Height and climbing

[RichardD]

From the FAQ (yes, I did read it):

How the hell does height work? I'm Marro. I have height 4. What can I climb, what can't I climb.

Marro is height 4. Therefore, if he is standing at the bottom of a 4 high cliff, he can climb it. If he's at the bottom of a 5 high cliff, he can’t. It's that simple.


From the rulebook, 2nd Ed (gasp - read that too):

A figure cannot move up a number of levels equal to or higher than its Height number all at once.


So either I don't understand something pretty fundamental about the English language, or the FAQ is wrong. Maybe it was different in teh first edition.

Anyone care to point out which is right? Can a 4-high Marro climb up 4 steps all at once?

[UranusPChicago]

The 2nd Edition rules are correct. The FAQ is wrong as it was based on the 1st Edition rules. Good catch!

Yoohoo, mods! Handle it, handle it!

Welcome aboard, RichardD.

[TheRealQ]

The FAQ is wrong. An easy mistake, they may have been confusing it with the rule on adjacent and engagement.

[netherspirit]

Like UPC said, the FAQ answer is based on the 1st edition rules.

[RichardD]

I spent Saturday and Sunday demoing the game in the UK (something of an achievement, given just how little I'd actually played the game), with the help of another UK-based HeroscapeHQ member, David. The one aspect I found most difficult to paraphrase and explain was the various height rules - OK, in 2nd Ed they're all consistent, but they are rather wordy and more complicated than they needed to be IMO.

I've got a pretty keen eye for rules, having done a bit of playtesting for a number of games designers. Reiner Knizia is an absolute master designer, who hates fiddly little rules that are hard to remember or explain, and I can say with some degree of certainty that he'd not have put up with a rule in a game for 8-year olds that talks about "equal to or greater than"; far better to have reduced all the height numbers by one, and said "a figure cannot move up a number of levels greater than its height number all at once" for exactly the same effect. It's a small change to the wording, but it would have made the rule easier to understand and remember.

I have nothing but admiration for all the work done on HS by the guys at Hasbro, so don't want this to be seen as a major criticism, but it's something that could have been done to clean up the rules. On the other hand, I remain impressed that the costings of the figures seem spot-on (Gorillinators suck at 90 points? They move fast, defend reliably and have a decent ranged attack, worth every point IMO), that the game hasn't suffered from "feature creep" or a need to aquire the latest - or worse, the earliest - figures to be competitive, and that they haven't run out of steam yet.

[UranusPChicago]

RichardD, you are going to be a welcome addition to the site I can tell.

I think you will find this community very willing to help you out with any other questions you might have. Good observation on the rules. With any game, we can find something that we might have done differently. But like you said, I think they have done an amazing job with Heroscape so far.

[Grungebob]

I spent Saturday and Sunday demoing the game in the UK (something of an achievement, given just how little I'd actually played the game), with the help of another UK-based HeroscapeHQ member, David. The one aspect I found most difficult to paraphrase and explain was the various height rules - OK, in 2nd Ed they're all consistent, but they are rather wordy and more complicated than they needed to be IMO.

I've got a pretty keen eye for rules, having done a bit of playtesting for a number of games designers. Reiner Knizia is an absolute master designer, who hates fiddly little rules that are hard to remember or explain, and I can say with some degree of certainty that he'd not have put up with a rule in a game for 8-year olds that talks about "equal to or greater than"; far better to have reduced all the height numbers by one, and said "a figure cannot move up a number of levels greater than its height number all at once" for exactly the same effect. It's a small change to the wording, but it would have made the rule easier to understand and remember.

I have nothing but admiration for all the work done on HS by the guys at Hasbro, so don't want this to be seen as a major criticism, but it's something that could have been done to clean up the rules. On the other hand, I remain impressed that the costings of the figures seem spot-on (Gorillinators suck at 90 points? They move fast, defend reliably and have a decent ranged attack, worth every point IMO), that the game hasn't suffered from "feature creep" or a need to aquire the latest - or worse, the earliest - figures to be competitive, and that they haven't run out of steam yet.Excellent point and good first posts Richard!! Welcome!!

[sigmazero13]

Agreed, welcome to the site, and excellent post.

As a thought, and I don't have my figures right in front of me to see (but now I've given myself a project to try out): I think the height values of the figures may have been based on trying to make them relative to the number of hexes (at least roughly). Thus, a 4-height figure I think is supposed to be approximately 4-hexes tall.

Maybe tonight I'll do some comparison's with the figures that I actually own, and see :)

[LilNewbie]

Welcome to the site, RichardD! I've always felt they should have just worded it greater than the figures height. Height is somewhat tied to the number of levels the figure is equal to. It's not 100 percent accurate due to variations in sculpts but it works fine for the game setting. The way it is worded now causes some confusion at first but it becomes second nature after a few turns playing the game.

Newb.

[sigmazero13]

Also, here's an alternate way of thinking in "simpler" terms using the curernt way it's played.

Instead of thinking "you can't climb if it's greater than or equal", just think of it is as "you CAN climb if it's LESS than your height".

Thinking of what you CAN do in this case makes it a little simpler than figuring out what you CAN'T climb. And then thinking adjacency becomes a simple matter of "if you can climb it, you are adjacent to it"

[RichardD]

Good idea. I was wondering about the best way to word it, as I'm re-designing the rules handout that we used at the weekend to try to make it as simple as possible. Hence my gripe about the current wording. As you say, making it that you can climb steps LESS than your height is noce and simple (why didn't I think of that?)

[Phoenix]

that clarification helps a ton. i've been playing it wrong all along....thanks all!

(and i will be thinking of it as "less than" from now on)

[mathguy]

Height also affects adjacency, and in the same way as climbing, you always have to be taller (be able to look/reach over an obstacle/cliff/wall) to be adjacent. I always visualize the rule as you have to be able to reach over to be able to climb or melee attack.

[CornPuff]

Oh No! I've been playing "old school"
I dont have any second edition rulebooks so I never caught that running change.

I am all about rules clarifications. Anything to help new players learn the game or veteran players resolve disputes is awesome in my book.

So, Richard, is there a chance you could post the rules handout you are using? :D Welcome to the Heroscapers!
I'm also very jealous that you get to hang out with Reiner Knizia; Tigris and Euphrates is one of my favorite games.

[RichardD]

Already done that - it's in the "Other Heroscape Additions" folder :)

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=280