Barracks Voting: War Mammoth

[justjohn]

Reapersaurus' War Mammoth:

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10070/WarMammoth.jpg

[toddrew]

I vote yea on the squad masher.

EDIT: I can't remember though - does his base only take up 2 hexes, or is it 3, even 4?

[Rhydderch]

I vote yea on the squad masher.

EDIT: I can't remember though - does his base only take up 2 hexes, or is it 3, even 4?

The figure is the DnD Tundra Scout. His base fits on two hexes although his tusks will probably hang over a third hex. Physically they provide some protection against adjacent attacks because not all figures can fit in the hex in front of the Mammoth. Of course it also makes the Mammoth much harder to manuever.

Also for clarification "smaller figures" refers to the size of the figure rather than the height. So Trample will work on Small, Medium or Large figures. It WILL NOT work on any Huge figures.

Also I think someone mentioned a typo on the card. If he could point it out to me again I'll go ahead and correct it. Thanks!

[Rhydderch]

Also could the people who voted no on War Mammoth please explain their rationale. It really helps the discussion and may contribute to modifications to the card. Thanks! =)

[MementoMori]

I think it's main error is the trample. People would be trampling all the time instead of moving. You get enough attack to kill nearly everything and don't get the engadgement damage.

Furthermore, the ability to do ranged attacks every single turn makes it fearsome. Think of it, if you are in range I can trample you, if you have friends by me I can make a ride over your heads and if you are away, well... let me shot you between the eyes.

At first I thought that it was undercosted, but the matter I think it's simply too powerful for a game.

Ah, don't take this bad. I like the custom and would play with it once in a while but I don't think it's ready for all games.

Have you thought of not letting it climb walls/hills bigger than 2 levels? That would counter most of its excess power.

[CornPuff]

I voted "no- other reason" because I think it deviates too strongly from Heroscape canon.

The figure presents too many ideas at one time, making it too special. The great thing about HS canon is that it allows your imagination to really define a character off 1 special ability, I think 4 is overkill.

Also, 2 special attacks is also a bit too much.

I would consider playing this figure if it had one less special attack, and maybe no reach. I think that would put it closer to the simplicity of standard HS units. (of course points would have to be readjusted, etc etc.)

That said, there is a lot that is positive with this custom. I'm not a complete hater :P

[Rhydderch]

I think it's main error is the trample. People would be trampling all the time instead of moving. You get enough attack to kill nearly everything and don't get the engadgement damage.

Thanks for your comments. Concerning Trample: remember he is a 2 hex figure and no figure can end its turn on the same space as another figure. Therefore the Mammoth can only trample 4 figures and that assumes you can find 4 figures in a line on the same level. Also Trample cannot be used against Huge figures. To put it into perspective Jotun can roll 4 attack dice against up to 6 figures with his Wild Swing Special Attack.

Furthermore, the ability to do ranged attacks every single turn makes it fearsome. Think of it, if you are in range I can trample you, if you have friends by me I can make a ride over your heads and if you are away, well... let me shot you between the eyes.

Well he can only use the Frozen Spear or the Trample attack. He cannot use both. Are you mainly concerned with his versatility?

At first I thought that it was undercosted, but the matter I think it's simply too powerful for a game.

Ah, don't take this bad. I like the custom and would play with it once in a while but I don't think it's ready for all games.

No worries. I prefer some feedback over none at all =)

Have you thought of not letting it climb walls/hills bigger than 2 levels? That would counter most of its excess power.

I understand your concern with his apparent freedom of movement but his size and tusks actually limit his movement quite a bit. Also I expect a large Mammoth would be able to step over hills and walls like any other figure. I could see the possibility of a height limit or lower move value for the Trample Attack but I am not sure it is necessary. I'll need to see how other people feel about the card and check in with Reaper as well.

In any case thanks again for the feedback! Silence may be golden but good constructive criticism is priceless :P

[Rhydderch]

Sorry for the double post but I felt I should respond to CP in a separate post.

I voted "no- other reason" because I think it deviates too strongly from Heroscape canon.

The figure presents too many ideas at one time, making it too special. The great thing about HS canon is that it allows your imagination to really define a character off 1 special ability, I think 4 is overkill.

Also, 2 special attacks is also a bit too much.

Hrm. Not sure what to say here since it is a matter of personal opinion. Reaper may have some points to make when he gets a chance to post though. Otherwise the abilities for Fjorn largely developed from the figure itself. I'll explain some of that below.

I would consider playing this figure if it had one less special attack, and maybe no reach. I think that would put it closer to the simplicity of standard HS units. (of course points would have to be readjusted, etc etc.)

Reach is almost a necessity for the Mammoth. As I stated before the tusks on the figure actually hang over a third hex so it places a huge constraint on his movement. It is sort of like Grimnak and his tail except the tusks are larger! So:

A) Reach makes natural sense for Fjorn since the tusks will literally Reach a figure 2 hexes away.

B) Reach is necessary so the Mammoth can attack figures in front of it. Otherwise the Mammoth is likely to end its move one hex away from its target since its tusks will get in the way and per HS rules a figure can only move into spaces the entire figure will fit into.

[MementoMori]

Concerning Trample: remember he is a 2 hex figure and no figure can end its turn on the same space as another figure. Therefore the Mammoth can only trample 4 figures and that assumes you can find 4 figures in a line on the same level. Also Trample cannot be used against Huge figures. To put it into perspective Jotun can roll 4 attack dice against up to 6 figures with his Wild Swing Special Attack.

I hadn't thought of that, and the best way to see if it is as powerful as I think is to test it. And now I'm playtesting some customs I made recently so I wont be able to help on that :(

Well he can only use the Frozen Spear or the Trample attack. He cannot use both. Are you mainly concerned with his versatility?

Yes, you got it. My worry is for versatility, this beast can do something each turn, when with HS figures many times you have to spend a round runing here and there to get to shot or slash someone. Not that range 6 is too much, but it is deadly in 6 hex diameter.

I thought of a simple remedy. What about using the spear once? Just an idea that came while writing, perhaps is not a good one.

[Rhydderch]

I thought of a simple remedy. What about using the spear once? Just an idea that came while writing, perhaps is not a good one.

Reaper had considered that option. I'm sure he'll look into it again when he gets a chance, probably when the sun rises. Unlike me he most likely sleeps at night and works in the day :P

[MementoMori]

Oh, I forgot the time :P theres 9 to 12 hour difference between you and me.

[Rhydderch]

Oh, I forgot the time :P theres 9 to 12 hour difference between you and me.

LOL! Yeah. I have to get up in 2 hours. Good night man. Thanks again for the feedback and suggestions. Have a good one!

[robaula]

nice - i've always like this mammoth figure :-)

[reapersaurus]

I really don't know what to say in response.

The people who have mentioned the power are not only people who don;t comment in the customs forum, but this power level was already discussed in my customs thread for this guy extensively -

quite simply, he's not overpowered. The concerns are not valid, due to the 210 point cost.

In fact, I am quite concerned that people who are voting do not even know the power of the official units like Charos and Jotun.

Just because a card is strong, does not mean it is unbalanced.

According to the matchup calculator (not like this means everythig, but people here tend to value it), Jotun beats Fjorn 78% of the time and Charos beats him 65% of the time (not factoring in the special attacks). This tells me Fjorn is right at the level I wanted him to be.

Most importantly, this custom is rare, in that the ability set combines to create a memorable, highly-thematic unit that fits his role very well. Most importantly, he is a blast to play and gives you options when faced with the squads that will take him down, just like they take down every other large high-costed hero.

It's too bad that very careful design and extensive discussion that addressed all this already is completely dismissed with the too-rapid click of a mouse.

One point is valid - the choice between movement and Trampling should be more distinct. This can easily be done with a tweak to Trample, limiting it to same-level movement, and increasing the normal Movement to 6.
I will modify this later when I get the interest - it doesn't matter for the outcome of this poll.

Let me say this - Fjorn should be an absoulte shoo-in to a group of balanced, thematic, and creative fun Heroscape units.
The fact that it won't make it to the Barracks is the final nail in the coffin of credibility to the entire Barracks, for me.

Any outcome that says Fyorn or the completely-balanced and thematic Selene is not playable, but the Xiron kyrie and the Cerrunos minotaur ARE ok (and many other bad outcomes to Barracks voting) makes this entire exercise a sham.

[reapersaurus]

Cornpuff - your comments are different, and more subjective.

You say official units don;t have 4 abilities.
Seriously, and quite frankly - so what?
There is no reason why they can't as long as the unit stays balanced, thematic and fun.
The Nakita Agents introduced 3 new abilities, and have more text than this card does (and the concensus is those abilities are written badly). So your comparison to official units is laid to rest with the Nakita example.

Ice movement is hardly even an ability - it's more like a thematic automatic inclusion with the character (a Mammoth and Frost Giant).
Reach has been around for a year - not new. It's also required because of the sculpt of the figure.
Trample is not new, either - just refined, like the other inclusions on this card.

Thanks for posting your thoughts, CornPuff - while I don't believe they are valid points when referring to customs, since I believe the entire purpose of customs is to accomplish things that official units don't or cannot do, I appreciate that you bothered to state your subjective objection, whereas 4 other people probably didn't look past "the card was made by reapersaurus" before clicking their "No- other reasons".

[netherspirit]

I voted yes even though I don't like the Reach power. I can't explain why, its just something about it doesn't sit right with me.

Its still a pretty good custom.

[Karkadinn]

I think what sets people off of the unit is that it has no obvious weak points. It's good at range, it's good at melee, it's good for trampling squads, it's good for wiping markers out on high-priced heroes... this doesn't necessarily make it unbalanced for the cost, but it does make it feel less thematic and more like a god mode card, which scares people off of it. By contrast, Charos may win more statistically but he has a clear disadvantage in having limited crowd control aside from Counterstrike, and no range. People look at him and go 'Okay, I can just counter him with a bunch of Minutemen, he's not so bad.' People look at the mammoth and go 'What on earth can I draft to counter this?' This is an emotional reaction more than a statistical one, but that, too, is something to take into account when designing cards, I feel.
From the pov of aesthetics and thematics, therefore, I personally feel that the card doesn't really need Frozen Spear. You could take that off, up the font size a bit, and lower the price slightly and I'm sure people would be much less intimidated by the card.

[toddrew]

Can't get rid of frozen spear - the figure demands the ability :)

I think it was discussed on the original thread with this figure having the spear require a retrieval in order to use again. Need to add another card to accomodate the additional text, though :)

Still stand by my "as is, good enough for the barracks", but if possible, requiring the spear to be retrieved would be something I would like...

[reapersaurus]

KArk and todd - good comments.

Making customs is not a popularity contest.
The second you concern yourself with whether someone looking at it for 30 seconds would be "intimidated" by it, is the instant you lose connection with the design and character you're trying to portray in HS.

Each ability is mandated in my mind by the figure and character.
Elephants trample smaller things. This is fact.
The Giant has a Spear.
The Tusks have Reach (and more importantly is required or else the figure can't work against enemies in front of it)
It is from the Ice and Snow, so has to have that Immunity.

So removing an ability, or adding more text to make the abilities more fiddly in a vain attempt to appease an intimidated customs viewer, is not an option.

Kark - you said something very important - "I think what sets people off of the unit is that it has no obvious weak points."
It is critical to realize that a 200+ point figure does not HAVE to have obvious weak points. We're not talking a cheapo squad here, that has multiple figures and attacks to work with each turn. Large Heroes SHOULD be strong - why else would you plop 200+ points into them, and put a big target marker on your army? I reject the entire notion that a very expensive hero must have a weak spot.
I find it amazing that people (not you Kark) still do not realize that heroes are not the ones to be worried about balance-wise in HS - squads are. Ranged squads.

I firmly believe that it simply does not matter what the card is like - because it's from me, and because it is creative, thematic, and big in every way, people will have unquantifiable, unsupported NO reactions.

Does this mean that balanced LArge Heroes that bring new abilities to HS and are hella fun to play should not be created?

Definately not.
It simply means that the Barracks (popularity contest) is fundamentally flawed when it comes to advancing new ideas in customs. And that's not news to anyone who has followed customs for awhile. :(

This unit is a beautiful emulation of a powerful character into HS terms. Look at the D&D card that comes with this figure - it has each of those abilities, and more. me and Ryhdd busted our humps to make this character work in HS, and got great feedback from people who's opinions I respect around here - the guys who contribute to the customs forum.

I wouldn't dream of removing one of these abilities - all of them work, are balanced, thematic, and fit the character perfectly. I don't care if the card is in a "Barracks" that includes much less quality customs than this one.
Yes, that sounds arrogant - fact is, it's true.
It amazes me that perfection is required of this custom, when seriously flawed ones are already in the Barracks. There appears to be a serious double-standard going on with the Barracks voting.

[MementoMori]

Think of this. To activate 210 points of samurais you need 3 markers and a half, to activate 2 Sgt. Drake nearly 2 markers.

But to activate this killing machine you need just one. That means you have a huge killing power for just one marker. Ok, you can kill with a bunch of ranged squads, but do you have enough markers for it? More important, are you losing the battle else for spending the markers there? Not having a weak point as stated above makes attacking this too expensive. In my oppinion no character deserves all the atention in a battle. Is like battling all agains Morgoth.

[justjohn]

I really just don't think people take everything into context before clicking the yes or no.

I voted yes earlier today, but have been at work and haven't really had time to voice my opinions on this critter.

Yes. He IS powerful. Put did you happen to look at the 3 numbers above "points"? He costs more than half of a 400 point army. If I'm spending that much on a figure, he'd better be good. This guy fits the bill. His trample is too powerful? Have you looked at Mimring? Mimring has the same basic effect, except for 8 spaces instead of 6, and that's AFTER moving up to 6 spaces. This guy has to actually move through the figures to do it, and if he flubs the attack? He's surrounded (of very close to) a bunch of angry figures.

Is his spear attack strong? Not really. It has the same attack value as a non moved 4th mass with height, and guess what, it doesn't get height bonues or bonuses from other abilities. Yes, it has a slim chance of removing an order marker. I think that's cool (no pun intended). Reaper spent a ton of time getting reach, a mechanic I know several of us have tried to word correctly, worded pretty well, if not perfectly, after a lot of work.

The snow movement is just a thematic toss in, and doesn't merrit a huge price jump. It fits the figure, as it should.

And lastly, the figure is very limited in where it can move. For starters, it's double hexed. Next, it has already been stated that the front of this figure is somewhat unaccesable to figures because of his tusks. The flip side to that, he is limited in where he can end his movement.

All in all, this is a powerfully solid unit, with not many drawbacks, why? Because it costs over 200 points. It's not indestructible, or is it the end all to be all of power, but it is very versatile, thematic, and well thought out. You get your points' worth.

[reapersaurus]

wow - now THAT's a big discussion point there, Memento - I think you would have liked all the discussions about high-powered units in HS that we've had thru the years. Did you read any of them?

In them, it has been learned that one of the huge disadvantages of Large heroes is that they only have 1 figure as opposed to multiple figures in squads.
This means they have less board control, and less attacks of course, and are more susceptible to bad rolls, and provide a big target for any number of abilities to take advantage of.
While you activate 210 points worth with each Order Marker (and that's FANTASTIC that you realize that - I've been trying to inform HSers of that concept for years), they also have to do tremendous damage to the squads to add up to 210 points worth. Most Large Heroes simply cannot do that much damage to typical competetive squads. Charos and Braxas and Jotun many times go down without killing even their own points worth of figures. :(

Fjorn is a deliberate attempt to rectify this situation. He has abilities which allow him to play competetively against squads.
Why should it be rare that a Large Hero kills their equivalent points of squads? :confused:

And hopefully the matchup calculator suggests to people that Fjorn is beaten soundly by the other Large Heroes around his point cost (Charos, Jotun).
So who exactly are people afraid for, with Fjorn?
Since other Large Heroes can take him out handily, are they worried that he will be unduly strong against squads?
Since that hasn't happened yet, I would think that people would welcome a hero that may be the first to take out his own points worth of squads, much less pay for all the Order Markers you need to put on him to do that much damage.

You say "no unit deserves all the attention in a battle." Well, this indicates a bias against large heroes and that you aren;t looking at the current official units. The current Large Heroes require this (Jotun, Charos, Braxas, etc). Every game I've seen them in, when they get in Range, all the attacks go to them until they are eliminated.

And let me congratulate you again on realizing the concentration of power that Large Heroes represent - that is the exact reason that I don;t think that 400-point units can be viable in Heroscape - it is harder and harder to balance this fact the more powerful they get.
That's why I worked hard to make Fjorn fit within the current power-level of the game, and balanced with squads and heroes.

[Rhydderch]

Think of this. To activate 210 points of samurais you need 3 markers and a half, to activate 2 Sgt. Drake nearly 2 markers.

Sorry. This argument is meaningless: the logic here is completely flawed. The cost of a figure is not only determined by its effectiveness when it takes a turn. Life and defense are amongst the factors which determine cost. Therefore a low point activation will often be better than a high point activation. In other words concentration of points is NOT THE SAME as concentration of power.

Let me illustrate. If you take a turn with Marcus you activate 100 points. You get one move/attack. If you take a turn with the Legionnaires you activate 50 points. You get to move/attack 4 times PLUS you get to bond with Marcus. So the 50 point activation is MUCH better than the 100 point activation. There is simply no way you can say 1 turn marker on Marcus is equal to 4 turn markers on the Legionnaires.

If you want to look at the War Mammoth a large portion of his points is due to his high attack and the two special attacks but he can only use one of these each turn. So in no way do you actually activate all 210 points of Mammoth.

On the subject of points the War Mammoth does have a very big drawback: his points. Any high point figure in HS is a liability. The random nature of the dice naturally limits the strength of most high cost figures. It is entirely possible for Fjorn to die a quick death because of a few bad rolls. In addition he is subject to effects such as Rod of Negation and Stare of Stone which makes him a prime target. People tend to over-estimate the power of heroes in HS. In reality squads are much more dangerous because of their low cost and the number of attacks they receive each turn. Because you have multiple figures which individually cost less points than most heroes you also lose less when you get a bad roll and order markers are not wasted as long as one figure remains on the card.

[MementoMori]

wow - now THAT's a big discussion point there, Memento - I think you would have liked all the discussions about high-powered units in HS that we've had thru the years. Did you read any of them?

Sorry, but I'm new to the forums and is allready hard to follow the huge amount of post here. Thats why I'll keep on maps & customs forums. Hope you accept me here.

My experience with large heroes is a bit short as I only have had access to MS and Wave 1. However I have played with proxies of the other official units. Other point to take into account is that my play group is limited to 4 people, thus our strategies might not include all that exist around here.

I won't continue arguing here. As said before, the most important point of designing a custom is playtesting. One can learn many things that escape from the maths of statistics while playing a game and find that 70 point cost unit is worth 40 (happened today). I would have to play Fjorn (or any other custom) at least a dozen times to tell sure of myself if it is worth its points or if it needs some tweaks.

So my humble opinion and based on the points said in this thread is that Fjorn is not ready to play. However I can be mistaken, thats why I like to see more arguments for and against.

People voting and no arguing (possitively or not) is a huge problem to make our ideas clear.

[Rhydderch]

OK since I have the template for the War Mammoth I have gone ahead and made some changes:

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10052/Mammoth_B.jpg

Changes Reaper mentioned:

-Fjorn normal move value increased from 5 to 6.
-Trample is now limited to same level movement.

Changes I added which require approval from Reaper:

-Fjorn now receives leaving engagement attacks from Huge figures when he Tramples. I felt Huge figures would have the mass to not only survive a Trample but to stand their ground and attack back as well.
-Frozen Spear range lowered from 6 to 5 in order to account for his increased base move.
-Frozen Spear only removes order markers from unique hero cards. Reaper and I had discussed the possibility of a more limited Frozen Spear but it was too hard to find room on the card before. Since then I have adopted some Wave 5 conventions. The text is therefore less exact. If anyone sees a problem with the new text please post it. Thank you.

[allskulls]

Put my "yes" in.

I don't usually like playing the big guys but don't mind playing against them (except for Dang Braxas). Fjorn seems fun, not only to use but to try and defeat.

All the talk about balancing needs to take into acount counter drafting. I have my issues with Braxas because of a couple of blind draft games that I had only medium sized figures in. With large or better filling out most of your army Braxas is not too intimidating. There are many good counters for Fjorn.

And Trample does not seem too powerful since, with a move of 6, he will only be able to effect 4 figures at the most since his ending spaces need to be empty. At least I think that's how it works. Compared to Nilfheim flying 6 spaces and attacking 3 separate figures at a range of 5. Fjorn is limited in his movement...Nilf can fly and attack in all angles (except for the blocking wings ;) )

Very balanced IMO.

[Karkadinn]

I think you're missing the point, Reaper. The Barracks isn't about new ideas. That's what the Halls is about. The Barracks is about, simply, playable ideas, and nothing more than that. If the average gamer can pick up the card and enjoy playing with it, then it's for the Barracks. The Barracks is all about the average gamer's perception, and even if that perception is different from the povs of those of us who're more obsessive and analytical, still, it's a useful thing to keep in mind. If we made the Barracks just like the Halls, with strict critera, then IMHO it would no longer be serving its purpose as a way to keep the community in touch with the common opinion.

[CornPuff]

Thanks for acknowledfing my post, Reaper.

I've lurked the customs thread for a while, but haven't posted much here because I think I have a fundamentally different taste for customs then most people.

If you merely asked me if the unit was costed correctly, I'd have a difficult time deciding. However, with the unit that Rhydderch proposed a couple posts up, I think the unit is costed correctly.

I'm thinking harder about catching up on customs, and maybe posting some of my own. My real interest in Heroscape is developing strategies and tactics that revolve around a deep understanding of the game mechanics, and it seems you custom creators discuss issues like this often. Point Concentration vs Power Concentration is a real interesting point, and its one that hardly ever makes it to the strategy forums.

[Rhydderch]

And Trample does not seem too powerful since, with a move of 6, he will only be able to effect 4 figures at the most since his ending spaces need to be empty. At least I think that's how it works.

That is correct. Trample can only affect 4 figures and that is only if your opponent is kind enough to place 4 single hex figures adjacent to one another.

Also a two-hex base will confer limited protection against Trample since Fjorn must be able to pass through the figure completely and will not always have sufficient movement to do so.

I'm thinking harder about catching up on customs, and maybe posting some of my own. My real interest in Heroscape is developing strategies and tactics that revolve around a deep understanding of the game mechanics, and it seems you custom creators discuss issues like this often. Point Concentration vs Power Concentration is a real interesting point, and its one that hardly ever makes it to the strategy forums.

I would love to see more customs. Definitely come join the fun! :P

[justjohn]

The Barracks is for "customs you can use now" be them ground breaking mechanics or beautifully simple ones. With that being said, I think this is a very well thought out custom, but I don't think that its abilities are hard to grasp for the average player.

[reapersaurus]

I think you're missing the point, Reaper. The Barracks isn't about new ideas. That's what the Halls is about. The Barracks is about, simply, playable ideas, and nothing more than that. If the average gamer can pick up the card and enjoy playing with it, then it's for the Barracks. The Barracks is all about the average gamer's perception, and even if that perception is different from the povs of those of us who're more obsessive and analytical, still, it's a useful thing to keep in mind. If we made the Barracks just like the Halls, with strict critera, then IMHO it would no longer be serving its purpose as a way to keep the community in touch with the common opinion.Well, heck - if that's the sole case, then we should line up all those customs that only change one small thing about an official unit and march them all right into the Barracks and fill it up, then.

There are PLENTY of "playable" units - just copy official ones and get a new or repainted fig and call it done then.

I'm serious - that can't be the only thing the Barracks are looking for - didn't we go over all this in the Barracks Discussion thread?

[Doc_Savage]

I voted yes - especially if the changes go down. I would like it even more if the trample move was changed to 5 and the even level restriction removed. I think that this guy could charge down a hill mashing squads along the way.

And I have the figure...

The Barracks are for cool customs you can use now. I can use this now... Thanks.

[Rhydderch]

I voted yes - especially if the changes go down. I would like it even more if the trample move was changed to 5 and the even level restriction removed. I think that this guy could charge down a hill mashing squads along the way.

Reaper has already approved the changes. In addition he is looking at a new way to word Reach which he may later add to the card if the community prefers it over the current revision.

We had considered a lowered move for Trample but felt the same level requirement was already a huge restriction. I think your idea is even better though and I think Reaper will like it too. It would make sense for the Mammoth to Trample down a slope carried by his momentum. I went ahead and tried it out. The new ability is below:

Trample Special Attack
Range Special. Attack 4.
Instead of Fjorn’s normal move he may move 5 spaces. When trampling, Fjorn may not climb up levels of terrain, does not take leaving engagement attacks from smaller figures, and may move through smaller figures. Roll 4 attack dice against any figure moved through. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.

Does that look about right Doc? What do you think Reaper? It will fit on the card =)


And I have the figure...

The Barracks are for cool customs you can use now. I can use this now... Thanks.

Yeah. I still need to get one! Reaper made me break my cardinal rule when he had me help him with the Mammoth: never make a card unless you have the figure.

[toddrew]

Changes I added /*snip*/
-Frozen Spear range lowered from 6 to 5 in order to account for his increased base move.
-Frozen Spear only removes order markers from unique hero cards. Reaper and I had discussed the possibility of a more limited Frozen Spear but it was too hard to find room on the card before.

The more I consider this figure, the less powerful it seems (as is generally the case with HS and me :) ) I know that my previous post was one in favor of text limiting the spear, but it was more from an aesthetic pov than an "is this figure costed about right" pov.

Even though the figure may be able to trample its way out of being surrounded by melee squads, its only direct defense against ranged squads (aside from positioning) is to hit them with the spear and get lucky with the D20.

I've always viewed this figure as a "hero" answer to a squad based enemy. It would be drafted when facing squad heavy armies and, while still good, not a great choice to go toe to toe against other high powered heroes (similair to Braxas in that regard.) So I think it would be a mistake to remove the spear's order marker removing ability from commons (see: Dund), and don't even think it's necessary to limit the range, despite the base movement increase, considering the inevitable movement issues this beast is going to have due to its size.

But I'll attach my "barracks disclaimer" here: still think it's good enough for the barracks as is :)

EDIT: editted for unexcusably atrocious apostrophe placement :)

[LilNewbie]

Yes, with the proposed changes. Heck, anything with oliphants is cool by me. :D

Newb.

[MementoMori]

Well, heck - if that's the sole case, then we should line up all those customs that only change one small thing about an official unit and march them all right into the Barracks and fill it up, then.

There are PLENTY of "playable" units - just copy official ones and get a new or repainted fig and call it done then.

I'm serious - that can't be the only thing the Barracks are looking for - didn't we go over all this in the Barracks Discussion thread?

I think some of you miss the point on ¨playable¨ units because you have the whole collection of HS even duplicate. Think of us, the unfortunate people that can´t barely get more than MS. I use the barracks to fill the lacks of my collection. What we need are simple-playable units, hell new powers are nice, but balanced. Proof of concept figures are nice too, but should the be in barracks... in my opinion is a drawback for people as they wont easily understand its balance.

As far as my customs go, at the moment, they are very simplistic. A tiger that jumps, lizards that creep up the walls, some army variations for AE and the like.

[reapersaurus]

Wow - uh, Memento - I think it's important to make something clear - Heroscape customs are TYPICALLY for people who have all the HS products.

The majority of them (and certainly this Barracks project and the Halls of Valhalla) are not intedned to round out a person's collection who does not have all the official product : they are intended to ADD things to the game that the official units do not.

A repainted Airborne Elite that has an already-done ability tacked onto it may be eminently playable, but I would not want it added to a feature who's intent is to put a spotlight on customs that are high quality.

I'm pretty sure the majority of customs fans that have spent time contributing to this forum would agree with this approach.

Does this help you understand all our comments in this forum?
And as a help, if you want customs that fill out your collection, than I'm sure there are MANY of them out there - look for people's repainted Master Set threads and look for the BizarroScape that I'll be re-posting soon.
Tigers that jump and lizards that crawl up the walls have been done for a long long time, and some of them are done fine and are fun - I'm sure you could find some of them if that's what you are looking for more than these more creative kinds of customs that try to bring new things to HS.

[Rhydderch]

I think some of you miss the point on ¨playable¨ units because you have the whole collection of HS even duplicate. Think of us, the unfortunate people that can´t barely get more than MS. I use the barracks to fill the lacks of my collection. What we need are simple-playable units, hell new powers are nice, but balanced. Proof of concept figures are nice too, but should the be in barracks... in my opinion is a drawback for people as they wont easily understand its balance.

As far as my customs go, at the moment, they are very simplistic. A tiger that jumps, lizards that creep up the walls, some army variations for AE and the like.

That does put you in a different position than most of us. I had not realized. So sorry to hear that :( HS is still a fun game though since its so easily expanded on with customs. I would probably suggest you take a look at some of the squads people have created. Those are usually less of a powerhouse.

Another possibility would be too slowly add the more powerful customs so you eventually round out your high cost heroes. Also many powerhouses still have a weakness and a properly fielded army of MS figures should still be able to defeat them.

Against the Mammoth you might try Agent Carr and Sgt Drake Alexander. They both have better manueverability than the Mammoth and a similar base attack. Only with Agent Carr and Sgt Drake you will have a total of 10 life versus the 6 the Mammoth has. Other huge figures such as Mimring and Grimnak could potentially lock the Mammoth down, making Trample dangerous since the Mammoth would then receive leaving engagement attacks. The Airborne Elite or any other figure with high manueverability could also be used to capture glyphs the Mammoth would have trouble with. Ranged attackers would also fare well if they capture the high ground since the Mammoth would not be able to use Trample.