Debunking the New Player Import theory?

[Just_a_Bill]

Tonight in another thread somebody was saying for the millionth time how the new master set is supposed to bring D&D players into the game, which I've always thought was an unlikely scenario. By the time I clicked Submit on my response, the topic had been closed; so I decided to start a new thread. (I did consider whether this actually belongs in the general discussion forum, but as all the other D&D-scape threads seem to be in News, who am I to break the convention?)

Anyway, I don't think D&D Heroscape is really going to (or even intended to) drag many D&D players into "our" game. Think about it from the reverse perspective:

Suppose they had wanted to drag Heroscape players into D&D, so they make a special 'Scape-themed D&D starter that is not in any way compatible with Heroscape and has none of its game mechanics, but does include a few 'Scape character sculpts, albeit on different bases and with altered paint jobs.

But rather than including central characters you would recognize and might care about emotionally like Drake, Raelin, and Q10, or rare hard-to-get characters with perceived ownership value like the GenCon promos, they instead put in figures like Krav Maga agent #3, Tagawa Samurai Archer #1, one of the Zettians, etc. -- but they make them unique characters and give them new names you've never heard of, plus different gameplay functions (and foreign terminology) compared to what you're used to.

If you are a non-D&D player, think about how effective this product would be in making you want to spend $40 to start playing that game. (Those of you who already play both games, please keep in mind that this hypothetical question isn't relevant to you, as you are not the alleged target audience.)

When I picture the WotC development team debating the pros and cons of this product, I can't imagine anyone seriously asserting that this would be an effective way to convert a significant number of D&D players. Seems naïve.

But I can imagine a majority agreeing that it's a good way to make a new Heroscape master set without the expense of new sculpting, new molds, and new paint templates, as well as a reasonable attempt to leverage D&D brand equity among the hobby-market retailers and distributors in order to get the product onto FLGS shelves.

So, in the interest of testing my theory, does anybody want to make a good case for why this product will be compelling to D&D players who've never played 'Scape before? In essence, to demonstrate why those players would care to invest 40 bucks in a totally new game system that gives them (for example) the 99-cent uncommon Dwarf Warsword figure with different paint on a non-D&D base, renamed Ambershard or whatever to make it unique?

[Therrian]

I don't think your question/thoughts can be answered yet...because I think it all depends on how much WOTC markets this product as it nears release.

If it gets little fanfare and attention from the WOTC Marketing folks, then I agree, I don't see a major influx of DND players.

However, if they give the product some push, and market it hard to the gaming community as a whole, then I think you will likely see a significant number of folks pick up the new product...whether they stay long term or not is debatable, but if there is one thing that the geek community (and I am not calling it, myself included, that in a negative way) loves is new stuff.

So...it all comes down to the push. I have yet to see anything about this product on the WOTC site...and the HS Webpage is still sitting with cobwebs forming...so things don't look too promising at the moment.

[Just_a_Bill]

So...it all comes down to the push.
So, going back to my reverse-perspective scenario, are you saying the more marketing effort put into my hypothetical product designed to suck you into Dungeons & Dragons, the more likely you would be to want it and purchase it?

[Grungebob]

WOTC have been very involved in D&D Heroscape. They want their D&D fans to pleased with the product. They are very particular about the details of how the figures work and we have preserved as much of the D&D flavor and function as possible at WOTC's request. Some of the new features in D&D scape are the direct result of WOTC's desires to fulfill D&D fans expectations.

So I will say that the original poster's assertion that they are not attempting to get new players involved in Heroscape is false.

[IAmBatman]

IMO, there's no way to possibly measure the new player impact that DnD Heroscape will or won't have until, at the very least, the set is, you know ... released. :-P

[Robotech Master]

Responses from D&D players to the question of "Will you guys pick this (D&D Heroscape) up when it comes out?" include:

"Why would we? It's a well known fact that D&D mini are used by Pen & paper players and there is no market for a combat based mini game."

and

"I played Heroscape once - it was fun, but I wasn't into the idea of collecting terrain as well as figures."

[Therrian]

So...it all comes down to the push.
So, going back to my reverse-perspective scenario, are you saying the more marketing effort put into my hypothetical product designed to suck you into Dungeons & Dragons, the more likely you would be to want it and purchase it?

It's an interesting question, but on the whole I would have to say no.

I really do think that DND gamers are a different breed then a significant chunk of scapers...the negative response to DND being attached to their game provides one indicator of this. I don't see a ton of scapers moving into the Roleplaying world...because most of the scapers that were interested in roleplaying are probably current or ex DND players anyways. I don't see heroscape as a gateway product into the RPG world...or even the mini-wargame world. I think it appeals in many ways to folks that don't have the energy or drive to play those types of games.

However, a big chunk of DND players are gamers in general, and would probably enjoy giving another game a try if it was marketed to them correctly. I do think you will see people also get into it as a terrain add-on to their DND games.

Look at it like this...much of the scape community to me is like the 'Madden' video game community down in the states. You have a crapload of people that love to play Madden...but many of them are not avid video game players outside of that. The DND community is like the 'gamer' community in general. They play hardcore games, but also buy 'Madden' because of it both being a good game and because it is marketed as something they 'need' to have. No matter how well you market 'Halo'...a big chunk of the 'Madden' community will not have any interest...they only care about Madden.

Ok...maybe that was more confusing, lol...but I think you get my point :D

[Grungebob]

Responses from D&D players to the question of "Will you guys pick this (D&D Heroscape) up when it comes out?" include:

"Why would we? It's a well known fact that D&D mini are used by Pen & paper players and there is no market for a combat based mini game."

and

"I played Heroscape once - it was fun, but I wasn't into the idea of collecting terrain as well as figures."Odd... When I was at Gencon, most D&D players were VERY excited about this product.

[Robotech Master]

It always *seems* like there's a huge crowd that should be excited about it.

Never quite understood it myself, but I guess the numbers just don't add up. WOTC did everything in their power to refresh the Miniatures game and please people, but ended up having to cut it off after only 3 expansions, canceling the future releases and dropping support for the game. Now they only make miniatures for the pen and pencil hardcore crowd, with no battle game stats or rules attached.

LOTS of people complained. LOTS of people seemed unhappy. LOTS of people managed to band together to have the guild take over stat development to keep the game alive. But apparently, LOTS of us just didn't translated to lots of purchases (or at least, what they wanted/needed).

[Grungebob]

A non collectible D&D product on Walmart shelves carries far more earning potential than a blind purchase hobby market item like D&D minis.

[joeiscool12]

A non collectible D&D product on Walmart shelves carries far more earning potential than a blind purchase hobby market item like D&D minis.

Will it be on Walmart shelves though? I was surprised when my Walmart started stocking expansions again this month, but mine (like most) is having plenty of trouble moving the Marvel set. Do you think they would want to add the D&D pack -- something they may perceive to have an even smaller fanbase -- to those?

[Grungebob]

Will it be on Walmart shelves though? That would be a whole other topic. The original poster is asserting that D&D Heroscape has not been created with the intention of selling to current D&D enthusiasts.

[pixlepix]

Responses from D&D players to the question of "Will you guys pick this (D&D Heroscape) up when it comes out?" include:

"Why would we? It's a well known fact that D&D mini are used by Pen & paper players and there is no market for a combat based mini game."

and

"I played Heroscape once - it was fun, but I wasn't into the idea of collecting terrain as well as figures."Odd... When I was at Gencon, most D&D players were VERY excited about this product.
This is probibally because the DND players that come to GenCon are the ones who would like this game. As for converting HS players to DND:
1 all of us know about DND
2 if they wanted to do that, they would have made heroscape themed DND
Just my:2cents:

[Just_a_Bill]

WOTC have been very involved in D&D Heroscape. They want their D&D fans to pleased with the product. They are very particular about the details of how the figures work and we have preserved as much of the D&D flavor and function as possible at WOTC's request. Some of the new features in D&D scape are the direct result of WOTC's desires to fulfill D&D fans expectations.
If that's the case — if there are numerous as-yet-undisclosed hooks built into the product specifically designed to make D&D players feel they must play Heroscape — then my theory will prove bankrupt. And that would be a good thing. Based on what we know about the product today, I just couldn't imagine why a D&D player would really care about it, so the repeated expectation of player influx seemed to be based more on hope than evidence. But as Grungebob points out, all the evidence is not yet in, so my theorizing is probably just as premature as the influx expectation.

Therrian also makes a good point that, in general, D&D players are probably more inclined to try a mass-market tabletop game than Heroscape players are to try a core RPG, so the reverse hypothesis is probably of only limited value. Time will tell.

[Jexik]

As Therrian said, I think the D&D license might end up working better than Marvel at getting new players.

Sure, we're all geeks, but I think that the D&D tabletop geeks are more likely to play other board games than the guys who collect comic books. D&D is a recognized name in games. It's like the Nike of polyhedra.

[Hogg]

WotCPB said the price point will be closer to $30.

The only problem I see with drawing in DnD players in is the extensive amount of products already avaliable in HS. If they were to make HS MtG to try to get me (an HS player) into MtG I would balk because of the already existant, non HS related, back catalog of releases I would feel I need to catch up on. The same situation exists for potential DnD converts and unless they really latch on to the game I don't think they would be very likely to buy 10+ old waves of non DnD releases.

[IAmBatman]

As Therrian said, I think the D&D license might end up working better than Marvel at getting new players.

That actually would be no small potatoes. Marvel brought a good number of people to this game as can be seen by the numbers of people it brought to this site specifically. It was really a nice size to be a gateway game because with 10 figures only and limited terrain people quickly found themselves wanting additions. With none to be found in the Marvel realm, people went Valhallascape.

[lazites]

D&D scape has dragged 5 friends on mine into it already O_o

[clancampbell]

WOTC have been very involved in D&D Heroscape. They want their D&D fans to pleased with the product. They are very particular about the details of how the figures work and we have preserved as much of the D&D flavor and function as possible at WOTC's request. Some of the new features in D&D scape are the direct result of WOTC's desires to fulfill D&D fans expectations.

I've long said that DnD heroscape is WoTC's attempt to make heroscape look and feel more like their "goldenchild" (DnD).

That being said, I imagine there is some feeling that this will draw some of the DnD players in. Weather WoTC has gone about it the right way or not, will remain to be seen.

Not picking on GB here, just taking the above statement for what it is. I see alot of care and concern for DnD and its fanbase on the part of WoTC in that statement. Where is this same care and concern for Heroscape and its fanbase? Is just the fact we're getting Heroscape at all, in whatever form, supposed to be good enough?

[Just_a_Bill]

D&D scape has dragged 5 friends on mine into it already O_o
+Rep for one of the most encouraging fact-based statements I've seen yet.

[Grungebob]

WOTC have been very involved in D&D Heroscape. They want their D&D fans to pleased with the product. They are very particular about the details of how the figures work and we have preserved as much of the D&D flavor and function as possible at WOTC's request. Some of the new features in D&D scape are the direct result of WOTC's desires to fulfill D&D fans expectations.

I've long said that DnD heroscape is WoTC's attempt to make heroscape look and feel more like their "goldenchild" (DnD).

That being said, I imagine there is some feeling that this will draw some of the DnD players in. Weather WoTC has gone about it the right way or not, will remain to be seen.

Not picking on GB here, just taking the above statement for what it is. I see alot of care and concern for DnD and its fanbase on the part of WoTC in that statement. Where is this same care and concern for Heroscape and its fanbase? Is just the fact we're getting Heroscape at all, in whatever form, supposed to be good enough?I understand why you feel this way, but I want you and others to know that your huge assumptions about WOTC's approach and motives are just wrong.

[Jexik]

Just because things are being designed to be consistent with D&D functionality, that doesn't necessarily mean that these figures are inconsistent with the 'scape we know. The whole "drow fight for Utgar" thing implies that they'll be faithful to both.

[IAmBatman]

Huge assumptions wrong? When does that ever happen? :-P

[Therrian]

WOTC have been very involved in D&D Heroscape. They want their D&D fans to pleased with the product. They are very particular about the details of how the figures work and we have preserved as much of the D&D flavor and function as possible at WOTC's request. Some of the new features in D&D scape are the direct result of WOTC's desires to fulfill D&D fans expectations.

I've long said that DnD heroscape is WoTC's attempt to make heroscape look and feel more like their "goldenchild" (DnD).

That being said, I imagine there is some feeling that this will draw some of the DnD players in. Weather WoTC has gone about it the right way or not, will remain to be seen.

Not picking on GB here, just taking the above statement for what it is. I see alot of care and concern for DnD and its fanbase on the part of WoTC in that statement. Where is this same care and concern for Heroscape and its fanbase? Is just the fact we're getting Heroscape at all, in whatever form, supposed to be good enough?I understand why you feel this way, but I want you and others to know that your huge assumptions about WOTC's approach and motives are just wrong.

Hey GB

For those on the outside looking in there is really no indication, beyond what you and a few others have said, that many of the fears and concerns of the community are not real/true.

I know that people have said that 'this' is the scape website, but the fact that the official, WOTC site hasn't been updated in almost 2 years is not a good sign. The fact that there is little to no advertisement of this product anywhere is not a good sign.

I am in no way disagreeing with you about how they feel about the product/fanbase, but WOTC could go along way towards quelling those concerns by doing a few small things...the fact that they haven't is once again not a good sign.

For a significant chunk of the world...perception is reality.

[Rÿchean]

Perception is also often tainted by incorrect assumptions and emotions. Two things that are certainly not in short supply around here.

Some uneasiness is to be expected but please do not let it get the better of you.

The D&D ‘scape product is first and foremost a Heroscape product. It is yet another example or testament to the greatness that is Heroscape. The game lives and breathes some 5 years later and is strong enough to take on the flavor and prestige of a game as renowned as D&D.

The negatives that are prevalent are natural but they are also rooted in fear and pride for the game of Heroscape itself which is undertandable.

However, D&D will not taint or destroy Heroscape. If anything it is showcasing just how strong Heroscape is and just how versatile it can be. It is an exciting new twist and its success only furthers the legacy of Heroscape and it's continued existence as a viable, vibrant, and relevant gaming system.

[Grungebob]

WOTC have been very involved in D&D Heroscape. They want their D&D fans to pleased with the product. They are very particular about the details of how the figures work and we have preserved as much of the D&D flavor and function as possible at WOTC's request. Some of the new features in D&D scape are the direct result of WOTC's desires to fulfill D&D fans expectations.

I've long said that DnD heroscape is WoTC's attempt to make heroscape look and feel more like their "goldenchild" (DnD).

That being said, I imagine there is some feeling that this will draw some of the DnD players in. Weather WoTC has gone about it the right way or not, will remain to be seen.

Not picking on GB here, just taking the above statement for what it is. I see alot of care and concern for DnD and its fanbase on the part of WoTC in that statement. Where is this same care and concern for Heroscape and its fanbase? Is just the fact we're getting Heroscape at all, in whatever form, supposed to be good enough?I understand why you feel this way, but I want you and others to know that your huge assumptions about WOTC's approach and motives are just wrong.

Hey GB

For those on the outside looking in there is really no indication, beyond what you and a few others have said, that many of the fears and concerns of the community are not real/true.

I know that people have said that 'this' is the scape website, but the fact that the official, WOTC site hasn't been updated in almost 2 years is not a good sign. The fact that there is little to no advertisement of this product anywhere is not a good sign.

I am in no way disagreeing with you about how they feel about the product/fanbase, but WOTC could go along way towards quelling those concerns by doing a few small things...the fact that they haven't is once again not a good sign.

For a significant chunk of the world...perception is reality.I completely understand why folks feel the way they do. I just want them to know that their assumptions are not always truth, and that companies have many reasons for doing what they do and a lot of their decisions are made for reasons other than you think. In the end, the actual work is done by guys like you and me, doing the best we can to create something that has value to as many people as possible, all the time meeting the demands of a constantly shifting marketplace.

[nyys]

Also consider that even though there's not whole lot of advertising done with the Scape brand, we still see a steady steam of new players join the site (and as we all know Scapers is a very small percentage of the overall that buy the game). So people are finding the game, its just in other ways.

Perhaps WotC found that word of mouth is sufficient to keep the game alive along with making a spash at GenCon each year (not counting the transition time).

:2cents:

[lazites]

I also just thought of something, because I'm going to be starting up some heroscape action at my local comic shop (the owner is already for it). Once we break the game out people are bound too look at it and say "OMGWTFBBQ!?"

D&D is some of their highest selling stuff, so I'm sure people will eat it up if I can get the product out to the open. (yes I'm trying to advertise) It's one thing to look at a game and say "do I wanna buy this?" It's another to play it first and then say %&@# YEAH!!!

[Agent Minivann]

Something to consider. I think a big part of the decision to put out the D&D set was to put new product on the shelves.

RotV is a great set, but it is probably not that big of a money maker in the current economic environment. Sure they already have all the molds etc in place to do it, but the materials and shipping are going to be higher. The MSRP is also higher on RotV, so gamers with cash flow concerns are going to be a little less likely to cough up the extra $10 bucks for the RotV set.

The D&D set is going to be cheaper to produce (materials and shipping) as well as cheaper for the consumer. It will fit in the space on the shelf that the Marvel set now occupies, so it already has some real estate to move into. And to top it all off it is new product. Put RotV back on the shelf at Walmart, and the likely buyers are going to be new consumers. The D&D set will have existing customers buying it as well as new ones. That right there is a big reason to make the new set. New stuff is what is going to keep Heroscape alive (in stores at least) for years. If there is some sort of tie-in to another product line, it is just common sense that the existing customers for the other product line were more than an after thought on a tacked-on-at-the-last-minute theme.

Summary, D&D was done to put new product on the shelves. D&D was also done to hopefully pull in some existing D&D players who are not current Heroscape players. While the D&D players are not the primary reason for the new set, they are a reason. Even if a small percentage of the D&D only players take the plunge, it will be a good thing for Heroscape. It will go a long way towards getting new non-D&D classic Heroscape on the shelves.

As an aside, I think that the move to the Castle/Marvel box size is a huge step in the right direction. If the new stuff can get consolidated into boxes that size it will really help keep it on the shelves at Walmart, and back on the shelves at Toys R Us and Target. Otherwise they have to commit shelf space to an RotV sized box, a Castle/Marvel sized box, the terrain expansions, and the boosters. Move it all to the one size and they just need to commit the boosters and the one box size and they can have a "full" selection. The older sets can continue to exist at online retailers where they don't need to be stored in a way that customers can see on a shelf.

[Just_a_Bill]

Minivann's shelf space analysis reminds me to ask: have "they" (Hasbro or WotC) ever considered punching a hole in the small expansions so they can hang on a peg? When I buy boosters at retail, they always seem like an awkward stepchild on the game shelf, are typically messed up, knocked over, and hidden behind other games, and often have to be spied out in spaces other than where they were supposed to go.

I've even seen a Walmart or two stock them on the action figure aisle, which always made me wonder if that placement would make more intuitive sense to a Scape-neophyte shopper. Heck, maybe a few thousand kids would buy them thinking they are action figures, then learn when they get home there is a whole game that goes with these cool little knights and monsters.

Not to mention that peggability would allow them to be stocked right with the CCGs and Star Wars miniatures. (The downside would be physical separation from the boxed Scape SKUs, but I'd guess that placement in two locations probably generates more sales than it loses.)

[lazites]

WTF, why didn't I ever think of that. They would be perfect for hanging on walls!

[Agent Minivann]

I think the punched booster idea would really have a pay off in the FLGS. I think the physical separation from the boardgames would really hurt at the big box stores.

[lazites]

Mhm, but I had small specialty shops in mind, where the boosters would only be 2 skips and a hop away from the sets.

[Grungebob]

Something to consider. I think a big part of the decision to put out the D&D set was to put new product on the shelves.

RotV is a great set, but it is probably not that big of a money maker in the current economic environment. Sure they already have all the molds etc in place to do it, but the materials and shipping are going to be higher. The MSRP is also higher on RotV, so gamers with cash flow concerns are going to be a little less likely to cough up the extra $10 bucks for the RotV set.

The D&D set is going to be cheaper to produce (materials and shipping) as well as cheaper for the consumer. It will fit in the space on the shelf that the Marvel set now occupies, so it already has some real estate to move into. And to top it all off it is new product. Put RotV back on the shelf at Walmart, and the likely buyers are going to be new consumers. The D&D set will have existing customers buying it as well as new ones. That right there is a big reason to make the new set. New stuff is what is going to keep Heroscape alive (in stores at least) for years. If there is some sort of tie-in to another product line, it is just common sense that the existing customers for the other product line were more than an after thought on a tacked-on-at-the-last-minute theme.

Summary, D&D was done to put new product on the shelves. D&D was also done to hopefully pull in some existing D&D players who are not current Heroscape players. While the D&D players are not the primary reason for the new set, they are a reason. Even if a small percentage of the D&D only players take the plunge, it will be a good thing for Heroscape. It will go a long way towards getting new non-D&D classic Heroscape on the shelves.

As an aside, I think that the move to the Castle/Marvel box size is a huge step in the right direction. If the new stuff can get consolidated into boxes that size it will really help keep it on the shelves at Walmart, and back on the shelves at Toys R Us and Target. Otherwise they have to commit shelf space to an RotV sized box, a Castle/Marvel sized box, the terrain expansions, and the boosters. Move it all to the one size and they just need to commit the boosters and the one box size and they can have a "full" selection. The older sets can continue to exist at online retailers where they don't need to be stored in a way that customers can see on a shelf.Friggin awesome Minivann!

[LilNewbie]

Something to consider. I think a big part of the decision to put out the D&D set was to put new product on the shelves.

RotV is a great set, but it is probably not that big of a money maker in the current economic environment. Sure they already have all the molds etc in place to do it, but the materials and shipping are going to be higher. The MSRP is also higher on RotV, so gamers with cash flow concerns are going to be a little less likely to cough up the extra $10 bucks for the RotV set.

The D&D set is going to be cheaper to produce (materials and shipping) as well as cheaper for the consumer. It will fit in the space on the shelf that the Marvel set now occupies, so it already has some real estate to move into. And to top it all off it is new product. Put RotV back on the shelf at Walmart, and the likely buyers are going to be new consumers. The D&D set will have existing customers buying it as well as new ones. That right there is a big reason to make the new set. New stuff is what is going to keep Heroscape alive (in stores at least) for years. If there is some sort of tie-in to another product line, it is just common sense that the existing customers for the other product line were more than an after thought on a tacked-on-at-the-last-minute theme.

Summary, D&D was done to put new product on the shelves. D&D was also done to hopefully pull in some existing D&D players who are not current Heroscape players. While the D&D players are not the primary reason for the new set, they are a reason. Even if a small percentage of the D&D only players take the plunge, it will be a good thing for Heroscape. It will go a long way towards getting new non-D&D classic Heroscape on the shelves.

As an aside, I think that the move to the Castle/Marvel box size is a huge step in the right direction. If the new stuff can get consolidated into boxes that size it will really help keep it on the shelves at Walmart, and back on the shelves at Toys R Us and Target. Otherwise they have to commit shelf space to an RotV sized box, a Castle/Marvel sized box, the terrain expansions, and the boosters. Move it all to the one size and they just need to commit the boosters and the one box size and they can have a "full" selection. The older sets can continue to exist at online retailers where they don't need to be stored in a way that customers can see on a shelf.Friggin awesome Minivann!

Harumph!!

Newb.

[Onacara]

Clan...D&D may be the Prodigal Son of WOTC but MTG is their "goldenchild" as you put it.

I know info cannot be divulged by GB and the rest but I have a feeling that the D&D set will have "two-ways to play" to appear to both audiences with the scenarios included in the D&D Scape book.

[Sarpedon]

WOTC have been very involved in D&D Heroscape. They want their D&D fans to pleased with the product. They are very particular about the details of how the figures work and we have preserved as much of the D&D flavor and function as possible at WOTC's request. Some of the new features in D&D scape are the direct result of WOTC's desires to fulfill D&D fans expectations.

So I will say that the original poster's assertion that they are not attempting to get new players involved in Heroscape is false.


I wrote about this in another D&D post. I believe that there is truth to both Grungebob's post and Just a Bill's original post. Yes, WOTC, in my opinion, would love to have D&D players start buying/playing Heroscape and yes, WOTC, in my opinion is killing a second bird with the same stone by putting out this master set at a (small) fraction of the cost of a "real" masterset (ROTV, SOTM).

There's nothing wrong with doing that. There is something wrong with denying it if it is true (which it may not be).

The next point - whether or not it will work - I think only time will tell. However, Just a Bill makes a compelling case for its likely failure. I hope he's wrong.

We all appreciate the work that many (including admins at this site) have done to help support the game: they have been a great help and a big part of the game's relative success. However, Craig V. and the other designers were the real creative force that produced this brilliant game. It is unlikely that we will see the same level of devotion given it by anyone else, especially people who may not be nearly as creative.

[Hogg]

Clan...D&D may be the Prodigal Son of WOTC but MTG is their "goldenchild" as you put it.

I know info cannot be divulged by GB and the rest but I have a feeling that the D&D set will have "two-ways to play" to appear to both audiences with the scenarios included in the D&D Scape book.


I hope this is not true, because it will make me and likely many other oldschool scapers feel like baggage being dragged along in whatever direction WotC would really like to go with the game. "We could do so much with the brand if it weren't for all those followers."

I hope it works out, but I am still feeling very uneasy about the change.

[Grungebob]

We all appreciate the work that many (including admins at this site) have done to help support the game: they have been a great help and a big part of the game's relative success. However, Craig V. and the other designers were the real creative force that produced this brilliant game. It is unlikely that we will see the same level of devotion given it by anyone else, especially people who may not be nearly as creative.You'll get no argument from me there. Craig and all the others (there are a lot) are a fantastic bunch to work with. But I wouldn't knock the creativity and devotion of those still working on this. I think the amount of toil, stress, and thankless energy that we have put into this game system over the years should be enough proof of our devotion, and the creativity will be judged as usual by thousands of vocal members of this community, just as wave 9 was. Just as so many releases before that have had the very same hands at work in their creation.

[Sarpedon]

The work you, Grungebob, and other Admins have put in is admirable, but not thankless. I have seen numerous site members, myself included, who have sincerely thanked you for your work.

As far as creativity goes, however, packaging repaints, exclusives and then producing a "master set" of minis made for another game can hardly be called creative: just clever, perhaps.

I'll be the first to say that I understand that creativity is often cramped by (financial) circumstances beyond an artist's/designer's control and that we should probably be thankful that Heroscape is still around at all. However, unless the cards (since the miniatures themselves are not new) of the D&D masterset proves otherwise, I think most will agree that it's just a rehash. I sincerely hope everything I suspect is total bunk and that I will be pleasantly surprised/corrected.

[IAmBatman]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grungebob again.

The point I think that's being missed here is that the powers that be around here can't be thanked enough. That's my opinion on the matter, at least. :-)

[Onacara]

When life hands you lemons you make lemonade.

...or just squirt the juice into Life's eyes.... (That'll teach 'em)

[Grungebob]

The work you, Grungebob, and other Admins have put in is admirable, but not thankless. I have seen numerous site members, myself included, who have sincerely thanked you for your work.

As far as creativity goes, however, packaging repaints, exclusives and then producing a "master set" of minis made for another game can hardly be called creative: just clever, perhaps.

I'll be the first to say that I understand that creativity is often cramped by (financial) circumstances beyond an artist's/designer's control and that we should probably be thankful that Heroscape is still around at all. However, unless the cards (since the miniatures themselves are not new) of the D&D masterset proves otherwise, I think most will agree that it's just a rehash. I sincerely hope everything I suspect is total bunk and that I will be pleasantly surprised/corrected.When life hands you lemons you make lemonade.

[IAmBatman]

Heh, now it looks like Ona predicted the future. :-P

[smileydude560]

Ona, did you divide by zero? ;)

[truth]

Not nearly as creative? I mean I don't have a ton of stuff out to judge upon, but I did create Tul-Bak-Ra, The Marro Dividers, and Kumiko... I think they are just as creative as anything else in Heroscape is. Sure Craig was the key driving force behind the game's creation, and he is in my opinion one of the best game designers in the business, but the system is firmly established and we took it over with his blessing... its not like it just got handed off to some random uninformed designer over at Wizards. It got handed off to deeply invested and previously proven (even if the public hasn't had a chance to see what was created during our proving ground) individuals. I think it is best to wait and see what comes out before judging it prematurely... especially since you are taking a squat on the people who run the place to which you've come to take that squat.

[IAmBatman]

I find the Marro Dividers hella creative. Wave 9 was like a love letter to Heroscapers everywhere. I think anyone who would consider it a "lesser" release in any way is nuts.

[Sarpedon]

Truth,

Sorry if I (unintentionally) offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention at all. Nor was it to hijack this thread. I give it back with my apologies.

[Grungebob]

Funny, I was just having an IM discussion with another playtester. We were talking about the dynamic creativity of Colby's work on D&D Scape. Some of the funnest and most thematic Heroscape units are still as yet unreleased. It shocks me that folks don't get this. I think it is partially the secrecy, the necessity of NDA, and the way it detaches us from sharing along with the community.

[Jexik]

Sorry if I (unintentionally) offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention at all. Nor was it to hijack this thread. I give it back with my apologies.

The thread got hijacked like eight times already.

This thread is now about how cool Wave 9 is.

On a scale of 1-10, I give it a 9.

[IAmBatman]

Sorry if I (unintentionally) offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention at all. Nor was it to hijack this thread. I give it back with my apologies.

The thread got hijacked like eight times already.

This thread is now about how cool Wave 9 is.

On a scale of 1-10, I give it a 9.

9.7 at least. And when you have about 50 DnD threads and very little DnD info, threadjacking is inevitable.

[truth]

To speak to the original point of this thread. I think that Wizards full intention is to spark interest in the Heroscape miniatures system among their established D&D core, as well as among young people just starting to get interested in gaming by attaching a heavily recognized gaming brand to the product. Whether it work or not is yet to be seen, but that is totally how they pitched it to those of us who worked on it.

I don't think any of you are going to dislike the game play that will come out attached to D&D Heroscape. You can cry foul all day on the reused minis and I'm there with you, but don't knock the game play potential before you've given it it's chance or you'll come out of it with egg on your face.

[truth]

Funny, I was just having an IM discussion with another playtester. We were talking about the dynamic creativity of Colby's work on D&D Scape. Some of the funnest and most thematic Heroscape units are still as yet unreleased. It shocks me that folks don't get this. I think it is partially the secrecy, the necessity of NDA, and the way it detaches us from sharing along with the community.


Heh, thanks Jerry. Guys, I got some stuff out in Wave 9 and some of you have had a chance to play or read the rules/card for Summoner Wars, so you've had a chance to see some of my work made public, but this is in no way all about me, wait until you see some of the stuff that Jerry has worked on. He deflects and is humble, but there are few people who's ideas I respect more.

EDIT: I say the stuff he has worked on like you haven't seen any of it. Jerry has had a hand in what you see on the final heroscape card for a long time. But you'll start to see cards that are not only shaped by him, but are his from the start.

[Just_a_Bill]

Not nearly as creative? I mean I don't have a ton of stuff out to judge upon, but I did create Tul-Bak-Ra, The Marro Dividers, and Kumiko... I think they are just as creative as anything else in Heroscape is. Sure Craig was the key driving force behind the game's creation, and he is in my opinion one of the best game designers in the business, but the system is firmly established and we took it over with his blessing... its not like it just got handed off to some random uninformed designer over at Wizards. It got handed off to deeply invested and previously proven (even if the public hasn't had a chance to see what was created during our proving ground) individuals. I think it is best to wait and see what comes out before judging it prematurely... especially since you are taking a squat on the people who run the place to which you've come to take that squat.
It didn't seem like anyone was disparaging anyone else's design efforts; at least I didn't read it that way. On the contrary, the contribution of truth and the other "insiders" here is widely recognized, applauded, and appreciated.

In fact, thinking about Tul-Bak-Ra as a possible precursor gives me hope for the master set; TBR is one profoundly goofy-looking sculpt, but with awesome gameplay: he's compellingly fun and ground-breaking without being game-breaking (the sweet spot every designer shoots for IMO), and one of my favorites of that wave. If the same kind of innovation, cleverness, and fun makes a strong appearance in MS3, then most of us will quickly get over the negative aesthetics of the figures.

But I'm still interested in hearing what it is about the set that's going to hook core D&D players.

[Sherman Davies]

But I'm still interested in hearing what it is about the set that's going to hook core D&D players.

Well, much like there are some of us here who will try anything with "Heroscape" attached to it, believe me when I say that there are many D&D players with a similar problem. ;)

[truth]

Yeah, you're right Just a Bill. I went back and read Sarpedon's follow up post after his one about less creative people taking it over and I see I was being overly sensitive. He looked to be talking about all of the little things outside of just game play that make up the game, and he has every right to be skeptical about that stuff. Wizards has been quite blatant about their desire to cut the cost down on this stuff, but that isn't a lack of creativity on the project. That is something else entirely.

(Sending PM to Sarpedon)

[Therrian]

Funny, I was just having an IM discussion with another playtester. We were talking about the dynamic creativity of Colby's work on D&D Scape. Some of the funnest and most thematic Heroscape units are still as yet unreleased. It shocks me that folks don't get this. I think it is partially the secrecy, the necessity of NDA, and the way it detaches us from sharing along with the community.


This is very true GB. I work in the video game industry, so I have to opperate under the same conditions where the public that is discussing your product is working with 5% of the information most of the time and never more then 50% of the information at the best of times.

I still stand by what I said earlier though...with a few hours of a webmasters time, WOTC could give a boost to the chances that someone coming to the Heroscape website after hearing about the game doesn't leave thinking the game is no longer in production; and yes, I know this is the defacto heroscape site, but until they put the heroscapers URL on the side of the box you are still going to have a LARGE portion of your potential customers never knowing that this site exists.

I will be very interested to see how the next few months goes and what (if any) marketing the new master set will receive.

[Therrian]

[quote=truth;948263]
But I'm still interested in hearing what it is about the set that's going to hook core D&D players.

Probably nothing different then what would have hooked them if they had given it a try and enjoyed the game before.

The difference being that having the DND name attached and having it more readily available in FLGS versus the big box stores will bring the game to the attention of those people that had either never heard of it or written it off as a kids game since they sold it at TRU/Wally-Mart.

[badgermaniac]

1. I don't think anyone expects that kind of direct connection. The goal of the D&D line isn't to draw in D&D players per se, but rather simply that the theme of that game fits well into the Heroscape world, so why not build on that connection...dragons, elves, trolls, and all those fantasy elements are a good fit and since they already own the license, the crossover is logical.

2. With that being said, I think they do hope to draw some D&D type players into Heroscape, even if that isn't one of the primary goals. However, it won't be in the way represented in the original post (ie. D&D players wanting to "follow" characters to a new game), but rather because fans who like D&D are fans of the types of things that fit well with Heroscape.

In other words, if you like the stuff that makes D&D, D&D, you very well may like Heroscape and maybe that cross-branding will generate some new players.

I am guessing that folks who play Heroscape tend to like comic books, sci fi/fantasy movies (Star Wars, Matrix, LOTR), video games, etc. for instance.

You are attacking a demographic (18-35 fantasy loving males for instance) as opposed to wanting that direct transference.

[Ivellius]

Did Truth just double post?

Anyway...

I still stand by what I said earlier though...with a few hours of a webmasters time, WOTC could give a boost to the chances that someone coming to the Heroscape website after hearing about the game doesn't leave thinking the game is no longer in production; and yes, I know this is the defacto heroscape site, but until they put the heroscapers URL on the side of the box you are still going to have a LARGE portion of your potential customers never knowing that this site exists.

I will be very interested to see how the next few months goes and what (if any) marketing the new master set will receive.

To me, the lack of website updating seems fairly significant. It wouldn't take all that much (comparative) effort and would show some confidence and concern regarding this product line. The news post is from 2008, about the Wave 8 release. Do D&D products get out without news and previews and such on the official site? I think most people who are interested in online resources will find this site, but the official site's status still makes the company look uninterested in the line.

I also think we'll find out more when marketing (if any) comes out for D&D Heroscape. I'm one of those that falls on both sides of the camp--I played D&D before finding Heroscape--but I don't know how much appeal it will have to the majority of D&D players. Personally, I think a simplified combat system is a good option for RPGers (shameless thread plug: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27235), but people may be put off by the hex-based terrain and storage issues. Also, most gamers I know of like having a lot of character options, so I don't see it being an initial draw. It could be okay if we end up with some new recruits who take to customizing new characters/classes quickly, but I'm not sure how likely that is to happen.

Hopefully this new set will be able to regain shelf space for Heroscape. If Walmart stocks it, it would provide a fantastical alternative/supplement to the Marvel sets they've had. I've been wondering if this set could be carried by the major bookstore chains--all three (B&N, Borders, and BaM) have stocks of RPG material, and I've noticed an increasing trend toward figures. They also carry a handful of board games, some (like World of Warcraft and Starcraft) on the more serious side of gaming. The BaM I frequent has a fairly large section dedicated to World of Warcraft action figures and miniatures, Star Wars and the new D&D minis, and comic book action figures. RPG books take up about a tenth as much space (this actually annoys me, but oh well). Putting D&D on the box seems like it might convince some of these stores to carry the line, which would increase its visibility among those gaming nerds who can't go to or find FLGs as often.

[killercactus]

D&D Heroscape = Heroscape = Awesome.

[Harlax]

To me, the lack of website updating seems fairly significant. It wouldn't take all that much (comparative) effort and would show some confidence and concern regarding this product line. .

Other wizards games suffer much the same way. I play Axis and Allies minis and that website is woefully out of date. Product still comes out, but the website doesn't change. Similar story for board games on the wizards site.

I think its more about lack of resources in a tough economy.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

"The Play's the Thing"

I understand the economics of the thing suck, however, as long as the creative team continues to do great work, I, for one, will not complain.

Also, when I briefly played D&D (ages ago), what I really wanted was Heroscape. I just didn't know about it. I'm sure there are many others who are/were like me.

David

[Hogg]

I don't think any of you are going to dislike the game play that will come out attached to D&D Heroscape. You can cry foul all day on the reused minis and I'm there with you, but don't knock the game play potential before you've given it it's chance or you'll come out of it with egg on your face.

I never for a moment doubted what you guys would do in terms of fun and playable characters and gameplay mechanics. My concern is the deviation from the plot. I really want to know what happened to Drake, Raelin and the rest of the heroes from SotM after they met Aquilla.

Some of the funnest and most thematic Heroscape units are still as yet unreleased. It shocks me that folks don't get this.

I realize that you guys sit on units for a long time. I know the Gladiators were developed together and that Woo was developed alongside the Monks. My other worry is that you guys won't be able to release some of the stuff you have come up with because it doesn't work in DnD. (Soulborgs, Kyrie, Marro)

[nyys]

D&D Heroscape = Heroscape = Awesome.

nyys, when he joined the HeroScape fray during the Wave 7 release - :drool:

nyys, when he heard Wave 8, AA, and TJ was going to be released - :drool:

nyys, when he heard Wave 9 was going to be released - :drool:

nyys, when he heard Wave 10 was going to be released - :drool:

nyys, when he heard D&D Scape along with two more D&D waves were going to be released - :drool:

You see the pattern, and though I understand the doubts some have, until proven otherwise I will continue to :drool: over new units.*


*Yeah yeah, insert drool joke here. ;)

[Jexik]

Some of the funnest and most thematic Heroscape units are still as yet unreleased. It shocks me that folks don't get this.

I realize that you guys sit on units for a long time. I know the Gladiators were developed together and that Woo was developed alongside the Monks. My other worry is that you guys won't be able to release some of the stuff you have come up with because it doesn't work in DnD. (Soulborgs, Kyrie, Marro)

What he's saying is that some of this D&D stuff will be some of the funnest and most thematic stuff out there. When you play it, you'll like it. He's not talking about classic units that people are afraid they won't get. He's talking about D&D units that they most certainly will be able to purchase next year.

[J4Jandar]

See, I'm exactly along the lines of nyys and all the drooling. Personally I could care less about re-used figures since they're new to me. I have never had a problem with any figures released, they have all been fun in their own special way. Look at all the figures we do have to choose from! My problem is finding enough time to play all the great ones I want to play and they keep making more. I guess I'm just not that picky. I even eat left over meatloaf.

[Kepler]

What does "most thematic" mean?

[lazites]

What does "most thematic" mean?

I think he was trying to say theatrical

[truth]

I never for a moment doubted what you guys would do in terms of fun and playable characters and gameplay mechanics. My concern is the deviation from the plot. I really want to know what happened to Drake, Raelin and the rest of the heroes from SotM after they met Aquilla.

Actually that stuff has all happened. I've had it written for ages, they just never posted it up.

[J4Jandar]

So Thormun's Journal graces the front page of HEROSCAPERS.COM! ;) ;)

[Just_a_Bill]

Actually that stuff has all happened. I've had it written for ages, they just never posted it up.
Sad for us; must be frustrating for you. This (again) seems to pretty clearly demonstrate a lack of interest in Scape from WotC's marketing side. (Glad the development side hasn't lost interest.)

WizKids and Circuit City both went out of business, and their websites have had more updates than Heroscape.com.

[nyys]

Any chance you (truth) could get permission to post it here on Scapers?

[jschild]

What is sad is that it is 2009 and there are still major companies that cannot understand how to use the 'net.

It's a major failing of many businesses. The music industry can't figure it out, the movie industry can't figure it out, and things like the Heroscape website are done like they were made 10 years ago.

It's mind boggling that so many different companies cannot make sense out of the 'net. Well, that and the fact they somehow still muddle through it.

[IAmBatman]

WizKids and Circuit City both went out of business, and their websites have had more updates than Heroscape.com.

Circuit City didn't go out of business, they moved their business to exclusively online. So ... yeah their websites are plenty updated. :p

[Jexik]

WizKids and Circuit City both went out of business, and their websites have had more updates than Heroscape.com.

Circuit City didn't go out of business, they moved their business to exclusively online. So ... yeah their websites are plenty updated. :p

I wonder if eventually most businesses will be like this some day.

Best selling item? The comode-viday-swivelchair-phone.

[IAmBatman]

I think a lot of them will, just like a lot of higher education and other services will be (I teach college composition online for two different schools currently), but I think that "brick and mortar" locations will always offer a certain appeal for people that the virtual world just won't be able to fully duplicate, no matter how good the technology is. Kind of for the same reasons a lot of us on here probably enjoy video games but still love the more tactile, social, in person aspects of board games like Heroscape.

[truth]

Any chance you (truth) could get permission to post it here on Scapers?


Maybe... Though I suspect they will hang on to it 'just in case'

[Cleon]

Some of the funnest and most thematic Heroscape units are still as yet unreleased. It shocks me that folks don't get this.

I realize that you guys sit on units for a long time. I know the Gladiators were developed together and that Woo was developed alongside the Monks. My other worry is that you guys won't be able to release some of the stuff you have come up with because it doesn't work in DnD. (Soulborgs, Kyrie, Marro)

What he's saying is that some of this D&D stuff will be some of the funnest and most thematic stuff out there. When you play it, you'll like it. He's not talking about classic units that people are afraid they won't get. He's talking about D&D units that they most certainly will be able to purchase next year.

We also shouldn't be afraid of classic ending anyway. From my perspective, it looks like they still want classic and will give us classic. Even if that means soon or eventually. But I know they can't use D&D forever, common squads will run out and even the overall 'heroscape fitting' characters will. I can't wait for the D&D master set and probably waves too, along with Wave 10 that's like in a week. :)

[killercactus]

I'll also remind everyone that the Jandar D&D Hero is an Elf, and could very well be a Wizard.

That would be outstanding.

[Warlord Alpha]

I'll also remind everyone that the Jandar D&D Hero is an Elf, and could very well be a Wizard.

That would be outstanding.

That would be pretty epic right there. I just want that dwarf to have synergy with the Axegrinders.

[Just_a_Bill]

WizKids and Circuit City both went out of business, and their websites have had more updates than Heroscape.com.

Circuit City didn't go out of business, they moved their business to exclusively online. So ... yeah their websites are plenty updated. :p
Actually, they did go out of business, both B&M and online. In fact, the website closed down before the stores did (although the stores were no longer really Circuit City, but actually operated by a liquidator in zombie mode). Then in May, Systemax acquired the brand and the domain name, and launched a new website that looks a lot like the old one.

Anyway, I agree that it wasn't a perfect analogy... but for the record they did go out of business.

[Robotech Master]

I'll also remind everyone that the Jandar D&D Hero is an Elf, and could very well be a Wizard.

That would be outstanding.

Wizard definitely, but Elf? Was this confirmed somewhere. The figure used for it is an Eladrin.

[killercactus]

I'll also remind everyone that the Jandar D&D Hero is an Elf, and could very well be a Wizard.

That would be outstanding.

Wizard definitely, but Elf? Was this confirmed somewhere. The figure used for it is an Eladrin.

I thought it was, but I could be delusional. It wouldn't be the first time.

Maybe I just thought she looked like an elf...

[Therrian]

Any chance you (truth) could get permission to post it here on Scapers?


Maybe... Though I suspect they will hang on to it 'just in case'

Truth - Any chance you can comment on why they have not updated the website in such a long time? Is it as simple as just not having someone available to do it, or are they actually choosing to NOT update it for some reason?

If you have all this content just sitting there waiting to be posted, I can't see why they wouldn't want to make it available.

[truth]

Any chance you (truth) could get permission to post it here on Scapers?


Maybe... Though I suspect they will hang on to it 'just in case'

Truth - Any chance you can comment on why they have not updated the website in such a long time? Is it as simple as just not having someone available to do it, or are they actually choosing to NOT update it for some reason?

If you have all this content just sitting there waiting to be posted, I can't see why they wouldn't want to make it available.


My understanding is that for some reason, which I forget, the website had to stay under Hasbro's control. I think it is because it is setup completely different than Wizards can handle... or something like that. So its not just a matter of Wizards having their web guys work on it, it is a matter of having to get Hasbro guys to work on it... and how hard was it for Hasbro to update it when they were in control of it, all the harder it must be for Wizards to update it through Hasbro channels.

Lets all pray D&D Heroscape is a big enough success to drive them to do a rebuild or something of that nature.

[Hogg]

Lets all pray D&D Heroscape is a big enough success to drive them to do a rebuild or something of that nature.

I would hope than DnDHS is a big enough launch to get its own web page for promotion of the product if nothing else.

[lazites]

Lets all pray D&D Heroscape is a big enough success to drive them to do a rebuild or something of that nature.

I would hope than DnDHS is a big enough launch to get its own web page for promotion of the product if nothing else.

Ditto. Infact, Marvel Scape had it's own page, so D&D scape should aswell.

[Therrian]

Lets all pray D&D Heroscape is a big enough success to drive them to do a rebuild or something of that nature.

I would hope than DnDHS is a big enough launch to get its own web page for promotion of the product if nothing else.

Ditto. Infact, Marvel Scape had it's own page, so D&D scape should aswell.

Not if they are pitching DNDScape as part of ClassicScape. Though I do think a total redo would likely be the best course, especially if it allows Wizards to build it themselves. Wizards tends to do a pretty good job on their websites for the most part, so lets hope that we can get the same treatment.

[robbdaman]

This is assuming that D&DScape is even worth anything to WOTC and updating the site is cost effective.

For the record I'm one of those that think it won't do much to build the game or a new player base. This master set is just grasping at straws.

[IAmBatman]

Clearly WOTC isn't the one who has any say on site building - the site is under Hasbro control.

[wolfeman1968]

I think it will go both ways. In other words those of us who are into HeroScape may try playing DND mini and then some people who play mini may start playing HeroScape. Either way WOTC wins because they make more sales in both areas. Which is a very sound marketing scheme.

[IAmBatman]

If you're looking for a survey of one, I can say with definitiveness - I will never play DnD minis.

[GreyOwl]

I'm all for the new D&D Scape, but even so I really have no interest in playing D&D or D&D minis either.

[J4Jandar]

DnD heroscape - yes

DnD minis - no

Another expandable minis game would win me divorce papers. I really am quite satisfied with Heroscape though so I am good.

[Agent Minivann]

The thing about expanding both ways is this. I might try the other game, but I'm not going to keep playing it if the game sucks. I tried out the Halo Action Clix game (I was interested in buying them for custom Heroscape figures, who does that?), but I only played it once. It would have probably been a little better with more/better figures, but I already knew all about that trap from when my son was into Yu Gi Oh. I think I got a good enough feel for the game even with limited figures to know that it really wasn't going to do anything for me (discounting Heroscape custom fodder).

I might try D&D minis because of this, but I am just as likely to try it if I buy some figures to use for customs. If the game is a stinker, I won't play it again. As far as D&D goes, I played it a bunch in High School (Our last campaign was Spelljammer, and Dark Sun was just released as the regular gaming ended). I won't be playing it again mostly because I can't commit that much time to it. Heroscape is about perfect. It has a lot of the flavor that I liked in role playing, but it isn't a 9+ hour weekend gaming session after sneaking in every spare minute during the school day. I think there would be more going from D&D to Heroscape rather than from Heroscape to D&D as a result of this set.

[Felindar]

DnD heroscape - yes

DnD minis - no

Another expandable minis game would win me divorce papers. I really am quite satisfied with Heroscape though so I am good.


I as well am at my limmit. You are lucky. My wife is very Catholic and I would just get Dead. She dosen't believe in divorce.

Pete

[Sherman Davies]

But she does believe in murder? :lol:

[Onacara]

But she does believe in murder? :lol:

God will forgive you for murder...but not for geting divorced in the Catholic church...

[Warlord Alpha]

But she does believe in murder? :lol:

God will forgive you for murder...but not for geting divorced in the Catholic church...

Well, if it is true that people who play D&D are devil worshippers then maybe she will be doing God a favor by murdering him.:shrug:

:rofl:

Aren't misconceptions hilarious?

[chas]

These days, an incredible number of new designs are hitting the market, and people migrate as they wish from game to game. Especially if a pal already has the other game for them to check out painlessly. While 'hard core' D&D players may not be or become HS players, putting 'D&D' on the new HS MS says to the general gaming population: "Hey, this is about playing with classic fantasy/medieval stuff. Cool, huh?" Many game players will stop and look at that. And this, IMHO, is all WOTC needs to get out of it!

[1Mmirg]

I think this is accurate. Just mentioning the DnD set at my FLGS sparked a lot of interest. I think people like a good crossover and I agree that many of the "I used to play DnD" and the "I dabble in DnD; like to play, don't have the time" type fans are going to see this as a way to quickly/easily get a DnD hit, without going deep into all the new things DnD offers.

I'll be surprised if DnD doesn't bring in new players--as long as people hear about it/see it. And I'll be making sure people do around here.

[Johnnylama]

I think this is accurate. Just mentioning the DnD set at my FLGS sparked a lot of interest. I think people like a good crossover and I agree that many of the "I used to play DnD" and the "I dabble in DnD; like to play, don't have the time" type fans are going to see this as a way to quickly/easily get a DnD hit, without going deep into all the new things DnD offers.

I'll be surprised if DnD doesn't bring in new players--as long as people hear about it/see it. And I'll be making sure people do around here.
Yes-- Many former D&D players (such as myself) don't have the time for it anymore with a family, but... here's this great game that kids can pick up easily called D&D Heroscape! Score!:)

That's how it started for us...

[Felindar]

But she does believe in murder? :lol:

Oh Just for me she was very specific.

Pete

[Fauz]

Myself, Heroscape is table top war gaming as D&D Mini is more RPG. I like applying some RP elements into HS, but if I wanted to do a full RPG I'll cross over to D&D. However, financially, I'm picking one and not both, and HS it will be.

I don't mind the D&D theme at all. I just hope we aren't going to keep getting recycled D&D figures.

[Kroc]

I apologize if this has been brought up before. But to respond to Just a Bill I don't think that if all they wanted was to have an expansion without doing new sculpts they could have gotten figures from any of their miniature games, and just not given the credit. Then there would have bene multiple "this figure is from that set" threads here, but that's all good.

I think one thing that Just a Bill's missing (and every post I've read) is the perception problem. While I'm glad Hasbro tried to make Heroscape a kid's game I've heard many times that serious gamers dis HS because of this. D&D'scape will firmly trash this perception.

And as many knowledgeable people have said (truth, Sir Hawethorne) there is a lot of excitement in at least a subset of the D&D community. We'll wait and see.

We'll know if it worked if we see a bunch of people talking about how to include levels in Heroscape over in the customizations thread, and probably some general discussion threads. (I just hope the Forum Vigilantes don't stomp the excitement out of these new posters.)

[Hogg]

While I'm glad Hasbro tried to make Heroscape a kid's game I've heard many times that serious gamers dis HS because of this. D&D'scape will firmly trash this perception.

Like the DnD cartoon convinced everyone that cartoons were serious drama? ;)

[Mistman]

TBH, it can't really be called a proper DnD set without the legend that is Drizzt Do'urdan. How could they miss him out?

[Cavalier]

TBH, it can't really be called a proper DnD set without the legend that is Drizzt Do'urdan. How could they miss him out?
So all of the other D&D worlds 'can't really be called a proper DnD' worlds?

[Mistman]

TBH, it can't really be called a proper DnD set without the legend that is Drizzt Do'urdan. How could they miss him out?
So all of the other D&D worlds 'can't really be called a proper DnD' worlds?

You got me there, however you'll find that he actually has been in almost every DnD world there has been. But if they really wanted it to bring in DnD players, Drizzt would have been the obvious option.

[Agent Minivann]

TBH, it can't really be called a proper DnD set without the legend that is Drizzt Do'urdan. How could they miss him out?
So all of the other D&D worlds 'can't really be called a proper DnD' worlds?

You got me there, however you'll find that he actually has been in almost every DnD world there has been. But if they really wanted it to bring in DnD players, Drizzt would have been the obvious option.
I don't know about Drizzt Do'urdan, but I think that Drizzt Do'Urden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt_Do%27Urden) would be a better choice. ;) Should we have a BD and AD (before Drizzt and after Drizzt) designation because all the D&D rule books I ever played by were before The Crystal Shard was published. I guess I didn't really play D&D then.

[Faustus]

I am always excited for new HeroScape product, and while I'm sad that more Marvel expansions weren't released (and there's a part of me that still believes "one day";)) I'm still happy for DnD Scape.

Someone said earlier that they used to play DnD and HeroSape was the game they always really wanted, and I feel the same way. Once I got into HeroScape, I gave DnD one last shot and decided not to play it anymore.

So, yes, I think HeroScape can attract DnD players.

No, I don't think a HeroScape themed RPG would attract many HeroScape players, unless it is more of a campaign guide with emphasis on battle scenarios and not on the "role-playing." (Kind of like Descent, or HeroQeust.) I am already planning a campaign style game for DnD Scape - I'll set up a map, have hordes of monsters, and the other players fight through them.

Regarding the ideas of creativity being less than before, I think the cards that accompany the repaints of the Dzu-Teh and Obsidian Guards are excellent - they will see WAY more gameplay than either of the originals do. Despite my dislike of many of the DnD sculpt quality, I am looking forward to the cards. I would argue that creativity might even be better now b/c the creators are more connected with what's needed/wanted by the community.

Also, no to DnD minis. The existence of HeroScape means I won't play any other collectible miniature game. (Although Monsterpocalypse is very tempting...)

[lazites]

I was just talking to my local comic book shop owner. And we sat down and we chatted for like 20 minutes about heroscape. Him and I both agree that the people who play DnD will walk in, notice a box with a DnD logo on it, and check it out.

Even better of a chance if I get all Billy Mays on them at open game night. :P

[Therrian]

TBH, it can't really be called a proper DnD set without the legend that is Drizzt Do'urdan. How could they miss him out?
So all of the other D&D worlds 'can't really be called a proper DnD' worlds?

You got me there, however you'll find that he actually has been in almost every DnD world there has been. But if they really wanted it to bring in DnD players, Drizzt would have been the obvious option.

Um...no. Drizzt has not been to Krynn or to Torment or to the worlds of Dark Sun, Al Quidim, Birthright, Eberron or Spelljammer. Drizzt exists in the world of Toril in the Forgotten Realms. The only reason you have people here more or less promising that you will see Drizzt is because the set is called Champions of the Forgottem Realms...and Drizzt along with Elminster are the most recognizable characters from that world.

Not only has DND been around a hell of a lot longer the Drizzt, but the setting of Forgotten Realms has been around longer as well.

[Hogg]

Even better of a chance if I get all Billy Mays on them at open game night. :P

They made a billy mays figure?!? What set was he in? :lol:

[lazites]

Even better of a chance if I get all Billy Mays on them at open game night. :P

They made a billy mays figure?!? What set was he in? :lol:

I really wish he was a heroscape figure. Along with Vince Offer.

I'm guessing he'll be in wave 56 though.

[Gypsy]

I was attempting to acquire some of the MK figures from a Merchant that I deal with regularly.

He had this in his listings:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Forgotten-Realms-Underdark_W0QQitemZ170410755595QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?h ash=item27ad45c60b

Maybe this is the crossover component...

:mrgreen:

:idea:

I'm not saying it's new, I feel that this could give us all insight to the upcoming set.

I hopefully will obtain this, if & when I do, I'll try to make arrangements to somehow, share what I can(due to conflict of interest here) with all of you.

Until then, I'll do some more research & see what else I can find, figures, backstory, etc.

I collect all types of games & I'll try to pick up everything I can find in this set, just because it might come in handy for reference as to why the game will play the way it does....

:grouphug:

http://i.ebayimg.com/21/!Be0v5u!!mk~$(KGrHqIOKjgEr)6M9d80BK-z5EnM2w~~_12.JPG

EDIT

Just got this, it's supposed to have five stories about Drow & the Underdark. Also got a good deal on these....

http://i15.ebayimg.com/06/c/000/77/3f/68bc_8.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/13/!BT68NwwBWk~$(KGrHgoH-CoEjlLlfZ3LBKK+(h1-n!~~_12.JPG

[Therrian]

I was attempting to acquire some of the MK figures from a Merchant that I deal with regularly.

He had this in his listings:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Forgotten-Realms-Underdark_W0QQitemZ170410755595QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?h ash=item27ad45c60b

Maybe this is the crossover component...

:mrgreen:

:idea:

I'm not saying it's new, I feel that this could give us all insight to the upcoming set.

I hopefully will obtain this, if & when I do, I'll try to make arrangements to somehow, share what I can(due to conflict of interest here) with all of you.

Until then, I'll do some more research & see what else I can find, figures, backstory, etc.

I collect all types of games & I'll try to pick up everything I can find in this set, just because it might come in handy for reference as to why the game will play the way it does....

:grouphug:

http://i.ebayimg.com/21/!Be0v5u!!mk~$(KGrHqIOKjgEr)6M9d80BK-z5EnM2w~~_12.JPG

EDIT

Just got this, it's supposed to have five stories about Drow & the Underdark. Also got a good deal on these....

http://i15.ebayimg.com/06/c/000/77/3f/68bc_8.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/13/!BT68NwwBWk~$(KGrHgoH-CoEjlLlfZ3LBKK+(h1-n!~~_12.JPG

If you want any history/backstory on the Underdark or Forgotten Realms in general, just ask :)

I am sure there are a ton of people here that are VERY familiar with the setting and the characters in it...people such as myself who DM'd a FR DND Campaign off and on for close to 10 years.

[Gypsy]

After some extentsive research I found what seems to be the Link between the D&D set & RotV set...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/underdark_gallery/Mounted_Drow_Patrol.jpg

The common link seems to be Grimnak's Cousin, carrying a mounted Drow in the Underdark figure set.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
It could happen.....
:rolleyes:

Anyway, I bought my first heroScape set to use the terrain for my Hero Quest, when I saw the quality of the figures I collected all I can find, just to have a set. I can make Hero Quest cards for any figure that I choose to use.

While the Hasbro site lacks the dedicated people to update their site, I think that if WotC ever gets the opportunity to fix it, you'll all be amazed at their approach.

The heroScape D&D set is listed in the D&D Minis & actually mentions heroScape in a complimentary way & states that the new set will not effect the Classic heroScape play.

WotC has given you a new terrain expansion & characters to use how ever you see fit. Maybe attracting some of the hard-core D&D players for the finest terrain system on the market.

For all you Drittz fans, seems to me like he'll probably appear shortly in an expansion set as the Hero for the common squad in this set.

:grouphug:

[Agent Minivann]

*cough* Grimnak is the orc, not the dinosaur. *cough*

[Grungebob]

*cough* Grimnak is the orc, not the dinosaur. *cough*The dinosaur's name is Chompy.

[White Noise]

Even better of a chance if I get all Billy Mays on them at open game night. :P

They made a billy mays figure?!? What set was he in? :lol:

I really wish he was a heroscape figure. Along with Vince Offer.

I'm guessing he'll be in wave 56 though.

Someone actually made them a while back:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=26271


And Agent Minivann, I don't think it's as clear cut as you think. How could that little orc eat all of those squad figures? Also, isn't he too high up on the dinosaur to give any orcs his adjacency bonus? ;)

Whatever happened to that joke card, anyway?

[Gypsy]

Well....

I guess that's why Chompy gets all ticked off, when I call him Grimnak......

:runaway:

[chas]

(Spoiler Alert: Upcoming Old Guy Joke):

Q:What do you call a dinosaur who can always call up the proper names of his victims?

A: KARNAK! :thumbsup: