Migol and the Axegrinders of Burning Forge Discussion Thread

[rouby44]

I've seen several posts stating or implying that the Axegrinders would be undercosted if they had an effective move of 6. But actually, 70 points is just about right for a 4-man squad with 6 move, 1 range, 3 attack, and 3 defense.

I deduce this by comparing the Axegrinders to the squads most similar to them:

Non-bonding Axegrinders:17.5 points per figure
6 move
1 range
3 attack
3 defense
Fearless Advantage
Marro Drones:16.66 points per figure
6 move
1 range
3 attack
3 defense
Hive Swarm

Comments: The Drones are cheaper per figure and average more than 4 attacks per activation despite being a 3-man squad.
Knights of Weston:17.5 points per figure
4 move
1 range
3 attack
4 defense
Human Champion Bonding
A Coward's Reward

Comments: Althought he Knights are slower, bonding to Sir Gilbert compensates and gives them a 5th attack; they have an extra defense die and A Coward's Reward to boot for the same price per figure.
Heavy Gruts:17.5 points per figure
5 move
1 range
3 attack
3 defense
Orc Champion Bonding
Disengage

Comments: The gruts only have 5 move, but can always bond to a stat-boosting Champion who also gives them a 5th attack. Disengage is handy too.

For the Axegrinders to bond freely as the Orcs and Knights do, you must forfeit their potential speed for a clumsy move value of 4. However, Fearless Advantage is probably more valuable than Disengage or A Coward's Reward, so I see these as off-setting one another.

In conclusion, I'd say that the Axegrinders, even with their ability to have 6 move, are appropriately priced at 70.

[Jaz1597]

The reason they put in the part about a dwarf hero you control is so that you couldn't move a dwarf hero anyone else owned. Because without it the power would read "Before taking a trun with The Axe Bringers of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any dwarf hero." That doesn't make any sense so I am with no hero is needed to get the +2 move.
The question is not about whether the bonding applies to ANY dwarf hero. It has to do with whether or not you need to have a dwarf hero in your army in order to qualify for the move bonus.

~Jaz, trying hard not to get involved (with apologies to Aldin for stealing his device).

[Sarpedon]

So, Jaz1597, you're saying dwarves with an unboosted move of 6 (as fast as the Izumi Samurai and the Anubian Wolves) is ok with you thematically as well?

[ganondorf557]

Sorry I mean that without the you control part the power doesn't make sense. Therefore I don't think the creators were trying to imply that you needed a dwarf hero in play to get the +2 movement.

[SpartanNinja]

I don't know if I'm right, but I'm with Buddy Lee and Sarpedon (and any others with them as well).

The power in its entirety states "Before taking a turn with The Axegrinders of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control. If you don't take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, you may add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number.

"You control" is a stipulation, the dwarf hero you are not taking a turn with must be under your control.

Logic quiz!
How if-then clauses work is this...
...........v Clause A v......................v Clause B v..........................Result
When the first part is met, then the second part will be met as well. Valid

When the first part is met, but the second is not. ........................Invalid

When the first part is not met, but the second part is. .................Invalid

When the first part is not met, and the second part is also not met. Valid

You must be able to make the choice to not control the hero to meet the stipulation of Clause A making Clause B possible. If you cannot meet Clause A's stipulation, then you cannot attain Clause B's results.

Simple Logic

[Jaz1597]

So, Jaz1597, you're saying dwarves with an unboosted move of 6 (as fast as the Izumi Samurai and the Anubian Wolves) is ok with you thematically as well?
I'm saying that I'm not taking sides. But I agree the wording is a bit confusing. Theme is important to me, but not so much that plus or minus 2 move would sour me on a unit.

[SpartanNinja]

Sorry I mean that without the you control part the power doesn't make sense. Therefore I don't think the creators were trying to imply that you needed a dwarf hero in play to get the +2 movement.
In the first sentence, yes, the "you control" part simply clarifies that it can't just be any dwarf hero. But the second sentence does not need to reiterate that fact, the "you control" part in the second sentence stipulates that it must be under your control in order for you to not take a turn with the hero.

[Sarpedon]

So, Jaz1597, you're saying dwarves with an unboosted move of 6 (as fast as the Izumi Samurai and the Anubian Wolves) is ok with you thematically as well?
I'm saying that I'm not taking sides. But I agree the wording is a bit confusing. Theme is important to me, but not so much that plus or minus 2 move would sour me on a unit.

From 4 to 6 is a 50% speed increase. You make it sound like peanuts. Imagine if Bolt (the Jamaican sprinter) could run the hundred meters in half the time (about 4.8 seconds)! That's a HUGE difference. The stumpy dwarves would be as fast as a the Krav Maga Agents and the nimble Arrow Gruts! If theme matters to you as you say, I can't imagine how you can be ok with that. It's not about taking sides. It's about internal consistency.

[Xn F M]

I don't know if I'm right, but I'm with Buddy Lee and Sarpedon (and any others with them as well).

The power in its entirety states "Before taking a turn with The Axegrinders of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control. If you don't take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control, you may add 2 to the Axegrinders' move number.

"You control" is a stipulation, the dwarf hero you are not taking a turn with must be under your control.

Logic quiz!
How if-then clauses work is this...
...........v Clause A v......................v Clause B v..........................Result
When the first part is met, then the second part will be met as well. Valid

When the first part is met, but the second is not. ........................Invalid

When the first part is not met, but the second part is. .................Invalid

When the first part is not met, and the second part is also not met. Valid

You must be able to make the choice to not control the hero to meet the stipulation of Clause A making Clause B possible. If you cannot meet Clause A's stipulation, then you cannot attain Clause B's results.

Simple Logic

I disagree. The phrase "you control" is only meant to be descriptive of the Dwarf hero. It's not part of the "if/then" structure of the sentence.

I'd argue that "you control" is only on the card because that's the way heroscape abilities are phrased. It doesn't need to be there as part of the function of the ability (you can only take turns with units you control), but every card that references taking turns with other units uses that clause (I think anyway, I"m not really up to doing that research atm).

And Sarpedon, don't you know that dwarves are natural sprinters. ;)

[Sarpedon]

Really? So they're naturally as fast as Ninjas? (Isamu) ;) I admit! I did NOT know that!

[RoninValentina]

It's not about taking sides. It's about internal consistency.

Seriously? No offense, but this is a game where guys with bows and arrows can kill giant futuristic robots. I think if you can accept that as "internal consistency" then you can relax about how fast a few dwarves can run.

[nyys]

Well every Dwarf that I ever saw... oh wait, that's right they're fictional warriors and therefore can be created in any which way the game designers like.

[gorthan313]

In LotR, Gimli was NOT as fast as Legolas, and Syvarris only has move 5 for comparison....

[Jaz1597]

So, Jaz1597, you're saying dwarves with an unboosted move of 6 (as fast as the Izumi Samurai and the Anubian Wolves) is ok with you thematically as well?
I'm saying that I'm not taking sides. But I agree the wording is a bit confusing. Theme is important to me, but not so much that plus or minus 2 move would sour me on a unit.

From 4 to 6 is a 50% speed increase. You make it sound like peanuts. Imagine if Bolt (the Jamaican sprinter) could run the hundred meters in half the time (about 4.8 seconds)! That's a HUGE difference. The stumpy dwarves would be as fast as a the Krav Maga Agents and the nimble Arrow Gruts! If theme matters to you as you say, I can't imagine how you can be ok with that. It's not about taking sides. It's about internal consistency.
I'm really not trying to get into an argument here. I'm saying it doesn't bother me. You can pick apart my words if you like.

[ganondorf557]

I am just saying that you are over analyzing this. I really do not believe that you must have a dwarf hero in play to get the +2 movement bonus. I think it says that you can choose to take a turn with a dwarf hero that you control or you can choose +2 movement. It doesn't say that you need a dwarf hero to get the +2 movement.

[Sarpedon]

Sure, nyys. If that's the case, then anything goes. But I don't have to like it.

[NecroBlade]

In LotR, Gimli was NOT as fast as Legolas, and Syvarris only has move 5 for comparison....
This isn't LotR.

[Sarpedon]

So, Jaz1597, you're saying dwarves with an unboosted move of 6 (as fast as the Izumi Samurai and the Anubian Wolves) is ok with you thematically as well?
I'm saying that I'm not taking sides. But I agree the wording is a bit confusing. Theme is important to me, but not so much that plus or minus 2 move would sour me on a unit.

From 4 to 6 is a 50% speed increase. You make it sound like peanuts. Imagine if Bolt (the Jamaican sprinter) could run the hundred meters in half the time (about 4.8 seconds)! That's a HUGE difference. The stumpy dwarves would be as fast as a the Krav Maga Agents and the nimble Arrow Gruts! If theme matters to you as you say, I can't imagine how you can be ok with that. It's not about taking sides. It's about internal consistency.
I'm really not trying to get into an argument here. I'm saying it doesn't bother me. You can pick apart my words if you like.

This, to me, is not an argument. It is a friendly discussion. That's why we're posting here. It's ok to (politely) disagree. No worries.

[gamjuven]

I'm just debating which is better.... Knights of Weston, or the Dwarves? I love them both!

[gorthan313]

In LotR, Gimli was NOT as fast as Legolas, and Syvarris only has move 5 for comparison....
This isn't LotR.


I should have added a ;).

[Jaz1597]

So, Jaz1597, you're saying dwarves with an unboosted move of 6 (as fast as the Izumi Samurai and the Anubian Wolves) is ok with you thematically as well?
I'm saying that I'm not taking sides. But I agree the wording is a bit confusing. Theme is important to me, but not so much that plus or minus 2 move would sour me on a unit.

From 4 to 6 is a 50% speed increase. You make it sound like peanuts. Imagine if Bolt (the Jamaican sprinter) could run the hundred meters in half the time (about 4.8 seconds)! That's a HUGE difference. The stumpy dwarves would be as fast as a the Krav Maga Agents and the nimble Arrow Gruts! If theme matters to you as you say, I can't imagine how you can be ok with that. It's not about taking sides. It's about internal consistency.
I'm really not trying to get into an argument here. I'm saying it doesn't bother me. You can pick apart my words if you like.

This, to me, is not an argument. It is a friendly discussion. That's why we're posting here. It's ok to (politely) disagree. No worries.
It's probably because I'm still at work dealing with stupid people. I feel like I have to justify my opinion even if it has no rational basis. You make a good point (although I can't help but agree with nyys to some extent - and not just because he's a fellow New Englander).

[Xn F M]

In LotR, Gimli was NOT as fast as Legolas, and Syvarris only has move 5 for comparison....
This isn't LotR.

Exactly. We don't know anything about the background for heroscape Dwarves yet. Maybe they are fast. I mean, who had ever heard of a blue orc before heroscape?

[SpartanNinja]

I disagree. The phrase "you control" is only meant to be descriptive of the Dwarf hero. It's not part of the "if/then" structure of the sentence.

I'd argue that "you control" is only on the card because that's the way heroscape abilities are phrased. It doesn't need to be there as part of the function of the ability (you can only take turns with units you control), but every card that references taking turns with other units uses that clause (I think anyway, I"m not really up to doing that research atm).


I see your point, but why say the same thing over twice? The first sentence already describes the Dwarf hero, if the dwarf hero was so readily optional then it would read "If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero..." The second "you control" puts the rest of the sentence in perspective. It restates that the Hero must be in your control, and if the hero must be in your control, then without the control you cannot add the bonus because the stipulation of the first part was not met.

[Sarpedon]

I disagree. The phrase "you control" is only meant to be descriptive of the Dwarf hero. It's not part of the "if/then" structure of the sentence.

I'd argue that "you control" is only on the card because that's the way heroscape abilities are phrased. It doesn't need to be there as part of the function of the ability (you can only take turns with units you control), but every card that references taking turns with other units uses that clause (I think anyway, I"m not really up to doing that research atm).


I see your point, but why say the same thing over twice? The first sentence already describes the Dwarf hero, if the dwarf hero was so readily optional then it would read "If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero..." The second "you control" puts the rest of the sentence in perspective. It restates that the Hero must be in your control, and if the hero must be in your control, then without the control you cannot add the bonus because the stipulation of the first part was not met.

Yea, yea, dawg. He nose beddah den anyones dwaves ain' fasser 'un ninjaz!

[ganondorf557]

I guess I see your point Spartan but I believe that the second you control is serving the same purpose as the first you control. Basically if you opt to not take a turn with a dwarf hero you control you get +2 move. In the case that I don't have a dwarf hero that I can choose to bond with then I am forced to choose the second option and add +2 to their movement.

[NecroBlade]

On the bright side, if it turns out you don't need a Dwarf Hero to get +2 Move, you guys who think you do can keep playing your way by just never moving your dwarves more than 4 spaces. ;)

[Sarpedon]

I was one of the first to admit I might be wrong, NecroBlade. I will congratulate the other side if I am. I hope I'm right regarding the dwarves, though. Not because I give a flying ____ at a rolling donut about being right, but because I want the dwarves to be dwarves as I have always known them. To me, it won't feel right if they have a move of 6. I'll start thinking of them as "Cheetaz" (yes, pun). LOL

[gamjuven]

I think that the card simply says you can do bonding, if you don't do the bonding, you get 2 movement. Basically you can do A, if you don't do A then you can do B.

That is obviously what the designers meant.

[Sweetcurse]

Sarpedon, wouldn't +1 defense have been better thematically?

[ganondorf557]

I think that the card simply says you can do bonding, if you don't do the bonding, you get 2 movement. Basically you can do A, if you don't do A then you can do B.

That is obviously what the designers meant.
:word:

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

In regards to LotR races and the assumption the Axegrinders and Migol would've been for Janar - I do like the Dwarves identified with Aquilla if only to give more visual differentiation to the races: Majority of humans being blue/purple, Elves = green, Dwarves = yellow.

With the movement issue - My initial impression is that a Dwarf Hero needs to be in the army and not activated to receive the additional 2 space bonus for the Axegrinders. Bonding has always involved another unit activated or considered.

[Sarpedon]

I think you're right, Sweetcurse. It would have been better. In fact, I would have given them a defense boost of +2 (instead of movement boost). That way, if they move their hero, they have to cover him and expose themselves a bit. If they don't move their hero, they buckle down for a total of 5 defense. Thus, their base defense would be 5. If their hero moved first through bonding, it would drop to 3.

[Einar's puppy]

I was one of the first to admit I might be wrong, NecroBlade. I will congratulate the other side if I am. I hope I'm right regarding the dwarves, though. Not because I give a flying ____ at a rolling donut about being right, but because I want the dwarves to be dwarves as I have always known them. To me, it won't feel right if they have a move of 6. I'll start thinking of them as "Cheetaz" (yes, pun). LOL
What can you say? Dwarves are natural sprinters!

[Sweetcurse]

I love them as is, just saying that would have ben more thematic. I trust the playtesters knew what they were doing though. So there.

[Sarpedon]

The playtesters may have known what they were doing. You can love them as they are. I don't (if they can move 6 without a live dwarf hero in the army). It's just a matter of taste/opinion.

[Sweetcurse]

I don't like it, but I accept it. They are pretty nasty really. Getting plus one defense against shooting (normal and special) is awesome. I do hope they rule that you must have a hero, otherwise they are the cheese.

[Sarpedon]

I love them as is, just saying that would have ben more thematic. I trust the playtesters knew what they were doing though. So there.

Didn't you just say that you "...love them as is.."? Now you only "accept" them? Which is it? Anyway, I agree that more defense for these non-ranged units would have been good.

[funnymarx]

I think you're right, Sweetcurse. It would have been better. In fact, I would have given them a defense boost of +2 (instead of movement boost). That way, if they move their hero, they have to cover him and expose themselves a bit. If they don't move their hero, they buckle down for a total of 5 defense. Thus, their base defense would be 5. If their hero moved first through bonding, it would drop to 3.

While perhaps thematic, such an ability would involve a level of book-keeping so far unseen in Heroscape. Since figures don't roll defense dice during their turn, how exactly do you know when to give or withhold a defensive bonus?

Fast dwarves are a bit like fast zombies... but the "Dawn of the Dead" remake was decent, so hopefully these fellows will be too.

[kpotassiumk19]

5 defense would be too much for a small figure squad worth 70 points. Not only that, but they have a large/huge bonus, the choice of bonding that does forfiet their defense however, and 3 attack. 4 atk and 6 defense if you include the large huge bonus would be way too much for a common squad worth 70 points. +1 def is much more reasonable.

[SuperflyTNT]

How about we all play with them before griping how bad they are and what would've made them better?

Jumping the gun, kids...

[Sarpedon]

I think you're right, Sweetcurse. It would have been better. In fact, I would have given them a defense boost of +2 (instead of movement boost). That way, if they move their hero, they have to cover him and expose themselves a bit. If they don't move their hero, they buckle down for a total of 5 defense. Thus, their base defense would be 5. If their hero moved first through bonding, it would drop to 3.

While perhaps thematic, such an ability would involve a level of book-keeping so far unseen in Heroscape. Since figures don't roll defense dice during their turn, how exactly do you know when to give or withhold a defensive bonus?

Fast dwarves are a bit like fast zombies... but the "Dawn of the Dead" remake was decent, so hopefully these fellows will be too.

Very simple: place a token on the card if it activated a dwarf hero. The squad has 3 defense until the start of its army's next turn at which point the token is removed. I don't think it's that hard.

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

So, Jaz1597, you're saying dwarves with an unboosted move of 6 (as fast as the Izumi Samurai and the Anubian Wolves) is ok with you thematically as well?
I'm saying that I'm not taking sides. But I agree the wording is a bit confusing. Theme is important to me, but not so much that plus or minus 2 move would sour me on a unit.

From 4 to 6 is a 50% speed increase. You make it sound like peanuts. Imagine if Bolt (the Jamaican sprinter) could run the hundred meters in half the time (about 4.8 seconds)! That's a HUGE difference. The stumpy dwarves would be as fast as a the Krav Maga Agents and the nimble Arrow Gruts! If theme matters to you as you say, I can't imagine how you can be ok with that. It's not about taking sides. It's about internal consistency.

Maybe a units "move" isn't meant to refer to their speed in all cases.
We don't know how long a turn is in heroscape, it could be that it's supposed to be an hour real time. So the Axegrinders could just have really good endurance, slow and steady they go and never stop. Cheetahs are the fastest land animal recahing 70mph, so they cover ground quick, but they require a lot of rest after doing this to be able to do it again. Cheetah goes 60 for 60 seconds then takes a 59 minute break. Axegrinders go 2mph for an hour straight. So the cheetah goes 1 mile and the dwarfs go 2, dwarfs are faster. Yes! I'm siding with it doesn't matter if their hero is there or not.

These guys look cool, the coolest yet I think. Aquilla is my new favorite General.

Unrelated, I wanted to let anyone who missed it know that Rÿchean's Gen-Con map contest polls are up. I didn't see it annouced anywhere and thought it might of got overlooked by some due to the wave 9 stuff popping up. Here's a link. (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25185) tom put up links to all of the brackets in the second post.

[Sweetcurse]

I love the power of the unit, hate the theme, but accept the team's decision.

[kpotassiumk19]

In a lot of fantasy books the dwarves can run at a decent speed for a really long time although they don't run that fast.

[phazonme]

I like them mainly for there look, and then the powers.

[Sarpedon]

A ninja can go way faster than a dwarf for just as long in my opinion.

[Gentoo]

In LotR, Gimli was NOT as fast as Legolas, and Syvarris only has move 5 for comparison....
This isn't LotR.
And actually, the second book has Gimli sprinting alongside Legolas and Aragorn.
"Well, after them!" said Gimli. "Dwarves too can go swiftly, and they do not tire sooner than Orcs."The Two Towers: End of Book III, Chapter 1

[Sarpedon]

Are you sure that the book doesn't add that he slows them down terribly and that they eventually have to stop because he can't keep up?

[kpotassiumk19]

I was thinking of an example from the hobbit when the dwarves had to carry him because he couldn't keep up and the goblins didn't catch up with their fastest runners. They dropped the hobbit of course.

[Gentoo]

Are you sure that the book doesn't add that he slows them down terribly and that they eventually have to stop because he can't keep up?
Pretty sure, yeah. ;)

[kpotassiumk19]

Whoever knew that JRR Tolkien would be involved in an arguement over whether or not a speed bonus for the dwarves is thematical is hs.

[Sarpedon]

Well, if dwarves can run with elves and fly with eagles and swim with the penguins and grow taller than giants and shrink to be smaller than ants, well, you've got quite a game there. Enjoy it. I won't.

[Grungebob]

Jeez, you all will post and post and post about anything.

If you bond with the Axegrinders to one of your Dwarven Heroes each time you activate, you will find that you are using your army much more efficiently and effectively than if you just decided to move the Dwarves 6 spaces each turn. But since the option is ALWAYS there to move them 6, why would it be beneficial to remove it when a Dwarf hero is not in your army?

[NecroBlade]

And :gb: swoops in with the answer.

I hope Obama spends his $500 wisely.

[Majai of Dreams]

Wow..... OK... Wow...

I so wish I had access to a computer earlier this morning to join in on this discussion, or put my 2 cents in about what I think of the cards...
I almost feel like card appreciation has long past, and the time for debating must commence.

I think there are some great arguments on both sides, but I have to agree thematically, and logically, that the dwarves should have a base movement of 4.

Thematically because they are short stumpy heavily armored dwarves.
Maybe I am biased because I love elves and will refuse to let an elf be outrun by a dwarf!

And logically because the Bonding ability requires a Hero in play to use it. Bonding in its simplest form needs a hero to make it possible. I think Migol was meant to influence their movement. Hopefully an errata will clarify the card. The card says "you control".

If you don't need a dwarf hero, they could have called the ability, Dwarven mithril boots of happy go lucky speediness...

But they used "bonding", that sums it up for me...

[Grungebob]

And :gb: swoops in with the answer.

I hope Obama spends his $500 wisely.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I posed a question. The bottom line is that bonding is the ticket. It is a better deal than the 6 move. You're going to want to bond.

[Sarpedon]

I used to post well and infrequently and I was criticized. Now I'm writing short posts and still being criticized. It's ok. No worries. Anyhow, now that you're here, please tell me, the ruling is that the dwarves can move six if they don't first activate their dwarf hero, correct?

[Rifier_Ace]

Alright case closed. After about 20 pages of discussion on the matter.;) Thanks GB.

[kpotassiumk19]

Whether you want defense or move, the playtesters picked move because it was obviously better or they wouldn't had picked it. So why don't we stop arguing and being biast against dwarves because they are short and stumpy and agree that move is the better way to go.

[Grungebob]

I used to post well and infrequently and I was criticized. Now I'm writing short posts and still being criticized. It's ok. No worries. Anyhow, now that you're here, please tell me, the ruling is that the dwarves can move six if they don't first activate their dwarf hero, correct?I'm not criticizing you or even singling you out. I am simply trying to catch up after work. I see some folks are having a passionate debate over the move value of Dwarves. I see that they think that move of 6 is ok under some circumstances and not others. I see some folks are making good points left and right. I am not going to settle any arguments for you here without first getting more info on all of this.

[Sarpedon]

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for taking the time to properly consider the issue Grungebob. Truly the mark of a wise man. Rifler Ace, Necroblade, there is hope yet for MiddleEarth! lol

[GromBloodboy]

Grunge, you say dwarf Heros. As in plural. I smell some more dwarves soon.

[mad_wookiee]

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for taking the time to properly consider the issue Grungebob. Truly the mark of a wise man. Rifler Ace, Necroblade, there is hope yet for MiddleEarth! lol

I don't think he said what you think he said.

[rouby44]

I think you're right, Sweetcurse. It would have been better. In fact, I would have given them a defense boost of +2 (instead of movement boost). That way, if they move their hero, they have to cover him and expose themselves a bit. If they don't move their hero, they buckle down for a total of 5 defense. Thus, their base defense would be 5. If their hero moved first through bonding, it would drop to 3.

That can't work, because they don't defend on their turn.

[Jexik]

so hey guyz i waz playin wit my lil brother and he lef his dwarfs in iz starting zone all gaem wit out bonin them and then they were moivng liek 20 spaces a turn LOL some1 pls tell me how WotC let this happen!

i dmand ansurs!!!

[gorthan313]

so hey guyz i waz playin wit my lil brother and he lef his dwarfs in iz starting zone all gaem wit out bonin them and then they were moivng liek 20 spaces a turn LOL some1 pls tell me how WotC let this happen!

i dmand ansurs!!!



WotC iz skrewd sumtymz. We al no dat bi now.


Edit: I sincerely hope that people realize I was joking there....

[Jexik]

but liek who do their moev so fast wit such short LEGZ!

[gorthan313]

but liek who do their moev so fast wit such short LEGZ!


i tought dwarfs wer not ntural-brn sprnters!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Waitaminute here....
With these guys being released, do you all realize what is now possible with Jotun on the battlefield ?

Dwarf Tossing!

[gorthan313]

Waitaminute here....
With these guys being released, do you all realize what is now possible with Jotun on the battlefield ?

Dwarf Tossing!



Dwarf 1: Hay! Wat's up wit da big dude ovr dere!
Dwarf 2: Ak! He grabbd me!
Dwarf 1: U let hm go, u bg bully!
Jotun: Hehe. Me likey this dwarf-tossing part!
Dwarf 2: Dwarf-tossng? Dis don't sound good! AAAAAHHHHH!


Ok, I'm done with the "I hate SPELL CHECK" bit.

[kenjib]

Waitaminute here....
With these guys being released, do you all realize what is now possible with Jotun on the battlefield ?

Dwarf Tossing!

Up onto the castle wall no less...

[b57123m]

the climb x2 shouldnt be there because a dwarf can now reach higher points then drake or someone average height

[gorthan313]

the climb x2 shouldnt be there because a dwarf can now reach higher points then drake or someone average height


Drake can grapple but I see your point.

[nickmodaily]

So the arguement comes down to points. Is a 70 point dwarf with move of 6 too cheep so they had to hold them back with the requirement of hero being present?
Is a 70 point dward with move of 4 too much so they had to help them out with move advantage?

My instinct says the dwarfs are too good with the move of 6 so holding them back with the hero limitation makes sense.

Delurking here... I don't think it's a matter of "holding them back", it's about make them worth the points whether or not a hero is available to bond with.

That's how I read Grungebob's statement at least:
I think what you're seeing is an adjustment in the flexibility of certain powers so that point costing is more consistent. If all bonding had been designed this way years ago, I think the game would work slightly better. That said, this ability was not as easy as it looks to pin down.

So with normal bonding, if you don't draft the hero to bond with, then the squad is overpriced since that ability was accounted for in the point value. I.E. the dwarves aren't really worth 70 if they have nothing to bond with. Giving them the alternate of move +2 compensates.

Thematically, this also works for me:
Migol Ironbutt is so old and slow that bonding with him slows down the whole squad.

(Grungebob has all the answers. :) )

Of all the posts I've read in this thread, this one makes the most sense. If you missed it the first time through, read it again.

[Simpsons Scaper]

Most people dislike their move + or bonding ability, but I like it! I think it's unique and cool! However, I do see where something like +1 Attack may be better then +Move...

[Sweetcurse]

It's funny, I complain that the knights are slow, then the dwarves come and they are fast! He he he, all backwards.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

It's funny, I complain that the knights are slow, then the dwarves come and they are fast! He he he, all backwards.

Dwarves aren't weighed down by heavy armor. >_>

[Robotech Master]

I used to post well and infrequently and I was criticized. Now I'm writing short posts and still being criticized. It's ok. No worries. Anyhow, now that you're here, please tell me, the ruling is that the dwarves can move six if they don't first activate their dwarf hero, correct?I'm not criticizing you or even singling you out. I am simply trying to catch up after work. I see some folks are having a passionate debate over the move value of Dwarves. I see that they think that move of 6 is ok under some circumstances and not others. I see some folks are making good points left and right. I am not going to settle any arguments for you here without first getting more info on all of this.

Grungebob, the original issue wasn't about whether 6 move was a better option than bonding; the issue was, if Migol is killed and he's no longer active, are they then 6 move for the rest of the game, or does the option of bonding need to be there for them to attain 6 move.

It sort of devolved into arguments of theme and linguistics from there.

[ElvenEnvy]

It's funny, I complain that the knights are slow, then the dwarves come and they are fast! He he he, all backwards.
Dwarves are like little kids. They have short legs but after spending a day with little kids you're the one worn out.

I've always thought the move stat had a little stamina figure into it. Just figure the knights platemail and the dwarves have hides and chainmail.

[kpotassiumk19]

If the dwarves had plus attack or defense instead of move, they will be the most broken fig ever! Against a large or huge figure, they will have 5 attack and 4 defense or vice versa which is good for a hero! Not only that, but they are only 70 points and they common with 4 figs per squad and can bond! So compare x3 Axegrinders with +attack or defense against Braxas. She stands no chance against 12 dwarves getting 4 attacks a turn of 5. It will take Braxas 4 turns with extremely lucky d20 rolls to take them out, and in that time they will get a minimum of 16 attacks of 5! And that is only 210 points worth of dwarves going up against a squad killer! Even Zelrig might have trouble if they got +1 def because they would be even at 3 then if Zelrig gets a bad roll, there goes a whole turn. If you wanted a attack or defense bonus, they will need to be at least 100 points

[RobertDD]

I don't know if anyone else has, but I'd like to point out that Migol's horns are attached to his helmet, while the axegrinder that has horns actually has them grown out of his head through holes in his helmet! That is the only explanation for their difference in hit zones!

[Nwojedi]

Since everyone is talking about how great they are, i'll add something to the other side of the coin.

They are too short. If these guys are 3's, then the Keeblers would be like 5's or 6's. Especially those E.L. fudge ones. Those would be like an 8 on this scale. Lets try and keep things to scale here people. I'm sick of my snack treats not being to scale.

[kpotassiumk19]

Since everyone is talking about how great they are, i'll add something to the other side of the coin.

They are too short. If these guys are 3's, then the Keeblers would be like 5's or 6's. Especially those E.L. fudge ones. Those would be like an 8 on this scale. Lets try and keep things to scale here people. I'm sick of my snack treats not being to scale.

:rofl:

[Hero Hot Hatch]

Fearless Advantage: Small but vigorous and agile. They will be underestimated by the big guys and surprise them. That's simply cool. The big guys have to bend over to hit them and be less effective. I like how their size is consistent with their powers. They are also slow because their legs are short. Additionally, they are loyal and would not leave the leader behind. In other words: team players might sacrifice speed to stay together, but if the chance comes up to gang up on somebody, they'll take it. The icing on the cake is how cool they look. We are getting some cool squads no doubt.

[ElvenEnvy]

The one thing I do not like about the Dwarves are the generic classes- leader and fighters. I can understand not wanting to make Migol a Warlord or General and the Dwarves Guards or Hunters. But how about Warriors or Champions.

[rouby44]

Many here have argued that, according to various portrayals of Dwarves in fantasy as stout but slow-moving, the Axegrinders' should not be able to move 6 spaces in Heroscape. This argument makes sense on thematical grounds.

But as important as a consistent theme is, game mechanics should take precedence. I did a comparison of the Axegrinders to some of the units most similar to them in Heroscape, and I think that without the ability to move 6 spaces the Dwarves would be a very underpowered/overcosted squad. They would be far worse than Knights of Weston, Heavy Gruts, and Marro Drones, to name a few, even with the Fearson Advantage ability.

6-move, Non-bonding Axegrinders:17.5 points per figure
6 move
1 range
3 attack
3 defense
Fearless Advantage
Marro Drones:16.66 points per figure
6 move
1 range
3 attack
3 defense
Hive Swarm

Comments: With the same stats as the Dwarves, the Drones are cheaper per figure and average more than 4 attacks per activation despite being a 3-man squad.
Knights of Weston:17.5 points per figure
4 move
1 range
3 attack
4 defense
Human Champion Bonding
A Coward's Reward

Comments: Although the Knights are slower, bonding to Sir Gilbert makes their average move effectively 6 and gives them a 5th attack; they have one more defense die than the Dwarves and A Coward's Reward to boot for the same price per figure.
Heavy Gruts:17.5 points per figure
5 move
1 range
3 attack
3 defense
Orc Champion Bonding
Disengage

Comments: The Heavy Gruts have one fewer move than the Dwarves, but can always bond to a stat-boosting Champion, who also gives them a 5th attack. Disengage is handy too.

[Buddy Lee]

I'll admit GB's post on page 26 causes me some trepidation. However I will point you to the following:

Okay, this is a quickie, but we couldn't reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion:

Is there a requirement that you have an active dwarf hero in order for the Axegrinders to ignore them to get the +2 to move? Or conversely, could I draft 7xAxegrinders + Isamu and have all the Dwarves move 6?

~Aldin, inquisitively

ETA Link http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25202&page=6
As with all questions posted to this thread, now we have to have a pow-wow.



If the matter was so clear cut why a pow-wow.

Buddy Lee

[Yodaking]

I still kind of like the idea that you have to draft the dwarf hero in order to get the +2 movement bonus. Then that bonus is really factored into the cost of all dwarf heros, making Migol and any future Dwarf hero that much better.

[mad_wookiee]

I'll admit GB's post on page 26 causes me some trepidation. However I will point you to the following:

Okay, this is a quickie, but we couldn't reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion:

Is there a requirement that you have an active dwarf hero in order for the Axegrinders to ignore them to get the +2 to move? Or conversely, could I draft 7xAxegrinders + Isamu and have all the Dwarves move 6?

~Aldin, inquisitively

ETA Link http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25202&page=6
As with all questions posted to this thread, now we have to have a pow-wow.



If the matter was so clear cut why a pow-wow.

Buddy Lee

Because that's what they do with all questions posted to the thread, I'm guessing.

[Buddy Lee]

I'll admit GB's post on page 26 causes me some trepidation. However I will point you to the following:

Okay, this is a quickie, but we couldn't reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion:

Is there a requirement that you have an active dwarf hero in order for the Axegrinders to ignore them to get the +2 to move? Or conversely, could I draft 7xAxegrinders + Isamu and have all the Dwarves move 6?

~Aldin, inquisitively

ETA Link http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25202&page=6
As with all questions posted to this thread, now we have to have a pow-wow.



If the matter was so clear cut why a pow-wow.

Buddy Lee

Because that's what they do with all questions posted to the thread, I'm guessing.

Fair enough. Just as it should be.

Let the decision be made by a fair and impartial jury.

Buddy Lee

[Sherman Davies]

Hey Buddy Lee, maybe you should bribe the rules team with $490 and save yourself the Hamilton. :)

[Buddy Lee]

Hey Buddy Lee, maybe you should bribe the rules team with $490 and save yourself the Hamilton. :)

I trust their integrity.

If they playtested it with the understanding that it was a move of 6 unless you bond with a Dwarf Hero I will accept that. If that was how the card was designed to be, so be it.

Buddy Lee

[sirt]

I stand with Buddy Lee, thematicly and by the word. If you do not have a Dwarf Hero in your army, then you do not control one. If you do not control one, then you cannot decide to not take a turn with the Hero in order to get +2 move. Thematicly, dwarves are slow.

[Grungebob]

I know it seems dumb that you all are waiting for an answer on something that seems so simple. We are just waiting for all of the rules team to chime in so we can be sure all angels are covered. We don't want to step on toes here.

[Jaz1597]

I know it seems dumb that you all are waiting for an answer on something that seems so simple. We are just waiting for all of the rules team to chime in so we can be sure all angels are covered. We don't want to step on toes here.
Better that you guys all get to look at this, rather than giving us a shoot-from-the-hip answer just to placate us. We can be patient.

Thanks!

[mad_wookiee]

I confess, I just don't get it. Maybe I've spent too much time working in sql, but this seems really quite straightforward. Let me say it this way - "if" statements typically follow this pattern:

IF {condition}
THEN {outcome}
[ELSE {alternate}]

In this case, we have the following:

IF {you do not take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you control}
THEN {Axegrinders Move +2}

That's it. If you do not control a dwarf hero, then by default you fulfill the first condition. Have you taken a turn with a dwarf hero you control? No. Move +2.

Some of you are reading it like this:

IF {
AND {you control a Dwarf Hero},{you do not take a turn with him}
}
THEN {Axegrinders Move +2}

But that's not what it says. There is a single condition, not two.

Put another way:

When I activate the Axegrinders, I go through the following decision set:
1. Before taking a turn with the Axegrinders, I may take a turn with any dwarf hero I control.
2. Did I take a turn with any dwarf hero I control? If no, then Move +2.
At no point am I required to check to see if I actually control a dwarf hero.

By the logic being presented here, I couldn't complete the first decision either and thus could never take a turn with the Axegrinders if I didn't also control a dwarf hero. It's exactly the same phrasing.

[fomox]

...

I agree. But I'd still rather see the $500 spent on Scape!

--

Back to more interesting discussion:

About 10 pages ago someone mentioned Jotun throwing dwarves. I think they'll kill him before he has the chance, but something about chucking dwarves around the map just makes me laugh.

[NecroBlade]

I, too, have a desire to make Jotun throw dwarves. :lol:

[MechaBeast]

I, too, have a desire to make Jotun throw dwarves. :lol:

No one tosses a dwarf!

(thanks for the set-up)

I like these guys a lot. small, easily concealed, fast (when needed), squad of 4, and hard hitting hero to boot. I see these guys rushing to close the distance than using their bonding so Migol can catch up and smack people up.

I don't know if i'll be using them in large or small groups since they are better geared towards large and huge figs.

Im thinking
Grinders x 3
Migol
Krav
Raelin
500 points of knee bashing goodness

[SpartanNinja]

One could also look at it this way, the ability is a bonding ability. Without the hero that is being bonded with the ability cannot be used. The second sentence of the the ability can never be an option because the requirements for the first sentence of the ability haven't been met. The ability must be used in order. You can't initiate poison sting on a figure with Sujoah without first causing a wound, so why could you even initiate the ability without the bonded hero?

[RoninValentina]

One could also look at it this way, the ability is a bonding ability. Without the hero that is being bonded with the ability cannot be used. The second sentence of the the ability can never be an option because the requirements for the first sentence of the ability haven't been met. The ability must be used in order. You can't initiate poison sting on a figure with Sujoah without first causing a wound, so why could you even initiate the ability without the bonded hero?

Or you could look at it as an ability that could let you bond or gain a move bonus instead. If you have no one to bond with, well, you aren't going to choose to bond, so you gain a move bonus.

Now we've summed up the entire thread. :p

[SpartanNinja]

Or you could look at it as an ability that could let you bond or gain a move bonus instead. If you have no one to bond with, well, you aren't going to choose to bond, so you gain a move bonus.

Now we've summed up the entire thread. :p
It seems we almost have! :p

But, another question to be posed... why should you be rewarded for not drafting the hero...? It's like telling everyone to not use the guy if you feel like something else, but you can still get your bonus because you technically haven't taken a turn with him (you don't even have him)...

[RoninValentina]

Because you're trading an extra attack for +2 move. Which do you think is better most of the time?

[MechaBeast]

ahhh beat me

[Hal0fan117]

I, too, have a desire to make Jotun throw dwarves. :lol:

No one tosses a dwarf! "Alright toss me, but don't tell the elf!" ;)

[DBC]

I haven't read much of the history/mythology behind the Heroscape universe. So maybe I'm missing the obvious...
I have read in other posts that Migol is somehow connected to the Migol from the "Migol's Tomb" scenario, in the original rulebook.
But reading that description, I found out Migol-ll was an archkyrie. Are those guys not all winged creatures, or is there some other definition of an archkyrie?

[Einar's puppy]

I, too, have a desire to make Jotun throw dwarves. :lol:

No one tosses a dwarf!

Except for Jotun.

[Buddy Lee]

I know it seems dumb that you all are waiting for an answer on something that seems so simple. We are just waiting for all of the rules team to chime in so we can be sure all angels are covered. We don't want to step on toes here.

I (and my checkbook) patiently await your answer. :)

I also think that this is an opportune time to note:

I never said WHEN I would make the donation. By my calculations I have about 3 years and 5 months to do so, if need be. :twisted:

Buddy Lee

[nyys]

That's only 40 cents a day. :)

[Sarpedon]

First of all, astounding discussion, everyone. I'm glad I was/am a part of it.

As we await (happily, in my case) the official verdict, I would like to rehash points I had made earlier so it can be viewed from yet another perspective. If we were to ask what the normal move of the dwarves (squad) is, what would the answer be? Would it be 4 or 6? If it is 6, then why put 4 on the right side of the card?

Secondly, what benefit does the Dwarf hero bestow upon the dwarf squads? He gives them nothing if not greater movement. Bonding implies some sort of mutual help. It could be argued that he gives them an extra "super attack". Very well, but if he isn't drafted then he should give them no benefit at all and thus there would be no bonding and no speed boost either (because the enhanced speed is part of the bonding ability and, if there is no bonding because the hero is absent, there should be no move enhancement either).

Consider, also, that, with a normal move of 6, the dwarves would be able to climb higher and faster than (almost all) units with a height of 5 and a move of 6. The dwarves would be not only speedsters but monkey-like as well. Their option to move six and climb up to five should come at a price. Otherwise, these dwarves are not dwarves as we know them.

Finally, imagine that you were new to Heroscape but not to the miniatures/sword and sorcery world and you sat down to learn about Heroscape. Imagine that you were told that the dwarves have a normal move greater than or equal to that of the elves, humans and orcs and that they could, in a addition, climb faster. What do you think your reaction would be?

I know that it's just a game and that the designers and rules Mod. Squad can decide/rule as they see fit. However, the game must be internally consistent. It would be no problem for the dwarves to have a move of 6 if all ninjas, elves, humans, orcs, etc., had moves of 7, 8 or more. It should be relative. You could argue that dwarves in Valhalla are different from dwarves everywhere else. Yes, but I would rather not.

[Aldin]

If we were to ask what the normal move of the dwarves (squad) is, what would the answer be? Would it be 4 or 6? If it is 6, then why put 4 on the right side of the card?

One possible thought is that it is for internal consistency. The game functions in terms of base numbers and bonuses. Offhand, I can't think of any ability that directs you to subtract from a base number. Note that this is also the way the Marrden Hounds function, even though a base move of eight and subtraction would make for a 'cleaner' power and would show the most common speed.

As for flavor/theme, the ideas of overachieving Dwarves, smart Dwarves and efficient Dwarves are common enough. You could certainly think of their move bonus as efficiency - better using the time they have to cover ground. Everyone knows Elves are lazy - they even have a guy to teleport them so they don't have to walk! ;)

~Aldin, one part inspiration and nine parts perspiration

[killercactus]

I don't see the issue here. If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf hero you control, add 2 to their movement. To me, that statement has nothing to do with whether or not I have a dwarf hero in my army.

Do I have to have Runa in my army in order to not take a turn with her? No. Any turn I take with any unit in Heroscape is a turn I have not taken with Runa (and yes, I feel a slight amount of pain each time). It is the same with Migol and the Dwarves. If he is on the shelf and not on the battlefield, then I am obviously not taking turns with him (or any other Dwarven Hero). Therefore, my Axegrinders move 6.

Theme should have nothing to do with this conversation IMO. If you want theme to enter into it, just remember that these dwarves are natural sprinters, and very dangerous over short distances.

Also, against armies like Mass/10th and Vydar Range, you will want that 6 move. These guys, IMO, won't survive without it. It looks as if they were designed to kill Q9 (more A+ unit hate - I love it), but they can't do it if they never get there. I shouldn't have to spend an extra 110 points to do that if I don't want to (though usually, I probably do).

And also, I don't really get everyone's beef with Climb x2. So what - they can climb one level higher than an Izumi Samurai? So can the Deathreavers and Spiders, and no one cares about that. Monks can jump OVER CASTLE WALLS and no one cares.

[mnguy12000]

I too think the +2 movement is only if you have a hero, otherwise they would have made the card read 6, and wrote if you use bounding your move drops to 4 but you control your hero for no points. It doesnt make sense either the a dwarves would move that much.

I believe we'll see the ruling be only if you control and/or draft a dwarf hero.

[ZBeeblebrox]

I too think the +2 movement is only if you have a hero, otherwise they would have made the card read 6, and wrote if you use bounding your move drops to 4 but you control your hero for no points. It doesnt make sense either the a dwarves would move that much.

I believe we'll see the ruling be only if you control and/or draft a dwarf hero.

Yes, but what happens when Morsbane negates the Bonding...then they are a 4 movement unit. This is a speacial ability that grants them 6 Move, unless they are bonding. Then they sloww down so the slow-ass hero can catch-up ;)

[killercactus]

I too think the +2 movement is only if you have a hero, otherwise they would have made the card read 6, and wrote if you use bounding your move drops to 4 but you control your hero for no points. It doesnt make sense either the a dwarves would move that much.

I believe we'll see the ruling be only if you control and/or draft a dwarf hero.

No, they would not have. See Aldin's quote above about the Marrden Hounds - they're the same.

[clancampbell]

Yes, but what happens when Morsbane negates the Bonding...then they are a 4 movement unit. This is a speacial ability that grants them 6 Move, unless they are bonding. Then they sloww down so the slow-ass hero can catch-up ;)

Morsbane can not affect common squads. I made the same mistake wayyyy back on page 15 or so.

This debate has raged for about 24 hours non stop. What an awesome community we have, or we all have too much time on our hands.;)

[nyys]

Yes, but what happens when Morsbane negates the Bonding...then they are a 4 movement unit. This is a speacial ability that grants them 6 Move, unless they are bonding. Then they sloww down so the slow-ass hero can catch-up ;)

Morsbane can not affect common squads. I made the same mistake wayyyy back on page 15 or so.

This debate has raged for about 24 hours non stop. What an awesome community we have, or we all have too much time on our hands.;)

...or the productivity at several hundred businesses, colleges, and high schools across the country has plummeted significantly. :)

[Sweetcurse]

If we were to ask what the normal move of the dwarves (squad) is, what would the answer be? Would it be 4 or 6? If it is 6, then why put 4 on the right side of the card?

One possible thought is that it is for internal consistency. The game functions in terms of base numbers and bonuses. Offhand, I can't think of any ability that directs you to subtract from a base number. Note that this is also the way the Marrden Hounds function, even though a base move of eight and subtraction would make for a 'cleaner' power and would show the most common speed.

As for flavor/theme, the ideas of overachieving Dwarves, smart Dwarves and efficient Dwarves are common enough. You could certainly think of their move bonus as efficiency - better using the time they have to cover ground. Everyone knows Elves are lazy - they even have a guy to teleport them so they don't have to walk! ;)

~Aldin, one part inspiration and nine parts perspiration


You forgot sugar, spice, and a bit of insanity.

[Sherman Davies]

If we were to ask what the normal move of the dwarves (squad) is, what would the answer be? Would it be 4 or 6? If it is 6, then why put 4 on the right side of the card?

One possible thought is that it is for internal consistency. The game functions in terms of base numbers and bonuses. Offhand, I can't think of any ability that directs you to subtract from a base number. Note that this is also the way the Marrden Hounds function, even though a base move of eight and subtraction would make for a 'cleaner' power and would show the most common speed.

Exactly. The only Heroscape power I can think of offhand that involves subtraction is Spider-Man and Venom's Web Special Attack. Heroscape generally adds bonuses, not penalties, and the Dwarves' bonding would've looked less attractive if it had been worded, "If you take a turn with any Dwarf hero you control, subtract 2 from the Axegrinder's move." It's a simple style choice.

[Jexik]

If we were to ask what the normal move of the dwarves (squad) is, what would the answer be? Would it be 4 or 6? If it is 6, then why put 4 on the right side of the card?

One possible thought is that it is for internal consistency. The game functions in terms of base numbers and bonuses. Offhand, I can't think of any ability that directs you to subtract from a base number. Note that this is also the way the Marrden Hounds function, even though a base move of eight and subtraction would make for a 'cleaner' power and would show the most common speed.

Exactly. The only Heroscape power I can think of offhand that involves subtraction is Spider-Man and Venom's Web Special Attack.

Zelrig too fellas. (And some others that take them all away, or reduce them to 1)

[1Mmirg]

Though those are mostly attack-based powers/abilities, etc., not a unit's own power. I think there is a general rule to keep the base at the low ponit and add from there for special powers (which, it seems, are seen to be largely bonuses). Aldin's example of the Hounds is excellent, and the same is true for the Anubians and others.

(Cyprien/Sonya does have a power that includes a negative, but only as a balance to a significant positive power. The same for the Stingers--it is mostly a positive power, with a small potential (embedded) negative.)

[clancampbell]

I think the percived lack of negative is what is throwing folks off on the dwarves. The thought that you get a plus 2 to move even if you don't include your hero can be seen as a lack of negative. I can see the train of thought on this.
However, as GB has said, bonding with the hero is the bread and butter of this unit. Its better to bond than to get the +2 move. So, in essence, not bonding is the negative. Not bonding is the sacrifice for the +2 move.

GB has also said the stratigic bonding is a cost balance measure. Imagine, if these guys had normal bonding, (ie: KOW, Romans, Greeks, etc..). Would they then be worth 70 points?

This is why I belive that you don't need the hero, in order to get the +2.

[Rich10]

Monks can jump OVER CASTLE WALLS and no one cares.Shaolin monks really can jump/fly. I've seen it in a few movies.

[killercactus]

Monks can jump OVER CASTLE WALLS and no one cares.Shaolin monks really can jump/fly. I've seen it in a few movies.

Liu Kang was a Shaolin Monk, and he can shoot fireballs, turn into a dragon, and drop arcade machines on people.

Point is, if the Dwarves in Valhalla can climb, I'm cool with it.

[Cavalier]

Buddy, get out your check book.

Dwarves:

Axegrinders do get the extra 2 move whenever they activate but do not choose to bond.

This means that if you do not draft a Dwarven Hero in your army, you will have fast dwarves with every activation.

In Heroscape there are traditional units but there are also units that might not behave as you'd expect. Look at Sgt drake and his samurai sword, or Dead eye Dan and his ullar rifle, or Valguard and his arm. Yes with the right rolls a viking squad can out run a viper squad.

[J4Jandar]

Monks can jump OVER CASTLE WALLS and no one cares.Shaolin monks really can jump/fly. I've seen it in a few movies.

Liu Kang was a Shaolin Monk, and he can shoot fireballs, turn into a dragon, and drop arcade machines on people.

Point is, if the Dwarves in Valhalla can climb, I'm cool with it.

Just enjoy the Dwarves already! :D

[jedilou]

Thanks for the clarification, Grungebob (and Cavalier).

Thus, ends 31+ pages of debate over a 24 hour period.

[Buddy Lee]

:footinmouth:

Well. Not the answer I was expecting, but its good to get it clarified none-the-less.

I will let you know when I fullfill my commitment.

Buddy Lee

[nyys]

Thanks for the clarification, Grungebob (and Cavalier).

Thus, ends 31+ pages of debate over a 24 hour period.

Nah, we'll still get a few that will argue that point regardless of the Rules Team decision.

[SuperflyTNT]

A ninja can go way faster than a dwarf for just as long in my opinion.

Depends on the dwarf and the ninja, huh? If you have a morbidly obese 90-something ninja that emigrated to America and had a diet of Big Macs and Coke, well, maybe not.:lol:

[Cavalier]

Thanks for the clarification, Grungebob (and Cavalier).

Thus, ends 31+ pages of debate over a 24 hour period.

Nah, we'll still get a few that will argue that point regardless of the Rules Team decision.
My thoughts, exactly.;)

[Grungebob]

:footinmouth:

Well. Not the answer I was expecting, but its good to get it clarified none-the-less.

I will let you know when I fullfill my commitment.

Buddy Lee
I wouldn't say you put your foot in your mouth. It is good to see so many folks so passionate about Scape. There was enough of a tug of war here that we felt we needed to give it some time.

[Jexik]

As rouby44 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=832616&postcount=336) said, 6 move dwarves make them look better next to Sacred Band and some of the other cheaper squads.

I really like these optional powers that they're putting in this wave now, like Strategic Bonding and Tracking.

[SpartanNinja]

Dwarves:

Axegrinders do get the extra 2 move whenever they activate but do not choose to bond.

This means that if you do not draft a Dwarven Hero in your army, you will have fast dwarves with every activation.

In Heroscape there are traditional units but there are also units that might not behave as you'd expect. Look at Sgt drake and his samurai sword, or Dead eye Dan and his ullar rifle, or Valguard and his arm. Yes with the right rolls a viking squad can out run a viper squad.

I still don't see why you should be able to get the advantage of movement if you don't draft the hero... the bonding on these guys are really not so great that it is the bread-and-butter... I would rather invest the hero's points elsewhere seeing as I can...

But if that's how they ruled, then that's the ruling. I'm acceptant. 8)

Besides, it's not like I had any money wagered on this :p

[J4Jandar]

A ninja can go way faster than a dwarf for just as long in my opinion.

Depends on the dwarf and the ninja, huh? If you have a morbidly obese 90-something ninja that emigrated to America and had a diet of Big Macs and Coke, well, maybe not.:lol:

You ARE speaking of this ninja right?

http://www.dvdvcdplaza.com/cdimages/eng_beverly_hills_ninja.jpg

[Grungebob]

Dwarves:

Axegrinders do get the extra 2 move whenever they activate but do not choose to bond.

This means that if you do not draft a Dwarven Hero in your army, you will have fast dwarves with every activation.

In Heroscape there are traditional units but there are also units that might not behave as you'd expect. Look at Sgt drake and his samurai sword, or Dead eye Dan and his ullar rifle, or Valguard and his arm. Yes with the right rolls a viking squad can out run a viper squad.

I still don't see why you should be able to get the advantage of movement if you don't draft the hero... the bonding on these guys are really not so great that it is the bread-and-butter... I would rather invest the hero's points elsewhere seeing as I can...

But if that's how they ruled, then that's the ruling. I'm acceptant. 8)

Besides, it's not like I had any money wagered on this :p
It's out of respect for everyone that felt as you do that we took some time to weigh in on this.

[Obsidian]

I would rather invest the hero's points elsewhere seeing as I can...


I think it is better in most situations to take an extra turn with the hero and move more slowly with the squad, rather than get the movement bonus.

[Biggie]

I can't believe all the wanking over this wave so far! First it was wanking about it taking so long. Now it's because "I don't like that sculpt", "I don't like there attributes" and "I think I'll pass on this wave." It's as if were getting a wave every 2 months or something. Look at the positive people!
Thank you.

[Jexik]

I can't believe all the wanking over this wave so far! First it was wanking about it taking so long. Now it's because "I don't like that sculpt", "I don't like there attributes" and "I think I'll pass on this wave." It's as if were getting a wave every 2 months or something. Look at the positive people!
Thank you.

Okay, here's a positive. I think that this might be the coolest and most played Wave since Utgar's Rage, and we've only seen around half of it.

[NecroBlade]

I can't believe all the wanking over this wave so far!
Um, what? Have they started releasing figures that look like this (http://www.thenewblog.net/diora-baird.jpg) or something?

(I apologize ahead of time for the inappropriateness of this post, but "Biggie's" terminology had to be addressed.)

[ZBeeblebrox]

I can't believe all the wanking over this wave so far! First it was wanking about it taking so long. Now it's because "I don't like that sculpt", "I don't like there attributes" and "I think I'll pass on this wave." It's as if were getting a wave every 2 months or something. Look at the positive people!
Thank you.

Okay, here's a positive. I think that this might be the coolest and most played Wave since Utgar's Rage, and we've only seen around half of it.

I agree with Jezix...this Wave rocks!!!

[A_Train]

I can't believe all the wanking over this wave so far! First it was wanking about it taking so long. Now it's because "I don't like that sculpt", "I don't like there attributes" and "I think I'll pass on this wave." It's as if were getting a wave every 2 months or something. Look at the positive people!
Thank you.


I haven't seen an overwhelming amount of negativity, and haven't seen anyone say they will pass on the wave (granted, the thread moves faster than I can keep up).
The most complaints seem to be about TBR's sculpt, but even people complaining about that say they will still buy him (in some cases in multiples).

This sort of discussion is just what is to be expected. I am so happy about what we have seen so far, it is all awesome.

[SpartanNinja]

It's out of respect for everyone that felt as you do that we took some time to weigh in on this.

And I wholeheartedly thank you for that! It's great that you guys took some time to think it through :D


EDIT: I too haven't seen any negativity at all really, Tul-Bak-Ra's sculpt is the only thing I've seen anyone complain about... this thread's conversation had no one really complaining about anything either, just a little difference in people's interpretations of the ability. No one has complained yet about the outcome!

[demon_llama]

Cool. This has been an interesting debate to watch. Now that that's solved I can't wait to see the next set of previews so we can have a 30+ pages of debate on them...

(no sarcasm intended, I really enjoyed the logical debate).

[Buddy Lee]

So.

How much do 50,000 pennies weigh?

:twisted:

Buddy Lee

[fomox]

So.

How much do 50,000 pennies weigh?

:twisted:

Buddy Lee

A lot. Or you could send them 19 master sets...

[Retlaw]

As rouby44 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=832616&postcount=336) said, 6 move dwarves make them look better next to Sacred Band and some of the other cheaper squads.

I really like these optional powers that they're putting in this wave now, like Strategic Bonding and Tracking.

I don't know: Sacred Band + Marcus vs. Axegrinders + Ironwill would seem pretty even.

Sacred Band would be:
5 move
3 attack (4 if you keep Marcus next to them)
3 defence (assume disciplined army)
+ bonding with Marcus
+ 10 points available for another figure

Axegrinders would be:
4 move (if you use the bonding)
3 attack
3 defense
+ bonding with Ironwill

OR

6 move
3 attack
3 defense
no bonding

Plus, at this point, you also have the option of having Parmenio in your army giving the SB two warlords to bond with while the Axegrinders only have one dwarf hero to bond with.

[Aldin]

So.

How much do 50,000 pennies weigh?

:twisted:

Buddy Lee

About 276 pounds and it'll cost you about $280 to ship em to the White House (you'll need to send it in four boxes to get under the 70 lb. Max).

~Aldin, surprised it was so light

[Buddy Lee]

So.

How much do 50,000 pennies weigh?

:twisted:

Buddy Lee

About 276 pounds and it'll cost you about $280 to ship em to the White House (you'll need to send it in four boxes to get under the 70 lb. Max).

~Aldin, surprised it was so light

Nope. Gonna drop them off at some local campaign office. Let the Zombies do all the work.

Buddy Lee

[Agent Minivann]

So.

How much do 50,000 pennies weigh?

:twisted:

Buddy Lee
1 penny weighs about 2.5 grams (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_a_US_penny_weigh) x 50,000 pennies = 125 kg or about 275 lbs

EDIT: Ninjaed, Man I'm slow today.

[Xray]

Hello everybody,

I've been playing Heroscape for only a year so this is my first experience with a new wave coming out. I am very excited and can only imagine how it felt seeing all the other waves being released.

Even though I have less experience than most of the other posters, I have an opinion on this subject (those who know me, know I have an opinion on almost everything).

The card reads "If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero you control, add 2..." The important part of the phrase is "...YOU CONTROL..." because it adds a condition and it must be met to add the movement bonus.

By removing "...you control...", it would read as follows; "If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero, add 2...". you would add +2 move wether you drafted Migol or not because the only condition is "If you did not take a turn...".

With the wording "...you control..." though, it adds a new condition. You must control a dwarf hero. The way I read it, you can replace "...you control..." by "...you drafted/mind shackled..." and then the rule is very clear "If you do not take a turn with a hero you drafted/mind shackled, add 2...". What I believe is important about the "...you control..." is that it is possessive the same as "...you drafted/mind shackled..." because you must draft or mind shackle to "control".

The only ambiguity is if Migol is dead, do you still control him?

Where I believe some people are being led to confusion is that they don't believe that "...you control..." is a condition but it is.

Let's just see what all the conditions are in both sentences of the rule and see what the logic flow is:

"Before taking a turn with Axegrinders of Burning Forge, (1.)you may take a turn with any (2.) Dwarf Hero (3.)you Control. If (4.)you do not take a turn (5.)with any Dwarf Hero] (6.)you control, add 2..."

Q1. Can you take a turn with X?

1. "... you may take a turn..." therefor Q1=TRUE
and 2. "...with a Dwarf Hero..." If X = "Dwarf Hero" then Q1=TRUE else Q1=False goto Q2
and 3. "...you control..." If X = "you control" then Q1=TRUE else goto Q2

Result: If Q1=True, take a turn.


Q2. Can you add 2 to move?

4. "If you do not take a turn..." IF Q1 not = true then Q2=TRUE else Q2= FALSE
5. "...any Dwarf Hero..." IF X="Dwarf Hero" then Q2=TRUE else Q2=FALSE
6. "... you control..." If X="you control" then Q2=TRUE else Q2=False

Result: If Q2= TRUE, add 2 move. If Q2 = False, no movement.


So if you have Migol:
Q1 = TRUE, TRUE, TRUE. So you may take a turn.
If you don't take a turn Q2 = TRUE, TRUE, TRUE. You may therefore add 2 movement.

If you don't have Migol:
Q1 = TRUE, FALSE, FALSE. You may not take a turn.
Q2 = TRUE, FALSE, FALSE. You may not add movement.

Sorry for the long post. I hope somebody follows my logic cause It all makes sense in my head but might not come across in a post.

Thanks.

If you didn't take a turn

[Xray]

OOPS!

By the time I wrote my post it seems a ruling has been declared. Sorry for the useless post. I still stand by my opinion the you should draft Mogil to get the bonus.

[Cavalier]

Hello everybody,

I've been playing Heroscape for only a year so this is my first experience with a new wave coming out. I am very excited and can only imagine how it felt seeing all the other waves being released.

<snip>
If you don't have Migol:
Q1 = TRUE, FALSE, FALSE. You may not take a turn with Migol (added for clarification).
Q2 = TRUE, FALSE, FALSE. You may not add movement. This is NOT correct.

Sorry for the long post. I hope somebody follows my logic cause It all makes sense in my head but might not come across in a post.

Thanks.

If you didn't take a turn
The answer has already been officially given: No Migol in your army = +2 Move for Axegrinders.

[Grungebob]

OOPS!

By the time I wrote my post it seems a ruling has been declared. Sorry for the useless post. I still stand by my opinion the you should draft Mogil to get the bonus.Wow, it took you over an hour to post that? :p

[Xray]

OOPS!

By the time I wrote my post it seems a ruling has been declared. Sorry for the useless post. I still stand by my opinion the you should draft Mogil to get the bonus.Wow, it took you over an hour to post that? :p


I'll take that as a compliment....

[Sarpedon]

Greetings, everyone.

Well, that was fun. Unfortunately, the official ruling did not go my way. Congratulations to those who argued against me for having presented such a strong case. Even though things did not go my way, I am grateful for the analysis which has given me the opportunity to examine these units in depth. I think we all came out ahead in that sense.

Of course, my personal opinion is unchanged although I must accept the rules as they are whether I like them or not. Wow. We now have the fastest and best-climbing "dwarves" in the fantasy universe!

[zombie prime]

OOPS!

By the time I wrote my post it seems a ruling has been declared. Sorry for the useless post. I still stand by my opinion the you should draft Mogil to get the bonus.

Wow, it took you over an hour to post that? :p


I'll take that as a compliment....

Yeah, some of us here are slow posters...:D I think I average 3-5 minutes between starting the post, editing the post, and posting the post.

[TOG]

By removing "...you control...",


Folks would be trying to take a turn with their opponents Dwarf Hero...

[Aldin]

Wow. We now how the fastest ... "dwarves" in the fantasy universe!

Second fastest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG7rBQLlh7Y

~Aldin, hey... you're the one who said "WoW"

[Sarpedon]

World of Warcraft? LOL, that guy could really motor. A dwarf that can run faster/longer than a (presumably) good horse. Yeah. Well, on the "plus"(?) side, no one will ever be able to use the point of theme to argue for or against the power of a unit in Heroscape again. Theme means absolutely nothing. Too bad. I liked theme.

[Xray]

I was just wondering, have rulings ever been revised because this one just plain doesn't make sense to me. Dwarves are now some of the fastest units which just doesn't sound right to me and they climb faster then units twice their size.... Ah well, this just makes them even better so I won't complain but I know I will drafting these Q9 killers every game.


This is just my opinion but wouldn't it of been simpler to just word the bonus this way?

Dwarven Strategic Bonding
Before taking a turn with Axegrinders of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you Control.

Dwarven Speedy Feet
If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero, the Axegrinders of Burning Forge may add 2 to their move number.

Voila! Nobody would confuse the rules because there is no ambiguity....

P.S.

Love the sculpts on these guys...

[nyys]

It wouldn't be Strategic Bonding in that case. The strategy part being whether to take the +2 move or take a turn with a Dwarf Hero.

[TOG]

Dwarven Speedy Feet
If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero, the Axegrinders of Burning Forge may add 2 to their move number.

Voila! Nobody would confuse the rules because there is no ambiguity....



Not necessarily. Someone would probably ask if that meant you couldn't use the Hero this round or this game...

[Agent Minivann]

I was just wondering, have rulings ever been revised because this one just plain doesn't make sense to me. Dwarves are now some of the fastest units which just doesn't sound right to me and they climb faster then units twice their size.... Ah well, this just makes them even better so I won't complain but I know I will drafting these Q9 killers every game.


This is just my opinion but wouldn't it of been simpler to just word the bonus this way?

Dwarven Strategic Bonding
Before taking a turn with Axegrinders of Burning Forge, you may take a turn with any Dwarf Hero you Control.

Dwarven Speedy Feet
If you do not take a turn with a Dwarf Hero, the Axegrinders of Burning Forge may add 2 to their move number.

Voila! Nobody would confuse the rules because there is no ambiguity....

P.S.

Love the sculpts on these guys...
I would have preferred a base move of 6 and a cost of 2 move to take the turn with the bonded hero.

In hindsight I didn't even think about how silly climb x2 is with a movement of less than 6. *looks at Migol* Hey, wait a minute...

[Sarpedon]

It's not silly at all. Remember the (+2) speed glyph?

[Xray]

Just in jest, but I believe that the ruling has nothing to do with gameplay but was a plot to add 500$ to Obama's campaign fund. There are some very sly admins on this site!

[Just_a_Bill]

Axegrinders do get the extra 2 move whenever they activate but do not choose to bond.
Very happy to hear that the ruling supports the plain reading of the text.

When this goes into the FAQ, I would strongly recommend deleting the phrase "choose to" -- its inclusion actually tends to fuel the wrong interpretation (when there's no Dwarven the Hero in my army, I don't get a choice; the whole reason people were confused in the first place is because they thought they had to make a conscious choice not to bond in order to get the +2).

[The B.I.V.]

Axegrinders do get the extra 2 move whenever they activate but do not choose to bond.

When this goes into the FAQ, I would strongly recommend deleting the phrase "choose to" -- its inclusion actually tends to fuel the wrong interpretation (when there's no Dwarven the Hero in my army, I don't get a choice; the whole reason people were confused in the first place is because they thought they had to make a conscious choice not to bond in order to get the +2).

But then if you include a dwarven hero you lose the option to move your dwarves 6, which makes Strategic Bonding less strategic.;)

Brandon

[Buddy Lee]

Just in jest, but I believe that the ruling has nothing to do with gameplay but was a plot to add 500$ to Obama's campaign fund. There are some very sly admins on this site!

I have every confidence that this is not the case.

I know some of these people, and they know me. I cannot begin to imagine that they would do something like this.

Because if they did . . . :headshake:

Buddy Lee

[GaryLASQ]

I would have preferred a base move of 6 and a cost of 2 move to take the turn with the bonded hero.
I agree. It would have made more sense to just design them with a base move of 6 and say that bonding with a Dwarf hero takes 2 off the base move.

I also think I would have preferred it if the Axegrinders didn't get the +2 move unless there's a Dwarf hero in your army that's still active (alive and kicking), in order to choose not to bond and get the +2. But the SP doesn't get into that kind of detail (even though it could be inferred), which I imagine is why we got the ruling we just did.

[Xray]

Hello,

I tried the match up calculator to see how the Dwarves would fare against Major Q9 and the results really surprised me. If 4 dwarves are engaged with Q9, they have a 44% chance of winning. Not bad for 70 points...

The kicker is that if 8 dwarves are engaged, they have a 93% chance of success. WOW! For 140 points, you get a great Q9 counter. With their, now official, move of 6, they can catch up to Q9 in one or two strikes which would able about 6 out of 8 dwarves to reach Q9 and with 6 dwarves, your chances of winning against Q9 are 78%. Even with only 5 units, your chances are 62%. I'm pretty sure we will be seeing a lot of these little guys on the playing fields...

I'm starting to believe that the Dwarves were designed as a Q9 counter...

Other matchups:

8 Dwarves vs Braxas : 93%
8 Dwarves vs Nilfheim: 97%
8 Dwarves vs Zelrig: 99%
8 Dwarves vs Jotun: 99%

I know that the calculator doesn't take into account range or movement but still, these Dwarves are great.

[killercactus]

93% against Braxas? Really, even with Acid Breath?

However, it certainly does seem like the dwarves were created to take out Q9. 4-4 stats against him, enough move to catch up to him, and their hero has Deadly Strike, 4 defense, and One Shield Defense (Migol probably does OK against Q9 himself).

Deathreavers could be a problem for the Dwarves, though. But, the Mohicans match up very well against Reavers, and I think the Repulsors will be a thorn in both the Rats' and Q9's sides.

[Cleon]

For my upcoming tournament I'm hosting with my friends and my Dad I want to make sure I know every rule and answer for the Wave 9 units so that no newer, or older, players have unanswered questions. I asked my question on the Mohican bonding and I'm down with them now, the Marro are pretty straight forward, but I do have one question on the Dwarves. Their bonding allows you to have a choice of Migol (only dwarf hero right now) or +2 move. When I first read it I thought you could only get the +2 move if you have a dwarf hero rather than having 6 move always when you don't play Migol (/other, future dwarf heroes). Because of the wording on the card persuades me to believe you can only recieve the +2 if you have a Dwarf hero and choose not to bond with him because the wording to me seems like you can only choose the 2nd choice if you can choose the first choice, or have two choices. If your dwarf hero(es) die(s) and you still have some Axegrinders, then that would also eliminate the choice of bonding thus the choice of +2 move, along with just playing Axegrinders without dwarf heroes. Or, can the ability work both ways (choices) always, regardless if you can't do the first - bonding with a dwarf hero. This would allow you to always have up to 6 move with the Axegrinders whether you play any Dwarf heroes or not or if your dwarf heroes die out with some Axegrinder left. I'm now leaning towards the second way since it seems others are allowing and playing that way (always 6 move if you play no Dwarf Heroes). And I'm fine with that way, I think it makes them even more competative and creates a lot of strategy in competative army picking. So which way is it?

[A_Train]

This has been covered quite extensively in the past few days, and the verdict is, you can always have 6 move regardless of whether you actually drafted a dwarf hero, or if he is dead ect, and only get 4 if you actually bond.

[Sweetcurse]

Thanks GB! I think that taking an extra squad of dwarves and having an extra 50 points to work with is better than bonding. It's not like the hero adds any bonuses to the dwarves.

[Cleon]

This has been covered quite extensively in the past few days, and the verdict is, you can always have 6 move regardless of whether you actually drafted a dwarf hero, or if he is dead ect, and only get 4 if you actually bond.

Ok cool, that's what I was expecting but really wanted to make sure and positive. Thank you, A_Train. :)

[Cavalier]

For my upcoming tournament I'm hosting with my friends and my Dad I want to make sure I know every rule and answer for the Wave 9 units so that no newer, or older, players have unanswered questions. I asked my question on the Mohican bonding and I'm down with them now, the Marro are pretty straight forward, but I do have one question on the Dwarves. Their bonding allows you to have a choice of Migol (only dwarf hero right now) or +2 move. When I first read it I thought you could only get the +2 move if you have a dwarf hero rather than having 6 move always when you don't play Migol (/other, future dwarf heroes). Because of the wording on the card persuades me to believe you can only recieve the +2 if you have a Dwarf hero and choose not to bond with him because the wording to me seems like you can only choose the 2nd choice if you can choose the first choice, or have two choices. If your dwarf hero(es) die(s) and you still have some Axegrinders, then that would also eliminate the choice of bonding thus the choice of +2 move, along with just playing Axegrinders without dwarf heroes. Or, can the ability work both ways (choices) always, regardless if you can't do the first - bonding with a dwarf hero. This would allow you to always have up to 6 move with the Axegrinders whether you play any Dwarf heroes or not or if your dwarf heroes die out with some Axegrinder left. I'm now leaning towards the second way since it seems others are allowing and playing that way (always 6 move if you play no Dwarf Heroes). And I'm fine with that way, I think it makes them even more competative and creates a lot of strategy in competative army picking. So which way is it?
Now, now, Cleon. You've been here long enough to know to search (or read) before posting your question. ;)

Dwarves:

Axegrinders do get the extra 2 move whenever they activate but do not choose to bond.

This means that if you do not draft a Dwarven Hero in your army, you will have fast dwarves with every activation.

In Heroscape there are traditional units but there are also units that might not behave as you'd expect. Look at Sgt drake and his samurai sword, or Dead eye Dan and his ullar rifle, or Valguard and his arm. Yes with the right rolls a viking squad can out run a viper squad.

[Cleon]

For my upcoming tournament I'm hosting with my friends and my Dad I want to make sure I know every rule and answer for the Wave 9 units so that no newer, or older, players have unanswered questions. I asked my question on the Mohican bonding and I'm down with them now, the Marro are pretty straight forward, but I do have one question on the Dwarves. Their bonding allows you to have a choice of Migol (only dwarf hero right now) or +2 move. When I first read it I thought you could only get the +2 move if you have a dwarf hero rather than having 6 move always when you don't play Migol (/other, future dwarf heroes). Because of the wording on the card persuades me to believe you can only recieve the +2 if you have a Dwarf hero and choose not to bond with him because the wording to me seems like you can only choose the 2nd choice if you can choose the first choice, or have two choices. If your dwarf hero(es) die(s) and you still have some Axegrinders, then that would also eliminate the choice of bonding thus the choice of +2 move, along with just playing Axegrinders without dwarf heroes. Or, can the ability work both ways (choices) always, regardless if you can't do the first - bonding with a dwarf hero. This would allow you to always have up to 6 move with the Axegrinders whether you play any Dwarf heroes or not or if your dwarf heroes die out with some Axegrinder left. I'm now leaning towards the second way since it seems others are allowing and playing that way (always 6 move if you play no Dwarf Heroes). And I'm fine with that way, I think it makes them even more competative and creates a lot of strategy in competative army picking. So which way is it?
Now, now, Cleon. You've been here long enough to know to search (or read) before posting your question. ;)

Dwarves:

Axegrinders do get the extra 2 move whenever they activate but do not choose to bond.

This means that if you do not draft a Dwarven Hero in your army, you will have fast dwarves with every activation.

In Heroscape there are traditional units but there are also units that might not behave as you'd expect. Look at Sgt drake and his samurai sword, or Dead eye Dan and his ullar rifle, or Valguard and his arm. Yes with the right rolls a viking squad can out run a viper squad.

Yeah I apologize, I really should've looked harder and I knew it had been discussed. But I didn't realize how frequently it was asked. :oops:. I can't believe I didn't look into it before hand, really, hahaha.

[kpotassiumk19]

I love how no is one talking about Migol. He is only 110 points and he has a deadly combo between attack and defense. Deadly strike is good because you have a 25% chance of rolling 4 attack and even a 50% chance of rolling 2 attack which is pretty decent. Also, if my math is correct, you will have a 15 out of 16 percent chance of one shield defense going into effect, which will allow him to easily survive 5 attacks not counting rolls that deal 0. These two figures (migol and the axebringers) are a deadly hero killing combo, and a swarm killer such as Zelrig will be the perfect compliment for this army.

[clancampbell]

Thanks GB! I think that taking an extra squad of dwarves and having an extra 50 points to work with is better than bonding. It's not like the hero adds any bonuses to the dwarves.

It is true that the Dwarves are playable on their own, but as we all know, bonding is a pretty powerfull ability. Not to mention, that while Migol adds no bonuses to the Axegrinders, he is a very stout hero in his own right.

Many players like the Romans/Ne-gok-sa combo, even though NGS adds no bonuses to the Romans.

[Aldin]

Thanks GB! I think that taking an extra squad of dwarves and having an extra 50 points to work with is better than bonding. It's not like the hero adds any bonuses to the dwarves.

40, not 50. And the biggest part of the boost is effectively turning the Axegrinders into a five member squad.

~Aldin, who agrees that there are likely some great Migol-less Dwarf armies

[Jaz1597]

Thanks GB! I think that taking an extra squad of dwarves and having an extra 50 points to work with is better than bonding. It's not like the hero adds any bonuses to the dwarves.
I'm always a fan of getting two order markers for the price of one...

[kenjib]

I think it makes plenty of thematic sense - crazy berzerk dwarves tearing across the battlefield to attack their enemy. I like that image. They can either charge scattered across the field, or approach in a more organized way - slowly but sticking together.

[skyknight]

Never discount bonding....like someone said it turns it into a squad of 5...but even more so. Migol can take a beating so he has some staying power...that makes him very nasty as more dwarves move in to back him up. He is almost like the 5th man of many squads as his allies fall around him yet new ones come into play. Whereas once a dwarf goes down in one hit you have to bring another forward and waste time.

[Sweetcurse]

Without the option to move +2 and getting an extra squad and 40 points left over, then I'd agree that bonding is better. Migol is great, amazng really, but I can do better for 110 points. Besides, there's nothing quite as sad a melee squad with move of four.

[spiteofthedice]

Proxied 3 squads of Axegrinders with Migol, Finn and Eldgrim last night against Jotun, Krug, Minions, and Monks.

They are molten awesome. One of the heartiest squads yet.

And Yes, the Knights are right up there with them, but they don't bond with Migol.

1-Shield Defense + Deadly Strike + Finn the Viking Champion + Bonding with a great squad = :aquilla: :thumbsup: :aquilla:

It's really all about the math.

[Grishnakh]

I think it makes plenty of thematic sense - crazy berzerk dwarves tearing across the battlefield to attack their enemy. I like that image. They can either charge scattered across the field, or approach in a more organized way - slowly but sticking together.

(Well, as usual I'm late to the party.)

However, theme wise, Migol must be the worst hero ever at inspiring his troops.

When he's on the battlefield and in command he "strategically" charges ahead and his troops "strategically" drag their feet and move slower with him.

Migol: "Come on dwarves of the Burning Forge! Charge!"

Axegrinders (dragging their feet): "Eye eye sir, you just go ahead, we'll be right behind you!"

And when he's not on the battlefield his troops are much happier and charge into battle enthusiastically.

Axegrinders: "Lets go dwarves of the Burning Forge! We don't have that SOB of a commander to slow us down and make bad "strategic" decisions for us!"

I now understand why this unit was named the "Axegrinders". As ruled they've apparently got an axe to grind with their commander.

[forceful nature]

I like how they went to Aquilla, and not Ullar or Jandar. Aquilla now has enough figures to create an army with, and throw in some Ullar and you're all set.:D

totally agree: pumped for Aquilla. t'will be nice to see some more dwarves on my maps.

[Sarpedon]

I think it makes plenty of thematic sense - crazy berzerk dwarves tearing across the battlefield to attack their enemy. I like that image. They can either charge scattered across the field, or approach in a more organized way - slowly but sticking together.

That makes sense. I would have had less of a letdown if their move had been 5 instead of 6. As far as theme goes, I think some people would say that they found it thematic even if the dwarves could fly 10 spaces. It's no longer an issue, though.

[Sarpedon]

I think it makes plenty of thematic sense - crazy berzerk dwarves tearing across the battlefield to attack their enemy. I like that image. They can either charge scattered across the field, or approach in a more organized way - slowly but sticking together.

(Well, as usual I'm late to the party.)

However, theme wise, Migol must be the worst hero ever at inspiring his troops.

When he's on the battlefield and in command he "strategically" charges ahead and his troops "strategically" drag their feet and move slower with him.

Migol: "Come on dwarves of the Burning Forge! Charge!"

Axegrinders (dragging their feet): "Eye eye sir, you just go ahead, we'll be right behind you!"

And when he's not on the battlefield his troops are much happier and charge into battle enthusiastically.

Axegrinders: "Lets go dwarves of the Burning Forge! We don't have that SOB of a commander to slow us down and make bad "strategic" decisions for us!"

I now understand why this unit was named the "Axegrinders". As ruled they've apparently got an axe to grind with their commander.

Ok, I'm sorry, but this is a brilliant post! I wish I had thought of framing it that way earlier. Curse ye for arriving late to the party!

[hex706f726368]

(Well, as usual I'm late to the party.)

However, theme wise, Migol must be the worst hero ever at inspiring his troops.

When he's on the battlefield and in command he "strategically" charges ahead and his troops "strategically" drag their feet and move slower with him.

Migol: "Come on dwarves of the Burning Forge! Charge!"

Axegrinders (dragging their feet): "Eye eye sir, you just go ahead, we'll be right behind you!"

And when he's not on the battlefield his troops are much happier and charge into battle enthusiastically.

Axegrinders: "Lets go dwarves of the Burning Forge! We don't have that SOB of a commander to slow us down and make bad "strategic" decisions for us!"

I now understand why this unit was named the "Axegrinders". As ruled they've apparently got an axe to grind with their commander.

Worst hero...or best hero? His troops are so in awe of their leader's prowess in battle they begin to stand around and gawk at his sheer awesomeness. ;-)

[Grishnakh]

Worst hero...or best hero? His troops are so in awe of their leader's prowess in battle they begin to stand around and gawk at his sheer awesomeness. ;-)

As the card unfortunately leads me to conclude I vote for sheer ineptitude. :D

[chas]

From a design standpoint, the large puzzle framework that is Heroscape now has more of the jigsaw pieces filed in that rebalance the game in a rock-paper-scissors way. Just as Samurai were originally the 'answer' to Deathwalkers, Dwarves are clearly the 'solution' to a number of too powerful and too often used figures such as Q9. The designers originally set themselves a mighty task in filling out the game over time, and I'm glad expansions have lasted to complete a good chunk of the large tapestry that has become Heroscape!

[ganondorf557]

I dunno I think its more along the lines that he inspires his soldiers to go faster. Like something along the line of this:

The battle is raging around Migol and his band of Axegrinders. Syvaris walks up and fires two shots into Migol's chest piercing the dwarf's armor killing Migol in the process. In his final breath Migo tells his soldiers "Arg' go get 'im boys. Leave me behind and run like you have never run before." "Yes sir! Charge!" The group of Axebringers empowered by the anger of their commander's death charge with new found speed on his killer. Even Syvaris is surprised at their new found speed and before he has to time to escape the Axebringers have caught him. "There be the tree lover. Get 'im!" A few moments later the Axebringers have defeated their foe and race off to reenter the fray.

[Einar's puppy]

From a design standpoint, the large puzzle framework that is Heroscape now has more of the jigsaw pieces filed in that rebalance the game in a rock-paper-scissors way. Just as Samurai were originally the 'answer' to Deathwalkers, Dwarves are clearly the 'solution' to a number of too powerful and too often used figures such as Q9. The designers originally set themselves a mighty task in filling out the game over time, and I'm glad expansions have lasted to complete a good chunk of the large tapestry that has become Heroscape!
It's really neat, isn't it? We are always asking "What about ___ " and the designers seem to have an answer. They thought this game out a long way, and I'm glad they did. A round of aplause for CVG and crew.

EDIT: Ganondwarf, are your dwarves pirates or something?

[mad_wookiee]

As rouby44 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=832616&postcount=336) said, 6 move dwarves make them look better next to Sacred Band and some of the other cheaper squads.

I really like these optional powers that they're putting in this wave now, like Strategic Bonding and Tracking.

I hope this is a portent of things to come. Anything that adds meaningful decision is great in my book.

:thumbsup:

[Eirikr]

I am so glad the power works as it is worded. For one thing it makes the game stay clean and simple. Yay! For another it makes the dwarves a very competitive squad/hero combo and offers a real counter to Q9 and friends which we greatly need.Yay!
And as for those crying about theme, heroScape is an entirely new world and we have but to observe in awe to learn what are the ways of Valhalla. This in no way counters any of the previously established thematic trends in the game and so is not 'out of theme'. This is not tolkien's Middle Earth or the D&D universe (same thing really) this is a new and wonderful world of quick little dwarves, and blue orcs that can kill a giant robot with one bone tipped arrow. Yay!

[Cavalier]

I am so glad the power works as it is worded. For one thing it makes the game stay clean and simple. Yay! For another it makes the dwarves a very competitive squad/hero combo and offers a real counter to Q9 and friends which we greatly need.Yay!

And as for those crying about theme, heroScape is an entirely new world and we have but to observe in awe to learn what are the ways of Valhalla. This in no way counters any of the previously established thematic trends in the game and so is not 'out of theme'. This is not tolkien's Middle Earth or the D&D universe (same thing really) this is a new and wonderful world of quick little dwarves, and blue orcs that can kill a giant robot with one bone tipped arrow. Yay!
Preach it, brother! 8)

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

I made a map that was inspired by Migol for the Gen-con map contest. Voting is open in the second round Here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25226), Here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25225), and Here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25227).

Anyway my map was eliminated in round one, so I thought now would be a good time to give a link to it in this thread as I didn't want to while it was still being voted on for feeling that it may have given my map an unfair advantage. I'm not trying to promote my map thread or anything, I just thought some of you might find this map amusing.:) The map is the first one in the first post. Click here. (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21634&highlight=migol%27s+toilet)

[Soundwarp SG-1]

And as for those crying about theme, heroScape is an entirely new world and we have but to observe in awe to learn what are the ways of Valhalla. This in no way counters any of the previously established thematic trends in the game and so is not 'out of theme'. This is not tolkien's Middle Earth or the D&D universe (same thing really) this is a new and wonderful world of quick little dwarves, and blue orcs that can kill a giant robot with one bone tipped arrow. Yay!

:word:

I, for one, am glad that our Dwarves aren't the same generic fantasy cookie cutter Dwarves most games use.

I really like the Axegrinders powers, they're like wee SAS Commandos!

[Sherman Davies]

A dwarf that can run faster/longer than a (presumably) good horse. Yeah. Well, on the "plus"(?) side, no one will ever be able to use the point of theme to argue for or against the power of a unit in Heroscape again. Theme means absolutely nothing. Too bad. I liked theme.

No offense Sarpedon, but this comes off sounding a bit like sour grapes. Yes, the theme of the Axegrinders is certainly different than what most of us would've expected from dwarves, myself included, but that is certainly not the same as accusing the unit of having no thematic integrity. They're still within the bounds of being recognizable as fantasy dwarves - they're short, bearded, focused on melee, and good at fighting giants. It's not as if they're ranged flyers flinging around fireballs or anything. Close enough for me.

[Sarpedon]

A dwarf that can run faster/longer than a (presumably) good horse. Yeah. Well, on the "plus"(?) side, no one will ever be able to use the point of theme to argue for or against the power of a unit in Heroscape again. Theme means absolutely nothing. Too bad. I liked theme.

No offense Sarpedon, but this comes off sounding a bit like sour grapes. Yes, the theme of the Axegrinders is certainly different than what most of us would've expected from dwarves, myself included, but that is certainly not the same as accusing the unit of having no thematic integrity. They're still within the bounds of being recognizable as fantasy dwarves - they're short, bearded, focused on melee, and good at fighting giants. It's not as if they're ranged flyers flinging around fireballs or anything. Close enough for me.

Sour grapes? Perhaps you didn't see a previous post in which I congratulated those who argued the opposite position for having presented such good arguments (by the way, no one from the other side returned the courtesy: I guess my posts sucked and my arguments were worthless). I was wrong in the way I interpreted the card. That, however, does not change how I feel about these "dwarves".

You say they're still within the bounds of being recognizable as dwarves to you? Great. I wish I could say the same for the way I feel about them. I'm not sure what more you want me to say. If you expect me to change my personal opinion about them as they have officially been ruled to be, then I can tell you that ain't happening. In my opinion, they're "dwarves" in name and (very nice) sculpts only. That said, I'm glad some members like them as they are and I hope you have fun playing them.

P.S. As far as theme goes, Grungebob himself said that units will sometimes not be what we expect from our experiences and he cited several examples including the "dwarves". What is theme if not what we would normally expect? What are "themed" armies? Yeah. Theme doesn't matter. It may be there sometimes, but it will only be coincidental or at most a very small consideration. Things in Valhala are different than everywhere else. This means that anything is possible. I didn't quite want to believe that at the start of the thread, but I fully understand it now. I get it.

[Sherman Davies]

I'm not sure what more you want me to say. If you expect me to change my personal opinion about them as they have officially been ruled to be, then I can tell you that ain't happening.

Not trying to pick a fight here...

I certainly don't expect you to change your opinion about the dwarves; you are completely entitled to your own opinion, of course. Whether or not the dwarves are "dwarfy" enough for an individual is pretty subjective territory. It just seemed to me that your comment that "Theme means absolutely nothing" might have been a bit unfair to the designers and playtesters, that's all. If that isn't what you intended (it probably wasn't), then I apologize for misunderstanding you and defending them against a slight that didn't occur.

[Sarpedon]

No need to apologize. It's all good. In the future, though, if anyone tries to use theme as a point for/against a unit having certain powers/abilities, I will definitely remind them that things in Valhalla are not (always) what you'd expect from experience. It'll save a lot of time if nothing else.

My comments on theme were just a rephrasing of what Grungebob himself had said to explain why dwarves were so speedy and such great climbers.

[NecroBlade]

(by the way, no one from the other side returned the courtesy: I guess my posts sucked and my arguments were worthless)
I thought the logic on your side of the argument was reasonably sound and would've still been satisfied had the ruling gone that way instead. However, if you're going to whine about not getting a pat on the back and a "nice try" from the other team, you don't deserve one, IMHO. :headshake:

[Sarpedon]

I wasn't complaining/whining at all. I was defending myself against a "sour grapes" accusation that I believe I in no way merited. I gave full credit to the members who (successfully) argued an opposing point of view. I mentioned that no one from the other side had done the same for me to further stress that I in no way deserved to be accused of being a sore loser. I took the lack of recognition in stride. I had not said a word about it.

[NecroBlade]

"No one from the other side returned the courtesy" and "I guess my posts sucked and my arguments were worthless". Yeah, why say those things if you don't have a case of sour grapes? :roll:

[Sarpedon]

I just explained this. I was trying to illustrate that, before the "sour grapes" post, I was content to remain silent in spite of not having had my courtesies returned. I didn't expect them to be returned. However, to then be accused of being a sore loser is quite a different matter all together. However, this is way off topic and the topic itself is dead anyway. I hope you liked my posts. I did my best to write them. I interpreted the card wrong. I enjoyed the discussion. All the best.

[Just_a_Bill]

I wasn't complaining/whining at all. I was defending myself against a "sour grapes" accusation that I believe I in no way merited.
It's sour grapes, and you're whining. The underlying sense of "the designers made a mistake and they'll be sorry!" is apparent in several of your recent posts. The more you deny it, the more obvious it becomes.

Take a deep breath and give yourself some time to reflect. The sooner you stop digging, the less deep the hole will be when you're ready to recognize it.

[RoninValentina]

Hey everyone?

Instead of discussing yes or no on sourgrapes, who's right and who gets or deserves kudos, why don't we all just stop talking about it now? It's not serving any purpose but generating further drama.

- Ronin

[skyknight]

And besides which...my favorite units haven't even been revealed yet:D

[A_Train]

But I have a feeling about today...

[Knight_Of_Einar]

I'm hoping to see Atlaga and the Protectors today, Or even Kamiko and the Gladiators, the Repulsers would be good to but not my First choice.....Ahh I just want to see more, but can you blam a guy.

[johnny139]

And besides which...my favorite units haven't even been revealed yet:D

Gah. You're such a jerk-tease. :p

(Though methinks the Mohicans are going to be at the top of my list.)

[Knight_Of_Einar]

The hero that I admire most so far is Migol, I love his sculpt and his Powers are sweet, Plus he is A Dwarf and common who hates dwarfs.....BTW that was retorical

[tech boy]

I think That my favorite sculpt so far is also Mingol. The colors were done nicely and his bonding with the dwarfs, I have a feeling that Ill be using that special a whole lot.

[Buddy Lee]

Look. If anyone is going to have sour grapes around here its me. I disagree with the rulling, but what is done is done.

I figure on getting at least 4 packs of these guys, and I don't particularly like melee units (I'm really wondering what the Repulsors will do to/for my Snipers). Looking at them in total they are by far one of the best melee units in the game.

Let's see>

4 packs x $11.00 per pack = $44.00

$44.00 for figures / 2 to factor out the Repulsors = $22.00

$500.00 to fullfill my honor + $60.00 in material and fuel/wear-tear to sort and carry 50,000 pennies to the local campaign office = $560.00

$22.00 for figures + $560.00 for contribution = $582.00

$582.00 total cost / 16 figures = $36.37 cents per Dwarf.

Having some good scape with my friends: Priceless.

Buddy Lee

BTW: Anyone who touches on of my $36.37 Dwarves gets their XXXX cut off. :chainsaw:

[RobWeaver]

I have the feeling his nickname is going to be "Midol" pretty quickly. :)

[clancampbell]

I have the feeling his nickname is going to be "Midol" pretty quickly. :)

Player 1: "Ah man, Player 2 just drafted Agent Skahen. She is so beast, its like she's got pms."

Player 3: "No worries, I'll draft the dwarf hero that cures pms, Midol."

[Revdyer]

I have the feeling his nickname is going to be "Midol" pretty quickly. :)
As was said, June 20th, 2008 (almost a year ago):

From the Compendium (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=201):

Migol II - Two-hundred years before the rise of the Valkyrie, Archkyrie Migol II ruled over most of Upper Bleakwoode and the ancient lands of Lür. A tomb was built for him on top of a barren hill named Barrenspur. He may be the Archkyrie who conquered the lands of Archkyrie Navess, but this is not certain.

Migol III - Son of Archkyrie Migol II, who built a tomb for his father on Barrenspur.Ya'll keep spelling the name wrong.
http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/10180/200.jpg

[Rich10]

I tried the matchup calculator using the dwarves vs large and huge figures. With every large figure, 6 dwarves beat almost every dragon (other than charos), soulborg, Krug, Brunak, Tor-Kul-Na, ... Charos was defeated by 7 dwarves.

Are the dwarves broken???

[Cavalier]

I tried the matchup calculator using the dwarves vs large and huge figures. With every large figure, 6 dwarves beat almost every dragon (other than charos), soulborg, Krug, Brunak, Tor-Kul-Na, ... Charos was defeated by 7 dwarves.

Are the dwarves broken???
Let's play them before we call them broken.:roll:

I have great faith in the Design team, so I do not think this is the case.

[BigBadBruinsMac]

I tried the matchup calculator using the dwarves vs large and huge figures. With every large figure, 6 dwarves beat almost every dragon (other than charos), soulborg, Krug, Brunak, Tor-Kul-Na, ... Charos was defeated by 7 dwarves.

Are the dwarves broken???

Dragons can FLY so if you see dwarves coming, FLY AWAY and don't let yourself become surrounded!!

[killercactus]

I tried the matchup calculator using the dwarves vs large and huge figures. With every large figure, 6 dwarves beat almost every dragon (other than charos), soulborg, Krug, Brunak, Tor-Kul-Na, ... Charos was defeated by 7 dwarves.

Are the dwarves broken???

And how do they do against 4th Mass? Stingers? Trons? 10th? Knights? Deathreavers? I don't know myself, but I'm sure not as good.

If every unit in Heroscape was Large or Huge, then yeah, they might be broken. Most units aren't though, so I wouldn't worry about it. I'm with Cav - the design team has done a great job thus far.

[clancampbell]

I tried the matchup calculator using the dwarves vs large and huge figures. With every large figure, 6 dwarves beat almost every dragon (other than charos), soulborg, Krug, Brunak, Tor-Kul-Na, ... Charos was defeated by 7 dwarves.

Are the dwarves broken???

And Snow White was befriended by 7 dwarves.;)

Dwarves aren't broken, clearly a couple of squads of dwarves against Charos, the dwarves will win most of the time. However, you have to consider the bigger picture. What other support units will the charos side have?

[Rich10]

Fair enough. Lets see how they play.

[TOG]

I tried the matchup calculator using the dwarves vs large and huge figures. With every large figure, 6 dwarves beat almost every dragon (other than charos), soulborg, Krug, Brunak, Tor-Kul-Na, ... Charos was defeated by 7 dwarves.

Are the dwarves broken???

The dwarves are no more broken against big figs than Zelrig against common figs.

The knights or the drones for that matter should easily handly the dwarfs.

[skyknight]

I used to mop the floor with the dwarves when I played the Mohicans...trust me, they have their strengths...but they are also very beatable, as it should be.

[padlock]

My worry with the Dwarfs is that it seems that, with a few exceptions, they were designed to work well against a class of figures that already were somewhat underpowred.

Other then Q9, Nilfheim, and perhaps Braxas, most large and huge figures aren't really all that highly regarded. Now, with the Dwarfs, marginal figures like Sujoha, Wo-Sa-Ga, Tor-Kul-Na, DeathStalkers, Groks, Hounds, Jotun, Su-Bak-Na, Gueri-Oni, Brunack, etc. are all even worse then before.

If anything, this seems likely to reduce the amount of variety in the game (at least competitive variety).

Maybe my concerns are unfounded. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how they play.

[killercactus]

My worry with the Dwarfs is that it seems that, with a few exceptions, they were designed to work well against a class of figures that already were somewhat underpowred.

Other then Q9, Nilfheim, and perhaps Braxas, most large and huge figures aren't really all that highly regarded. Now, with the Dwarfs, marginal figures like Sujoha, Wo-Sa-Ga, Tor-Kul-Na, DeathStalkers, Groks, Hounds, Jotun, Su-Bak-Na, Gueri-Oni, Brunack, etc. are all even worse then before.

If anything, this seems likely to reduce the amount of variety in the game (at least competitive variety).

Maybe my concerns are unfounded. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how they play.

I highly doubt it will reduce the variety. Even now, if I want to play Minions in a tournament I don't think "Crap! What if everyone plays Braxas!! I'm screwed!" Similarly, if I want to play any of those figures, I'm not gonna think "Crap! What if everyone plays dwarves!! I'm screwed!"

And, the reality of it is, even against those figures, dwarves aren't that much better than Knights or Orcs. There are still ways of dealing with them.

[gamjuven]

Dwarves will have lots of trouble against a ranged medium army. Deathreavers and range will crush them I think.

[theats]

Any thoughts on a more comprehensive dwarf Army?

I know that typically in this game we will have a particular squad and a hero for them, but does Aquilla yet have a backbone force?

I mean, Einar as ht e southeast asian armies, so would the dwarf's be sufficient to build off of, for instance, some crossbowman?

[gamjuven]

I would like some crossbowman, or maybe axe-throwers as a ranged dwarf unit. Heck, I'm also always for the steampunk dwarf theme as well. Give 'em a blunderbus!

I would think we would need at least one more dwarf hero to make the dwarf army a little better.

[spiteofthedice]

Any thoughts on a more comprehensive dwarf Army?

I know that typically in this game we will have a particular squad and a hero for them, but does Aquilla yet have a backbone force?

I mean, Einar as ht e southeast asian armies, so would the dwarf's be sufficient to build off of, for instance, some crossbowman?

I don't see any of the other generals' themes as so narrow. Einar has a southeast Asian thing going on, sure, but he also has Gurei-Oni, who may be inspired by Asian mythology, but certainly does not share an apartment in Japan with his two buddies from business school. And Zelrig does not run a Bar & Grill in Hong-Kong called "Majestic Fires." I don't think kyrie are Asian either.

Obviously, historical and geographical inspiration has been divided among the generals, but I see them fitting more conveniently into a Norse "Low, Middle, High Earth" setup. Jandar and Einar get the humans. Ullar gets the elves, the griffin, the generally-pretty High Earth. Aquilla seems to be getting Low Earth - the lone warrior, the creepy-crawlies, the spiritual natives, and the dwarves. Utgar gets to be Hel, of course.

Vydar as Heaven is the part I haven't quite figured out yet.

[1Mmirg]

Vydar as Heaven is the part I haven't quite figured out yet.

Vydar is the heavens--the stars and space and beyond. :)

[Revdyer]

The 10th Regiment of Foot would be surprised, I suspect, to find out they are Asian.

[spiteofthedice]

Point taken, Rev. But I think the 10th Reg only went to Einar because the designers couldn't figure out where else to put them. Geographically, they fit best with Jandar's generally-Western theme - Americans, Norsemen and Europeans, but they couldn't be tossed into the same army as the 4th Mass, so they went to the other general who likes humans.

[skyknight]

I think they should have gone to Utgar:p

[gorthan313]

Point taken, Rev. But I think the 10th Reg only went to Einar because the designers couldn't figure out where else to put them. Geographically, they fit best with Jandar's generally-Western theme - Americans, Norsemen and Europeans, but they couldn't be tossed into the same army as the 4th Mass, so they went to the other general who likes humans.


But I think that the Tenth are too militaristic and Disciplined to be a part of Jandar's army. Personality-wise, they fit better with Einar.

[Sweetcurse]

Dwarves will have lots of trouble against a ranged medium army. Deathreavers and range will crush them I think.

Not if paired with the repulsors and Omics. :D

[spiteofthedice]

Dwarves will have lots of trouble against a ranged medium army. Deathreavers and range will crush them I think.

Not if paired with the repulsors and Omics. :D

Leave it to Sweetcurse to ruin a perfectly good derailment. ;)

On-topic, though, against a ranged medium army, the dwarves might actually stand a chance, given how hard it is to take down Migol. One-Shield Defense gets him into melee, then the hammer goes to work. I haven't tried it yet, and I'm sure it won't be universally effective, but I think Migol goes a long way to compensating for the dwarves weaknesses in both Move and Defense.

Deathreavers, however, might be just as scary as you say.

[RoninValentina]

Einar's theme is Empire. That's why he has British 10th Reg, Samurai, Roman Legionaires, and so on. It's not a geographical theme, its organizational. Just as we've learned Aquilla's theme is tribal.

[gamjuven]

I mean say what you will about the argument about the knights vs. the dwarves, but you have to agree they are more similar than different, and right now the we know the knights have a tough time against ranged armies and especially ones that use the deathreavers. The 4 dwarves a squad I think could do a decent job against the reavers, but getting shot at while trying to get through will be tough. But time will tell.

I can't wait to hear about more playtesting and see how the units play off each other.

[The B.I.V.]

This expansion wave is awesome! I can't wait to play with the Axegrinders of Iron Burning Forge! WoW HS is the best game ever!!!

Brandon

[donaldb]

This expansion wave is awesome! I can't wait to play with the Axegrinders of Iron Burning Forge! WoW HS is the best game ever!!!

Brandon
I get the feeling you are trying to imply something.

[Einar's puppy]

Dwarves will have lots of trouble against a ranged medium army. Deathreavers and range will crush them I think.
Thats why they work well with the MRT. The MRT do great against reavers.

[Firemaster]

Obviously, historical and geographical inspiration has been divided among the generals, but I see them fitting more conveniently into a Norse "Low, Middle, High Earth" setup. Jandar and Einar get the humans. Ullar gets the elves, the griffin, the generally-pretty High Earth. Aquilla seems to be getting Low Earth - the lone warrior, the creepy-crawlies, the spiritual natives, and the dwarves. Utgar gets to be Hel, of course.

Vydar as Heaven is the part I haven't quite figured out yet.

There is actually one thing I have noticed as a theme in Aquilla's units so far: protectiveness. Dwarves, Native Americans, Monks, Insects; most of these are generally known to be very territorial, and not very receptive to outsiders. This theme is also rather prevalent in the fact that many of their abilities are defensive in nature.

This somewhat supports my theory of the reason why she has not joined the fight earlier. She is more or less a loner, content to let everyone else sort out their fighting. She is only joining the fight now that her territory is being threatened (SoTM).

[White Noise]

I find it interesting that they get an attack bonus against Krug... in some fantasy books (Discworld novels immediately come to mind), dwarves are known to have a hatred of trolls.

[Super Platapus]

I think that the dwarves will be better with a faster move, better climbing abilities, and a great hero to bond with when they don't need the extra move
P.S. I think that that the dwarves climb ability comes from little climbing pick's they hid under their belts =)

[Robotech Master]

I find it interesting that they get an attack bonus against Krug... in some fantasy books (Discworld novels immediately come to mind), dwarves are known to have a hatred of trolls.

And in D&D, they particularly hate Giants. So even that carries over to our lovely valhallan dwarves.