Major Q-9

[K/H_Addict]

There was a thread back at the HQ about his shoulders. The thoughts of rotating him was countered by his double-spcae base. I suggested transferring him to a DW9K base (will he fit?)

[Kenntak]

Well, if his cost was figured into him being a double hex figure, would that be a good thing to do?

[MacG]

We played him on the tundra map as the defender, switching sides.

Games 1 and 2 - allowed him LOS to anything as if he could switch.
He dominated the defense, shooting down anything that came at him, including Krav Maga, DW8K, Braxas, and Krug.

Games 3 and 4 - limited him to shoulder pad sighting. Having the glacier walls and pads limit his corridor of fire made him a lot less disgusting.

I think he needs to have the shoulderpad/not spinning limitation, never mind the extra struggle from being a two-hex base.

[Rodriquez]

personally I'd view him as being able to rotate his shoulders and head around...therefore his pads wouldna affect his LOS...which is the way it would work in real life....

cheers

[Sydcomebak]

This is the unit that forces me to simply beg for LoS and facing rules to be put into place that are equal for every unit.

[Grungebob]

I think they forgot to put eye holes in his shoulder pads for him to peek through.

[K/H_Addict]

i dont have Q9, so i dont really know what he looks like, or how to use him. I just know he has an effect that is really fun to say.


Does points affect single- or double-space bases? i thought that was based sheerly on size. If Q9 would fit on a single base, why not change him?

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Games 3 and 4 - limited him to shoulder pad sighting. Having the glacier walls and pads limit his corridor of fire made him a lot less disgusting.

I think he needs to have the shoulderpad/not spinning limitation, never mind the extra struggle from being a two-hex base.

Yes! The glaciers, trees, and shoulder pads made him less potent. But I believe the should pads and blocking his on LOS is very important for balance. Is his SA not the most fun thing to consider?

I'm very curious to hear anyone's views concerning when is it viable to do 9 (or at least some of the 9) single attack die rolls? Besides on Vipers or any figures with 2 defense?

On HSHQ someone wrote it might be good to roll single skulls - if you can get a skull - on minions as they're bound to come up blank on one of the many defense rolls Q9 could make them roll.

Would it be viable for Stealth Dodge figures? My son had Q9 last night and I took DW7000. We tried the 9 single attack die and 7K defended the skull WHEN it showed up.

[MacG]

Seven dice (stealthed) is a lot of dice. I have happily used the 1-at-a-time trick against Krav Maga (killing the one I wanted on the third die and then moving on to wound Braxas with two rolls of three dice) because they have only 3-dice stealth dodge.

3-dice stealth dodge has about a 30% chance to fail to get one shield.
7-dice stealth dodge has about a 6% chance to fail. Ugh. (8 and 9 dice drop to 4% and 3%. Not good odds.)

[Rÿchean]

UD got an official response form Hasbro stating that his shoulder pads could indeed block his LOS.

I think it all figures in. I don't think they gave him huge shoulder pads on a whim.

I just got him so I don't really know but he seem uber powerful; I have to believe the double space and large shoulder pads play into balancing him as a unit...

….but then again I drink Heroscape / Hasbro Kool-Aid on a daily basis.

[LilNewbie]

I'll post my feelings on the whole blocking LOS. Personally no figure should block his/her own LOS. These figs are just standing there but the units they represent wouldn't be like a statue but actively moving around. It just keeps the game simple and keeps the lame rule-lawyers at bay. Just my .02. I just think their ruling on units blocking their own LOS is going to more consternation than it's worth.

Newb.

[Kenntak]

I agree, I would not mind seeing advanced rules with line of sight determined as in wargames which ironically I find easier to apply than the present rule.

[Rÿchean]

I think this is where my gaming history comes into play. I have never played any other mini war-game, therefore, I freely accept the quirkiness of LOS as it pertains to Heroscape.

Do I agree it is somewhat cheesy to have shoulder pads block line of sight? Absolutely!!! Do I accept the ruling that Hasbro has made without question??? Absolutely!!!

[Finrod]

I think the ruling just adds to the flavor of the game. It cracks me up!

"Major Q9! Quick! Take out that knight!"
"Where?!"
"To your right!"
"Where?!!?!? I can't see a thing!"

"#%@! These shoulder pads were cool in concept...."

[GaryLASQ]

when HEH first mention the whole LOS thing with Q9 a while back, i took a closer look and thought...duh...doublespaced ranged figure with big bulky shoulders...of course! it was intentional ! and then started kicking myself for not noticing it right away when the sculpt was first revealed in early february.

very observant of HEH.

[TheRealQ]

I think they had to limit his LOS to prevent him from being too powerful. If they wouldn't have limited him then he may have cost more than Jotun, and face it, how many people want to put half of their points into one figure.

As far as shoulder pads affecting LOS in real life I find it very realistic. I can remember my shoulder pads affecting my peripheral vision when I played football and in Cold Steel combat I can remember how much the armor reduced my agility and ability to change facing. In both scenarios it was easy to be taken out by a flanking opponent.

[Oprime]

when HEH first mention the whole LOS thing with Q9 a while back, i took a closer look and thought...duh...doublespaced ranged figure with big bulky shoulders...of course! it was intentional ! and then started kicking myself for not noticing it right away when the sculpt was first revealed in early february.

very observant of HEH.

Yeah with the rules the way they are for movement then attack,
and with double spaced figs costing 1 point to turn around, it makes him balanced because hes powerful, but hes slow and can be flanked.

[Pilgrim]

That's a good point OP. In our game last week he definitely rocked once he got up on that mountain. The shoulder pads help bring balance to the Q9 force.

[StarSlayer]

The shoulder pads do look like they can be a real pain to vision. I can agree with that to a point, I will use it in the normal rules. But I still don't like that Mim blocks his own LOS, I still think that is a bogus rule. So far, Mim has not had a problem with LOS in our games. but I know some time it will.

[Oprime]

That's a good point OP. In our game last week he definitely rocked once he got up on that mountain. The shoulder pads help bring balance to the Q9 force.

Yeah he was like the front lines, covering a wide swath.
but once the enemies (Brunack and Guilty) got on his side they were able to advance on other units.

[ServantOfUtgar]

I'll post my feelings on the whole blocking LOS. Personally no figure should block his/her own LOS. These figs are just standing there but the units they represent wouldn't be like a statue but actively moving around. It just keeps the game simple and keeps the lame rule-lawyers at bay. Just my .02. I just think their ruling on units blocking their own LOS is going to more consternation than it's worth.

Newb.

Yeah, what he said. :D

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

The shoulder pads do look like they can be a real pain to vision. I can agree with that to a point, I will use it in the normal rules. But I still don't like that Mim blocks his own LOS, I still think that is a bogus rule. So far, Mim has not had a problem with LOS in our games. but I know some time it will.

I will not play that Mimring can block his own LOS. The diagram in the rules shows exactly where he can fire! There's no question about that.
Of course obstacles would stop the fire attack, but I don't think it's an issue for Mimring to see what he's attacking.

[GaryLASQ]

I will not play that Mimring can block his own LOS. The diagram in the rules shows exactly where he can fire! There's no question about that.

i have a question ;)

why should Mim's target point behave differently than the target point of other figs?

the diagram is showing the "reach" or "coverage" of his firelines. i don't feel the diagram clears up the issue with his LOS being blocked by his own body parts.

given the written rules that we have from Hasbro so far, that rear fireline of his is simply unusable without either a house rule or the suggestion from the designers at Hasbro to use the tip of a horn as a target point.

if i'm going to go with the idea that Q9's shoulders block his own LOS then to be consistent, shouldn't i do the same for Mimring?

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I will not play that Mimring can block his own LOS. The diagram in the rules shows exactly where he can fire! There's no question about that.

i have a question ;)

why should Mim's target point behave differently than the target point of other figs?

the diagram is showing the "reach" or "coverage" of his firelines. i don't feel the diagram clears up the issue with his LOS being blocked by his own body parts.

given the written rules that we have from Hasbro so far, that rear fireline of his is simply unusable without either a house rule or the suggestion from the designers at Hasbro to use the tip of a horn as a target point.

if i'm going to go with the idea that Q9's shoulders block his own LOS then to be consistent, shouldn't i do the same for Mimring?

Yes that makes sense, but from all the HS times I've played, Mimring has had a difficult time pulling off the special attack and hitting many figures.

This is just my experience with the dragon.

I think he's already at a disadvantage trying to land correctly to hit any figure in one of those avenues shown in the diagram anyway. I'll play his LOS is unaffected by his own wings, etc.

[Bobbo]

I think he's already at a disadvantage trying to land correctly to hit any figure in one of those avenues shown in the diagram anyway. I'll play his LOS is unaffected by his own wings, etc.
Yeah, we play that way also. We thought that what the LOS restriction on the special ability was to make sure that you didn't fireline a figure that was behind a ruin or something. Never in a million years would have guessed that a figure could block its own LOS.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I think he's already at a disadvantage trying to land correctly to hit any figure in one of those avenues shown in the diagram anyway. I'll play his LOS is unaffected by his own wings, etc.
Yeah, we play that way also. We thought that what the LOS restriction on the special ability was to make sure that you didn't fireline a figure that was behind a ruin or something. Never in a million years would have guessed that a figure could block its own LOS.

Will you still play that way with Mimring's SA, Bobbo?

I totally understand how ass-backward it would be to allow Mim to fire unheeded by his own blocked LOS and not allow Q9 to do the same, but just from my gaming group's experience, Mimring has a tough time pulling off Fire Line well and consistently.

The diagram shows where and how far he can fire, but aren't a couple of those avenues always blocked by his own wings? I think that is where I never had an issue with his LOS and his own body.

[Bobbo]

Will you still play that way with Mimring's SA, Bobbo?

Nope, we haven't yet. Then again, nobody drafts Mim anymore, so its almost a moot point.

Actually, we are really forgiving with the LOS issues that we run across. We never play that a figure can block its own LOS. It's just never come up in a game.

Also, I tend to think that checking LOS for the shoulderpads would be hard. How do you get behind Q-9's head to check if the shoulder pad is blocking? Wouldn't the other shoulderpad prevent you from seeing his head? I don't have the figure yet, so I really don't know.

[TheRealQ]

I have Mimring in my hand and I don't see how his wings could ever block his LOS unless there is a figure at an extreme elevation at 5 or 8. As far as shooting out his backside I have never needed to as it has never been a big deal turning him around. I still use Mimring quite a bit and have yet to have a LOS issue.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Will you still play that way with Mimring's SA, Bobbo?

Nope, we haven't yet. Then again, nobody drafts Mim anymore, so its almost a moot point.

Actually, we are really forgiving with the LOS issues that we run across. We never play that a figure can block its own LOS. It's just never come up in a game.

Also, I tend to think that checking LOS for the shoulderpads would be hard. How do you get behind Q-9's head to check if the shoulder pad is blocking? Wouldn't the other shoulderpad prevent you from seeing his head? I don't have the figure yet, so I really don't know.

We used Q9 last weekend. The shoulder pads do hinder how much he can see. Along with the trees, glaciers, and other obstacles on the field, it was tricky getting the Major to align properly to 'see' two Marrden Hounds.
I really wish I could've gotten both Wulsinu, but it just wasn't happening if I played that Q9 blocks his own LOS.

and We get behind or in front of his head to gauge LOS and yeah that can be tricky too.

I have Mimring in my hand and I don't see how his wings could ever block his LOS unless there is a figure at an extreme elevation at 5 or 8. As far as shooting out his backside I have never needed to as it has never been a big deal turning him around. I still use Mimring quite a bit and have yet to have a LOS issue.

Well that's reasurring. I need to look at my Mim figure tonight.

[morgonis]

was reading the FAQ on the heroscape.com looking for a different rules question and came across this.....


If a figure is not facing another figure that he is attacking, does he have line of sight?
Facing does not matter when determining Line of Sight. The best way to tell if your Attacker has a clear Line of Sight is to get behind its head and look at the targeted figure. If you can see any part of it from its head, you have a clear Line of Sight. The facing of the attacker's head does not matter.


ie: you can shoot/attack behind the fig, to the side of the fig, above the fig. repeat its direction its faceing doesnt matter, therefore the shoulders dont matter just like other random parts of a fig doesnt block thier LOS which is good to hear, would hate to have to check LOS for every single shot i make with a figure because his own shoulders, bow, gun, may be blocking his view of the target

[GaryLASQ]

yes, we understand the part about "facing doesn't matter". but that FAQ still doesn't address what happens when you get behind your figure's head and while trying to look at the opposing figure, your figure's own body part(s) block vision.

this whole debate does not apply to single-space figures because they can be adjusted (meaning rotated in place) during attack phase. however, it DOES apply to double-space figures because that can't be rotated. and Q-9 is a double-space figure.

anyhow, we already have our answer from Hasbro...his shoulders do indeed block his own LOS. there is nothing more to debate. house rule it if you don't like. so there! :)

[toddrew]

Different point/question about Q9's shoulders (or the left one anyway.) We just got RV in the mail (no in-store sightings yet :) ), and noticed the general symbols on his left shoulder armor/line-of-blocker. The large Vydar symbol we took to be an indication of his allegiance (a reasonable thing to do :) ), and the smaller symbols we took as 'notches on his gun' type markings, i.e., a record of figures destroyed. Anything to be drawn from the fact that there are 4 Jandar, 4 Utgar, 3 Ullar and no Einar on there? Anybody have theories to share?

[morgonis]

until I see it on the Offcial sties FAQ we plan to keep the shoulders as not able to block LOS, someone sent Hasbro a Email and got a hipshot response ie: eh, makes sense i spose lets do it this way...prolly without reading the rules or even thinking about it.

i mean think about it, ikeeping in mind that LOS is required to attack, all ya have to do to kill Q-9 is have a couple mellee guys come at him from the sides, the LOS rule some random email answereing guy at hasbro gave that you want to live by clearly states he couldnt see them through the shoulders thereby makeing him about to get trounced by people RIGHT NEXT to him that he couldnt see lol

take a good look at many of the other larger figures, almost all of them have a side you come attack them from that unless they turn they couldnt see ya with LOS.......im almost afraid of how many people will house rule that because of the Q-9 shoulders ruleing.

however me and the people i play with are keeping the original offical rule that prevents a figure from blocking its own LOS, in Q-9's case we assume he just tunred at the waist before fireing...we assume the dragons snake there heads around thier wings to attack people on thier hindquarters.....we assume Krug turns around to attack behind him...and all that is assumed wihtout physcally turning the figure, just like im sure most all the scapers play the same way, so why you want to commit to one figure suddenly haveing a new LOS rule that only applies to it...is just beyond me lol

[netherspirit]

The ruling in our FAQ that came from Hasbro.

Can Mimring block his own LOS? If he can't, then how can you determine LOS if he is blocking it. BTW: This is possible.
Official Ruling: When determining LOS for Mimring's FIRE LINE SPECIAL ATTACK and firing to the direct rear, you may use the tip of either long horn on his head as a targeting point. I know this is not in the rules. It will be eventually fixed, and in the rules. All parts of his body block LOS.

I don't see how Q9 would be any different....

[TheRealQ]

the original offical rule that prevents a figure from blocking its own LOS

I must be overlooking this in the rulebook. Can someone quote it and tell me what page it is on?

[morgonis]

The ruling in our FAQ that came from Hasbro.

Can Mimring block his own LOS? If he can't, then how can you determine LOS if he is blocking it. BTW: This is possible.
Official Ruling: When determining LOS for Mimring's FIRE LINE SPECIAL ATTACK and firing to the direct rear, you may use the tip of either long horn on his head as a targeting point. I know this is not in the rules. It will be eventually fixed, and in the rules. All parts of his body block LOS.

I don't see how Q9 would be any different....


Mimring right in the book that comes with each MS shows in detail which directions and what spaces his FIRE LINE SPECIAL ATTACK can hit....kinda baffled what the question was there that called for contacting Hasbro when they already had a ruleing lol

the original offical rule that prevents a figure from blocking its own LOS


I must be overlooking this in the rulebook. Can someone quote it and tell me what page it is on?

Heroscape.com under FAQ

[TheRealQ]

So you're saying there is no "original official rule" about figures in general? Good, I thought for a minute that I was missing something.

[brunakor]

Since the DW series was going down from 9K to 7K, why not start over and make a new line of robots? The Q series will be better than DW because they have more life and decent abilities. I'm not dissing DW, but suggesting that they make more Major Qs. WE have 9 and 10. Now how about 11? :D :wink:

[Shades fan]

Why bring this back out of curiosity.
But Q9 is perfect anyways this is one of his weakness to keep him in check.

[rdhight]

Different point/question about Q9's shoulders (or the left one anyway.) We just got RV in the mail (no in-store sightings yet :) ), and noticed the general symbols on his left shoulder armor/line-of-blocker. The large Vydar symbol we took to be an indication of his allegiance (a reasonable thing to do :) ), and the smaller symbols we took as 'notches on his gun' type markings, i.e., a record of figures destroyed. Anything to be drawn from the fact that there are 4 Jandar, 4 Utgar, 3 Ullar and no Einar on there? Anybody have theories to share?

It could be that Q9 likes Vydar units. I think I remember hearing that at least at one point, the fluff was depicting Einar as the next most evil general after Utgar. Maybe it still does for all I know. Alternately, maybe that Oriental-face emblem was unrecognizable when shrunk down so small.

Mimring right in the book that comes with each MS shows in detail which directions and what spaces his FIRE LINE SPECIAL ATTACK can hit....kinda baffled what the question was there that called for contacting Hasbro when they already had a ruleing lol

Mimring is not guaranteed to hit those spaces. He hits figures on those spaces if he has line of sight to them. Whether or not he can block his own LOS still matters.

[GaryLASQ]

Mimring right in the book that comes with each MS shows in detail which directions and what spaces his FIRE LINE SPECIAL ATTACK can hit....kinda baffled what the question was there that called for contacting Hasbro when they already had a ruleing lol
Mimring is not guaranteed to hit those spaces. He hits figures on those spaces if he has line of sight to them. Whether or not he can block his own LOS still matters.
Yes. And that rear fire line of Mimring is basically a design flaw. Using his eyes as targeting points, he can not see anything directly behind him. So the designers declared the tips of his horns as alternate targeting points for seeing along the rear fireline. (More appropriate than putting a targeting point on his a55 :wink: )

But with the new "free-flip" rule for double-space figures in the SotM rulebook, this whole issue about double-space figures blocking their own LOS is less of a problem.

And the jury is still out on exactly how much less of a problem it is...
Q9/Q10 free-flip during Attack Phase (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=12592&start=0)