MARVEL SPECIAL! -- Unit Debate #21 -- Spider-Man Vs. Venom

[MegaSilver]

Spidey's up against his worst enemy, Venom! Will he win in HS, or will the villian?

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/8/1/1/spider_man_thumb.jpg (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/showimage.php?i=3765&c=11)http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/8/1/1/venom_thumb.jpg (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/showimage.php?i=3763&c=11)

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Situational Usefulness

Next Week:
Guess? (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=923795&postcount=4922) Helpers help____!

MegaSilver

[tubafication]

I voted for Venom. I think 10 fewer points very much help build armies around him. Plus, I think the 2 extra attack way beat the 4 extra D20.
The only role that Spidey would fit better than Venom is the Clean-up role because he works a lot better against range.

[Sherman Davies]

Unfortunately, I have to vote for Venom as well. Two extra attack dice for 10 less points? Yes, please. It's not so much that the higher attack is so much more powerful, it's that it clarifies Venom's role in an army, as opposed to Spidey's vague nature as a cleanup hitter/glyph holder/flag-capturer.

[Flame Gryphon]

The only problem, having had this battle recently, is that Spidey is better at doing his Spider-Sense, making it harder in the first place to damage him.
(An actual roll from the battle.)

Venom attacking: 5 skulls, 1 blank.

Spidey defending: 3 skulls, 1 blank.

D20 Roll: 20.

[NecroBlade]

Unfortunately, I have to vote for Venom as well. Two extra attack dice for 10 less points? Yes, please. It's not so much that the higher attack is so much more powerful, it's that it clarifies Venom's role in an army, as opposed to Spidey's vague nature as a cleanup hitter/glyph holder/flag-capturer.
This (especially the bold). I can't tell you how many times more I've rolled an 11+ for Spidey vs a 14+ for Venom, but Venom can actually take on/out more opponents thanks to that attack. Plus his Web keeps him out of trouble with a nice, different option for attacking. Whereas Spidey's is too similar to his regular: there's not often too much different between 4A vs their Defense and 3A vs their Defense-1. Oh, and 10 points is always nice to have, too.

[A3n]

My son loves Spidey & he rolls the Spidey-Sense more often than I can roll more skulls than he rolls enough shields to defend. But Spidey goes down like a $2 _____ in my hands. Some call it kid luck, but when he's of age I'll be trying it at the casino :twisted:.

[Balantai]

Every time I look at the Spider-Man card, it makes me sad. I have to choose Venom for all the above reasons.

[Sherman Davies]

Venom can actually take on/out more opponents thanks to that attack. Plus his Web keeps him out of trouble with a nice, different option for attacking. Whereas Spidey's is too similar to his regular: there's not often too much different between 4A vs their Defense and 3A vs their Defense-1.

Very true - the only time there's a clear choice between using Spidey's normal attack and special attack is when you want to get around a defensive power like Disappearing Ninja.

[Takanuva]

Wow, everyones cutting on spiderman...:o In my games, spidey beats the crap out of venom everytime. Venom hits harder, but only hits about once every 2 turns. Thats a huge difference. And in non-marvel games, he just gets better. Being able to constantly dodge attacks and being able to move forward is awesome. in average scape, if Q-9, a squad, or any other multiple attack figure goes against him, all he has to do is dodge the first and he can avoid all the others. Venom just gets cut to peices trying to roll his 14. Then again, maybe im biased:shock:...lol

[ABOMINATION]

Voted Spider Man. Reason: the fact that he only has to roll an 11 makes him a veritable Isamu, except in this case he has 4 defense to survive, and 5 life. I think that for the most part, Venom will go down faster because he has to roll a 14. Yes, he has 6 attack, but that isn't much when going against other Marvel figs.

[NecroBlade]

6 is a HECK of a lot more than 4 when it comes to Marvel figures!

[Quintaton16]

According to Mathguy's Matchup Calculator, Venom beats Q10, Q9, Nilfheim, New Drake, and Sonya-backed Cyprien (not to mention Spidey) in head-to-head battles. Of those, the only one Spidey beats is Q10 (by a mere 51.something percent too - and he costs more than Q10). For 160 points, I need someone who can do more than make people miss a couple times. Spidey just seems like a Waaaay overpriced beefed up Isamu.

[gorthan313]

I voted Spidey. For one, Venom dies too fast for me, and Spidey makes a great cleanup fig!

[Takanuva]

That may be, but most Scape games are not one on one against two very powerful figures. Theres usually other factors such as -dramatic music plays- SQUADS!!!!! (gasp). and against these, all the others get ripped apart bit by bit, where as spidey can just dodge and swing away.

[Bonecrusher]

Heroscape isn't who survives longest. It is who kills the other person first. You can't win by dodging attacks.

Venom.

[IAmBatman]

But would you rather have 100 attacks of 4 or 50 attacks of 6 to get things done? (I'm not saying there are numbers to support it being that dramatic a difference, but darn if Spidey doesn't seem to have insane staying power sometimes ...).

[NecroBlade]

I get 300 attack dice in half the time it takes get 400 attack dice. Plus adding 50% attack dice each time is a pretty big deal. I'll take the 6x50.

Spidey IS a good clean-up hero, but that's about it. Venom can play clean-up and up-front.

[Sherman Davies]

This is totally why my custom tweaks of these two made their costs identical. It was too much of an insult that Venom could be arguably better than Spidey and cost 10 points less at the same time.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah - I could realistically even see Spidey costing 140, honestly. But I still like him better. :-D

[Bonecrusher]

But would you rather have 100 attacks of 4 or 50 attacks of 6 to get things done? (I'm not saying there are numbers to support it being that dramatic a difference, but darn if Spidey doesn't seem to have insane staying power sometimes ...).

Do you mean would I rather waste 100 order markers with a single attack of four or spend 50 attacking with something useful, six attack? :) If Spidey doesn't do anything with that attack (something that happens way too much) all the extra is wasted. More importantly, order markers are wasted.

[IAmBatman]

An attack of 4 is plenty to kill most squaddies. The 2 extra attack is a waste a lot of the time.

[Bonecrusher]

The extra two attack is a waste? What? That two attack basically insures a squaddie kill, and is GREAT against heroes. Venom's sheer offensive output is too much bigger, IMO.

[IAmBatman]

All I'm saying is, a lot of times against squaddies with 3 defense or fewer, you don't even need it. 3 defense dice averages 1 shield, and 4 attack dice averages 2 skulls, so you're averaging a kill anyway.

[NecroBlade]

But you don't roll averages in Heroscape, you roll dice.

[IAmBatman]

Well if you're going to take math out of the equation, then 6 or 4 doesn't matter either.

[Sherman Davies]

But you don't roll averages in Heroscape, you roll dice.

Necro's not disregarding the math; I think his point is that those extra two attack dice will help Venom kill more squaddies than Spidey, too. Sure, most of the time 4 attack will be enough to kill a squaddie, but the times it doesn't you'll be wishing you had a 6 attack.

[NecroBlade]

Yeah, there's more consistency when trying to kill with 6 dice vs 4, though both are indeed susceptible to chance. Of course, if you threw all math out the window, we wouldn't even have a game.

[IAmBatman]

I understand there's more consistency and that 6 > 4. I merely meant to point out that often that extra 2 goes to waste, and against squad heavy armies I might prefer having extra survivability to extra offensive potency (especially if I'm spending my points on a one attack per turn hero either way).

[gorthan313]

I understand there's more consistency and that 6 > 4. I merely meant to point out that often that extra 2 goes to waste, and against squad heavy armies I might prefer having extra survivability to extra offensive potency (especially if I'm spending my points on a one attack per turn hero either way).




AMEN BROTHER BRUCE!

[Bonecrusher]

Well, they are comparable I think. But, the ten points makes the difference for me.

[Elginb]

With Spidey, you can run him into a crowd of squad figures and reasonably expect him survive for several turns-- you can't really do that with Venom. This makes Spidey more useful from the perspective of controlling the battlefield-- while those figures are occupied by Spidey, you get to choose your targets with your other army figures.

That being said, I still think Venom is better, but I think a solid case can be made for Spidey.

[Quintaton16]

I think we are kind of missing the point debating Spidey and Venom's usefulness attacking squad figures. If either Spidey or Venom spends time attacking squad figures it is a waste of their points. And while I will concede the point that Spidey has far better survivability against both squads and heroes, I debate the uses people are ascribing to the list of his strengths. There are far better and cheaper cleanup units (like, say, Cyprien Esenwein or Kaeemon Awa), who can kill opponents fast enough that they will likely not need to take as much punishment. The problem with Spiderman is that if you spend 160 points on a cleanup hero, you will be at a severe disadvantage for the first 3/4 of the game, and I don't think that is worth any cleanup hero, no matter how good.

[Elginb]

Well, what are some of the other uses of Spider-man and Venom, other than as clean-up?

Both are good assassins-- Spider-man is probably better at getting behind enemy lines than Venom is, but if Venom gets the opportunity, he can take down the target quicker.

As I said before, Spidey can also be used to run interference, whereas that's a pretty iffy strategy with Venom.

They can, of course, get through lots of defensive abilities with their special attacks.

What other non-clean-up strategies are there for these guys that I'm missing?

[IAmBatman]

Spidey's probably not a bad Glyph holder.
I guess my point in mentioning the squaddies isn't in trying to prescribe a clean up role for Spidey, it's realizing that, no matter what role you try to put a figure in, they're going to be attacked by squaddies at some point and be in a position to attack squaddies at some point. And when those occasions arise, in the squad heavy metagame, I'd rather take Spidey than Venom. That said, I'd take Q10 over either of them.

[Einar Gen.]

This can be solved very quickly: Who always wins in the end? Spidey, right? Uh huh, that's what I thought. Yeah. Uh-huh. Take that punks!;)

[fomox]

I haven't played enough mixed games to be sure (my kids like straight up Marvel battles, usually), but the contrarian in me wants to defend Spidey.

Here's my attempt:

I agree that spending order markers on Spidey is generally less efficient than an OM on Venom, but I don't put a lot of OM's on Spidey to get use out of him. His job is to get engaged to a key offensive threat (Cap, Abomination, Hulk) and then flip around while you blast the guy with someone else.

Spidey isn't there to be a heavy hitter. He's there to distract and tie-up. He's the Marvel version of Deathreavers. It's not about the attack power, it's about forcing disengagement hits and wasting your opponent's attacks.

Edited to add: The thematic value of this is just spectacular, by the way. Especially if you have a bunch of snappy insults to throw your opponent's way every time he fails to land a punch.

--

As an aside, the choice between the web special attack and the normal attack is always clear. Web shot is nearly always worse than the regular attack. Unless he can't reach, you always want an extra attack die over an extra defense die.

(Obvious exceptions include when you need a special: counterstrike, scatter, etc. I believe we've been through all the cases in the "Book of Spider-Man" thread, see the latter half of this post (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=734258#post734258) by dok on page 4.)