ultradoug presents: bad gramer/spelling...and you! (oh bane)

[ultradoug]

Yes! Its time to talk/rant about what I really dislike doing. But, my goodfriend who is part Japanse sent me a great pm. I'll share it with the name cut out, but otherwise unedited:

AHHhh zooo ya! Like whatz da deal wit da peol all uptight about da lanugge! just cuss me do all sortz of cute wortds n such and dont spll em orwhatever and sometimes like i like 2 use da numbers or whatever i think its cute! its just languge lighn up geeze!!!! LOL!

for those of you who have now gone insain that was:

"What is the deal with people getting uptight about languge? Just because I use cute words and do not spell correctly, or sometimes use numbers because I think its cute! Its just a languge, lighten up gee! LOL!"

Ok. So I was like, oh boy, this topic again?! And then I thought about it, my friend knows the english languge, but is not english, when I try to talk Japanse, I do a semi-decent job, but I am still learning, I'm going to make errors, there is just no way around it. Futhermore, this friend wants to play a persona online. Plenty of people just do not "get' what that is, but if you've seen the "online persona" topic I had awhile ago, this might give you some insight to that.

Regardless, some people just get upset, like- in real life! Not just internet upset. And yes, there is a diferance. There blood boils whenever a typo comes up. The just loose there mind. There was this book called Pandas that eat shoots and leaves, all about people like this, I read three pages before settting it down, walking away baffled, I clearly do not see the problem.

I just can't spell very well. I know it. I don't care anymore. Its not an issue of going back to relearn how to spell at this point, although that might be something I'd do as part of school. I just don't care anymore! The languge we speek in real life does not require spelling, and goodness knows people do not use correct gramer when they talk!

I've lissioned to my freind here talk, and they really talk strange the same way they type. Replacing "the" with "da" sound, so why should they not type the same way?

I think spelling, taking the languge so serously in general is crazy. There is more to be worryed about in life then someone spelling something wrong, lighten up! Its just words. If you "know" what they said, did it matter that they spelled it wrong. Those that feel compled to correct every single word mispelled baffle me.

Of course, people will say, but - you look "better" more "busnesslike" people will "respect you" because I spell well? Well heck, if they are going to put spelling as a blockcade to liking me, then there loss.

I don't try to go out of my way to mispell things, it just happens. I spell the way I think it should be. If its wrong, correcting it will not help me, I'm still going to spell it that way (or whatever way) it sounded to me as I type it. I type like, about 85 something (? not sure) words per min, about the same speed as someone can talk, (give or take) sure, it would be great if I knew every single word by memersation but I do not.

Ok, now, off you all go, rant away and disagree or agree with me. Rember now, no derailment, I reserve derailment of this topic to myself only!

Lets go woot:

[CornPuff]

rock on UD.

If everyone spoke like your friend, I'd go crazy. I'm not the best wordsmith, but I appreciate it when people put a little effort into what they are typing. I generally don't talk to people online who speak in IM crazy talk. wenevr i c sum1 speek lik3 dat, im lik omgbbqwtf!!1

but I don't really care if you don't play by the rullz. Except for when you are completely insain, its easy to understand your posts, and thats what counts.

Literature, Business, and documents like the HS rules are very different from online banter, and do best without using the phrase 'LOL'.

[ultradoug]

what you kidding? My new compiny is so being called "LOL inc."

[RobWeaver]

IIRC - (How's that for a start?) There was a grammarician, a grammaticon, a gramma - a smart person who was interested in spelling and grammar :) - back in the 1700s who tried to simplify English spelling and rules to make it completely phonetic and easy to read. He wrote a book in his system and it was really wonderful and straighforward. Problem was no one read his book at the time and it slipped into obcurity, except for 2nd year English majors who had to take "History of the English Language"at private liberal arts schools. Does anybody else remember who this guy was?

[robaula]

what you kidding? My new compiny is so being called "LOL inc."

stalk stalk stalk

[Revdyer]

RobWeaver, are you thinking, perhaps, about Mr. Noah Webster? He wanted to reform the way Americans spelled in part to distinguish them from the British. He did not succeed very well with the project, you're right. But we do have "honor" instead of "honour" and "theater" rather than "theatre."

[ultradoug]

huh, cool insight, any reasion why alot of our words are borrowed from other languges? I know this will derail this topic somewhat- but.. in Japan they use english words to be "hip" in some songs/anime. Most americans learn spanish since we are close to mexico, what other languges incoraprate other words foren into there languge? for example I think Molecule is Greek? not sure.

[Tiberius]

I would guess because of the mixture of nationalities present and all the different cultures melting together. Everyone brings a little something extra and we incorporate that as a society.

[molson]

I don't even want to think about how many words from foreign languages have found their way into English (American or Crown)... Yes, UD, Molecule and Atom are both from the Greek.

I'm sure there are others, but Icelandic is the only language that I know of that does not incorporate cognates (Foreign terms accepted as terms) into the "mother" language.. For example, the Icelandic word for "television" is not "television", or anything like it; they use a sequence of existing Icelandic words that translates to (non-literal) "far-seeing box".

At the same time, and FWIW, you'd be surprised how many terms in HS come from Icelandic (which harkens back to, and actually is Old Norse) - let's start with "Valhalla"...

edited for readability (yes, I'm a bit of a grammarian... sorry).

[dra(gon)]

in german that is called denglish.
and that words are speciall-
i say for ex ampel drahtesel, draht - esel , english wire- donkey :shock:

what does that means? drahtesel is gram for fahrrad(englisch bike).

manny word are steal von englich and use in german exampel hotline(heisse leitung) here for is no german word.

it is the same with jp und english mix

[molson]

manny word are steal von englich and use in german exampel hotline(heisse leitung) here for is no german word.

So, in Deutschland, would you see "hotline", or "heisse leitung"?

In my German classes in HS (oh, so long ago, and not very strict), "hotline" certainly would have found its way into the conversation (as a cognate), and probably stayed there, if no equivalent term could be found.

[RobWeaver]

RobWeaver, are you thinking, perhaps, about Mr. Noah Webster? He wanted to reform the way Americans spelled in part to distinguish them from the British. He did not succeed very well with the project, you're right. But we do have "honor" instead of "honour" and "theater" rather than "theatre."
No - I think it was earlier than Webster. You notice that in US English we don't often say "an"before a word beginning with H, such as "an hoop" Our English cousin do this all the time, though.

[RobWeaver]

huh, cool insight, any reasion why alot of our words are borrowed from other languges? I know this will derail this topic somewhat- but.. in Japan they use english words to be "hip" in some songs/anime. Most americans learn spanish since we are close to mexico, what other languges incoraprate other words foren into there languge? for example I think Molecule is Greek? not sure.

English is the end result of a slow blending of Medieval Norman French and Anglo-Saxon. By the 12th century, the French were already claiming that the English were incomprehensible. By the 14th, you get Chaucer and he's readable if you take your time, and read out loud. English lacked vocabulary to discuss philosophy, theology and science, though. In the 1600's, English writers tried to make the language sound better to Continental European ears by dressing it up with loan-words from Latin and Greek. They were called the "Latinizers." Their effect was to give English words like "molecule" and "pulchritude." Specific vocations have loaned words to English over time, ie most cowboy terms are Spanish, but at this point, English is the linga franca of the world and more languages are going to borrow from it than it is going to borrow from them.

[dra(gon)]

the best way in germay is the word "handy" handy is definitiv a english word but americans call this simpel mobil (cellphone).

buw damm all american nation fathers :twisted: 1 vote and you all speak german. that hurts soclose . but no they coose enfglish the launguge of their enemies.

[Revdyer]

RobWeaver, are you thinking, perhaps, about Mr. Noah Webster? He wanted to reform the way Americans spelled in part to distinguish them from the British. He did not succeed very well with the project, you're right. But we do have "honor" instead of "honour" and "theater" rather than "theatre."
No - I think it was earlier than Webster. You notice that in US English we don't often say "an"before a word beginning with H, such as "an hoop" Our English cousin do this all the time, though.

But the "an hoop" thing is an entirely different issue from spelling reform. It has to do with the voicing of the "h" sound and the class structure of British and, therefore, American English.

(sorry...English Linguistics major and retired English professor here)

But Robweaver, this is probably a more technical discussion that appropriate for this site. PM me if you want to continue a more detailed discussion of the topic.

[DoesntCompute]

If I have to work to read your post, I'm going to skim it at best and ignore it at worst. Spell as badly as you wish. I don't care. Just don't expect me to spend time to read what you didn't spend time to write.

[LilNewbie]

UD,

This is not a slam or flame but my viewpoint on why spelling/grammar is important.

1. Our ability to express our thoughts in written form separates us from other animals.
2. How many times have you read how someone hasn't read your posts due to having a difficult time understanding what pint you are trying to express? Clear communication requires clear and correct writing style.
3. Online personas sounds like an excuse rather than a reason.
4. No matter what people say...how you express yourself in written form is how people will come to view who you are especially in an aspect such as the Internet where the only aspect we get to see is the written word from a person (in most cases.) People always say they don't care what others think of them...I say bunk. Humans are a social being and everyone takes some consideration of what others think about them. It's ingrained in our p s y c h e. Some do care about it more than others but it is still there no matter how much a person denies they don't care.

I'm not a spelling or grammar freak at all but to totally not care about it is doing yourself a disservice.

Just my .02.

;)

Newb.

[AgentX-127]

what you kidding? My new compiny is so being called "LOL inc."
Somebody has beat you to it:
http://www.lolbiz.com/lolbiz/index.jsp

[GaryLASQ]

i think we should all spell with this alphabet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/IPA_chart_2005.png

[Revdyer]

Newb.
I appreciate your moderate position. I am by no means a transformational grammarian (in fact, I don't think there are many of those left these days).

The people whose writing/posting is so far from the norm of standard English (whatever the heck that might be) that it causes me extra work (mentally) to figure out what they might be saying do lose my attention and respect.

Those whose slang is beyond me, I either try to catch up with (if they are a mainstream flow) or ignore (if they are idiosyncratic backwaters).

I love Joyce, whose Irish-English takes lots of work. I am willing to do the work because I value the intelligence behind his odd language, just as I am willing to work to read Homer in his odd Greek.

But if you're just posting a message that says nothing more than "screw you!" in very odd language. I'm not willing to expend the effort to follow such difficult constructions.

So, for me, the end of the discussion is whether your thoughts, ideas, concepts, visions, are worth something to me. If they are, then you are allowed to use unusual language, even extravagant language. I might even call it "poetic." But if you are just saying the same old dreck, then, at the very least, say it well and in standard English.

For our friends who speak other languages. We understand how difficult English is. We struggle with your native tongues. Do your best. We will honor and respect your efforts.

Oh, I'm an old fart.

[Detrimentalman]

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?


Always found that very cool

[ultradoug]

wow I could read that. but that phonentic alphabet made me want to destory something. @_@;

Theres also the the fact that you will offen skip over a word when used twice. I just said "the" twice, but most people will not see the second "the" untill you mention it.

(I recall there was a test on this where one reads the sentence aloud)

[CornPuff]

awesome. I just failed both D-Mans and UDs tests. I did notice something was up with D-man's post about halfway through.

I've passed those before, but this time I didn't know I was being tested :P

[robaula]

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?


Always found that very cool

Thats really clever... I read through it without a problem, which surprised me somewhat. May I have a go?

Hroeacspe is rlealy good fun to paly bcaeuse tehre is iftinine sopce for ceartnig sggginalrety gnrad lasacdpnes on wchih to hsot tulry grgaataunn eipc bttaels.

That one should seem a bit harder - used longer words :)

[Gambit]

dos my bad speling qualify for whatevr your doing?

[Revdyer]

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisl

Good, years old, though; but good.

[jtserick]

[b] But we do have "honor" instead of "honour" and "theater" rather than "theatre."

Except for those of us active in the "theatre" ':)'

[Revdyer]

Agreed, jstserick. There is still "inside" and "outside" language around that spelling.

[robaula]

Agreed, jstserick. There is still "inside" and "outside" language around that spelling.

Blimey :shock: I've just spent longer than I should have trying to figure out what you meant by "jstserick", thinking you had scrambled some letters in a word, before realising that its someones username... doh... :oops:

[molson]

Agreed, jstserick. There is still "inside" and "outside" language around that spelling.
Absolutely. As an actual, honest-to-gosh paid actor (in a former life), I worked in the Theatre. If I wanted to see Braveheart, I went to the Theater.

Yes, "the Theatre" is correct versus "a Theatre" - the former refers to the Craft, the latter is a singular building.

(gets off soapbox and returns to incoherent mumbling)

[Gambit]

a persan i know speled college wrong on his college apllication

[RobWeaver]

I used to spell "college"c-o-l-l-e-D-g-e". After all it rhymes with "Knowledge..."

[ultradoug]

I like your logic Rob!

[robaula]

I used to spell "college"c-o-l-l-e-D-g-e". After all it rhymes with "Knowledge..."

Couldnt that work the other way round as well? you could have said that you used to spell knowledge "k n ow l e g e" because it rhymes with college

[Agent Minivann]

I used to spell "college"c-o-l-l-e-D-g-e". After all it rhymes with "Knowledge..."

There is a local machine shop called Colledge. We used to joke that the maintenance manager thinks college is a machine shop in Utah. Sadly, it wasn't far from the truth.

[Revdyer]

When my older daughter was young, she spelled "notice" as "knowtice" because, she reasoned, when you notice something you come to know what it is. She probably got this wisdom from her father who spelled "of" as "ove," because of words like "love" and "oven."

[robaula]

pretty cool story, rev. When my daughter gets older (shes 2 now) I'm sure to have lots of similar situations... looking forward to it!

[Detrimentalman]

Thats really clever... I read through it without a problem, which surprised me somewhat. May I have a go?

Hroeacspe is rlealy good fun to paly bcaeuse tehre is iftinine sopce for ceartnig sggginalrety gnrad lasacdpnes on wchih to hsot tulry grgaataunn eipc bttaels.

That one should seem a bit harder - used longer words :)

Well that and you have to remember all the letters of the word must be there and correct for instance spoce-space, but it seemed fine to me. The one that broke the flow for me was "Sggginalrety". Is that spelled right or did you mean singularly?

awesome. I just failed both D-Mans and UDs tests. I did notice something was up with D-man's post about halfway through
Well if you were to pass them then wouldn't your brain work differently then most people? Congrats, your normal =)

[RobWeaver]

I used to spell "college"c-o-l-l-e-D-g-e". After all it rhymes with "Knowledge..."

Couldnt that work the other way round as well? you could have said that you used to spell knowledge "k n ow l e g e" because it rhymes with college

Yeah, but that's the way that I tried to remember it. Note to self: make sure your mnemonic device is correct before you use it to burn a factoid into your brain.

[robaula]

Well that and you have to remember all the letters of the word must be there and correct for instance spoce-space, but it seemed fine to me. The one that broke the flow for me was "Sggginalrety". Is that spelled right or did you mean singularly?

yep, I meant sgginalrety. Believe me, if I didnt know what it was, then I wouldnt have a clue :D It is a proper word though. Staggeringly...

[Gambit]

colledge, coolage, calodge cologe collage, collog, colloj, callage? ahhhh which ones right?!??!

and sgggggggggggggggggermelty or whatever?!?! does that that have soming to do with a melting siniture?! :blowup: :explode: :excited: :confused:

[NiteRaider]

None.

[Gambit]

what about the sgggggggggggggggmelty thing?! what is that suppoed to mean?!

[Detrimentalman]

Staggeringly
*smacks forehead* Rarely ever see the adverb version hehe the -ly through me off.

[robaula]

what about the sgggggggggggggggmelty thing?! what is that suppoed to mean?!

what the heck are you on about, Gambit? :shock:

[Gambit]

this

yep, I meant sgginalrety. Believe me, if I didnt know what it was, then I wouldnt have a clue :D It is a proper word though. Staggeringly...

[robaula]

sgginalrety = staggeringly with letters muddled up.

I dont know what the sgggggggggggggggmelty thing you mentioned is...

:-)

[Gambit]

gee, well thanks for telling me? :roll:

[robaula]

you're welcome gabmit :lol: