Rules are made to be broken.

[TheLorax]

My apologies if a similar thread as been posted in the past, but I searched and couldn't find any such thread.

Let me start this thread with this caveat; I hope most of these never come true.

As a long time Magic: The Gathering player, if there is one thing I know about WotC it is that they like to bend/break rules of their games as they age. I could ramble on about some of the rules I've seen at least bent in other games, but this forum is about Heroscape, so I'll stay focused.

As Heroscape continues on, I see it only inevitable that some of the rules are going to be at least bent a bit, if not outright shattered by later releases. In some ways a lot of rules have already been bent (there really aren't that many rules in the game), I'm just wondering how far it will be taken. Here are a few I could see happening:

Order Markers:
To my mind this is the rule that has been played with the most, and will probably be continued to messed with. Bonding has already given us an "extra" order marker, and figures like Ulginesh and Ornak move this even further. We also have figures/glyphs that remove order markers. However, I see this being done in a more reliable/powerful way in the future. The repulsors are stepping it up a bit, but Dund really isn't that great of guy. I could see a more powerful order marker remover in the future.

In the same catagory, what about a squad/hero that requires more than 1 order marker to take a turn with? They would have to be pretty powerful...

Moving during opponent(s) turn:
Again, we already see a bit of this with the scatter and ninja's vanish. Counter attack also lets us deal damage during an oppenents turn. What about combining the two ideas? What about getting a move with a figure, regardless of whether your oppenent attacks them or not. Perhaps a squad/hero that lets you take a turn after the opponents 1st, 2nd or 3rd order marker? Maybe you get a choice? Some interesting things could be done here.

Ignoring initiative:
There has been an initiative glyph for a while, and now the Capuan Gladiotors can also add to your initiative in the right circumstances. What about a figure that ALWAYS goes first (with an ability similar to the Airborne Elite that takes place before order markers are placed). This squad/hero would have an ability that required you to use your first order marker on them, AFTER you activate it, and their turn occurs before any other order markers are placed.

I have a few more ideas to bend/break the rules, but I am interested to see what you guys think might happen. What abilities might we see in the future? Are there any rules you think will never be broken?

[Einar's puppy]

I see what you mean with a lot of this, but I trust the rules are held in tact by our beloved playtesters like Truth.

Also, your points on order markers don't eliminate the rule, it makes it more interesting. If you see Kato on the field dishing out turns, you may try to rush him. If dund removes your markers, that changes the gameplay around a bit. It's not that they are being taken from the game, it's just that different things are being done with them,

[MegaSilver]

I like the sound of this happening. It would make Heroscape more competetive, and new strategies would be created to counteract them.

But as you said, let's hope they are not used excessively. One or two units maybe could have them. It would be fine with me. But, I don't want to see a Wave-full in the future with them.

Nice ideas, but let's hope they are used sparingly.

MegaSilver

[Sherman Davies]

Let me start this thread with this caveat; I hope most of these never come true.

Why, exactly? All the examples you gave were of special powers, and breaking the normal rules of the game is one of the things special powers are all about. If they weren't, units would all start playing the same way and become little more than a set of life, move, range, attack and defense stats.

[TheLorax]

Why, exactly?

In my past experiences, constantly breaking or bending the rules has lead to the dreaded "power creep," as well as the game just getting sort of lame in general.

[Melwing17]

Heroscape doesn't have near the playerbase population that Magic: The Gathering has, though, does it?

That may have quite a bit to do with it. The masses who have been playing the same game for 15 years- they are probably the motivation for radically changing the way the game is played. Gotta keep them buying the new sets and adjusting their decks, etc. As well as just plain making the game have more variety/complexity/simplicity/whatever the goal may be.

That said, I still think this can be an awesome thread- maybe you should change it to "Rules are meant to be... bent" to change where the thread is going. :)

[Lord Pyre]

In the same catagory, what about a squad/hero that requires more than 1 order marker to take a turn with? They would have to be pretty powerful...

Now that's a pretty cool idea. I haven't thought of that one. It would take some fine tuning to get right, but that could be a cool unit.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

I think the title of this thread is very true: rules are meant to be broken. This is what every single special power does. The rules say you must count elevation. Flying breaks that rule. The rules say you can only attack once per figure. Double Attack breaks that. The fact that the special powers break the rules is what makes the game so interesting.

And as for power creep, we have a lovely point system which more or less rules out power creep. (I know it's not perfect, but old figures never become obsolete the way cards in TCGs do. The KMA are still some of the best figures in the game, and they've been out for years.) In Magic, you're limited only by deck size. (Maybe not even that? I've never actually played MtG...)

[TheLorax]

I think the title of this thread is very true: rules are meant to be broken. This is what every single special power does. The rules say you must count elevation. Flying breaks that rule. The rules say you can only attack once per figure. Double Attack breaks that. The fact that the special powers break the rules is what makes the game so interesting.

And as for power creep, we have a lovely point system which more or less rules out power creep. (I know it's not perfect, but old figures never become obsolete the way cards in TCGs do. The KMA are still some of the best figures in the game, and they've been out for years.) In Magic, you're limited only by deck size. (Maybe not even that? I've never actually played MtG...)

Yeah, not to be mean or anything (maybe you are better off) it kind of shows you never played MtG. The 9 "best" cards ever made where created back in the very first release of the game. It is sort of a similar situation where the developers weren't sure how to balance the earliest card/figures w/e.

As far as flying and most other special powers, that isn't what I really meant by breaking the rules. There isn't a rule that says a figure can't have a more than one attack, it is more like a figure doesn't attack more than once unless specified.

As far as the older player base wanting the rules to advance, I'm not sure on that. Honestly, I quit played MtG several years ago (4 maybe?), and the last year was not so great either.

If you haven't played similar games where there are successive releases, particularly by WotC, then honestly you may not understand the thrust of this thread.

However, much credit I think is due to the playtest/balance team. Making a unit like Spartacus viable (again?) is definitely a great direction. This thread was not meant to say "Wave 9 is the beginning of the end" or any such doom and gloom. I am mainly speaking from previous experience with similar games, particularly owned by WotC.

[nyys]

I'm not worried about any of this in the least. All the things mentioned here is what makes HeroScape... well... HeroScape.

The game has been around for six years now and no sign of power creep what-so-ever. With the current play-testing team in place, no worries at all.

Power creep only becomes an issue if the tournament scene becomes 'official' and is run by WotC IMO. As of now, there are no signs at all that point to this happening.

[Warlord Alpha]

And as for power creep, we have a lovely point system which more or less rules out power creep.

In my opinion its the complete opposite. As a matter of fact, the point system is the perfect excuse for power creep - you start getting more bang for your buck, literally. As people have said, though, thats what playtesting is for.

[BurnyFlame]

In the same catagory, what about a squad/hero that requires more than 1 order marker to take a turn with? They would have to be pretty powerful...
How about a "Ninja Master" with the following power to help out all of the ninja:

Silent Storm:
If you have all of your order markers on "Ninja Master," you may reveal all of them during your turn to activate Silent Storm. You may place all ninjas you control on any empty spaces. You cannot place them adjacent to each other or other figures, or on glyphs. You may also immediately take a turn with up to three ninja army cards you control. This power can only be used once per game.

WOTC, I hope you are reading this . . .

[Mombo101]

Heroscape doesn't have near the playerbase population that Magic: The Gathering has, though, does it?

That may have quite a bit to do with it. The masses who have been playing the same game for 15 years- they are probably the motivation for radically changing the way the game is played. Gotta keep them buying the new sets and adjusting their decks, etc. As well as just plain making the game have more variety/complexity/simplicity/whatever the goal may be.

That said, I still think this can be an awesome thread- maybe you should change it to "Rules are meant to be... bent" to change where the thread is going. :)

Magic has something like around 10,000 unique cards, and has been around close to 15 years. In order to keep the game viable you need to do something which has never been done before; to do this, the only way Wizards can succeed is "breaking" rules. The only reason there is a huge power creep in comparison to the first few sets is because of the length the game has been out, nothing more, nothing less. It's a double-edged sword if you will.

Please note, I am not a Magic player, I quit the game a good 2-3 years ago, mainly because of the "competitive" environment.

Someone can correct me, but I was under the impression that Wave 9 was created before Heroscape's switchover to WotC. If this is the case, then the "power creep" (if there is one), isn't really because of WotC. But, I'll be honest, I don't really see one. I really think everything is pretty balanced, and nothing is too powerful. Granted, I'm not a huge fan of Wizards because of some of their policies, and the fact that they sued WizKids games for "copyright infringement" for a game WizKids had out first and years earlier, but I digress and I'm going to hold out hope that the game will remain balanced.

[TheLorax]

This thread seems to be heading in more of a "Is WotC good for bad for Heroscape?" direction, which was not my intent. This may be partially my fault due to an earlier post.

Break some rules!

[Warlord Alpha]

Break some rules!

I would edit that before I (we) take it to heart.

[chas]

The best additional rule for me would be one that would change the 'Power Creep' as I see it that exists. This is really some mostly early figures being too powerless or D20 dependent compared to later releases, where they got it right!

Therefore, something like: RESERVE POWER UP--any ordered figure after Turn 5 that has not yet attacked may ONCE PER GAME add +3 to a D20 roll or their normal Movement, Range, Attack or Defense stat.

[mrbistro]

This thread seems to be heading in more of a "Is WotC good for bad for Heroscape?" direction, which was not my intent. This may be partially my fault due to an earlier post.

Break some rules!
Or it could be due to the inconsistency of your message. Heroscape's special power have bending the rules since the first master set. In fact, that's their purpose. And after 9 waves, a second master set, 4 terrain sets, and 4 big hero releases, we still haven't seen power creep. How long does this game have to provide consistent, quality releases before people stop waving their doomsday signs and saying everything will go downhill?

[TheLorax]

This thread was not meant to say "Wave 9 is the beginning of the end" or any such doom and gloom.

Did you read the whole thread?

[IAmBatman]

This thread really seems to be asking "what are some ideas for innovative special powers"? As others have said, quite rightly, every new unit added to the game "breaks" the rules to some extent (really, what they do is add on to the rules or amend the rules, but for the purpose of this thread that seems to be the same thing as the OP's "break" language).
What I like about that "Silent Storm" suggestion for ninja's a page back is the idea of a special power that allows you to activate more than one Order Marker at once. Really cool concept that "breaks" from the way units are played now, but that could do so without the game system without (theoretically) being broken.

[Sherman Davies]

Did you read the whole thread?

I'm sure mrbistro did read the whole thread; it's not very long. To be fair to him, your point does seem a bit contradictory - quotes like these:

As Heroscape continues on, I see it only inevitable that some of the rules are going to be at least bent a bit, if not outright shattered by later releases. In some ways a lot of rules have already been bent (there really aren't that many rules in the game), I'm just wondering how far it will be taken.

I have a few more ideas to bend/break the rules, but I am interested to see what you guys think might happen. What abilities might we see in the future? Are there any rules you think will never be broken?

In my past experiences, constantly breaking or bending the rules has lead to the dreaded "power creep," as well as the game just getting sort of lame in general.

seem to directly contradict one like this:

This thread was not meant to say "Wave 9 is the beginning of the end" or any such doom and gloom.

You see why people aren't sure where you stand?

[IAmBatman]

I would agree that your definition of what it means to "break" a power seems very unsettled. I would also argue, like many others here already (and like I did in my previous post) that every new unit card, by adding new powers to the game, "breaks" the rules in a new way by expanding the rules as a whole.
You listed many examples of powers that do this or that to "break" the rules in your initial thread, but find me one special power that doesn't "break" the rules in the same way? I don't think you can.

[TheLorax]

I understand what you guys mean by most if not all special powers "break" or "bend" the conventional rules in some way, but that isn't really what I was getting at. To me, abilities like flying or double attack, while technically are ignoring basic rules (elevation, one attack per turn), these are pretty basic abilities that I would expect to see in a fantasy-style war game.

What I really meant are what abilities do you think we might see in the future, or would you like to see, that dramatically change or interrupt the general flow of the game, at least temporarily. You can see my first post for the direction I was headed, but to use existing figures as an example; I don't think any of the special abilities in wave 9 dramatically change the flow of the game. Certainly some abilities are cool and unique (the repulsors and brave arrow/MRT have probably the most unique abilities in this set IMO), but they don't change the basic flow of the game much. That is not to say wave 9 is bad, or unoriginal or anything of that sort, I am just using that as an example.

To me the Airborne Elite, a figure that has been around since the beginning, have a very rule "breaking" ability in the drop. Under normal circumstances, all figures have to be placed in a starting zone, the AE don't. That's the sort of abilities I am looking for in this thread.

I'm sorry if there was confusion, I didn't think people were going to get very nitpicky about the definition of "breaking" rules and whatnot. Yes this thread could be called "What future abilities do you think might ignore other rules, the way most special abilities ignore rules" or similar nonsense, but that isn't nearly as concise. I hope this has cleared up any confusion about the intention of the thread.

I hope future posts are more focused on interesting/unique abilities.

[mrbistro]

This thread was not meant to say "Wave 9 is the beginning of the end" or any such doom and gloom.

Did you read the whole thread?
I did, as Sherman Davies pointed out. His quotes perfectly capture your lack of a thesis. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

The only "rule breaker" that I don't like is the AE. The game has start zones for a reason. You shouldn't be able to just poof ranged figures at the start of the game onto height without even spending an Order Marker.

And Heroscape doesn't have alot of power creep. The only example I can think of is how Zelrig, Johrdawn, and the shotgunners made drafting DW9000 pointless. Braxas seems to do Sudema's job better, though.

[mrbistro]

The only "rule breaker" that I don't like is the AE. The game has start zones for a reason. You shouldn't be able to just poof figures at the start of the game onto height.
Ah but that's the joy of AE. Sometimes they work great and othertimes they don't. And their low defense of 2 keeps them from being too effective.

They're also a perfect example of a "rule breaker" in the original master set.

[J4Jandar]

The only "rule breaker" that I don't like is the AE. The game has start zones for a reason. You shouldn't be able to just poof figures at the start of the game onto height.
Ah but that's the joy of AE. Sometimes they work great and othertimes they don't. And their low defense of 2 keeps them from being too effective.

They're also a perfect example of a "rule breaker" in the original master set.

I gotta agree. The AE are not omnipotent, omnipresent dealers of destruction. I've had games when they did not get to drop at all and that is frustrating spending points on figures you do not get to use akin to killing Iskra before she summons the Rechets. I do not have a problem with any of the figures released to date. They are what they are so deal so to speak. :D

[IAmBatman]

The AE are awesome!
And I would suggest that although some of the powers we've seen lately "break the rules" in similar ways to how other powers have "broken the rules" before, a lot of these rules breaks were very innovative feeling and surprising the first time we saw them (and I think quite a few in Wave 9 are as well - EMP anyone?).
Mindshackle is a great example of an oldie but goody "rule breaker" as well. You wouldn't expect to be able to just take your opponent's card and play with it instead of her or him. But with Mindshackle, you get to "break" that rule, much to your delight.

[Lord Pyre]

The only "rule breaker" that I don't like is the AE. The game has start zones for a reason. You shouldn't be able to just poof figures at the start of the game onto height.
Ah but that's the joy of AE. Sometimes they work great and othertimes they don't. And their low defense of 2 keeps them from being too effective.

They're also a perfect example of a "rule breaker" in the original master set.

I gotta agree. The AE are not omnipotent, omnipresent dealers of destruction. I've had games when they did not get to drop at all and that is frustrating spending points on figures you do not get to use akin to killing Iskra before she summons the Rechets. I do not have a problem with any of the figures released to date. They are what they are so deal so to speak. :D

Heh, there was one game I played with my brother, and I got initiative.

My grenades took out four of his Microcorp, two KMA, and put a wound on Q9 and Marcu.



...And in a tournament, I lost because they decided to never pop out...

:p

[IAmBatman]

That's some great luck with the dice, considering you only get to roll 2 attack dice with the grenades!

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

The only "rule breaker" that I don't like is the AE. The game has start zones for a reason. You shouldn't be able to just poof figures at the start of the game onto height.
Ah but that's the joy of AE. Sometimes they work great and othertimes they don't. And their low defense of 2 keeps them from being too effective.

They're also a perfect example of a "rule breaker" in the original master set.

Make that 3 defense for height. I wouldn't mind them so much if you had to risk an Order Marker on the drop, or if they had 1 less squad member (with a price drop). 4 attacks of 4 dice from 8 range at the very start of the game on your start zone for only 110 points is too much.

I've yet to see them never drop, and the AE are regular picks at my house.

[IAmBatman]

If the AE are as good as you claim, why aren't they overplayed at tournies the way Q9 and Stingers and 4th Mass are?
The answer? They're not that good. :-P I mean, they're good, but not that good. I've found that once a figure falls and especially once two fall they really have trouble earning their points back.
Not to mention that on boards without conveniently placed height advantage they really get nerfed a bit.

[Toad Rocket]

Back on topic (we could use a 'back on topic' smiley)

With the rule breaking idea, I think that started happening from day one. The AE being the prime example in ROTV. But look at wave 1, both orcs and romans have bonding which is type of 'rule break'. Like lots of others have mentioned, new powers are often some sort of 'rule break' from the orginal standard rules. Not a bad thing as long as they keep it inline with power balance in the game.

[Sherman Davies]

That's some great luck with the dice, considering you only get to roll 2 attack dice with the grenades!

Yeah, every time I hear one of those horror stories about the AE's grenades I always wonder if people are adding a height bonus to the grenade attack or otherwise getting a rule wrong. I don't use the AE that often, but when I do I almost never use their grenades. Four dice is better than two, usually.

[killercactus]

I'll weigh in with 4 games worth of CCG experience....

We're not talking about bending or breaking of rules in future sets. We're talking about avoiding brokenness. Power creep doesn't happen until something is "broken". Once something is "broken", better things have to be made to defeat it, and then they become "broken" (or indirectly cause other things to become "broken"). Then it just escalates.

I don't think Heroscape is truly in danger of this yet, because nothing is truly "broken". There are a few units that are close to it, but they all have their counters, which is why Heroscape is OK. If you check out Jexik's Cookie Cutter Tier list (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=23133&highlight=cookie+cutter), you'll see that the top tier of armies kind of form a circle:

4th Mass > Trons
Trons > Vydar Range
Vydar Range > 4th Mass

Rat-Podges / KRS armies are about 50/50 vs the above three.

Because of this neat little circle, we haven't needed to creep up in power. Each of the top armies has its counter, and it's another top army. Other armies can still perform quite well, and even beat the top armies sometime. Knights of Weston builds have done quite well, for instance.

The only danger I see of power creep (and it's a small one) is the Omnicron Repulsors. They were made specifically to counter Q9/Trons, and Deathreavers to some extent, which could encourage power creep. Thankfully though, the Repulsors aren't strong enough on their own to need a specific counter. However, they might indirectly make the 4th Mass strong enough to need one if Q9's play is drastically reduced. Hopefully, players can be creative enough to use units like Zelrig, the Krav/Raelin combo, and maybe other long-range shooters like the Aubriens to take down Mass, and we won't need to creep up in power anymore.

[Jexik]

I think the title of this thread is very true: rules are meant to be broken. This is what every single special power does. The rules say you must count elevation. Flying breaks that rule. The rules say you can only attack once per figure. Double Attack breaks that. The fact that the special powers break the rules is what makes the game so interesting.

And as for power creep, we have a lovely point system which more or less rules out power creep. (I know it's not perfect, but old figures never become obsolete the way cards in TCGs do. The KMA are still some of the best figures in the game, and they've been out for years.) In Magic, you're limited only by deck size. (Maybe not even that? I've never actually played MtG...)

I like this post by Fuzzie Fuzz.

There already are figures that 'break the rules.' (I'm pretty sure that the Master Rules even use that language when describing special powers). Zombies and Marro Drones do something different with their order markers than most other figures. Zombies, Dividers, and the Hive create new figures, but they all have their limitations. Nakita Agents and the Repulsors also have interesting turn-stopping abiliites.

However, I strongly believe that it's not primarily the point system that keeps figures balanced, but the Order Marker system. Big surprise there, huh?

[nyys]

I've yet to see them never drop, and the AE are regular picks at my house.

If that is the case then your house is a statistical anomoly. If they are played as much as you claim then it is impossible for there to never have been a game where they didn't drop.

I've taken the AE to two tournaments, and in both I had one game where they didn't drop, and whad'ya know, I lost both times.


That's some great luck with the dice, considering you only get to roll 2 attack dice with the grenades!

Yeah, every time I hear one of those horror stories about the AE's grenades I always wonder if people are adding a height bonus to the grenade attack or otherwise getting a rule wrong. I don't use the AE that often, but when I do I almost never use their grenades. Four dice is better than two, usually.

Same here, I used the grenades once during play, they killed nothing, and then the AE were decimated on the next turn. They're a good idea (the grenades) if you don't have LOS, otherwise always use the guns.


Back on topic, I agree with killercactus, every unit either has a counter or some weakness that allows for it to be taken down quickly before things get out of hand, therefore, to this point, no power creep at all IMO.

I'm not sure there would be an ability that could break the game as long as any new units stayed within the current range of stats. What I mean by that is if they gave Zelrig 15 life and kept him at 185 points, then there is your power creep. Another example would be if they made RotV Raelin 10 points and she was a common hero. Granted those two examples are on the ridiculous side, but I think it would take something ridiculous to really reek havoc with the current structure.

[Einar Gen.]

I'm not gonna give a lengthy post, just my 2 cents. Heroscape is not a card game. I used to be a competitive Naruto CCG player, and it seemed like with the release of every new starter deck, they added some new rule. With a CCG, it doesn't matter as much. Miniatures are another story. When you begin to bend the rules for a wargame, it makes it something else. The rulebook doesn't need to be changed, simply because they can do whatever they want with the figures. Works a little different with cards, however...

[Zarovichx]

I will chime in with my experiences with Magic since I use to play for many years. The problem with Magic wasn't power creep since you mention yourself that the Power 9 cards from Beta were the best cards. The types of tournament formats and the amount of money required to make a legal deck and to keep it legal was the downfall for me and my friends.

The type 2 scene required everyone to spend a bunch of money each year updating their cards in order to play in the tournaments. Type 2 is what most people seem to play and it required cards from the newest sets in order to be legal.

Type 1 was all sets but the people who had the highly expensive Black Lotus and the Moxes had it in easy mode normally. The rules did change often with the introduction of new abilities and sets but that could of been dealt with if the cost to play competitively wasn't so high.

[Snotwalker 8000]

The only "rule breaker" that I don't like is the AE. The game has start zones for a reason. You shouldn't be able to just poof ranged figures at the start of the game onto height without even spending an Order Marker.

However, keep in mind that after you drop the AE, you still often need to win initiative in order to keep them from getting seriously flogged before you can activate them. The AE's weak defense makes the Drop risky when initiative is lost.

Also, a large part of preventing any unit from being "broken" is dependent on how well the map is built.

But back on topic, I too have previous experience with MtG (from well over 13 years ago) and abandoned the game due to it's requirement of YOU MUST BUY THE NEW CARDS TO PLAY COMPETITIVELY... (not tourneys, mind you, but just even casual games against friends). I backpacked through Europe for a few months in 1995, and when I came back, my friends here had continued to buy more cards and the newer releases, and I was no longer able to win anymore games against them. When I left, we were all dead-even in win/loss ratios.... when I got back, we realized how $$$ dependent that game really was! :shock: The more money you spend on it, the stronger your decks will be, and the more games you'll win.

Heroscape, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. I could have stopped buying new heroscape products years ago, and still have been able to build very competitive armies against the newest armies available. In fact, I just played some 3-way kill-the-player-to-your-left games yesterday, in one such game fielded an army including some Vipers (wave 1)... In only 2 rounds, I won the game activating only my Vipers, frenzying through Q10, 1 NotNW, 3 Squads of WoB, Khosumet, & Isamu, all while only losing 2 Venocs....

We don't yet have powercreep, in the truest sense of the word, and I don't forsee that happening anytime soon.

SW8K

[TheLorax]

Some interesting thoughts here, but really this thread was not supposed to be about:

-Power creep or lack thereof
-Magic:The Gathering
-The "inevitable" fall of Heroscape"
-The immortality of Heroscape and what makes it better than CCGs

I realize threads take on a life of their own, and that I myself brought up some of these topics, but it was to provide an example or better clarify what I meant.

No one has posted a new ability since the first page. I don't know if you guys don't want to think of new "rule breaking" abilities or what, but this thread is way off track.

Some new abilities would be nice. Preferably something not like "Triple attack" omg it's not double attack its TRIPLE ATTACK ITS NEW! But at this point any abilities might be welcome.

:2cents:

[Zarovichx]

I am not sure if this counts as a new ground breaking idea but here it is:

I thought an interesting piece to create would be a pair of twin heroes that could be used separately or together. If used together they could use a special attack that could only be preformed if both are used on a team. Another idea I had for the twin hero concept is the ability of activating both with one order marker.

An additional Idea I had was borrowed from another game, Mage Knight:

In Mage Knight from the first set Rebellion there was a piece called the Necromancer. This piece could revive dead team mates if the roll was good enough. This could be Rebellion in Heroscape with a D20 roll. A roll of 10 or higher would revive 1 squad piece and a roll of 20 would be needed to bring back a hero.

[Warlord Alpha]

I thought an interesting piece to create would be a pair of twin heroes that could be used separately or together. If used together they could use a special attack that could only be preformed if both are used on a team. Another idea I had for the twin hero concept is the ability of activating both with one order marker.



Zettian Guards style, except they won't be a total waste of points?

[Zarovichx]

I thought an interesting piece to create would be a pair of twin heroes that could be used separately or together. If used together they could use a special attack that could only be preformed if both are used on a team. Another idea I had for the twin hero concept is the ability of activating both with one order marker.



Zettian Guards style, except they won't be a total waste of points?

Yes, they would be pointed costed individually. This way players are not forced to play both of them and could decide to play only one if choose too. They would have their own card but will have a joint special attack if both are played together.

[Mombo101]

Some interesting thoughts here, but really this thread was not supposed to be about:

-Power creep or lack thereof
-Magic:The Gathering
-The "inevitable" fall of Heroscape"
-The immortality of Heroscape and what makes it better than CCGs

I realize threads take on a life of their own, and that I myself brought up some of these topics, but it was to provide an example or better clarify what I meant.

No one has posted a new ability since the first page. I don't know if you guys don't want to think of new "rule breaking" abilities or what, but this thread is way off track.

Some new abilities would be nice. Preferably something not like "Triple attack" omg it's not double attack its TRIPLE ATTACK ITS NEW! But at this point any abilities might be welcome.

:2cents:

Lorax, I think the essential thing to realize is that I don't think any of us want "broken" rules in the game whatsoever. I know you were trying to go for the hypothetical concept of it all, ideas of what could be called "broken" or whatnot, but I would actually take it as a sort of compliment from the community in a way. Broken rules ruin games, and as anyone who has ever played a Decipher game (Star Wars or LotR tcg anyone?) can attest, they ruin the fun quotient.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is kudos to the design team on creating a balanced system and balanced sets.

[nyys]

I don't think a triple attack will necessarily break the game. All that needs to be done to give the unit balance is to cost it accordingly (200+?) and/or make the unit relatively easy to kill (low life and few defense dice).

Also a triple attack could also just be three attacks of two. Different yes, overly powerful, no.

Just about any ability can be used and not have power creep IMO. Unless, like I said earlier, its something completely ridiculous.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

I don't think a triple attack will necessarily break the game. All that needs to be done to give the unit balance is to cost it accordingly (200+?) and/or make the unit relatively easy to kill (low life and few defense dice).

Also a triple attack could also just be three attacks of two. Different yes, overly powerful, no.

Just about any ability can be used and not have power creep IMO. Unless, like I said earlier, its something completely ridiculous.

We already have triple attackers, just look at Q9 and Nilfheim, or pretty much every squad in the game. Making a figure with triple attack isn't very game changing.

For example, a hero version of the Microcorp could have 3 ranged attacks of 2 with the Sighting ability for 140-ish points and not be overpowered.

[Swamper]

I don't think a triple attack will necessarily break the game. All that needs to be done to give the unit balance is to cost it accordingly (200+?) and/or make the unit relatively easy to kill (low life and few defense dice).

Also a triple attack could also just be three attacks of two. Different yes, overly powerful, no.

Just about any ability can be used and not have power creep IMO. Unless, like I said earlier, its something completely ridiculous.

We already have triple attackers, just look at Q9 and Nilfheim, or pretty much every squad in the game. Making a figure with triple attack isn't very game changing.

For example, a hero version of the Microcorp could have 3 ranged attacks of 2 with the Sighting ability for 140-ish points and not be overpowered.


Sure, but Q9 and Nilf's "triple attacks" are special, so they don't recieve glyph and height advantages.

[IAmBatman]

A "rule breaking" special ability I thought of earlier that might be fun (yes, I'm sticking with my premise that every special ability breaks rules, but I'm thinking what this thread is supposed to be about is truly innovative special abilities that change the way the game is played in more instantly noticeable ways. Am I on target? I think we're all still trying to figure out what this thread is about a bit). But, anyway, the new ability I thought of would be a "Time Travel" type of ability, probably only usable once per game, where you could trigger a resetting of all the Order Markers in that round (so change the revealed OMs to unrevealed OMs). I'm not sure if it would also be feasible to undo the destruction of units/wounds (probably too much to reliably keep track of) and I definitely couldn't see figures being moved back (though maybe they could all be moved back to the starting zone? Well, starting zones aren't official concepts for all games, so, no, actually, scratch that). So it'd probably just be a resetting of the OMs, with knowledge on both sides of where some of the OMs were this time. It'd be nice to give some additional advantage to the Time Traveler (initiative, maybe?) but I'm still sorting that out.
Tell me what you think!

[Odin_Osgard]

This has been mentioned in other posts before, but

A pikemen- or spearmen-type card that kept figures from getting adjacent to it, but only in the front.

Making a legal, not "cheap", stinger-denial type peice.
One who would need to be flanked to be assualted by melee units.

Also even though it isn't rule-shattering
we need a squad of tower-sheild-bearers guys who had a large grey zone so they can advance on ranged positions without gtting sluaghtered

[Sherman Davies]

Also even though it isn't rule-shattering
we need a squad of tower-sheild-bearers guys who had a large grey zone so they can advance on ranged positions without gtting sluaghtered

I would love a unit like this. One of the things that sold me on the game back when I was doing research into whether or not I'd buy it was the fact that the zombies' heads were their only hit zones and the fact that Captain America's shield actually could protect him (although the latter rarely actually happens, I just like the idea of it).

[Odin_Osgard]

Also even though it isn't rule-shattering
we need a squad of tower-sheild-bearers guys who had a large grey zone so they can advance on ranged positions without gtting sluaghtered

I would love a unit like this. One of the things that sold me on the game back when I was doing research into whether or not I'd buy it was the fact that the zombies' heads were their only hit zones and the fact that Captain America's shield actually could protect him (although the latter rarely actually happens, I just like the idea of it).

The Romans sort of started down that direction. I think that a set of Sheild-bearer Dwarves would be cool for so many reasons. Heroscape favors ranged units too much in my opinion. Giving us melee units with smaller hit-zones would really be good. It would encourage you to pick more melee armies.

[kriegskeks]

So it'd probably just be a resetting of the OMs, with knowledge on both sides of where some of the OMs were this time. It'd be nice to give some additional advantage to the Time Traveler (initiative, maybe?) but I'm still sorting that out.
Tell me what you think!

I think it would be easier to implement something like a "Seer" figure with a power something like: When you reveal your first OM on this figure then you can roll the D20. On a ??? your opponent has to show you how he placed his OM.
It could be used with markers like Morsbane or only once per game. Would be pretty nice.

[Majai of Dreams]

I had an idea for a figure who rebuilds the board. I can not remember if the rule book actually says "You can not move the terrain". It may just be obviously implied...
But if the figure left a trail of 1 hex pieces behind itself as it moved. Or could move a tree up to 5 spaces away...
Or just keep adding 1x2 sections to the board and wall figures in etc...

You could really go places with a concept like that and that would in a way break a rule...

[Mombo101]

So it'd probably just be a resetting of the OMs, with knowledge on both sides of where some of the OMs were this time. It'd be nice to give some additional advantage to the Time Traveler (initiative, maybe?) but I'm still sorting that out.
Tell me what you think!

I think it would be easier to implement something like a "Seer" figure with a power something like: When you reveal your first OM on this figure then you can roll the D20. On a ??? your opponent has to show you how he placed his OM.
It could be used with markers like Morsbane or only once per game. Would be pretty nice.

It might actually be easier in terms of rules, and point value, to just have a figure which reads "All players play with their order markers revealed".

[Warlord Alpha]

So it'd probably just be a resetting of the OMs, with knowledge on both sides of where some of the OMs were this time. It'd be nice to give some additional advantage to the Time Traveler (initiative, maybe?) but I'm still sorting that out.
Tell me what you think!

I think it would be easier to implement something like a "Seer" figure with a power something like: When you reveal your first OM on this figure then you can roll the D20. On a ??? your opponent has to show you how he placed his OM.
It could be used with markers like Morsbane or only once per game. Would be pretty nice.

It might actually be easier in terms of rules, and point value, to just have a figure which reads "All players play with their order markers revealed".

I would LOVE a figure like that. Thats my kind of ridiculous twist. WotC, get on that.

[Hahma]

The only "rule breaker" that I don't like is the AE. The game has start zones for a reason. You shouldn't be able to just poof ranged figures at the start of the game onto height without even spending an Order Marker.

However, keep in mind that after you drop the AE, you still often need to win initiative in order to keep them from getting seriously flogged before you can activate them. The AE's weak defense makes the Drop risky when initiative is lost.

Also, a large part of preventing any unit from being "broken" is dependent on how well the map is built.

But back on topic, I too have previous experience with MtG (from well over 13 years ago) and abandoned the game due to it's requirement of YOU MUST BUY THE NEW CARDS TO PLAY COMPETITIVELY... (not tourneys, mind you, but just even casual games against friends). I backpacked through Europe for a few months in 1995, and when I came back, my friends here had continued to buy more cards and the newer releases, and I was no longer able to win anymore games against them. When I left, we were all dead-even in win/loss ratios.... when I got back, we realized how $$$ dependent that game really was! :shock: The more money you spend on it, the stronger your decks will be, and the more games you'll win.

Heroscape, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. I could have stopped buying new heroscape products years ago, and still have been able to build very competitive armies against the newest armies available. In fact, I just played some 3-way kill-the-player-to-your-left games yesterday, in one such game fielded an army including some Vipers (wave 1)... In only 2 rounds, I won the game activating only my Vipers, frenzying through Q10, 1 NotNW, 3 Squads of WoB, Khosumet, & Isamu, all while only losing 2 Venocs....

We don't yet have powercreep, in the truest sense of the word, and I don't forsee that happening anytime soon.

SW8K

Great post Snotwalker 8000 8)

I've never played MTG or any of those games where you have to spend a ton of money on blind purchases or what have you to keep your army/whatever competitive. I don't do tourneys as yet, but I would never want to have to spend a ton of money to have a chance. And there is no way in heck that I would spend a ton of money just to compete with friends for casual games. The thing that is great about Heroscape is that you always know what you're buying (no blind purchases) and you don't have to have everything or the newest releases to have fun and play competetive armies.

[Lank281]

In response to the OP, I don't think that "broken/bended" rules similar to your original ideas will occur. But, I'm still a tad worried about WotC running the show. I don't want to sound like I don't have faith in them, but I'm still praying to this day that they don't screw it up. When they first took over about a year ago, they changed a couple rules. I know they did this to eliminate loop holes and such, but I was highly disappoint that the Marro Hive must be removed after being defeated. I'm sorry to those of you who enjoy the rule, but I just disregarded that one altogether. Whether or not people want to remove it is up to them, but, how am I to believe that something (a character) thats as big as and almost acts as a building just disappears after being killed. (Nobody better bring up Zerg buildings from StarCraft!)

I'm sorry, I don't want to step on any toes, I was simply upset over that matter and I obviously have it house-ruled to stay on the board.

[IAmBatman]

So it'd probably just be a resetting of the OMs, with knowledge on both sides of where some of the OMs were this time. It'd be nice to give some additional advantage to the Time Traveler (initiative, maybe?) but I'm still sorting that out.
Tell me what you think!

I think it would be easier to implement something like a "Seer" figure with a power something like: When you reveal your first OM on this figure then you can roll the D20. On a ??? your opponent has to show you how he placed his OM.
It could be used with markers like Morsbane or only once per game. Would be pretty nice.

Yes, it would be easier to implement that type of power - extremely easy, in fact, but it in no way thematically represents "Time Travel" which is something I'm interested in being able to do within the confines of Heroscape. It's also something that's going to change very much the way the game is played in regards to that figure and requires something really unusual in terms of mechanics, I think. Thus my ideas in that earlier post.

I had an idea for a figure who rebuilds the board. I can not remember if the rule book actually says "You can not move the terrain". It may just be obviously implied...
But if the figure left a trail of 1 hex pieces behind itself as it moved. Or could move a tree up to 5 spaces away...
Or just keep adding 1x2 sections to the board and wall figures in etc...

You could really go places with a concept like that and that would in a way break a rule...

This is something I've thought about before. The idea of having certain Elementals with the ability to place tiles on the board (rock tiles on adjacent spaces in numbers based on D20 roll for earth elementals, water tiles for water elementals, molten lava tiles for fire elementals, ice tiles for ice elementals, and even the ability to bring trees to life, perhaps, by a Gaia like unit). I think with the tile placing the best way to do it is to package the figure with a certain number of tiles that would represent the "cap" on the number of tiles that figure could place on the map during any one game, and then place those tiles on that figure's card before the game to keep track of how many have been added/can still be added.

So it'd probably just be a resetting of the OMs, with knowledge on both sides of where some of the OMs were this time. It'd be nice to give some additional advantage to the Time Traveler (initiative, maybe?) but I'm still sorting that out.
Tell me what you think!

I think it would be easier to implement something like a "Seer" figure with a power something like: When you reveal your first OM on this figure then you can roll the D20. On a ??? your opponent has to show you how he placed his OM.
It could be used with markers like Morsbane or only once per game. Would be pretty nice.

It might actually be easier in terms of rules, and point value, to just have a figure which reads "All players play with their order markers revealed".

An Omniscient or Psychic or even Mind Reader would be good candidates for powers like this, except it would presume (perhaps not entirely thematically) that this Psychic is efficiently relaying all of his intel to his general/fellow soldiers. A telepath with visionary foresight could sell this type of power pretty well though, IMO.

[nyys]

In response to the OP, I don't think that "broken/bended" rules similar to your original ideas will occur. But, I'm still a tad worried about WotC running the show. I don't want to sound like I don't have faith in them, but I'm still praying to this day that they don't screw it up. When they first took over about a year ago, they changed a couple rules. I know they did this to eliminate loop holes and such, but I was highly disappoint that the Marro Hive must be removed after being defeated. I'm sorry to those of you who enjoy the rule, but I just disregarded that one altogether. Whether or not people want to remove it is up to them, but, how am I to believe that something (a character) thats as big as and almost acts as a building just disappears after being killed. (Nobody better bring up Zerg buildings from StarCraft!)

I'm sorry, I don't want to step on any toes, I was simply upset over that matter and I obviously have it house-ruled to stay on the board.

Considering the Hive is in the start zone does it really make that big a difference to stay or go? I'm not sure either way. I suppose if it was positioned to the front of a start zone you could continue to hide figures behind it, but since most/all the action takes place away from the start zone, how often would it play a role when dead (or alive for that matter)?

EDIT: I'm thinking in terms of tourney maps, I'm sure there are home goes where someone has the Hive and it starts in the middle of the board or in a strategic area (in that case, yes I would like to see it stay for LOS blocking).

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

In response to the OP, I don't think that "broken/bended" rules similar to your original ideas will occur. But, I'm still a tad worried about WotC running the show. I don't want to sound like I don't have faith in them, but I'm still praying to this day that they don't screw it up. When they first took over about a year ago, they changed a couple rules. I know they did this to eliminate loop holes and such, but I was highly disappoint that the Marro Hive must be removed after being defeated. I'm sorry to those of you who enjoy the rule, but I just disregarded that one altogether. Whether or not people want to remove it is up to them, but, how am I to believe that something (a character) thats as big as and almost acts as a building just disappears after being killed. (Nobody better bring up Zerg buildings from StarCraft!)

I'm sorry, I don't want to step on any toes, I was simply upset over that matter and I obviously have it house-ruled to stay on the board.

The way the Hive is shaped allows you to isolate a figure (lets say an expensive, easy to hide one like Spartacus or Kato, or you could just fly Cyprien behind it after he's done his job so you're not wasting points) in your start zone so that it can never be destroyed by most figures. I forgot if you could could win by points in the official rules, but you still have a situation where a figure can never be reached and doesn't want to/can't come out.

[TheLorax]

I had an idea for a figure who rebuilds the board. I can not remember if the rule book actually says "You can not move the terrain". It may just be obviously implied...
But if the figure left a trail of 1 hex pieces behind itself as it moved. Or could move a tree up to 5 spaces away...
Or just keep adding 1x2 sections to the board and wall figures in etc...

You could really go places with a concept like that and that would in a way break a rule...

This is a really cool idea, I haven't thought of something like this. You could enclose an enemy's unit, or make a small hill for your own. Some very cool stuff could happen with this.

This is the kind of ability I was getting at with my original post. Very nice!

[IAmBatman]

You really want to see a lot of ideas like that (not that idea specifically, but ideas that bend the game in creative ways), it's as simple as perusing the custom forums here ... ;)