Migol and the Axegrinders of Burning Forge Discussion Thread

[Grungebob]

Ok fellas

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/axegrinders_original.jpghttp://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/migol_original.jpg

[Revdyer]

<sitting back to watch the discussions unfold>

[Fourshadow]

I like the options available to the bonding power of the Axegrinders--definitely necessary for a squad that moves as slow as Zombies (hey Tarns, you're no longer the only ones as slow as the shambling undead!).

[Grungebob]

I like the options available to the bonding power of the Axegrinders--definitely necessary for a squad that moves as slow as Zombies (hey Tarns, you're no longer the only ones as slow as the shambling undead!).Migol Ironbutt is so old and slow that bonding with him slows down the whole squad.

[Land-based AE]

As I stated in the blog thread, these guys rock! And the sculpts are great as well. I'm glad they are small 3. These are certainly the units I am most excited about for wave 9.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

These guys look awesome!!! They'll be 4/4 against Dragons / Q brothers etc. If you manage to get Migol up there too with deadly strike...bye, bye soulborg! Nicely done truth and co.

[Uprising]

Oh my god. Best sculpts EVER!!

[SymphonyScaper]

I like how they went to Aquilla, and not Ullar or Jandar. Aquilla now has enough figures to create an army with, and throw in some Ullar and you're all set.:D

The option to bond with a Dwarf hero, or not to and get +2 to their movement is nice. Sure, you lose the bonding if you get the +2, but there are times when a quick burst of speed is necessary. Fearless Advantage is really cool! Rush them in, and take those big figures down with 4 attacks of 4!

[Super Platapus]

As I stated in the blog thread, these guys rock! And the sculpts are great as well. I'm glad they are small 3. These are certainly the units I am most excited about for wave 9.-quote


Me too!! i love Migol's abilities!! one shield defens will help him to stay alive and in the fignt for a while longer, and deadly strike will be great for, just ablut any creature. I think the dwarves are gonna be great for swarming big characters like the dragons, i like that... Dwarves VS. Dragons.

[gorthan313]

I LOVE the recycling of OSD!

[Arcus]

The overall look of these figures is quite cool. I'm surprised Migol doesn't have "Fearless Advantage". I know it would bump his point total up, but as the leader I think it would sense. I'm sure it was kicked around in play testing though so if he doesn't have it, it was for good reason.

[FOOTBALLDUDE88]

These guys have got to be the best ones yet. I love the fact that they are small 3 and that they went to aquilla. I also think that dwarven stratigic bonding is the best bonding power of all bonding powers exept maybe Sir Gilbert and the Knights. I can't wait until these guys hit the stores.

[Obsidian]

Wow! I would love to use these guys individually. Then you add in Bonding! I thought I was excited about TBR, but I can't wait to draft these guys. Two squads plus Ironwill is only 250 points.

[nyys]

Love squads of four.

So how many of use are going to mistakenly think that Eldgrim goes well with these guys because he's a dwarf? :)

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Love squads of four.

So how many of use are going to mistakenly think that Eldgrim goes well with these guys because he's a dwarf? :)

New house rule! They have 2 guys to bond with now!

[gorthan313]

Eldgrim was originally a short human. Now, he's a tall dwarf!

[clancampbell]

Easily my favorite hero and unit combo of wave 9 thus far. Aquilla can finally feild an army of her own. Migol is a very stout hero, and the dwarves are awesome, and some of the best looking figs.
I also love the fact the bonding could still be usefull after the hero is gone, or even feild the dwarves without Migol.

[nyys]

Deadly strike seems like an odd ability for Migol IMO, but then again it's pretty cool thematically when it's a David vs Goliath scenario.

[fomox]

Very, very cool.

110 seems like a lot, but with 4 defense and One Shield, he's going to be durable. And deadly strike should be enough versus the large/huge figures without fearless advantage.

The bonding option is a very nice addition, and means you don't HAVE to take the bonding hero with the squads. Nice flexibility, both in-game and during army selection.

Nicely done!

I think I have my Dragon Wars army ready now.

[A_Train]

So how many of use are going to mistakenly think that Eldgrim goes well with these guys because he's a dwarf? :)


Nukatha

[nyys]

Deathstalkers take another hit... :(

[skyknight]

I loved playing these guys during testing...they were an absolute blast. I used to fight Mohicans and Dwarves allof the time against eachother. I will let you all figure out who would usually win since I don't want to jade anyone one way or the other.;)...These guys are a great play and just all out fun....not my favorite of wave 9 but right up there!!!!

[padlock]

I think that 2 squads of Axegrinders will easily be more then a match for Q9, even without Migol!

[fomox]

I loved playing these guys during testing...they were an absolute blast. I used to fight Mohicans and Dwarves allof the time against eachother. I will let you all figure out who would usually win since I don't want to jade anyone one way or the other.;)...These guys are a great play and just all out fun....not my favorite of wave 9 but right up there!!!!

Why do I have the sense that this roll out is just building up steam to something even bigger?

(I'll take Dwarves over Mohicans, by a long shot.)

[Retlaw]

Ok, these are my favorite from wave 9 so far. I like the sculps and the new bonding or extra move ability is great. I can see these getting a lot of use in our games.

[Hal0fan117]

Yay, dwarves!

I love the new dwarves. They rock! I think they're a bit too situational to live up to their points vs most competitive armies, since they'll probably die easily to ranged units, but I'll still use 'em. More expensive than I thought.

Either way, these are my favorite aquilla figures for sure!

[Grungebob]

These guys have got to be the best ones yet. I love the fact that they are small 3 and that they went to aquilla. I also think that dwarven stratigic bonding is the best bonding power of all bonding powers exept maybe Sir Gilbert and the Knights. I can't wait until these guys hit the stores.I think what you're seeing is an adjustment in the flexibility of certain powers so that point costing is more consistent. If all bonding had been designed this way years ago, I think the game would work slightly better. That said, this ability was not as easy as it looks to pin down.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Oh my god. Best sculpts EVER!!
I'm right there with you, Up.
I think they are awesome sculpts! Blackbeard and Redbeard look incredible!

Love these guys and they can scale small cliffs like nobody's business.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

I think these guys are just plain cool! Against other bonding armies like Romans, Disciplined SB, Knights, Heavies, they're ok. But meta-gamingly speaking against the likes of Nilf, Q9, Zelrig, Q10, Braxas (maybe), etc, they are squad of 4 with 4/4 and very easily 6 move!

[quozl]

So I'm guessing that if Migol Ironwill dies or you elect not to take him in your army that the Dwarves cannot add to their Move since they have no Dwarf Hero to bond with anymore. Is that correct?

[Pilgrim]

And the icing on the cake: the Dwarven Strategic Bonding says that you may first move any Dwarven hero you control.

Translation: More Dwarves on the way.

:excited:

[Hal0fan117]

The new bonding rocks. It let's them be flexible, and when Migol Ironwill dies, they aren't totally worthless.

But, they're stats without Migol (6,1,3,3) seem a little low against medium and small figures. I can't see these guys killing rats, and they don't seem to match up well against marro or 4th mass + knights. Lack of range kills them.

That said, they're way better than I expected. Migol kicks butt with his one shield defense and deadly strike. I think he's one of the best 110 point heroes yet, right up there with RotV's sgt. Drake. I'm definitely going to enjoy these guys ;)

[A_Train]

So I'm guessing that if Migol Ironwill dies or you elect not to take him in your army that the Dwarves cannot add to their Move since they have no Dwarf Hero to bond with anymore. Is that correct?


I'm curious to the response to this. I hadn't thought of it this way, but see how it could be read as such.

[Hal0fan117]

So I'm guessing that if Migol Ironwill dies or you elect not to take him in your army that the Dwarves cannot add to their Move since they have no Dwarf Hero to bond with anymore. Is that correct?


Before taking a turn with Axegrinders of Burning Forge you may take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control. If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders move number.


I'm going to say yes, they do get their move. If it had said, "If you choose not to" then I would say no.

[nyys]

So I'm guessing that if Migol Ironwill dies or you elect not to take him in your army that the Dwarves cannot add to their Move since they have no Dwarf Hero to bond with anymore. Is that correct?


I'm curious to the response to this. I hadn't thought of it this way, but see how it could be read as such.

My interpretation is that you can still take the extra two move. The card says "If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control..."

If Migol is not in my army or is dead, then I can't take a turn with him, therefore I did not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero and can moVe the Dwarves the extra two hexes.

[Knight_Of_Einar]

Is it safe to say that the Dwarves are valhalla natives, assuming that this Magol is the descendent of the corps in the tomb.

[Sweetcurse]

I like them. Very simple and straight forward as a dwarf should be. It's weird, but I almost wish they didn't have the climb x3. That disadvantage is very dwarfy. Also, I was really expecting them to be "tough." I just thought that their main deal would be survivability. I love them don't take me wrong, I just thought their defense and powers would lean more toward being hard to kill.

[Lord Pyre]

Wow! These guys are awesome! I thought it was going to be hard to beat the Mohicans great sculpts and abilities....


Well, thew sculpts are beaten. I think the Mohicans abilities are cool, but these guys are better.

[Hal0fan117]

Or maybe he IS the corpse 0_o

I always thought he was anyway. If they are of Vallhallan decent, then maybe Aquilla does only recruit natives (Maybe Master Woo trained in the Jungle after leaving the Ullar monks?)

[Matthias Maccabeus]

I like them. Very simple and straight forward as a dwarf should be. It's weird, but I almost wish they didn't have the climb x3. That disadvantage is very dwarfy. Also, I was really expecting them to be "tough." I just thought that their main deal would be survivability. I love them don't take me wrong, I just thought their defense and powers would lean more toward being hard to kill.

Migol has 4 defense, 5 life, and one shield defense. I would say that's pretty tough to kill.

[Sweetcurse]

Sorry, I meant the squadies.

[Sherman Davies]

I like them. Very simple and straight forward as a dwarf should be. It's weird, but I almost wish they didn't have the climb x3. That disadvantage is very dwarfy.

I agree about the Climb x3, but a 3-height figure, particularly a melee figure, without it would be seriously handicapped on the vast majority of maps. I'm willing to accept it as a thematic concession in the interest of playability.

I also love that the fearless personality I've used in some of my customs is now an official one. Awesome!

[gorthan313]

I like them. Very simple and straight forward as a dwarf should be. It's weird, but I almost wish they didn't have the climb x3. That disadvantage is very dwarfy.

I agree about the Climb x3, but a 3-height figure, particularly a melee figure, without it would be seriously handicapped on the vast majority of maps. I'm willing to accept it as a thematic concession in the interest of playability.

I also love that the fearless personality I've used in some of my customs is now an official one. Awesome!


So NOW you have every right to sue WOTC:lol:!

[Knight_Of_Einar]

Or maybe he IS the corpse 0_o

I always thought he was anyway. If they are of Vallhallan decent, then maybe Aquilla does only recruit natives (Maybe Master Woo trained in the Jungle after leaving the Ullar monks?)

But how does that explain the River tribe?.....The worl..*cough cough* Valhalla, may never know.

[quozl]

So I'm guessing that if Migol Ironwill dies or you elect not to take him in your army that the Dwarves cannot add to their Move since they have no Dwarf Hero to bond with anymore. Is that correct?


I'm curious to the response to this. I hadn't thought of it this way, but see how it could be read as such.

My interpretation is that you can still take the extra two move. The card says "If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control..."

If Migol is not in my army or is dead, then I can't take a turn with him, therefore I did not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero and can more the Dwarves the extra two hexes.

Right but if he is dead or not in your army, do you control a dwarf hero? Is that required for the extra move?

[Lord Pyre]

Raelin 2.0 finally gets a personality buddy. Migol is Resolute!

[Sweetcurse]

Right, I do agree that it is a playability issue. Height 3 without climb x2 would be very, very hard to play. Many maps would be impossible to traverse and so it HAS to be there.

Was this an issue in playtesting Truth?

As I said, I love them, dwarves are my favorite fantasy creatures. It's not that I was WISHING for more tough guys, just that that is what I thought is would be. I'm fine with this, just not what I expected. I expected them to be like 2 attack and 4 defense or more or some power to make them survive attacks. But this is cool too.

Another question:

Truth and GB, is this wave designed as a sort of "Dream Wave?" It seems to contain all the fan wishes. It's like a wave designed ONNLY for the fans. Was that the idea? Also, you guys already playtesting the next wave?

[EyeOfSauron]

Raelin 2.0 finally gets a personality buddy. Migol is Resolute!

Nice call. I love these guys!

[nyys]

So I'm guessing that if Migol Ironwill dies or you elect not to take him in your army that the Dwarves cannot add to their Move since they have no Dwarf Hero to bond with anymore. Is that correct?


I'm curious to the response to this. I hadn't thought of it this way, but see how it could be read as such.

My interpretation is that you can still take the extra two move. The card says "If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control..."

If Migol is not in my army or is dead, then I can't take a turn with him, therefore I did not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero and can more the Dwarves the extra two hexes.

Right but if he is dead or not in your army, do you control a dwarf hero? Is that required for the extra move?

Yeah, the 'you control' part did give me pause, but I still think (hope) you can get the extra move without a Dwarf Hero.

[Super Platapus]

I imagin that they would not put on that handicap of having to get a dwarf hero to use this ability, it just adds to their strength when they do have him around

[EyeOfSauron]

I think what you're seeing is an adjustment in the flexibility of certain powers so that point costing is more consistent. If all bonding had been designed this way years ago, I think the game would work slightly better. That said, this ability was not as easy as it looks to pin down.

Any chance of all previous bondings having the "strategic" keyword added to them?

Kind of like Taelord Stealth Flying? :)

[Knight_Of_Einar]

All I know is I cant wait to git my hands on a couple squads of the Axegrinders., the amount will also very depending on the repulsers.

[Sweetcurse]

What's a "platapus"?

[Knight_Of_Einar]

What's a "platapus"?

It is a animal.

[Rich10]

I find it interesting that Migol and Crixus are evenly matched against each other.
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/matchup.pl?quickp=27&ptp=90&psquad=single&herop1=5&squadp1=1&ps=0&p2=5&p3=3&quickq=custom&ptq=---&qsquad=single&heroq1=5&squadq1=1&qs=0&q2=2&q3=4&q4=1&p47=1&q47=1&pmoff=0&qmoff=0&pattlim=0&qattlim=0&pmdef=0&qmdef=0&p0=0&q0=0&request=findprob

[Super Platapus]

It is a cool animal, and has big spikes under it's back legs, that can inject venom into predators

[RabSheila]

What's a "platapus"?

It's the Tuesday lunch special at Bob's Greasy Diner. Not to be confused with a Platypus (which is Thursday's).

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I want to see the miniatures next to an average height HS figure.
Wonder if they'll look the part?

[Aldin]

I think the movement is pretty open and shut. Whether or not you control a Dwarf Hero, if you aren't taking a turn with one you get the +2 to move.

~Aldin, speedily

[Creationist]

Thes guys seem like a good Q9 counter. with 4/4 against him and 6 move, they have the possibility of shutting him down pretty quickly.

[Jexik]

These guys are rad.

My thoughts (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=831643&postcount=206) on how they fit into my Order Marker theory...

I think it's interesting how Aquilla has added two new personalities already: Fearsome and Fearless.

I think this wave is shaping up to be the coolest since Wave 2.

[Grungebob]

Right, I do agree that it is a playability issue. Height 3 without climb x2 would be very, very hard to play. Many maps would be impossible to traverse and so it HAS to be there.

Was this an issue in playtesting Truth?

As I said, I love them, dwarves are my favorite fantasy creatures. It's not that I was WISHING for more tough guys, just that that is what I thought is would be. I'm fine with this, just not what I expected. I expected them to be like 2 attack and 4 defense or more or some power to make them survive attacks. But this is cool too.

Another question:

Truth and GB, is this wave designed as a sort of "Dream Wave?" It seems to contain all the fan wishes. It's like a wave designed ONNLY for the fans. Was that the idea? Also, you guys already playtesting the next wave?You are seeing a lot more of truth's influence in this wave.

[padlock]

Comparing these guys to the Heavy Gruts, I'd say that against small or medium figures, the Gruts are better since they have more bonding options and their bonding heroes boost their stats. Against large and huge, the advantage clearly goes to the dwarfs.

[J4Jandar]

After Eldgrim bites the dust he will still be able to bond with Migol via his spirit power giving him and extra move.

I will always think of Eldgrim as a Dwarf at heart. :)

[EyeOfSauron]

I think it's interesting how Aquilla has added two new personalities already: Fearsome and Fearless.

I think this wave is shaping up to be the coolest since Wave 2.

Agreed. Seems like a bit of zen balance?

Updated Definitive Personalities Thread: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25130
(http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25130)

[J4Jandar]

I just can't wait 'till repulsors are known to the scaping world. I really hope they are Jandar since they supposedly aide the Omnicrons though would not frown upon them being Vydar since he has the tech hook up and would solidify an alliance between the two generals a bit more.

[KCU Master 2007]

I think the movement is pretty open and shut. Whether or not you control a Dwarf Hero, if you aren't taking a turn with one you get the +2 to move.

~Aldin, speedily

I wish I could believe that this was the case. However, that clause in there, "any Dwarf hero you control" makes me really believe that if Migol is not in your army you don't get the bonus. I don't know where I stand on when Migol dies although I think, if my previous assumption is right, then you wouldn't get the bonus once Migol is dead.

GB, please tell me I'm wrong.

[skyknight]

I like them. Very simple and straight forward as a dwarf should be. It's weird, but I almost wish they didn't have the climb x3. That disadvantage is very dwarfy.

I agree about the Climb x3, but a 3-height figure, particularly a melee figure, without it would be seriously handicapped on the vast majority of maps. I'm willing to accept it as a thematic concession in the interest of playability.

I also love that the fearless personality I've used in some of my customs is now an official one. Awesome!


So NOW you have every right to sue WOTC:lol:!

Which is exactly why all of us steer 100% clear of the customs sections;)

[J4Jandar]

I was wrong...;)

[Sokol]

Wow, Migol is tough! I too love their sculpts and abilities. I see me buying more dwarves than any of the other squads in this wave.

[Aldin]

*sigh*

Okay, I'll toss it on the rules team thread...

~Aldin, who thinks you're all being silly ;)

[Jexik]

*sigh*

Okay, I'll toss it on the rules team thread...

~Aldin, who thinks you're all being silly ;)

I'm with Aldin. I don't think you need a hero to get the bonus.

[J4Jandar]

You're more than likely right though since the card reads "You may take a turn with a Dwarven hero.". I retract my previous statement.

[padlock]

I
I think the card clearly states that you must be in control of a Dwarven hero to get the bonus.

Again, GB, say it aint so! :cry:

How are you coming to this interpretation? I think the card clearly states the opposite.

It says "If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number".

Nowhere in that sentence does it state, or even insinuate, that you need to control a Dwarven hero to get the movement bonus. What am I missing?

[J4Jandar]

I
I think the card clearly states that you must be in control of a Dwarven hero to get the bonus.

Again, GB, say it aint so! :cry:

How are you coming to this interpretation? I think the card clearly states the opposite.

It says "If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number".

Nowhere in that sentence does it state, or even insinuate, that you need to control a Dwarven hero to get the movement bonus. What am I missing?
Read my revised post...;)

[Poseidon's trident]

I am with everybody who says that you do get the move bonus if you don't draft Migol. However, I can also see why people think you can't get the move bonus. Btw these sculpts are up there with the very best of the best. I know TBR is jealous.

[Just_a_Bill]

~Aldin, who thinks you're all being silly ;)
I'm with Aldin. I don't think you need a hero to get the bonus.
These guys are right; you don't need a Dwarf Hero for the +2.

If I say "you can come over to my house and play Heroscape if you don't knock over any old ladies on the way", and you say "sorry dude, but I couldn't find any old ladies to not knock over, so I guess I don't get to play", then the only reason you don't get to play Heroscape at my house today is because you are a rules lawyer with poor logic. ;-)

Any chance of all previous bondings having the "strategic" keyword added to them?
No way. "Strategic" is not a keyword, just a descriptive adjective. Adding it to a special power title wouldn't change anything. You'd have to individually errata the power text on something like 15 different army cards. I would not want to see a mess like that.

[Buddy Lee]

I'm sorry but you are all wrong.

If you don't control (i.e. have ACTIVE on the battlefield) a Dwarven Hero then you do not get the movement bonus. It is an either or proposition dependent upon the the possession of a Dwarven Hero in your army, and alive on the battlefield.

Think of it this way. To get bonding with any other unit you have to have the appropriate bonding hero (champion, beast, etc.). If you do not draft that hero then you never get the bonding. Why would you get this bonus if the underlying bonding doesn't exist?

I am so confident in this interpretation that if I am wrong I will donate (and provide proof in this thread) $500 dollars to the President Obama re-election campaign.

'Nuff Said.

Buddy Lee

[Uprising]

I gotta agree with Buddy Lee. Though it might not count for much with lots of people here, thematically, there is no way Dwarves can move with a 6 and Elves a 5.

God, I'm such a nerd for even saying that, lol.

[Aldin]

I am so confident in this that if I am wrong I will donate (and provide proof in this thread) $500 dollars to the President Obama reelection campaign.

:shock:

You know... every time I think this place has finished surprising me another gun-toting nut job shows up to prove me wrong.

~Aldin, wondering if having Buddy Lee contribute to his campaign will cause bad press for the Pres

[nyys]

Get your wallet out.

[Sweetcurse]

Incredibly, I'm with gun nut on ths one.

[EyeOfSauron]

Any chance of all previous bondings having the "strategic" keyword added to them?
No way. "Strategic" is not a keyword, just a descriptive adjective. Adding it to a special power title wouldn't change anything. You'd have to individually errata the power text on something like 15 different army cards. I would not want to see a mess like that.

It was more or less a joke. But I do agree with :gb: that it would have been cool if other bondings had this feature (regardless of the final outcome of the rule lawyers and BuddyLee's $500)

[demon_llama]

To chime in my $0.02 on this bonding issue, I think the spirit of the bonding ability was that you gain the bonus move if you don't do something with a dwarf hero. I try and tell new players not to read into the cards (like people do with all those CCG's that are out). Just play as the card says. On initial read, the ability seems simple enough; either get a +2 to move or take a turn with a dwarf hero. IMHO.

EDIT: Oh, and awsome sculpts and characters. I look forward to seeing the real thing. Thanks...

[NecroBlade]

I'm with Buddy Lee...donating $500 to Obama. You get the +2 Move if you don't have a Dwarf Hero with which to take a turn.

On the figures themselves, I like Migol's combination of powers. The Dwarves seem OK.

[Sarpedon]

RATIONALIZATION ALERT!!! RATIONALIZATION ALERT!!! (No logic allowed)

The Dwarves, if their hero moves, have to wait up for him and thus are slow. If he doesn't move, he "inspires" them to move faster and leave him behind.

The Dwarves are "faster" than most elves because the (hero) elves are wearing armour or carrying big sticks/wands/staffs. Dwarves - because of their astounding (there's that word again, GB) strength - are not slowed down much by their armour whereas elves are slowed down a lot.

The Aubrien (squad) Elves are encumbered by their bows, but, when inspired can frenzy, thus moving far more than the dwarves. (Hero) Syvarris, for example spends his extra energy on a second attack.

The Dwarves have Climb x 2 because they have mountain lore. If they focus on climbing and leave their hero behind, they can climb higher and faster.

Migol doesn't do much for the dwarves themselves, so they're not reluctant to leave him behind (often, very).

The Dwarves fight for Aquilla because there aren't any humans, elves, goblins, orcs, etc. under this general. Those other groups are always stealing dwarven gold.

Aquilla's colour is gold. Dwarves dig that.

[Obsidian]

I have to plant my flag firmly in the "get the +2 even if you don't control a dwarf hero." If you don't have a dwarf hero then you didn't take a turn with a dwarf hero that you control before the axegrinders, so you get a movement bonus. It seems really simple to me.

[Clarissimus]

"If you do not take a turn with any dwarven hero you control" could easily have been worded "If you control a dwarven hero but do not take a turn with him" if that were the intention of the designer. I think this is an open-and-shut case.

[Obsidian]

I'm with Buddy Lee...donating $500 to Obama. You get the +2 Move if you don't have a Dwarf Hero with which to take a turn.

On the figures themselves, I like Migol's combination of powers. The Dwarves seem OK.


I think that you actually disagree with Buddy Lee.

[Buddy Lee]

Take out the highlighted words in the following and ya'll (the move +2 regardless of hero crowd) are correct:

"If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number"

Leave them in and you are wrong.

My deal still stands.

Buddy Lee

[Retlaw]

This is getting a little ridiculous.

Saying you have to have the dwarf hero to be able to get the movement bonus is reading something into the ability that isn't there. It says "If you don’t not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders’ move number." If I don't have the hero, I can't take the turn, so obviously I get the movement bonus because I didn't do the first thing -- it is a simple either/or. No where does it say I have to have the hero for the bonus -- it only says if I don't use a hero, then I get the bonus.

The interpretation that you have to have the dwarf hero to get the move bonus would be like saying you have to have a hero to use a squad with regular bonding since the regular bonding says "Before taking a turn with "bonding squad", you may first take a turn with "bonded hero"." So if I didn't have the "bonded hero" to take a turn with, would I not get a turn with the "bonding" squad? It says take a turn with the hero before I take a turn with the squad. Obviously this isn't how regular Bonding works, so why would one assume the Stategic Bonding is any different and requires the hero to be present?

[Aldin]

I'm with Buddy Lee...donating $500 to Obama. You get the +2 Move if you don't have a Dwarf Hero with which to take a turn.

On the figures themselves, I like Migol's combination of powers. The Dwarves seem OK.


I think that you actually disagree with Buddy Lee.

Mostly I think Necro just likes Obama :roll:

~Aldin, politically incorrect

[Rich10]

Although I hate to contribute to Obama's re-election, I have to disagree with your interpretation. The card says, "If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number." If instead the card said, "If you do not take a turn with any Krug, add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number." In this case, whether you had Krug and he died or you never had Krug in your army, you add 2 to the move if you don't take a turn with Krug. If the concern here is with any Dwarf Hero you control, I would think that the "you control" comment reflects that WOTC didn't want players to think that you could take a turn with a Dwarf Hero that you didn't control.

[clancampbell]

I'm sorry but you are all wrong.

If you don't control (i.e. have ACTIVE on the battlefield) a Dwarven Hero then you do not get the movement bonus. It is an either or proposition dependent upon the the possession of a Dwarven Hero in your army, and alive on the battlefield.

Think of it this way. To get bonding with any other unit you have to have the appropriate bonding hero (champion, beast, etc.). If you do not draft that hero then you never get the bonding. Why would you get this bonus if the underlying bonding doesn't exist?

I am so confident in this interpretation that if I am wrong I will donate (and provide proof in this thread) $500 dollars to the President Obama re-election campaign.

'Nuff Said.

Buddy Lee

Wow, looking forward towards your donation.

I think people are reading into the "you control" part too much. Its says "you may" there's the key, you may take a turn with any dwarf hero you control. I'm pretty sure you get the movement bonus if you do not control the hero, or he's dead. I'll wait for an offical ruling.

[Aldin]

And just to be clear, I have submitted the question to the rules team.

~Aldin, waiting for the answer like manna from heaven

[Sarpedon]

I think the dwarves move only 4 if the hero is dead/undrafted. The reason is that, if they could normally move 6 without their hero, their card would read something like:

"If you take a turn with a dwarven hero you control, the squad's move is reduced to 4".

The number (4) which appears on the right side of the card is their normal move (otherwise, they would have put a 6 there). If you forego moving your dwarf hero, then you can move your squad faster. In order to "forego" something, it must be an existing option. If it is not possible, then you are not sacrificing or foregoing anything to get a faster squad. In order for it to be a possible alternative, you must have a live dwarf hero in your army.

[padlock]

I'm sorry but you are all wrong.

If you don't control (i.e. have ACTIVE on the battlefield) a Dwarven Hero then you do not get the movement bonus. It is an either or proposition dependent upon the the possession of a Dwarven Hero in your army, and alive on the battlefield.

Think of it this way. To get bonding with any other unit you have to have the appropriate bonding hero (champion, beast, etc.). If you do not draft that hero then you never get the bonding. Why would you get this bonus if the underlying bonding doesn't exist?

I am so confident in this interpretation that if I am wrong I will donate (and provide proof in this thread) $500 dollars to the President Obama re-election campaign.

'Nuff Said.

Buddy Lee

I'm certain you are wrong.

As worded, the condition on the card is: if not A, then B

Where A is to activate a Dwarf Hero you control
and B is to get the 2 move bonus.

Clearly you are not fulfilling condition A whether you:
-Have a Dwarf hero and choose not to activate him OR
-Don't have a Dwarf hero

In either case, you get to do B.

[Obsidian]

Examine the statement: If you don't consume poison (that happens to be in your possession), then you won't die.

If I have no poison in my possession, then I have no poison to consume. I cannot consume poison, so I don't consume poison. I won't die.

[Buddy Lee]

The way ya'll are interpreting this is mistaken.

What ya'll are sayin' is that the Axegrinders actually have a move of 6. And a move of 4 when there is a hero present. This such an resounding change from any previous standards in the game. If I do not draft a Dwarf Hero, I never control him. If I don't control him I never get the bonus. Simple logic.

I can not believe that a units "base" movement is dependent upon whether I have an appropriate hero or not.

I await WotC clarification on this issue.

Buddy Lee

EDIT: Seems Sarpedon beat me to some of my reasoning. Good job. Rep coming

[Jexik]

Although I still think I'm on Aldin's side (+2 move even if no hero), Buddy's interpretation does make Migol more like Marcus, Gilbert, and other Leaders (that's even his class). His presence would add movement to the dwarves in a roundabout way.

:popcorn:

[padlock]

Your mistake is you're trying to interpret the meaning of the card based on your expectations rather then taking the wording of the card at face value.

There is NO logical ambiguity here. You get the extra move without the hero.

[Sarpedon]

Dang, Jexik! I get no cred! LOL

Edit: Thanks, Buddy Lee, right back atcha for being cool.

[Poseidon's trident]

I think I am still on the side with move bonus with no hero but just barely because Buddy's(and Sarpedon's) interpretation makes sense. I want to see what the rule is. There might be a chance where Obama won't get his $500.

[NecroBlade]

What defense bonus?

[Poseidon's trident]

Sorry, I accidently typed defense instead of move. Thanks, Necro.

[stay_golden_PONYBOY]

No $500 for Obama-

No Migol, no bonus-

"you control" prevents taking the extra moves if Migol is mindshackled

[Darth Vader]

Wow, these guys look like they are going to be fun. Migol looks really good, and the axegrinders should be great as well. I did not predict them going to Aquilla, but they should fit in nicely.

[Just_a_Bill]

Your mistake is you're trying to interpret the meaning of the card based on your expectations rather then taking the wording of the card at face value.
Bingo. I believe this is what underlies all the arguments on that side.

If the designers had wanted it to work The Obama Way, they could have said something like "If you control a Dwarf Hero but do not take a turn with him using Dwarven Strategic Bonding ...", or simply added a conditional statement at the end, "You must control a Dwarf Hero to be able to add 2 using Dwarven Strategic Bonding".

[Sarpedon]

Post #86 makes everything clear. (snicker)

[Buddy Lee]

No $500 for Obama-

No Migol, no bonus-

"you control" prevents taking the extra moves if Migol is mindshackled

However, should you mindshackle your opponent's Migol. . .

:twisted:

Buddy Lee

[clancampbell]

If you must have a dwarven hero in order to get the movement bonus, I think that would make me a little less excited about these guys.

I'm still excited about wave 9 mind you.

Of course, all this rules lawering is dampening my excitment.

[gorthan313]

Wow, these guys look like they are going to be fun. Migol looks really good, and the axegrinders should be great as well. I did not predict them going to Aquilla, but they should fit in nicely.


Let me guess.....These new dwarves are beasts;)!

[Q9 Kid]

It says if you don't take a turn with a dwarf hero you control then you get +2 move. If I didn't have a dwarf hero to begin with, then I obviously didn't take a turn with him, and therefore would get the plus two movement.

P.S Somebody should make a list of who believes you do get the movement and who believes you don't.

[Sweetcurse]

I like the fact that they wouldn't be able to move six by themselves without a hero present. It;s very thematic. I don;t want Dwarves with six move running around without having to have something or give something in return for the extra move.

[Sarpedon]

Everyone on the other side seems to want move 6 to come standard with the dwarves. Not likely!

[Sweetcurse]

Obamas:

Buddy
Sweetcurse
Sarpedon

Palins:
Aldin
Necro

[Sweetcurse]

Everyone on the other side seems to want move 6 to come standard with the dwarves. Not likely!


Exactly!

[ollie]

Sign me up for +2 move when you don't have Migol side. I really don't follow the logic of the other interpretation.

[Creationist]

Personally, I will use them with Migol at most times for theme, so it probs wont come into play. If I use them alone however, that might be a different story.

[Q9 Kid]

No +2
Buddy
Sweetcurse

Yes +2
Aldin
Necro
Q9 Kid
Ollie

[padlock]

Sign me up for +2 move when you don't have Migol side. I really don't follow the logic of the other interpretation.

That's because there is none ;)

[clancampbell]

I like the fact that they wouldn't be able to move six by themselves without a hero present. It;s very thematic. I don;t want Dwarves with six move running around without having to have something or give something in return for the extra move.

They are giving something in return for the move. Giving up the ability to bond with a hero, a pretty stout hero if you ask me.
Lots of us have stated that bonding is a very powerfull tool, these guys would give that up for some extra move.

[Buddy Lee]

Obamas:

Buddy
Sweetcurse
Sarpedon

Palins:
Aldin
Necro

Wait, how the he|| did my interpretation become the "Obama Option" ?

I would think that should be reserved for the "wrong" side.

;)

Buddy Lee

[Sweetcurse]

Obamas:

Buddy
Sweetcurse
Sarpedon

Palins:
Aldin
Necro
Q9 kid
ollie
clancampbell

[Sweetcurse]

Sorry buddy, I made the list first and you are now officially an Obamagirl.

[NecroBlade]

Question for the Obama haters:

You're saying the Dwarves can't get +2 Move if you don't control Migol because he isn't there to inspire them. What about when you did control him but he has been killed? Would they not still be inspired by his memory? Would they not go into a Dwarven rage at his death and charge across the battlefield?

Point Obama.

EDIT: Wait, how the hell did I end up on P...Pa...I'm not even going to say that name.

[clancampbell]

I guess I'm with the Palin's.

[padlock]

Everyone on the other side seems to want move 6 to come standard with the dwarves. Not likely!


Exactly!

This is exactly what I was talking about. You're basing your interpretation on your expectations, instead of looking at what the card actually says.

[Buddy Lee]

Sorry buddy, I made the list first and you are now officially an Obamagirl.

"I've got a crush on Obama."

That's just sooo wrong.

Buddy Lee

[Sweetcurse]

Question for the Obama haters:

You're saying the Dwarves can't get +2 Move if you don't control Migol because he isn't there to inspire them. What about when you did control him but he has been killed? Would they not still be inspired by his memory? Would they not go into a Dwarven rage at his death and charge across the battlefield?

Point Obama.

EDIT: Wait, how the hell did I end up on P...Pa...I'm not even going to say that name.



They lose the option?

Oh, amd for the record, I ain't donating anything if I'm wrong. That dude is already rich and I have too many games to buy.

[NecroBlade]

I know that's their interpretation, SC, but it doesn't mesh at all with their "inspiration" idea. In fact it flies in its face.

[gorthan313]

Wow. This thread currently has more people viewing it than I EVER recall the W9 speculation thread having!

[clancampbell]

Everyone on the other side seems to want move 6 to come standard with the dwarves. Not likely!


Exactly!

This is exactly what I was talking about. You're basing your interpretation on your expectations, instead of looking at what the card actually says.

They don't have a move 6, they only get that after opting not to bond. The base move of 4 is there if they do bond, or are affected by Morsbane.

[Obsidian]

Obamas:

Buddy
Sweetcurse
Sarpedon

Palins:
Aldin
Necro
Q9 kid
ollie
clancampbell
Obsidian

[padlock]

Everyone on the other side seems to want move 6 to come standard with the dwarves. Not likely!


Exactly!

This is exactly what I was talking about. You're basing your interpretation on your expectations, instead of looking at what the card actually says.

They don't have a move 6, they only get that after opting not to bond. The base move of 4 is there if they do bond, or are affected by Morsbane.

No! They have a base move of 4 with a special ability that adds +2 to it UNLESS they bond with a hero. It's just that simple.

[Syvaris]

Just because i can't help it


Can the dwarves see Russia from there house?



;)



I agree with the all around plus 2 (even though it doesn't make much sense), it just follows the good old KISS method(Keep it simple stupid).




You know it would have been easier for them to get a bonus from migol on his card but it only activates when they are not bonded to him.

[Sweetcurse]

I know that's their interpretation, SC, but it doesn't mesh at all with their "inspiration" idea. In fact it flies in its face.

NO different from McDirks losing their dice when Alastair dies.

[Obsidian]

Everyone on the other side seems to want move 6 to come standard with the dwarves. Not likely!


Exactly!

This is exactly what I was talking about. You're basing your interpretation on your expectations, instead of looking at what the card actually says.

They don't have a move 6, they only get that after opting not to bond. The base move of 4 is there if they do bond, or are affected by Morsbane.

Not that this thread isn't technical enough, but Morsbane can't affect this squad because they are common.

[Lord Pyre]

Heh... I see Migol's card, and all I can think is
BEARDBEARDBEARDBEARDBEARD

[nyys]

This list is pointless, it's the rules team that decides.

[Sweetcurse]

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=831870#post831870

Voice your support!

[Sweetcurse]

This list is pointless, it's the rules team that decides.

Hey, SuperflyTNT is waiting for you in the "Party Poopers" room. :p

[Q9 Kid]

I actually was kidding about the list.

[Poseidon's trident]

First of All, don't let this get into a politically argument. Second, I think I have made the transfer to Buddy's side.(even though I don't hate Obama) I think you need to control a dwarf hero in order to get the move bonus.

[clancampbell]

Not that this thread isn't technical enough, but Morsbane can't affect this squad because they are common.

My bad:oops:

[nyys]

First of All, don't let this get into a politically argument. Second, I think I have made the transfer to Buddy's side.(even though I don't hate Obama) I think you need to control a dwarf hero in order to get the move bonus.

Traitor!

[gorthan313]

First of All, don't let this get into a politically argument. Second, I think I have made the transfer to Buddy's side.(even though I don't hate Obama) I think you need to control a dwarf hero in order to get the move bonus.


Dwarves are not natural-born sprinters!

[Sweetcurse]

Welcome home brother

[Sweetcurse]

Obamas:

Buddy
Sweetcurse
Sarpedon
gorthan
poseidonstrident

Palins:
Aldin
Necro
Q9 kid
ollie
clancampbell
Obsidian

[Matthias Maccabeus]

I don't know what the big fuss is. For the same points you can get Alastair and knights. Who needs the dwarves!? ;)

[clancampbell]

This thread must have a move of 12.

[Sweetcurse]

Only when Truth and GB are absent!

[Syvaris]

Dwarves are not natural-born sprinters!


Keep breathing thats the key just keep breathing.


We also need to add boxes to the castle know as the dwarves can not see over the walls. :lol:

[Poseidon's trident]

I don't know what the big fuss is. For the same points you can get Alastair and knights. Who needs the dwarves!? ;)
Alastir and the knights don't have awesome beards!:D

[NecroBlade]

I know that's their interpretation, SC, but it doesn't mesh at all with their "inspiration" idea. In fact it flies in its face.

NO different from McDirks losing their dice when Alastair dies.
That's because Alastair has to be in play for their ability. The Dwarve's power says no such thing. :roll: At least read the cards before you argue.

[gorthan313]

I don't know what the big fuss is. For the same points you can get Alastair and knights. Who needs the dwarves!? ;)


ALRIGHT! I like that reasoning!


~Gorthan, who already has Alistair and KoW x3...

[Buddy Lee]

First of All, don't let this get into a politically argument. Second, I think I have made the transfer to Buddy's side.(even though I don't hate Obama) I think you need to control a dwarf hero in order to get the move bonus.

Dick Cheney welcomes you to the Dark Side.

Buddy Lee

[Jaz1597]

All rules insanity aside, I'm pretty excited for these guys.

And I had a thought...Migol Irondude gets summoned to Valhalla, fights for Aquilla. After the fighting is over, he settles down, finds a nice Valhallan country girl and starts a family. He names his firstborn after himself. Migol II becomes famous in his own right, lives to the ripe old age of 167, dies and has a huge tomb built in his memory.

But since some of the battles currently taking place in Valhalla have occured in the ruins of Migol II's tomb, wouldn't that indicate that he died in the past?

Or is everybody just reading into everything WAY TOO MUCH?

[Jexik]

All rules insanity aside, I'm pretty excited for these guys.

And I had a thought...Migol Irondude gets summoned to Valhalla, fights for Aquilla. After the fighting is over, he settles down, finds a nice Valhallan country girl and starts a family. He names his firstborn after himself. Migol II becomes famous in his own right, lives to the ripe old age of 167, dies and has a huge tomb built in his memory.

But since some of the battles currently taking place in Valhalla have occured in the ruins of Migol II's tomb, wouldn't that indicate that he died in the past?

Or is everybody just reading into everything WAY TOO MUCH?

Truth said that the Dwarves are tribal. I'm sure they've got some peace pipes. I think that the Dwarves had visions of the Kyrie.

[Jaz1597]

All rules insanity aside, I'm pretty excited for these guys.

And I had a thought...Migol Irondude gets summoned to Valhalla, fights for Aquilla. After the fighting is over, he settles down, finds a nice Valhallan country girl and starts a family. He names his firstborn after himself. Migol II becomes famous in his own right, lives to the ripe old age of 167, dies and has a huge tomb built in his memory.

But since some of the battles currently taking place in Valhalla have occured in the ruins of Migol II's tomb, wouldn't that indicate that he died in the past?

Or is everybody just reading into everything WAY TOO MUCH?

Truth said that the Dwarves are tribal. I'm sure they've got some peace pipes. I think that the Dwarves had visions of the Kyrie.
Works for me. I was posting mostly in jest. :p

[Syvaris]

All rules insanity aside, I'm pretty excited for these guys.

And I had a thought...Migol Irondude gets summoned to Valhalla, fights for Aquilla. After the fighting is over, he settles down, finds a nice Valhallan country girl and starts a family. He names his firstborn after himself. Migol II becomes famous in his own right, lives to the ripe old age of 167, dies and has a huge tomb built in his memory.

But since some of the battles currently taking place in Valhalla have occured in the ruins of Migol II's tomb, wouldn't that indicate that he died in the past?

Or is everybody just reading into everything WAY TOO MUCH?



Dwarven naming goes backwards, starting at 100th and down to first?

[Jexik]

Truth said that the Dwarves are tribal. I'm sure they've got some peace pipes. I think that the Dwarves had visions of the Kyrie.
Works for me. I was posting mostly in jest. :p

Wait, you think I'm serious about dwarves getting high and naming themselves after angels that fight each other that they see in their visions?

[demon_llama]

Interestingly, I'm glad this debate has come up. Getting to preview the cards LONG before we actually get them will help get official rulings (and maybe updated FAQ?) before the figures hit the shelves. That will certainly help in the long run as we can get all the kinks worked out...

[Sweetcurse]

I know that's their interpretation, SC, but it doesn't mesh at all with their "inspiration" idea. In fact it flies in its face.

NO different from McDirks losing their dice when Alastair dies.
That's because Alastair has to be in play for their ability. The Dwarve's power says no such thing. :roll: At least read the cards before you argue.


Not arguing, having a blast! Very differentthankyouverymuch. We're just reading the card AS IS.

[Lamaclown]

The dwarves are definitely some of my favorite sculpts so far. i am excited to play them.

As far as the bonding goes, if they get the movement bonus even if you never drafted a dwarf hero it seems that would give them a base movement of 6 and a movement penalty for drafting a dwarf hero.

In order to not take a turn with a dwarf hero you control, you would need to control a dwarf hero. I wouldn't announce that I am not taking a turn with Migol if he was never a part of my army to begin with. I think the phrase "you control" is the deciding factor for my opinion about this.

I eagerly await an official decision on this. Either way, I still love the dwarves.

[Poseidon's trident]

Truth said that the Dwarves are tribal. I'm sure they've got some peace pipes. I think that the Dwarves had visions of the Kyrie.
Works for me. I was posting mostly in jest. :p

Wait, you think I'm serious about dwarves getting high and naming themselves after angels that fight each other that they see in their visions?
You would be surprised how much that actually happens to the dwarves. You should have seen the time when Migol tied wings to his back and tried to "fly". It wasn't very pretty but it wasn't all that bad compared to the time he thought he became the Marro hive and he was giving birth to baby Marro.

[BigBadBruinsMac]

The dwarves are definitely some of my favorite sculpts so far. i am excited to play them.

As far as the bonding goes, if they get the movement bonus even if you never drafted a dwarf hero it seems that would give them a base movement of 6 and a movement penalty for drafting a dwarf hero.

In order to not take a turn with a dwarf hero you control, you would need to control a dwarf hero. I wouldn't announce that I am not taking a turn with Migol if he was never a part of my army to begin with. I think the phrase "you control" is the deciding factor for my opinion about this.

I eagerly await an official decision on this. Either way, I still love the dwarves.

I was just going to post the same thing!

Also if the designers wanted the +2 move all the time, their base move would have been 6 and the Bonding would say "If you bond with a Dwarf hero, lose -2 movement this turn"

[Jaz1597]

Truth said that the Dwarves are tribal. I'm sure they've got some peace pipes. I think that the Dwarves had visions of the Kyrie.
Works for me. I was posting mostly in jest. :p

Wait, you think I'm serious about dwarves getting high and naming themselves after angels that fight each other that they see in their visions?
Nope. I just need some sort of rationalization for the tomb of a dwarf's son lying in ruins before said dwarf is even summoned to Valhalla - but that assumes that Migol II was named after Migol.

This is much more elegant. The dwarves have a quiet little peace fellowship going and get pleasantly toasted. With visions of Kyrie dancing in their heads, they retire to their dwarf bedrooms for a nice tumble in the hay and name their lovechildren after their drug-induced hallucinations. Perfect.

[gorthan313]

We haven't gotten to see the Basic Game sides of the new cards yet. Maybe the Dwarves are from Valhalla.....

[Jexik]

We haven't gotten to see the Basic Game sides of the new cards yet. Maybe the Dwarves are from Valhalla.....

Truth already said on the front page that he's pretty sure that they're from Feylund.

[Toad Rocket]

Wow this thread grew FAST!

Another unit for aquilla...ok fine. Now I guess aquilla is a valid army.

I must say these previews are coming very fast! We barely got into the marros and the mohicans and BAM dwarves!! Not that I am complaining, its just that a little pleasure dealings is nice. :p

I like the units, all of wave 9 still have a fresh feel to them. Good stuff, go dwarves go!!

[Yodaking]

Really like the scupts alot. The squadie in the top position of the picture on the card reminds me of Gimli.

As for the rules question, it seems as it would have been much simpler to have their base movement listed as 6 on the card if that was the intent for these figures. Thus I think I have to come down on the side of getting the bonus 2 movement only if you also draft a dwarven hero and choose not to use him via bonding.

[wriggz]

If i didn't take a turn with a hero I control (weither i could or not), I get the move bonus.
If i did take a turn with a hero I control, I don't get the move bonus.

The question is if the bold statement is implied or not. If Migol is stuck in a trap/not present/dead you can't take a turn with him.

It makes equal sense to say that the implied "weither you could or not" is not written on the card and you do what the card says not what it doesn't...

~Blasted implied statements.

[Obsidian]

I get the idea of "I don't think they should have a base move of 6," but it isn't what you want to the card to be, it's what the card says. The card says they get the move bonus, even if you don't control a dwarf hero.

[gorthan313]

We haven't gotten to see the Basic Game sides of the new cards yet. Maybe the Dwarves are from Valhalla.....

Truth already said on the front page that he's pretty sure that they're from Feylund.


I stand corrected. Thanks!

[padlock]

I get the idea of "I don't think they should have a base move of 6," but it isn't what you want to the card to be, it's what the card says. The card says they get the move bonus, even if you don't control a dwarf hero.

Yup.

As to why they didn't just make the base move 6, and reduce it by 2 whenenver bonding, who knows.

Maybe they just didn't want it to seem like the dwarfs got some kind of lesser bonding, and did it this way to make it seem like the Dwarfs have an enhanced bonding. Perceptions are very important, and sometimes equivalent things can have different perceived values depending on how they're presented.

[NecroBlade]

Along the same lines of perception, players prefer to add to their numbers than subtract from them.

[Uprising]

Thus I think I have to come down on the side of getting the bonus 2 movement only if you also draft a dwarven hero and choose not to use him via bonding.

Yup, that's how I see it as well.

[Sweetcurse]

Well, seems like the idea was to make "bonding" more versatile. You can either have a bonding hero, but when he's not there, your power isn't useless since you get +2 move. Now, only thing we need to know is if the hero is required in the army to begin with.

[Poseidon's trident]

Along the same lines of perception, players prefer to add to their numbers than subtract from them.
I like subtracting the number of dice. Like whenever I play Jotun I only roll 3 die because I think eight is too much and is unfair.:)

[fomox]

There's so much to respond to, that I'll do it all in one hard to follow post:

1. The knights could have beards, under their helmets.

2. The dwarves aren't weed toking hippies. (Stop projecting, Jex!)

3. It seems obvious to me that the dwarves get 6 move unless they bond, but Sarpedon's point about out how much easier it could have been worded does make me wonder a little. In any case, if anyone is going to throw away $500 on this, let's have it go to Heroscape. (Perhaps either campaign HQ will take a large shipment of RotV sets.)

4. Eldgrim sets the precedent for little guys being quick. And what am I going to call him now that we have actual dwarves? (Eldgrim, I guess..)

[padlock]

Along the same lines of perception, players prefer to add to their numbers than subtract from them.
I like subtracting the number of dice. Like whenever I play Jotun I only roll 3 die because I think eight is too much and is unfair.:)

You must really love the deathstalkers :)

[Jaz1597]

As to why they didn't just make the base move 6, and reduce it by 2 whenenver bonding, who knows.

Maybe they just didn't want it to seem like the dwarfs got some kind of lesser bonding, and did it this way to make it seem like the Dwarfs have an enhanced bonding. Perceptions are very important, and sometimes equivalent things can have different perceived values depending on how they're presented.
My thoughts exactly. It amounts to the same thing.

[clancampbell]

The way I see it, you have the dwarves. One of their powers is they can bond with a hero or get plus 2 move, thus you make the choice of which you'd rather have. If you don't take the hero or he is dead, you no longer have a choice, but your power still exsists.

[GeneralGrievous13]

The way I see it, you have the dwarves. One of their powers is they can bond with a hero or get plus 2 move, thus you make the choice of which you'd rather have. If you don't take the hero or he is dead, you no longer have a choice, but your power still exsists.

:word: That's exactly what my family thinks too.

[fomox]

The way I see it, you have the dwarves. One of their powers is they can bond with a hero or get plus 2 move, thus you make the choice of which you'd rather have. If you don't take the hero or he is dead, you no longer have a choice, but your power still exists.

Right.

And if we ever get an ability to negate commons, you could force the dwarves down to 4 move.

[padlock]

The way I see it, you have the dwarves. One of their powers is they can bond with a hero or get plus 2 move, thus you make the choice of which you'd rather have. If you don't take the hero or he is dead, you no longer have a choice, but your power still exists.

Right.

And if we ever get an ability to negate commons, you could force the dwarves down to 4 move.

Or maybe there will be some other power on an unreleased card which will allow you to move the Dwarfs when it's not their turn. Note that the text in Dwaven strategic bonding clearly states "Before taking a turn", which means that in that case, they'd only be able to move 4.

There are many reasons why they might have chosen to do things the way they did.

[Aldin]

In order to not take a turn with a dwarf hero you control, you would need to control a dwarf hero.

In order to not to eat a cupcake made by my daughter, I would need to have a cupcake made by my daughter.

No, wait! Actually I wouldn't...

~Aldin, simply

[Yodaking]

Comparing the 70 point Dwarf squad to the 70 point Indian squad, I think I would take the dwarves every time in a competative game. The Indians look like a lot of fun to play in a casual game, but if I'm trying to win the dwarves just seem like a better value for their 70 points.

Dwarves 3/3 att/def all the time, 4/4 against large or huge figures
vs.
Indians 2/1 att/def until they become engaged, then 3/3

Advantage: Dwarves.

4 Dwarves per squad vs. 3 Indians per squad

Advantage: Dwarves

Dwarf Hero bonding works all the time vs. Indian Hero bonding working only sometimes

Advantage: Dwarves

Base movement 4 but can be increased to 6 vs. base movement 5

Advantage: Depends upon the rule clairification, but looks like either a Tie or a Dwarf Advantage

Range 1 vs. Range 6

Advantage: Indians

Nothing vs. Concealment 19

Advantage: Indians

Seems like the Indians should have been a 50-60 point squad to me.

[Aldin]

Yodaking - who would you rather have against a Glad/Blast army?

~Aldin, who likes what both bring to the table

[Lamaclown]

In order to not take a turn with a dwarf hero you control, you would need to control a dwarf hero.

In order to not to eat a cupcake made by my daughter, I would need to have a cupcake made by my daughter.

No, wait! Actually I wouldn't...

~Aldin, simply

Well, I don't think our statements are similar.
The phrase "you control" means you already possess it.
The phrase "made by my daughter" says nothing about whether or not you already possess the cupcake.
Hope that helps clarify the reasoning behind my statement.

[J4Jandar]

GO GUN NUT! :johnwoo2::johnwoo::chainsaw:

Oops, a chain saw nut slipped in there...

Just wondering why every one plays board and video games where the characters have guns though when it comes down to the real thing ya all get nervous?

Being a responsible adult solves most problems. ;)

[Yodaking]

Yodaking - who would you rather have against a Glad/Blast army?

~Aldin, who likes what both bring to the table

I would have to play test a few times to give you a good anwser as I don't own and Glads/Blasts so I'm not as familiar with them as most. If I were heading to a tourney though, I don't think I would choose one over the other based on the possibility of facing one type of army.

[johnny139]

HOLY CRAP! 17 pages in SEVEN HOURS!? Don't you people have LIVES!?

...oh, wait, yeah, kid with thousands of posts, should be talking and all that.

I like these guys. I probably won't end up buying them, because, well, Dwarves are boring, but I like the fact they're very straightforward. Migol hits people really hard and people can't hit him that hard. The Axegrinders kill big things and bond with other Dwarves. I would have preferred Jandar (because HE NEEDS NEW STUFF SO BADLY!), because they kinda mess with Aquilla's flavor, but, whatever.

Also, Migol looks like he'll a monster on the field, particularly with a small sculpt and non-targettable stuff. It'll be hard to get him from range, and when he's up close... say g'night, baddies.

Now, let's see how my predictions came out.

:jandar: Dwarven Warriors - 4 Dwarven Warriors
Dwarves, Common Squad, Warriors, ???; from Feylund
1 Life, 4 Move, 1 Range, 4 Attack, 4 Defense, ~100 Points
Powers - I dunno. Some kind of Viking synergy, I'd imagine.

Wrong on the general, type, and point cost (though that's probably because I guessed more attack/defense), but otherwise I was pretty good on the core stats. Abilities, though... yeah, not so good. I guess the Vikings will have to be a "lame duck" army for now. :(

:jandar: - Migol the Kyrie Warrior - A Heavily-Armored Kyrie Warrior
Kyrie, Unique Hero, Warrior, Valiant; from Valhalla
5 Life, 4 Move, 1 Range, 3 Attack, 3 Defense, ~??? Points
One Shield Defense - As you know.
Flying - Duh.

Alright, also completely off here. Got the One Shield Defense right, and kinda close with the Flying (CLIMBING IS LIKE FLYING!), but... I thought he was a Kyrie! And a Warrior! And slower! And with different stats!

...wait, are these guys from Feylund of Valhalla? Oh, wait, just checked, Feylund. If so, what's with "Migol's Tomb" and all that? PLOTHOLE! PLOTHOLE!

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Anybody else wonder why they are fighters instead of warriors or why Mirol is a leader instead of champion?

[Agent Minivann]

Regarding the bonding debate, IMHO if they were meant to have a movement of 6 without a dwarf hero on the board, they would either have a base movement of 6, or they would have a +2 movement ability that is negated if they elect to bond. I don't understand why a special called bonding would get a bonus with no one to bond with.

The whole concept of bonding revolves around a hero that goes with the squad. The ability is gone when the hero is gone. Cross reference the McDirks. Bonding says nothing about the abilities that come from Highland Fury. That is a separate power. Strategic bonding is more akin to Utgar's Orders. It is bonding with an option of doing something other than taking a turn with the bonded hero.

[Einar's puppy]

Am I the only one who's a little dissapointed that the dwarves don't have an anti-Jotun's throw power?

[Aldin]

Yodaking - who would you rather have against a Glad/Blast army?

~Aldin, who likes what both bring to the table

I would have to play test a few times to give you a good anwser as I don't own and Glads/Blasts so I'm not as familiar with them as most. If I were heading to a tourney though, I don't think I would choose one over the other based on the possibility of facing one type of army.

That was based on your comment that you'd essentially always prefer the Axegrinders. I was simply trying to point out that there are situations that better suit the Mohicans.

~Aldin, who potentially likes them together

[Sweetcurse]

It would be great to see different dwarves in all generals.

Steampunk dwarves for Vydar
Ranger dwarves for Ullar
Dark dwarves for Utgar
Barbarian dwarves for einar
Runic dwarves for Jandar

Also, maybe some engineer dwarves would be cool.

I agree with Johnny that they mess with the feel of Aquilla. I thought she'd be more esoteric warriors/jungle types.

[padlock]

It seems to me like the debate can be summarized as:

A - "The card states that they always get the extra move"

B - "Yeah, but that doesn't make sense. Dwarfs are supposed to be slow"

A - "But that 's not what the card says"

B - "Yeah, but then why didn't they just state it in a different way"

A - "I don't know, I'm just going by what the card says"

B - "Yeah, but I can think of a different way they could have said the same thing which I like better, so it can't be true"

A - "But that's what the card says"

...

[Lamaclown]

It would be great to see different dwarves in all generals.

Steampunk dwarves for Vydar
Ranger dwarves for Ullar
Dark dwarves for Utgar
Barbarian dwarves for einar
Runic dwarves for Jandar


I've only recently discovered steampunk. I am glad this first batch of dwarves are more traditional but it would be cool to see some steampunk dwarves as well.

[jedilou]

The Dwarves sculps look great! I'm looking forward to getting lots and lots 'o dwarves.

While the real answer will come from the Rules Team, here's my 2 cents on the question of whether the Axegrinders get the +2 move if Migol (or other hero) is not in the army.
Based on GB's comments that strategic bonding was designed to better cost the units than regular bonding, I think they would NOT get the move without the choice (i.e., if no hero to decide not to take a turn with).

B/c this more specific bonding was meant to more accurately price the squad, I would think that the 4 move is the actual default speed absent a decision to forego the turn with the bonded hereo, not the 6 (which is not the stated value).

BUT, if I'm wrong, it just makes the dwarves that much MORE awesome. I'm ok with that.

- I just re-read my post. Sorry it is so convoluted. In short, since the designers are trying to be more accurate with the costing of figures, why would they want to be anything but precise with the default stats?

[kpotassiumk19]

Finally good Q9 counters and a small hero at the same time. Possibly 6 move without migol, and 4 atk and 4 def with 3 figures (against Q9), and the small size and ability to hide. If you put these into one squad, you get a possible Q9 counter! I can see migol not being used in an army with the axegrinders because of the extra move, which can be a strategcal advantage. If it is a small map, migol will probably be used, and also if the opponent doesn't have much range, there will not be as much of a need for move. Against a mostly range army where there are a lot of places to hide to use them as a stealth squad.
I think these will be great because they are so versatile. They can be dragon slayers, spies, squad and hero killers with migol at there side, and even heavy hitters that can kill pesty soulborgs such as Q9. I love the idea of having them able to do a little of everything.

[Sport351]

These guys are my favorite from wave 9 yet. I like how Migol has both an attack boosting power and a good defense power. The Axegriders look awesome as well with their bonding and bonus against large/huge figures...I guess they would smash the kneecaps or cut the ankles on guys like Tor-Kul-Na. Cant wait to order this wave.

[Sweetcurse]

"Before taking a turn with The Axegrinders of Burning Forge, you may first take a turn with any Dwarf hero you control. If you do not take a turn with a dwarf hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number."

That is the problematic phrase. It seems like a prequisite to have a "dwarf hero you control." Seems like the power indicates a needed sacrifice. You either get the benefit of bonding, or the extra move. The phrase seems to imply choice of not activating the her, not that you NEVER had the choice.

I guess the "you control" is either a designation name of a particular figure "a dwarf YOU control" or a requisite that says you MUST have control of that figure and choose not to use it.

If the move 6 all the time, then cool they are more powerful. But I like the flavor of them better if they can't.

[Lamaclown]

It seems to me like the debate can be summarized as:

A - "The card states that they always get the extra move"...

Actually, all other things aside, the card doesn't actually "state" that they always get the extra move. You could say that it implies such, but it doesn't state such.

[padlock]

There's nothing imprecise about them. The dwarfs move number is different depending on whether or not they bond with their hero. They simply choose to indicate the number that occurs when they do bond, rather then the one when they don't.

It's quite similar to how Agent Carr's Sword of Reckoning works. You could argue that they could have made the default attack 6, and simply had an ability which lowers it to 2 when not adjacent, and you'd be absolutely right, they could have...

But they didn't.

[Grungebob]

Guys I'm at work right now. Just do as the card says and don't read too much into it.

[Sweetcurse]

That's it! Cool, thanks GB!

I guess Obamas were wrong after all. I just wish now that ALL bonding worked as such. I love me some speedy dwarfs! This makes this guys a VERY good tourney pick. Bond, or be faster and get bonuses vs big guys. Just a strong, solid tourney squad...unlike ANY of the silly elves.

[Obsidian]

Guys I'm at work right now. Just do as the card says and don't read too much into it.

Sounds like this is on the side of "even if you don't have the hero" side.

[Hal0fan117]

Before taking a turn with Axegrinders of Burning Forge you may take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control. If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders move number.


Ok, let's break it down.

Before taking a turn with Axegrinders of Burning Forge...

Clearly this happens right after flipping over the order marker.

...you may take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control....

After revealing your first order marker, you can take a turn with a dwarf hero inyour possesion, as supposed to your opponents.

...If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinder's move number.

This is the part everyone's upset about. The setnence can be split two ways.

"If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control that you currently control, add 2 to the Axegrinder's move number."

or

"If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero (that wouldn't be your opponents), add 2 to the Axegrinder's move number."

You would control him if he died like you would control a dead zombie. Of course the zombie has a shot at coming back...but...

If you say you can control dead figures, then the only difference is that you would need Migol in you're army. If you say that you don't control dead figures, then Side A says you need him on the feield and side B says you still don't even need him.

I'm with side B here. It doesn't matter if you even have him in your army. I think what the creators were trying to do is balance bonding, since the dwarves are already so cool. If they had bonding and a move of six, then they might cost 90 points a squad. This is a clever way to keep it balanced and let the dwarves keep both their cool abilities.

[jbbnbsmith]

Guys I'm at work right now. Just do as the card says and don't read too much into it.
So that means...what?

Now we will have another 18 pages of discussion as we interpret GB's post.

Obamas:
"See, don't read into the card. That means you get the movement bonus even without having a dwarf hero."

Palins:
"No, no, no. He meant don't read into the card that they have a base move of 6 when clearly it says 4. Therefore, you must have a leader to get the bonus."

Come on, GB! Almost ALL of us are at work right now! Just answer the question. :D

[Sweetcurse]

I was with the Obamas and I think it's pretty clear Saint GB meant they get the bonus with or without a hero in the army. Should we go to war over this?

"Cowabunga Dudes!"

"Ay Carumba!"

AAAAHHHHHHH

[clancampbell]

Guys I'm at work right now. Just do as the card says and don't read too much into it.
So that means...what?

Now we will have another 18 pages of discussion as we interpret GB's post.

Obamas:
"See, don't read into the card. That means you get the movement bonus even without having a dwarf hero."

Palins:
"No, no, no. He meant don't read into the card that they have a base move of 6 when clearly it says 4. Therefore, you must have a leader to get the bonus."

Come on, GB! Almost ALL of us are at work right now! Just answer the question. :D

I think you got the Obama's and Palin's confused, or I'm on the wrong side.

As for GB's non-answer, he basically said,:rtfc:.

I'm going off what GB said, and see it as you don't need the hero to get the +2.

[Sweetcurse]

Agreed.

[Sweetcurse]

These guys rock hard then don't they?

[Hal0fan117]

I thought I summed it up pretty well. 17 pages condensed into 1 post...

Either way Dwarves rock.

[clancampbell]

Wonder if Buddy Lee is going to cough up that 500 bucks?

These guys could move 9 on a road!!

[Sweetcurse]

Dwarves on Red Bull!

To go back to my original comment, I now wish instead of move +2, they'd get defense +1 or some such, more dwarfy. I'd love to see this kind of bonding work differently for different races. + range for elves or + move, + attack to orcs and vipers, + move to humans, etc.

[Buddy Lee]

Wonder if Buddy Lee is going to cough up that 500 bucks?

These guys could move 9 on a road!!

I am a man of my word.

Anyone who questions that can kiss my @$$.

That being said I am still waiting for an official rules clarification from WotC. GB's statement is left open to the intrepretation of the reader.

Buddy Lee

[Hal0fan117]

Wonder if Buddy Lee is going to cough up that 500 bucks?

These guys could move 9 on a road!!

I am a man of my word.

Anyone who questions that can kiss my @$$.

That being said I am still waiting for an official rules clarification from WotC. GB's statement is left open to the intrepretation of the reader.

Buddy Lee

But if they didn't think you were a man of you're word, wouldn't they think you were lying about kissing your @$$? ;)

I beleive you :D

[Flavius Maximus]

I think one reason they (could be) so fast is they have much less wind resistance than larger figs like Q9 and Krug. Ever notice how the really fast sprinters are shorter than average?

Movement aside, the dwarves seem ultra solid. Fair base stats and even better against the bigger figures, and a sweet bonding ability with an even more solid dwarf hero. WOTC had me concerned for a bit that HS might be dying, but the enterance of dwarves is like a breath of fresh air. And, while I am disappointed that the dwarves aren't Jandar, I understand that the dwarves and vikings would be redundant. I am totally changing my sig.

[clancampbell]

Wonder if Buddy Lee is going to cough up that 500 bucks?

These guys could move 9 on a road!!

I am a man of my word.

Anyone who questions that can kiss my @$$.

That being said I am still waiting for an official rules clarification from WotC. GB's statement is left open to the intrepretation of the reader.

Buddy Lee

I wasn't questioning your word, I kind of thought you might be kidding. That is a pretty good chunk of change.

[Xn F M]

I like the options available to the bonding power of the Axegrinders--definitely necessary for a squad that moves as slow as Zombies (hey Tarns, you're no longer the only ones as slow as the shambling undead!).

Guys I'm at work right now. Just do as the card says and don't read too much into it.
So that means...what?

Now we will have another 18 pages of discussion as we interpret GB's post.

Obamas:
"See, don't read into the card. That means you get the movement bonus even without having a dwarf hero."

Palins:
"No, no, no. He meant don't read into the card that they have a base move of 6 when clearly it says 4. Therefore, you must have a leader to get the bonus."

Come on, GB! Almost ALL of us are at work right now! Just answer the question. :D

C'mon now guys. GB said do what it says, not what it doesn't. The card says, "if you do not take a turn with any Dwarf hero you control. . . ." So when you're going to make a move with the dwarves you ask yourself, "did I take a turn with a dwarf hero I control?" If you don't have a dwarf hero, the answer is no, and you get to add to their move score.

Edit: I just saw Clancampbell beat me to it. I guess that's what I get for posting in the middle of a Final. +rep when I reload.

[Buddy Lee]

Wonder if Buddy Lee is going to cough up that 500 bucks?

These guys could move 9 on a road!!

I am a man of my word.

Anyone who questions that can kiss my @$$.

That being said I am still waiting for an official rules clarification from WotC. GB's statement is left open to the intrepretation of the reader.

Buddy Lee


I wasn't questioning your word, I kind of thought you might be kidding. That is a pretty good chunk of change.
Fair enough.

BTW its less about the money than it is who it would go to.

:puke::explode::blowup:

Buddy Lee

[Dumb Dwarf]

Movement 12?

Nope just frenzy 3 with Venoc Warlord and the glyph of Lodin FTW.

Am so confused is that green number 4 or 6.

DD

[johnny139]

I'm totally an Obama.

...and, by stating that, I begin to wonder what exactly has transpired on the sixteen or so pages I've yet to read. :wtf:

[Sweetcurse]

Are you implying that gun control, universal healthcare and socialism make you sick?

:p :lol:

[wriggz]

So the arguement comes down to points. Is a 70 point dwarf with move of 6 too cheep so they had to hold them back with the requirement of hero being present?
Is a 70 point dward with move of 4 too much so they had to help them out with move advantage?

My instinct says the dwarfs are too good with the move of 6 so holding them back with the hero limitation makes sense.

[Buddy Lee]

Are you implying that gun control, universal healthcare and socialism make you sick?

:p :lol:

Your f(rakk)ing kidding right?

:lol:

Buddy Lee

[kpotassiumk19]

I like the idea of having one squad of axegrinders go alone to scout and have another squad stay behind with migol and kill stray figures. Once you take out the range or your scouts die, send up migol with his squad and wreck. I don't think more then 2 or 3 axegrinders are necessary so don't expect swarms of them.

[spiteofthedice]

I have to agree with those who say:

If you don't have a dwarf hero, either because you forgot to bring him to battle or because he died, then you don't get bonding with that hero.

And if you don't have the ability to bond with a dwarf hero, you don't get to choose not to use it. I hope I'm wrong.

[padlock]

So the arguement comes down to points. Is a 70 point dwarf with move of 6 too cheep so they had to hold them back with the requirement of hero being present?
Is a 70 point dward with move of 4 too much so they had to help them out with move advantage?

My instinct says the dwarfs are too good with the move of 6 so holding them back with the hero limitation makes sense.

:brickwall::brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:

No, the argument comes down to what the card says.

[spiteofthedice]

So the arguement comes down to points. Is a 70 point dwarf with move of 6 too cheep so they had to hold them back with the requirement of hero being present?
Is a 70 point dward with move of 4 too much so they had to help them out with move advantage?

My instinct says the dwarfs are too good with the move of 6 so holding them back with the hero limitation makes sense.

:brickwall::brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:

No, the argument comes down to what the card says.

He's talking about the dwards - different squad. :p

[Swamper]

The card says if they do not bond. Since Migol is not in the army, they do not bond. Therefore, they get six move.

[zombie prime]

When I first read the ability, I interpreted it as you must have a hero to bond.

In the end I think that it will be ruled in the other direction, with no bond hero needed to activate the power.

[Flavius Maximus]

Personally, I find the question of whether the power works without a hero to bond with moot, 'cause I'm never making an army without both of them in it, they're too good together. (speculating, of course;))

[Sweetcurse]

But what of when he dies?

[Flavius Maximus]

I cry and lose the game. ;)

Seriously though, this seems like it falls under house rules half of the time, and tourney rules the rest of the time. (where they'd probably tell you before playing)

I'm not too concerned about it. (see signature)

[ElvenEnvy]

I bet sometime down the line someones going to try to use the bonding ability with Eldgrim and not even know they've made a mistake.

[Flavius Maximus]

Somewhere down the line someone will alter Eldgrim's card to dwarf hero and get it over with. :roll:

But that would be cool. . .

[albertic26]

Migol is crixus and zetacron combined he is so beast. The wave 9 characters so far are on steroids they're just amazing.

[Rich10]

Migol is crixus and zetacron combined he is so beast. The wave 9 characters so far are on steroids they're just amazing.
Using the matchup calculator, Migol and Crixus are evenly matched. That may be changed by bonding, but in a one one one matchup, they are even.
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/matchup.pl?quickp=27&ptp=90&psquad=single&herop1=5&squadp1=1&ps=0&p2=5&p3=3&quickq=custom&ptq=---&qsquad=single&heroq1=5&squadq1=1&qs=0&q2=2&q3=4&q4=1&p47=1&q47=1&pmoff=0&qmoff=0&pattlim=0&qattlim=0&pmdef=0&qmdef=0&p0=0&q0=0&request=findprob

I think that the wave 9 characters are pretty well balanced. Of course, that may depend on the dwarves move without a hero.

[Barbasol]

So the arguement comes down to points. Is a 70 point dwarf with move of 6 too cheep so they had to hold them back with the requirement of hero being present?
Is a 70 point dward with move of 4 too much so they had to help them out with move advantage?

My instinct says the dwarfs are too good with the move of 6 so holding them back with the hero limitation makes sense.

Delurking here... I don't think it's a matter of "holding them back", it's about make them worth the points whether or not a hero is available to bond with.

That's how I read Grungebob's statement at least:
I think what you're seeing is an adjustment in the flexibility of certain powers so that point costing is more consistent. If all bonding had been designed this way years ago, I think the game would work slightly better. That said, this ability was not as easy as it looks to pin down.

So with normal bonding, if you don't draft the hero to bond with, then the squad is overpriced since that ability was accounted for in the point value. I.E. the dwarves aren't really worth 70 if they have nothing to bond with. Giving them the alternate of move +2 compensates.

Thematically, this also works for me:
Migol Ironbutt is so old and slow that bonding with him slows down the whole squad.

(Grungebob has all the answers. :) )

[StarofEarendil]

Woohoo! The Dwarves look awesome! Too bad they're Aquilla, but oh well.:D

[SymphonyScaper]

...If you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number

When I first read the card, I thought they had to have a hero with them to get the +2 movement. After reading through the last 15 pages or so, I am convinced that they get the +2 when not taking a turn with a Dwarf Hero, and if the Dwarf Hero isn't present in the army as well.
It's amazing what we can think up in our ignorance!:rtfc:

[Flavius Maximus]

Now all that's left for the dwarves is a ranged squad of crossbow wielding dwarves. That or a dwarf riding something.

Dwarftastic!

[Sarpedon]

Just got back from a meeting and read everything to get caught up. It looks like Grungebob said (paraphrasing): "Do what the card says". Ok, I admit, it looks bad for my side. However, if that's the case, why didn't they just say that the dwarves have a move of 6? THAT'S the part that doesn't make sense.

They move 6 unless their Hero moves first, in which case their move is reduced to 4. It's cause-and-effect. The 4-move limit comes about if-and-only-if the hero moves first. Thus their default move is 6. Thus their move number on the right side of the card should NOT be 4, but rather 6. Why would you say to someone: "The car's top speed is 150 km/h. If you don't hook up a trailer the maximum speed increases to 200 km/h."?

That's backwards, isn't it? The default maximum speed is 200km/h. IF you hook up a trailer, the maximum speed DROPS to 150 km/h. I think it's this mix up of cause and effect (and the fact that there's no freakin' way the dwarves, I'm sure, in the opinion of most Heroscapers, should have an unboosted move of 6!) that created the debate.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. My opinion is still that dwarves should NOT have a move of 6 without some kind of inspiration (read "sacrifice"). Dwarves should (according to every book/movie) be naturally slower than elves, humans, orcs, etc.. Theme matters.

[ganondorf557]

The reason they put in the part about a dwarf hero you control is so that you couldn't move a dwarf hero anyone else owned. Because without it the power would read "Before taking a trun with The Axe Bringers of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any dwarf hero." That doesn't make any sense so I am with no hero is needed to get the +2 move.

[Sarpedon]

The reason they put in the part about a dwarf hero you control is so that you couldn't move a dwarf hero anyone else owned. Because without it the power would read "Before taking a trun with The Axe Bringers of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any dwarf hero." That doesn't make any sense so I am with no hero is needed to get the +2 move.

"Before taking a turn with The Axe Grinders of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any dwarf hero you control"

What would be the problem with that?