Religious Debate for or against HS

[jaamartin]

I was reading the posts here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21609), and was making the following reply when it occured to me that it did not fit the original post. Soo... I am cross-linking here to a new topic to keep the other topic.. um.. on topic. ;)

[jaamartin]

Into:

Where to begin... First, great topic, and the following is in no way to be viewed, read, or interpreted as an attack on anyone regardless of how guilty it may make one's conscience... Second, I think it has gone a little off topic a little and will leave it at that.
Now for the meat of my reply...

I personally have a conflict with whether or not to continue playing HS due to my family. Yes... Southern Baptist.... Yes... The game is evil because it has demonic forces at work... read that as it is written.. not images.. not themes.. but AT WORK....

Background:

There are numerous agents out in the world that are vying for your soul. They will do anything, become anyone, and will present themselves in the most attractive and seductive form possible to steal you away from God. They do this in little steps at a time. They make cartoons that start off early giving our youth the mental images that objects/theories of current religious beliefs are not valid*1, and therefore when the child is old enough to make decisions for themselves they will have a more open mind to doing what "feels good" rather than "what is right by God".
Argument:
Look at it this way… The majority of the commercials on after 9:00 PM on the weekdays, and often times before noon on the weekends! Cialus, Viagra, Red-Bull, the Axe commercials, Call now for free adult chat services {adult my baboon butt cheeks! By the look of the women on the phone it is more than “adult”, 18+ years or older… I wonder how many old man heart attacks they have been party too…}. Yes, I am considered an “ultra-conservative” on a lot of things, but this DOES lead to the wrong mental images for someone of faith, especially children.
Question:
With this argument in mind, how can one justify HS as being playable by anyone? I can agree that the eyes are the most vulnerable part of faith, they are for me, but I grew up around D&D, EarthDawn, Stratego, shoot, even Monoploy is evil based upon the argument given above. Is this just a case of, “Wear the armor of God” and make sure there are no broken straps when you play these games?
Advice Seeking:
I know they are just games, so don’t get into a “Freak! It is a game” arguments… I just don’t know how to argue that point to my family, let alone use that as an argument for my 11-year old. Or my 5-year old for that case who wants to do everything that Daddy does and wants to win any game against her older sister!
I understand that every child is different, but when do you stand your ground on something when the argument is approaching fanaticism versus intelligent debating? The argument, at least to me, is valid as it was presented because it is not just a matter of what a figure looks like, but what it is doing to a person. It numbs the mind to what the religious side of things link to the physical appearance of the figure. Therefore, Marro’s or Zombies are evil because in religious visage, they are correlated to evil, and by accepting them as “only a game” then they are allowing other evil things to become acceptable in one’s life as they are breaking down the lines of what is good and evil.
Conclusion:
I am not sure if I have presented the argument, and my overall questions about the argument intelligently, or completely. I have re-read this post several times, changed a few things, and now am so confused I am afraid of making the whole thing complete gibberish that it would be unreadable and give the appearance that I have been mind-flayed*2. I am comfortable in my faith to be able to play these games, but what of my children? Is it a real indicator that I am having conflicts of faith that I find it acceptable?


Footnotes:
*1 The pink cat thing that was in the Hanna-Barbara cartoons. "Exit Stage Right Even" which was ALWAYS stated in a masculine voice but sounds WAY too feminine coming from a man!
*2 This term was coined before World of Warcraft in the Pen-And-Paper RPG of EarthDawn. It was probably used before even that though so.

[jschild]

I personally think it's silly to avoid playing with "scary" or "demonic" figures.

They are just that, figures, and will not corrupt anyone that is mentally stable to any degree. They will not cause someone to start worshipping the devil, practice evil, or any standard silliness.

[Cavalier]

Growing up, some of my favorite toys were the original Masters of the Universe (He-Man) toys.

•Big buff He-Man never made me feel like I was inadequate because I didn't look like him.
•Skeletal-faced sorcerer Skeletor never made me want to sell my soul and begin a life of witchcraft.
•Good guys fighting bad guys never made me want to kill my neighbors.
•'Over sexualized' figures like Tela or the Sorceress didn't turn me in to a sexual deviant.

My point? I was raised in a conservative home with strong religious moors. Playing with these toys in no way caused me to deviate from those foundations. I truly believe that anyone who in all honesty is affected by toys or a game in this fashion would have been affected by some other thing if not for that product. In otherwords, I believe that the fault and defect lie in the individual, not the product. This isn't to say that as a parent I do not make judgement about what is or is not permissable to my children, its just that I do not believe that the imagery of this game nor its back story are in anyway damaging. :2cents:

[rouby44]

I think it is silly it is to say that Heroscape has "demonic forces at work". To say that there are people out there designing games and cartoons as part of one grand scheme to steal your soul is simply maniacal conspiracy theory.

Heroscape is a fantasy game that draws on history, myths, legends, and folklore from around the globe. But Hasbro and WotC do not have a religious agenda - they are simply in the entertainment business. If someone has problems with zombies or vampires or whatever it is being in the game, then they can choose not to play.

Personally, if I had young children and I was concerned about the content of the game, I would ask them how they felt about particular figures. If some part of the game makes them feel uneasy or gives them nightmares, then perhaps it's not for them. However, I doubt thathappens very often.

I think it's best for adults to allow children to learn to think for themselves, rather than micro-managing their every ethical dillema, especially when it comes to such a trivial matter as a 1"-tall plastic figure looking "evil". How else are they going to develop their own conscience?

[Aldin]

jaamartin,

That way lies madness. Since the world is corrupted, what can exist in it that does not have the potential to entice in some fashion? From the Christian perspective the problem isn't so much the things around us (including Heroscape), but our response to those things. It seems to me that Christians should follow Christ's example of spending time with non-Christians engaging in normal activities. Playing games is one of those normal activities.

~Aldin, who has actually thought a lot about this type of stuff

[clancampbell]

I personally think it's silly to avoid playing with "scary" or "demonic" figures.

They are just that, figures, and will not corrupt anyone that is mentally stable to any degree. They will not cause someone to start worshipping the devil, practice evil, or any standard silliness.

I agree. Playing HS or any other game does not "allow the devil in". You can still be a good christian, or what have you, and play HS.

HS does not stop me from attending church on sunday, nor has it given me any reason to reject the bible or the teachings of God.
HS is a game, its not a way of life.

Where's Rev?

[Revdyer]

Where's Rev?
I'm here. My position has been stated before and hasn't changed.

I do like Aldin's reminder that in some sense all the world is fallen, and it is our relationship to "things" that is at issue and not the things themselves. We live in the tension between a divinely created world of great beauty and power and a fallen world of moral danger; but the tension lies not in the world itself, but within ourselves.

I Timothy 4:4 sums up my attitude toward HeroScape (although God did not directly create HeroScape, God did create the people who did make the game).

[drimas]

I had to check to make sure it wasn't April 1st.

[jaamartin]

I agree, I think that I have turned out to be a strong Christian even though I play these games.

The arguement I posted above is one that I have difficulty answering/debating well.

Any advice on the best way to discuss it is greatly welcomed!

[jaamartin]

That way lies madness.


:lol: That is what I think!


I'm here. My position has been stated before and hasn't changed.

I do like Aldin's reminder that in some sense all the world is fallen, and it is our relationship to "things" that is at issue and not the things themselves. We live in the tension between a divinely created world of great beauty and power and a fallen world of moral danger; but the tension lies not in the world itself, but within ourselves.

I Timothy 4:4 sums up my attitude toward HeroScape (although God did not directly create HeroScape, God did create the people who did make the game).

Thanks everyone!

Rev, I will research more from 1 Timothy 4:4, and supporting verses to gather a lot of "fuel" for the ensuing debate that I know will occur. I doubt that my family will be receptive of it spouting that I have already become corrupt at the great deceiver's lies, and that I will not have the ability to see through those lies since I have brought them into my life voluntarily.

Jason

[Einar Gen.]

I don't see anything wrong with it. my brother and I have both pkayed with units like the vampires, orcs, and marro, and it hasn't corrupted us in any way.(Besides making an excessive vampire freak.) My family and I are church going christians, and don't believe that this corrupts in any way.
Look at it this way: J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote Lord of the Rings, and C.S. Lewis who wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, have both been said to have put elements of their faith into their stories, both of them being christian. Witches and evil mytholigical monsters are a reccuring theme in Lewis' writings, and Tolkiens villains are even more mature, including sorcerers and demonic entities. Does this make them agents of evil forces? Don't know about you, but I don't think so.

[Germund]

In the book A Landscape with Dragons, the author tells the story of his children suffering from nightmares about monsters, etc. He and his wife were puzzled, because as "good Christians" they had kept thier children away from scarey images. I won't draw out his whole line of thought, but what he discovered and argued in his book, is that we need some of these scarey images and the stories of good versus evil, because they do a lot to teach us about how to psychologically struggle with good and evil. The author recounts how after he introduced his children to fairey stories, etc. the nightmares stopped. The kids learned how to deal with their fears.

Fairy tales, and by extension RPGs and games such as Heroscape can serve the same purpose. They can give a physical and mental outlet to the fears within us. A wise parent can make good use of any situation to teach. Children are not as gullible as we adults think they are, they know the difference between reality and fantasy.

On the other hand, if you do have issues with it stop playing. Better to find a passtime that doesn't disrupt your consciense, (and your relationship with God) than to do something you are uncomfortable. However, if it bothers one person that doesn't make it evil for all. I forget the reference, but St. Paul deals with this in 1 Corinthians regarding eating meat sacrificed to idols.

[Revdyer]

Rev, I will research more from 1 Timothy 4:4, and supporting verses to gather a lot of "fuel" for the ensuing debate that I know will occur. I doubt that my family will be receptive of it spouting that I have already become corrupt at the great deceiver's lies, and that I will not have the ability to see through those lies since I have brought them into my life voluntarily.

Jason
I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are "of the devil."

As a kid, my best friend had to say he was going out to play "trucks" with our small wheeled toys, since if he said "cars" someone might hear it as "cards" which were strictly forbidden.

Sometimes good people can be really goofy.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are "of the devil."
Sometimes good people can be really goofy. Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

[mad_wookiee]

It seems to me that more often than not these arguments are based on the appearance of a thing and not its nature or effects - which is odd, considering that there are no inspired illustrations.

[EyeOfSauron]

We are Christians and have Christian friends that would be shocked to see some of the figures in Heroscape. Our solution is to just not expose them to it. We don't talk about it or glorify it in front of these friends.

Romans 14 helps a lot here:

v 1-2 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

v 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. The "weaker brother" in this case is the person who thinks a plastic miniature will corrupt their child. This is a "doubtful thing" (ie, no clear doctrine) Don't debate with fellow Christians whether Heroscape is appropriate or not...just be convinced in your own mind whether it is acceptable for your family.

v 14-15 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.In other words, my personal liberty of feeling that my kids can play Heroscape shouldn't come before my relationship with my friends. I choose to suspend my liberty in order to not "stumble them" by exposing them to it.

[J4Jandar]

In the book A Landscape with Dragons, the author tells the story of his children suffering from nightmares about monsters, etc. He and his wife were puzzled, because as "good Christians" they had kept thier children away from scarey images. I won't draw out his whole line of thought, but what he discovered and argued in his book, is that we need some of these scarey images and the stories of good versus evil, because they do a lot to teach us about how to psychologically struggle with good and evil. The author recounts how after he introduced his children to fairey stories, etc. the nightmares stopped. The kids learned how to deal with their fears.

Fairy tales, and by extension RPGs and games such as Heroscape can serve the same purpose. They can give a physical and mental outlet to the fears within us. A wise parent can make good use of any situation to teach. Children are not as gullible as we adults think they are, they know the difference between reality and fantasy.

On the other hand, if you do have issues with it stop playing. Better to find a passtime that doesn't disrupt your consciense, (and your relationship with God) than to do something you are uncomfortable. However, if it bothers one person that doesn't make it evil for all. I forget the reference, but St. Paul deals with this in 1 Corinthians regarding eating meat sacrificed to idols.

I think this is a great explanation. Keeping one sheltered from the world only makes them ignorant to the goings on. People are going to be who they were meant to good or bad. Providing the role model for them to follow will put them on the path. When they come of age the choice to follow that path will be theirs.

My plan is to hide nothing from my children but to line out right and wrong. I feel that if they know of everything then when something morally grey or wrong crops up they will be able to say that their parents told them of this and will hopefully make the right decision.

[jschild]

We are Christians and have Christian friends that would be shocked to see some of the figures in Heroscape. Our solution is to just not expose them to it. We don't talk about it or glorify it in front of these friends.

Romans 14 helps a lot here:

v 1-2 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

v 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. The "weaker brother" in this case is the person who thinks a plastic miniature will corrupt their child. This is a "doubtful thing" (ie, no clear doctrine) Don't debate with fellow Christians whether Heroscape is appropriate or not...just be convinced in your own mind whether it is acceptable for your family.

v 14-15 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.In other words, my personal liberty of feeling that my kids can play Heroscape shouldn't come before my relationship with my friends. I choose to suspend my liberty in order to not "stumble them" by exposing them to it.

You actually hide the fact that you play heroscape from them? This just boggles the mind, because if they cannot accept the fact that you play the game, they must not be very good friends. Now, if you were trying to push it on them or their kids, that'd be one thing, but are people really so terrified and scared of a simple board game they would react that badly?

I think some people need to get a clearer grip on reality because this isn't sweating the small stuff, it's freaking out over the small stuff and there isn't a thing in the bible against playing a game like that. It's not the image of something that is frightning, but the person's reaction to it that can be.

[funnymarx]

Romans 14 helps a lot here:



Agreed, especially since Paul was writing about eating food that was actually, you know, sacrificed at idols of pagan gods. Whatever concepts heroscape may or may not borrow from pagan thought, it's far from being an actual act of worship towards a pagan deity.


One would hope that in playing heroscape (or any game) with children, one could help inculcate good fruit such as peace, patience, self-control, and even love through good sportsmanship, camraderie, and shared enjoyment. If on the other hand, your heroscape session ends with tears, accusations, yelling, sulking, cheating or other such behavior, then perhaps at that point it's time to abandon the game.

[Lord Pyre]

Well, I've always argued this way:


It's fiction. You are not actually killing people. You are not actually leading armies.

Same with reading books; if you read fiction, why would this be any different?

You just have to make sure that it doesn't take over your life. If you start to believe it's real, and try to get Utgar to summon you to Valhalla, then you have a problem.

If you play a board game, you don't.

[Toad Rocket]

Well, this is a very interesting topic and a hot button for a lot of people.

I think in today's world there is ALOT of immoral and very suggestive things that bombard people every day with demoralizing/evil things. Just watch TV, commercials and mainstream sitcoms are pretty darn bad these days. I remember when the show Simpson first came on the air and there was an uproar about how bad it was. Now some 15+ years later Family Guy comes out (just using as one example) and it is WAY worse than simpsons ever was. Yet, I know many Christians who watch all the time (I dont because I have younger children and simply cannot let them watch that show).

Anyway, I think what I am trying to say is that in way there is a sliding scale of what is and what is not acceptable to the individual. Forgive me that my memory on scripture isnt as good as it was, but the Apostle Paul talks in his letters about how some things are acceptable, but may not be beneficial. Or how if the conscious of one individual allows him to do something, but another does not that can be okay also. (This is taken in context of perphery issues like eating meat on certain days, not on core issues like murder etc).

So then in my opinion Heroscape is a perphery issue. Some may find it too extreme, others may not. For myself I am ok with where it is right now. IF in heroscape had say satanic pentgrams all over it, or something that extreme then it would be too extreme for me.

[skyknight]

I am Catholic...there are many things that my group has done over the centuries that I would consider unsavory, all in all we are good people though. Anyways onto my story...a few years ago the Southern Baptists were in arms over Harry Potter, my wife's realtions being some of them. Harry was going to turn all of our children into young magicians and then convert them into Satanists...parents beware. This irratated me to no end but I was not sure how to defend my position wtih some of my strong Catholic friends. And then it happened....

My Pope walked out and spoke, he told the world that Harry Potter is about magic but it is also about good vs. evil and we as a civilization must never forget that both good and evil exist. Furthermore he claimed that Harry embodied that goodness and that it was Holy to grow up wanting to fight back the darkness. I was very proud of my religous leader that day. He saw beyond the details of the story and to the true center of the whole debate...good exists, evil exists...learning about this is not a sin and ultimately it teaches us how to be better people.

So I say the same for Scape, there are very clear lines of good and evil with which to defend your position. Teach your kids to love the good figs, but also play the bad figs. There is a lesson learned when the bad guys win too...sometimes bad things happen to good people...unfortunate but that is the way it is.

I have played all sorts of fantasy games throughout my life since I can remember..and I will impart a secret to you about how it has affected me that I have never told anyone. When I die the one thing I would ask the Lord is how do I serve on the battlelines between Heaven and Hell. To me this would be the ultimate reward, to serve in the Lord's army as the great ArchAngels have done. I know it is an odd thing honestly but I have carried the rifle for mankind...how glorious would it be to carry spear and shield for the Father. I know its kinda cooky....but it is a daydream I have had for a long time... and it is a powerful emotion for me to think I could stand against true evil in the name of the Lord.

[EyeOfSauron]

You actually hide the fact that you play heroscape from them? This just boggles the mind, because if they cannot accept the fact that you play the game, they must not be very good friends.

I am not "hiding" it from them. I just don't make a big deal about it. I tell my kids that they are sensitive to it so not to bring it up. There's plenty of other games we can play with them.

If they ask however, I will let them know what it is and answer any questions they have about it...

[Revdyer]

[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are "of the devil."
Sometimes good people can be really goofy. Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?Sadly, the KJV translators were not up on the Hebrew word for wild ox or perhaps rhinoceros. <sigh>

[Cthulhu1979]

Given the arguement presented in the initial post, there is no room for debate. Heroscape, and everything else that deviates from community approved activities, is evil and separating you from God. It seems like the choice you are given is to conform to the standard set before you, or you are a sinner. That is what it seems like from my position.

I can see why you are wondering if you are having a conflict of faith, as there is no "right" course of action for you to take.

In my opinion, and it is solely my opinion, as long as you respect your fellow humans and leave your heart open, you are doing the right thing.

~Cthulhu1979

[Sarpedon]

For what it's worth, I've been told by "believers" many times that I'll probably go to hell when I kick the bucket. If there is a hell, then I'll have plenty of company. Just think, most of the interesting people from history will have wound up there. I and they will be punished for eternity for having "sinned" a few seconds here on Earth against an almighty god who knew we were going to be that way (eternally) long before he created us. What happened to the punishment fitting the crime???

Well, if I'm going to be hanged for a sheep, I might as well be hanged for a horse! I'll keep doing my best to be my best and forget about the blessed.

P.S. I wonder if competitive players are forced to play Heroscape with casual players in hell for ever. Now THAT is a scary thought!

[Taeblewalker]

[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are &quot;of the devil.&quot;
Sometimes good people can be really goofy. Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?Sadly, the KJV translators were not up on the Hebrew word for wild ox or perhaps rhinoceros. <sigh>

Or was it Aurochs?

[Lord Pyre]

Given the arguement presented in the initial post, there is no room for debate. Heroscape, and everything else that deviates from community approved activities, is evil and separating you from God. It seems like the choice you are given is to conform to the standard set before you, or you are a sinner. That is what it seems like from my position.

I can see why you are wondering if you are having a conflict of faith, as there is no "right" course of action for you to take.

In my opinion, and it is solely my opinion, as long as you respect your fellow humans and leave your heart open, you are doing the right thing.

~Cthulhu1979

I don't think a guy with Cthulhu in his name should be giving out religious advice. ;)

[Taeblewalker]

I don't think a guy with Cthulhu in his name should be giving out religious advice. ;)

But his stars are aligned in the right place. Or something like that.

[Agent Minivann]

...a few years ago the Southern Baptists were in arms over Harry Potter, my wife's realtions being some of them. Harry was going to turn all of our children into young magicians and then convert them into Satanists...
Funny, I'm not crazy about Harry Potter, but it has a lot more to do with how much he seems to lie when it's convenient.

[CheddarLimbo]

I still don't understand what the first post has to do with Snagglepuss... :?:

[Germund]

I wonder if the people who make a big deal about "demonic" figures are missing the boat. If I were to level a criticism at Heroscape, or the entire gaming industry for that matter, I would point to the fact that so many people spend money on the games and neglect the poor and homeless. To me that is the greater sin, and one I am extremely guilty of. It seems to me that there is much more ink spent in Scripture on how we care for the poor than most other things that modern Western Christians spend their time stressing out over. (See Matt. 25.31ff., or almost any part of the Minor Prophets for example)

When I think of the Mother Theresa's of this world, I am ashamed of the way I waste what God has loaned me. (Then I go out and buy something to make me feel better.) I really think that it is not the so called "demonic images" in our culture that we have to fear; the materialistic nature of our culture is a far greater enemy and seducer of our souls.

[Taeblewalker]

I still don't understand what the first post has to do with Snagglepuss... :?:

He's next year's promo. 8)


On another note, in light of this thread, I find it interesting how many tournaments are held in church basements. It would seem that many religious folk don't seem to mind Heroscape.

[Grungebob]

I have played all sorts of fantasy games throughout my life since I can remember..and I will impart a secret to you about how it has affected me that I have never told anyone. When I die the one thing I would ask the Lord is how do I serve on the battlelines between Heaven and Hell. To me this would be the ultimate reward, to serve in the Lord's army as the great ArchAngels have done. I know it is an odd thing honestly but I have carried the rifle for mankind...how glorious would it be to carry spear and shield for the Father. I know its kinda cooky....but it is a daydream I have had for a long time... and it is a powerful emotion for me to think I could stand against true evil in the name of the Lord.Yah dude! That's weird.:unsure:

[jbbnbsmith]

P.S. I wonder if competitive players are forced to play Heroscape with casual players in hell for ever. Now THAT is a scary thought!
No, Hell is exactly the opposite.

To the topic, there are more serious issues for me that I consider from time to time.

Issues like stewardship; am I spending too much money on a game, versus spending it on something that would be more beneficial to God's Kingdom or to others in need.

Issues like time management; do I spend too much time reading posts on this site, or playing games, when there are other more pressings things that require my attention.

These are questions I ask myself in many areas of my life, not just Heroscape. All in all, I feel fairly confident that my priorities are in order, but taking personal inventory from time to time, especially with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, certainly doesn't hurt.

But for me, personally, playing with Zombies, Minions, and Taelord has no more power to make me a Satan worshipper than playing the Germans in Memoir '44 could make me become a Nazi.

There is enough genuine evil, ugliness, wickedness, suffering, and injustice in the world that needs to be addressed without wasting our time battling Sponge Bob, Care Bears, Smurfs, or even Heroscape.

[Sarpedon]

[quote=Sarpedon;831281]P.S. I wonder if competitive players are forced to play Heroscape with casual players in hell for ever. Now THAT is a scary thought!
No, Hell is exactly the opposite.

LOL, Touche!!! Um...but, how would you know?

[Taeblewalker]

I have played all sorts of fantasy games throughout my life since I can remember..and I will impart a secret to you about how it has affected me that I have never told anyone. When I die the one thing I would ask the Lord is how do I serve on the battlelines between Heaven and Hell. To me this would be the ultimate reward, to serve in the Lord's army as the great ArchAngels have done. I know it is an odd thing honestly but I have carried the rifle for mankind...how glorious would it be to carry spear and shield for the Father. I know its kinda cooky....but it is a daydream I have had for a long time... and it is a powerful emotion for me to think I could stand against true evil in the name of the Lord.Yah dude! That's weird.:unsure:

Funny, my view of Heaven generally involves...oh, forget it. Kathy'll wind up reading this. ;)

[jbbnbsmith]

P.S. I wonder if competitive players are forced to play Heroscape with casual players in hell for ever. Now THAT is a scary thought!
No, Hell is exactly the opposite.

LOL, Touche!!! Um...but, how would you know?
I'm a pastor. I studied this in Systematic Theology.

Plus I have had the practical experience of playing what was to be a fun game against someone who played too slowly, over analyzed everything, would not carry on a conversation during the game, and got angry every time a roll went against him. Trust me, that's Hell.

[jaamartin]

[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are &quot;of the devil.&quot;
Sometimes good people can be really goofy. Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?Sadly, the KJV translators were not up on the Hebrew word for wild ox or perhaps rhinoceros. <sigh>

Job 39:9 {JST}

9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by they crib?

{Jubilee}
9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee or abide by thy crib?

{AKJV}
9Will the unicorn be willing to serve you, or abide by your crib?

The JST {James Smith Translation}, Jubilee, and the AKJV {American King James} must have used the same translators...


I still don't understand what the first post has to do with Snagglepuss... :?:

Warning: extreme SNL comedy to follow, if easily offended by mainstream comedy please do not follow the link:

I was using him as an example of cartoons conditioning impressionable minds to accept things that are not in line with religious view points (http://www.hulu.com/watch/44523/saturday-night-live-update-snagglepuss). That is all.

Jason

[Jandarforever]

I don't have too much to add, but I do want to say that I'm glad to be reading all this great advice. My family has several friends who have condemned the game for the "evil" and "fantasy" characters. The last time I got lectured about the game from one of these friends, I was basically told that I should not have ONE SINGLE TRACE of demonic, fantasy, or even science fiction in my life because it all clashes with what is written in the Bible. This guy even went so far as to say that not only should I not have the game, but I should not even buy other Hasbro products that would help support the game. :wtf: Obviously I'm not doing that, but the whole situation raised some questions in my mind. I know Heroscape won't make anyone get into sorcery or witchcraft, but could it be a stepping stone to things that are bad because it "numbs" your mind to it? I think that is the light our friend was looking at Heroscape because his nephew turned rebellious and gothic after he had gotten into drawing fantasy comics. So yeah, I'm keeping 'Scape but I do feel a little uncomfortable with figures like Cyprien, Ke-Mo-Shi, and even the good figures like the elven wizards and Kelda. Keep the good advice coming, because I can really put it to good use.

[jbbnbsmith]

[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are &quot;of the devil.&quot;
Sometimes good people can be really goofy. Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?Sadly, the KJV translators were not up on the Hebrew word for wild ox or perhaps rhinoceros. <sigh>

Job 39:9 {JST}

9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by they crib?

{Jubilee}
9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee or abide by thy crib?

{AKJV}
9Will the unicorn be willing to serve you, or abide by your crib?

The JST {James Smith Translation}, Jubilee, and the AKJV {American King James} must have used the same translators...



The Joseph (not James) Smith Translation is basically a word for word copy of the King James. The Jubilee Bible is an African American edition of the King James, by way of a spanish translation. And the AKJV stands for Authorized King James Version, which is just another version of the 1611 translation known as the King James Version. It is common to refer to the King James as simply The Authorized Version. So yes, they do all have the same translators.

[Grungebob]

Yah, You better watch out. Games like these have been corrupting kids for years. Quit now while you have a chance.
http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/chick3_1092709317_640w.gif

[jaamartin]

The Joseph (not James) Smith Translation is basically a word for word copy of the King James. The Jubilee Bible is an African American edition of the King James, by way of a spanish translation. And the AKJV stands for Authorized King James Version, which is just another version of the 1611 translation known as the King James Version. It is common to refer to the King James as simply The Authorized Version. So yes, they do all have the same translators.


Guess my attempt at humor was not really humor but fact! wow! :o

[mad_wookiee]

Yah, You better watch out. Games like these have been corrupting kids for years. Quit now while you have a chance.
http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/chick3_1092709317_640w.gif

Jack Chick FTW!

[jbbnbsmith]

I don't have too much to add, but I do want to say that I'm glad to be reading all this great advice. My family has several friends who have condemned the game for the "evil" and "fantasy" characters. The last time I got lectured about the game from one of these friends, I was basically told that I should not have ONE SINGLE TRACE of demonic, fantasy, or even science fiction in my life because it all clashes with what is written in the Bible. This guy even went so far as to say that not only should I not have the game, but I should not even buy other Hasbro products that would help support the game. :wtf: Obviously I'm not doing that, but the whole situation raised some questions in my mind. I know Heroscape won't make anyone get into sorcery or witchcraft, but could it be a stepping stone to things that are bad because it "numbs" your mind to it? I think that is the light our friend was looking at Heroscape because his nephew turned rebellious and gothic after he had gotten into drawing fantasy comics. So yeah, I'm keeping 'Scape but I do feel a little uncomfortable with figures like Cyprien, Ke-Mo-Shi, and even the good figures like the elven wizards and Kelda. Keep the good advice coming, because I can really put it to good use.
I assume that the people in question do not own a car, because owning a car means they are buying gasoline, and a good percentage of gasoline comes from Arab countries, and most Arab countries are Muslim. Therefore by driving a car they are supporting a religion that teaches false doctrines, and all false doctrines are of the Devil.

[Sarpedon]

P.S. I wonder if competitive players are forced to play Heroscape with casual players in hell for ever. Now THAT is a scary thought!
No, Hell is exactly the opposite.

LOL, Touche!!! Um...but, how would you know?
I'm a pastor. I studied this in Systematic Theology.

Plus I have had the practical experience of playing what was to be a fun game against someone who played too slowly, over analyzed everything, would not carry on a conversation during the game, and got angry every time a roll went against him. Trust me, that's Hell.

I'm sorry to hear that you played against such a person. That's hell, but I'm sure he wasn't a competitive player. Firstly, because, if he was and you're not, he would not have had to think long to defeat you. Secondly, if he realized that you were not competitive and he truly was, he wouldn't have played against you.

Now, if you had played him at a tournament (which I do not believe was the case) then that would make you a competitive player yourself (which I trust you are not). I think you simply played against a frustrated dullard who somehow managed to make you believe he was a (truly) competitive player.One more thing, what is fun for you may not be fun for others. I was just joking about the Heroscape/Hell thing. I believe/hope you were too.

Muslims teach false doctrines? Ok, I'll bow out now.

[Sarpedon]

Sorry for this double post.

[Jandarforever]

I don't have too much to add, but I do want to say that I'm glad to be reading all this great advice. My family has several friends who have condemned the game for the "evil" and "fantasy" characters. The last time I got lectured about the game from one of these friends, I was basically told that I should not have ONE SINGLE TRACE of demonic, fantasy, or even science fiction in my life because it all clashes with what is written in the Bible. This guy even went so far as to say that not only should I not have the game, but I should not even buy other Hasbro products that would help support the game. :wtf: Obviously I'm not doing that, but the whole situation raised some questions in my mind. I know Heroscape won't make anyone get into sorcery or witchcraft, but could it be a stepping stone to things that are bad because it "numbs" your mind to it? I think that is the light our friend was looking at Heroscape because his nephew turned rebellious and gothic after he had gotten into drawing fantasy comics. So yeah, I'm keeping 'Scape but I do feel a little uncomfortable with figures like Cyprien, Ke-Mo-Shi, and even the good figures like the elven wizards and Kelda. Keep the good advice coming, because I can really put it to good use.
I assume that the people in question do not own a car, because owning a car means they are buying gasoline, and a good percentage of gasoline comes from Arab countries, and most Arab countries are Muslim. Therefore by driving a car they are supporting a religion that teaches false doctrines, and all false doctrines are of the Devil.
That's exactly what I was thinking (and yes, he does own a car). If people are going to be so gung ho on not getting involved or supporting one trace of something evil, then they might as well burn everything they own and move to the mountains where they can hunt, fish, and forage for food and live naked in a poorly constructed lean-to.

[jaamartin]

Muslims teach false doctrines? Ok, I'll bow out now.


I guess that this falls under the "don't get mad when your topic takes on a life of it's own" rule which I forget which thread I read it on... Will need to research it when I am more awake.

But... yes, I think that is going farther than my original post, but does highlight the extreme view-point that some in religion take when viewing things that differ from their own belief system.

Jason

[Taeblewalker]

Hmm...since I'm an unbeliever, I guess they're all "false doctrines". ;)

But whatever works for anyone is ok by me.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Chill bro, it's just a game. I also don't see how Marro or Zombies are any more evil than Templars. They both kill people.

I personally have a conflict with whether or not to continue playing HS due to my family. Yes... Southern Baptist.... Yes... The game is evil because it has demonic forces at work... read that as it is written.. not images.. not themes.. but AT WORK....

Who cares what your family thinks. All that should matter is what you decide.

[Aldin]

I also don't see how Marro or Zombies are any more evil than Templars. They both kill people.

So the people who put John Wayne Gacy to death were morally equivalent to him? American soldiers are morally equivalent to the Muslim terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Center? A police officer firing in self-defense is morally equivalent to the crook that's shooting at him in cold blood?

~Aldin, off track, but *sheesh*

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

I also don't see how Marro or Zombies are any more evil than Templars. They both kill people.

So the people who put John Wayne Gacy to death were morally equivalent to him? American soldiers are morally equivalent to the Muslim terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Center? A police officer firing in self-defense is morally equivalent to the crook that's shooting at him in cold blood?

~Aldin, off track, but *sheesh*

No, I think a Templar who kills a Marro (and vise versa) for no reason other than "He's in the opponent's army", is evil. "Kill 'em all for no reason" seems to be how most Heroscape games are played.

~ParaGoomba Slayer, who likes how Aldin ends his posts.

[Drumline3469]

I also don't see how Marro or Zombies are any more evil than Templars. They both kill people.

So the people who put John Wayne Gacy to death were morally equivalent to him? American soldiers are morally equivalent to the Muslim terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Center? A police officer firing in self-defense is morally equivalent to the crook that's shooting at him in cold blood?

~Aldin, off track, but *sheesh*


We're always told to be good, but we're never told that morality is subjective. While I would agree that Gacy was a jacked up dude and probably deserved the death sentence, his version of morality may have been different from society (and probably was). The Templars and Crusaders fought a holy war for their religion, much like the war that the radical Islamics fight today. No one can say "You are morally wrong" because each man must decide for himself his own set of morals. While there is a basic outline for morals that would be conductive to a productive society, you cannot continue to enforce this morality on each and every individual in the world, or they would cease to be individuals.

On the topic of the thread title, I consider myself to be a fairly 'religious' person. I use that word to mean I am a person who desires a deep relationship with God but put more weight into my relationship with Him than I do my strict, mindless adherence to doctrine. That being said, I find absolutely nothing biblically incorrect about Heroscape. God never commanded anyone to remains strictly peaceful and to never kill, as we see him send countless armies to slaughter their enemies in the Old Testament. War is a part of life and even God admits that. Taelord and the Minions may closely resemble Satan and his demons, but God acknowledges their existence as well.

What it boils down to, though, is your heart. If you field an army of Minions and Taelord for the purpose of role-playing Satan overthrowing God, then yes, there is something inherently non-biblical about that. If you are fielding them to merely have a good time since they're pretty solid units, then I see nothing wrong with that.

To tie it all together, you cannot lable one action as 'bad' or one action as 'good.' It all depends on the heart of the performer.

[seba]

I'm Lefebvrist, so Catholic. I think that there is a very big crisis in the Church. Obviously HS isn't very in line with Catholic Church, for gods generals, kiryes... But it is very amusing and more Catholic than oder games (Warhammer 40k and other). Today, amusing, is very hard find a Catholic game:roll:

[Fencerjared]

I also don't see how Marro or Zombies are any more evil than Templars. They both kill people.

So the people who put John Wayne Gacy to death were morally equivalent to him? American soldiers are morally equivalent to the Muslim terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Center? A police officer firing in self-defense is morally equivalent to the crook that's shooting at him in cold blood?

~Aldin, off track, but *sheesh*
The Knights Templar are popularly connected with the Crusades, since that's where they got their start. And there is very little honorable or noble about the Crusades from a modern viewpoint. As a Jew (observant), I feel that if the Christian Roman Empire under the Byzantines hadn't conquered/occupied Israel in the first place, the Crusades never would have happened (although the Muslims still would have controlled the land), and probably the Muslims and Jews wouldn't even be at odds today. If the Crusades had never happened, Jews and Muslims, and even Christians, wouldn't have died in large numbers. And then there's the matter of the 4th Crusade (which the Templars weren't even involved in, although most people might not know that), which culminated with Christians killing Christians. Like I said, even though the Templars weren't involved in that particular Crusade, they are popularly connected with the Crusades in general. Not to mention the view of them as greedy land-owning lords who functioned as a state within a state. So, I can easily see how someone would view them as no better than zombies (blindly doing what they are told/as their nature dictates) and Marro (aliens bent on world domination through Borg-like assimilation), and I would personally agree.

[skyknight]

I have played all sorts of fantasy games throughout my life since I can remember..and I will impart a secret to you about how it has affected me that I have never told anyone. When I die the one thing I would ask the Lord is how do I serve on the battlelines between Heaven and Hell. To me this would be the ultimate reward, to serve in the Lord's army as the great ArchAngels have done. I know it is an odd thing honestly but I have carried the rifle for mankind...how glorious would it be to carry spear and shield for the Father. I know its kinda cooky....but it is a daydream I have had for a long time... and it is a powerful emotion for me to think I could stand against true evil in the name of the Lord.Yah dude! That's weird.:unsure:
Shut up you:lol:...

I know it is an odd thing, and let me say it was more of a childhood fantasy then anything else. In D&D I used to always play the Paladin or Cavalier, when I went into the service I fully believed in a code of honor and still do, I believe this quote whole heartedly

"A coward dies a thousand dies, the brave die but once."?

So with that said, I still think about what it must be like to be an Arch-Angel, to be the eternal soldier in the Father's army. When I was in the service I had immense pride at what I was doing...living the Warriors code fit me well. These days I long to be back in, but with 5 kids who also depend on me I had to make some sacrifices...and my true love, soldiering, was one of them. So to me there could be no greater honor but than to serve out eternity as one of the Lord's warriors....I feel like I was built for that line of work...I loved it and I was good at it....one would wonder if God cultivates our skills on Earth for a higher purpose or if it is truly all for naught. I like to think I was made this way for a reason.

But back to the original point....these ideas of chivalry, good vs. evil, ultimate sacrifice, pride....they did not come from being sheltered from all things harmful as a child. Quite the opposite...since I was a little kid watching tv, reading books, and playing games I began to learn the concept of these things and part of these things carried with me into adulthood. It makes me wonder actually with me being somewhat aggressive how would I have turned out if my parents had not given me a moral compass with which to follow that was backed up by stories like the Hobbit and a Wrinkle in Time.

If I had of been raised differently or perhaps never exposed to these concepts would I have turned out to be a good person??? I don't know....I march to a different drummer than a lot of folks and I found brotherhood through soldiering with some like minded fellows. I can't really answer the question of what would I have been like if my childhood had been different and I am happy it was not. All those experiences as a kid gave me a way to funnel that agression, through games, sports, and as a soldier. Even these days as I work my way up through the ranks of Sikorsky Aircraft, I am very nice to folks, but I am also exteremly aggressive. It serves me well in the business world just as it did in soldiering, but instead of physical force, this time it is a mental game but mind you, many of the players are just as cuthtroat as the foes you meet on a battlefield....they are just in a different medium is all. In corporate America the weak fall by the side while those who are always striving for more and shaping their own destiny tend to excel. I rely on my moral compass here as much as I did back in the service.

So that is my point...for being exposed to what many consider true evil I think I turned out pretty good. I know alot of kids who were raised under very strict religous rules and some of them are not doing so well in life. Coincidence???? I don't know. But as a parent i think my folks did a pretty good job so I am tryign to pass those same lessons on to my little ones....and you know what, I think they got the message or seemed to have so far.:)

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

So, I can easily see how someone would view them as no better than zombies (blindly doing what they are told/as their nature dictates) and Marro (aliens bent on world domination through Borg-like assimilation), and I would personally agree.

Well, I wasn't just calling the Templars evil, I'm calling all the units in Heroscape evil because they all kill each other for no reason.

[Fencerjared]

Not for no reason... You and I and everyone else tell them to. :p

[miantanomo]

"Demonic"?!?! Really? Here let me put this into perspective,
ITS A GAME!
Sheesh

Miantanomo

[StarofEarendil]

As a Jew (observant), I feel that if the Christian Roman Empire under the Byzantines hadn't conquered/occupied Israel in the first place, the Crusades never would have happened (although the Muslims still would have controlled the land), and probably the Muslims and Jews wouldn't even be at odds today.
Muslims and Jews wouldn't be at odds if the Crusades hadn't happened? Sorry, I've read quite a contradiction. (now if I could find the other one...)
9:5. Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun [unbelievers] wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat [the Islamic ritual prayers], and give Zakat [alms], then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[RobWeaver]

This conversation about the suitablility of gaming has been going on for a long time. Back in the late '80s it culminated in a time of "witch hunting" in which some of our Christian brothers and sister lumped all role-playing and miniature games together and denounced them as evil. I stopped historical gaming for a couple years because I got tired of explaining how it wasn't D&D, which was the focus of attention at the time. There's a good, but not perfect, discussion of the problem in "A Christian Response to D&D" which may be found at www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/2136_47e.htm
While I disagree with the final conclusion of the book (After a discussion of the positive features of rpgs, the author flatly declares that these games should be off-limits to Christians. Seemed a bit of a non-sequitur to me.), the author does us a service by laying out a theology of play which is healthy. Play facilitates problem solving, prepares people for real challenges, etc. That part is quite good. There's also a good discussion of gaming ethics in which some of the more gratuitous features of games are taken to task and asked to change. Heroscape is a game; it will not turn you against God. Playing Monopoly didn't turn you into a real estate tycoon, did it?

[ollie]

On another note, in light of this thread, I find it interesting how many tournaments are held in church basements. It would seem that many religious folk don't seem to mind Heroscape.

Yeah, that is odd. I've been inside a church building exactly four times in the five or so years I've lived in the US. Every single time was to play Heroscape. Does that make Heroscape the Christians' best available shot to save my soul?

To answer the original topic, I'd say anything that makes you consider these larger questions is probably a good thing. As many have said already in the thread it's your take on the issues that matters. The unexamined life and all that.

[jbbnbsmith]

[Muslims teach false doctrines? Ok, I'll bow out now.
You do realize that post was tongue-in-cheek, no?

But the statement should not be surprising. Obviously, if each faith believes that its version of God is the only true version, then all other doctrinal positions must be false.

[jbbnbsmith]

Yeah, that is odd. I've been inside a church building exactly four times in the five or so years I've lived in the US. Every single time was to play Heroscape. Does that make Heroscape the Christians' best available shot to save my soul?


You better believe it. I would guess about four more games in a church and you will be one of us. Don't resist, that would be pointless. :)

[ollie]

Yeah, that is odd. I've been inside a church building exactly four times in the five or so years I've lived in the US. Every single time was to play Heroscape. Does that make Heroscape the Christians' best available shot to save my soul?


You better believe it. I would guess about four more games in a church and you will be one of us. Don't resist, that would be pointless. :)

:lol:

Perhaps I use the Minions so much because I'm subconsciously scared of being converted and think they'll protect me. ;)

[jbbnbsmith]

So, I can easily see how someone would view them as no better than zombies (blindly doing what they are told/as their nature dictates) and Marro (aliens bent on world domination through Borg-like assimilation), and I would personally agree.

Well, I wasn't just calling the Templars evil, I'm calling all the units in Heroscape evil because they all kill each other for no reason.
The forces of good are fighting to keep the power of the wellsprings from the forces of evil.

[Harlax]

As a Jew (observant), I feel that if the Christian Roman Empire under the Byzantines hadn't conquered/occupied Israel in the first place, the Crusades never would have happened (although the Muslims still would have controlled the land), and probably the Muslims and Jews wouldn't even be at odds today.

Vespasian and Titus would be rather surprised to hear themselves described as Christian. And the client Kings who held the area for the Romans before that time often had only the thinest of layers of Judaism. Herod springs to mind.

The Byzantine era came hundreds of years later.

The Muslims controlled the land through conquest from the Byzantines. While I agree the conduct of the crusaders was reprehensible, lets not pretend that they are the only party with blood on their hands.

[Grungebob]

While I agree the conduct of the crusaders was reprehensible, lets not pretend that they are the only party with blood on their hands.I would love it if everyone realized that there was no clear cut good guy during the crusades. Atrocities abounded. Christians raped, pillaged and cannibalized. Muslims also raped pillaged (not sure about cannibalism). It surprises me to this day that there are folks who believe that the Christians were on a spiritual journey with good intentions during the crusades. I am also surprised at the stilted way that some movies portray the innocent and victimised Muslims..

[Sarpedon]

I suspected/hoped it was and I'm glad to see I was right, but, just in case I left it open to interpretation. The hint was the "bow" (which is done 5 times a day in that particular faith). Anyhow that's way off-topic.

[Germund]

[quote=Harlax;831579] It surprises me to this day that there are folks who believe that the Christians were on a spiritual journey with good intentions during the crusades.

I cringe when I see churches use imagery of the "knight in shining armor" to portray the "soldier for Christ". I wonder how many Moslems, Jews, and other people from minority religions still harbour feelings of hurt because of the Crusades. A number of years ago I was involved with a Christian denomination that had the name of Crusaders for its Boys and girls club. I was very impressed with them when they changed the name out of respect for the Moslems. (FWIW, they went with the name "Boys and Girls Club - not very inspiring or original, but better than before.) I often wonder what Moslem people think when churches hold an "evangelistic crusade" (I've been out of the Evangelical tradition for some time, hopefully that term is passe now.)

It seems the discussion has broadened from just Heroscape to many other areas of life, and the whole concept of good and evil. I read this quote by Alexander Solzhenitsyn many years ago, and it has stuck with me ever since:

“If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

[J4Jandar]

Yeah, that is odd. I've been inside a church building exactly four times in the five or so years I've lived in the US. Every single time was to play Heroscape. Does that make Heroscape the Christians' best available shot to save my soul?


You better believe it. I would guess about four more games in a church and you will be one of us. Don't resist, that would be pointless. :)

I thought it was "Resistance is futile."? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a1/Picard_as_Locutus.jpg/180px-Picard_as_Locutus.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Picard_as_Locutus.jpg)

[jaamartin]

It seems the discussion has broadened from just Heroscape to many other areas of life, and the whole concept of good and evil. I read this quote by Alexander Solzhenitsyn many years ago, and it has stuck with me ever since:


I agree, and am happy that it has stayed "healthy" and has not turned into a slug-fest. Another testament to the community here which is a tremendous relief. Finally a mature forum without the whiners... well, there will always be the odd man out right?
:p

As a note of completion for me, I wish to express my thanks to everyone who has posted suggestions and support here. While I know that I might not be able to sway the views of my family, the support here has proven to me that, while they are not necessarily wrong, niether am I.

Any ways... It always amazes me that people want to forget that a conflict ALWAYS has two sides. There are of course exceptions to this*1, but for the most part, one side is just as guilty as the other side when it comes to fighting.

[ollie]

I agree, and am happy that it has stayed "healthy" and has not turned into a slug-fest. Another testament to the community here which is a tremendous relief. Finally a mature forum without the whiners... well, there will always be the odd man out right?
:p

:wave:

Actually, while it's often me, I don't think it is this time. But then I enjoy a "slug-fest" and don't think it is either the opposite of mature or synonymous with whining.

And has anyone else noticed that no-one ever complains about the atheists' behaviour during the crusades? That makes us the superior group, I reckon. :p

[Harlax]

I agree, and am happy that it has stayed "healthy" and has not turned into a slug-fest. Another testament to the community here which is a tremendous relief. Finally a mature forum without the whiners... well, there will always be the odd man out right?
:p

:wave:

Actually, while it's often me, I don't think it is this time. But then I enjoy a "slug-fest" and don't think it is either the opposite of mature or synonymous with whining.

And has anyone else noticed that no-one ever complains about the atheists' behaviour during the crusades? That makes us the superior group, I reckon. :p

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...

No, you have your excesses as well.

[ollie]

I agree, and am happy that it has stayed "healthy" and has not turned into a slug-fest. Another testament to the community here which is a tremendous relief. Finally a mature forum without the whiners... well, there will always be the odd man out right?
:p

:wave:

Actually, while it's often me, I don't think it is this time. But then I enjoy a "slug-fest" and don't think it is either the opposite of mature or synonymous with whining.

And has anyone else noticed that no-one ever complains about the atheists' behaviour during the crusades? That makes us the superior group, I reckon. :p

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...

No, you have your excesses as well.

Stalin was in the crusades? :shock:

My comment was totally tongue-in-cheek, sorry if that wasn't clear. (I suppose the tongue-sticking-out emoticon might be about the worst by definition to indicate tongue-in-cheekness :?.)

[Harlax]

[quote=jaamartin;831731]
I agree, and am happy that it has stayed "healthy" and has not turned into a slug-fest. Another testament to the community here which is a tremendous relief. Finally a mature forum without the whiners... well, there will always be the odd man out right?
:p

:wave:

Actually, while it's often me, I don't think it is this time. But then I enjoy a "slug-fest" and don't think it is either the opposite of mature or synonymous with whining.

And has anyone else noticed that no-one ever complains about the atheists' behaviour during the crusades? That makes us the superior group, I reckon. :p

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...

No, you have your excesses as well.


Stalin was in the crusades? :shock:



Now there's an alternate history idea with possibilities... :shock:

Sorry if I took you too seriously there.

[ollie]

Stalin was in the crusades? :shock:



Now there's an alternate history idea with possibilities... :shock:

Sorry if I took you too seriously there.

No problem. Tone is really hard to convey on forums and this is, I think, why many of these types of discussion get more heated online than they do in real life.

Wouldn't it be great if there were a game that took figures from different time periods and pitched them into battle with one another? I'd totally buy that, we should get a game company to develop it. ;)

[jaamartin]

First we need to come up with some form of configurable terrain.. then get some people that are good at graphics.. then find some good card/characteristic/power creators...

Not to mention playtesting it and all of that...

But yeah.. let's do it!

oh wait...:confused:

[Agent Minivann]

Yeah, that is odd. I've been inside a church building exactly four times in the five or so years I've lived in the US. Every single time was to play Heroscape. Does that make Heroscape the Christians' best available shot to save my soul?


You better believe it. I would guess about four more games in a church and you will be one of us. Don't resist, that would be pointless. :)

I thought it was "Resistance is futile."? http://www.tdd.lt/%7Etract/new_site/kompiuteriai/pictures/misc/bill_borg.jpg
Fixed.

[RageAngel]

From a certain agnostic who became Christian and then even Catholic:

Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already.
Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.

As a Christian writer, I see Heroscape as being in the same category as fairy tales and imaginative play.... something we need more of, not less.

That being said, because we dislike the design of the Marro, minions, and very few other figures, so we don't use those figures, and I am in the process of finding proxies. It's merely an aesthetic thing with our young children.

I believe there are many things in this world that as Christians we need to separate ourselves from. We use hulu, and have no access to other TV. Of the last half-dozen movies my wife an I have watched, we had to turn off 3 of them for being too offensive. We do not pursue wealth; I have had to leave a few jobs due to moral issues that arose. I have turned down at job interviews because the interviewer found out about my beliefs.

And yet, I play Heroscape with my kids.

(If you didn't already know, the quote is from G.K. Chesterton, who is in part responsible for converting C.S. Lewis, who wrote about witches and curses, and demonic forces in books for children, and is a celebrated Christian writer)

[vdemman13]

There was a big debate around the time of Dungeons and Dragons if the game was leading to the Occult. And certainly it may have lead to the Occult for some; for others, it was an imaginative game to pass the time. Televison for that matter can lead you to the Occult or anything else. I tend to think, as a Christian, that certain things in life are neutral like alcohol, an occasional cigar, televsion, board-games, etc. As a neutral thing, it does not have evil properties in itself, but only from the desires of the heart is what can make it evil. Losing yourself in games, alcohol, etc is the point of contention, for what has mastered you has made you a slave to it. I can't agree that all games are neutral, like the Ouija Board that has lead people to think contating "Familiar Spirits" is fun and okay. These things are of the demonic realm and I would not walk away from this, but run. Furthermore, I do not think Heroscape promotes mediumship, seances, contacting the dead or anything of that sort. It is a battle game of strategy, and can be good for the analytical mind. Certainly some folks may be intrigued regarding the darker elements of this game as in the zombies, vampires, and demonic creatures, but is it the game that made them so or their desire to put themselves above God, knowing right from wrong, and then being engulfed by the game and the spirits of this age? We invite those unsavory beings in our lives by our works and lack of faith. Always put on the full armor of God, say a prayer and stand fast for the faith. We can always find excuses for our behavior via some inanimate thing, but in the end we are responsible for the choices we alone make via "free-will". Games can bring fellowship, so as someone else posted already, use it as an opportunity to share your faith and give a reason for the hope that you have.





regards

[vdemman13]

Glad this game is moving forward

[RageAngel]

I'm of the school that just about anything in moderation is ok, but anything in excess is evil.

[PlasmaScaper 2.0]

I am a Christian (kind-of Catholic, as I go to Chruch and partake in some rituals, but do not agree with some of the Church's teachings) and I play Grand Theft Auto, enjoy very vulgar music (The Lonely Island, Avenged Sevenfold, etc.), and so on. I do not believe any of these are innately evil, as they are not real. Shooting at pixelated heads with pixelated guns or listening to music with mention of drugs or guns in the lyrics is not evil, as it is not real. Now, going out on the streets shooting people is evil, as it is real. My point? Heroscape is not evil; heck, I bet Jesus's angels may even be playing a Knights vs. Marro game right now. Actions commited in the game are not real, and thus, not evil.

[Germund]

I don't remember if it was on this forum or a different RPG forum but I read once about a person who asked their local occult bookstore to stock D&D books as there was no game store in the area. The response was something to the effect of, "We don't approve of the game because real magic is trivialized in the game." I guess it doesn't matter which camp you go to, some will disapprove of gaming wherever you go.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are &quot;of the devil.&quot;
Sometimes good people can be really goofy. Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?Sadly, the KJV translators were not up on the Hebrew word for wild ox or perhaps rhinoceros. <sigh>

Job 39:9 {JST}

9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by they crib?

{Jubilee}
9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee or abide by thy crib?

{AKJV}
9Will the unicorn be willing to serve you, or abide by your crib?

The JST {James Smith Translation}, Jubilee, and the AKJV {American King James} must have used the same translators...



The Joseph (not James) Smith Translation is basically a word for word copy of the King James. The Jubilee Bible is an African American edition of the King James, by way of a spanish translation. And the AKJV stands for Authorized King James Version, which is just another version of the 1611 translation known as the King James Version. It is common to refer to the King James as simply The Authorized Version. So yes, they do all have the same translators.

Yeah, I tend to agree with the rhinoceros translation myself. But I just think it's pretty interesting and cool on how much (Greek) mythology is in the Bible - Satyrs, Chimera, Dragons, Leviathans, Behemoths, Unicorns, Tartarus, Lilith, Hades, etc.

But back on topic -
You guys hit the nail on the head, when you said if heropScape becomes more important than your family, job, etc it's evil. Other than that it's a game.

[Flavius Maximus]

Great to see there so many of us around!

THe reason I first started playing HS was not an interest in the occult, nor even morbid curiosity in the death of fantastical creatures. I was interested in HS because it challenged me to think strategically about ficticious things; something that calms me down and allows me to organize my thoughts afterwards. I am reminded of Romans 14:3 "The one who eats is not to regard with contept the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him." And then Romans 14:14 "I know and am convinced inthe Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean."
Basically, if you don't feel convicted of playing a game in which you command little aliens to shoot little minutemen and you enjoy it, play the game. Just don't pressure someone to play when they feel convicted of the game. The Lord created us each with our own convictions and strengths of faith. As for myself, Heroscape is a game, and a relaxing/challenging one at that. I am not mastered by it, I believe God gave me the opprotunity to play it because he loves me, and he knew that it would lead to me thinking more critically of my actions and analytically in general.

Thank you God for Heroscape!

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Thank you God for Heroscape!

I thought Craig Van Ness created the game.

[Flavius Maximus]

Well, God gave us the capacity to invent and think independently. Props to Craig for thinking of it, but God directed me to it. And God gave me the funds to play the game. He provided Craig with the funds to start the game, provided the raw materials to build the figures. . .

And no, I don't think Craig Van Ness is God.

[J4Jandar]

Well, God gave us the capacity to invent and think independently. Props to Craig for thinking of it, but God directed me to it. And God gave me the funds to play the game. He provided Craig with the funds to start the game, provided the raw materials to build the figures. . .

And no, I don't think Craig Van Ness is God.

...for all us Pagans he is the god of heroscape. By the way, we want our Christmass trees turned back into evergreens! :p

Where Christmas trees really came from! (http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm)

[Flavius Maximus]

It doesn't matter where the tradition of Christmas trees came from, it matters why you do it. Are you worshiping the tree? No. Are you using it to provide your home with an air of woodsiness? Maybe. Are you doing it because the smell of evergreen trees is comforting and goes well with hot cocoa? ;)

I refer you to Sa-N-Ta to ask for your presents
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/7/6/3/dscf5408.jpg

[J4Jandar]

It doesn't matter where the tradition of Christmas trees came from, it matters why you do it. Are you worshiping the tree? No. Are you using it to provide your home with an air of woodsiness? Maybe. Are you doing it because the smell of evergreen trees is comforting and goes well with hot cocoa? ;)

I refer you to Sa-N-Ta to ask for your presents
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/7/6/3/dscf5408.jpg

It was a joke but now that you bring it up I think organized religion does not have a live and let live past. From what I gather pagans were doing their own thing and Fledgling Christianity said:

"Hey, we need more followers!"

"Those Pagan guys have a bunch!"

"Well we'll just say their hollidays are part of our religion and tie them in with our story line. We'll keep saying that enough times people will start to believe us!"

"Great idea"!

Take a look and tell me what you think (http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm)

Check this one out too (http://godkind.org/pagan-holidays.html)

[J4Jandar]

Yeah, that is odd. I've been inside a church building exactly four times in the five or so years I've lived in the US. Every single time was to play Heroscape. Does that make Heroscape the Christians' best available shot to save my soul?


You better believe it. I would guess about four more games in a church and you will be one of us. Don't resist, that would be pointless. :)

I thought it was "Resistance is futile."? http://www.tdd.lt/%7Etract/new_site/kompiuteriai/pictures/misc/bill_borg.jpg
Fixed.

Woddy Allen or Bill Gates? If it's Gates I have already assimilated! (Go xbox!) :D

[Flavius Maximus]

Whoa, I was just trying to clarify and make a little humor. I admit I might have come on a little strong, but I refer once again to Romans 14:14 "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

Also, remember that humans are flawed. We don't always make the best decisions. Some might have used the tree to hook in unbelievers, some might have used it because it was tradition, they just did it for a different purpose, and some might just like the daily routine of calling to others family members, "Who watered the tree?" until it becomes a fire-hazard.

Besides, the Christmas tree is tied to Christmas by name and history. I don't feel a need to go to my neighbor's house and go Grinch on them for having a tree. Live and let live.




It just hit me. We're having a discussion about Christmas trees in May. :roll:

[J4Jandar]

Whoa, I was just trying to clarify and make a little humor. I admit I might have come on a little strong, but I refer once again to Romans 14:14 "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

Also, remember that humans are flawed. We don't always make the best decisions. Some might have used the tree to hook in unbelievers, some might have used it because it was tradition, they just did it for a different purpose, and some might just like the daily routine of calling to others family members, "Who watered the tree?" until it becomes a fire-hazard.

Besides, the Christmas tree is tied to Christmas by name and history. I don't feel a need to go to my neighbor's house and go Grinch on them for having a tree. Live and let live.




It just hit me. We're having a discussion about Christmas trees in May. :roll:
Don't you just love Christmas trees though! ;)

I am not upset at all, I just have issues with organized religion that I am thinking over. The idea is great, the people just mess things up. :D

[Flavius Maximus]

I forgot what the topic of this thread is about.
looking...
Ohhhh, now I remember. :)
:hijacked:

[J4Jandar]

I forgot what the topic of this thread is about.
looking...
Ohhhh, now I remember. :)
:hijacked:
No arrggg, just transitioning into how Christianity is trying to absorb heroscape to gain more followers. :p

[Flavius Maximus]

I think Heroscape is gravitating more Christian fans. Maybe it's the Templar? ;)

Gotta go, be back tomorrow.

[J4Jandar]

I think Heroscape is gravitating more Christian fans. Maybe it's the Templar? ;)

Gotta go, be back tomorrow.

Not necessarily, looket at my avatar...:roll:

Have a good one!

[jbbnbsmith]

I forgot what the topic of this thread is about.
looking...
Ohhhh, now I remember. :)
:hijacked:
No arrggg, just transitioning into how Christianity is trying to absorb heroscape to gain more followers. :p
And it's working, too. We almost have Ollie, and you're next! :)

[J4Jandar]

I forgot what the topic of this thread is about.
looking...
Ohhhh, now I remember. :)
:hijacked:
No arrggg, just transitioning into how Christianity is trying to absorb heroscape to gain more followers. :p
And it's working, too. We almost have Ollie, and you're next! :)

I'm working on it I sware! The whole "written over 900 years" and parts omitted from the bible have me curious.

Is this just "the greatest story ever told"?

[braveheart101]

Right, J4Jandar, lets get back on topic, please. I really think that 'scape is not "evil". I read LoTR, and I dont worship Eru ( Tolkiens god of middle earth). I read Harry potter, and I dont communicate with the dead or practice sorcery( Really, harry potter has a lot of Christain stuff in it). I go to House church and contribute to the conversation. I pray before mealtimes. I pray when afraid or anxious, I study the bible, and get involved in theological conversations with my mom. And yet, I play a game with aliens and Kyrie in it. So, no, I believe that Heroscape is not evil in of its self. Its only evil if it becomes an all consuming obbsession. THATS when demons get to work. THATS how things become evil.

[Pilgrim]

As a man of the cloth myself, let me set the record straight: Heroscape is undoubtedly evil. The sculptures are clearly diabolical and will lead you astray the more you play the game.

I strongly urge you to get rid of this game. As a service to this community, I will be happy to dispose of the figures for you. Send me a pm, and I will send you a prepaid shipping box with my address on it. Place your figures inside and send them to me and I will take care of the rest.

Starting with Ollie.

[jaamartin]

:woot::lol: Man, thanks for clearing it up... I will send you mine as soon as tomorrow arrives!:lol::woot:

[Nathify]

If you think its bad look at it this way, put concan up on a very tall cliff right next to a big lava field, put a minion next to him into the lava, make sure it doesn't look like he died. Ta-da! You just taught a bible lesson!

[J4Jandar]

As a man of the cloth myself, let me set the record straight: Heroscape is undoubtedly evil. The sculptures are clearly diabolical and will lead you astray the more you play the game.

I strongly urge you to get rid of this game. As a service to this community, I will be happy to dispose of the figures for you. Send me a pm, and I will send you a prepaid shipping box with my address on it. Place your figures inside and send them to me and I will take care of the rest.

Starting with Ollie.

Hey! Are you the guy from the comercials for "'scape for salvation"? :D

[ollie]

As a man of the cloth myself, let me set the record straight: Heroscape is undoubtedly evil. The sculptures are clearly diabolical and will lead you astray the more you play the game.

I strongly urge you to get rid of this game. As a service to this community, I will be happy to dispose of the figures for you. Send me a pm, and I will send you a prepaid shipping box with my address on it. Place your figures inside and send them to me and I will take care of the rest.

Starting with Ollie.

:lol:

Don't be surprised if I insist on drawing a pig's-blood pentagram on the floor around each of my game tables at next year's Beatdown to ward off your attempts. I might sacrifice a virgin too. Nothing to do with staving off Christians, it's just what I do for kicks.

[Lord Pyre]

As a man of the cloth myself, let me set the record straight: Heroscape is undoubtedly evil. The sculptures are clearly diabolical and will lead you astray the more you play the game.

I strongly urge you to get rid of this game. As a service to this community, I will be happy to dispose of the figures for you. Send me a pm, and I will send you a prepaid shipping box with my address on it. Place your figures inside and send them to me and I will take care of the rest.

Starting with Ollie.

:lol:

Don't be surprised if I insist on drawing a pig's-blood pentagram on the floor around each of my game tables at next year's Beatdown to ward off your attempts. I might sacrifice a virgin too. Nothing to do with staving off Christians, it's just what I do for kicks.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

[Kaemon Awasome]

While I agree the conduct of the crusaders was reprehensible, lets not pretend that they are the only party with blood on their hands.I would love it if everyone realized that there was no clear cut good guy during the crusades. Atrocities abounded. Christians raped, pillaged and cannibalized. Muslims also raped pillaged (not sure about cannibalism). It surprises me to this day that there are folks who believe that the Christians were on a spiritual journey with good intentions during the crusades. I am also surprised at the stilted way that some movies portray the innocent and victimised Muslims..

I'm equally surprised that most people don't distinguish between being "Christian" or "Muslim" in name, and being one in deed. Many people claiming to be Christians did those things, but none of their actions were in accord with Christ. To call them "Christians" is very charitable towards them, and very misleading to others.

[Kaemon Awasome]

Now as far as Christianity being for or against HS: everything in the game comes down to strategy. You could essentially recreate the entire thing with none of the pictures and names and have the same game play... it just wouldn't be as cool.

Nothing about the Minions or Taelord even closely resembles the person of Satan or his "minions." And as cool as Raelin is, there is no way in the world that she represents what angels actually look like.

Now some images are more gruesome or scary looking than others (for children), but there is no real correlation between them and actual evil. Interestingly, the prophet Isaiah was terrified of God when His holiness appeared to him in the temple (Isaiah 6). God in His righteousness is waaaaay scarier than Satan.

[jschild]

While I agree the conduct of the crusaders was reprehensible, lets not pretend that they are the only party with blood on their hands.I would love it if everyone realized that there was no clear cut good guy during the crusades. Atrocities abounded. Christians raped, pillaged and cannibalized. Muslims also raped pillaged (not sure about cannibalism). It surprises me to this day that there are folks who believe that the Christians were on a spiritual journey with good intentions during the crusades. I am also surprised at the stilted way that some movies portray the innocent and victimised Muslims..

I'm equally surprised that most people don't distinguish between being "Christian" or "Muslim" in name, and being one in deed. Many people claiming to be Christians did those things, but none of their actions were in accord with Christ. To call them "Christians" is very charitable towards them, and very misleading to others.

Actually I'd say it is fully fair to say that "Christians" were responsible for the Crusades. It was with full support of the Church that it happened. You cannot just say "Oh, those weren't "real" Christians" as they were often supported by much of the populance (unless your kids one were dragged into it). The actions were indeed very far from "Christlike" however. The blame in this case however falls to the organized Church, and not individual Christians, for setting everything in motion, and teaching the populance that the "Church" should be listened to and obeyed (good reason to keep the church and state seperate).

Now, for smaller scale actions, it doesn't really apply as much - IE, some "Christian" nutjob shoots some unbeliviers, has absolutely nothing to do with the faith, or the church. Same with Muslims, but both religions as a whole, at least in the "Organized" sense, have acted very unlike their teachings.

[Kaemon Awasome]

While I agree the conduct of the crusaders was reprehensible, lets not pretend that they are the only party with blood on their hands.I would love it if everyone realized that there was no clear cut good guy during the crusades. Atrocities abounded. Christians raped, pillaged and cannibalized. Muslims also raped pillaged (not sure about cannibalism). It surprises me to this day that there are folks who believe that the Christians were on a spiritual journey with good intentions during the crusades. I am also surprised at the stilted way that some movies portray the innocent and victimised Muslims..

I'm equally surprised that most people don't distinguish between being "Christian" or "Muslim" in name, and being one in deed. Many people claiming to be Christians did those things, but none of their actions were in accord with Christ. To call them "Christians" is very charitable towards them, and very misleading to others.

Actually I'd say it is fully fair to say that "Christians" were responsible for the Crusades. It was with full support of the Church that it happened. You cannot just say "Oh, those weren't "real" Christians" as they were often supported by much of the populance (unless your kids one were dragged into it). The actions were indeed very far from "Christlike" however. The blame in this case however falls to the organized Church, and not individual Christians, for setting everything in motion, and teaching the populance that the "Church" should be listened to and obeyed (good reason to keep the church and state seperate).

Now, for smaller scale actions, it doesn't really apply as much - IE, some "Christian" nutjob shoots some unbeliviers, has absolutely nothing to do with the faith, or the church. Same with Muslims, but both religions as a whole, at least in the "Organized" sense, have acted very unlike their teachings.

Ahh, but that delves into a completely different debate that I won't get into. Suffice to say that claiming the crusades had the full backing of the church is a bit of a presumption. They had the backing of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Church" (with a capital C) is the global body of Christ consisting of all those that have been born again through faith in Christ's atoning work on the Cross. They are not necessarily the same thing.

When we're not specific about things, we end up accusing all modern day Germans of killing Jews. Or all white Americans of being guilty of slavery. It's important to disntinguish things correctly, and it seems unfair to me to make a blanket statement that Christians raped and pillaged others (when in reality, there were probably just as many non-Christians who were guilty of raping and pillaging, and I'm not referencing Muslims).

But I digress... HeroScape IS NOT evil.

[Grishnakh]

I was surfing around youtube the other night and I came across this 60 minutes video from 1985 that talked about all of the hysteria surrounding Dungeons and Dragons. I watched it with a passing interest and recall thinking, wow, I am certainly glad we are past those days and that way of thinking. And then I stumble across this thread. I really don't know what to think guys, the fact that some of you are even seriously talking about this simply astonishes me.

Anyway, here's the link to part one of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbcWKWp2UE4

[lafleurhero]

I've posted some before that I used to be in a Christian cult. Of course most Christian churches aren't cults and most cults aren't christian but there are such thing as Christian cults. It taught that anything that wasn't of the church or of God was of the devil. Cards weren't allowed, dice weren't allowed. No music besides Christian music and Christian rock was of satan as well. TV, cartoons, basically anything that was done for entertainment was satanic. Women weren't allowed to cut hair or wear any makeup. Church services were held every night of the week, except fridays, and you were expected to attend all services. The Preacher was considered the voice of God, there were no freedoms to decide for yourself what is right or wrong. All decisions were made for you.

After leaving the cult I did attend more normal churches. Eventually I started to think more for myself, do my own studies. Finally I left Christianity completely convinced that it was the wrong path for me. After about 3 years I found my path. Since then I have found the power within myself to overcome addiction to tobacco and alchohol. Something I was never able to overcome as a Christian. I can honestly say that I live a morally better life now than I ever did as a Christian. I won't go into details about what path I walk now, I just wanted to give a bit on my background.

I think now that if your spiritual path is so weak that you must avoid anything that has anything to do with something outside your path, then your probably on the wrong path. Isn't the Christian god supposed to be stronger than Satan? How then are these Christians so afraid of being pulled away that they must avoid everything that isn't Christian? If it is so easy for Satan to turn everyone from God, then doesn't that make him the stronger god? Of course this is hogwash.

The problem is that people put too much faith in a particular Church, Preacher, Demonination, or Creed. Instead they should be seeking their own personal relationships with this higher power. By subjecting to a set of church rules they are becoming mindless slaves. They are putting faith in things created by man rather than the true powers around them. I've seen alot of many good points from people around here and I don't feel the need to repeat all of those. I just want to add one thing. Those people that have such heavy laws and need to avoid everything "ungodly". I think they are the ones who have no relationship with God and have put their faith in the wrong things. Also I've never seen any teaching that says that we are to have boring lives and not allowed to have any fun. Fun is a good thing, as long as it causes no harm to another being.

[jschild]

The biggest problem is that Satan is nothing more than an excuse. Satan did not lead you astray, you did. Satan did not make you give into temptation, you chose too.

If you accept Christianity, then you accept that we are free to choose and just as God cannot make you do anything, neither can Satan. It's your choice and the only way Heroscape can be considered "evil" is if you choose it to be, because nothing in it is evil.

[Drumline3469]

I've posted some before that I used to be in a Christian cult. Of course most Christian churches aren't cults and most cults aren't christian but there are such thing as Christian cults. It taught that anything that wasn't of the church or of God was of the devil. Cards weren't allowed, dice weren't allowed. No music besides Christian music and Christian rock was of satan as well. TV, cartoons, basically anything that was done for entertainment was satanic. Women weren't allowed to cut hair or wear any makeup. Church services were held every night of the week, except fridays, and you were expected to attend all services. The Preacher was considered the voice of God, there were no freedoms to decide for yourself what is right or wrong. All decisions were made for you.

After leaving the cult I did attend more normal churches. Eventually I started to think more for myself, do my own studies. Finally I left Christianity completely convinced that it was the wrong path for me. After about 3 years I found my path. Since then I have found the power within myself to overcome addiction to tobacco and alchohol. Something I was never able to overcome as a Christian. I can honestly say that I live a morally better life now than I ever did as a Christian. I won't go into details about what path I walk now, I just wanted to give a bit on my background.

I think now that if your spiritual path is so weak that you must avoid anything that has anything to do with something outside your path, then your probably on the wrong path. Isn't the Christian god supposed to be stronger than Satan? How then are these Christians so afraid of being pulled away that they must avoid everything that isn't Christian? If it is so easy for Satan to turn everyone from God, then doesn't that make him the stronger god? Of course this is hogwash.

The problem is that people put too much faith in a particular Church, Preacher, Demonination, or Creed. Instead they should be seeking their own personal relationships with this higher power. By subjecting to a set of church rules they are becoming mindless slaves. They are putting faith in things created by man rather than the true powers around them. I've seen alot of many good points from people around here and I don't feel the need to repeat all of those. I just want to add one thing. Those people that have such heavy laws and need to avoid everything "ungodly". I think they are the ones who have no relationship with God and have put their faith in the wrong things. Also I've never seen any teaching that says that we are to have boring lives and not allowed to have any fun. Fun is a good thing, as long as it causes no harm to another being.

The thing with Christian Cults is they take truth and blow it out of proportion for our time period. The Bible does make mention that there is a clear distinction that that everything that is not from God is not of God (I am not sure where). God always says things are black and white. The whole lukewarm analogy and so-on. The problem is that in today's society, it is nearly impossible to not interact with something that is not of God. While we still can use things not inherently "of God" for His glory (ie. using Heroscape to create a time of fellowship), it is very hard to stay on the line of "Everything I do/watch/read/eat/ etc is of God and thus good." Christian Cults blow things like that WAY out of proportion and they also pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe. I had the pastor of a Christian Cult call me one day to tell me that I was going to hell unless I get baptized as Jesus stated in the Great Commision. I informed him that the bible clearly states that if oyu confess with your mouth and believe in your hear that Jesus is Lord, then you will be saved. He ask who wrote that and I told him I thought i was Paul. He then asked if I was going to believe Paul or Jesus.

On the note of Heroscape: As stated earlier, nothing is inherently evil or anti-Christian about it. It all lays in the player's intentions.

[Harlax]

The problem is that people put too much faith in a particular Church, Preacher, Demonination, or Creed. Instead they should be seeking their own personal relationships with this higher power. By subjecting to a set of church rules they are becoming mindless slaves. They are putting faith in things created by man rather than the true powers around them. I've seen alot of many good points from people around here and I don't feel the need to repeat all of those.

On the other hand, there is danger in "do it yourself" theology. Yes, you must find your own relationship with God. Yet I find it clear that we are also called to be in relationship with one another. And mutual accountibilty is part of the package. Many of the cults you reference started with an individual or small group and could only flourish outside of (if I can use this term in this context) the "reality check" mutual accountibility brings. This is the strength of the Church. Others have covered its weaknesses, so I don't need to rehearse those again.

[Harlax]

I had the pastor of a Christian Cult call me one day to tell me that I was going to hell unless I get baptized as Jesus stated in the Great Commision. I informed him that the bible clearly states that if oyu confess with your mouth and believe in your hear that Jesus is Lord, then you will be saved. He ask who wrote that and I told him I thought i was Paul. He then asked if I was going to believe Paul or Jesus.


The devastating reply for such a one would be to ask him if he is saying that part of the bible is false. Watch him squirm on that one...

[Drumline3469]

I had the pastor of a Christian Cult call me one day to tell me that I was going to hell unless I get baptized as Jesus stated in the Great Commision. I informed him that the bible clearly states that if oyu confess with your mouth and believe in your hear that Jesus is Lord, then you will be saved. He ask who wrote that and I told him I thought i was Paul. He then asked if I was going to believe Paul or Jesus.


The devasting reply for such a one would be to ask him if he is saying that part of the bible is false. Watch him squirm on that one...

I quoted John 1:1 "All word is living and God-breathed" or something to that extent. It goes on to talk about in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word WAS God and other stuff. I can't recall it exactly.

[Pilgrim]

I was surfing around youtube the other night and I came across this 60 minutes video from 1985 that talked about all of the hysteria surrounding Dungeons and Dragons. I watched it with a passing interest and recall thinking, wow, I am certainly glad we are past those days and that way of thinking. And then I stumble across this thread. I really don't know what to think guys, the fact that some of you are even seriously talking about this simply astonishes me.

Anyway, here's the link to part one of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbcWKWp2UE4

Actually Grish, D&D is even worse than Heroscape in terms of evil. Check out this clip, if you haven't already, that proves the danger of D&D fairly conclusively.

http://www.cybermoonstudios.com/8bitDandD.html


And my offer still stands to help those of you ready to give up Scape by taking your figures and disposing of them properly.

In particular, I've determined the follow figures and pieces are particularly evil and should be sent first:

1. Nerak
2. Sir Hawthorne
3. Master Woo
4. EOV
5. Agent Skahen
6. Flagbearers
7. Thaelenk Tundra sets

As a rule of thumb, log onto ebay and see how much a figure is going for. Typically the higher the price, the more likely it is to be evil, and the more urgent it is that you send that piece to a reputable piece-purger like myself.

[Confred]

It boils down to: Is combat/Destruction/Eliminating Targets evil?

Removing the images of the individual pieces, you are training your mind in puzzle solving - which is good; however, the particular puzzle is to destroy a life.
If you look at HS from a puzzle perspective and do not fantasize further into what the actions represent (murder) - And teach your followers accordingly - it is acceptable.
But once you cross that line, the mind can wander into perverse territory.
As a Christian Soldier, you should be strong enough to not cross that line.
The liberal method is to remain in the thick and use only the tools of good, and to never cross the line
The conservative is to completely leave alone any trace of evil.

The world is complex and each fate is crafted specifically to the individual - what is right for me doesn't have to be right for another.
Personally, I feel the world contains too much gray to lump it with black and avoid completely. Thus I choose the liberal tactic said above.

Some people are allowed the life of living only in white, completely segregating themselves from everything else. This is fine for them, but to most of us it is practically fantasy.
But even in such life, they are still tested.

Building the strategic mind can help some to problem solve out of evil; yet to others it can convolute, complicate, and confuse - misguide and corrupt.

=

As an Aside: Dungeons and Dragons is a Completely Different Issue.

The main question is: Is fantasizing another existence Evil?
God created a life for us to live and the will to live it, yet we choose to live in world that is not his and subsequently contains items that are taught against.

It depends on how deep one goes. Played as a game, it can be dangerous and lead to corruption - But is mostly inconsequential and forgiven
However, those that become obsessed and truly role play can offend God - Such efforts could be put towards his world, but instead they aren't - Following False Icons/Works

[skyknight]

wow...I haven't heard that D&D can be evil crap in a long time Confred... I remember during the great D&D scare we had like one kid hang himself over it....I am Christian and so are my parents...I thank God...yes God...they had the wisdom to see beyond the stupid negative hype and allowed me my childhood....thanks Mom and Dad...love you guys.

And Pilgrim...that clip is from the game Summoner on PS2 if you ever want to see the real video...its pretty good:p

[RobWeaver]

I had the pastor of a Christian Cult call me one day to tell me that I was going to hell unless I get baptized as Jesus stated in the Great Commision. I informed him that the bible clearly states that if oyu confess with your mouth and believe in your hear that Jesus is Lord, then you will be saved. He ask who wrote that and I told him I thought i was Paul. He then asked if I was going to believe Paul or Jesus.


The devasting reply for such a one would be to ask him if he is saying that part of the bible is false. Watch him squirm on that one...

I quoted John 1:1 "All word is living and God-breathed" or something to that extent. It goes on to talk about in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word WAS God and other stuff. I can't recall it exactly.
Actually, what you had in mind was 2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness ... " and so forth. That comment about Paul or Jesus was inconsisent with good biblical theology. You, at the very least, were dealing with someone the New Testament calls "contentious." Troublemakers. The advice: leave them alone. Yes, there are Christian groups who condemn everything except talking about God and going to church. I prefer to work out my faith along the guidelines of Philippians 4:8: "... whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things." Is that a little harder than "Touch not! Taste not! Handle not!" Sure. Is it more rewarding? Sure.
BTW - I'm tired of "Christians" having to shoulder the blame for the Crusades. Wars in real life are not like in fantasy where there's a "good side" and a "bad side;" the reality is more complex. More useful to see the entire period as a power struggle between many players: the Turks, the Caliphate of Damascus, the Caliphate of Egypt, the Papacy, the Venetians, the Byzantines, the various European kingdoms and last but not least, the short-lived Kingdom of Jerusalem.

[Pilgrim]

And Pilgrim...that clip is from the game Summoner on PS2 if you ever want to see the real video...its pretty good:p

Cool - never knew where that came from. That clip resonates with everyone who played D&D as a teen because it's SO much like the typical game session.

[RobWeaver]

I think a lot of the "D&D is evil" witchunt mentality can be blamed on the televangelists of the late 80s. The Cold War was winding down, so anti-Communism wasn't a seller anymore and they needed a sensational subject for viewership and donations. Gamers probably seemed like a pretty safe group to beat up on. Television, in many cases, does not bring out the best in Christian ministries.

[Grishnakh]

And Pilgrim...that clip is from the game Summoner on PS2 if you ever want to see the real video...its pretty good:p

Cool - never knew where that came from. That clip resonates with everyone who played D&D as a teen because it's SO much like the typical game session.

You want something that resonates with everyone who ever played D&D Pilgrim then watch these:

The Gamers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiTEHqAeanw

The Gamers 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwtH5oQqHPg

[Ugly-Caco]

HS, it's the Devil's!

[Daddio]

Oh, I'll chime in.

My parents are ministers and were generally against a lot of...well...everything. D&D was evil, smurfs, He-Man, and the list goes on.

Now, some of this stuff might actually have some negative connotations, but I wasn't allowed to be into any of it, so I don't even know - maybe I was a little repressed?

But HeroScape? Totally harmless. I myself don't like some of the more "devil-looking" figures and zombies, so I don't buy them, but I think that if you worry about them over-much you are giving the devil and the work of evil much more credit than it deserves.

So far as the argument about "killing" being part of the game, you could say the same about Chess. No serious religious person would be against Chess!

This kind of thought process is why a lot of people have either turned away from Puritanism or from religion as a whole, I think.

[Taeblewalker]

So far as the argument about "killing" being part of the game, you could say the same about Chess. No serious religious person would be against Chess!

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7378/religion.htm

[Clockwork_Knight]

This is way I'm glad I'm Wiccan, i dot have to deal with a lot of the flack coming off of main stream religions on things like D and D. A lot of the people who call things like D and D, Yu Gi Oh, Harry Potter and Heroscape evil or what not come off as not being very faithful in their own religion to me.

I've been playing D and D since 1th ed and Magic the Gathering since Ice Age and neither has caused me to grow horns or anything any more then playing The Suffering: The Ties That Bind has caused me to go out and murder people.

[Fencerjared]

I don't remember if it was on this forum or a different RPG forum but I read once about a person who asked their local occult bookstore to stock D&D books as there was no game store in the area. The response was something to the effect of, "We don't approve of the game because real magic is trivialized in the game." I guess it doesn't matter which camp you go to, some will disapprove of gaming wherever you go.
Guess you didn't read that post. Highly anecdotal, but I'm sure true to some degree.

[Taeblewalker]

I don't remember if it was on this forum or a different RPG forum but I read once about a person who asked their local occult bookstore to stock D&D books as there was no game store in the area. The response was something to the effect of, "We don't approve of the game because real magic is trivialized in the game." I guess it doesn't matter which camp you go to, some will disapprove of gaming wherever you go.
Guess you didn't read that post. Highly anecdotal, but I'm sure true to some degree.

Or they're just afraid of seeming to geeky. ;)

[Ugly-Caco]

Actually it's innate in everyone to want to kick some ass. So if you do it for the heck of it in real life then that's bad (unless that asskickee was asking for it). But if you do it across hextiled maps...no harm in that.

Heck even Christians go to war.

[Rew]

I'm bumping and responding to this because this is is an amazingly smart thread/read. You Heroscape folks kind of amaze me.

I think, as others have expressed in different words, the crux of this issue is how one views what I will call a "mental exposure to evil", and how Heroscape may, or may not, facilitate this exposure. I'm going to steer this away from religious lines and more toward general philosophy.

On one hand you have ideas that basically hold to a belief that thoughts should always be kept good and pure. Allowing oneself to think and explore evil/demonic things opens oneself to their influence and can lead to evil actions and corruptions. Pure thoughts, lead to pure being, pure actions, and a pure and good life. Humans are corruptible and vulnerable so you should not risk yourself in any manner.

The other stance I would describe as the belief that to truly know what it is to be human, and the true nature of good, one must know and understand evil. This doesn't mean one is sympathetic to evil, embraces it, or commits evil acts. This means one can understand its nature. This understanding of evil strengthens ones defense and recognition of it. It also strengthens convictions in good and ones ability to do good in the world.

I'm in the latter camp and believe that healthy fantasy and exploration is a necessary part of becoming a well adjusted and good person. Of-course its never that simple and the other side does hold truth too. I believe that a continuous thought, dwelling, or verbal expression of negative/evil things, in a very heartfelt, direct, and repeated manner, will continue oneself to slide further down that dark direction. Not to sound to mystical and new age on you, but, simplistically, I believe good energy/thoughts increase the pool of good. While the same is true that negative thoughts/energy increase the pool of bad. Pretending to be evil, is not truly evil, and does not increase the pool.

Heroscape, unless you are Truth (har har), will not be something you shape your world view around. But you can learn positive themes from it. The spirit and intent of the game is all good. I see no evil in my plastic, my intent is good, and therefore my Heroscape playing is good. Just because I have iconic daemon figures in my game doesn't automatically relegate the game to being evil.

I find that famous quote, "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" especially relevant to this topic. I truly believe that all humans act from a base of believing they are doing good. Religious fanaticism is nothing more then good taken to such an extreme that it is evil. Again, this is why I believe fantasy is important. It allows us to safely explore evil so that we can recognize it in its many forms and within ourselves. Closing your eyes to it doesn't lessen the fact that it is there, and I strongly disagree with it making you any more protected, or less influenced, by never having any healthy exposure or exploration of it.

[LUX]

jaamartin,

That way lies madness. Since the world is corrupted, what can exist in it that does not have the potential to entice in some fashion? From the Christian perspective the problem isn't so much the things around us (including Heroscape), but our response to those things. It seems to me that Christians should follow Christ's example of spending time with non-Christians engaging in normal activities. Playing games is one of those normal activities.

~Aldin, who has actually thought a lot about this type of stuff

Aldin hit the nail on the head as far as a good Christian perspective is concerned. RL I am involved with full time ministry, and on the road to being a pastor. Some families will choose to have their kids avoid watching certain shows, or playing certain games, and that is their discretion. My focus is in families and I wish some would show a little more *mutters something about parents that let their 6 year old play Left 4 Dead* Ahem. There are certain games that could be considered inappropriate for Christians, like Ouija. Funny enough, there's no figures that resemble demonic figures listed in Scripture, only those listed in folklore (the Bible does not describe the devil as looking like Taelord).

Christians should engage with non-believers as Aldin mentioned, as a light in the darkness. It's possible that a Christian could become overconsumed with a game and neglect their responsibilities as a believer, but barring that, there's nothing wrong with heroscape from the perspective of the Bible, just from the perspective of some folks personal preferences.

[Odin_Osgard]

Personally I believe that we as humans decide what is evil. Just as we decide what offends us we decide what we believe is evil. You choose what you believe to be evil based on your own thoughts and investigation. If one lets games become evil you will begin to sttrip the good things away from your life. God, if you believe in him, has created you. You derive pleasure from certain things- games, books, exercise, what ever. God put you on the earth knowing you would enjoy these things so clearly they aren't bad. If you begin to shelter yourself from all the things that could corrupt you, you are left with nothing. Slowly you take away all that you get joy from. God didn't put us on the earth to suffer. We were put here to lead healthy lives. Happiness is part of healthiness. Don't worry about stuff like games and books. If you live a good life you will recieve a good afterlife. P

[Odin_Osgard]

double post

[SuperflyTNT]

Humans decide what THEY think is evil, and always have, but a good 80%+ of the known universe has a set of morals elicited for them in their "Codex of Ultimate Wisdom and Morality", ie. Qua'ran, Tanakh, King James Bible....

[chas]

I resonate with the honest difficulty of resolving the suitability of something you like for yourself, if it is a practice your community may disapprove of. Life will continue to do this to you. Ultimately, you will have to decide which Voice to listen to, the one inside you or the one that comes from other people.

For those of us who have joined and left various groups of different kinds over many years, I wish for you that eventually it strengthens your inner compass. Don't forget to hold the group up to the same standard you hold for yourself! You are made in the image of God. He/She appears to be leaving it up to you...