C3G Rise of the Mutants Release Thread!!!

[IAmBatman]

C3G X-men Expansion Set: RISE OF THE MUTANTS
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/page1_h2g_original.jpg
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/page2_jtm_original.jpg



Good Guys
PROFESSOR X (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967597#post967597)
CYCLOPS (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27878)
JEAN GREY (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27880)
BEAST (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27877)
ANGEL (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27876)
ICEMAN (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27879)
CIVILIANS (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967599#post967599)

Bad Guys
MAGNETO (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27883)
MYSTIQUE (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967605#post967605)
BLOB (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27948)
TOAD (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27887)
PYRO (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967607#post967607)
SENTINELS (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27888)



With several hard working months under our belt, we can finally say that Rise of the Mutants is finished!!!!! :woot:





This thread has been a discussion thread through the entire process, but now we can use it to express our excitement of finishing this set.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

My only suggestion is for a name is X-Men: First Class, which is the title of a current comic featuring these guys.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I would love to volunteer for the Figure pics with pricing to come later. So here goes.
First off I found 6 different minis for Cyclops
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops4.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops6.jpg

Then I found 5 different minis for the Beast, two of which are human, but one of which has a blue skinned variant.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast4.jpg
This one comes with blue skin :up:
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast1.jpg
Here are two options for Angel with a third one, Archangel.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Angel1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Angel2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Archangel1.jpg
Jean has 5 options plus Phoenix.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean6.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean4.jpg
Iceman has 3 choices.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman1.jpg
Professor X has 4 options.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX4.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX1.jpg

Magneto has a few options as well.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto3.jpg
and Magneto as Xorn
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto4.jpg

Mystique and Juggernaut have two options each.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Mystique1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Mystique2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Juggernaut2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Juggernaut1.jpg
Pyro has one option.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Pyro.jpg
Sentinels have two, big ones.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Sentinel.jpg
and smaller human sized ones.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/SentinelTrooper.jpg

Finally, Toad has a couple of options. His mini and a horrorclix mini (Wildman of Borneo) that I think could work.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Toad1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Toad2.jpg

Using Horrorclix, I did actually come up with a couple more civilian rioters. What do you all think of these?
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilians4.jpg

I also still like the idea of doing Multiple Man, although I can get behind civilians now, so here he is.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/MultipleMan.jpg

Thought I'd move this over here.

[IAmBatman]

OK, before we get too much into figures (we'll get there, I promise), let's make sure we finalize our expectations of the set. In terms of what we're looking to do in a Master set, does everyone like the template (numbers of units, rules additions, maps, glyphs, etc.)? Any more opinions on scenarios? Or is it all just warm and fuzzies for Balantai's cool Choose Your Own Adventure style 7 scenarios?
Any more chat about dropping Wolverine for Prof. X. or are we ready to vote on that one? I believe, by our bylaws, we'll actually need a unanimous vote to do that, since we already voted Wolvie in.
And also, thoughts on the name? Origins vs. First Class? I'm OK with either, honestly.

[GreyOwl]

I like the idea of using Professor X. As for the name of the set, I think we should wait until we flesh out the scenarios and pick a name that has something to do with that.

[IAmBatman]

I think that as long as the name of the set is thematic to the characters it will work with the campaign. I mean, "World's Finest" doesn't exactly echo the campaign in the DC set (a better echo would probably be "Darkseid's Arrival") but I feel "World's Finest" is a better title to encompass everything the story has to offer.
I mean, for instance, would "Days of Future Past" be a better set name than "X-Men: First Class" if we decided to go with a Days of Future Past type storyline? (Not that these characters particularly lend themselves to that choice, but you see what I mean?)

[NecroBlade]

In terms of what we're looking to do in a Master set, does everyone like the template (numbers of units, rules additions, maps, glyphs, etc.)?
Seems fine.

Any more opinions on scenarios? Or is it all just warm and fuzzies for Balantai's cool Choose Your Own Adventure style 7 scenarios?
I'd definitely like to explore that type of variable campaign.

Any more chat about dropping Wolverine for Prof. X. or are we ready to vote on that one? I believe, by our bylaws, we'll actually need a unanimous vote to do that, since we already voted Wolvie in.
I'm OK with either one. Wolverine is so iconic, but X does make a lot of sense here. If everyone else voted for Prof. X, I'd go with it.

And also, thoughts on the name? Origins vs. First Class? I'm OK with either, honestly.
Yeah, either sounds fine to me. Not my biggest concern.

[GreyOwl]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Swarm of the Marro". The scenarios are all about fighting against the Marro, but the name is still generic enough. Something like that.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but we have such a diverse set - Brotherhood of Mutants (from various incarnations), the First Class of Xavier, Sentinels, angry mobs of people ... Juggernaut ... it's not really one core enemy, which makes me want to focus on the X-Men themselves.
Also, I feel like "World's Finest" and "Brave and the Bold" set a bit of a precedent for the set names to be more built around the heroes than the villains. Not to say we can never veer from precedents, of course.

[GreyOwl]

I'm okay with that, too, I'm just throwing out ideas. Out of the previous ideas, I like Origins the best, mainly because it's the first X-Men themed set.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, I should note, for those who haven't seen it, a vote is up in the voting thread, and it's one that requires unanimous support to pass, so please vote your yeas or nays.

[Balantai]

I have another reason to exclude Wolverine from this Master Set. It will build a great deal of excitement for our first X-Men wave.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Cyclops -1, 3, or 6
Jean Grey - (assuming we go with the Jean to Phoenix idea) 4 to 6, OR 1 to 5
Beast - I really like this one http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/BeastUltimateVeteran.jpg
Iceman - 2
Angel - 1 switching to 3, However if we go with the Ultimate versions of the X-men costumes 2 matches better.
Magneto - 1
Mystique - 1
Toad - 2
Pyro - 1
Juggernaut - 1 (because I have it, but 2 is really better.)
Sentinels (common squad or common heroes) 2
Civilians (common squad) 1, 3, 4, and either 5 or 2 (I think heroes need a four member squad.)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

What about X-Men: Mutants Arrive! ?

[Balantai]

We need to keep cost in mind. Can we get a price breakdown next to the characters from Strikezoneonline?

[GreyOwl]

What about X-Men: Mutants Arrive! ?

I like that, too. Or "Arrival of the Mutants". Or even "X-Men: Mutation".

[IAmBatman]

X-Men: Mutation sounds like a future set - kind of along the same lines as X-Men: Evolution would.
How about ... X-Men: The Mutant Threat (?)
(I still think I like "First Class" or "Origins" since this is the first set - kind of like the Marvel Master set is "The Conflict Begins").

[Spidey'tilIDie]

What about X-Men: Rise of the Mutants?

Also, I think we should have a clause on the squad that if we can't think of an appropriate squad to include, we can consider a Unique or Common Hero.

[GreyOwl]

I like that the best so far, "Rise of the Mutants".

[IAmBatman]

Agreed. Rise of the Mutants is exactly what I was trying to express before but couldn't find the words to with Mutant Threat. Pure gold. We can vote on that to finalize after the current vote is done.
And I'll update the template suggestion in the first post to allow for wiggle room for unique heroes to be subbed in for squads when appropriate.

[whitestuff]

Rise of the Mutants sounds like a winner to me as well.

[Hahma]

Rise of the Mutants is perfect.

[IAmBatman]

For Cyclops, I like them in this order: #1, #4, #6, #3, #5, and #2. Honestly, though, after the first three on that list, I just don't like them much at all.

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops4.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops6.jpg

For Beast, I think I like #2 if the Blue Skin variant looks good the most, then #3, then #5, then #1 which would be higher except I'm not loving all that junk he's on. Then there's #4, which is Beast without blue skin, which is no good in my book.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast4.jpg
This one comes with blue skin :up:
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Beast1.jpg

For Angel, I'd prefer we do just regular Angel for this set and leave an Archangel figure for a later set or wave. I like #1 the best, then #2, then #3.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Angel1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Angel2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Archangel1.jpg

Griffin has a cool idea for Jean Grey he talked to me about that could involve us using both a Jean Grey and a Phoenix figure (one transforms into the other), so I think that #5 would be included under that, but for Jean Grey herself, here's the order of my preferences. #4, #3, #2, #5, #1
Jean has 5 options plus Phoenix.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean6.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean4.jpg
For Iceman, I'm thinking #1 would be the easiest to rebase, so that's my top choice. After that, I'd go with #3, and then #2.

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman1.jpg
Lots of pretty good options for the Prof here. I think I like #4 the best, then #1, then #2, then #3.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX4.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX1.jpg

I say no to Magneto as Zorn for this set. For the Magneto figures themselves, I like #1 best, then #2, then #3. But, honestly, I think #1 is by far the best choice.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto3.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Magneto4.jpg
All of those options for Mystique and Juggernaut look pretty good to me, but I prefer #1 for Mystique and #2 for Juggernaut.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Mystique1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Mystique2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Juggernaut2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Juggernaut1.jpg
I'm fine with that figure for pyro.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Pyro.jpg
The big Sentinel ones cost about $30 each, on a good day. I could see maybe doing a unique hero Master Mold out of one of those eventually, but for a common squad of Sentinels, I think we need to go with the smaller ones.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Sentinel.jpg
and smaller human sized ones.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/SentinelTrooper.jpg

Man is that Toad figure ugly! What does anyone else think of using that Wildman of Borneo figure? Does it look enough like Toad to work?
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Toad1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Toad2.jpg

I'd like to save #1 there for a future criminal squad. I like #2, #3, and #5 as a squad. #4 is looking a little too violent in action for me.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian3.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilian5.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Civilians4.jpg

Multiple Man looks good, but I hope we save him for the wave.
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/MultipleMan.jpg

[IAmBatman]

Based on top choices of Spidey, Necro, and I, here's how it's looking for figures thus far - first one to 5 top choices gets voted on:

Cyclops (people liked a lot of these equally, but 1 seems most popular)
1 x 4
3
4
6 x 2

Iceman (No agreement here yet)
1
2 x 2
3

Jean Grey
4 x 4
1

Beast
1
2 (should be noted, this would be the blue variation - though I can't seem to find anywhere that sells the blue variation ...)
3 x 2

Angel (Not a lot of agreement here yet either)
2 x 2
3
either

Magneto (1 seems popular)
1 x 4

Mystique (again, 1 seems popular)
1 x 4

Toad (Necro didn't comment on this one)
1 x 2
2

Juggernaut (1 seems popular because people seem to have it - I think this might be a Green Arrow situation, though, where we should just bite the bullet and buy the nicer looking one if it's affordable)
1 x 2
2 x 2

Sentinels (Necro didn't comment on this one - small ones are favored thus far)
2 x 3

Civilians (This is a mishmash - we seem to agree that 3/4 figures are needed)
1
2 x 3
3 x 3
4
5 x 2

Professor X (4 seems popular so far)
4 x 4

I'll try looking up some prices tonight while I'm bored and feeling productive.

[IAmBatman]

In other news, trusting there will be no objections, I've added the dauntless A3n to our list of guild sidekicks.

[GreyOwl]

He wasn't already one?! No objections here. :)

[IAmBatman]

I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts on figures (though they may change once I dig up some price estimates).

[NecroBlade]

I'm pretty sure I vote #4 on Professor X.

[IAmBatman]

Here's a partial list of figure costs - I'll update it as I go.

Cyclops
1 $0.75
2 $0.75
3 $0.36
4 $1.12
5 $1.50
6 $0.55
Jean Grey
1 $0.41
2 $0.50
3 couldn’t find it
4 $0.85
5 $1.38
6 couldn’t find it
Beast
1 couldn’t find it
2 couldn’t find it in blue
3 $0.40
4 $0.31
5 $0.79
Iceman
1 $0.66
2 $1.34
3 $2.92
Angel
1 $7.57
2 $1.49
3 $6.17
Prof X
1 $4.00
2 $0.63
3 $1.38
4 $2.38
Magneto
1 $2.51
2 $13.21
3 $14.65
Mystique
1 $0.50
2 $5.24
Toad
1 $0.42
2 $0.30
Juggernaut
1 $0.30
2 $1.00
Sentinels
1 I actually found this as low as $14.99
2 $0.75
Pyro
1 $0.50
Civilians
1 $0.29
2 $1.00
3 couldn’t find it
4 couldn’t find it
5 $0.28


(I think I'll be changing my Angel vote to #2 ... And looking closer at the Wildman, I really don't think he works, so I'll be voting for ugly suit Toad).

[IAmBatman]

OK, that cost list is as complete as I can get it for tonight. If anyone can help me fill in the gaps (Spidey, especially with the civilians, I think you can help, since I'm not even sure what some of those figures are called) that would be great.
By and large these figures are pretty affordable. There are only a few (Magneto, Angel, and Mystique come to mind) where I think cost could really encourage us to choose one over the others.

[Matt Helm]

For the name, what about:

X-Men: Mutant Academy

[IAmBatman]

We're one vote away from Rise of the Mutants getting the go ahead, but it could still be voted down. :-)

[Hahma]

Cyclops 1 or 6 is fine (1 is kind of him losing his mind and blasting something, or constipated. 6 is classic pose touching his visor to select right beam, but newer uniform. )

Beast 3 based on availability vs. looks so far.

Angel 2

Jean Grey 4

Iceman 2 (I don't mind re-basing with ice, Silver Surfer isn't flat on a base)

Prof. X 4

Magneto 1

Mystique 1

Pyro 1

Small Sentinel Trooper

Toad 1 ( but still don't like it)

Juggernaut 2

Civilians 2 and 3 (don't know if I want kid's in squads that we are trying to destroy)

[IAmBatman]

Thanks Hahma! I updated my count. We're closing in on a few that would be ready to be passed in an official vote (I'm waiting until they have 5 people who've been in favor of them, and quite a few are up 4-0 on the competition).
As for civilians and trying to kill them - I figure most of the scenarios would actually more be based around the heroes trying to save them! (Even if the civilians don't exactly make it easy on them ...).

[Hahma]

Thanks Hahma! I updated my count. We're closing in on a few that would be ready to be passed in an official vote (I'm waiting until they have 5 people who've been in favor of them, and quite a few are up 4-0 on the competition).
As for civilians and trying to kill them - I figure most of the scenarios would actually more be based around the heroes trying to save them! (Even if the civilians don't exactly make it easy on them ...).

Maybe that can work then. I had some thoughts on hostage glyph before, maybe more of a hostage scenario can work. Or have X amount of rounds for Heroes to keep Villains from getting adjacent to Civilians.

[IAmBatman]

I'm thinking that a city map with a Sentinel and human rioter based scenario where the good guys have to keep themselves and the civilians safe from the Sentinels while the civilians riot and try to hurt them for being mutants. (The Sentinels, in this scenario, would of course have their programming a bit scrambled).

[Spidey'tilIDie]

FYI, the Blue version of ultimate Beast has very few pics online because the pre-production version of pics are used. Wizkids kept it hush-hush that Vet Ultimate Beast would be blue, so very few have updated their pics. If you order a Veteran Beast from the Ultimates Marvel set, he will be blue (baring someone rebasing so their experienced or Rookie ones can be blue.)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

(I think I'll be changing my Angel vote to #2 ... And looking closer at the Wildman, I really don't think he works, so I'll be voting for ugly suit Toad).

Bats,
First, what site did you find these on? (Don't wanna duplicate work.)
Second, I like Angel #2 as well, especially if he morphs into Archangel as the poses are similar. And on that, they are really the same character (Warren Worthington III) and Marvel has changed things so he is both and offered us the chance to go 2-for-1, so I feel we should jump on it.
Third, I agree Wildman doesn't look like that Toad, but don't you think he looks like a Toad ? (Who has more different artistic interpretations than any other one of the more popular characters, hero or villain.)

[IAmBatman]

www.strikezoneonline.com and www.miniaturemarket.com were my sources for price estimates on these figures.
For Toad, I don't have much experience with X-Men comics, so I must not have seen the version of him that looks like the Wildman. That Wildman figure looks more like a "wolfman" almost to me, though.
I wouldn't mind seeing us use the Archangel figure for a later set or wave where we did "Age of Apocalypse" type characters with Apocalypse and Mister Sinister among others involved.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well, Archangel is actually not from Age of Apocalypse, he is in continuity and just as Wolverine and Gambit have been made into Horsemen, so was Angel. However, his circumstances were different. He had his wings amputated after they were burned in a fire. He was kidnapped by Apocalypse and he gave him the metal ones to replace the old ones. Then he at one point (while dating Psylocke) ingested a formula which could bring the dead back to life and save a person from near death. It, as a side effect returned his normal wings to him and eventually his normal skin. Recently, when attacked by Bastion for his wings (Bastion wished to clone them and give them to his "angels") he manifested the ability to change into Archangel. Since then, he has served as a member of X-Force, the really BA special ops arm of the X-Men. It features Angel/Archangel, Wolverine, X-23, Domino, Warpath, Wolfsbane, Vanisher, and Elixir (who, through healing people of Wither's death touch, can now kill or heal with a touch.)

[IAmBatman]

Either way, I hope we do an Archangel when we do an Apocalypse. For this set, I think we should go with Angel, though.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

My point is that they aren't really different characters. To me its like doing a Spider-Man card and a Peter Parker card.

[IAmBatman]

Ah - well to me it's more like doing normal Spider-man and symbiote suit Spider-man. There's a completely different look and different powers involved - at least in the more classical, iconic versions.

[IAmBatman]

Responding to the discussion going on in the Voting thread over here:

Yes, I do see boosters as 5 heroes each. I think that's the standard approach of hero packs in official scape. We also know that Marvel Wave 1 was slated as two 5 Hero packs.
GreyOwl, I like squads too, but I don't think catching up with official Heroscape in terms of squads should be a goal. I mean it's still Heroscape, and, if anything, I think squads are over emphasized in Valhalla. I think SuperHeroscape should still be hero first and I have no problem with the numbers of heroes we do far outweighing the numbers of squads.
Not to mention I think our audience (and we as designers) are probably far more interested in unique heroes than squads as a general rule.
A steady, complementary supply of squads to go along with a bunch of heroes is a nice approach, IMO.

[NecroBlade]

:word:

[IAmBatman]

Oh, and it's also worth mentioning that since we're paying for figures per figure, having hero heavy releases is a lot friendly to our wallets. :-P
I hope we consider making a few of our squads unique for just that reason ...

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Ah - well to me it's more like doing normal Spider-man and symbiote suit Spider-man. There's a completely different look and different powers involved - at least in the more classical, iconic versions.
Okay that is a better analogy, but to me it is more like, Original Spidey and Black suit Spidey. Same guy, even in the same issue. I guess I think of this as a secondary mutation, kinda like Iceman being able to heal himself, Emma becoming Diamond, and Beast becoming catlike.

[IAmBatman]

I guess to me the two versions of Angel/Archangel are iconic enough not to just have gotten different character names, but to be worth different cards. Though I suppose the only real difference for Archangel to me would be a ranged (special?) attack and more of an offensive design.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Responding to the discussion going on in the Voting thread over here:

Yes, I do see boosters as 5 heroes each. I think that's the standard approach of hero packs in official scape. We also know that Marvel Wave 1 was slated as two 5 Hero packs.
GreyOwl, I like squads too, but I don't think catching up with official Heroscape in terms of squads should be a goal. I mean it's still Heroscape, and, if anything, I think squads are over emphasized in Valhalla. I think SuperHeroscape should still be hero first and I have no problem with the numbers of heroes we do far outweighing the numbers of squads.
Not to mention I think our audience (and we as designers) are probably far more interested in unique heroes than squads as a general rule.
A steady, complementary supply of squads to go along with a bunch of heroes is a nice approach, IMO.

All Excellent Points, I guess I was just getting greedy! I had no idea about Marvel being released in sets of 5. I was just thinking most sets came with 6 figs. (including some Hero packs) I was hoping to go with the highside.

P.S. Is my proposal considered a vote, or do I need to officially weigh in?

[IAmBatman]

It's usually understood to be a vote in favor of the proposal unless otherwise specified. If you're not in favor of your own proposal, you can certainly vote against it (or choose to withdraw it), but if you're in favor of your proposal, then the proposal itself should be enough.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I guess to me the two versions of Angel/Archangel are iconic enough not to just have gotten different character names, but to be worth different cards. Though I suppose the only real difference for Archangel to me would be a ranged (special?) attack and more of an offensive design.

A year ago, I would have completely agreed with you. But in the last year, his changing from Feathers to Steel has been spotlighted in the pages of X-Force, first when Wolfsbane was pre-programmed to attack him and then when, in the course of trying to save Cable and Hope from Bishop, X-Force went to the future and Warren was confronted by an ailing Apocalypse.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

And its not like it is just in X-Force either. He appeared in X-men: Dark Reign, Astonishing X-Men, and other X-Men titles in the same manor. So Marvel is making a concerted effort to portray him as both Angel/Archangel.

From Wikipedia:
X-Force attacks Archangel, who eventually asks for relief from the pain of losing his wings and transforming into Archangel.[19] (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/#cite_note-18) However, at the last minute, Archangel escapes into the night, intent on taking vengeance against the Purifiers. Warren arrives at the Purifiers' headquarters and slaughters most of them in a blood-maddened rage. However, once the battle is over, he reverts back to his normal Caucasian, feather-winged appearance. He comments to Logan that he can still feel the metal wings inside him however, and that they want to come out again. According to Elixir, Warren's transformation is permanent, implying that he is fully capable of transforming back into Archangel again at any time.[20] (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/#cite_note-19)
Since then, Angel has taken dual membership with both the X-Men and X-Force, though Cyclops forbids Angel from telling the rest of the team about the return of his Archangel powers.

[IAmBatman]

How many members of our fan base know the recent history of that character that well, though?

[Hahma]

Responding to the discussion going on in the Voting thread over here:

Yes, I do see boosters as 5 heroes each. I think that's the standard approach of hero packs in official scape. We also know that Marvel Wave 1 was slated as two 5 Hero packs.
GreyOwl, I like squads too, but I don't think catching up with official Heroscape in terms of squads should be a goal. I mean it's still Heroscape, and, if anything, I think squads are over emphasized in Valhalla. I think SuperHeroscape should still be hero first and I have no problem with the numbers of heroes we do far outweighing the numbers of squads.
Not to mention I think our audience (and we as designers) are probably far more interested in unique heroes than squads as a general rule.
A steady, complementary supply of squads to go along with a bunch of heroes is a nice approach, IMO.

5 Heroes + 1 Squad - Good guys
5 Heroes + 1 Squad - Bad guys

More units/wave = longer time between releases. I thought the idea was to get more units out there after the master sets. I know there's a ton of characters we want to get out there, but the bigger the list, the longer it will take for any of them to get out.

Regarding squads, I personally don't want to follow the formula or ratio that Classic HS used. I would prefer heavier in heroes than squads because down the road when you can do scenarios with X amount of points/team with C3G units, I wouldn't want it to be where a ton of squads are drafted/built with a couple heroes. Then like Classic HS, there will be a ton of Unique Heroes that don't get played because they don't fit in with the Squad heavy army build.


I guess to me the two versions of Angel/Archangel are iconic enough not to just have gotten different character names, but to be worth different cards. Though I suppose the only real difference for Archangel to me would be a ranged (special?) attack and more of an offensive design.

A year ago, I would have completely agreed with you. But in the last year, his changing from Feathers to Steel has been spotlighted in the pages of X-Force, first when Wolfsbane was pre-programmed to attack him and then when, in the course of trying to save Cable and Hope from Bishop, X-Force went to the future and Warren was confronted by an ailing Apocalypse.

Angel has been around since the beginning of X-Men. Whatever they are doing over the last year or few years is such a small percentage of his lifespan, it should not IMO be a big consideration for the C3G Angel. To me, pre-Apocalypse Angel is classic.

And its not like it is just in X-Force either. He appeared in X-men: Dark Reign, Astonishing X-Men, and other X-Men titles in the same manor. So Marvel is making a concerted effort to portray him as both Angel/Archangel.

From Wikipedia:
X-Force attacks Archangel, who eventually asks for relief from the pain of losing his wings and transforming into Archangel.[19] (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/#cite_note-18) However, at the last minute, Archangel escapes into the night, intent on taking vengeance against the Purifiers. Warren arrives at the Purifiers' headquarters and slaughters most of them in a blood-maddened rage. However, once the battle is over, he reverts back to his normal Caucasian, feather-winged appearance. He comments to Logan that he can still feel the metal wings inside him however, and that they want to come out again. According to Elixir, Warren's transformation is permanent, implying that he is fully capable of transforming back into Archangel again at any time.[20] (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/#cite_note-19)
Since then, Angel has taken dual membership with both the X-Men and X-Force, though Cyclops forbids Angel from telling the rest of the team about the return of his Archangel powers.

How many members of our fan base know the recent history of that character that well, though?


I have no idea what's going on with this recent history. On another note, I played some Scape (both Classic and Marvel/C3G) today at Felindar's house (thanks again Pete :D) and there were some guys there that were in their late 30's (I'm 42) that were talking about the old comics. Felindar was the only one that knew what the heck was going on recently with all the different story lines and we others just kind of shook our heads. We (me for sure) liked the older stuff and have no idea what's going on now.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I'm thinking Silver Age to early 90s is about the period we're working with for the most part when we say "iconic." Most stuff has been updated in important ways since the Golden Age, but I bet if you asked people around here who their favorite versions of Green Lantern and Flash were you'd get a lot more "Hal Jordan" and "Barry Allen" answers than any of their counterparts (said as a guy who prefers Wally West, btw - of course Wally really came on the scene in the early 90s, so I guess he's not really an exception to my main point).
You make a good point about reasons to keep the waves small. I guess the greedy side of me wanted to see us get out a whole 15 JLA themed figures in the Brave and the Bold set, but more figures might be the better idea.
How about 5 heroes + 1 squad (heroes) and 5 heroes + 1 squad (villains) + 1 promo (wildcard)?

[Hahma]

Yeah, I'm thinking Silver Age to early 90s is about the period we're working with for the most part when we say "iconic." Most stuff has been updated in important ways since the Golden Age, but I bet if you asked people around here who their favorite versions of Green Lantern and Flash were you'd get a lot more "Hal Jordan" and "Barry Allen" answers than any of their counterparts (said as a guy who prefers Wally West, btw - of course Wally really came on the scene in the early 90s, so I guess he's not really an exception to my main point).
You make a good point about reasons to keep the waves small. I guess the greedy side of me wanted to see us get out a whole 15 JLA themed figures in the Brave and the Bold set, but more figures might be the better idea.
How about 5 heroes + 1 squad (heroes) and 5 heroes + 1 squad (villains) + 1 promo (wildcard)?

I'm Silver Age - early 90's all the way.

Wally West for me because I didn't read much DC in 80's except Batman and The Question, so I really only know the animated series' version of Flash and I think he's pretty cool.

If you want to go to 15 for Waves, that's fine I guess, but it's going to take longer to get done and not rushed. Otherwise the promo thing would work fine too. Either way, as long as they're not expected to be done in the same amount of time.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well, I would counter that argument by saying the figures were "done" months ago with playtesting, it is the scenarios and maps that have held us up. The beauty of waves is we don't have to include glyphs, maps, or scenarios. So, we can get right down to the most exciting part, the new characters/cards! I can get on board with Heroes in 5's, but can we agree to do three heroes if we replace a squad? And stick to the four themed packs for Waves?

[IAmBatman]

Scenarios, Theme tests, and Glyphs, actually.
That and how long it took to eek out some of the third tests on some of the figures. With three committed playtesters able to concentrate on just playtests and a trimmed down Theme testing phase, I do think the playtesting segment should be quicker in general, even with additional figures to playtest.
This is especially true if we begin playtesting while more figures are still in the design phase.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well, I am slowly beginning to acquire more Originalscape, so I am hoping to join Bats in the ability to soloscape playtests in the future.

[Hahma]

Yeah, waves should go faster without all the other stuff.

And Spidey, the more the merrier for playtesting. That will help get more units out that everyone wants faster too.

[Hahma]

Well, I would counter that argument by saying the figures were "done" months ago with playtesting, it is the scenarios and maps that have held us up. The beauty of waves is we don't have to include glyphs, maps, or scenarios. So, we can get right down to the most exciting part, the new characters/cards! I can get on board with Heroes in 5's, but can we agree to do three heroes if we replace a squad? And stick to the four themed packs for Waves?

While some tests were done months ago, others were only finished not too long ago. Individual tests were first, but then the groups of units had to go against other groups of units, official and C3G. Then all C3G Villains vs. Marvel Heroes and then Villains, then C3G Heroes vs Marvel Heroes and then Villains. Those weren't map/scenario related and only recently got finished. Final discussions on Two-Face's final cost were relatively recent.

If I recall correctly, the individual tests took about a week apiece on average, at least for me they did. So even without scenarios etc, they still take a while and that's not including Intra-Set testing.

Believe me, I'm anxious to get more units out there too :) But just because we're on the home stretch of the first set, I just need to remind everyone that even without the Master Set additions, we just can't whip these puppies out like nothing, there's still a lot to go into them. We'll get there though :D

Scenarios, Theme tests, and Glyphs, actually.
That and how long it took to eek out some of the third tests on some of the figures. With three committed playtesters able to concentrate on just playtests and a trimmed down Theme testing phase, I do think the playtesting segment should be quicker in general, even with additional figures to playtest.
This is especially true if we begin playtesting while more figures are still in the design phase.


With the playtests trimmed down reasonably and testing while others are in development phase, this should speed things up. Also, other things can be done during development phase as well such as scenarios/maps (for next Master Set), pictures of official figures taken, and whatever else can be done earlier now during unit development. That will help move things along as well. :D

[GreyOwl]

So what are we thinking in terms of timing for the booster waves? It would make sense to get booster waves before the next master set, right? Two master sets in a row with nothing else in between gives people less time to absorb the first master set, play it, and comment/critique it. It also seems less "official". I think it might be beneficial to give it that time so we can make the 2nd master set better through the feedback from the first one.

[Balantai]

Keep in mind, for many people, the most iconic versions of these characters is going to be from pop culture. That means specifically the X-Men / Wolverine movies and the currrent cartoon.

[Balantai]

I'm lost with the current proposal and the Wave talks. Can someone summorize, please?

[IAmBatman]

The current proposal is about setting the stage for our waves.
We already voted on the order we're doing the next few sets (X-Men Masterset, Brave and the Bold Wave, X-Men Wave, Avengers Wave, Indie set), so it'd take a unanimous vote to go straight to a wave right now.
I don't mind going for a third Master set right off, as we'll be hitting waves pretty hard after this.

[GreyOwl]

Ah, I thought we had only voted on the order of the master sets, not the order between waves and master sets. But if that's the case, then so be it. So I guess that rules out the vehicles expansion set, too, right?

[IAmBatman]

I think a vehicles expansion, which wouldn't include any figures, could be done under the template of the Rules Additions team concurrently with another set. It's just require the Rules Additions team to be willing to do enough playtesting.

[GreyOwl]

So who makes up this secretive "Rules Additions Team", and how do I go about bribing them? ;)

[IAmBatman]

I think it's a volunteer basis thing thus far, and based on who's posted over in that thread thus far I'd say it's made up of you, Necroblade, Balantai, and I.

[Balantai]

I would love to see the Vehicle Rules released with a Gotham City Master Set. I could see it now...Robin, Batgirl, Nightwing, Penguin, Riddler, Mr. Freeze, etc., etc., etc. Plus the release of the Batmobile, armored cars, getaway cars. :twisted:

[Hahma]

You make a good point about reasons to keep the waves small. I guess the greedy side of me wanted to see us get out a whole 15 JLA themed figures in the Brave and the Bold set, but more figures might be the better idea.
How about 5 heroes + 1 squad (heroes) and 5 heroes + 1 squad (villains) + 1 promo (wildcard)?

Getting back to this, as last night I was kind of tired when addressing this.

I noticed on the proposal thread that Griffin didn't want to get boxed into a certain template for wave releases. It would kind of perhaps restrict or handcuff some otherwise cool wave concepts I suppose.

I had mentioned the 5/1 thing more in response to Spidey's proposal for like 16 heroes and 2 squads. I was more or less trying to get that number reduced to a workable one that could get done in the 4 month time period that Bats had wanted.

If Bats wants to do a 15 JLA themed set, that's not unreasonable as long as the completion time is realistic. Perhaps since it will be a while between wave releases, it might not be terrible to take a couple more weeks to get a set done because they won't be gotten back to for a quite a while.

Likewise, if a few less heroes need to go into a set to add necessary squads for the same reasons listed above, then that might be an option to leave open as well.

[IAmBatman]

True. I think we should probably worry less about locking in a template through posting. I was more putting it in this thread as a guideline - not as an end all, be all.

[ellak96]

My Figure choices for sculpts
Cyclops:2
Beast:5
Archangel:3
Jean:4
Iceman:1
Prof x:4
Magneto:1
Mystique:1
Juggernaut:2
Pyro:1
Sentinels:2
Toad:1
Rioters:1

[IAmBatman]

Keep the figure choices coming, guys, so that we can put up some votes on these!

[Balantai]

Cyclops: 1 or 6
Beast: 3
Angel: 2 (it's the only affordable piece)
Jean: 4
Iceman: 1
Prof X: 2
Magneto: 1
Mystique: 1
Juggernaut: 1
Pyro: 1
Toad: 1 (the other figure isn't really Toad)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I would like to suggest for the X-Men members we go with Ultimate Cyclops, Jean, and Veteran Beast (he is blue). Multiple sites have them all for less than a dollar.
They would match closer to the cartoon and movie of which people are familiar. Then for sake of unity of uniform, Angel 2 (who is actually called Archangel even though he doesn't have metal wings, go figure) who is the least expensive of these three minis, and the third Iceman, (although I have the second) for ease of rebasing and content of iceslide. Although he is not the cheapest, he looks like the iconic Iceman whether you are familiar with him from Spiderman and his Amazing Friends or reading X-Men as a kid or one of the various cartoons.

Brotherhood members are pretty easy with Magneto being mostly, if not all, choice 1, Mystique being all choice 1, Pyro and Toad only having one choice really, and Juggernaut having more votes for choice 1 than 2, although I have to agree with Bats, choice 2 looks better.

Finally, the Squads. With price and issue, it looks like smaller Sentinels is realy our only option. Then to civilian rioters, where I think we need to clear up the concept. Do they need to be more like mutant-haters? More paniccing civilians? Or usable as either? I personally like a squad of four, since they will essentially have no powers. So, choice 2, 3, 4, with one doubled up; or add 5. Leave option 1 for a Lackey or Henchman or something.

[GreyOwl]

A little late to the party, but here are my votes:

Cyclops - 4
Beast - 3
Angel - 1
Jean Grey - 4
Iceman - 2
Professor X - 4
Magneto - 1
Mystique - 1
Juggernaut - 2
Pyro - 1
Sentinel - 1 (the big one)
Toad - 1
Civilians - a like a mix of those

[GreyOwl]

I know cost is a consideration, but it would be a shame not to have large Sentinels. Their size is part of what makes them cool.

[IAmBatman]

I wouldn't mind doing a two figure unique Sentinel squad at some point ... even for that, though, it's $30 + tax + shipping! :shock:

[GreyOwl]

The $15 pack does include 2 other figures with it (and a HeroClix map, if that interests anyone). There's "Colonel Logan" (Wolverine without the costume) and Rachel Summers as Hound.

[IAmBatman]

OK, here's an updated count of figure preferences, sans commentary.

Cyclops
1 x 5
2
3
4 x 2
6 x 3

Iceman
1 x 3
2 x 3
3

Jean Grey
4 x 7
1

Beast
1
2 (should be noted, this would be the blue variation - though I can't seem to find anywhere that sells the blue variation ...)
3 x 4
5

Angel
1
2 x 3
3 x 2
either

Magneto
1 x 7

Mystique
1 x 7

Toad
1 x 5
2

Juggernaut
1 x 3
2 x 4

Sentinels
1
2 x 4

Civilians
1 x 2
2 x 3
3 x 3
4
5 x 2

Professor X
4 x 6
2 x 1

[IAmBatman]

The $15 pack does include 2 other figures with it (and a HeroClix map, if that interests anyone). There's "Colonel Logan" (Wolverine without the costume) and Rachel Summers as Hound.

The $15 price I found was for a loose figure. For that entire pack, you're looking at $30.

[GreyOwl]

I've purchased 3 of the entire packs for under $20 each, probably close to about $16. Found them on eBay at separate times.

[IAmBatman]

Fair enough. But this is a crowd that I think doesn't like the idea of paying $6 for an Angel figure. Which makes sense considering how much we already spend on this game and how many figures we all want ...
I think a good option might be to do a future "large figure expansion" in which we put some of those figures normally out of the C3G price range in for "elite users." (i.e. the ones willing to spend the dough).

[GreyOwl]

Could we just do a card for both small and big versions? The same powers, just different pictures and size/height?

Or are the small ones actually different Sentinels?

[IAmBatman]

I believe they're actually different sentinels. Sentinels do come in different varieties, after all ...

[GreyOwl]

Yeah, I just thought all the varieties were big. But I guess not.

[Balantai]

Could we just do a card for both small and big versions? The same powers, just different pictures and size/height?

Or are the small ones actually different Sentinels?

I can't actually find any reference to human sized sentinels. We might need Spidey. :D

[IAmBatman]

Here's what Wikipedia has to say: "Invented by Dr. Bolivar Trask, the Sentinels are programmed to hunt and capture or kill mutants. Several types of Sentinels have appeared through the years, manufactured by various private and paramilitary groups, but the typical Sentinel is three-stories tall, possesses the ability to fly, project energy blasts and detect mutants."
I think we actually have a bit of a conundrum with our guiding principles here. On one hand we want to use figures considered affordable and accessible. On the other hand we want to do the most iconic versions of characters possible - and Sentinels are definitely more iconic in their huge variety.
(It should be noted that going with the huge sculpt is going to bring in other issues beyond monetary ones, though, such as rebasing, and movement rules for a figure that large).

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yeah, they would be extremely tough to rebase. There feet are realtively close though so a double scape base should do the trick. However, they are anchored to a clix base by a notched, glued roundish peg that is smooth and straight on three sides and slanted on the other. I like the idea of doing them in a large fig expansion. Mostly because we would then be able to wait and see if NECA re-releases the sentinel Mark III or IV.

[GreyOwl]

I've rebased one on a standard double space base. It fits fine.

[IAmBatman]

It fits fine and doesn't tip over and can be moved with ease using just the normal double spaced figure movement rules?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

The small Sentinels are called Prime Sentinels or Human Sentinels. They were formerly handicapped people who Bastion installed Sentinel Tech in, in order that they might not be handicapped anymore. However, when given the activation command by Bastion, they lost their freewill and attacked mutants and turned into Human sized versions of the Sentinels we all know and love.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

It fits fine and doesn't tip over and can be moved with ease using just the normal double spaced figure movement rules?

Well since they tend to want to fall forward, if you just re-base them so that they can't fall forward, i.e. on the back part of the double with the empty other piece in front, it should work.

[IAmBatman]

What's anyone think of the idea of doing the large Sentinels in a two figure unique squad?

[Balantai]

What's anyone think of the idea of doing the large Sentinels in a two figure unique squad?

I really think the big Sentinel belongs as a common hero.

[Hahma]

What's anyone think of the idea of doing the large Sentinels in a two figure unique squad?

I really think the big Sentinel belongs as a common hero.

I really like this idea Balantai, for a couple reasons.

First of all it allows people to only have to fork out $15-$20 or whatever for one Sentinel to include in a battle if they want to, and allows them to expand their collection if they choose to and/or can afford it, but at least be able to get the fun of using at least one Sentinel for the time being. I don't know how big they are height-wise, but someone (like me) could maybe proxy Jotun for a Sentinel for the time being. Chances are for me anyway, I'm not going to spend $30-$40 on two Sentinels anytime soon, I'd rather use that money to get 50 smaller figures for future C3G sets.

Secondly, I kind of think of the big Sentinels as pretty badazz by themselves. If we're going big, I'd rather have them be higher point/powered Common Heroes than lower point (individually)/powered Uniques Squad of two.

If someone has the money and desire, they should be able to have 3,4 or 10 Sentinels in a battle. I'll stick with Jotun though, at least for awhile anyway. :D

[IAmBatman]

One one hand, I do kind of like the idea of people being able to use 1 or 20 Sentinels or whatever number in between.
On the other hand, I fear how many I'll buy as a result! :-P
So if we did it as a common hero, do you think that'd open it up for inclusion in this set? Or would it be better to do the smaller guys as a common squad in this set and try to sneak in a large figure expansion on the side somewhere?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well, I would argue a repaint of Mimring could be Fin Fang Foom, so other than him and Sentinel, who else did you have in mind?

[Hahma]

One one hand, I do kind of like the idea of people being able to use 1 or 20 Sentinels or whatever number in between.
On the other hand, I fear how many I'll buy as a result! :-P
So if we did it as a common hero, do you think that'd open it up for inclusion in this set? Or would it be better to do the smaller guys as a common squad in this set and try to sneak in a large figure expansion on the side somewhere?

Well, I would argue a repaint of Mimring could be Fin Fang Foom, so other than him and Sentinel, who else did you have in mind?

Perhaps Spidey is on to something with adding Fin Fang Foom to a large Sentinel for a large figure expansion. Maybe a 4-6 unit large figure expansion could be somehow done to give some large figure love to those that have them already or want to get them. I would suggest however that we don't restrict the set to either Marvel or DC, but pick a couple from each universe that would be the most iconic and playable. Keeping it to a limited figure count and including both universes would aid in being able to work this in somewhere. If it can't be kept down in size and include both universes, I don't know if I'd support a huge release of large figures, mainly because they would be mostly targeted for a few that would actually get to use them and detract from getting more desired and affordable units out there.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

And how big is "big" exactly? Are Yellowjacket, Atlas, Giant-Man, Atom-Smasher, Giganta, Chemo, Validus, Elasti-girl, and/or Colossal Boy big? Or are just Sentinel and Anti-Monitor big enough for this?

[Hahma]

And how big is "big" exactly? Are Yellowjacket, Atlas, Giant-Man, Atom-Smasher, Giganta, Chemo, Validus, Elasti-girl, and/or Colossal Boy big? Or are just Sentinel and Anti-Monitor big enough for this?

To me any of those you mentioned are considered big/large figures that might not make the cut for a regular wave or master set release. To make a small set more viable to fit in somehow, I would think that it should just be a unit release that wouldn't require anything special other than the cards. Though I'm still not spending $20 or $30 on any single figure.

Large figure expansions for HS were just a box of big figures. Easy.

ROTFF, Tundra, Lava, Castle sets were more terrain expansions and thus the extra rules and such.

[IAmBatman]

Here's the list I made a while back of figures I thought would fit well in a Marvel large figure expansion and a DC large figure expansion. Not saying we should do it this way, but it's food for thought:

Marvel
Goliath
Giganto
Giant Man
Master Mold
Dragon Man
Fin Fang Foom

DC
Starro
Spectre
Atom Smasher
Giganta
Anti Monitor
(Colossal Boy could safely be added).

I don't know enough about Chemo, Elasti-girl, Validus, or Atlas to comment.
Suffice to say, I think there are figures enough for two or three of these sets if we want to go there.
(And I didn't even include Sentinels themselves on this list).
If we did Sentinels as common heroes, though, inclusion in such a set with unique heroes would seem odd. I could almost see them done all by themselves as a solo large expansion, or turned into something like a unique squad of three as part of a large expansion.

[Hahma]

Here's the list I made a while back of figures I thought would fit well in a Marvel large figure expansion and a DC large figure expansion. Not saying we should do it this way, but it's food for thought:

Marvel
Goliath
Giganto
Giant Man
Master Mold
Dragon Man
Fin Fang Foom

DC
Starro
Spectre
Atom Smasher
Giganta
Anti Monitor
(Colossal Boy could safely be added).

I don't know enough about Chemo, Elasti-girl, Validus, or Atlas to comment.
Suffice to say, I think there are figures enough for two or three of these sets if we want to go there.
(And I didn't even include Sentinels themselves on this list).
If we did Sentinels as common heroes, though, inclusion in such a set with unique heroes would seem odd. I could almost see them done all by themselves as a solo large expansion, or turned into something like a unique squad of three as part of a large expansion.

True enough.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

FWIW, Chemo is the guy who destroyed Bludhaven, I believe he made at least one appearance in JLU; Elasti-girl is better known as Rita Farr, a member of Doom Patrol; Validus is one of the the Fatal Five, enemies of the Legion of Super-heroes; and Atlas is the Heroic alter-ego of the Original Thunderbolt Goliath, who gained his powers from stolen Pym Particles.

[IAmBatman]

I think I actually know Chemo better from the pages of Flash ... (or maybe I'm confusing him with someone else). I more just don't know anything about his figure/character size, really.

Edit: And would Elasti-Girl be any bigger than other superstretchers like Mr. Fantastic, Plastic Man, and Elongated Man?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Chemo is a giant green mass of chemicals. My only old comic containing him is an issue of Action Comics with Superman featuring the Metal Men. So as far as I know, that is who he fights. At least until Villains Unite and they used him to destroy Bludhaven.

[IAmBatman]

Gotcha.
In other news (this one is my fault, but) stop hijacking the voting thread! :-P We should talk about Juggernaut and why Matt Helm is absolutely right and you should all change your votes to yea over here. :-D

[Matt Helm]

On the figures, am I the only guy who thinks that the last Cyclops looks the most "Heroscape-Quality"? I mean, if you love him with his hair showing (I was always a full hood guy), the last one looks good to me.

Likewise on Jean, I could live with the proposed one simply because it is acceptable (my son picked that one out because the Phoenix one is just ridiculous to afford for a plastic figure). But don't hate me for saying this... how much is the X-Factor version? That one seams more Jean Grey to me. The proposed figure could be anyone when glanced at casually.

And I've already made my statement on Juggy.

[NecroBlade]

Sorry Bats and Mackerel Head, I'm sticking with my vote. I like the way my piece looks and don't find the other significantly better.

[EternalThanos86]

Just a quick check, what is the size of the Heroclix version(s) of Apocalypse? In the cartoons he was significantly larger than most mutants. I thought of both him and the Blob would fit nice and tight into a large figure expansion.

[Hahma]

Just a quick check, what is the size of the Heroclix version(s) of Apocalypse? In the cartoons he was significantly larger than most mutants. I thought of both him and the Blob would fit nice and tight into a large figure expansion.

I don't have the Apocolypse figure, but I do have the Blob and he's not really that big really. For the large expansion, I think we're going for more obscure and much bigger than the regular figures, as the Blob isn't really that much bigger than Juggernaut or Hulk by comparison. Check that, I just went to the basement and checked them out and Hulk is bigger than both Juggs and Blob.

[Hahma]

On the figures, am I the only guy who thinks that the last Cyclops looks the most "Heroscape-Quality"? I mean, if you love him with his hair showing (I was always a full hood guy), the last one looks good to me.

Likewise on Jean, I could live with the proposed one simply because it is acceptable (my son picked that one out because the Phoenix one is just ridiculous to afford for a plastic figure). But don't hate me for saying this... how much is the X-Factor version? That one seams more Jean Grey to me. The proposed figure could be anyone when glanced at casually.

And I've already made my statement on Juggy.

I've got the last Cyclops and he's pretty cool adjusting his visor.

The X-Factor version would have been cool if she was in the green and yellow X-Factor costume, though a little paint and viola'

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... now I kinda wish I'd proposed the last Cyclops.

[Hahma]

:shrug:

[whitestuff]

I really think the big Sentinel belongs as a common hero.
Whoa, déjà vu.

I think this has been discussed before... Greyowl?

[IAmBatman]

I was there, I remember, and I swear to God if someone says something about an "uncommon hero ..." :-P

[GreyOwl]

I was there, I remember, and I swear to God if someone says something about an "uncommon hero ..." :-P

The TNT Sentinel is a "standard hero". Which is basically a common hero with greater than 1 Life.

[GreyOwl]

Here's the list I made a while back of figures I thought would fit well in a Marvel large figure expansion and a DC large figure expansion. Not saying we should do it this way, but it's food for thought:

Marvel
Goliath
Giganto
Giant Man
Master Mold
Dragon Man
Fin Fang Foom

DC
Starro
Spectre
Atom Smasher
Giganta
Anti Monitor
(Colossal Boy could safely be added).

I don't know enough about Chemo, Elasti-girl, Validus, or Atlas to comment.
Suffice to say, I think there are figures enough for two or three of these sets if we want to go there.
(And I didn't even include Sentinels themselves on this list).
If we did Sentinels as common heroes, though, inclusion in such a set with unique heroes would seem odd. I could almost see them done all by themselves as a solo large expansion, or turned into something like a unique squad of three as part of a large expansion.

Galactus?

[IAmBatman]

I remember. That's the name that was settled on.

[IAmBatman]

Here's the list I made a while back of figures I thought would fit well in a Marvel large figure expansion and a DC large figure expansion. Not saying we should do it this way, but it's food for thought:

Marvel
Goliath
Giganto
Giant Man
Master Mold
Dragon Man
Fin Fang Foom

DC
Starro
Spectre
Atom Smasher
Giganta
Anti Monitor
(Colossal Boy could safely be added).

I don't know enough about Chemo, Elasti-girl, Validus, or Atlas to comment.
Suffice to say, I think there are figures enough for two or three of these sets if we want to go there.
(And I didn't even include Sentinels themselves on this list).
If we did Sentinels as common heroes, though, inclusion in such a set with unique heroes would seem odd. I could almost see them done all by themselves as a solo large expansion, or turned into something like a unique squad of three as part of a large expansion.

Galactus?

If we could figure out how to do him! He almost seems to big to be packaged with anyone else, though (but I'd love to take a crack at him).

[GreyOwl]

I think he could be packaged with other smaller figures, mainly other heralds of Galactus (to go along with Silver Surfer).

[IAmBatman]

That would definitely be a cool set.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

And a costly one!
On the subject of Cyclops, I think you jumped the gun, Bats. Now we gotta get a unanimous vote to get rid of them. Honestly, the first group, IMO, should have something resembling uniforms, not just costumes. That is why earlier I suggested Jean 1, Cyclops 5 (or 6, the Ultimate one), Ultimate Beast Veteran (who is blue and I posted a picture of), Iceman 3, and Angel 2. They would have all been wearing Black and Yellow except Iceman.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I mean check this team out!
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops6.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Angel2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean6.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/BeastUltimateVeteran.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX1.jpg

[IAmBatman]

Bleh, that Jean Grey figure is just awful though, IMO.

[IAmBatman]

And it takes 5 to "jump the gun" on anything around here. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I know, color me guilty. Its just in the excitement to get started, we may have pulled another Green Arrow, except with multiple figures. (And on Jean, do you have any of these yet? they are all pretty bad. Some are just worse. To me the X-Factor one is best, actually somewhat pretty. My :2cents: )

[IAmBatman]

I don't have a single Marvel Hero Clix figure. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

As for Phoenix, she is tough to come by and Strikezone has her listed at $10.32, ebay from $11.65 to $16.99. But she is cheaper than the other clix Jean Grey Phoenix (about $59.99 at cheapest)

Since no one seems to want to take my word on the Beast check out this e-bay listing (make sure to read the description!) BLUE ULTIMATE BEAST (http://cgi.ebay.com/HEROCLIX-Ultimates-045-BEAST-VETERAN_W0QQitemZ270434805206QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?has h=item3ef72ba5d6)

[IAmBatman]

hmm ... crap ... phoenix.

[IAmBatman]

Btw, I'm OK with costumes instead of uniforms - it's not like we're going to find matching outfits for all the X-Men we do in ensuing waves.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yeah I know but its kinda an original X-men trait. Like here and here.http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/574/118620-18550-109251-1-x-men-first-class_super.jpghttp://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/52072/991077-the_history_of_the_x_men_on_tv_20090122025845538_large.jpg (http://www.comicvine.com/the_history_of_the_x_men_on_tv_20090122025845538/105-991077/)

[Cavalier]

I mean check this team out!
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Cyclops6.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Angel2.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Jean6.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/Iceman1.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/BeastUltimateVeteran.jpghttp://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww285/zanyaggie/ProfX1.jpg

Bleh, that Jean Grey figure is just awful though, IMO.
I like all of those figs EXCEPT Jean Grey.

For my own 'Original X-Men', I'm going for the look that Spidey posted above; just lacking a matching Angel. But look what Drewman-Chu did (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=954304#post954304)! :shock:

[IAmBatman]

Here's the comic I had growing up that a lot of my ideas about iconic X-Men are based on:

http://cdn2.ioffer.com/img/item/405/179/26/o_xmen_1_storm_cover_.jpg

[NecroBlade]

Here's my first X-Men comic:





















(Yes, that's just a lot of blank space. ;))

[IAmBatman]

To be fair, I think my first one is about one of ... three, maybe?

[Hahma]

I got some from the 80's and the first bunch of X-Factor.

[IAmBatman]

So, I'd like to hear more thoughts on this - is it important for us to try for a uniform "team" look or are we happy just choosing on a case-by-case basis which figure we think looks best in more of a "costume" approach?

[Hahma]

I wouldn't mind going with the team thing that Spidey put up, but that Jean Grey figure is butt ugly, nearly as bad as the Toad figure.

Edit: Perhaps Jean Grey #4 can be re-painted in the black and yellow colors to match the other uniforms, for card picture purposes.

[IAmBatman]

I agree - which kind of makes me not want to go with that team at all, because it will look strange if Jean is the only one not "uniform" of the bunch ... makes me want to go with shirtless blue fur Beast and the first Angel on the list (and pay more) ... this figure picking stuff seems harder than last time. :-P

[NecroBlade]

As long as the figures are recognizable (in all the ways that Jean Grey is NOT) I could care less about a "team" look.

[Hahma]

Agreed, these will be representative of different era's of X-Men and not just the 'movie' versions or ultimates or whatever.

After there are a bunch of sets and waves released and people can build teams base on points, there will be a missmash of characters running around anyway.

Edit: #1 Angel is cool, but I don't dig the blue skin so much. I don't understand why they didn't may that same figure with regular skin. He had regular skin for a very long time before Apocolypse got a hold of him.

[IAmBatman]

Good, exactly my thoughts.
Is it worth revisiting the Cyclops selection with the idea that this other figure is higher quality, or would you guys prefer to press on?

[Hahma]

It's worth revisiting if people prefer that for the picture and not necessarily the one they have to own. Either can work as I've seen him in both poses enough.

[IAmBatman]

Well, we can save that for the end of the figure voting, then.
So far we have our Magneto, Mystique, Juggernaut, Pyro, Prof. X, Cyclops and Jean Grey figures chosen.
Which brings us down to Angel, Beast, Iceman, Toad, Sentinels, and Civilians.
We definitely need more talk on Sentinels.
I think I'll go with another multiple figure proposal, with some multiple choice in there for Angel, Beast, and Iceman.

[Drewman-chu]

I am not sure if I am allowed to post here or not but I have been waiting a long time:roll: for you guys to start on the X-men. I am curious as to why you aren't doing the original X-men team? To me that would be great place to start and it seems to fit your stated goals of this project namely #1#2#3. There are already plenty of Cyclops, Beast, Jean Grey, Iceman and Angel cards but no set of Original X-men cards that all go together. There are even figures with all the original costumes except for Angel(see my customs). I really feel you will miss a great opportunity if you just do character rather than a team concept. Sorry to interrupt but I feel others may think this way too.

[IAmBatman]

Drewman, anyone is welcome to post here. :-) So don't feel bad at all about that.
I would argue that we are doing the characters in the original X-Men team, just not necessarily the original versions of all of those characters due to a desire to do more iconic versions of characters we're not likely to get back to in some time (with Beast in the blue fur variety being an example).

[Cavalier]

I am not sure if I am allowed to post here or not but I have been waiting a long time:roll: for you guys to start on the X-men. I am curious as to why you aren't doing the original X-men team? To me that would be great place to start and it seems to fit your stated goals of this project namely #1#2#3. There are already plenty of Cyclops, Beast, Jean Grey, Iceman and Angel cards but no set of Original X-men cards that all go together. There are even figures with all the original costumes except for Angel(see my customs). I really feel you will miss a great opportunity if you just do character rather than a team concept. Sorry to interrupt but I feel others may think this way too.
Drew, are you thinking of a 'squad' type unit or just a set of heroes with a built in synergy? I have made my own custom X-Men (based on the great work of several customs creators) and they have a some abilities that let them work better as a team or at least with other X-Men, but they are all still individual heroes.

[Drewman-chu]

I was thinking of a set of unique hero cards(think wave 8 Elves cards) that really worked as a team but could always be used individually. The way I always saw the Original X-men in the comic was they were great as a team but pretty weak individualy hence all the practice in the danger room.


I would argue that we are doing the characters in the original X-Men team, just not necessarily the original versions of all of those characters
[/quote]

But here is a chance to start from the beginning and do some creative and unique team things rather iconic figures and cards of which many have been made multiple times. Why not start with Original Xmen team then do the 70's team or 90's team as future projects. I thought that was in your goals of theme and compatibility.

[IAmBatman]

We pretty much are treating each custom like it's going to be our last for the C3G. We don't know what our creation window is here, we don't know how long people will stay with this project, and we don't know how long it will take us to get to characters for the second time.
If we were tied to chronological order, we would start off with the Golden Age Superman who leaps instead of flies.
If we treat it like we're only going to do each character once, then we're going to end up choosing the version of the character we find most interesting and iconic, and do secondary versions in that far off hypothetical future.
IMO, that means doing blue fur Beast now, for instance, and saving the furless Beast for some other time after we've gone through some of the other hundreds of characters we're interested in doing treatments of.

[Drewman-chu]

I can see where you coming from but to me if I want a blue fur Beast( I agree he is the best and most iconic) I just go to the A-Z thread and find one. Ditto for Cyclops Jean, Iceman, Angel and Prof X. What I want is a set of cards that go together thematically, visually and playability (could'nt think of a word). That's what I was hoping for when you started the C3g.

[IAmBatman]

It's really not just that they go together as a single release, it's that they work together in terms of power mechanics, consistency, thematic power level of relative characters within the scope of the entire project. I want the C3G Cyclops to feel right when played with the C3G Superman, not just when played with the C3G Magneto. The other things that set C3G apart and I believe will continue to are the commitment to collaboration and the commitment to playtesting. I can just grab a blue fur Beast off of the A-Z thread, yeah, but I have no idea of knowing how balanced the card will be or if he'll feel at all "right" played alongside other comic book characters, and especially other comic book customs.
I think the only visual consistency we're really trying to push for is "quality" and the only other figure criteria we've come up with thus far are "affordability" and "availability."
That said, I think if someone was really interested they could easily redo the art for the C3G X-Men cards but keep the powers and other text and use a really nice, balanced, playable set of characters in a different style (that style being more of a "first class/original X-Men" style).
I think these cards will go together thematically. I think they'll go together in terms of playability and mechanical and thematic consistency. Visually? I think they'll fit with the entire set of C3G figures, not just with this specific group of C3G X-Men figures.
I'll be very disappointed if we do later X-Men releases and it feels wrong to play Emma Frost or Colossus or Rogue with this group of figures because we made them overly homogeneous.

[IAmBatman]

I thought about going "c" for Beast, GreyOwl, but the figure seems smaller and lower quality than "a." It's so hard going off of pictures sometimes ... do you have either of those?

[GreyOwl]

I have the "c" one. But I don't have any of the others to compare to. :(

[GreyOwl]

Do you want me to take a better picture of the "c" Beast in comparison to something else? What figure would help to see next to it?

[Drewman-chu]

I can understand why you are doing characters rather than a team thing. So there will be only one Jean Grey version rather than a Marvel girl or Phoenix. I think it would be great to have alternative artwork versions, you would make a lot of fans happy especially if they have different figure variations That way you can have a original Cyclops card and a 90's one. The Xmen powers have not changed much over the years except for Angel and Jean. It will be interesting how you will do the powers ex. some synergy vs no synergy. I always thought of the X-men as team vs Avengers a individual group. Thoughts?

[GreyOwl]

I could see doing both a Jean Grey and a Phoenix, as they have significantly different power levels and motivations. But I can't see doing different versions of Iceman, Cyclops, Wolverine, Colossus, etc.

[IAmBatman]

We can't have the expectation that we will ever get around to niche representations of any characters just because there are soooo many characters we want to do and the process is not quick. That said, there's nothing to prevent us from going back and doing less iconic versions of characters later if the interest is there both from us and the community. There's just a lot of ground to cover. :-)
I think the loose plan for this set is to have a Jean Grey that turns into a Phoenix to kill two birds with one stone.
I think it would be great to have alternative artwork versions too, but that's spoken like someone who doesn't have the burden of having to do all the artwork. :-P
I think I'd like to see some synergy on these cards, but not synergy that's so restrictive that it only ever makes sense to draft these five or six characters together. For X-Men, I'm more thinking that I'd like to see a lot of the synergies based on mutants so that any member the X-Men have had in their fold over the years can benefit, not just the original five.
The only team that I ever really want to see so synergistically tight that it wouldn't make much sense to draft them into armies not composed of that team are the Fantastic Four (who, interestingly enough, only have uniformed versions for the most part).
So I see Avengers as an individual group. I see X-Men as a team with an ever-changing roster that should have a bit more open ended synergies. And I see Fantastic Four as an extremely tight team that has four iconic members (and I wouldn't mind maybe seeing She-Hulk benefit as well).
Since we're not doing team icons, we can't just slap a synergy on "X-Men" as a whole, and I'd prefer not to have many synergies that are so limited in their playability that they only refer to one or two cards (like a Cyclops that only benefits Beast and Jean Grey and Iceman and Angel). So I really think that based synergies on species - mutant in this case - is the way to go.
For Avengers or Justice League, I'd want to see most synergies based on something as wide as "unique heroes" except in the rare case where two characters are really closely related (like Green Arrow and Black Canary). Superman's Heroic Duty is really the only other "synergy" power in our World's Finest set, and that works with all figures.
I have some great ideas for a future Martian Manhunter who'd have great synergy with all unique heroes, though.

[Drewman-chu]

Your right Grey Owl Phoenix and Jean Grey are really two different characters whereas Cyclops is always just Cyclops.

[GreyOwl]

We can't have the expectation that we will ever get around to niche representations of any characters just because there are soooo many characters we want to do and the process is not quick. That said, there's nothing to prevent us from going back and doing less iconic versions of characters later if the interest is there both from us and the community. There's just a lot of ground to cover. :-)
I think the loose plan for this set is to have a Jean Grey that turns into a Phoenix to kill two birds with one stone.
I think it would be great to have alternative artwork versions too, but that's spoken like someone who doesn't have the burden of having to do all the artwork. :-P
I think I'd like to see some synergy on these cards, but not synergy that's so restrictive that it only ever makes sense to draft these five or six characters together. For X-Men, I'm more thinking that I'd like to see a lot of the synergies based on mutants so that any member the X-Men have had in their fold over the years can benefit, not just the original five.
The only team that I ever really want to see so synergistically tight that it wouldn't make much sense to draft them into armies not composed of that team are the Fantastic Four (who, interestingly enough, only have uniformed versions for the most part).
So I see Avengers as an individual group. I see X-Men as a team with an ever-changing roster that should have a bit more open ended synergies. And I see Fantastic Four as an extremely tight team that has four iconic members (and I wouldn't mind maybe seeing She-Hulk benefit as well).
Since we're not doing team icons, we can't just slap a synergy on "X-Men" as a whole, and I'd prefer not to have many synergies that are so limited in their playability that they only refer to one or two cards (like a Cyclops that only benefits Beast and Jean Grey and Iceman and Angel). So I really think that based synergies on species - mutant in this case - is the way to go.
For Avengers or Justice League, I'd want to see most synergies based on something as wide as "unique heroes" except in the rare case where two characters are really closely related (like Green Arrow and Black Canary). Superman's Heroic Duty is really the only other "synergy" power in our World's Finest set, and that works with all figures.
I have some great ideas for a future Martian Manhunter who'd have great synergy with all unique heroes, though.

I agree with almost everything you said. Except I don't think we can effectively represent Jean Grey and Phoenix on the same card. Jean Grey is just a "normal" Mutant, though quite a powerful one. But Phoenix is a cosmic entity that is god-like in power levels. Phoenix, I think, would have to be a 600-800 point figure, whereas Jean Grey would be nowhere near that level.

For teams, I still like the idea of the Team Card that I have for my customs (though the original idea was by Allskulls). It offers an optional way to have team synergies, but keeps the team abilities off the individual figure cards. The team card itself has a cost so you if you draft it, you pay extra for the synergy. I think it's a simple, clean way to do teams without forcing the idea of team onto those players that don't want it. Maybe we can include something like that into the X-Men set?

[Drewman-chu]

Since we're not doing team icons, we can't just slap a synergy on "X-Men" as a whole, and I'd prefer not to have many synergies that are so limited in their playability that they only refer to one or two cards (like a Cyclops that only benefits Beast and Jean Grey and Iceman and Angel). So I really think that based synergies on species - mutant in this case - is the way to go.


I know you probably covered this 100x over but is there really no way to do team powers versus species powers. To me it just seems wrong that Toad would benefit from being with Cyclops during any draft.

[IAmBatman]

Team Cards sound like one of those optional rules additions things that we should think about right after DO's and Vehicle rules to me.
(Trying to keep these sets without too much added complexity each time that we never release them!).
As for Jean Grey, I don't think I did an adequate job of describing what I meant. There'd be two cards. There'd either be one or two figures (depending on what we decide). We'd simply be doing a Jean Grey that could transform into a Phoenix (and thus use the second card) but both would be drafted separately, ala Iskra and the Rechets.

[IAmBatman]

Since we're not doing team icons, we can't just slap a synergy on "X-Men" as a whole, and I'd prefer not to have many synergies that are so limited in their playability that they only refer to one or two cards (like a Cyclops that only benefits Beast and Jean Grey and Iceman and Angel). So I really think that based synergies on species - mutant in this case - is the way to go.I know you probably covered this 100x over but is there really no way to do team powers versus species powers. To me it just seems wrong that Toad would benefit from being with Cyclops during any draft.

And it's easy enough for you to avoid Toad benefiting from Cyclops by just not letting the two be on the same team.
That said, if someone wants to come up with a story idea where Toad joined the X-Men and have their personal X-Men team consist of Cyclops and Toad, would I feel bad about Toad getting the synergies then? Not at all.
And there are so many characters that have been both with and against the X-Men at times it's crazy - Magneto, Rogue, Psylocke, Emma Frost, and Archangel just to name a few ...

Edit: And then add in Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver both of whom have been Avengers and Brotherhood at separate times ...

[GreyOwl]

Team Cards sound like one of those optional rules additions things that we should think about right after DO's and Vehicle rules to me.
(Trying to keep these sets without too much added complexity each time that we never release them!).


Well, DO rules are intended to be part of the X-Men set, right? And vehicle rules will not be part of the set. So I think we can do DO rules and team cards both, because the team cards don't really have any rules and are quite simple. I don't think anything has to be written up except 2-3 sentences explaining that you can draft them just like normal cards. The team card has 1-3 powers on it, and list the team members affected, so their use is the same as normal special powers.

Plus I think the X-Men set would be perfect for them, because as you said they're a team that's not as well defined as the FF4. So they could potentially have a few different team cards for different team combinations.



As for Jean Grey, I don't think I did an adequate job of describing what I meant. There'd be two cards. There'd either be one or two figures (depending on what we decide). We'd simply be doing a Jean Grey that could transform into a Phoenix (and thus use the second card) but both would be drafted separately, ala Iskra and the Rechets.

I misunderstood. That makes perfect sense, and I'm completely behind that idea! :)

[Drewman-chu]

For teams, I still like the idea of the Team Card that I have for my customs (though the original idea was by Allskulls). It offers an optional way to have team synergies, but keeps the team abilities off the individual figure cards. The team card itself has a cost so you if you draft it, you pay extra for the synergy. I think it's a simple, clean way to do teams without forcing the idea of team onto those players that don't want it. Maybe we can include something like that into the X-Men set?

Great idea Grey Owl it would solve many previous issues.

[IAmBatman]

The thing with the Team Cards is that they would be one more thing to design and one more thing to playtest ... if we're going to do them for this set, I'd almost rather have us do them in place of the DO's (and save those for a few sets) than instead of ... Each optional rules item we include slows down the process just a little bit more.

[GreyOwl]

Just so everyone knows what I'm talking about, here's an example of one of the Team Cards:

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/X-MEN-Original.jpg

[GreyOwl]

The thing with the Team Cards is that they would be one more thing to design and one more thing to playtest ... if we're going to do them for this set, I'd almost rather have us do them in place of the DO's (and save those for a few sets) than instead of ... Each optional rules item we include slows down the process just a little bit more.

If you think about it, Team Cards are pretty much like glyphs in terms of their behavior. My suggestion would be to do DO's for the X-Men set's optional rules, and do the Team Cards in place of Glyphs. Or instead of 8 glyphs, do 4 glyphs-4 team cards, or 6 glyphs-2 team cards or something like that. That way, no extra work is created in terms of design and playtesting.

[IAmBatman]

It'd basically be like adding in an entire new unit that had to be playtested as such ... or a draftable glyph. And since this would be the first time we'd be doing one, there'd be plenty of tweaking and playtesting and replaytesting necessary to ensure balance.

[IAmBatman]

The thing with the Team Cards is that they would be one more thing to design and one more thing to playtest ... if we're going to do them for this set, I'd almost rather have us do them in place of the DO's (and save those for a few sets) than instead of ... Each optional rules item we include slows down the process just a little bit more.

If you think about it, Team Cards are pretty much like glyphs in terms of their behavior. My suggestion would be to do DO's for the X-Men set's optional rules, and do the Team Cards in place of Glyphs. Or instead of 8 glyphs, do 4 glyphs-4 team cards, or 6 glyphs-2 team cards or something like that. That way, no extra work is created in terms of design and playtesting.

I could get on board with doing some of these in place of some glyphs.
Once the current figure voting is done, you should put up a proposal to that extent.

[Balantai]

I completely back GreyOwl's vision of Team Cards. In my opinion, Team Cards are a better fit with our X-Men set than DO's. The X-Men is probably the most recognizable comic book team.

Drewman-chu also brings up some good points. (Nice to see you posting here!) On the other hand, Bats is also right. I don't see us doing two verisons of many of these characters. I think I'd like to see alternate cards for these figures that would have them in thier original uniforms. That combined with a Team Card that focused on their synergies at the time, could make for some great fun.

[IAmBatman]

The more and more I think about it, I'm really worried about the playtesting component of Team Up cards.
We really would be playtesting them as units (since they're draftable) but we'd have zero comparative basis for units like that. They're basically unkillable units that have glyph level effects. What keeps glyphs balanced is that they have to be held, and they usually have to be held (on balanced maps) at disadvantageous spots on the battlefield. With a card like that, you'd have it all the time, it couldn't be killed, your enemies couldn't take control of it, and the synergies would benefit everyone on the team.
That's going to be something really, really powerful and something really, really hard to test for.
And it'd also require a lot of playtesting time commitment. Honestly if we chose to go this direction (and a vote would be needed), I'd almost like to see it in place of all of the Glyphs and the Destructible Objects rules for the set. We'd get back to both of those at later times, of course, just not in this set ...

[GreyOwl]

I really don't think it would be as bad as that. Yes, they can't be killed, but they also don't need to be killed. They also can't move, attack, defend, etc. They essentially just add a special power or two to the figures on the team.

As far as testing, it would not affect any of the individual unit tests, since they aren't on a team individually. When doing the heroes vs. villains tests, we'd probably have to do a "with team card" and "without team card" test. Other than that, I don't see additional tests needed since they can only be used when the whole team is together. But that is a slight increase in testing required, so I think instead of 8 glyphs, we could do 2 team cards (X-Men and Brotherhood of Evil Mutants), and 4 glyphs. In terms of testing effort I think it's fair to treat each team card as 2 glyph cards.

[IAmBatman]

I disagree. For Glyphs we basically only have to test that the mechanics work, that the powers aren't confusing, that they feel thematically accurate, and that they aren't too game changing (because all Glyphs are game changing, which is why you have to be careful where you place them, etc.).
For Team cards you have to do all of that, check for synergies with each individual figure that's effected, and, most importantly, you have to test for cost. Testing for cost is by far the most difficult and time intensive part of playtesting. These cards would need to be put through the same amount of testing as units - which is much greater than the amount of playtesting two glyphs went through.
Maybe, maybe, maybe we could say two Team cards = 8 powered glyphs. But I think even that's a bit liberal.

[Balantai]

Again, I agree with GreyOwl. It will be the same as our additional testing with Green Arrow and Black Canary. When they were played seperately, their bonding power was not used. Therefore, we had to do additional testing with the two of them together. It would be the same for the Team Cards. The only difference is that we would never have to increase the cost of the figures. The cost would be incorporated directly into the card itself. I think it will actually be easier than Glyph testing.

[GreyOwl]

Okay, then what if team cards didn't have a cost and were more like glyphs? In fact, what if they were just glyph? "Glyph of X-Men", "Glyph of Brotherhood of Evil Mutants"...?

[GreyOwl]

Again, I agree with GreyOwl. It will be the same as our additional testing with Green Arrow and Black Canary. When they were played seperately, their bonding power was not used. Therefore, we had to do additional testing with the two of them together. It would be the same for the Team Cards. The only difference is that we would never have to increase the cost of the figures. The cost would be incorporated directly into the card itself. I think it will actually be easier than Glyph testing.

That's another way to think about it. It's just like testing a bonding power, except it's very clear where the cost should go.

[Balantai]

I disagree. For Glyphs we basically only have to test that the mechanics work, that the powers aren't confusing, that they feel thematically accurate, and that they aren't too game changing (because all Glyphs are game changing, which is why you have to be careful where you place them, etc.).
For Team cards you have to do all of that, check for synergies with each individual figure that's effected, and, most importantly, you have to test for cost. Testing for cost is by far the most difficult and time intensive part of playtesting. These cards would need to be put through the same amount of testing as units - which is much greater than the amount of playtesting two glyphs went through.
Maybe, maybe, maybe we could say two Team cards = 8 powered glyphs. But I think even that's a bit liberal.

This sounds more like a rant against synergies than against Team Cards.

[Balantai]

Okay, then what if team cards didn't have a cost and were more like glyphs? In fact, what if they were just glyph? "Glyph of X-Men", "Glyph of Brotherhood of Evil Mutants"...?

Now you lost me. :?

Is it thematic they need to stand on a specific glyph before they can benefit from a synergy like that?

[GreyOwl]

Ehh...I'm just throwing out an idea, and it's obviously not fully baked. :)

I don't know, maybe it's like an Equipment Glyph except you start the game with it. But instead of being equipped by a specific figure/army card, it is equipped by the player...?

That being said, I still like the original idea better, but I'd willing for a more glyph-like approach if it would be more feasible to do.

[IAmBatman]

I disagree. For Glyphs we basically only have to test that the mechanics work, that the powers aren't confusing, that they feel thematically accurate, and that they aren't too game changing (because all Glyphs are game changing, which is why you have to be careful where you place them, etc.).
For Team cards you have to do all of that, check for synergies with each individual figure that's effected, and, most importantly, you have to test for cost. Testing for cost is by far the most difficult and time intensive part of playtesting. These cards would need to be put through the same amount of testing as units - which is much greater than the amount of playtesting two glyphs went through.
Maybe, maybe, maybe we could say two Team cards = 8 powered glyphs. But I think even that's a bit liberal.

This sounds more like a rant against synergies than against Team Cards.

My apologies. It wasn't intended to be a rant at all.
And it wasn't meant to be "against" anything either.
It was merely intended to show that (in my opinion, of course) the playtesting commitment required for anything you need to put a cost on is as intensive as the playtesting involved with a figure. And, to me, based on my own playtesting experience: The time taken to playtest a unit properly >>> the time taken to playtest two glyphs properly.

[Balantai]

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Bats. This is a great substitue for putting Team Affiliation Logos on the cards. It's the main reason I'm backing this. We can put specific team synergies directly on the Team Cards. This way, when they play as individual figures, they are thematic, but when they play with their specific teammates, at a cost, they will be even more thematic. I'm loving this idea.

[IAmBatman]

I guess the longer we've been away from the Team Logos, the more I've mentally adjusted and even grown to like that decision.
I kind of like that I won't feel penalized for deciding to make an X-Men team that isn't the team on the card. I like that we could have synergies that exist across the entire species of mutants rather than between just five figures. That flexibility allows for more creativity and more different army combos, which I like.
That said, I do see the appeal of having "backdoor team affiliations" and if we do them, I don't dislike them as a draftable object. My concerns have really nothing to do with the basic idea or mechanics in play.
They're merely related to the time investment involved in such an inclusion. And I don't even mind investing that time, just so long as we remove a time investment of equal size from the planned set.
I'm trying to lessen the time between releases here, not increase it. :-P

[Balantai]

My apologies. It wasn't intended to be a rant at all.
And it wasn't meant to be "against" anything either.
It was merely intended to show that (in my opinion, of course) the playtesting commitment required for anything you need to put a cost on is as intensive as the playtesting involved with a figure. And, to me, based on my own playtesting experience: The time taken to playtest a unit properly >>> the time taken to playtest two glyphs properly.

Don't be silly. There's no reason to apologize. :D

If we use Team Cards, we could avoid bonding with Mutants. This is a big deal for me. Cyclops should not give all mutants +1 attack. He should be giving X-Men +1 attack because of his extensive training in the Danger Room (one of our maps!) with fellow X-Men.

[IAmBatman]

I don't really think Cyclops should give anyone +1 attack, honestly. I could see more of a "cover fire" ability on him, if anything. Or a Mutant Leadership power that gave +1 move to Mutants.
And I would like to see some Mutant-wide synergies, honestly. Especially since the membership of the X-Men (and other X-teams, and the Brotherhood) has been so fluid over the years. There are plenty of characters that thematically fit in a number of those teams and the only thing they all have in common is that they're mutants.

[GreyOwl]

Personally, I'd be okay with 2 team cards instead of any glyphs. I can't really think of any X-Men specific glyphs anyway.

[Balantai]

I'm trying to lessen the time between releases here, not increase it. :-P

I can't promise that I'll playtest our X-Men set, but I can promise you that I won't be working full time and going to school full time anymore. It was too much for me this semester. Trying to fit work, school, family and friends (you guys!) into a 24 hour day is hard work.

Also, I will be asking for a bunch of Heroscape hexes for the holidays. In other words, I hope to help out as much as Hahma for our next release.

[Balantai]

Personally, I'd be okay with 2 team cards instead of any glyphs. I can't really think of any X-Men specific glyphs anyway.

On the other hand, I'd love to see DO's. I really like the idea of Magneto throwing around DO's. :twisted:

[IAmBatman]

If we could get a crack playtest team of Griffin, Hahma, Spidey, Balantai, Necroblade, I, and some throw-ins going for this next set, a lot of my playtesting related concerns will die out.
That said, the proof is in the pudding. :-P
And I did have some ideas I was going to throw out there for X-Men glyphs, but nothing I'll be too depressed to lose/delay.

[Balantai]

I don't really think Cyclops should give anyone +1 attack, honestly. I could see more of a "cover fire" ability on him, if anything. Or a Mutant Leadership power that gave +1 move to Mutants.
And I would like to see some Mutant-wide synergies, honestly. Especially since the membership of the X-Men (and other X-teams, and the Brotherhood) has been so fluid over the years. There are plenty of characters that thematically fit in a number of those teams and the only thing they all have in common is that they're mutants.

I think this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. Just because all X-Men are Mutants, doesn't mean that all Mutants are X-Men. The X-Men aren't the Avengers. Besides, they don't get their synergies because of their species. They get it due to their teamwork practice.

[Cavalier]

Just an outside observer's 2¢: On my personal X-Men, their class is listed as X-Men. Units that give bonuses to/interact with X-Men refer to that and those that do the same with all mutants refer to the species.

I understand if that's not how you guys want to do yours, but it works for me. And If I want to represent when a unit is or isn't part of the X-Men, I have 2 different cards. For Iceman, for example, I have 1 for him as an X-Man and 1 as an Adventurer. That way I can use him with the X-Men or as part of Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends without messing up synergies.

[Matt Helm]

Just an outside observer's 2¢: On my personal X-Men, their class is listed as X-Men. Units that give bonuses to/interact with X-Men refer to that and those that do the same with all mutants refer to the species.

I understand if that's not how you guys want to do yours, but it works for me. And If I want to represent when a unit is or isn't part of the X-Men, I have 2 different cards. For Iceman, for example, I have 1 for him as an X-Man and 1 as an Adventurer. That way I can use him with the X-Men or as part of Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends without messing up synergies.

This is a great idea that I have also thought about myself (just this past weekend while scaping). However, don't shoot me but I don't think the team synergy is all that important for the X-Men. Each one is pretty unique and will have a host of cool powers. Wasting time on each card with X-Men bonuses seems silly to me.

As far as Cav's idea, I was thinking that if Garada ever came back to edit my Fantastic Four, that is what I had planned to do. Change all of the classes to "Fantastic Four". I always thought that they were the real team that needs the synergy and possibly the only one. Every other team has member changes often and an encyclopedia of potential characters to include.

But anyway, Cav's idea works for me.

[IAmBatman]

I don't really think Cyclops should give anyone +1 attack, honestly. I could see more of a "cover fire" ability on him, if anything. Or a Mutant Leadership power that gave +1 move to Mutants.
And I would like to see some Mutant-wide synergies, honestly. Especially since the membership of the X-Men (and other X-teams, and the Brotherhood) has been so fluid over the years. There are plenty of characters that thematically fit in a number of those teams and the only thing they all have in common is that they're mutants.

I think this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. Just because all X-Men are Mutants, doesn't mean that all Mutants are X-Men. The X-Men aren't the Avengers. Besides, they don't get their synergies because of their species. They get it due to their teamwork practice.

To me, you don't benefit from Cyclops' leadership ability really because you're a Mutant or an X-Man. You benefit because he's on your team and he's leading you. So that's probably one that wouldn't even necessarily need to be limited to Mutants except to keep his costs down and keep its gameplay effect from going too crazy (or combining with two many other figures like Marcus with his Soldier Leadership).
Someone like Prof. X. having a power or two that synergizes with all Mutants would be more thematically on the ball, though.


Just an outside observer's 2¢: On my personal X-Men, their class is listed as X-Men. Units that give bonuses to/interact with X-Men refer to that and those that do the same with all mutants refer to the species.

I understand if that's not how you guys want to do yours, but it works for me. And If I want to represent when a unit is or isn't part of the X-Men, I have 2 different cards. For Iceman, for example, I have 1 for him as an X-Man and 1 as an Adventurer. That way I can use him with the X-Men or as part of Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends without messing up synergies.

Yeah, I think that level of flexibility is great, but difficult to do when trying to mimic official sets as closely as possible. Having a team for a class just doesn't seem that official to me, which is why, for people who really want to go that way, having draftable (optional) team cards probably is the best way to handle this.
And, like I've said above, though they're not something I'd personally fight to have included, I'm more than happy to see these included just so long as we take something else out (like the Glyphs) to keep the playtesting burden even keeled.
I'd hate to see Hahma get burnt out and bail on us. :-P

[IAmBatman]

However, don't shoot me but I don't think the team synergy is all that important for the X-Men. Each one is pretty unique and will have a host of cool powers. Wasting time on each card with X-Men bonuses seems silly to me.

"Fantastic Four". I always thought that they were the real team that needs the synergy and possibly the only one. Every other team has member changes often and an encyclopedia of potential characters to include.

I'm in complete agreement on both of these points.
Did you mind shackle me or something, Mr. Helm? You're starting to make a lot more sense to me these days. :-P
For the Fantastic Four I could almost see tying it to personality and giving all of them the personality "Fantastic" but that might seem a bit hokey or inaccurate ...

[GreyOwl]

On my FF4 customs, I made all of their classes Adventurer and tied it to that. I know there are other Adventurers, but it kept it less-hokey (your words, not mine :) ) and more official-sounding.

So Bats, what's your feeling on the team card as glyphs idea, where they have no cost and are "equipped" to the player?

[IAmBatman]

How would that work exactly? Basically like, for instance, a normal +2 move glyph that you would pick up off the battlefield and "equip" so your entire team had +2 move?

[GreyOwl]

How would that work exactly? Basically like, for instance, a normal +2 move glyph that you would pick up off the battlefield and "equip" so your entire team had +2 move?

What I was thinking was an Equipment Glyph that you already start the game with instead of picking it up on the map. But instead of a specific figure in your army equipping the glyph, the controlling player equips it. Essentially all that means is that you can't ever drop or lose the glyph, no matter which figures get killed.

The glyph card would have text stating that if you control Figure A, Figure B, and Figure C then all of those figures receive +2 move (for example).

[IAmBatman]

Uh ... so it would be an equipment glyph that wouldn't be an equipment glyph or a glyph at all but really just the Team card without a cost associated with it? :-P

[wriggz]

I am confused. Is cyclop's class going to be teacher? Is Beast going to be a professor? What do you call Iceman? Is wolverine a murder? Or are they all X-men?

Why do you need a team logo or a team card when a class already exists?

[Balantai]

Uh ... so it would be an equipment glyph that wouldn't be an equipment glyph or a glyph at all but really just the Team card without a cost associated with it? :-P

The world's greatest detective, gentlemen! You can't pull the wool over on Bats' eyes. ;)

[IAmBatman]

Uh ... so it would be an equipment glyph that wouldn't be an equipment glyph or a glyph at all but really just the Team card without a cost associated with it? :-P

The world's greatest detective, gentlemen! You can't pull the wool over on Bats' eyes. ;)

I really don't see any way to make the mechanic work without assigning it a cost unless you restrict it completely to scenario play (which I don't think is what you're going for here). A free synergy card would be completely broken. :-P
Hmm ... and that's a good point about what other classes would these guys have ... Adventurer seems to fit Iceman, but what about the others?
Philanthropist for Angel? That seems weak. Protector? Maybe ... What about Cyclops? Leader? Fighter? Wolverine? Fighter? Warrior? Jean Grey, maybe Telepath (I could see that having synergies all its own). Beast ... Creature? Beast? :-P

[Balantai]

Beast - Scientist

[Balantai]

I really don't see any way to make the mechanic work without assigning it a cost unless you restrict it completely to scenario play (which I don't think is what you're going for here). A free synergy card would be completely broken. :-P

I agree, Bats. If we decide to move forward with the Team Card idea, there needs to be a cost attached to the card.

[IAmBatman]

And since the equipment glyph = the Team card idea, if we do any approach to this it's seeming like it will be the Team card idea ...
I think if we do two cards for this and nix all the glyphs for the set, that will be a balanced approach that won't slow this set down significantly. If it went up for a vote, I'd be favoring that right now.
Though there is something to be said for not adding completely game changing things with every set ... we don't want to alienate our fanbase by departing from the official game too much ... (I know a lot of these are optional rules, but we'll already have the flying symbol, the knockback rules, and the Destructible Object optional rules ... I don't want to overwhelm players too much, so it is a concern).
But since Glyphs are just as optional and some add just as much of a new twist (just in a more familiar package) that might not be such a big deal ...

[Hahma]

Just an outside observer's 2¢: On my personal X-Men, their class is listed as X-Men. Units that give bonuses to/interact with X-Men refer to that and those that do the same with all mutants refer to the species.

I understand if that's not how you guys want to do yours, but it works for me. And If I want to represent when a unit is or isn't part of the X-Men, I have 2 different cards. For Iceman, for example, I have 1 for him as an X-Man and 1 as an Adventurer. That way I can use him with the X-Men or as part of Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends without messing up synergies.

This is a great idea that I have also thought about myself (just this past weekend while scaping). However, don't shoot me but I don't think the team synergy is all that important for the X-Men. Each one is pretty unique and will have a host of cool powers. Wasting time on each card with X-Men bonuses seems silly to me.

As far as Cav's idea, I was thinking that if Garada ever came back to edit my Fantastic Four, that is what I had planned to do. Change all of the classes to "Fantastic Four". I always thought that they were the real team that needs the synergy and possibly the only one. Every other team has member changes often and an encyclopedia of potential characters to include.

But anyway, Cav's idea works for me.

While each X-Men/X-Factor do have a different and cool powers, they also have certain "moves" or "plays" so to speak at times. While running at an opponent, Cyclops might yell, "move 9", whereby Iceman might hit someone high and Beast hits them low...that sort of thing. So I'd say they do have cause to have some type of synergies. Though I do agree with you MH that I'd rather not use up space on cards for those synergies (except perhaps Prof. X). :)

I don't really think Cyclops should give anyone +1 attack, honestly. I could see more of a "cover fire" ability on him, if anything. Or a Mutant Leadership power that gave +1 move to Mutants.
And I would like to see some Mutant-wide synergies, honestly. Especially since the membership of the X-Men (and other X-teams, and the Brotherhood) has been so fluid over the years. There are plenty of characters that thematically fit in a number of those teams and the only thing they all have in common is that they're mutants.

I think this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. Just because all X-Men are Mutants, doesn't mean that all Mutants are X-Men. The X-Men aren't the Avengers. Besides, they don't get their synergies because of their species. They get it due to their teamwork practice.

To me, you don't benefit from Cyclops' leadership ability really because you're a Mutant or an X-Man. You benefit because he's on your team and he's leading you. So that's probably one that wouldn't even necessarily need to be limited to Mutants except to keep his costs down and keep its gameplay effect from going too crazy (or combining with two many other figures like Marcus with his Soldier Leadership).
Someone like Prof. X. having a power or two that synergizes with all Mutants would be more thematically on the ball, though.


Just an outside observer's 2¢: On my personal X-Men, their class is listed as X-Men. Units that give bonuses to/interact with X-Men refer to that and those that do the same with all mutants refer to the species.

I understand if that's not how you guys want to do yours, but it works for me. And If I want to represent when a unit is or isn't part of the X-Men, I have 2 different cards. For Iceman, for example, I have 1 for him as an X-Man and 1 as an Adventurer. That way I can use him with the X-Men or as part of Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends without messing up synergies.

Yeah, I think that level of flexibility is great, but difficult to do when trying to mimic official sets as closely as possible. Having a team for a class just doesn't seem that official to me, which is why, for people who really want to go that way, having draftable (optional) team cards probably is the best way to handle this.
And, like I've said above, though they're not something I'd personally fight to have included, I'm more than happy to see these included just so long as we take something else out (like the Glyphs) to keep the playtesting burden even keeled.
I'd hate to see Hahma get burnt out and bail on us. :-P

That's it...I'm done, I'm bailing outta here :p

Here's a radical thought, so I'll quote a fellow C3G senior citizen (though not quite as old as me :p), "Don't shoot me". Since C3G is designing two cards, one with figure (official-like) and one with comic art (unofficial), would it be out of the realm of possibility to have X-MEN listed as the class on the comic art card that is unofficial anyway? This could allow the Team Card to reference X-Men instead of individual members such as Cyclops, Jean Grey etc. This would also allow people to use the mini-art card and it would look as official as others, others that want to use the Team Cards can use the comic art cards with X-MEN class, but that (X-MEN class) and the comic art would be the only difference between the two card versions.

Just a thought, good or not.



And since the equipment glyph = the Team card idea, if we do any approach to this it's seeming like it will be the Team card idea ...
I think if we do two cards for this and nix all the glyphs for the set, that will be a balanced approach that won't slow this set down significantly. If it went up for a vote, I'd be favoring that right now.
Though there is something to be said for not adding completely game changing things with every set ... we don't want to alienate our fanbase by departing from the official game too much ... (I know a lot of these are optional rules, but we'll already have the flying symbol, the knockback rules, and the Destructible Object optional rules ... I don't want to overwhelm players too much, so it is a concern).
But since Glyphs are just as optional and some add just as much of a new twist (just in a more familiar package) that might not be such a big deal ...

I agree that to get the Team Cards in, we'd be better served to eliminate the Glyphs for the set. However, since there were some Glyphs released with Waves, I don't see any reason that we couldn't release a Glyph or two with each of the upcoming waves to get them in but not all at once.

People are coming up with some great ideas and its awesome to get excited, we want that to continue. I don't know about Bats, but my first reaction to all the great ideas is "Man, this is going to take a lot of testing". So I have commented earlier somewhere that with all the excitement and great ideas, the realistic part of it is that we should consider our wants and expectations for release time. If we want it to take 4 months to get a set released, then we have to consider that with our wish list. If we want to sacrifice turn over time or release time, then the wish list can be longer if that is what it takes to get it right. I'm not opposed to great ideas, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective of demand vs. productivity. :D

[GreyOwl]

But since Glyphs are just as optional and some add just as much of a new twist (just in a more familiar package) that might not be such a big deal ...

This was precisely why I suggested the glyph approach, even though I personally like the Team Cord with a cost method better.

[GreyOwl]

I think we can come up with unique classes to the various X-Men:

Cyclops - Leader
Jean Grey, Prof X - Telepath
Beast - Scientist
Iceman - probably Adventurer is best

EDIT: and for others, some ideas:

Magneto - Ruler/King
Toad - Minion
Wolverine - Weapon X
Mystique - Assassin
Pyro - Journalist, or Criminal
Juggernaut - Bully, Brute

[IAmBatman]

But since Glyphs are just as optional and some add just as much of a new twist (just in a more familiar package) that might not be such a big deal ...

This was precisely why I suggested the glyph approach, even though I personally like the Team Cord with a cost method better.

Yeah, except your suggested glyph approach wasn't really a glyph at all beyond physically using glyphs. They wouldn't operate anything like glyphs, so it'd still be a new addition.
Not to mention a glyph that you just got to add to your team in a non-scenario battle that had no point cost associated to it and that you didn't have to physically "hold" on the map would be completely unfair to the opposing player. :-P
No, I say that we go for the Team cards and we save X-Men themed glyphs for the X-Men wave if we want to do those. (though let's not do Glyphs every wave just because we can - I'm hoping the waves will be figure heavy and very light everything else or we might as well just keep pumping out master sets!). :-P
And, yeah, Hahma, your initial reaction is much the same as mine.

[GreyOwl]

Yeah, except your suggested glyph approach wasn't really a glyph at all beyond physically using glyphs. They wouldn't operate anything like glyphs, so it'd still be a new addition.
Not to mention a glyph that you just got to add to your team in a non-scenario battle that had no point cost associated to it and that you didn't have to physically "hold" on the map would be completely unfair to the opposing player. :-P

You're leaving out the most important part - I did say it was a half-baked idea, too. 8)

[IAmBatman]

Heh. :-P And I do understand the attempt, even if I was poking pretty hard at the parts that were still raw ...
If we can finish this figure selection, I think we can put the Team Card/Glyph swap up to a vote and then we can get some figure assignments going!

[A3n]

I was planning to do team cards once I had all my figures done, so this would save me doing X-men ones:twisted:. My idea was that there would be a cost with the cards (some would even be negative) & different stipulations like how many need to be draughted from a list of all the possibles for that team. So there would be characters that would appear on different team cards. Then have some sort of ability/ies that would be applicable to the whole team. Some things I was kicking around here were:

If one member of the team is targeted for an attack you may swap positions with another team member within 2 spaces of the targeted figure & the swapped figure is now the targeted defending figure.
When attacking with one team member, if there is another team member adjacent add 2 dice to your attack.
All members may move an additional 2 spaces at any point before, during or after their turn.
Add 8 to your initiative roll.Things like that to really change how they are played together.

Just ideas at this stage as it will be a long time before I am ready to do these team cards so feel free to use anything that you like, or not. :p

Cheers

[Spidey'tilIDie]

First off, I am Mr. Theme-over-Function, so I love the idea of Team Cards! That being said, I think it should be an optional thing and realeased as a supplement, like RtFF or FoA. Afterall, there are already four former or current members of the Avengers in the Marvel Master Set, why not produce an Avengers team card as well? Why constrain it to only Marvel? Why not a Justice League or Legion of Doom card? Why not release these with a Wave? Or one in each Wave? Just my thoughts as I read along here.

[IAmBatman]

I think the idea is that these would be established in this set and that later Team Cards could be done later.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing them done in a separate release either necessarily and bringing Glyphs back.
Anyway, as soon as we get this Beast vote resolved, the proposal thread will be open again (though we'll still need to decide on Sentinel and Civilian figures as well).
Speaking of, what are the current arguments on Sentinels big v. small for this set and on Civilians numbers and figures?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I personally think Sentinel Primes (the smaller ones) make sense for this release. People may already be shelling out a lot of money to get some of these figs, lets not make it even more straining on the old wallet.

[IAmBatman]

I agree - we can go common hero Sentinel in a future large figure expansion for the big guys.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

As long as this common hero is pretty darn hard to get that one wound on.

[IAmBatman]

I envision a special power where you don't destroy the Sentinel unless it takes a hit bad enough to cause 2-3 wounds on a figure with more than one life. So he still goes down in one attack, it's just that much harder to get the right attack on him.
And, honestly, that seems thematic. Most of the time when the X-Men attack Sentinels they can't damage it, can't damage it, then get in just the right hit to destroy it.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Agreed. This is basically what I thought too.

[GreyOwl]

I agree - we can go common hero Sentinel in a future large figure expansion for the big guys.

The question this brings up is whether back when we voted to include Sentinels in this set, was everyone was clear it wouldn't be the big ones? I know I wasn't, because I didn't even know about the smaller ones back then. Since we're trying to focus on the most iconic versions of characters, I really don't see a point in doing the smaller ones at all. I say we either do the big ones, or pick a different figure entirely, because the small ones aren't well-known. Even most of us had never heard them until recently.

People may already be shelling out a lot of money to get some of these figs, lets not make it even more straining on the old wallet.

I still think we shouldn't worry about this at all. If someone doesn't want to pay for the figure, they can always proxy with something else. I really don't think most people are going to spend the time, effort and money to get all of the specific figures we pick anyway. They'll most likely buy the version that's cheapest, most readily available, or use the one they already have.

[Cavalier]

People may already be shelling out a lot of money to get some of these figs, lets not make it even more straining on the old wallet.

I still think we shouldn't worry about this at all. If someone doesn't want to pay for the figure, they can always proxy with something else. I really don't think most people are going to spend the time, effort and money to get all of the specific figures we pick anyway. They'll most likely buy the version that's cheapest, most readily available, or use the one they already have.
But I see there being quite a difference between 'Beast a or b' and 'Big Sentinels or Small Sentinels'.

[GreyOwl]

I didn't mean that people could proxy the big Sentinel with the small one. I meant they could proxy the big Sentinel with a different big figure. I don't see the point in making the smaller Sentinel at all, at this point, because most people don't know anything about them and it's not what people think when you say "Sentinel".

[Balantai]

Here's my vision of what a future Team Card might look like:

X-Men: The First Movie

Members: Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm, Jean Grey, Rogue

Leadership: Instead of taking a turn with Cyclops, you may take a turn with any other Member you control. You may not take a turn with Wolverine in this manner.

Constant Bickering: After revealing an Order Marker on either Cyclops or Wolverine's cards, if they are within 3 clear sight spaces of each other, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1 - 5, your turn immediately ends. If you roll 6 or higher, continue normally.

Love Hurts: At the end of any turn in which Jean Grey is destroyed, place one Wound Marker on both Cyclops and Wolverine's cards. You may then take an immediate turn with either Cyclops or Wolverine.

Protector: If Rogue is targeted with a normal attack and is adjacent to Wolverine, you may instead direct the attack at Wolverine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a great way to add theme to characters without forcing a specific time period or specific representation onto the card.

[Balantai]

I agree - we can go common hero Sentinel in a future large figure expansion for the big guys.

The question this brings up is whether back when we voted to include Sentinels in this set, was everyone was clear it wouldn't be the big ones? I know I wasn't, because I didn't even know about the smaller ones back then. Since we're trying to focus on the most iconic versions of characters, I really don't see a point in doing the smaller ones at all. I say we either do the big ones, or pick a different figure entirely, because the small ones aren't well-known. Even most of us had never heard them until recently.

I agree with GreyOwl yet again. If we do not do the big Sentinels, I think we should consider doing a different squad. Maybe something military related. The X-Men fight the military on occasion.

[jschild]

Should you really be basing any of the characters powers from the movies?

[Balantai]

Should you really be basing any of the characters powers from the movies?

That's actually my entire point, jschild. If we use Team Cards, we do not have to base the cards off of the movies, cartoons, 80s comics, 90s comics, Ultimate X-Men, etc. We can create the most iconic version of the characters and use Team Cards to add additional flavor.

[Hahma]

I agree - we can go common hero Sentinel in a future large figure expansion for the big guys.

The question this brings up is whether back when we voted to include Sentinels in this set, was everyone was clear it wouldn't be the big ones? I know I wasn't, because I didn't even know about the smaller ones back then. Since we're trying to focus on the most iconic versions of characters, I really don't see a point in doing the smaller ones at all. I say we either do the big ones, or pick a different figure entirely, because the small ones aren't well-known. Even most of us had never heard them until recently.

People may already be shelling out a lot of money to get some of these figs, lets not make it even more straining on the old wallet.

I still think we shouldn't worry about this at all. If someone doesn't want to pay for the figure, they can always proxy with something else. I really don't think most people are going to spend the time, effort and money to get all of the specific figures we pick anyway. They'll most likely buy the version that's cheapest, most readily available, or use the one they already have.


I wasn't part of the original figure vote in for this set, so I don't know the reasoning for the small Sentinel's being voted in. I just have learned about them recently here.

So I might have to agree with GreyOwl in that these small Sentinels aren't near being iconic or familiar for people to get into. When I think Sentinel, I think of the big ones. Again, I don't have one, but I would proxy Jotun for one if need be, I don't even know how big the Clix versions of Sentinels are. The problem though is that a scenario was written for multiple Sentinels, who's going to have multiple big Sentinels or even mutliple Jotuns to proxy?

So if we'd go with Sentinel's for this set, perhaps it should be the big ones with it kept in mind that any scenario for the set including the Sentinels would be written for only one Sentinel. Or perhaps go with a different squad altogether. :reapershrug:

[Cavalier]

<snip>
So I might have to agree with GreyOwl in that these small Sentinels aren't near being iconic or familiar for people to get into. When I think Sentinel, I think of the big ones. Again, I don't have one, but I would proxy Jotun for one if need be, I don't even know how big the Clix versions of Sentinels are. The problem though is that a scenario was written for multiple Sentinels, who's going to have multiple big Sentinels or even mutliple Jotuns to proxy?

So if we'd go with Sentinel's for this set, perhaps it should be the big ones with it kept in mind that any scenario for the set including the Sentinels would be written for only one Sentinel. Or perhaps go with a different squad altogether. :reapershrug:
Much bigger than Jotun:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/LilNewbie/HeroScape/100_1762.jpg

[IAmBatman]

Well, we haven't voted on Sentinels big or small yet, so it's still open for this set.
However, we would need a unanimous vote to oust Sentinels from this set, and I'd prefer small Sentinels to no Sentinels at all, honestly. I think there's value to be had from having Sentinels as a smaller horde and having Sentinels as the bigger powerhouses (common heroes?) both.

[IAmBatman]

Speaking of voting - I'm going to need a clarification on how many Team Up cards are being proposed and whether they'll replace some or all of the Glyphs before I'll vote and lock us into any amount of playtesting. :-P

[Balantai]

Speaking of voting - I'm going to need a clarification on how many Team Up cards are being proposed and whether they'll replace some or all of the Glyphs before I'll vote and lock us into any amount of playtesting. :-P

I deleted my proposal due to a need for further discussion.

Personally, I only think we need one Team Card for this set: The Original X-Men.

I don't think the Brotherhood require a team card since our 5 Brotherhood figures don't incorporate any incaration of the team. A Team Card for the Brotherhood makes more sense to me if released in a future X-Men Wave. Then we could incoporate all the necessary Brotherhood figures. Right now, they're just random members.

As far as replacing glyphs, without knowing what we would be including on a Team Card, I can't definitively state we wouldn't have playtesting capabilities for Glyphs and Team Cards.

[IAmBatman]

My feeling is that 1 Team Card would require a time investment roughly equal to 4 Glyphs. But, I'm just spitballing here because it's hard to know until we actually do it.
It would seem kind of weird to go through the trouble of introducing Team Cards and only having one in the set though - that's the kind of thing that makes me think maybe it should be a separate additional rules release done under the C3G banner that involves a number of teams rather than something tied to this Master Set.

[wriggz]

Is your team card going to have specific units on it, or could you have any 4~5 mutants form your personal X-men?

I like the Second Option much more.

[IAmBatman]

I do too, honestly, but people pushing for Team Cards seem more interested in specific character synergies than Mutant synergies ...

[Balantai]

Is your team card going to have specific units on it, or could you have any 4~5 mutants form your personal X-men?

I like the Second Option much more.

In my opinion, that stipulation would exist directly on the card. For instance, on the Original X-Men Team Card, it might state: In order to draft this team card, you must have at least any 3 members on your team.

[Balantai]

I do too, honestly, but people pushing for Team Cards seem more interested in specific character synergies than Mutant synergies ...

Using the species Mutant is a band-aid fix to a much larger problem. What about Avengers, Defenders, Justice League, Sinister Syndicate, X-Force, etc.?

[IAmBatman]

I guess I don't classify it as a "problem" at all ... :-P And Avengers, Defenders, Justice League, etc.? I think Captain America's Tactician power does a pretty good job, for instance.

[Balantai]

My feeling is that 1 Team Card would require a time investment roughly equal to 4 Glyphs. But, I'm just spitballing here because it's hard to know until we actually do it.
It would seem kind of weird to go through the trouble of introducing Team Cards and only having one in the set though - that's the kind of thing that makes me think maybe it should be a separate additional rules release done under the C3G banner that involves a number of teams rather than something tied to this Master Set.

I actually agree and disagree with you. Having only one Team Card does seem a bit odd, but releasing the new rule is best fit for a Master Set. To me, better Brotherhood teams would be:

First Incarnation of the Brotherhood of Mutants:
Magneto
Quicksilver
Scarlet Witch
Toad
Mastermind

Second Incarnation of the Brotherhood of Mutants:
Mystique
Avalanche
Pryo
Blob
Destiny
Rogue

Brotherhood from the first X-Men movie:
Magneto
Mystique
Sabertooth
Toad

[Balantai]

I guess I don't classify it as a "problem" at all ... :-P And Avengers, Defenders, Justice League, etc.? I think Captain America's Tactician power does a pretty good job, for instance.

Using that logic, why even limit synergies to Mutants?

[wriggz]

I am a fairly avid Comic Nerd, and I wouldn't put the avenger's in the same class as the x-men or Fantastic four. Iron man fights alongside Thor, not with Thor. Captain America Inspires EVERYONE (even canadains)!

The X-men fight together as a unit. When they are together they do things differntly than alone. This is even more true with Fantastic four.

I really don't think Superman Cares if Batman is there or not. Infact I think you got the team thing down on his card with the heroic power. The Justice league doesn't need the help of a team card, While I think it makes sense with the X-men.

[GreyOwl]

Maybe we need to step back and reconsider our choices. If we want to do team cards, and we want to have two, then maybe we should pick different villains that fit into the Brotherhood. We don't want to let our process stifle the kind of set we want to create, just because we didn't foresee this months ago when we picked our figures.

[Balantai]

I am a fairly avid Comic Nerd, and I wouldn't put the avenger's in the same class as the x-men or Fantastic four. Iron man fights alongside Thor, not with Thor. Captain America Inspires EVERYONE (even canadains)!

I definitely agree with you regarding the Avengers. If you're a Marvel hero, you've probably been an Avenger at some point.

But what if we wanted to take Capt. America, Iron Man, Giant Man, Wasp and Thor and make an Ultimate Avengers Team Card. Then we wouldn't need to make all new figures for them. We could incorporate they're personalities and styles directly into the Team Cards since their core abilities are already represented on their cards.

[Balantai]

Maybe we need to step back and reconsider our choices. If we want to do team cards, and we want to have two, then maybe we should pick different villains that fit into the Brotherhood. We don't want to let our process stifle the kind of set we want to create, just because we didn't foresee this months ago when we picked our figures.

I would be okay with changing out Brotherhood villians to Magneto, Toad, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Mastermind, but I think that might be a hard sell to the rest of our C3G counterparts. :D

[GreyOwl]

Well if they don't want to change, we'll just go off and start our own C3G! Long live C4G!!

Oh okay, just kidding...:)

[IAmBatman]

I guess I don't classify it as a "problem" at all ... :-P And Avengers, Defenders, Justice League, etc.? I think Captain America's Tactician power does a pretty good job, for instance.

Using that logic, why even limit synergies to Mutants?

I know you're going for Devil's Advocate and a rhetorical question here, but you just might be convincing me that even Mutant synergies aren't needed ... :-P
That said, the distinction would be that the X-Men have had any number of Mutants on their team over the years and the Avengers have had any number of humans and Mutants and gods and aliens, etc., on their team over the years.

I am a fairly avid Comic Nerd, and I wouldn't put the avenger's in the same class as the x-men or Fantastic four. Iron man fights alongside Thor, not with Thor. Captain America Inspires EVERYONE (even canadains)!

The X-men fight together as a unit. When they are together they do things differntly than alone. This is even more true with Fantastic four.

I really don't think Superman Cares if Batman is there or not. Infact I think you got the team thing down on his card with the heroic power. The Justice league doesn't need the help of a team card, While I think it makes sense with the X-men.

I do agree that the X-Men and Fantastic Four function more as teams. That said, one of those teams has four members and one has had 100s. (And, yes, I know there have been alternate versions of the Fantastic Four, but there's still only one, true version).

Maybe we need to step back and reconsider our choices. If we want to do team cards, and we want to have two, then maybe we should pick different villains that fit into the Brotherhood. We don't want to let our process stifle the kind of set we want to create, just because we didn't foresee this months ago when we picked our figures.

I guess it depends on what exactly we're trying to accomplish with the Team Cards. Are we trying to accomplish specific character level interactions or are we trying to accomplish a system that lets me pick five heroes, decide they're my X-Men team, and then draft a card that lets them act much more like a team. Given the shifting membership of the team over the years as well as a desire for flexibility in army building to keep this game interesting and fresh, I really prefer the second option to the first. But it seems that GreyOwl and Balantai are all over the first. I'd love to hear from anyone else to see if there's even any excitement among heroes for this idea past GreyOwl and Balantai ...

[IAmBatman]

Well if they don't want to change, we'll just go off and start our own C3G! Long live C4G!!

Oh okay, just kidding...:)

Marvel Civil War already? :-P This is why we should just stick to DC ...

[GreyOwl]

Well if they don't want to change, we'll just go off and start our own C3G! Long live C4G!!

Oh okay, just kidding...:)

Marvel Civil War already? :-P This is why we should just stick to DC ...

I won't register, no matter what!

[Balantai]

Well if they don't want to change, we'll just go off and start our own C3G! Long live C4G!!

Oh okay, just kidding...:)

Marvel Civil War already? :-P This is why we should just stick to DC ...

I won't register, no matter what!

And if Spidey initially sides with you, odds are, he'll see your evil ways and jump to our side.

[IAmBatman]

I'm pretty sure Spidey will initially side with you on something as super themed up as this. :-P

[wriggz]

Well if they don't want to change, we'll just go off and start our own C3G! Long live C4G!!

Oh okay, just kidding...:)

Marvel Civil War already? :-P This is why we should just stick to DC ...

I won't register, no matter what!

I find it odd that you will not register, but want to list specific team members on your card. To me wolverine, night cawler, rouge, gambit, and colossus are X-men. If I had one form and "offical" set and could not use it with the "official" team card I would be very confussed and somewhat annoyed.