Hypothetical Battle

[Balantai]

Justice League Members: (Power Level: JL Unlimited Cartoons)
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Hawkgirl

VS.

Ultimate Avenger Members: (Power Level: Ultimate Avengers Cartoons)
Captian America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wasp, Giant-Man, Thor and Black Widow

Who wins?

[Aldin]

Justice League of course! All you need to know is that Batman can outthink every last Avenger and Superman, Green Lantern and Flash can easily implement any plan he comes up with without fear that their power can be reasonably countered by the Avengers.

~Aldin, who only read DC comics as a kid

[Cavalier]

The thing is, as much of a Marvel fan as I am (not that I dislike DC), when you have a character like Superman, without some sort of Deus Ex Machina, that team is going to win. If the Marvelites can't get their hands on Kryptonite...well.

[Aldin]

Cav,

Between the two, in theory, Thor and Hulk could take down Big Blue - the problem is they'd need someone intelligent - like Batman - to help.

~Aldin, who notes that Batman did - in fact - beat Superman

[J4Jandar]

Nope, Stan Lee just writes a DC win outta the script. ;)

[Balantai]

I really think Superman VS Hulk is a wash. Neither of them can defeat the other until some of the other heroes drop and can help.

[Balantai]

Given the time to prepare, I agree that nobody takes down Batman. So let's assume that there is no preparation time. Both teams are teleported without warning and forced to fight.

[Aldin]

I really think Superman VS Hulk is a wash. Neither of them can defeat the other until some of the other heroes drop and can help.

Hmmm, I think Superman is more closely matcher with Thor. Hulk needs to remain planet bound to be effective and Supes could easily sling him into space.

~Aldin, breathing the aether

[Balantai]

I figured Thor and Wonder Woman would be closer matches. Since they're both Gods and all.

[Aldin]

Wonder Woman is a goddess? She prays to Diana, doesn't she?

~Aldin, perhaps behind on his mythos

ETA okay... I looked it up... apparently the gods have given her godlike powers

[Balantai]

Here's how I would see the breakdown.

Superman vs Hulk
Wonder Woman vs Thor
Martian Manhunter vs Iron Man
Batman vs Captain America
Green Lantern vs Giant Man
Flash vs Black Widow
Hawkgirl vs Wasp

[Balantai]

Wonder Woman is a goddess? She prays to Diana, doesn't she?

~Aldin, perhaps behind on his mythos

I assumed she was a God since she had super powers and lived with the Gods. Wasn't she the daughter of a God? (I don't know DC as well as I'd like.)

[Aldin]

Here's how I would see the breakdown.

Superman vs Hulk
Wonder Woman vs Thor
Martian Manhunter vs Iron Man
Batman vs Captain America
Green Lantern vs Giant Man
Flash vs Black Widow
Hawkgirl vs Wasp

4-3 DC

~Aldin, powered up

[Balantai]

Here's how I would see the breakdown.

Superman vs Hulk
Wonder Woman vs Thor
Martian Manhunter vs Iron Man
Batman vs Captain America
Green Lantern vs Giant Man
Flash vs Black Widow
Hawkgirl vs Wasp

4-3 DC

~Aldin, powered up

I really don't see Superman taking out the Hulk. Doomsday did kill Superman and are Doomsday and Hulk really that different? I still consider that a wash.

Here's how I see it:

Superman vs Hulk - Equal
Wonder Woman vs Thor - Thor slight edge
Martian Manhunter vs Iron Man - Iron Man slight edge (Iron Man is the only one who can counter MM's psychic attacks with his neural inhibitors.
Batman vs Captain America - Equal (I would pay to see this fight)
Green Lantern vs Giant Man - GL crushes Giant Man
Flash vs Black Widow - Flash defeats Black Widow
Hawkgirl vs Wasp - Wasp defeats Hawkgirl because Hawkgirl can't hit Wasp.

I see it as Marvel 3 - 2 - 2; DC 2 - 3 - 2

[RabSheila]

Wonder Woman is a goddess? She prays to Diana, doesn't she?


I assumed she was a God since she had super powers and lived with the Gods. Wasn't she the daughter of a God? (I don't know DC as well as I'd like.)

Wonder Woman is an Amazon (based on the Amazons of Greek mythology).
I vote Marvel.

[Cavalier]

Here's how I would see the breakdown.

Superman vs Hulk
Wonder Woman vs Thor
Martian Manhunter vs Iron Man
Batman vs Captain America
Green Lantern vs Giant Man
Flash vs Black Widow
Hawkgirl vs Wasp

4-3 DC

~Aldin, powered up

I really don't see Superman taking out the Hulk. Doomsday did kill Superman and are Doomsday and Hulk really that different? I still consider that a wash.

Here's how I see it:

Superman vs Hulk - Equal
Wonder Woman vs Thor - Thor slight edge
Martian Manhunter vs Iron Man - Iron Man slight edge (Iron Man is the only one who can counter MM's psychic attacks with his neural inhibitors.
Batman vs Captain America - Equal (I would pay to see this fight)
Green Lantern vs Giant Man - GL crushes Giant Man
Flash vs Black Widow - Flash defeats Black Widow
Hawkgirl vs Wasp - Wasp defeats Hawkgirl because Hawkgirl can't hit Wasp.

I see it as Marvel 3 - 2 - 2; DC 2 - 3 - 2

Hulk v Superman is an interesting equation considering the fact that they both have nearly infinite power levels, as I understand it. The only thing holding back Superman is his own perceptions of his powers. And the Hulk limited by his level of fury.


Superman currently possessing enough strength to hurl mountains, withstand nuclear blasts with ease, fly into the sun unharmed, and survive in the vacuum of outer space without oxygen.

The Hulk has withstood the equivalent of inner solar temperatures,[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)#cite_note-42) nuclear explosions,[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)#cite_note-43) and planet-splitting impacts.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)#cite_note-44) He has been shown to have both regenerative and adaptive healing abilities, including growing tissues to allow him to breathe underwater,[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)#cite_note-45) surviving unprotected in space for extended periods (yet still eventually needing to breathe),[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)#cite_note-46) and when injured, healing from most wounds within seconds

[Aldin]

...are Doomsday and Hulk really that different?

Yup. They are. Doomsday is like Hulk combined with Wolverine combined with... Darwin's wettest ever dream. Doomsday could chew up Hulk and spit him out.

~Aldin, noting that Doomsday pretty much is Cav's Deus Ex Machina

[Balantai]

Yup. They are. Doomsday is like Hulk combined with Wolverine combined with... Darwin's wettest ever dream. Doomsday could chew up Hulk and spit him out.


Hulk's Healing Factor is much better than Wolverine's and is actully very Darwin-like. There is no way Doomsday crushes Hulk. If he beats him at all, it's extremely close.

[Aldin]

Balantai,

Everytime Doomsday dies - DIES! - he comes back impervious to whatever killed him. Plus, Hulk needs leverage. Like I said, all Supes needs to do is toss him into space.

~Aldin, who notes that GL is gonna be available to help the rest of the team rather quickly

[Balantai]

Balantai,

Everytime Doomsday dies - DIES! - he comes back impervious to whatever killed him. Plus, Hulk needs leverage. Like I said, all Supes needs to do is toss him into space.

~Aldin, who notes that GL is gonna be available to help the rest of the team rather quickly

Was Doomsday able to fly? Why didn't Superman just toss him into space? (Admittingly, I never read The Death of Superman)

Don't get me wrong, though. I also believe the JL would win this fight. GL and Flash are way more powerful than the likes of Giant Man and Black Widow. I don't think a beaten up Thor and Iron Man could take them both down.

[SummerTeeth]

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Hawkgirl

VS.

Ultimate Avenger Members: (Power Level: Ultimate Avengers Cartoons)
Captian America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wasp, Giant-Man, Thor and Black Widow

Who wins?

The result would be just about the same as the following:

Captian America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wasp, Giant-Man, Thor and Black Widow

vs.

Superman, twelve boy scouts and a chimpanzee with a glock
(the chimp is just to make it interesting against those in the who aren't immortal - hey, bullets hurt!)

Not that it's fair for anybody to fight a guy with pretty much *every* superpower. Superman would fly faster than they could see (faster than a speeding bullet, from what I understand), and if somebody has super-eyes good enough to see him speeding around like that, he could just burn their eyes with his heat vision. Or freeze them with his freeze breath. Lord knows what other stuff he can blow out of himself to devastating effect. Or if he *is* losing, he can just fly around the world, slowing it's spin, somehow turning time backwards, and start the fight over.

Sorry, I'm all cynical today. :)

[Killometer]

Assuming that Superman doesn't get all weenie (JLA's biggest potential weakness), JLA mops the floor with the Avengers.

Oooor, if Bruce Wayne got his hands on a Green Lantern ring (http://api.ning.com/files/Fy51Wkv*1Md-ffh9ZCAaxjY386Bl8NSYtyPan2t*WCWEQgElBdJO5MJ6Nb4lOv5VMNPd2Iz1d4mEaV8*m1 elGki60ayygRjh/BatmanAsGreenLantern.jpg) then he wins everything, single-handedly. 8)

[Aldin]

Oooor, if Bruce Wayne got his hands on a Green Lantern ring (http://api.ning.com/files/Fy51Wkv*1Md-ffh9ZCAaxjY386Bl8NSYtyPan2t*WCWEQgElBdJO5MJ6Nb4lOv5VMNPd2Iz1d4mEaV8*m1 elGki60ayygRjh/BatmanAsGreenLantern.jpg) then he wins everything, single-handedly. 8)

Uh oh... I needz ta warn teh interwebz - Chuck Norris has got hisself some competition.

~Aldin, not very good at chatspeak

[Killometer]

Oooor, if Bruce Wayne got his hands on a Green Lantern ring (http://api.ning.com/files/Fy51Wkv*1Md-ffh9ZCAaxjY386Bl8NSYtyPan2t*WCWEQgElBdJO5MJ6Nb4lOv5VMNPd2Iz1d4mEaV8*m1 elGki60ayygRjh/BatmanAsGreenLantern.jpg) then he wins everything, single-handedly. 8)

Uh oh... I needz ta warn teh interwebz - Chuck Norris has got hisself some competition.

~Aldin, not very good at chatspeak

OMGWTFBBQ!!!! EPIC PWNAGE! are the words you are looking for, I believe. :p

[RabSheila]

Justice League Members: (Power Level: JL Unlimited Cartoons)
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Hawkgirl

VS.

Ultimate Avenger Members: (Power Level: Ultimate Avengers Cartoons)
Captian America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wasp, Giant-Man, Thor and Black Widow

Who wins?

I think people are overlooking your power level stipulation. These aren't the comic book characters, but the cartoon ones. Superman is nowhere near as strong on the cartoon. According to the shows creator:

Superman’s a hard character to do, period, because he’s so strong. You don’t want to de-power him to the point where he’s not Superman anymore but, at the same time, if he’s too strong then the stories don’t make sense. If he can turn back time and undo anything horrible that’s happened, then there’s no drama. If he’s so fast that no one can sneak up on him, or so powerful that nobody can knock him down then, again, there’s no drama, there’s no conflict.

[Aldin]

That's a fair complaint, RabShiela. In all honesty I know nothing about the cartoon character version of these Supers.

~Aldin, former comic book geek

[Disposable Hero]

I think it would be close. Iron Man, being Iron Man and Supes being at Toon-level power, would have some gizmo cooked up to at least KO Superman. Hulk is gray, so Green Lantern could eliminate him. Batman would use tear gas to KO Wasp and Giant-Man. Cap would remove Hawkgirl from the playing field with his shield, leaving Thor to use Mljonr on Wonder Woman. Batman counteracts Thor and Cap, leavng him and Iron Man. Batman would use a special rusting dust on Iron Man. Then Deathwalker 9000 comes in and beats the crap out of Batman.

[RabSheila]

Batman counteracts Thor and Cap, leavng him and Iron Man. Batman would use a special rusting dust on Iron Man. Then Deathwalker 9000 comes in and beats the crap out of Batman.

If (emphasis on if) by some fluke Batman was able to take Iron Man out with some "special rusting dust" (remember, this isn't Adam West Batman, but Animated Batman) that would work on Iron Man's state of the art armor, do you really think he couldn't use the same stuff on Deathwalker's inferior suit?

And it's Mjolnir. The last thing you want to do is anger the Thunder God. (although that may be too late by suggesting the Bat could "counteract" him.)

[Odin_Osgard]

Batman counteracts Thor and Cap, leavng him and Iron Man. Batman would use a special rusting dust on Iron Man. Then Deathwalker 9000 comes in and beats the crap out of Batman.

If (emphasis on if) by some fluke Batman was able to take Iron Man out with some "special rusting dust" (remember, this isn't Adam West Batman, but Animated Batman) that would work on Iron Man's state of the art armor, do you really think he couldn't use the same stuff on Deathwalker's inferior suit?

And it's Mjolnir. The last thing you want to do is anger the Thunder God. (although that may be too late by suggesting the Bat could "counteract" him.)

Do you really want to anger Batman? He knows the weaknesses of all the Justice League. You don't think he knows yours?

[RabSheila]

Do you really want to anger Batman? He knows the weaknesses of all the Justice League. You don't think he knows yours?

After being a member of the League for so long, I would hope Batman would know how to overcome them. He is a reputed genius after all. But for a guy who is so smart, you think he would have had enough sense not to have kept records on their weaknesses so some nut job like Ra's Al Ghul could hack into his computer and steal them. The guy had already broken into the Batcave (learn from your mistakes Batman.) And as far as my weaknesses go, I'm sure Batman could figure them out pretty quickly. All he'd have to do is hang around me for three minutes and figure out Cool Ranch Doritos, Milla Jovovich and a kick in the n***s are my Achilles heel.

[Elginb]

Justice League Members: (Power Level: JL Unlimited Cartoons)
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Hawkgirl

VS.

Ultimate Avenger Members: (Power Level: Ultimate Avengers Cartoons)
Captian America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wasp, Giant-Man, Thor and Black Widow

Who wins?

I'll admit, I don't know the cartoons very well, but I insist on weighing in, anyway. This how I see it playing out:

If the Avengers get initiative:

Iron Man attacks the JLA with a uni-directional sonic blast that knocks out the Flash and Hawkgirl, and stuns everybody but Superman (Batman manages to put in some Bat-earplugs quick enough to stay conscious, but still momentarily out of action).

Superman responds by quickly tearing Iron Man's armor clean off of Tony Stark; but that only gets Superman a Magic Uru hammer flat in the chest from Thor, knocking the Man of Steel out (since Magic is one of Supe's few weaknesses, I'm giving Thor the advantage here).

Green Lantern uses his ring to divert Mjolnir from returning, causing Thor to change back into Donald Blake. Cap yells out "Manuever 36!" and Giant-Man takes a whack at Green Lantern, but is easily fended off. But it was just a distraction! The Wasp (wearing a fashionable yellow number) gets past Green Lantern's defenses, gives him a wasp sting in the ear, then snatches the power ring right off his stunned finger.

Meanwhile, the Martian Manhunter engages Giant Man in a tough battle, but everytime Giant Man tries to grab him, MM shapeshifts out. Whereas the Hulk gets lassoed by Wonder Woman, then tells the truth when he says "Hulk Smash" and promptly wallops Wonder Woman into oblivion... but then the Hulk says "this is all stupid" and leaves the battle altogether. After a bit, Martian Manhunter telepathically tricks Giant-Man into shrinking to ant size, then puts him out of his misery.

With Green Lantern out, Donald Blake makes a mad dash for his magic hammer (now a walking stick), but a recovered Batman stands in his way. But before he can do anything, the Black Widow and Captain America attack. Then ensues an amazing display of martial arts mastery as Batman battles against his two attackers all while periodically kicking the stick just out of Blake's reach. As amazing as Batman is, though, a Wasp's Sting is all the distraction Cap and the Black Widow need to take the Dark Knight out.

Martian Manhunter then swats the tiny Avenger and Captain America and the Black Widow prove to be no match for J'onn J'onnz. But this does give Donald Blake the opening he needs to grab and tap his walking stick-- the Mighty Thor is reborn! Using his magic lightening, he sets the land on fire around Martian Manhunter, burning him to a crisp. And so the Avengers win!

But wait, is that Hal Jordan snatching up the Power Ring that the Wasp dropped? Why yes it is. Green Lantern and Thor proceed to have an epic battle-- two God-like heroes, two titanic wills pitted against one another. Green Lantern's ring is built to protect its bearer from heat of stars, but it is still put under a strain from the onslaught of tornadoes, lightening and hail the Thunder God throws at him. Green Lantern gets his shots in, but in the end, Hal Jordan's merely mortal will-power can't withstand the relentless force of a eon's old God, as Mjolnir finally batters down the power rings defenses and renders the Lantern unconscious.

The victorious Avenger raises his hammer in victory, but not without giving due credit to his valiant opponents.


If the JLA gets initiative:

The Flash quickly takes out Cap, the Wasp and Black Widow. Giant Man then swats the Flash, but he's quickly taken out by Wonder Woman and the Martian Manhunter. Thor brings down the lightning and takes out Batman and Hawkgirl, but merely jolts everybody else... everybody else, that is, but Superman, who quickly beats the Tar out of the Thundergod. the Hulk then takes on the Man of Steel and leaves Iron Man to take out the others. Iron Man makes valiant effort, but the combined forces of Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter can't be stopped. Then everybody gangs up on the Hulk, who puts up a tremendous fight. Nobody seems to be able to defeat the other until J'onn J'onnz decides to use his telepathy to calm the Hulk down and turn him back into Bruce Banner. The JLA wins decisively!

[Disposable Hero]

Before I present my alternate idea, I'd like to say that if you've read some of the really, really, really old :grandfather: Avengers comics, you'd know that back when Namor was a bad guy, he used a special pellet on Iron Man that stiffened the joints of his armor. That's basically the intended effect of the rusting powder.

_________________________________________________________________
Round 1: The Flash tries to pull out Iron Man's power cables. However, Iron Man gets him in a full nelson, flies ino the air, and then dropkicks the Flash all the way to the ground.

Score: 1-0, Avengers.

Round 2: Batman tries to take out Cap. He distracts Cap with a Batarang to the hand and then kicks him in the face, ties him up with a spare patgrapple, and attaches him to a flagpole, telling Cap that he has a sense of irony.

Score: 1-1, tied.

Round 3: Giant Man turns giant and steps on Hawkgirl.

Score: 2-1, Avengers.

Round 4: Green Lantern tries his hand at stunning/killing Iron Man but fails becuse all the red p[arts are thicker than the yellow. Iron Man takes advantage and removes GL from the playing field by taking his ring and wearing it, thereby making him Iron Lantern/Green Man.

Score: 3-1, Avengers.

Round 5: Batman puts tear gas into the serum hat allows for size changing. Giant Man and Wasp are KO'd.

Score: 3-3, Justie League gaining.

Round 6: Thor uses lightning on Wonder Woman and KO's her, but Batman sneaks up on Thor and takes him out. Since he's worthy, he picks up the hammer and hs THOR POWERS!!!!!!

Score: 4-4, still tied up.

Round 7: Hulk beats up Superman but loses and is thrown halfway to China.

Score: 5-4, League.

Round 8: Martian Manhunter probes Black Widow's mind and takes her out, but gets his little martian fanny handed to him by Iron Lantern/Green Man/ Green Iron Man.

Score: 6-5, League.

Round 9: Iron Man uses his green lantern ring to zap Superman all the way to thwe next galaxy after Andromeda because his ring is jacked up to his armor, which has a green lantern battery attached to it for extra juice.

Score: 6-6, with the final decision going to Iron lantern vs. Bat-Thor.

Round 10: Bat-Thor and Iron Lantern go at it and create an explosion of energy, but the last man standing is Bat-Thor, because he has Mjolnr.

Score: 7-6, League.

[RabSheila]

I'd like to say that if you've read some of the really, really, really old Avengers comics, you'd know that back when Namor was a bad guy, he used a special pellet on Iron Man that stiffened the joints of his armor. That's basically the intended effect of the rusting powder.

Yeah, that happened in Avengers #3. He used a gun that fired an “emery dust pellet.” I think Iron Man’s armor has gone through a few upgrades since the 1960's.

[chas]

If DC wins: Marvel heroes sulk, complain to their Significant Others, get drunk, and go into therapy.

If Marvel wins: Marvel heroes sulk, complain to their Significant Others, get drunk, and go into therapy.

[RabSheila]

If DC wins: Marvel heroes sulk, complain to their Significant Others, get drunk, and go into therapy.

If Marvel wins: Marvel heroes sulk, complain to their Significant Others, get drunk, and go into therapy.

What's it like to work for DC comics?

[jschild]

Justice League Members: (Power Level: JL Unlimited Cartoons)
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Hawkgirl

VS.

Ultimate Avenger Members: (Power Level: Ultimate Avengers Cartoons)
Captian America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wasp, Giant-Man, Thor and Black Widow

Who wins?

DC because they insist on overpowering all their characters to such a degree they are boring as all get out. DC ruins all their characters because they literally have no reasonable limits and generally one stupid weakness. For example.

Superman - about a gazillion powers, to such a degree he is virtually unstoppable. Only 2 real weaknesses - Magic and Kryponite - Thor is only Avenger with a chance of beating him, thanks to wonderful magic hammer that Supes can probably pick up.

Batman - Greatest fighter, detective, super genius, in the DC universe. Has virtually unlimited money. Given time, could beat anyone in the Avengers though many could easily beat him first fight with no prep.

Wonder Woman - Rivals Superman in strength, but nowhere as durable. Only threats are Hulk and Thor and she is physically stronger than either.

Green Lantern - Only weakness is yellow, but his power level is again shown to be close to supes, though more limited and far more fragile. Would be difficult for anyone other than Thor to beat (he could easily pick and throw hulk with no threat to himself).

Martian Manhunter - Psychic abilities, phasing like the vision, near Supes strength makes him virtually unbeatable except for Hulk (psychics tend to have a hard time due to his rage) or Thor.

Flash - He can freaking run the speed of light DC. THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!!!!!! Could beat Cap, Wasp, and Black Widow in about a nano second.

Hawkgirl - The only easy one to beat, she'd be toast the second she pitted her mace against Thor's hammer.

Seriously, DC's have always had weaker (story wise) heroes for the most part because they make their heroes too powerful.

I've always preferred Marvel's method, which tends to limit the power so that they can be more interesting. IE, Captain America is a superior leader, probably in slightly better physical shape, and about an equal fighter to Batman. He is not the greatest detective, a super level genius and a billionaire however. Cap is still far more limited and thus, easier to tell a story without having to come up with silly contrivances to explain how he can be in danger of being beaten. Best thing they did in the new Batman movies was remove the brains from Batman - he's not smart but he's not perfect either. Plus they get that Bruce Wayne is the mask and not Batman.

Thor uses lightning on Wonder Woman and KO's her, but Batman sneaks up on Thor and takes him out. Since he's worthy, he picks up the hammer and hs THOR POWERS!!!!!!

Score: 4-4, still tied up.

How exactly does Batman "take out" Thor? And he would not be worthy. Remember, this is a man who has planned out how to stop every major hero in the DC universe. Supes could pick up the hammer, but Batman could not. You have to hit a special level of worthiness to truly be able to do it.

[Aldin]

Seriously, DC's have always had weaker (story wise) heroes for the most part because they make their heroes too powerful.

I've seen this argument in various forms a lot and I just don't buy it. Everything's Deus Ex Machina from the perspective that the good guys always win in both universes anyway. They're Superheroes... it's what they do.

I mean, come on, haven't you watched Pete Parker get the stuffing beat out of him because he made some boneheaded mistake enough times at this point? Does it really get you going knowing that in the next serial he'll get all angsty about not having enough money and wonder whether the Superhero thing is really worth it? I like Spidey - probably my fave Marvel hero, but there isn't some amazing difference between the rails he's on as a character and the rails Batman is on as a character.

~Aldin, trying for minimalism but somehow certain this is about to expand

[jschild]

Peter Parker has normal troubles though. He's got to worry about his wife/gf, he can barely pay for his apartment. He's very smart, but nowhere on the level of Batman/Reed Richard. He's tough, but not bulletproof, etc. He's strong, but only 10 tons strong.

He has real limits on his ability.

This is a recurring flaw among all major DC characters - They are simply too strong, fast, tough, etc than virtually any other character from any other series.

That's the biggest problem for the Superman movies - Supes is just too much of a powerhouse to be interesting story wise, it's why his comics tend to be really poorly done.

Bats is at least human, and while good, tends to need more time to figure things out to come out on top. He can be taken by surprise, at least, but again, he's just too rich, too smart, too good at virtually everything he wants to do. There is almost literally no one he cannot beat simply given time.

Other than the silly Sentry, Marvel has no comparable good guy that has so many strengths on such a level. It's ok for bad guys to be stacked like that, but for heroes, it gets boring fast. Really, how many of Flash's bad guys, if you treat the character like you should, could ever even have a chance to beat a guy who can run at the speed of light?

[RabSheila]

Other than the silly Sentry, Marvel has no comparable good guy that has so many strengths on such a level. It's ok for bad guys to be stacked like that, but for heroes, it gets boring fast.

Even the Sentry with all his power is about as mentally stable as Sybil. Which makes for an interesting story. You never know if he's going to snap in the middle of a fight (which he has), run away in the middle of a fight (which he has) or keep it in check (which he has). He's working with Norman Osborn's Avengers now so you never know what the guy is going to do.

[Aldin]

Peter Parker has normal troubles though. He's got to worry about his wife/gf, he can barely pay for his apartment. He's very smart, but nowhere on the level of Batman/Reed Richard. He's tough, but not bulletproof, etc. He's strong, but only 10 tons strong.

He has real limits on his ability.

All of which simply means that his travails are tailored to his power level. In the end you cannot argue that Spiderman loses more often than Batman. All you can say is that you find his particular struggles more interesting than Batman's.

Let me redirect a bit, with great power comes great responsibility, right?

I guess when I look at a hyperpowerful figure like Superman there's something intriguing about seeing him impose personal limits on the use of his power. He accepts the laws of the United States as binding, among other things. His struggle with how to responsibly use power is interesting because of how much power he wields.

Spiderman will never have to decide if commiting genocide of an alien race can prevent a greater future disaster. He'll never need to figure out what is and isn't ethical in the use of money in the business arena (back to Bruce on this one). The choices are on different levels, but as long as they receive interesting treatment they're interesting.

~Aldin, who likes reading about 150 point heroes and 350 point heroes

[RabSheila]

All you can say is that you find his particular struggles more interesting than Batman's.

For me it all comes down to being able to relate on some level with the hero in question. Take away Spider-Man’s ability. You’ve got a guy who has money troubles, family issues and problems with his love life. (True, this would be one boring comic without the web-slinging.) When I first read Spider-Man as a kid in elementary school I didn’t have any of these problems. I read everything I could get my hands on. Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, everything. As I grew older and kept reading comics in junior high and high school, I gradually grew away from the DC side of things. I thought Batman was cool, but I couldn't relate to him. He didn’t have any money problems. He could date whomever he wanted. His biggest flaw was that he wore his underwear on the outside of his pants. Superman was basically a god. Who also wore his underwear on the outside of his pants. I couldn’t really relate with that. The god thing, I mean. Although I can’t really relate with the underwear thing, either. Peter Parker, though…. Pete had money problems. Same here. Pete had romance trouble. Same here. You get the idea. Even though now I don’t have any of the problems that Pete and I shared growing up (except for recurring attacks from the Scorpion), Marvel characters are still more human and enjoyable to me.

[Messenger]

Marvel characters are still more human and enjoyable to me.Yeah, remember when all the mutants were rounded up into concentration camps (X-men timeline). Spooky stuff, that.

Not to mention their underwear was weilded appropriately.

[RabSheila]

Yeah, remember when all the mutants were rounded up into concentration camps (X-men timeline). Spooky stuff, that.

Those are great stories.

Not to mention their underwear was weilded appropriately.

The real reason I prefer Marvel. There, I said it. All that other stuff I wrote about was just a bunch of hooey. It all comes down to the underwear!

[Aldin]

For me it all comes down to being able to relate on some level with the hero in question.

Personal catharsis isn't really something I'm looking for in a comic book. Truth is, I'm mostly there for the pretty pictures. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy the framework and storyline, even need them to create a place for my pretty pictures. But when it comes right down to it, books are where I go for depth. Comics, for the most part, are somewhere between summer blockbuster and serious book, providing more meat than a two hour event while simutaneously more visually appealing than mere text. Comics can explore more than movies can in visually more powerful ways than books, but neither Marvel nor DC mainstream stuff is really where that happens.

I guess at the heart of my disagreement though is that I couldn't care less about my fictional heroes being able to walk a mile in my shoes. Why would I want to watch a fictional character struggle with the same stuff I do? I just don't get it.

~Aldin, seeking comic relief

[RabSheila]

Personal catharsis isn't really something I'm looking for in a comic book.

Me neither. I already said it was all about the underwear. And better stories. Underwear and better stories. And being able to relate to heroes on some level, not for an emotional release, but because it makes the story better and they know how to wear their underwear properly.

[Messenger]

I always felt that Story was an important aspect as well. Call it oxymoronic (or just moronic) but I always liked my fiction to be real. Maybe believable is a better term.

Take Superman: A guy from another planet who gets superpowers from our sun. How? I could see his skin being toughened by some process of photosynthesis, but how do you explain the flying? or the laser eyes? or the frost-breath for goodness sake?? Where does he get all that cold air from?!?

Now the X-men (my personal favorite and, admittedly, my only claim to comic expertise. I read/collected from about 160~225): Genetic mutations of varying degree enable otherwise 'normal' people to develop extraordinary abilities, what we deem 'superpowers'. Granted, there are some extreme powers generated from these mutations (how does Magneto control magnetism, exactly? or Storm the weather?) But that gets to my point. The more incredulous the power/ability the less believable and less interesting they become (at least for me).

Because, as some have mentioned, what is the point of watching Superman do what he does when there is really no real threat of danger? Where is the excitement, the struggle, the tension?

I think it is no coincidence that the two most popular charcters from DC and Marvel, respectively, are Batman and Wolverine. Batman, because he's just a guy like you and me, albeit with a bazillion dollars.

Wolverine requires a little more examination. His powers are rapid healing/regeneration and heightened physical senses (hearing, smell, etc.). Since we already posess these traits we can easily relate. The adamantium-laced bones and retractible claws aren't even that much of a stretch. The process of fusing high-alloy steel to bones would kill a normal person, but since Wolverine heals quickly, he is able to recuperate constantly and live.

The other X-men I cannot defend as easily. As I previously stated, some of them get a little far-fetched. Disbelief can only suspend so far...



As for the battle, Thor would beat them all. Because he's a god, and he's valiant. :D

[Aldin]

Ahhhh, we're essentially down to better stories. Well, as any libriarian can confirm, tastes vary. It seems strange, in fact, to argue to someone who enjoys DC more than Marvel that Marvel has better stories. Unless the DC reader agreed and offered an alternate reason that they read DC, I imagine they'd assure you that they liked the DC stories better.

Nothing wrong with that. I like David Weber more than CS Forester and CS Friedman better than Stephanie Meyer, though I'm sure there are tens of thousands who would disagree with me.

~Aldin, ready for a Killing Joke

[Messenger]

Not stories, necessarily, just credulity. Take Lord of the Rings, for example. Within the realm of men, elves, and dwarves comes a guy named Gandalf. He's got some power others do not posess, but there are moments when you wonder if he's really got some 'super-ness' or if he's just some influentially respected sage. ('kay maybe that's not a good example)

What I'm trying to express is that when you create a fictional realm with its made-up set of rules, the further you depart from our sphere of existence, the less your audience is able to relate to the experience. Follow?

Consider the genres of Science-Fiction and Fantasy. One attempts to offer a set of rational explainations while the other is free to do what it wants and claim 'fantasy' as its explaination.

Taking it back to the Comic book realm, as you build your hero's universe you are setting 'ground rules' within which the character operates. The further you deviate from our experience the more you ask your audience to stretch credulity to the point where, eventually, no one can relate to the character, emotional connection wanes, and people just don't care.

[Aldin]

Heh - this is just so wrong on so many levels ;)

Not stories, necessarily, just credulity. Take Lord of the Rings, for example. Within the realm of men, elves, and dwarves comes a guy named Gandalf. He's got some power others do not posess, but there are moments when you wonder if he's really got some 'super-ness' or if he's just some influentially respected sage. ('kay maybe that's not a good example)

'kay, I'll let it slide - even though Gandalf's restraint seems remarkably similar to someone we were discussing earlier. :p

What I'm trying to express is that when you create a fictional realm with its made-up set of rules, the further you depart from our sphere of existence, the less your audience is able to relate to the experience. Follow?

Not at all. Or at least not to the same destination. I read a Sci-Fi short story once about a man who betrayed humanity and became a vicious commander for the aliens, causing atrocity after atrocity because he believed that the only way to save humanity was to give it a Villain against which they could unite.

It's pretty far from our sphere of existence and postulates power being wielded on an incredible scale. And even though the line of thinking was foreign to me, I could grasp it and relate to the experience just fine. Certainly better than if it had been set as a "more accessable" modern tale involving Bin Laden.

Consider the genres of Science-Fiction and Fantasy. One attempts to offer a set of rational explainations while the other is free to do what it wants and claim 'fantasy' as its explaination.

You're joking, right? (Someone please tell me he's joking). Fantasy strives to be internally consistent every bit as much as Sci-Fi does. Both use fantastic concepts to address human concerns. Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, right?

Taking it back to the Comic book realm, as you build your hero's universe you are setting 'ground rules' within which the character operates. The further you deviate from our experience the more you ask your audience to stretch credulity to the point where, eventually, no one can relate to the character, emotional connection wanes, and people just don't care.

Except I would think the enormous popularity of Superman over the last half century demonstrates this simply cannot be true. Or at least that if it is true then DC comics don't stretch credulity in the way you seem to imagine they do.

~Aldin, story... check - credulity... check - anything I'm missing?

[Messenger]

I'm not sure if I'm not being clear (which is probably the case) or if we're just talking past each other.

What I'm trying to express is that when you create a fictional realm with its made-up set of rules, the further you depart from our sphere of existence, the less your audience is able to relate to the experience. Follow?

Not at all. Or at least not to the same destination. I read a Sci-Fi short story once about a man who betrayed humanity and became a vicious commander for the aliens, causing atrocity after atrocity because he believed that the only way to save humanity was to give it a Villain against which they could unite.

It's pretty far from our sphere of existence and postulates power being wielded on an incredible scale. And even though the line of thinking was foreign to me, I could grasp it and relate to the experience just fine. Certainly better than if it had been set as a "more accessable" modern tale involving Bin Laden.But that's my point. We can understand power struggles because they relate to us. Aliens and flying saucers require us to think 'outside' our experience.

I mentioned 'made up rules'. Perhaps I should define my terms. What I mean is the observable phenomena that we term 'natural laws'. Physics, and such...

Consider the genres of Science-Fiction and Fantasy. One attempts to offer a set of rational explainations while the other is free to do what it wants and claim 'fantasy' as its explaination.

You're joking, right? (Someone please tell me he's joking). Fantasy strives to be internally consistent every bit as much as Sci-Fi does. Both use fantastic concepts to address human concerns. Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, right?I'm not referring to 'internal consistency' (although that's nice to have, too). I mean that, when either Sci-fi or Fantasy depart from our realm of experience we must suspend our disbelief. We know that what we're seeing/reading isn't true, that is, does not conform to our realm of experience. Credulity is concerned with how far a given phenomena deviates from what we know is true.

For example, shooting a laser gun is better explained and more believable than casting a lightning bolt from a wand.

From the fantasy realm: Dragon flight. A dragon's pectoral muscles are insufficiently developed and its wing span surface area is insufficient to generate the necessary lift to get its giant dragon butt off the ground. But just about every story with a dragon has the thing flying all over the place. A magical explaination is therefore necessary to explain it.

Taking it back to the Comic book realm, as you build your hero's universe you are setting 'ground rules' within which the character operates. The further you deviate from our experience the more you ask your audience to stretch credulity to the point where, eventually, no one can relate to the character, emotional connection wanes, and people just don't care.

Except I would think the enormous popularity of Superman over the last half century demonstrates this simply cannot be true. Or at least that if it is true then DC comics don't stretch credulity in the way you seem to imagine they do.There may be many factors related to the popularity of Superman, credulity being only one of them. For one, a big 'S' makes a better tatoo than a bat silhoutte. :D

[Aldin]

I'm going to cherry pick here in an attempt to find the core of our disagreement.

For example, shooting a laser gun is better explained and more believable than casting a lightning bolt from a wand.

How so? I can give you a scientific rationale for either... or a magical one. Neither is particularly relevant to understanding power struggles. Either is acceptable as part of the backdrop of a tale which incorporates human elements. How do Dragons fly? Does it matter? We only recently figured out how Honeybees use vortices. I think you're looking for a difference here that doesn't exist for the most part, once you've decided to allow super powers in the first place.

As I mentioned earlier, Supes is the ultimate version of Spiderman's core mantra - with great power comes great responsibility. There is an enormous amount of story potential there. When you are powerful enough to impose your will, how do you choose your ethics? Given that you answer to a code of laws in such a situation, when is the imposition of law a breach of humanity? How do you hold yourself accountable? Quo Vadis?

I truly think it comes down to which stories you or I prefer to read and not to some innate superiority of one over the other.

~Aldin, using his magic wand to submit this post

[Elginb]

I was a Marvel Zombie growing up and I still prefer Marvel over DC characters. But the innovations that Marvel brought to the Superhero genre in the '60's have long since been integrated into the DC Pantheon-- these days, they're just as angsty.

In fact, DC has done a better job of keeping their characters up-to-date, just because they're willing to have some huge, continuity shaking event every few years, allowing them to completely reinvent a well-known character anyway they like. I wish Marvel would also do that, frankly-- the unending serial is unbelievable in its own right. Ultimate Marvel seems like the company is just hedging its bets.

Anyway, if I want Superhero stories with more depth, I go straight for "Astro City". I only wish it would get published more regularly, especially since Kurt Busiek's writing is nowhere near as good on mainstream titles.

[jschild]

Except I would think the enormous popularity of Superman over the last half century demonstrates this simply cannot be true. Or at least that if it is true then DC comics don't stretch credulity in the way you seem to imagine they do.

Except Superman comics are never top sellers. Never. Only through gimmicks does he sell well or does his movies do well.

He may be an "icon", but most so called "fans" of Superman haven't read a comic of his in years, vs. say, Spiderman and X-men.

[Aldin]

Except I would think the enormous popularity of Superman over the last half century demonstrates this simply cannot be true. Or at least that if it is true then DC comics don't stretch credulity in the way you seem to imagine they do.

Except Superman comics are never top sellers. Never. Only through gimmicks does he sell well or does his movies do well.

He may be an "icon", but most so called "fans" of Superman haven't read a comic of his in years, vs. say, Spiderman and X-men.

You're playing switcheroo here. My argument was about credulity and stands on its merits. If people found Superman to be non-credible he wouldn't be an icon.

Beyond that, you're preaching something you cannot possibly know. Who gave you omniscience about Superman's so called "fans"? Heck, if no one is reading the comics then why are they printing them?

~Aldin, who hasn't bought any comic books in years

[Messenger]

I'm going to cherry pick here in an attempt to find the core of our disagreement.Two can play the cherry pick game.

I truly think it comes down to which stories you or I prefer to read and not to some innate superiority of one over the other.Right, it all comes down to preference. I prefer my fiction a little closer to the believable, that's all. It's not that I can't appreciate a character like Superman, I just put him into a different category as, say, Batman.

Or Indiana Jones. Does it bother anyone else that he's able to perform so many reckless stunts, yet always manages to land the right way, or grab the rope just in time, or whatever else? There was a scene of him leaping over a canyon in a coal cart and landing perfectly on the tracks below.

Exciting? Yes. Realistic? Heck no. But again, I don't watch Indiana Jones movies for realism.

Alright. I think that about wraps it up for me. Thanks for the discussion, Aldin. Always enjoyable.

[jschild]

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2009/2009-01.html

Being 25th for the supposedly most iconic superhero is not a good sign for the most "beloved" superhero.

Note number one however - Spider-man, who is consistently in the top 10. Superman is a beloved icon, must like America's so called "past-time" is baseball.

In neither case have either one been number one for a very long time.

For all of 2008, supes doesn't even have an exclusive title until #191, Spider-Man comes in at #17

[Aldin]

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2009/2009-01.html

Being 25th for the supposedly most iconic superhero is not a good sign for the most "beloved" superhero.

Note number one however - Spider-man, who is consistently in the top 10. Superman is a beloved icon, must like America's so called "past-time" is baseball.

In neither case have either one been number one for a very long time.

For all of 2008, supes doesn't even have an exclusive title until #191, Spider-Man comes in at #17

What argument are you having and who are you having it with?

~Aldin, also pleased to have an enjoyable discussion with you, Messenger

[RabSheila]

I read somewhere that of iconic characters the world over the list included Superman, Tarzan and Sherlock Holmes. There were others, but I don't remember. It's been awhile and those brain cells are dead. I'm pretty sure Spidey wasn't on the list. Even though he ought to be. Stupid icon list.

Rab"just because I don't read his comics anymore doesn't mean I won't defend the Man of Steel, although he ought to do something about his underwear"Sheila

[jschild]

I read somewhere that of iconic characters the world over the list included Superman, Tarzan and Sherlock Holmes. There were others, but I don't remember. It's been awhile and those brain cells are dead. I'm pretty sure Spidey wasn't on the list. Even though he ought to be. Stupid icon list.

Rab"just because I don't read his comics anymore doesn't mean I won't defend the Man of Steel, although he ought to do something about his underwear"Sheila

That's because an "Icon" does not equal real readership. They tend to be easily understood archetypes and not complicated characters.

Most everyone knows of Sherlock Holmes, but try finding in a group of 100 random people a significant number who has actually read the novels, yet they might say he is the epitome of a detective. Superman is much the same way - far fewer read him on a regular basis (because story quality tends to be far lower due to the difficulty of making a god interesting and relateable) than say the X-men (persecuted misfits) or Spider-Man (science geek). Their power level also makes them far more approachable - something that Marvel generally does a good job of, which is why, despite greater name recognition among all people, more people read Marvel than DC.

[Arcus]

Shouldn't this really be Chuck Norris & Mr. T vs. JLA & The Avengers? I mean really, if you going to have an epic battle....

Chuck Norris walks right up to the Hulk, bites his head off, and then begins to swallow the rest of the Hulk whole like a Boa.

Mr. T pulls his Mohawk off the top of his head and throws it at Batman, who is in complete awe of Chuck Norris swallowing the Hulk that he forgets to move, effectively breaking his neck.

The Wasp attacks CN only to run into a cloud of green gamma gas spued from Chuck's blow hole, killing her instantly.

The Flash attacks MR. T with a flurry of punches while doing high speed passes. MR. T accepts all of these blows stoically while removing his gold chains and mumbling the word "Pity" over and over again. With his chains removed, MR. T speeds right by the Flash and incinerates him with the heat from the friction of his camo pants.

Iron Man fires a blast at CN only to have it deflected by CN's beard. CN then roundhouse kicks Stark right of of his suit and into the sun.

Thor charges forth aiming a mighty blow at Mr. T's head. Mr. T's Mohawk intercepts the blow, shattering the once powerful hammer. Mr. T then "Pities" Thor to death with his backhand.

The Green Lantern uses is ring to create a 1000 herd of cattle and stampeds them at CN. Not to be out done, CN stampedes right back and tears the herd limb from limb devouring them like a Texas BBQ. When finished, he brands Green Lantern in the face with his Texas Ranger collectable belt buckel and melts Green Lanterns brain.

Capt. America never knew what hit him. The last thing he heard was, "I pity the fool." before his head got caved in by a tire rim off of a red and black van. His shield is now being used as a cover for the spare tire of the same red and black van.

CN walked up the the Manhunter and said,"CN does not believe in aliens." and with that, the Manhunter died.

MR. T used his gold chains to lasso the Giant and pin him to the ground. He then proceeded to beat him down to size, literally. The Black Widow flew into help, but was met with a 5 gold ring fingered "pity" slap that left her married and pregnant.

You know what kills Superman even faster than Kryptonite? Chuck Norris's sweat.

Chuck Norris and Mr. T marched off the field victorious.

[Aldin]

Most everyone knows of Sherlock Holmes, but try finding in a group of 100 random people a significant number who has actually read the novels, yet they might say he is the epitome of a detective. Superman is much the same way - far fewer read him on a regular basis (because story quality tends to be far lower due to the difficulty of making a god interesting and relateable) than say the X-men (persecuted misfits) or Spider-Man (science geek). Their power level also makes them far more approachable - something that Marvel generally does a good job of, which is why, despite greater name recognition among all people, more people read Marvel than DC.

Sometimes I feel frustrated when we discuss things. Other than DC bashing I'm having a hard time figuring out what the purpose of your posts are in light of the conversation that was being had. The bolded items in your paragraph above are omniscient proclamations you have made which I do not believe you can prove and about which reasonable people might disagree.

You also seem to be making an argument that more popular things are inherently better than less popular things. Since I strongly doubt that is your position, why do sales figures for Marvel and DC necessarily have anything to do with the quality of their respective works?

~Aldin, trying to engage what you're saying but still having a hard time figuring out where you're coming from

[jschild]

You also seem to be making an argument that more popular things are inherently better than less popular things

No, but they are often more relatable, which is my point.

more people read Marvel than DC.
That one is easily provable...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=19505&page=article

The relevant part is

QUANTITY SHARE RETAIL SHARE
MARVEL COMICS 45.82% 40.81%
DC COMICS 31.67% 29.94%
DARK HORSE COMICS 5.05% 6.49%
IMAGE COMICS 3.32% 3.73%
IDW PUBLISHING 2.92% 3.08%
OTHERS 11.22% 15.95%

Marvel sells significantly more comics then DC and has done so for a long time.

Since I strongly doubt that is your position, why do sales figures for Marvel and DC necessarily have anything to do with the quality of their respective works?

This goes fully back to my point about the underlying flaw most DC's comic heroes have. They are just so powerful they make then harder to relate, because the challenges they often encounter in the comics ensure they are never really threatened. If Supes spent his entire time fighting Cosmic menaces it wouldn't be so bad. He spends the majority of the time on Earth in the comics however, and gimmicks are used constantly to put him at threat.

Then you have the silly weaknesses for other Uber Heroes, say Manhunter - fire....the guy can go toe to toe with Supes and even a small amount of fire can stop him? Yellow for Green Lanterns ring?

As others have stated, Spider-Man's long appeal has to do with how human he is. He isn't bullet proof, he does get hurt, without needing inexplicable weaknesses. He's poor, frustrated and a geek, just like most readers.

The X-men each generally have one power, often as much a curse as a blessing. They are hated and are outcasts, yet they still try to help those that would refuse to accept them as equals. Again, it's that whole element of understanding that allows us to relate to them that makes them such consistent sellers. Are they Icons or Archetypes like Supes? No, nor will they ever be. But while not every person knows them as well as Superman, comic book readers prefer them by far.

It's what drove many people from DC and to Marvel allowing it to take over DC in sales - Their hero's tended to be more flawed, more human, with problems we all can identify with more often than encountered in DC.

That's not to say they cannot be good, they are, Dark Knight Returns shows us that, Kingdom Come shows us that. It just seems to take more work to make them shine and thus, they shine less often.

[Aldin]

Well I should have clarified - the last three bolds were meant to be taken together - your statement that the reason Marvel sales were stronger is due to the relateable characters. You've done it again here:
It's what drove many people from DC and to Marvel allowing it to take over DC in sales - Their hero's tended to be more flawed, more human, with problems we all can identify with more often than encountered in DC.
Me? I think more people like the Marvel storylines.

~Aldin, who suspects that different people read the same comics for different reasons