Nilfheim and the balrog

[theats]

scince it has the same stance, and general look, has anyone repainted nilfiem to look like this?
http://uk.games-workshop.com/moria/light-up-balrog/images/balrog-complete.gif

[Fsiv330]

good idea, id do it if i could

[reapersaurus]

well, there already is a pre-paionted plastic balrog figure.....
course, it's frickin HUGE!!! :lol:

http://www.boardgamecompany.co.uk/LotRBalrog.jpg
And it comes with a die!
Funny thing is - this huge guy only costs as much as the standard bearers will together. Man, Hasbro's gonna make a killing with them. :headshake:

[toddrew]

[quote="reapersaurus"]well, there already is a pre-paionted plastic balrog figure.....
course, it's frickin HUGE!!! :lol:[quote]

What? It's only a nine-hexer :lol:

On a serious note, are those hexes near the same dimensions as the HS hex?

[Rhydderch]

[quote="reapersaurus"]well, there already is a pre-paionted plastic balrog figure.....
course, it's frickin HUGE!!! :lol:[quote]

What? It's only a nine-hexer :lol:

On a serious note, are those hexes near the same dimensions as the HS hex?

I believe so.

[Rhydderch]

well, there already is a pre-paionted plastic balrog figure.....
course, it's frickin HUGE!!! :lol:

http://www.boardgamecompany.co.uk/LotRBalrog.jpg
And it comes with a die!
Funny thing is - this huge guy only costs as much as the standard bearers will together. Man, Hasbro's gonna make a killing with them. :headshake:

Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to say Hasbro will not only make a killing on those standard bearers... they might as well ask us for our immortal souls at that price =(

I really hope there is a reason for those guys to cost so much. Or better yet they can always bring the price down. Then again maybe they saw how much people paid for Nerak and Sir Hawthorne and decided we would still buy the figures even if they did cost us an arm and a leg =(

[reapersaurus]

I'm afraid they are testing the water to see what kind of pricepoint they can extract with this game.

If so, I kinda hope the standrad bearers don;t sell well, to show Hasbro that HS fans don;t appreciate being price-gouged $10 for one small figure and 1 die.

But I'm not gonna hold my breath.
Regardless of price, I hope the abilities and costs of the figures are balanced and appropriate.

[ChaosChild]

It is not just 1 die. It is 12 combat dice with the extra symbol on the blank side, a 20-sided die, and a dice bag. Along with the figure.

I think it is only slightly overpriced. :wink:

[Grungebob]

I don't think they are over priced. People are griping that Hawthorne and Nerak are not available for purchase and easily spend 3 or 4 times as much on those units and they only consist of a figure and a card. These are going to be a real value and nowhere does it say that you need to buy all of them.

[ChaosChild]

...and nowhere does it say that you need to buy all of them.

I would have to check but, I'm pretty sure all my Heroscape packaging says "You need to buy all of them". :lol:

[LilNewbie]

No that's pokemon...."Gotta catch them all..."

:D

Newb.

[Rhydderch]

Regardless of price, I hope the abilities and costs of the figures are balanced and appropriate.

Agreed. The last thing we need is an overpriced figure with unimaginative and unbalanced abilities. Oye!

It is not just 1 die. It is 12 combat dice with the extra symbol on the blank side, a 20-sided die, and a dice bag. Along with the figure.

I think it is only slightly overpriced. :wink:

Have we confirmed those are actually dice in the picture and not just the background printed on the box?

Either way it is overpriced. If you buy all 5 standard bearers you have to pay for those 12 combat dice each time and I think I have enough already. Honestly I think the designers just added the combat dice so people will say: it is only slightly overpriced :P :wink:

Besides for the price of all 5 standard bearers you could buy an extra master set with 30+ figures and terrain. Not to mention a good number of dice and probably a booster too.

I still want the standard bearers. I'm just not sure I will have the money to buy them.

Sorry for the threadjack but I think it is the market plan for Heroscape to turn it into a collectible game while claiming it is not in order to draw the most fans possible. So far we have exclusives, plus standard bearers which will go for the price of collectible rares from other random-purchase games, and a really bad distribution scheme which makes most of their figures really hard to find! =P

Plus has anyone else wondered why they release their boosters in waves which are not replaced on the shelves once they are sold? It really seems like they have followed the limited release pattern of most miniatures collectible games.

Obviously I cannot be certain that is their market plan but I think it is possible. Either way I'm happy the figures are very popular and sad they are so expensive though I guess those two facts go hand in hand, now don't they? :P

[reapersaurus]

GB - do you actually stand by your statement that one figure and a die and bag are "a real value" at $10?
Even knowing what kind of quality and Huge figures and variety you can get with games like D&D minis?

Chaos - where was it clarified that 12 extra dice come with the standard bearers? That WOULD help the pricepoint problem.....

Comparing the standard bearer price to Nerak and Hawthorne is so inaccurate as to be ridiculous.

[LilNewbie]

Here is a picture of the back of the standard bearer box (thanks to BoB for posting it):

http://www.terminalcore.com/heroScape/DSC02946.JPG

In the contents window:

Figure
Army Card
Looks like 14 dice instead of 12.
D20
Cloth Bag

Newb.

[ChaosChild]

Have we confirmed those are actually dice in the picture and not just the background printed on the box?


Yes, that is just the background. However, I did ask while I was at GenCon. I recieved the same answer from 2 different people. 12 combat dice, 1 20-sider, dice bag.

edit - 14 dice. Thanks Newb.

[Grungebob]

GB - do you actually stand by your statement that one figure and a die and bag are "a real value" at $10?
Even knowing what kind of quality and Huge figures and variety you can get with games like D&D minis?

Chaos - where was it clarified that 12 extra dice come with the standard bearers? That WOULD help the pricepoint problem.....

Comparing the standard bearer price to Nerak and Hawthorne is so inaccurate as to be ridiculous.The 12 dice as you see are verified and we have been discussing them for a while. They will be engraved and thus of higher quality than the regular dice. There will be a nicer 20 sider and a dice bag with the general's logo on it. I used the example of Hawthorne and Nerak as examples of what others seem to be willing to pay for significantly less product..... And no you are wrong. It is not ridiculous.

[Rhydderch]

Ahh we got a picture of the back of the box. Never saw that before. Thanks for posting it Lilnewbie!

Good to see the standard bearer does at least come with dice. The "counting only skulls or shields" would imply there is an extra face on the Valkyrie Dice similar to the old Heroquest dice.

Still seems too expensive though. The new die can be simulated by counting the blank face on the regular combat die as the special side.

Hrm. I guess thats what I'll do if I cannot get ahold of the standard bearers. Then maybe I can mod one of my orcs/samurai/elves/knights/gorrilas to make standard bearers. LOL!

[LilNewbie]

Just for the record, the picture credit should go to BoB. I just found his original post and linked the picture.

Newb.

[Rhydderch]

Just for the record, the picture credit should go to BoB. I just found his original post and linked the picture.

Newb.

Ok. Thanks GB! Awesome picture. Now we have a pretty good idea of what Ornak does which is cool. Maybe if I make a faux card for him now and use a random orc to represent him I'll get used to it so I do not feel bad when the real figure comes out! =P

Or maybe I should just start saving up. When do those guys come out anyway?

[reapersaurus]

I used the example of Hawthorne and Nerak as examples of what others seem to be willing to pay for significantly less product..... And no you are wrong. It is not ridiculous.So -

you feel it is appropriate to compare HS product pricing with obsessive-compulsive EBayers who pay $50 for one figure and card (for a figure that has less than 2000 made)?

Because I call that a ridiculous and inaccurate comparison, and support it with the following:
a) the buyers of Nerak are not typical buyers of Heroscape - the demographic for this game is not EBay OCD-type people with $50 to spend on one figure.
b) there will be MUCH much more than 2000 standard bearers available to the nation, sold in many many locations (not just one on the planet).

Seriously - with all due respect, GB - how do you think those are the same situations?

[Grungebob]

The amount of money spent on Nerak and Hawthorne are good indicators of demand and also good indicators of the amount of disposable income waiting to be spent on this game that has not yet been tapped into. I would think that players will be happy that they do not have to find a scalper to get a cool figure that is an army center piece like these guys will be.

[reapersaurus]

But GB - do you WANT our disposable income to be decreased, just because Hasbro feels the market will bear it?

That sure sounds like you are a supporter of Hasbro over the fans, and I can't believe that. :confused:

Please tell me there is some benefit to the fans if we have to spend Nerak-level $$$ for one figure.
Please get across to us how this would be a beneficial thing to this game.

[jdtenor]

I signed up for direct withdrawel to Hasbro, they take half my check & send me cool heroscape stuff!

[Rhydderch]

The amount of money spent on Nerak and Hawthorne are good indicators of demand and also good indicators of the amount of disposable income waiting to be spent on this game that has not yet been tapped into.

While I understand it from a market point of view I do not see how that would justify the cost to the buyers.

That would be like if I charged $100 for an apple and told people it was because I wanted to tap into their disposable income. Which I guess would work if the people were starving but it would still be price gouging and certainly not justified in the buyers' eyes.

Just because people have money to spare does not mean it has to be tapped into. Nor does it justify the high cost.

[Doc_Savage]

If the cost is too high, people won't buy. My son and his friends will probably just get their favorite general. It is just us 1000 or so who must have it all and in mass quantities.

How much are 14 general specific custom dice worth?

I would be happier with these at $8, but I'll pay $10.

[Augray]

I posted this in the Flagbearer's thread, but I guess it bears repeating

Let's say I wanted to buy all the items included with the flagbearer retail online:

dice bag= $3.00 to $5.00
20 sided die= $.75
14 custom 6 sided dice= $.25 to $.50 (x 14)=$3.50 to $7.00
Total w/out figure=$7.25-$12.75

Hasbro's price of $10 doesn't look so bad.

[reapersaurus]

Those estimates are all overestimated IMO.

I highly doubt that the dice bag is going to be one that is $4 worth.
20-sided dice are very cheap. Go to any store, and buy their plain bulk ones for 20 cents a piece.
14 custom dice is harder to calculate, since Hasbro is making them in huge numbers. But I certainly wouldn;t put a $5 pricetag on dice (that are being forced on the purchase).

I'm still VERY interested in hearing Grungebob's explanation that helps me understand what he means when he suggests that Heroscape should cost MORE and we are lucky not to pay scalper prices for these army centerpieces. :confused:

[theats]

i know this is a heated discussion, but shouldn't it be transfered to another thread?

this is a bolrog thread by the way.

On topic, Does anyone won't to paint up a convert of nilfiem for scappers to see, or has anyone already done this?

[theats]

oh, i see now, the only reason this was a hot topic was to talk about Generals. scince i got this thread back on track, there has been no response for three hours!
THREE HOURS!!!

surely someone has a bolrog Custom?

[Rhydderch]

oh, i see now, the only reason this was a hot topic was to talk about Generals. scince i got this thread back on track, there has been no response for three hours!
THREE HOURS!!!

surely someone has a bolrog Custom?

Sorry but I do not even have one Nilfheim right now much less an extra one to paint up to look like the Balrog.

[Nwojedi]

why would someone make a bolrog custom, when you can buy the one from the LOTR game and it looks killer. Already has the same HEX base as HS.

[theats]

too big.

[Nwojedi]

too big.

how so? he's the balrog. A demon from the underworld. SHould he not be the single most powerful force in HS? Should he not be able to smite the dragons and Jotun like they were Orc archers? I think his size is relevant to his power.

[toddrew]

too big.

how so? he's the balrog. A demon from the underworld. SHould he not be the single most powerful force in HS? Should he not be able to smite the dragons and Jotun like they were Orc archers? I think his size is relevant to his power.

It's Gandalf one needs to worry about costing correctly ;)

[Turtleboy]

Neilfhim =/= Barlog.

Not to mention, he is the barlog, the reason no one has done Godzilla is Size issues, but if you play with more than 2 master sets, Size shouldnt be an issure, he could easly be a large front line assult unit, thats most of your army.

[theats]

i have four, and i was just stating that they looked similar in shape, not size.

[Rhydderch]

too big.

how so? he's the balrog. A demon from the underworld. SHould he not be the single most powerful force in HS? Should he not be able to smite the dragons and Jotun like they were Orc archers? I think his size is relevant to his power.

Actually the size of the Balrog is speculative because Tolkein only states that it drew itself to a great height. Also in earlier revisions of LOTR Tolkein had the Balrog at the size of a man though I expect the final Balrog in his mind was considerably larger.

Also the Balrogs were not from the underworld. They were originally Maiar which are spirits who serve the Valar or Pantheonic Gods of Middle-Earth. They were corrupted by Morgoth. Sauron was also a corrupted Maiar. Other Maiar included Gandalf and Saruman.

Also the Balrog have been defeated by the lesser races before. At the Fall of Gondolin the Elf Lord Ecthelion defeated Gothmog the Lord of Balrogs and another Elf Glorfindel defeated a second Balrog. Of course the Elves in those days were much more powerful than the Third Age Elves and it is true that both lost their lives while fighting the Balrogs.

Anyway I just wanted to clear up some information on the Balrogs. You can find the information in the Silmarillion which is both a great book and a difficult read. Most people I know who have tried to read it say it bored them to death!

[RobWeaver]

As a great Tolkien fan, I have to admit that I don't care for the Silmarillion. While full of information, it is just too hard a read to be enjoyable. I get more distance from the Appendices at the end of LotR.

I think this balrog has real movement problems. The LotR game maps for which it was developed have hexes that are mostly on the same height. HS exagerates even small height differences. How often do you find 9 hexes on the same level on a map? Sure the balrog can fly, but it can't land because there's no place to set down!

[Rhydderch]

As a great Tolkien fan, I have to admit that I don't care for the Silmarillion. While full of information, it is just too hard a read to be enjoyable. I get more distance from the Appendices at the end of LotR.

I consider the very unreadability (is that a word?) of the Silmarillion to be its greatest achievement. Tolkein created his own mythological-religious text for Middle-Earth complete with the difficult to read language. I think the style was very intentional because not only does it make it hard to read but I expect it made it INCREDIBLY difficult to write! And I've tried so I would know =P

I think this balrog has real movement problems. The LotR game maps for which it was developed have hexes that are mostly on the same height. HS exagerates even small height differences. How often do you find 9 hexes on the same level on a map? Sure the balrog can fly, but it can't land because there's no place to set down!

I agree. Even 3 or 4 hex figures are difficult to incorporate into HS. I shudder to imagine what would happen if you introduced a 9 hex figure. He would probably fill your entire starting zone! Then again he might just comprise your entire army so I guess it could work out =P

[RobWeaver]

I consider the very unreadability (is that a word?) of the Silmarillion to be its greatest achievement. Tolkein created his own mythological-religious text for Middle-Earth complete with the difficult to read language. I think the style was very intentional because not only does it make it hard to read but I expect it made it INCREDIBLY difficult to write! And I've tried so I would know =P
I agree. Even 3 or 4 hex figures are difficult to incorporate into HS. I shudder to imagine what would happen if you introduced a 9 hex figure. He would probably fill your entire starting zone! Then again he might just comprise your entire army so I guess it could work out =P
The style is definitely intentional, and imitates the style of the Bible, as well as other ancient materials with which Tolkien was very familiar. I guess I need a "New Living Translation" Silmarillion, with simple language, reading plan and sidebar commentary!

I don't really see the attraction for uber-huge figures in games like HS, MK, LotR, etc. They're so big that you don't really move them around the board, do you? They seem more like terrain that fights back. Even when you consider putting several sets or maps together, there's still a point where maneuvre is over and you're settled into fighting it out. Something that big can pretty much stay in your starting area and phone in its combat. Then there's the cost issue - in game costs, that stuff must be outrageous! Unless you like to recreate "Ogre" in your games, I really can't see much scope for them. I played a small game in which one player had a number of figs, and the other only had one: Charos. It was an exciting game, in part because of the size of the figures. I can picture that but not when one set of figures skews scale so dramatically.

[Rhydderch]

The style is definitely intentional, and imitates the style of the Bible, as well as other ancient materials with which Tolkien was very familiar. I guess I need a "New Living Translation" Silmarillion, with simple language, reading plan and sidebar commentary!

The Silmarillion definitely imitates the Bible. Good way to put it. I would also like a New Living Translation. Then other people would read it and I would not feel the need to explain it anymore =P

I don't really see the attraction for uber-huge figures in games like HS, MK, LotR, etc. They're so big that you don't really move them around the board, do you? They seem more like terrain that fights back. Even when you consider putting several sets or maps together, there's still a point where maneuvre is over and you're settled into fighting it out. Something that big can pretty much stay in your starting area and phone in its combat. Then there's the cost issue - in game costs, that stuff must be outrageous! Unless you like to recreate "Ogre" in your games, I really can't see much scope for them. I played a small game in which one player had a number of figs, and the other only had one: Charos. It was an exciting game, in part because of the size of the figures. I can picture that but not when one set of figures skews scale so dramatically.

Yeah bigger is better definitely does not apply to HS. It is no fun when your GIANT piece cannot find any flat land to sit on! I think 3-4 hexes is the upper limit of what I would play with. That allows for a good range of siege weapons, tanks and really big customs. Even then movement becomes tricky but at least it is not impossible! =P

[Nooblar]

Wow, Rhydderch, that's quite an accomplishment to finish Silmarillion! I got about 1/4 the way through then I gave up. It simply wasn't doing it for me; I agree with the Appendicies of LotR being an easier and more fun read.

I like the Balrog idea, and as a devoted (if not hardcore) Tolkien fan I would like to recreate a couple different scenes from the books (not the movies). The Balrog amongst them. Do you think there is a way to get a Balrog on a 2-hex base?

[reapersaurus]

I don't really see the attraction for uber-huge figures in games like HS, MK, LotR, etc. They're so big that you don't really move them around the board, do you? They seem more like terrain that fights back.:lol:
What a great line!

Personally, I find it disappointing that the choice to have static, unflexible bases in HS makes large based figures practically unplayable. :(

The concept of large figures is solid, they could be a lof of fun, and even carefully balanced... but oh yeah - they all have to be on the same level. :roll:

Instant no go. :(

[Rhydderch]

Wow, Rhydderch, that's quite an accomplishment to finish Silmarillion! I got about 1/4 the way through then I gave up. It simply wasn't doing it for me; I agree with the Appendicies of LotR being an easier and more fun read.

I like the Balrog idea, and as a devoted (if not hardcore) Tolkien fan I would like to recreate a couple different scenes from the books (not the movies). The Balrog amongst them. Do you think there is a way to get a Balrog on a 2-hex base?

Depends on the Balrog :P As long as you can find a figure which will fit on a 2 hex base you will be ok. You could also take Theats' suggestion and paint Nilheim with red and black.

[toddrew]

The concept of large figures is solid, they could be a lof of fun, and even carefully balanced... but oh yeah - they all have to be on the same level. :roll:

Instant no go. :(

Has anyone adapted or created an articulated figure for HS? Might be a good solution for the uber-huge figures that some may want to try out in the game.

[Rhydderch]

The concept of large figures is solid, they could be a lof of fun, and even carefully balanced... but oh yeah - they all have to be on the same level. :roll:

Instant no go. :(

Has anyone adapted or created an articulated figure for HS? Might be a good solution for the uber-huge figures that some may want to try out in the game.

Some people have tried to design rules for a caterpillar-based figure where each single base was one hex. I do not know if the thread can be found here though. It was made a long time ago.

[theats]

Actually the size of the Balrog is speculative because Tolkein only states that it drew itself to a great height. Also in earlier revisions of LOTR Tolkein had the Balrog at the size of a man though I expect the final Balrog in his mind was considerably larger.

Also the Balrogs were not from the underworld. They were originally Maiar which are spirits who serve the Valar or Pantheonic Gods of Middle-Earth. They were corrupted by Morgoth. Sauron was also a corrupted Maiar. Other Maiar included Gandalf and Saruman.

Also the Balrog have been defeated by the lesser races before. At the Fall of Gondolin the Elf Lord Ecthelion defeated Gothmog the Lord of Balrogs and another Elf Glorfindel defeated a second Balrog. Of course the Elves in those days were much more powerful than the Third Age Elves and it is true that both lost their lives while fighting the Balrogs.

Anyway I just wanted to clear up some information on the Balrogs. You can find the information in the Silmarillion which is both a great book and a difficult read. Most people I know who have tried to read it say it bored them to death!

duh, general knowledge :)

[reapersaurus]

The concept of large figures is solid, they could be a lof of fun, and even carefully balanced... but oh yeah - they all have to be on the same level. :roll:

Instant no go. :(

Has anyone adapted or created an articulated figure for HS? Might be a good solution for the uber-huge figures that some may want to try out in the game.I'm leaning towards adopting a House Rule that all 2-base figures can end their move on unequal elevations. Also that they can freely turn, like single-figures can.

I see no game benefit (other than the figures may move/slide a bit) to preventing them from doing so. They can choose which elevation they want to be on for height bonuses, etc.
Being big should be a benefit in combat, not a liability - having the simplistic, immobile-base rule was solely put in for simplicity's 8-12 year-old's sake, not for game benefit to people that could handle multi-elevation large figures.

I have a Giant Snake figure that can go on multiple levels (as a snake should). My monstrous Oliphaunt didn't have a base, in fact - just 4 legs that heroes could actually go underneath and attack from below. So he could handle some differences in elevation.

[theats]

As long as you can find a figure which will fit on a 2 hex base you will be ok. You could also take Theats' suggestion and paint Nilheim with red and black.

m, a repaint of nilfiem, what this thread is all about.

[Nwojedi]

you know, you could make a 4 base figure with adjustable height on 2 hexes. do a standard 4 adjacent base. Make the two legs be standard two base. Have the each single base on each side, NOT connected to the main 2 base. Apply springs on both hexs that will allow the base to move up to two hexs high and low. This would give you some mobility with a big figure like this, plus it would be cool feature. Have his tail be movable and go up and down to accommodate the moving hex. and the front could be his arm, sword or fire. It could be done, and wouldn't be that difficult.

[Rhydderch]

you know, you could make a 4 base figure with adjustable height on 2 hexes. do a standard 4 adjacent base. Make the two legs be standard two base. Have the each single base on each side, NOT connected to the main 2 base. Apply springs on both hexs that will allow the base to move up to two hexs high and low. This would give you some mobility with a big figure like this, plus it would be cool feature. Have his tail be movable and go up and down to accommodate the moving hex. and the front could be his arm, sword or fire. It could be done, and wouldn't be that difficult.

Cool. Could you make me one and send it over? Thanks! :D :P :wink: