs to be renamed, since his normal attack is now also an "Optic Blast."

[Balantai]

Optic Blast Special Attack no longer requires two options now that his normal attack reflects his optic beam. We should remove the first option. Otherwise, it seems redundant.

I thought the point was to remove the special attack entirely by capturing it with the normal attack. :?

I'm sorry, Olie. I thought the point everyone was trying to reach was making his normal attack not an obsolete stat.

Personally, I like his Fireline type ability. But I understand if we just want to see Optic Blast completely incorporated. I will insist on a bump to 5 attack though, if we remove his Special Attack completely. (Which, to be honest, I'm not in favor of. Cyclops should have an attack that bypasses ranged counterstrike, in my opinion.)

[ollie]

Optic Blast Special Attack no longer requires two options now that his normal attack reflects his optic beam. We should remove the first option. Otherwise, it seems redundant.

I thought the point was to remove the special attack entirely by capturing it with the normal attack. :?

I'm sorry, Olie. I thought the point everyone was trying to reach was making his normal attack not an obsolete stat.

Personally, I like his Fireline type ability. But I understand if we just want to see Optic Blast completely incorporated. I will insist on a bump to 5 attack though, if we remove his Special Attack completely. (Which, to be honest, I'm not in favor of. Cyclops should have an attack that bypasses ranged counterstrike, in my opinion.)

As usual, my main concern is playability of the sets as a whole rather than accurate and complete character representation. I was just excited that one of the cards had (I thought) dropped to two powers.

I know my emphases and preferences are not shared by the group as a whole; I hope I'm not lobbying excessively for what I'd like to see come out of this.

[Balantai]

I know my emphases and preferences are not shared by the group as a whole; I hope I'm not lobbying excessively for what I'd like to see come out of this.

Although your preferences may not be shared by the group, you represent a significant portion of our target audience. Your lobbying is by no means excessive.

[Balantai]

I'm starting to feel that Telepathic Rapport may not be necessary. We already have Prof. X allowing us to take additional turns. It's not necessary to have Cylops allow us to do something similar. Removing this ability and simplifying Optic Blast Special Attack would make for a pretty simple, yet thematic, Cyclops.

[IAmBatman]

Optic Blast Special Attack no longer requires two options now that his normal attack reflects his optic beam. We should remove the first option. Otherwise, it seems redundant.

I thought the point was to remove the special attack entirely by capturing it with the normal attack. :?

I'm sorry, Olie. I thought the point everyone was trying to reach was making his normal attack not an obsolete stat.

Personally, I like his Fireline type ability. But I understand if we just want to see Optic Blast completely incorporated. I will insist on a bump to 5 attack though, if we remove his Special Attack completely. (Which, to be honest, I'm not in favor of. Cyclops should have an attack that bypasses ranged counterstrike, in my opinion.)

Good point that his Optic Blast can be simplified to basically fireline with this change. This would give his special attack basically 0 learning curve for anyone familiar with RotV.

I'm starting to feel that Telepathic Rapport may not be necessary. We already have Prof. X allowing us to take additional turns. It's not necessary to have Cylops allow us to do something similar. Removing this ability and simplifying Optic Blast Special Attack would make for a pretty simple, yet thematic, Cyclops.

I disagree. I really like that Cyclops can feel like a field general with or without Prof. X. and I really think in the current dynamic with things like Telepathic Rapport and Mutant Mind Link at work, we've achieved an X-Men team that plays like the X-Men on the map without either being overly complex (these powers are very straightforward IMO) or without needing any sort of team card addition (Prof X and Cyclops as is are going to let you play X-Men that feel like X-Men without needing a supplemental team card).
I'd also argue that:

a) Prof X is still down to only two powers
b) We're using a high number of powers that are either identical to official powers or slight adjustments on them. This will make the overall set more playable than perhaps people are realizing without (thanks to new combinations) making it feel stale. I really don't feel that Telepathic Rapport is a very complex power and I really think its slight added complexity is worth the thematic and gameplay pay off.
I'm aware of Ollie's concerns but don't wish to see this particular power sacrificed as a result.
c) I'm really enjoying seeing the class of Telepath develop into a major source of synergy and I think that a wave one that could include figures like Martian Manhunter, Mastermind, maybe even Gorilla Grodd could really help expand this in interesting ways. I'd hate to take away some of that synergy already.

[Balantai]

I disagree. I really like that Cyclops can feel like a field general with or without Prof. X. and I really think in the current dynamic with things like Telepathic Rapport and Mutant Mind Link at work, we've achieved an X-Men team that plays like the X-Men on the map without either being overly complex (these powers are very straightforward IMO) or without needing any sort of team card addition (Prof X and Cyclops as is are going to let you play X-Men that feel like X-Men without needing a supplemental team card).
I'd also argue that:

a) Prof X is still down to only two powers
b) We're using a high number of powers that are either identical to official powers or slight adjustments on them. This will make the overall set more playable than perhaps people are realizing without (thanks to new combinations) making it feel stale. I really don't feel that Telepathic Rapport is a very complex power and I really think its slight added complexity is worth the thematic and gameplay pay off.
I'm aware of Ollie's concerns but don't wish to see this particular power sacrificed as a result.
c) I'm really enjoying seeing the class of Telepath develop into a major source of synergy and I think that a wave one that could include figures like Martian Manhunter, Mastermind, maybe even Gorilla Grodd could really help expand this in interesting ways. I'd hate to take away some of that synergy already.

All very valid points.

[IAmBatman]

Also, add in, it's one of my favorite completely original powers we've come up with for this set. I'd just as soon see us lose it as Negotiation (my other favorite thus far). In fact, I'd probably keep Telepathic Rapport over Negotiation.

[Balantai]

Field Commander is my favorite ability so far in this set. It's so Cyclops like. :D

[IAmBatman]

I guess it's more the one-two punch of Field Commander and Telepathic Rapport really, that I go for.

[Hahma]

Since we lost range 8 attack 6 for Cyclops' Special Attack, can we bump up his normal attack to 5 since it represents his regular Optic Blast. It would still normally be lower than the original special attack of 6 and can be bumped up to 6 with height. It would still be weaker by having a range of 6 instead of 8.

This would also make his normal attack and special attack different and he might have to make a choice at times whether a normal attack of 5 ( or 6 with height) would be better to get the front figure only in a fireline possible situation instead of automatically choosing the Special Attack in that situation.

[Balantai]

I agree with Hahma's proposed change.

[IAmBatman]

I bumped it to 5. You're right that if his normal attack is the only representation of a focused Optical Blast, it should be an attack of 5.
Lingering questions ...

Do we need to change the name of the special attack now that his normal attack also represents his Optical Blast?

Are his points good where they're at?

Is everyone satisfied with the current power selection, left box, and comic art?

[Balantai]

Do we need to change the name of the special attack now that his normal attack also represents his Optical Blast?

I think we probably should.

[NecroBlade]

His normal and special attack are already different though, since one can only target in a straight line. And wasn't 4 already representing his optic blast since it was considered 'too high' for his hand-to-hand capabilities?

[IAmBatman]

Yes, but his focused Optic Blast in the special attack was represented by an attack of 6, so a normal attack of 4 wasn't really doing an adequate job of representing the Optic Blast when focused on a single target, IMO.

[NecroBlade]

Good point. Now, does anyone feel 6 is too short a range for either attack? I mean, they were both 8 before.

[GreyOwl]

I think the normal attack range can stay at 6, and the special can be at 8.

[IAmBatman]

I think the normal attack range can stay at 6, and the special can be at 8.

Which is how it currently is, and I agree with. Since the normal attack is meant to represent a more focused beam rather than him just letting loose and blasting all over the place, I think a shorter range makes sense.

[GreyOwl]

Exactly my reasoning, too.

[IAmBatman]

Do we need to change the name of the special attack now that his normal attack also represents his Optical Blast?

Are his points good where they're at?

Is everyone satisfied with the current power selection, left box, and comic art?

[Balantai]

I don't think his defense needs to be 5. I think it fits better at 4, but it's not a deal breaker. I see Cyclops as being a bit top heavy (more atk than def).

[IAmBatman]

I tend to agree, Balantai. I think the rationale was that he'd be able to use his optic blasts defensively against projectiles, but I think even then 4 is a good place.
What do others think about moving his defense to 4?

[GreyOwl]

I'd be good either way.

[Hahma]

Fine either way as well.

[IAmBatman]

Well since I like his cost where it's at and we just boosted his attack a bit, let's go ahead and lower the defense to 4 (I'll make this update) and then talk about whether we're ready to move him on to the next level or not.

Edit: And if people think his special attack needs renaming (I'm unconvinced) how about some suggestions for a new name?

[GreyOwl]

I think the name is fine, but I'm okay with changing it if I hear anything better.

[IAmBatman]

Likewise.

[IAmBatman]

OK, sounds like no one's clamoring that much for a special attack name change, so I'm back to proposing we move him on to playtesting. :-)

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OK I may be late on this, and for that, me and my germs apologize, but with the simplified Optic Blast, why don't we just make it a Fireline reword? I mean to me Cyke has two kinds of Blasts, precise and wideopen. If he had a slightly longer normal range, a Fireline ability of 5 range would be devastating and a power people already know. See I see his normal attack being an unnamed Optic Beam, whereas a Blast implies wider ranging.

[IAmBatman]

So, you're thinking something like ...

OPTIC BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 4.
Choose 8 spaces in a straight line from Cyclops and attack all figures on those spaces who are in line of sight with Cyclops' Optic Blast Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice once for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.

? :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

While after checking I find that my memory has failed me again, no that is not what I was thinking. I was thinking more like

OPTIC BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 4.
Choose 4 spaces in a straight line from Cyclops and attack all figures on those spaces who are in line of sight with Cyclops' Optic Blast Special Attack. All figures on spaces adjacent to these spaces are also affected by Optic Blast Special Attack.
Roll 4 attack dice once for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.

I could also see doing five, however this really gives you a range of five, so five would give you six really.

[Hahma]

I can see Spidey's point (c'mon Spidey, you need to get here sooner to interject these ideas :p), the normal attack would take care of the precise version of the Optic Blast. But the way the special attack is currently worded, it makes it seem like his Optic Blast is still a narrow beam but is going through each figure in line of range. Whereas Mimring's fire or any dragon's fire breath is like a big wide blast that can go past an individual to the ones behind it, Cyclop's Optic Blast is either narrow (which shouldn't really pass through/around figures) or wide (which covers more space widthwise and could/should pass individual figures).

I know the way Spidey proposes it sounds/acts like Canary Cry, but it is what it is and we shouldn't be afraid to do what makes more sense. One thing that could be slightly different for Cyclops however that would make it different enough from Canary Cry (for me anyway), is to make it only affect figures on the same or one level difference from the first targeted figure.

[IAmBatman]

I really prefer it like a one line version of Fireline Special Attack. The only reason Mimring's attack affects a larger area is because he's double based. I still see a clear difference in "beamage" between attacking a single figure and attacking every figure in a line.
Also, I'd rather have the Optic Blast affect a larger range (6 spaces? 8 spaces?) in a single line than 4 spaces and adjacent figures and be just like Canary Cry.
We just finished up Black Canary - let's not make her feel redundant already.

[IAmBatman]

So, to summarize, I'm really in favor of the current version of the power and how it affects an area unlike any power on any other C3G or official card (half the overall effectiveness of Mimring, but affecting 8 spaces at a time is still pretty good).

[NecroBlade]

I'm confused. How is it different from Mimring's attack? It seems exactly the same to me...

[IAmBatman]

The current version is exactly like Mimring's attack. The only difference in gameplay is you can only affect up to 8 spaces instead of up to 16 since Cyclops is single based.
I like the current version.
Spidey's proposed change would be more of a "wide beam" that would play like Black Canary's Canary Cry.

[NecroBlade]

You can't affect 16 at a time with Mimring, though. You choose ONE of the possible 8-space lines when you attack, not one from each base.

[IAmBatman]

Have I really been playing Mimring wrong all these years?

[GreyOwl]

You can't affect 16 at a time with Mimring, though. You choose ONE of the possible 8-space lines when you attack, not one from each base.

That's how I've always played him.

[NecroBlade]

Which way is how you've played him? Maybe I've been wrong this whole time.

The power text is
Choose 8 spaces in a straight line from Mimring.
which to me is one line, as there is no mention of multiple lines. 8 and only 8 spaces.

[GreyOwl]

I've played him the way Necro is interpreting it. You choose a single line of 8 spaces.

[NecroBlade]

From the diagram on page 11 of the RotV rulebook:
From either his front or back space, Mimring's Fire Line Special Attack can affect figures within 8 spaces in any direction.

[IAmBatman]

No, you guys are right, I'm just an idiot. :-P That's what happens when most of your scaping is soloscaping, I guess.

[NecroBlade]

Nah, just go find that thread about (often obvious) mistakes every single one of us has made.

Also, Cyclops should copy Mimring's wording then, yes?

[GreyOwl]

Also, Cyclops should copy Mimring's wording then, yes?


I think so. I believe the only difference is the attack value, right?

[IAmBatman]

Nope - both attack values are 4. They're both the same in every way. I'm liking it that way, personally.
Who all isn't? (And who all is?)

[GreyOwl]

I thought we changed the attack value at some point. But I think it's fine just as it is.

[IAmBatman]

I agree. Any way I can scrum up votes 3-5 for moving him to playtesting?
Or at least rebuttal from those unsatisfied with his current card? :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I would like to see a power more like Canary Cry, I guess. I thought it was based off an official power but can't seem to recall one right now. To compensate for this perhaps lengthen it to range 4-5 and his normal range to 8-10. Hence, less length for more targets.

I know we just used a similar power on Black Canary, but if he isn't one of the best candidates for such a power, who is? The only other Marvel name I can come up with is Johnny Storm, whom I also think should have it.

[IAmBatman]

My thought is that he's a perfect candidate for the power he has now - if not he, than whom, for a fireline special attack mimicking power?

[GreyOwl]

The only thematic reason I can think of for not using a fireline power is that typically for large areas, Cyclops "sweeps" across a large area, and thus wouldn't be limited to a single line. I'd be okay with a Canary Song-type power (thought I wouldn't want it to be exactly the same). Or the fireline power. I'm non-commital....;)

[IAmBatman]

What you proposed is actually identical to the power we just released for Canary. I think it'd be really odd if the mechanics for Canary Cry and the mechanics for Optic Blast worked exactly the same way.

Edit: I guess we should use this thread for an informal poll.

Do you prefer:

A) The fireline like interpretation that's currently on the card?
B) More of a Canary Cry interpretation for the power?
C) Necro's triangle power

I'm going with A :-)

Because I'm against powers that require diagrams, no offense, Necro. :-P

[NecroBlade]

The only thematic reason I can think of for not using a fireline power is that typically for large areas, Cyclops "sweeps" across a large area, and thus wouldn't be limited to a single line.
Hmm, if only there was a triangle-shooting sort of power that we could call "Optic Blast Sweep" or something? :ponder:

;)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I can see where you are coming from, but is it really that different from his normal attack? Yes, he chooses a few more targets, but it still works in a straight line with LOS, whereas the other power offers a little variety. In fact, it allows for a straight line and multiple targets, plus it adds attacks on adjacent characters. I know it sacrifices a little range, but I feel it should with there being multiple targets. Right now, I can normally attack one person with 5 dice or multiple with four dice, all in straight line, range of 8. The other way you sacrifice range for more targets. I mean really, the only reason to use his normal attack currently is that you only have one person in site. Even then, it can be effected by all manner of defensive powers where a special power cannot. IMO, it really isn't a viable option unless you have height.

[GreyOwl]

I actually think Necro's equilateral triangle power might be a good fit. And I don't think it would require a diagram, though we could still provide one for user-friendliness. We can't be held responsible if people don't know what "equilateral" or "triangle" means. ;)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

What you proposed is actually identical to the power we just released for Canary. I think it'd be really odd if the mechanics for Canary Cry and the mechanics for Optic Blast worked exactly the same way.

Edit: I guess we should use this thread for an informal poll.

Do you prefer:

A) The fireline like interpretation that's currently on the card?
B) More of a Canary Cry interpretation for the power?

I'm going with A :-)

Because I'm against powers that require diagrams, no offense, Necro. :-P

I agree its just like Canary Cry, but we worked really hard to make that power work, why be afraid to use it. We can always extend his range as light does travel further and faster than sound.

I am for B

[GreyOwl]

I vote C (the triangle). ;)

[IAmBatman]

Spidey, you'd still use his normal attack because it wouldn't have the straight line restriction. There would be some targets that would be in his range that wouldn't be in a straight line all the time. With that and the added die every single time I wanted to attack a single figure I'd go with his normal attack. And every single time I couldn't get more than one figure to line up, I'd go with his normal attack.
Unless they were out of the range of the normal attack or they had some power that made the normal attack less useful, then I'd go with the special attack on the single figure.
Also, I'd go with the special attack if I could get more than one figure in that line.
I think with a Canary Cry interpretation, I'd almost never use his normal attack unless the figure were out of the range of that attack. Plus, I'd feel like I was using Black Canary instead of Cyclops.
As for the Necro power, I'm really uncomfortable creating a power that's going to use "equilateral triangle" as part of its text. I think that just gets a little too highly technical in the mechanical realm for my personal taste.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

If we can come up with simple, easy to understand, no diagram needed wording that works for people, I can get behind a triangle, but until I see that, I vote B and B, I shall stay.

[NecroBlade]

Here was Cyclops' equilateral triangle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/skeletalwolf28/HexTriangle.jpg

Honestly, though, I think the Fireline vs Normal attack dynamic is more interesting. So as much as I'd like to use "C" at some point, A gets my vote right now.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Bats, IMO, and I hope I am not out of line, I think the problem is in how you see the power. Did we invent the dynamics and power to be exclusive for Black Canary only? My answer is no. Which power we have created, tweaked, etc. would you not use on another card if it seemed thematic? I hope the answer is none. To me, Canary Cry is a great power, the dynamics of which work great for it and any other power that woudl seem to fit in that realm as well. I disagree completely that having a similar power would make Cyclops feel like Canary, becasue he will not have her counterstrike, or her synergy with Green Arrow. One power does not a character make. A character is the combination of powers, stats, and synergies. Even with the powers being similar, they will be way different.

[IAmBatman]

No disrespect taken, and I completely understand where you're coming from. I just think that with two special powers as distinctive and iconic as these two I really want to see completely different approaches taken.
Anyway, the poll so far is:

A - 2
B - 1
C - 1

We've yet to hear from Hahma, Griffin, Balantai, and Whitestuff

[GreyOwl]

I guess the only thing I don't like about the fireline is that I don't think it's thematic that someone could be a few spaces from Cyclops and he couldn't hit them. I know he can use his normal attack, but something about that power implies that he's unable to do "whatever distinguishes that power from his normal attack", and that just seems strange to me because thematically, I can't think of a reason for it.

But if no one else is behind C, then I'd vote for A.

[Balantai]

I like both A and C, but not really B. I don't see the theme with the Canary Cry area of effect. I can picture the sweep (C), and I can picture the straight stot (A), but I'm not sure what "B" represents. Is it a mini-sweep?

I'm okay with either A or C, but will vote for A.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Knockback funtionality added back into the power, though.

[IAmBatman]

So, does that mean:

A - 4
B - 1
C - 0 (unless more people like C)

?

[A3n]

Ok so when you use the Fire Line SA, use the actual wording also:

Choose 8 spaces in a straight line from Cyclops. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Cyclop's Optic Blast Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice once for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Works for me - updated.

[IAmBatman]

And since I'm seeing no real support for a change to the power ... I propose moving Cyclops to the playtesting phase (we'll try this again. :-P ).

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[NecroBlade]

Yea

[Balantai]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

No real support? I mean, I see where people have other ideas, but we don't really have a consensus on any of them. The only consensus I see is that people feel that the current option is the lesser between their choice for the power and the current power. So, to sumarize many feel "I like my idea for Optic Blast and if not that, then Fireline is Ok." I don't see that as a consensus, more as a lack of desire to attempt to create new powers and wording. I mean, I don't want to settle, just because people are not feeling up to working on it. To me, this kind of rushed decision making is what forced us to go with bad minis and such that had to be unanimously undone for World's Finest.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

See I see option B working like this: http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/cyclops-megaopticblast.gif

where as his normal attack is more like this:
http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/cyclops-opticblast2.gif

[Balantai]

That would make an awsome avatar. 8)

[A3n]

I don't get a vote at this stage but honestly I would have prefered C over B, but still thought it a bit lacking in the ease of use dept. And yeah as such I too would have settled for A.

But as another suggestion (without HS wording - somebody might do that if the idea has any merit), something like - choose a figure in clear sight space of Cyclops - roll for damage - if 1 or more wounds is inflicted you may then choose the next figure in a circular movement & continue the attack as long as 1 or more wounds is inflicted.

Yeah it might be too hard to word, but the idea works well in my head :p.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

All right, since apparently I'm the only one strongly in favor of option a and we have three people weakly in favor of option a and one strongly favor of option b, the jury's still out.
But we also have people who haven't chimed in yet.
I think one thing that people are saying is that no options besides option A have come up that they would really vote yes on. Feel free to continue trying to throw ideas at the wall and see if something sticks. If nothing does though, eventually, we might have to go with the "easy" choice and realize that it's actually the best choice.
Honestly, I think sometimes we try too hard to be innovative, when simple, easy to play powers with a low learning curve are readily available and thematically appropriate. There's only so much we can do within the game system of Heroscape in general and then, after that, there's only so much we can do without making the card really difficult and cumbersome to use. As someone who playtested the whole DC Master Set, let me tell ya, after a while I was very happy to be using some thematically appropriate powers that had similar mechanics to what I knew just so my mind wasn't doing gymnastics for every card and glyph and scenario rule all at once (some of those combos got pretty mentally taxing). I think with Cyclops, his two other powers are providing so much unique flavor right now, I'm happy keeping his special attack pretty straight forward (and straight line).
If not for my sake, then at least for Ollie's. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

So then you think using the wording for Canary Cry for Optic Blast is either A) too complicated (If so, making these types of powers more common makes them easier to remember, just look at Super-Strength and Flying), or B) doesn't represent the picture I posted earlier. I would like to know which it is?

[GreyOwl]

Honestly, I think sometimes we try too hard to be innovative, when simple, easy to play powers with a low learning curve are readily available and thematically appropriate.

This, I agree with. But like I said earlier, my only possible issue with the fireline attack is that it doesn't seem thematic for Cyclops to have "gaps" in what he can hit.

I don't necessarily think we need a complicated, completely thematic power. I'm okay with the triangle power. I'm okay with the Canary Cry power. I'm okay with something even simpler than those. I just want it to make thematic sense.

[IAmBatman]

B) Doesn't represent the picture you posted earlier. If anything, I see that picture (which is two dimensional, so that doesn't help) acting with the same mechanics as what we have now, just with more attack dice than the other avatar pic, since it affects a larger range of height (same no existent two dimensional width, though). I definitely don't see either of those pictured blasts dying out after four spaces, though, like Canary Cry.
Also, the Canary Cry mechanics create a "cone" effect. Is that what you're going for with Optic Blast? A "cone" effect? I've always thought of the Optic Blast as more like a laser, with more of a ... well ... straight effect.

[IAmBatman]

Honestly, I think sometimes we try too hard to be innovative, when simple, easy to play powers with a low learning curve are readily available and thematically appropriate.

This, I agree with. But like I said earlier, my only possible issue with the fireline attack is that it doesn't seem thematic for Cyclops to have "gaps" in what he can hit.

I don't necessarily think we need a complicated, completely thematic power. I'm okay with the triangle power. I'm okay with the Canary Cry power. I'm okay with something even simpler than those. I just want it to make thematic sense.

There aren't any gaps, though, given that his normal attack can hit anywhere within his range. It's just that if he wants to create a powerful, focused enough blast to hit everyone in a line for 8 spaces, he can't be shooting it all over the place, so it ends up going in a straight line.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

B) Doesn't represent the picture you posted earlier. If anything, I see that picture (which is two dimensional, so that doesn't help) acting with the same mechanics as what we have now, just with more attack dice than the other avatar pic, since it affects a larger range of height (same no existent two dimensional width, though). So you are telling me as a man who plays Heroscape has the imagination to create literally hundreds of customs to play in this game and design mechanics to work out their comic powers in a real world game, can't imagine that a beam the is larger in Height in a 2-D .gif is alos wider when translated to 3-D? C'mon Bats, say you don't like the idea if you don't like it, don't insult my intelligence. :) I definitely don't see either of those pictured blasts dying out after four spaces, though, like Canary Cry. That is why I suggest ed extending the Range of said attack.
Also, the Canary Cry mechanics create a "cone" effect. Really? You think Canary Cry works out as a cone? The way I count it, its more like three adjacent, parallel lines of Hexes; the middle 6 spaces long, the other two - five spaces long. Is that what you're going for with Optic Blast? A "cone" effect? I've always thought of the Optic Blast as more like a laser, with more of a ... well ... straight effect. Maybe as described now, it makes more sense? Maybe we started going for a more cone effect for Canary Cry, but this is more what it ended up being.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Oops! Double-posted.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Stupid Internet, triple-posted.

[IAmBatman]

B) Doesn't represent the picture you posted earlier. If anything, I see that picture (which is two dimensional, so that doesn't help) acting with the same mechanics as what we have now, just with more attack dice than the other avatar pic, since it affects a larger range of height (same no existent two dimensional width, though). So you are telling me as a man who plays Heroscape has the imagination to create literally hundreds of customs to play in this game and design mechanics to work out their comic powers in a real world game, can't imagine that a beam the is larger in Height in a 2-D .gif is alos wider when translated to 3-D? C'mon Bats, say you don't like the idea if you don't like it, don't insult my intelligence. :)

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence - sorry if it's coming off that way. I'm merely pointing out that there's no way to tell what level of width that picture is meant to represent because it's two dimensional. I can imagine as little or as much as I want, because it's not represented there in any way. When I think of Cyclops' blasts, I think of them as straight, focused laser like beams. That picture, to me, represents a larger version of this, but not one wider than a single person (or single hex) and there's nothing in that two dimensional picture to lead my imagination elsewhere.
My imagination is capable of seeing his optic blast do all sorts of crazy things, though, including a complete 360 and putting on a top hat and tap dancing. :-P I don't wish to see either of these represented in the game, though, because neither are how I envision his Optic Blast.


I definitely don't see either of those pictured blasts dying out after four spaces, though, like Canary Cry. That is why I suggest ed extending the Range of said attack.


How far would you extend the range, though? How many spaces are we talking about affecting at once? I think what you're suggesting would create a major bump in his offensive power, like major, major, major, and would take us back to the issue of never wanting to use his normal attack really under the vast majority of situations. Affecting anything less than 6 spaces wouldn't feel like his Optic Blast to me, but affecting that many spaces and all of the adjacent spaces would cover 19 or so spaces. That's just too much in terms of game balance, IMO.
And he'd still be doing what he's doing now - attacking in a straight line - it'd just be a wider straight line with a conical effect because it's longer in the middle.

Also, the Canary Cry mechanics create a "cone" effect. Really? You think Canary Cry works out as a cone? The way I count it, its more like three adjacent, parallel lines of Hexes; the middle 6 spaces long, the other two - five spaces long. Is that what you're going for with Optic Blast? A "cone" effect? I've always thought of the Optic Blast as more like a laser, with more of a ... well ... straight effect. Maybe as described now, it makes more sense? Maybe we started going for a more cone effect for Canary Cry, but this is more what it ended up being.I guess cone like isn't the best word, as it doesn't maintain that triangular slope quite long enough. But it's certainly longer in the middle than on the sides. I really don't see the Optic Blast working like this - I have never seen it portrayed, even if it's been portrayed as a slightly wider beam, as parts of the blast finishing significantly farther away than others. It just seems like a strange mechanic for this power to me, one that's difficult to maintain game balance with while keeping thematically appropriate range, and one that's too much like a power that we just did in the last set mechanically for my tastes. I mean there's staying simple and there's repeating ourselves early and often with powers that aren't very similar in the comic book universe but that would be very, very similar in the game if we went with that interpretation.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I guess my feeling is not that we are overdoing, just using the dynamic where appropriate, which because of the direction we chose, is, IMO, the very next set on Cyclops. Personally, we could shorten Canary Cry a little to make it have more of a Cone feel, while lengthening it for Cyclops to eliminate the cone feel, if that is the issue. And as a self-confessed DC-guy, you may not have seen it, but he does do wide Blasts. I mean really, in this 2-D pick how would you have shown a wider beam?

[IAmBatman]

Tight, focused beam (certainly not wider than a single person):

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/faculty/dmb/edibleopticalmaterials/index_files/cyclops.jpg

Tight, focused beam (certainly not wider than a single person):

http://www.reelcomix.com/admin/admin_images/cyclops_1280-thumb.jpg

Tight, focused beam (certainly not wider than a single person):

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp268/mico_blog/toptensuperheroes-cyclops.jpg

Even in an action figure - tight, focused beam (certainly not wider than a single person):

http://www.toystoreinc.com/catalog/X-Men%20Wolverine%20Animated%20Figure%20Cyclops.jpg

And, video evidence of a tight, focused beam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJxJpRqqyo) (certainly not wider than a single person) - fast forward to about the minute mark to see his Optic Beam in action.

Wikipedia says this: "Depending on the size of the aperture opening, the beams can be released in various widths, appearing in enormous bursts on rare occasions. Their effective range is approximately 2,000 ft. They have been observed to level a skyscraper, or can be focused tight enough to punch a pin hole in a dime."

I think if it's going to be a special attack that he's going to use most of the time, it would be better to represent what's in those photos and that video above than those "rare occasions" described above. We're trying to depict the most iconic version of the character, right?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yeah, but my question is rooted in this: If he does both and we can represent both, why are we only representing the pinsized or even beam-like approach? Have you played any of the X-Men or Ultimate Alliance Video Games? He can use his Optic Beams in several ways, with his BA Ultimate attack being an unbelievable force Blast (wide). So, while yes, he does normally do a thinner more precise blast, isn't this represented in his normal attack? To paraphrase, isn't the way he normally attacks represented by his normal attack? I thought this was the basis for changing his base stats to reflect ranged attack instead of hand-to-hand. If his base stats represent a narrower more precise beam, why do we need a SA to represent the same thing (even if mechanics are slightly different)?

[IAmBatman]

Because he uses his narrower beam in more waves, but pretty much 90% or more of the time, as far as I can tell?
And even when I stumbled across the rare depiction of a slightly wider beam in my recent search, he never used it to target more than one figure at a time. In fact, I'm starting to think any area of effect for his special attack is off base. He doesn't really use it to attack multiple figures at the same time. And if he does, it's with separate, quick blasts. Maybe we should be going more for something like Nilfheim's Ice Shard here.

[IAmBatman]

For instance, in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O9zZ7OwKXQ&feature=related), he occasionally will attack more than one figure, but with multiple attacks. Look at around 2:20 and after - he's faced with a whole crowd of well known bad guys and shoots at them one after another, not all at once.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Seems to me on that same video at the 3:00 mark he uses a single beam to try and take out a group of about 8 baddies standing on crates with one blast. He misses, but the jist is still there.

Personally, I am beginning to think a double or triple attack with less die might be more thematic. Like

Optic Beam Special Attack
Range 6 Attack 4
When Cyclops uses Optic Beam Special Attack he may attack two additional times. Cyclops may not attack the same character more than once.

[IAmBatman]

Seems to me on that same video at the 3:00 mark he uses a single beam to try and take out a group of about 8 baddies standing on crates with one blast. He misses, but the jist is still there.

Those baddies are packed so tightly that they're essentially on one "hex" of space, though.
If anything, that's more support for the fireline approach, IMO.

Personally, I am beginning to think a double or triple attack with less die might be more thematic. Like

Optic Beam Special Attack
Range 6 Attack 4
When Cyclops uses Optic Beam Special Attack he may attack two additional times. Cyclops may not attack the same character more than once.

I'm beginning to like that more myself as well. Or we could do something that I was starting to toy with as a possible future Heat Vision power ... Inspired by, I believe, Pochoman's use of Braxas' acid special for a Power Girl custom.

TACTICAL OPTIC BEAMS
Instead of attacking, you may choose up to 3 different figures within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyclops. One at a time, roll the 20-sided die for each chosen figure. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.

So it wouldn't be a special attack at all, but a special power that could help him get around high defenses, special defensive powers, and take out squads more easily.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I like that too. Kinda represents his beams being tough without making them insta-kill everybody and everything all the time.

No offense bu those boxes look like way more than one hex to me. That looked more like 15 feet, not 7.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but the beam didn't cover that entire surface area - it hit them in the middle and they blasted apart. If anything, that would represent an explosive attack - certainly not the wide type of area of effect in Canary's Cry, though. But since human targets wouldn't likely blast apart like the boxes there (and if they would, I'm not sure we'd want to represent that ... still a game for kids! :-D ) I still think the single target holds up as the better approach.

[IAmBatman]

And should we be basing his special on something we can find one example of and it's an example of him doing it poorly (he missed) anyway? :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Personally, I am beginning to think a double or triple attack with less die might be more thematic. Like

Optic Beam Special Attack
Range 6 Attack 4
When Cyclops uses Optic Beam Special Attack he may attack two additional times. Cyclops may not attack the same character more than once.

I'm beginning to like that more myself as well. Or we could do something that I was starting to toy with as a possible future Heat Vision power ... Inspired by, I believe, Pochoman's use of Braxas' acid special for a Power Girl custom.

TACTICAL OPTIC BEAMS
Instead of attacking, you may choose up to 3 different figures within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyclops. One at a time, roll the 20-sided die for each chosen figure. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.

So it wouldn't be a special attack at all, but a special power that could help him get around high defenses, special defensive powers, and take out squads more easily.

I really think this is where we need that power/ability to represent him. I agree muti-targeting seems to be where we are missing out. Whether it is a multiple-attack or choosing three targets, it represents what happened in most of that video.

[IAmBatman]

He does seem to be able to get off several shots at once. The range of 4 would give it a different use than the normal attack as well.

[A3n]

I'd prefer to see that ability rather than a fire line.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

There aren't any gaps, though, given that his normal attack can hit anywhere within his range. It's just that if he wants to create a powerful, focused enough blast to hit everyone in a line for 8 spaces, he can't be shooting it all over the place, so it ends up going in a straight line.

I meant gaps just in terms of that special attack. I can't think of a thematic reasono why that would be. Then again, I can't think of one for Mimring either...


I always thought the cone (or triangle) wouldn't represent a single wide beam, but rather him using a sustained beam to sweep across an area.


Optic Beam Special Attack
Range 6 Attack 4
When Cyclops uses Optic Beam Special Attack he may attack two additional times. Cyclops may not attack the same character more than once.

I like this.



TACTICAL OPTIC BEAMS
Instead of attacking, you may choose up to 3 different figures within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyclops. One at a time, roll the 20-sided die for each chosen figure. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.


And I like this, as well.

[NecroBlade]

Optic Beam Special Attack
Range 6 Attack 4
When Cyclops uses Optic Beam Special Attack he may attack two additional times. Cyclops may not attack the same character more than once.

I like this.
No. We already copied Captain America's copy of Nilfhiem's Ice Shard Breath for Batman's Batarangs, we're not copying it again for Cyclops' Optic Beams.



TACTICAL OPTIC BEAMS
Instead of attacking, you may choose up to 3 different figures within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyclops. One at a time, roll the 20-sided die for each chosen figure. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.


And I like this, as well.
Yes. Though the number might need to be tweaked higher, or at least his points to compensate, since Sonlen can only do this to one figure AND he has a weaker normal attack, and he already costs 160.

[Balantai]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I like the Fireline Optic Blast. I like the idea of Cyclops letting loose, like in the Wolverine movie, and blasting everyone in a straight line.

[NecroBlade]

I liked Fireline as well. :shrug: It created a nice dynamic between using it or the normal attack.

[wriggz]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I like the Fireline Optic Blast. I like the idea of Cyclops letting loose, like in the Wolverine movie, and blasting everyone in a straight line.

When I think of Cyclops attacking, this is the picture I see (likely because i have seen it manytimes in comics)

[IAmBatman]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I like the Fireline Optic Blast. I like the idea of Cyclops letting loose, like in the Wolverine movie, and blasting everyone in a straight line.

I liked Fireline as well. :shrug: It created a nice dynamic between using it or the normal attack.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I like the Fireline Optic Blast. I like the idea of Cyclops letting loose, like in the Wolverine movie, and blasting everyone in a straight line.

When I think of Cyclops attacking, this is the picture I see (likely because i have seen it manytimes in comics)

I'm actually in agreement with all of you. I was simply trying to find an alternative for what seemed like a lukewarm response - and really wasn't digging going in a Canary direction.
So sounds like, of voters, Balantai, Necro, and I are all still in favor of the Fireline. Would it be safe to say Spidey and GreyOwl are more in favor of the Acid Breath, D20 rolling option? From what I spoke with Griff about, he might favor that latter option as well ... Hahma, Whitestuff, I think we're going to need you guys to weigh in here! :-)

[Hahma]

I'm fine either way.

[IAmBatman]

You're killing me here, Hahma. :-P If it were put to a vote, which way would you go?

[Balantai]

One thing we should keep in mind.

There are going to be many X-Men figures that have multiple little attacks. I can't think of many powerhouse attacks, though. When I think of powerhouse X-Men attacks, I think of Colossus, Cyclops, Rogue, and maybe Storm's Lightning strike. But there are many quick hitters such as Nightcrawler, Gambit, Beast, and I even consider Wolverine in this category. Wolverine doesn't hit like a truck. He lashes out multiple times...like a wolverine. :D

In other words, what I'm trying to say is that I don't want to take one of our power punchers and turn him into a quick hit multi-attacker.

[Hahma]

I'm less in favor of multiple d20 rolls. So I guess Fireline would be better for me.

[IAmBatman]

Great points, Balantai. If I weren't already with you, I would be now. :-) Plus we need to make sure we have enough area of effect attacks to blast some clustered Civilians.
So that looks like ...

In favor of Fireline-esq: Balantai, Necro, Hahma, myself

In favor of Acid Breath-esq: GreyOwl, Spidey (?) Griffin, maybe?

[GreyOwl]

I'd actually prefer a non-d20 power. I still don't like the "gap" in the fireline power. I can't rationilize to myself what it represents thematically.:? But since I have the same problem rationlizing it for Mimring, then I suppose we might as well go for it.

Fireline it is (for my vote).

[NecroBlade]

What "gap?" :confused:

[GreyOwl]

Because of the straight line requirement of Mimring's fireline, there are certain spaces a figure could be where you can't hit them.

[Balantai]

What "gap?" :confused:

A hex only has 6 points at which a straight line can be determined. If a figure is 4 spaces from Cyclops and between those straight lines, Cyclops can't blast him with the Special Attack without moving. This isn't thematic.

I understand your concern with this, GreyOwl, but it's a limitation of the game mechanics.

[NecroBlade]

But that's what his normal attack is for. Which is why I'm confused.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Perhaps, I could make a suggestion. If Iceman has the power we were talking about (Nilfheim's Ice Shard) and Cyclops big blasting, perhaps we coudl swap them. Seems to me Iceman does a giant sheet of Ice more often and Cyclops has his head on a swivel, hand to visor, blasting as he sees targets. Maybe they each have the wrong power. (Or did I read Necro's comments wrong?)

EDIT: On a totally unrelated note, how do you get an animated .gif file as your avatar? I currently have one, but it is not animating. Should be doing this: http://www.freefever.com/animatedgifs/animated/spiderman11.gif

[GreyOwl]

But that's what his normal attack is for. Which is why I'm confused.

I know the figure has no gaps, but that particular special attack has one. It's just a thematic thing that makes no sense.



I understand your concern with this, GreyOwl, but it's a limitation of the game mechanics.

Exactly. That's why I changed my vote to the fireline attack.

[NecroBlade]

But that's what his normal attack is for. Which is why I'm confused.

I know the figure has no gaps, but that particular special attack has one. It's just a thematic thing that makes no sense.
I don't see a lack of thematic sense at all. It's a focused blast going in a straight line. He's concentrating on that too much to worry about some odd angle off to the side. :shrug:

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, to me the fireline attack represents more intensity and less control, and the normal attack represents more control and less intensity. That seems to be a nice representative spread for his powers.
Spidey, I'll give people a chance to respond to your last question, but right now it's looking as if people are preferring the fireline approach still.
This guy continues to teeter close to the playtesting phase, but I won't try to shove him there artificially soon. :-)

[A3n]

The issue I personally have with a fire line attack (remember I don't have a vote just an interest) is that his beam is like a laser & therefore would need to be burning a hole through each figure to get to the next & I can't see this happening without killing the guy in front. Mimring's fire line is fire so swirls around as it moves & therefore I don't have a problem with fire doing this but I do with a laser. I can see him sweeping around with it or it going out in a broad V (like an equilateral triangle - which I am only against because it's such a hard & foreign concept to HS).

cheers

[IAmBatman]

I'm envisioning it less as the laser burning a hole through people and more as it either knocking people down with its intensity and then hitting people behind it, or knocking one person into the person behind him, or even having a wide enough beam (it's one hex wide, and a person doesn't occupy an entire hex; they have odd joints and curves, not squared edges) to slip past the first person with some of the beam and hit the person behind the first target.
The wide beam/cone like version would still be hitting people behind other people - it wouldn't stop at the first figure in a line it hit either.

Edit: PS, were there a tiebreaking vote to be cast, it would be yours, just so you know, A3n. :-)

[GreyOwl]

Yeah, to me the fireline attack represents more intensity and less control, and the normal attack represents more control and less intensity.

I can live with that rationilization.:p

[IAmBatman]

And, ultimately, we're rationalizing any power being a representation of the power the character actually has, whether it's Heroscape's hopping flying power or Rage Smash 5 representing Hulk in a way where he gets incrementally madder (usually at a quite gradual rate) and has a cap on how mad he can get.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

The issue I personally have with a fire line attack (remember I don't have a vote just an interest) is that his beam is like a laser & therefore would need to be burning a hole through each figure to get to the next & I can't see this happening without killing the guy in front. Mimring's fire line is fire so swirls around as it moves & therefore I don't have a problem with fire doing this but I do with a laser.

And I see Ice or Snow acting in much the same way, which revives my question that only Bats and I have so far directly commented on: Should Iceman have a Fireline (or ICEline if you will) attack and we switch the Iceman power of mutiple targets to Cyclops?

EDIT: Just double checked and Iceman no longer has a multi-target, which is good. Can we give a multi-target ability to Cyclops? Out of this set of Heroes, his having it makes the most sense. Especially after reading this:

Known superhuman powers: Cyclops possesses the mutant ability to project a beam of concussive, ruby-colored force from his eyes. Cyclops's eyes are no longer the complex organic jelly that utilizes the visible spectrum of light to see the world around it. Instead, they are inter-dimensional apertures between this universe and another, non-Einsteinium universe, where physical laws as we know them do not pertain. This non-Einsteinium universe is filled with particles that resemble photons, yet they interact with this universe's particles by transferring kinetic energy in the form of gravitons (the particle of gravitation). These particles generate great, directional concussive force when they interact with the objects of this universe.

Cyclops's mind has a particular psionic field that is attuned to the forces that maintain the apertures that have taken the place of his eyes. Because his mind's psionic field envelops his body, it automatically shunts the other-dimensional particles back into their point of origin when they collide with his body. Thus, his body is protected from the effects of the particles, and even the thin membrane of his eyelids is sufficient to block the emission of energy. The synthetic ruby quartz crystal used to fashion the lenses of Cyclops's eyeglasses and visor is resonant to his minds' psionic field and is similarly protected.

The width of Cyclops's eye-blast seems to be focused by his mind's psionic field with the same autonomic function that regulated his oriinal eyes' ability to focus. As Cyclops focuses, the size of the aperture changes and thus act as a valve to control the flow of particles and beam's relative power. The height of Cyclops's eye-blast is controlled by his visor's adjustable slit. His narrowest beam, about the diameter of a pencil at a distance of 4 feet has a force of about 2 pounds per square inch. His broadest beam, about 90 feet across at a distance of 50 feet, has a force of about 10 pounds per square inch. His most powerful eye-blast is a beam 4 feet across which, at a distance of 50 feet, has a force of 500 pounds per square inch. The maximum angular measurement of Cyclops's eye-blast is equivalent to a wide-angle 35mm camera lens field of view (90 degree measured diagonally, or the angle subtended by holding this magazine's pages spread open, upright at 9.5 inches from your eyes). The minimum angular measurement is equivalent to the angle that the thickness of a pencil would subtend at 4 feet (3.5 degree, about a quarter of an inch viewed at 4 feet). The beam's effective range is about 2,000 feet, at which point a 1-inch beam has spread out to 10 feet square, and then has a pressure of .38 pounds per square inch. Cyclops's maximum force is sufficient to tip over a filled 5,000 gallon tank at a distance of 20 feet, or puncture a 1-inch carbon-steel plate at a distance of 2 feet.

The extra dimensional supply of energy for Cyclops's eye-blast is practically infinite. Thus, so long as Cyclops's psionic field is active (which is constantly), there is the potential to emit energy. The only limit to the eye-blast is the mental fatigue of focusing constantly. After about 15 minute of constant usage, the psionic field subsides and allows only a slight leakage of energy to pass through the aperture. Cyclops's metabolism will recover sufficiently for him to continue in about an additional 15 minutes.

Special limitations: Due to a brain injury, Cyclops is unable to shut off his optic blasts at will and must therefore wear a visor or glasses with ruby quartz lenses that block the beams.

Equipment: The mask Cyclops wears to prevent random discharge is lined with powdered ruby quartz crystal. It incorporates two longitudinally mounted flat lenses which can lever inward providing a constantly variable exit slot of 0 inches to .79 inches in height and a constant width of 5.7 inches. The inverted clamshell mechanism is operated by a twin system of miniature electrical motors. As a safety factor their is a constant positive closing pressure provided by springs. The mask itself is made of high-impact cycolac plastic. There is an overriding finger-operated control mechanism on either side of the mask, and normal operation is through a flat micro-switch installed in the thumb of either glove.

[GreyOwl]

I could see Iceman having a fireline-type power and Cyclops having a multiple target power. It kind of makes sense both ways, just depends which way we want to go with them.

[Hahma]

I could see Iceman having a fireline-type power and Cyclops having a multiple target power. It kind of makes sense both ways, just depends which way we want to go with them.

I could see it as well, though for Iceman it would be kind of crazy with OM removal possibility for up to that many units and that portion of his current power would have to be probably scrapped. Besides, he's been passed to go to playtesting.

While Cyclops having multiple attacks makes sense, that idea got shot down long ago.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think Iceman looks really nice how he is. I'd hate to disrupt him when the power fits just as well here.
Is it safe to say we're comfortable going forward with the current Cyclops Optic Blast approach, or are there still lingering doubts?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

In a general comment, did any of the X-Men end up having a multi-attack type ability?

[IAmBatman]

Jean Grey can throw and attack on the same turn, Beast can attack all adjacent figures, Cyclops (this version) can hit all figures in an 8 space straight line, and Professor X can allow you to take a figure with two Mutants at once, thus allowing for at least two attacks.

[Hahma]

Yeah, I think Iceman looks really nice how he is. I'd hate to disrupt him when the power fits just as well here.
Is it safe to say we're comfortable going forward with the current Cyclops Optic Blast approach, or are there still lingering doubts?


Good to go

[IAmBatman]

I'll take that as a proposal to move Cyclops to the playtesting phase and I'll vote yea :-)

[NecroBlade]

Yea

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea
-Spidey, sceptically hoping playtesting will make him warm up to Cyclop's fireline ability.

[IAmBatman]

Well, he now officially moves into the playtesting phase, so you can start filling out a feedback sheet any time you like. :-D

[Hahma]

Since I temporarily suspended testing on Angel for last 3 army tests until he's revisited, I thought I'd get started on Cyclops.

I got both Heavy Hitter tests done with him. Drake v2 made Cyclops' life miserable but it was closer with Red Skull.

One early observation is that vs a single opponent, it's easier to avoid Optic Blast because of figuring out possible angles and using LOS blockers. This really only forces Cyc to get in range of 6 for normal attack (though it didn't help him vs. Drake ;)) instead of being able to stay further away with range of 8 for OB.

I think that OB will work better against multiple opponents obviously if you can get them all in a row, but it will be more difficult for the opponent to keep multiple figures out of OB path and should allow at the least for Cyclops to get some more distant attacks from relative safety as his 4 defense and 4 life isn't all that stout.

[Hahma]

Have Cyclops testing done. Will get test report up in the next day or two.

[Hahma]

Here's Cyclops. Yes I'm a harsh critic :twisted::D


NAME OF THE TEST UNIT ___Cyclops @ 180 pts__

C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass, if not, list your Theme Check observations. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass, if not, list your Mirror Check observations. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass, if not, list your Bonding Check observations. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass, if not, list your Synergy Check observations. Pass
- Power/ Does it pass, if not, list your Power Check observations. Pass
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
(Be sure to list what official units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)
-
-Squad/ Does it pass? Pass/Fail (Crushes an easy opponent in Gorillinators but got beat pretty good by a good opponent. OB mostly useful as long range attack and bypassing certain defense like Gorillinator Tough).
-
-Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh vs. Gorillinators x2 (180 points).
-
Cyclops won with 1 wound on turn 5 of round 2. He was able to pick off the weak defense Gorillinators one at a time early on with OB special, bypassing their Tough. Then he’d use his high normal attack to take down the rest. He killed one with every attack, so they couldn’t really mount much in the way of multi –attacks against him. Gorillinators should have come out of starting zone slower with both squads advancing so that he’d eventually have to face several attacks at once. Despite the outcome, it’s not overly impressive because of bad strategy by Gorillinators and the fact that they suck by themselves with no support, with their low defense and low attack. One good thing for Cyclops was that his OB Special can bypass certain defenses from far away.

I also played on the same map with Cyclops vs. Stingers x3 (180 points)

Cyclops was killed on turn 6 of round 2. Six Stingers survived to take the victory. Cyclops killed 3 Stingers, 2 separately with OB from 8 spaces and one with normal attack and height. He gambled to take advantaged of being able to target two Stingers in a row with OB and rolled 2 skulls, but they both rolled 2 shields. He couldn’t have done it far away because a ruin was in the way so he was only a few spaces away and after surviving the OB attack, the 2 Stingers moved a couple spaces to height and took him out. Initially Stingers had come out spread apart going to different parts of the board to surround him, but he was able to pick them off one at a time like that, so they altered plans and came out together. OB worked early really as an extended normal attack with 1 less attack die. It helps having the range of 8 but makes it trickier for him to get into place to use it. It’s not easy to get multiple opponents in a row and be able to get to them with OB.
.
-
-Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? Fail at 180 points (I don’t think Field Commander is worth enough to drop his fighting value this much against Drake and Red Skull’s Master Manipulator vastly out points FC, so Red Skull got less bang for his buck in 1 v 1.) I’d like to see Cyclops tested against perhaps Sonlen, Cyprien, or Venom.
-
-Played against Drake v.2 (170 points) on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.
-
-Test 1 Drake won with 4 wounds on turn 3 of round 2.
-Test 2 Drake won with 1 wound on turn 2 of round 2.
-Test 3 Drake won with 1 wound on turn 6 of round 1.
-Test 4 Drake won with 3 wounds on turn 2 of round 2.
-Test 5 Drake won with 2 wounds on turn 6 of round 1.

Drake had greater mobility with Grapple and was able to get to height most of the time. He had a ranged attack that helped somewhat, but ultimately it was his normal melee attack that did Cyclops in. Cyclops had to use OB in order to bypass Drake’s Thorian Speed and that made it difficult as he wasn’t always able to get straight line shots because of lack of move or LOS blockers. Once engaged, Cyclops had a good attack, but Drake had 2 more wounds to take than Cyclops. He couldn’t use Field Commander or Telepath Rapport so I’d say that just as a combatant, he’s lower than Drake points-wise and was limited in attack options vs. him because of Thorian Speed.

Played against Red Skull (190) on same map.

Test 1 Red Skull won with 4 wounds on turn 2 of round 2. ( Test 2 Cyclops won with 3 wounds on turn 4 of round 2.
Test 3 Cyclops won with 0 wounds on turn 5 of round 1.
Test 4 Red Skull won with 2 wounds on turn 5 of round 2.
Test 5 Red Skull won with 2 wounds on turn 4 of round 2. (RS rolled 20 for DOD. Cyclops had 3 wounds at the time and still would have had to face normal attack from RS who had only 2 wounds).

Cyclops couldn’t use Field Commander and Telepath Rapport. Red Skull couldn’t use Master Manipulator. Red Skull was able to avoid OB often because of anticipating angles and LOS blockers. So Cyclops had to rely on normal attack much of the time which is +1 in both range and attack to Red Skulls, but allowed for Red Skull to be able to get in range and attack normally and get DOD chances, with one of them killing Cyclops. Cyclops had plenty of opportunities for normal attacks with height, but didn’t cash in on them enough. He did pretty good based on points, but I would have expected a little better as he has better range and attack.

-
- Melee Army/ Does it pass? Fail
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.for both tests.

Cyclops (180) had Hulk (370) and Warriors of Ashra x3 (150) for 700 points.

They went against Abomination (320) Knights of Weston x3 (210) Sir Gilbert (105) Brave Arrow (50) and Isamu (10) for 695 points.

Test 1- 6 KOW, Gilbert with 3 wounds, and Brave Arrow with 1 wound survive for victory. Cyclops was killed on turn 3 of round 7 after taking 1st wound from Isamu who had been activated a lot early on as an assassin, he took 2 wounds from Abomination and final wound from KOW. Cyclops had attempted OB 3 times. 1st time was in first round and against Brave Arrow because he was the only possible target but Concealment saved him. 2nd time he was able to attack 1 KOW and Gilbert in a straight line and killed the KOW and put 1 wound on Gilbert. 3rd attack with OB he only rolled 1 skull and both a KOW and Gilbert defended. He killed 1 KOW and put 2 wounds on Abomination with normal attack. So in all, he killed 2 KOW, put 1 wound on Gilbert and 2 wounds on Abomination. Field Commander didn’t come into play as there were only two other cards to activate and move OMs around on. FC doesn’t allow for him to move, so if there’s no one in range, then he misses a possible attack to switch OMs.

Test 2 – Cyclops (180) had Moriko (110) Ninjas (110) Saylind (80) and Brave Arrow for 530 points.

They went against Cyprien (150) Tagawa Samurai (120) Ornak (100) Sonya (45) Iskra (50) Recchets (50) and Isamu (10) for 525 points.

Cyprien with 0 wounds, Sonya with 0 wounds, Ornak with 0 wounds and 3 Tagawa Samurai survive for victory. This was a pretty a game where things went pretty well early for opponent. Cyclops was killed on turn 2 of round 1, yes you read that right. Ornak had activated Isamu to do his assassin work and activated Iskra. After Iskra moved out, she successfully summoned the Recchets on first try (she didn’t get to do that all game vs. Beast) and then placed the Recchets ahead of her and then took a turn with them. They went after Cyclops with the first one missing, but the second one rolled all skulls baby and Leathal Stung him to death. They also managed to Leathal Sting Saylind and Brave Arrow in the next round and kill a non-disappearing Ninja with normal attack. That’s certainly optimal performance by the Recchets. Cyclops had OM’s 2 and 3 on his card in the first round in order to attack and/or attempt to use Field Commander if necessary, but him getting killed so early wasted those two OM’s and allowed for the massacre to get worse for his team. The rest was pretty ugly as anyone can tell from the surviving victors. Stacking OM’s on Cyclops’ card for use of FC/TR can backfire and make him a prime target for attack.
.
-
-
-
-
-Ranged Army/ Does it pass? Fail
-
-Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh for both tests.

Test 1 had Cyclops (180) Iron Man (240) Silver Surfer (320) and Spiderman (160) for 900 points.

They went against Dr. Doom (245) Captain America (220) Red Skull (190) Venom (150) Zetacron (60) and Guilty (30) for 895 points.

Doom with 2 wounds, Captain America with 0 wounds, Guilty with 0 wounds and Zetacron with 0 wounds survive for victory. Captain America, Guilty and Zetacron were never even activated!

Cyclops died on turn 3 of round 4 when Venom put the smackdown on him for final 3 wounds. Cyclops had used FC once to take OM 3 off his card in case he got killed and put it on Spidey’s. Cyclops put 2 wounds on Venom with normal attack. He tried OB one time and missed Venom but put 1 wound on Doom. Cyclops didn’t get activated until turn 4 of round 3 because he wanted to get his more mobile and less vulnerable teammates over to get at Red Skull, so Spidey, Iron Man and Silver Surfer were busy early. However, Red Skull (from the safety of his starting zone) was able to continually activate Doom and Venom. Venom caused all kinds of problems and survived to turn 2 of round 6 when Spidey finally put him down. Silver Surfer was going to go after Red Skull but the Venom and Doom threat deterred him. In fact, after putting 2 wounds on Silver Surfer on turn 4 of round 2, Doom rolled successfully for Mind Exchange and sent Silver Surfer back toward his own starting zone and adjacent to Iron Man and Venom. He then had Silver Surfer use the Cosmic Force to put final 2 wounds on Iron Man. SS went after RS again and put 2 wounds on him with Cosmic Force, but didn’t remove any OMs. Venom came after SS and they duked it out. Once Silver Surfer was out of action, Red Skull was able to just use Venom and Doom to take out Cyclops and Spidey.



Test 2 –had Cyclops (180) Q10 (150) Skahen (120) and Kravs (100) for 550 points.

They went against Nilfheim (185) Nakitas (120) Laglor (110) James Murphy (75) and Zetacron (60) for 550 points.

Nilfheim with 3 wounds survives to take victory. Finally a close game! Cyclops put first 3 wounds on Murphy with OB from 8 spaces away. He was able to use OB to bypass Smoke Powder and kill a Nakita and put 3 wounds on Laglor. However, because he had to put himself in a more vulnerable position to use OB vs to kill the first Nakita and wound Laglor, it allowed for the remaining two Nakitas to attack with height vs Cyclops and kill him on turn 3 of round 2. Field Commander never came into play. The remaining forces fought on until Nilf came out the victor.


Analysis: Obviously Telepathic Rapport wasn’t able to get tested yet, so that power can’t be considered from these tests. However Field Commander didn’t come into play much and didn’t seem as useful as I had hoped. I was kind of disappointed with the lack of FC use, it’s situational and requires him to have at least one low numbered OM on his card as OM 3 doesn’t help. Often OMs were where they needed to be so he wouldn’t change anything anyway. FC also may cost him an attack if no opponent is in range for him since he can’t move, so a lost attack opportunity has to be considered when using FC, though once he’s engaged or in range, then he can still attack when using FC.

Optic Blast Special Attack was by no means devastating. At the most he was able to target two opponents with it who happened to be in a straight line. On two occasions of maybe 4 or 5 total OB attempts vs multiple opponents, he had to put himself in vulnerable position to get the shot off and then got killed on the following turn on both occasions. Mostly, OB was useful for a longer ranged attack vs single opponents when they lined up right and didn’t have LOS blockers in the way. It was helpful in that regard and helped having a long range Special Attack (with correct positioning) to bypass Thorian Speed and Smoke Powder.

Cyclops’ normal attack is quite formidable and did some damage. However, when he goes against competent figures in his normal attack range (not Gorillinators), he seems pretty fragile with 4 life and 4 defense and gets killed fairly easily. Ultimately, Cyclops seems like a tweener in a sense that he has a good ranged attack, but is kind of fragile to get too much into the fray, while his “command” type power doesn’t seem useful enough to waste OMs on for it. I tried to have him go against other leader types in Army Tests and the opponent’s always seemed to get more out of their leader types. Ornak was able to get two figures activated on first turn, Gilbert always was able get from 1 to 4 space free moves for up to 4 of his Knights and Red Skull was really good with Master Manipulator, which was also good in test for Iceman. So while I can’t judge Telepathic Rapport yet, I can say that I don’t feel Field Commander adds much pointwise to Cyclops’ card. I’d say that his points should be based on his base stats and OB, with only a slight addition for Field Commander. Perhaps he could be tested at 160 or 170 for the second test and we can get a better feel for his value.

[GreyOwl]

Here are some ideas to keep him at the higher (around 180) cost, and to make his abilities more useful.

We could change field commander so it doesn't require an order marker.

"If a Mutant you control receives at least one wound, you may rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Army Cards you control."

We could also change his Optic Blast Special Attack to not require LOS, so he can shoot through ruins, hills, etc.

[Hahma]

Here are some ideas to keep him at the higher (around 180) cost, and to make his abilities more useful.

We could change field commander so it doesn't require an order marker.

"If a Mutant you control receives at least one wound, you may rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Army Cards you control."

We could also change his Optic Blast Special Attack to not require LOS, so he can shoot through ruins, hills, etc.


The change to Field Commander should help, though I don't know if it should be limited to just Mutants, as his current Field Commander is for any Army Card you control. I would think Cyclops' leadership/tactical skills should be universally usable.

I don't know about having his OB go throw LOS blockers. That would open him up to being able to ignore destructible objects to attack figures behind them. It would also allow him to attack figures behind castle walls or even attack through a straight line of 6 wall pieces to get to a figure on the other side of them.

[GreyOwl]

The change to Field Commander should help, though I don't know if it should be limited to just Mutants, as his current Field Commander is for any Army Card you control. I would think Cyclops' leadership/tactical skills should be universally usable.

That sounds fine to me.



I don't know about having his OB go throw LOS blockers. That would open him up to being able to ignore destructible objects to attack figures behind them. It would also allow him to attack figures behind castle walls or even attack through a straight line of 6 wall pieces to get to a figure on the other side of them.

I'm just throwing out ideas, so if you don't think it will work, that's fine. Another option is to not require LOS, but reduce the attack value by 1 (or 2) if he doesn't have LOS. That would be thematic in that the object that he has to blow through absorbs some of the energy, and would also distinguish the power slightly from Mimring's.

[Hahma]

I'm just throwing out ideas, so if you don't think it will work, that's fine. Another option is to not require LOS, but reduce the attack value by 1 (or 2) if he doesn't have LOS. That would be thematic in that the object that he has to blow through absorbs some of the energy, and would also distinguish the power slightly from Mimring's.

Oh I know these are just ideas, I'm not trying to rip on them. :D I'm just thinking of how they may be abused or how thematic they would be. I guess the main thing that I have a problem with OB going through LOS blockers, is that it doesn't seem thematic that his power can go through things, but Iron Man's repulsors can't or Silver Surfer's Cosmic Force can't etc. etc. If we had OB go through LOS blockers, then undoubtedly we'd have to let others do so in the future and then what are the point of LOS blockers or DO's?

It's not that OB was totally useless, it's just that it wasn't that much of a devastating power. I guess we'll have to see what others think with Cyclops as well as the other heroes after they all get back from the holiday break.


As Bats would say, "It would be nice to get some input from others as well." ;)

[GreyOwl]

Regarding the Iron Man and Silver Surfer comparisons, I think one of the purposes of C3G was to make the figures a little more thematic. Aren't there a lot of instances where Cyclops shoots through things? Maybe I'm wrong though. I don't recall Iron Man doing that kind of thing often (though he probably could).

[Hahma]

Regarding the Iron Man and Silver Surfer comparisons, I think one of the purposes of C3G was to make the figures a little more thematic. Aren't there a lot of instances where Cyclops shoots through things? Maybe I'm wrong though. I don't recall Iron Man doing that kind of thing often (though he probably could).

Yeah, he may be able to shoot through things, but I don't know about shooting through a mountain to hit opponents or through a tree to hit 6 opponent's lined up in a row behind it. If he shot through a door to hit several opponents behind it there shouldn't be anything left of the door. The reasoning that was brought up for a straight line beam being able to hit several opponents is that it wasn't a narrow laser going through the figures to hit the ones behind them. A hex wide beam was supposed to be wide enough to hit up to 8 figures lined up in a row by being wide enough to go around each individual figure. So taking that into account, I don't know how thematic it would be for him to blast opponent's through a solid object without destroying the object because the OB that should be able to hit all those figures in a row should be able to blast huge hole through the object in front of them. If there's a figure 4 spaces behind the castle door and it gets killed by OB but the door is still there, it kind of seems odd to me, just like blasting opponent's on the other side of a castle wall would seem weird because there should be a hole big enough for Cyclops and others to pass through after the blast.

Sorry to be a downer on it. It would be cool in a way to do it that way, but there are other superheroes with blasting powers or punching powers in comics and cartoons that should be able to take out opponents on the other side of solid objects, so then it might become a slippery slope.

[GreyOwl]

That makes sense. I forgot we were going with the "wide beam" interpretation for his optic blast, rather than the one where it goes through things.

[NecroBlade]

Well without needing LoS, OB* could still hit the door AND the people behind it, but I agree it'd be weird for the door not to be obliterated first. And then there's the whole 'shooting through mountains' problem. I've honestly never seen Mimring's Fire Line be much more effective than what you've described, though, so this isn't really a surprise to me.

If FC and TR are both less-than-useful most of the time, perhaps we can come up with a single, combined power that works better than the separate ones?

After revealing an OM on this card, instead of taking that turn with Cyclops you may rearrange any unrevealed OMs on Army Cards you control. Then choose another Army Card you control. If you don't choose a Unique Telepath Hero, reveal (but do not remove) an OM on that Army Card and take a turn with that Hero or Squad. If you do choose a Unique Telepath Hero, take a turn with that Hero.

I don't know, just a quick mish-mash of the two powers. :shrug:

*I used to work with a guy named OB, so this all sounds very strange to me. :p

[Hahma]

Well without needing LoS, OB* could still hit the door AND the people behind it,


Only if it destroys the door first though and the blast could continue to the figures behind it. So if the door had one or two lives left, it could do it. But if the door isn't destroyed then the blast ends.

Perhaps we can work on the FC and TR power mix later or tweak them as they stand. Or just adjust his points down to match his current value. Regardless, he will need some further looking into prior to the next playtests.

[NecroBlade]

Well without needing LoS, OB* could still hit the door AND the people behind it,


Only if it destroys the door first though and the blast could continue to the figures behind it. So if the door had one or two lives left, it could do it. But if the door isn't destroyed then the blast ends.
No, if you said he didn't need line of sight to hit things on the 8 spaces, the figures behind the door would be hit whether or not the door was there. But it's still the wrong way to go, IMO.

Trying to come up with something to give OB more oomph without breaking it: What if, if we really wanted the change to 'no LoS needed', since you roll for the closest figure first anyway, you only got to roll for the next figure/DO in line if the previous one was wounded? That way it would be like punching through the figure/DO or knocking it out of the way (going way back to discussion of OB being a 'concussive' blast). :ponder:

[GreyOwl]

Trying to come up with something to give OB more oomph without breaking it: What if, if we really wanted the change to 'no LoS needed', since you roll for the closest figure first anyway, you only got to roll for the next figure/DO in line if the previous one was wounded? That way it would be like punching through the figure/DO or knocking it out of the way (going way back to discussion of OB being a 'concussive' blast). :ponder:


I like that idea.

[Hahma]

No, if you said he didn't need line of sight to hit things on the 8 spaces, the figures behind the door would be hit whether or not the door was there. But it's still the wrong way to go, IMO.

Trying to come up with something to give OB more oomph without breaking it: What if, if we really wanted the change to 'no LoS needed', since you roll for the closest figure first anyway, you only got to roll for the next figure/DO in line if the previous one was wounded? That way it would be like punching through the figure/DO or knocking it out of the way (going way back to discussion of OB being a 'concussive' blast). :ponder:


You're right regarding hitting the figures behind the door without LOS, I misread and thought you were referring to him as is.

If you require a wound on a figure in line to continue to the next one, it would allow him the no LOS for figs and DO's but eliminate the confusion for other things like ruins, trees or castle walls. However it might weaken him in occasions when he has clear LOS vs. multiple opponents and can't have a chance vs the 2-6 figure in line if doesn't wound the first, whereas currently those figures would still have to roll defense. So while he may be safer by not needing LOS and keeping his distance, it lowers the damage potential for OB. I kind of like it, but I think it might be a wash as far as OB value and his points might still be adjusted.

I don't know:shrug:

I have stuff to do, so I'll leave off here. Thanks for the input guys.

[NecroBlade]

Trying to come up with something to give OB more oomph without breaking it: What if, if we really wanted the change to 'no LoS needed', since you roll for the closest figure first anyway, you only got to roll for the next figure/DO in line if the previous one was wounded? That way it would be like punching through the figure/DO or knocking it out of the way (going way back to discussion of OB being a 'concussive' blast). :ponder:


I like that idea.
I thought you might. ;)

Hahma, I agree he would be less able to hit multiple figures, but from your playtests (and my experience with Mimring) he never really had the opportunity to anyway, right? The change would better enable his sniper/support role, IMO, without harming his multi-attack capabilities too much.

[Hahma]

Okay, one more thing about Cyclops' OB. While it currently functions like Mimring's Fire attack, Mimring has 10 straight lines coming from his figure to attack because he's double based, whereas Cyclops only has 6 straight lines coming from his figure. So there is that difference as well.

[Hahma]

Trying to come up with something to give OB more oomph without breaking it: What if, if we really wanted the change to 'no LoS needed', since you roll for the closest figure first anyway, you only got to roll for the next figure/DO in line if the previous one was wounded? That way it would be like punching through the figure/DO or knocking it out of the way (going way back to discussion of OB being a 'concussive' blast). :ponder:


I like that idea.
I thought you might. ;)

Hahma, I agree he would be less able to hit multiple figures, but from your playtests (and my experience with Mimring) he never really had the opportunity to anyway, right? The change would better enable his sniper/support role, IMO, without harming his multi-attack capabilities too much.


I agree that it would keep him safer and make him more of a sniper, and like you brought up, my playtests reflect that he didn't get opportunities to attack many figures anyway.

I could roll with the change that you brought up Necro. :thumbsup: I suppose it will have to go to a vote and all before it gets finalized and further playtesting is done.

[IAmBatman]

What if we considered increasing the range of his Optic Blast so that he would be able to get more use out of it and wouldn't necessarily sacrifice attacks as often when using FC?
I really like the elegance of the current powers and wording, so I'm reluctant to throw it all out and start fresh at this point. Hopefully we can give him more oomph with small tweaks.
Also, is a slightly lower cost that bad for this guy? He's basically a human who can shoot laser beams from his eyes. 150-180 feels like a good range for him to me, but you guys might not be satisfied with something that low. Let me know on that one.
I'd really like to try to keep all his synergy powers tied to OMs just to avoid abuse with other powers of that sort.

[GreyOwl]

I'm okay with Cyclops in the 150-180 range.

[Balantai]

I'm okay with Cyclops in the 150-180 range.
Ditto

[IAmBatman]

I'll have to try him out before I can comment on how useful his FC power is ... but do you think increasing the range on his OB by one might help both those powers become more effective, Hahma?

Edit: And after the playtesting, where do you think his cost would be at? In that 150-180 range at least?

[Hahma]

Well it wouldn't hurt, but the LOS blockers would still stop it and the straight line leaves a lot of dead space, especially if he uses FC and can't move to get a straight line.

I don't have time now to get into it more than that and I don't have a problem with his points at 150-180. My biggest concern regarding points and powers is that it be consistent throughout the customs we create, and that some favorites don't get powered up while others get powered down.

Edit bolded

[IAmBatman]

LOS are the bane of snipers. It's Syvarris' problem as well. I think it's OK, though. He's still going to be worth it for his attack even though there will be limits on its use.
And, yeah, favorites do tend to be pumped up, but I think the important thing is that characters end up in a cost range that "feels right" to the majority of us. There are enough experienced players and comics fans in our project that if the majority is happy with the cost range, it probably fits decently. I kind of like the idea of this set of X-Men being lower costed heroes that work together very well as an army (mostly thanks to Prof X) the way the Elf Wizards do.

[Hahma]

I edited previous post to reflect that I don't want favorites to get bumped up too much.

Example: I don't want to see Robin or Penquin at 180

And lower point/powered X-Men can work for me only if they work great as a team and match their points vs. same pointed armies from Marvel Set and World's Finest and Classic HS. An 800 point X-Men team better be able to take on 800 points of other teams, especially since they are team orientated and are meant to work well together. The synergy and complementary powers of an X-Men team should be like Gilbert/Kow/Finn/Thorgrim/Raelin. They make an awesome team, but maybe not as awesome individually.

[IAmBatman]

The goal is definitely to have them be able to take on their points worth as a team. I think Prof X (allowing two moves at a time) is going to be the crux of that. I'm hoping Cyclops is going to be a big part of that, though. If his synergy powers aren't quite working for that now, we'll have to revisit them. (Hard to say from my point of view, because I haven't played him yet and the powers look good on paper).
And, for the record, Robin is 140-150 to me and Penguin is 120-150. :-) And that's only because they both have good synergies and weaponry as characters. I think I'd like to see Cyclops put no lower than 160, really. Batman should be able to take him out one on one, though.

[GreyOwl]

I really think the special attack is much more limiting on Cyclops than it is on Mimring, due to what Hahma mentioned earlier - since Mimring is double-based, he has more lines to choose from. I still think something different would work better for Cyclops, but I just don't know what.

[IAmBatman]

I think there are a couple of different options ...
We could bump the range up to 10 on that power to make it a little less limiting (though it'd still have a lot of the same limits).
We could go back to the idea of a more tactical strike, where we could go with an Acid Breath type of approach, rolling one unblockable attack die instead of the D20. This would prevent him from out and out killing anyone with more than one life with the attack, but would be killer on squads (three tries to kill a squad figure each turn with a 50% chance of success each time).

[Hahma]

I agree that Bats should be able to take Cyclops out one on one of course.

That's about right for Robin and Penguin.

I'm only concerned I guess is that Prof. X is going to be the ONLY reason this team will be good and worth their combined points. Most of the time, he's not even in the field with them or guiding them from Cerebro. That's where Cyclops' and Storm's leadership qualities kick in and allow them to work well as a team without Prof. X.

I don't know. It's too early to really get into this now. Once more playtests are done, others can get a better feel for how well these units work.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds like we need to build up his leadership powers a bit, then. I'm fine doing so, if we can figure out a good way - but the OM restriction needs to stay on them, IMO.

[Hahma]

That's fine.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

What if you just slightly changed Field Commander to this:

MUTANT FIELD COMMANDER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of moving Cyclops, you may rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Army Cards you control and move any other Mutant you control up to 5 spaces.

I mean in my opinion, just moving OMs around really doesn't do that much good especially when you need to waste Cyclops's movement phase. This way, thematically he can be telling everyone what to do and where to go.

I know I'm really late to this discussion, so maybe this was already rejected, but that's the first thing that popped into my head.

[Hahma]

How about something like this?


FIELD COMMANDER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of moving Cyclops, you may move up to two Unique Heroes that you control their normal move. Any figures moved by Field Commander must be within 8 clear sight spaces of Cyclops before they move.

[Hahma]

You Ninja'd me Hi1 :D

I like your take on it, though he might have the line about any Mutant moved by MFC must have been within 8 clear sight spaces before they move. Unless we want to presume they all have comlinks and can communicate that way anywhere on the map. This would help demonstrate his leadership abilities, particularly with mutants.

Nice idea and thanks for the help. :thumbsup:

[IAmBatman]

Great idea, Hi1! And I'm liking Field Commander being an amalgamation of a power that lets him lead everyone and one that lets him lead mutants specifically. How's this look?

MUTANT FIELD COMMANDER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of moving Cyclops, you may rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Army Cards you control and choose one other Mutant you control within 8 clear sight spaces of Cyclops. Move the chosen figure up to 5 spaces.

[Hahma]

That can help him keep the OM rearrange option and move another Mutant.

[IAmBatman]

Yep, that's the idea. That should really show off his leadership without making it feel like he's really losing something in his turn.
Add in a couple more spaces to his range, and you think he's in good shape? Or are we really worried about the straight line limitation? (I hate being away from my Scape for so long ... resorting to theoryscaping when I should be playtesting! :-) ).

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Hey glad everyone likes it. It's good to be back. :)

You could tighten up the wording a bit. Although it does make one really long sentence...

MUTANT FIELD COMMANDER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of moving Cyclops, you may rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Army Cards you control and move any other Mutant you control within 8 clear sight spaces of Cyclops up to 5 spaces.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I went for two sentences intentionally, but it might be a good idea to tighten it like that. In some ways, it seems like it almost might be something we need to decide by seeing how it looks on a card.

[GreyOwl]

I like hi1's suggestion.

[IAmBatman]

I like it too, though I think we need to slide in the word "immediately" to help clarify a bit:


MUTANT FIELD COMMANDER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of moving Cyclops, you may rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Army Cards you control and immediately move any other Mutant you control within 8 clear sight spaces of Cyclops up to 5 spaces.

Or is that overkill?

[GreyOwl]

I think it's good.

[IAmBatman]

All right - the first post is updated. How about people feeling about the idea of upping the range on his Optic Blast to 9?

[Balantai]

I'd like to chime in on Field Commander if I may. I don't like the limitation to Mutants. I'd prefer that he's allowed to move any figure. Being a Mutant doesn't immediately qualify you as a member of the X-Men. Using Mutant is a Band-aid to a larger issue that we chose to avoid...Teams. For the same reason that we don't limit Captain America to Avengers, we shouldn't limit Cyclops to Mutants.

[GreyOwl]

I'm good with not limiting it to Mutants. I'm also okay with increasing the range of OB to 9 if playtesting warrants it.

[IAmBatman]

I kind of like the power as a hybrid of he can both synergize with every card (OM switching) and with mutants specifically (bonus movement). We did a similar approach with Professor X's mind link (can move any figure instead, or can move two mutant figures instead) and it worked well.
And yeah, it's a bit of a bandaid, but I'd argue it's a pretty effective bandaid. So what if he can help out some mutants who aren't members of the X-Men? I guess that doesn't bother me and would be a fun thing. I like the idea of developing the mutant faction in lieu of being able to develop the X-Men team specifically.

[Hahma]

An idea to make Cyclops Mutant Field Commander and himself more useful in general perhaps.

I don't know if making his OB range 9 is going to do much. He's got 6 straight lines coming from him and it's hard to get in position for OB as is because of reasons I've listed previously.

Would anyone be interested in raising his normal range from 6 to 8 and lower the normal attack to 4. Then lower OB range from 8 to 6 and increase the attack to 5 ?

This could allow him to use MFC more often effectively because he'd be able to attack more often and stay away from some danger. Currently to do the same he'd have to be within 6 spaces or 8 spaces and be limited to straight line shots that often might not be available.

Just a thought.

[IAmBatman]

That could work.

[Balantai]

An idea to make Cyclops Mutant Field Commander and himself more useful in general perhaps.

I don't know if making his OB range 9 is going to do much. He's got 6 straight lines coming from him and it's hard to get in position for OB as is because of reasons I've listed previously.

Would anyone be interested in raising his normal range from 6 to 8 and lower the normal attack to 4. Then lower OB range from 8 to 6 and increase the attack to 5 ?

This could allow him to use MFC more often effectively because he'd be able to attack more often and stay away from some danger. Currently to do the same he'd have to be within 6 spaces or 8 spaces and be limited to straight line shots that often might not be available.

Just a thought.

I like this idea, Hahma. What do we need to do to move forward with this change?

[IAmBatman]

I don't think that's too major a change. I'm happy with it either way, so if there's support for this change, I'm all for it. Honestly, for things like this, I think we just need to take the temperature of the group, not bother with voting or anything. If about one more person expresses support for this change, I'll update the first post.
Man, though, it's driving me crazy that I won't be able to do any playtesting for at least 2 weeks ... I need a plastic fix. :-D

[Balantai]

Bats,

Can you update the first post with Hahma's proposed changes?

[IAmBatman]

I was hoping to get feedback from at least one more person before making that change.

[GreyOwl]

I can get behind Hahma's change.

[IAmBatman]

Consider it changed. ;) (as soon as I actually do it ... which will be in just a minute or two here :-D ).

Edit: done.

[NecroBlade]

No you're not. It still says "4 dice" in the text. Also, were we going with the "punch through" version, or just sticking to Fire Line?

[IAmBatman]

Just sticking to fire line, and thanks for the catch - I'll change that.

[Griffin]

I think that Cyclops' normal attack which is an optic ray should definitely be at least as powerful as Batman's punch.... I suggest we bump the normal attack up to 5. I think that in close combat, Cyclops could hit as hard as Batman, not to mention that the optic ray is more powerful than even that, but for game balance, it needs to at least be a 5. Also, Cyclops' defense needs to be 5 as well. He should have slightly better staying power than that of Life of 4 and Defense of 4.

[Balantai]

I think that Cyclops' normal attack which is an optic ray should definitely be at least as powerful as Batman's punch.... I suggest we bump the normal attack up to 5. I think that in close combat, Cyclops could hit as hard as Batman, not to mention that the optic ray is more powerful than even that, but for game balance, it needs to at least be a 5. Also, Cyclops' defense needs to be 5 as well. He should have slightly better staying power than that of Life of 4 and Defense of 4.
I actually disagree with both of these. Maybe I could see increasing his normal attack up to 5, but I really don't think it's necessary. I definitely don't think Cyclops should have the same defense as Batman.

Overall, I don't mind that many of our X-Men have good synergy, but not great staying power. Low life and low defense are pretty thematic for Cyclops in my opinion.

[IAmBatman]

I also like his stats as is.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

But where as Batman trained all his life, so has Cyclops. And Cyclops doesn't have the burden of keeping up the pretense of an alter-ego. I definately see Cyclops as having the same training physically as Batman, plus his added defense is represented by Evasive Strike 15, a power which Cyclops cannot mimic. I think bump up attack to 5 and either defense or life, but not both.

[IAmBatman]

Does Cyclops' outfit match the batsuit in terms of armor and defensive benefits?
I think the fact that he can attack at a much larger range is Cyclops' defense. There's a lot more to that number 5 for Batman than just his training.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

If your argument is armor, yeah I do think the X-suits are as high-tech as the Batsuit. Is not Hank McCoy or Forge, both X-Men, capable of creating possibly better armor than Batman/Bruce Wayne? Now I realize he uses WayneTech for ideas and advances, but my point is yeah I can definately see them as equals. Forge's mutant power is the ability to create a machine to to whatever he wants, so if you follow to the logical conclusion, he could make them suits that make them invulnerable; but that would be broken. So equal is ok with me.

[IAmBatman]

Meh, I'm probably bat-biased but I don't buy them being equal in that regard. If that's the overwhelming opinion, I can go with it. But I'd rather see a few people playtest him and then if he has too much of a glass jaw up his defense then.
Really, though, right now he's being designed as a long range sniper and a cheerleader - both of which typically have lower defenses in this game (we went that way with Green Arrow, who we could also justify giving a higher defense if we wanted, but didn't). So 4 defense seems consistent with our approach thus far, IMO, and I'm in favor of keeping it that way.
Not one I'm going to be stubborn about, though, if people are highly in favor of going 5.

[stubobj]

If I could throw my 2cents in on this. The only thing I feel needs changed is the attack. I agree that it should be at least as powerful as Batman's punch. I see Cyclops as the one who will stay at range commanding his team. While Batman is the type to get up close and personal. And about the Xmen having better armor, I honestly dont think they would. They are all about their special powers while Batman needs his armor since he doesnt have any special powers.

[Griffin]

If I could throw my 2cents in on this. The only thing I feel needs changed is the attack. I agree that it should be at least as powerful as Batman's punch. I see Cyclops as the one who will stay at range commanding his team. While Batman is the type to get up close and personal. And about the Xmen having better armor, I honestly dont think they would. They are all about their special powers while Batman needs his armor since he doesnt have any special powers.
I am going with Stubobj on this. I am sold off of the defense increase due to Bats points on Cyclops being a ranged attacking cheerleader, but his attack should be bumped up to 5 IMO.

[IAmBatman]

Well, his special attack is 5 already, so he's got it covered there. I'm not sure if we need his normal attack to be identical to his special attack or not.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well as I said I think his life could go up instead. As field leader of the X-Men, I think he should have a little more staying power.
I still disagree about the suits, but I will let it go.

[IAmBatman]

I think I'd be more willing to get on board with a life of 5. I think being a mutant it'd be justified. It's not something I'm passionate about one way or another, though.

[Velenne]

With a Range of 8, seems like he'd have a good chance of doing 5 on his normal attack anyway. 4 seems right to me. :reapershrug:

[IAmBatman]

With a Range of 8, seems like he'd have a good chance of doing 5 on his normal attack anyway. 4 seems right to me. :reapershrug:

Agreed. The attack is less situational than his special attack, so it's easier to use in many situations and with that range he should be able to get some height advantage.
I also see him being pared with Angel a lot, which should help him get height advantage and help defend him against multiple attacks in a single turn.

[GreyOwl]

I think his stats are fine as is. Batman, arguably, has more training, but is also much more determined.

[Griffin]

So it looks like Cyclops can stay right where he is in powers and stats, and I feel a little bit better about playtesting him.

However, I do have one last concern/question. Can we get rid of the 8 Clear Sight Spaces aspect of field commander? Surely Cyclops has a cell phone :lol:, and according to Hahma's playtest analysis, that power wasn't very effective even earlier on when it wasn't mutant specific.

[IAmBatman]

I'd want to keep at least clear sight as a requirement to differentiate it from the telepathic powers of that nature.

[Griffin]

I'd want to keep at least clear sight as a requirement to differentiate it from the telepathic powers of that nature.Fair enough. Would you be on board with a "Red Skull Clear Sight" requirement then, and just get rid of the range aspect?

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, after reviewing some other cards, Sir Gilbert requires 8 clear sight spaces, and Ulginesh requires 6 clear sight spaces, but Red Skull and Kato both require just clear sight. I think this power is arguably less powerful than any of those, so clear sight should be enough to keep it balanced.

[Griffin]

Yeah, after reviewing some other cards, Sir Gilbert requires 8 clear sight spaces, and Ulginesh requires 6 clear sight spaces, but Red Skull and Kato both require just clear sight. I think this power is arguably less powerful than any of those, so clear sight should be enough to keep it balanced.
Awesome!

[Adam Souza]

The issue I personally have with a fire line attack (remember I don't have a vote just an interest) is that his beam is like a laser & therefore would need to be burning a hole through each figure to get to the next & I can't see this happening without killing the guy in front. Mimring's fire line is fire so swirls around as it moves & therefore I don't have a problem with fire doing this but I do with a laser. I can see him sweeping around with it or it going out in a broad V (like an equilateral triangle - which I am only against because it's such a hard & foreign concept to HS).

cheers

In a feat that defies normal physics, Cyclops beam is concussive force.

I know it looks like a laser, focuses like a laser, but somewhere along the way Marvel decided that burning your oppenents horribly wasn't terribly heroic and it's consussive force. At least according to my old Marvel Universes and Marvel RPG.

So with a strong enough blast he could bulldoze everyone in a straight path.

:deadhorse:

[Hahma]

I guess I missed the latest discussion about this guy. At least he just needs clear sight now w/o range restriction for his cheerleading powers. :D

[Balantai]

Did we decide to make any changes to Cyclops? I'm going to set up a board after dinner and try to get in a few tests.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah - we canceled the restriction on his leadership power that only let it be used from 8 spaces away and made it just clear sight. I updated the first post accordingly - so look there. :-)

[Balantai]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Cyclops____________
(please only use red print for all of your responses) C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
For this section, no play testing is required, only comment below if necessary. This is a guideline for things that you should be looking for as you play-test.
- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and what are the stipulations on the power if there are any.

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM (Be sure to list what units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)
Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? Yes
Cyclops vs Joker: Joker wins 0 wounds / Turn 3 Round 1
Wanna Hear Another takes out Cyclops with three consecutive attacks. :twisted:

Cyclops vs Joker: Joker wins 3 wounds / Turn 0 Round 1.5
Glyph of Wannor kills Cyclops at the end of round 1.

Cyclops vs Joker: Cyclops wins 2 wounds / Turn 2 Round 2
Cyclops was able to keep distance and height advantage.

Cyclops Vs Black Canary: Cyclops wins 1 wounds / Turn 3 Round 1
Cyclops leads with some pretty lucky dice rolls. 4 skull atk, then 3 skull atk.

Cyclops Vs Black Canary: Cyclops wins 0 wounds / Turn 3 Round 2
Cyclops was able to keep distance from Black Canary the entire game.

Cyclops Vs Black Canary: Cyclops wins 1 wounds / Turn 3 Round 1
Black Canary won initiative at the start of the second round and was able to force engagement with Cyclops. He couldn't take her.

Squad/ Does it pass? No (I don't see how anyone ever passes this???)
List your Squad Test observations.
Stingers x3 Vs Cyclops: Stingers wins 1 Destroyed / Turn 3 Round 1
There's just way too many for Cyclops to be effective against.

Melee Based Army/ Does it pass?
List your Melee Army Test observations.

Ranged Based Army/ Does it pass?
List your Ranged Army Test observations.

[Balantai]

After playing a few games, Cyclops feels pretty close, but his Special Attack is lacking. I didn't use it once. I would suggest either increasing it's range or upping it's attack to 6.

I'm also not sure he needs 6 movement. It definitely helps him keep distance for his range, but is it thematic? I never saw him as the super-athlete.

[IAmBatman]

I could see maybe 5 move and 7 range for his special attack as an adjustment.
When you get to playtesting him in army tests, I think it might be OK (and a good idea) to include the cost finalized Beast, Angel, and Iceman in there to give a good idea of how his Mutant Synergy works.
We don't have any Telepaths ready to go yet, unfortunately, but I think it'd be a really inaccurate look at his cost to test him without checking any of those mutant synergies at any point.