Can Saylind summon herself? Answered 8-8-2006

[CornPuff]

So can saylind summon herself? If so, she could sometimes move an extra space and disengage without taking attacks.

Has hasbro answered this one?

Edit: The answer is "no." look to page 3 of this thread for the goods.

[netherspirit]

So can saylind summon herself? If so, she could sometimes move an extra space and disengage without taking attacks.

Has hasbro answered this one?

I would say no because you have to put the summoned figure adjacent to her. She can't be adjacent to herself.

[Oprime]

SURE..if you had Two of her on your team.

but alas, you cannot...sigh.

[UranusPChicago]

So can saylind summon herself?

I think any psychologist would call that the first stages of schizophrenia...

[K/H_Addict]

how would she be able to move an extra space? i dont get that....

[netherspirit]

how would she be able to move an extra space? i dont get that....

Basically, like this.

Saylind places the summoned figure adjacent to her. So you summon herself and place her one space forward (adjacent to the space she was on).

But since the figure has to be adjacent to her and she can't be adjacent to herself, it doesn't work. Correction, it shouldn't work...

[K/H_Addict]

But since the figure has to be adjacent to her and she can't be adjacent to herself, it doesn't work. Correction, it shouldn't work...


thats why i figured she wouldnt be able to move an extra space, because after summoning herself, there would be no saylind to be adjacent to, so she would be lost in an infinite void of nothingness.

[LilNewbie]

She could summon herself but due to Time-Space continuity she would end up next to herself and Time and Space just don't like being screwed with and they would eventually catch on and slap the person making her summon herself.

Yeah, Time and Space are like that. They have no sense of humour...except when it comes to llamas...they think llamas are hilarious. :D



Newb.

[K/H_Addict]

YAY LLAMA!


i been sneezed on by a llama. it was ewwey and chunky....gross








:spam:

[DEATHWALKER 1970]

UranusPChicago...
Are you a Kirby fan? Or is it just Destroyer Duck you fancy? Or just that drawing?
And by the way, Saylind summoning herself seems a bit too creative!

[Agent Minivann]

She could summon herself but due to Time-Space continuity she would end up next to herself and Time and Space just don't like being screwed with and they would eventually catch on and slap the person making her summon herself.

Yeah, Time and Space are like that. They have no sense of humour...except when it comes to llamas...they think llamas are hilarious. :D



Newb.

If we play with the "physics" rules from the movie Timecop, I say it can be done. Then place a gory body marker on the two tiles.

[UranusPChicago]

UranusPChicago...
Are you a Kirby fan? Or is it just Destroyer Duck you fancy? Or just that drawing?
And by the way, Saylind summoning herself seems a bit too creative!

Good catch, my man! Destroyer Duck by way of Kirby by way of Howard the Duck. HTD comics and magazines, genius! HTD movie, horrific.

[UranusPChicago]

UranusPChicago...
Are you a Kirby fan? Or is it just Destroyer Duck you fancy? Or just that drawing?
And by the way, Saylind summoning herself seems a bit too creative!

Good catch, my man! Destroyer Duck by way of Kirby by way of Howard the Duck. HTD comics and magazines, genius! HTD movie, horrific.

[gorillanator]

I can see where you got that idea because on the card it says any card you control... and you control Saylind.

[Su_Nan]

SURE..if you had Two of her on your team.

but alas, you cannot...sigh.

Actually it can be done, but first your group has to allow Two Saylinds on opposing sides. Then go and mind shackle your opponents Saylind. And presto.

[Oprime]

SURE..if you had Two of her on your team.

but alas, you cannot...sigh.

Actually it can be done, but first your group has to allow Two Saylinds on opposing sides. Then go and mind shackle your opponents Saylind. And presto.

By George I think hes got it.

[sigmazero13]

And it would get even MORE interesting in 3+ player games where everyone has a Saylind, and Ne-Gok-Sa captures all the Saylinds :)

IDENTITY CRISIS! AIIEEE!

[OniX]

OH SNAP... I didnt realize Saylind was a chick...lol MY BAD.

[KeeperOfPeace]

LOL, I know how you feel. At first when my brother got her, I had to convince everyone that she was.

[Doc_Savage]

From the official website:

"Spear of Summoning
After moving and before attacking, choose any figure you control on the battlefield, then roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-8, nothing happens. If you roll a 9-20, move the chosen figure to any space adjacent to Saylind. If the summoned figure is engaged, the figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks."

I don't think that it is clear in the text that you can't move her. However, if asked, I'm sure that the designers did not intend for her to move herself and I would rule no.


"Flying
When counting spaces for Saylind's movement, ignore elevations. Saylind may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When Saylind starts to fly, if she is engaged she will take any leaving engagement attacks. "

If you read her flying it is clear she is female. If you don't, you could go either way....

[netherspirit]

From the official website:

"Spear of Summoning
After moving and before attacking, choose any figure you control on the battlefield, then roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-8, nothing happens. If you roll a 9-20, move the chosen figure to any space adjacent to Saylind. If the summoned figure is engaged, the figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks."

I don't think that it is clear in the text that you can't move her. However, if asked, I'm sure that the designers did not intend for her to move herself and I would rule no.


I think its pretty clear, that it can't be done, sure she can target herself but then she can't move herself because she would have to be adjacent to herself. How do you move a figure and keep it adjacent to itself? :)

[CornPuff]

Alright, 2 pages of discussion. I shall now present my formal opinion.

I realize how ridiculous the whole thing is, and that it probably goes against the creator's original intention. But, The game is how they write it, not as they 'intend'.

Can Saylind summon herself? To find out, lets take a look at a similar card, Johnny Shotgun Sullivan.

Johnny's Shotgun blast special attack uses adjacency rules that are similar to Saylind.

Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by the Shotgun Blast Special Attack.

The relevant question is, when do we choose which figures are affected by the special attack? The official answer is that you choose which figures are affected before you attack. So, if you shoot an Legionnaire, and it dies, the shotgun blast still affects the figures that were adjacent to the targeted Legionnaire.

So, the adjacent figures are chosen, and remembered, before action begins. If they were chosen after the targetted figure rolled defense and died, then the other figures would no longer be adajacent ( because the targeted figure is sitting on his army card).

Now, back to Saylind:

The relevant question is, when do we choose which spaces the chosen figure can move to? Just like with Shotgun Sullivan, I say you determine the parameters before resolving the action. IE, you pick the figure and the destination before resolving the move (summon) action.

See the similarity? Its all about when you pick the parameters. Are the actions atomic, or do you do a little action, then pick more parameters?
In the Saylind case, I suspect you should choose all parameters (the 'chosen figure' and the target hex) and then execute(summon). Just like Sullivan chooses all affected figures, then executes.

Saylind can't self summon, because once she is summoned, there are no adjacent spaces for saylind to move to. Saylind cant be adjacent to Saylind.

Yup, I agree with you guys, Saylind can't be summoned to a space that is adjacent to Saylind, but Saylind can be summoned to a space that was adjacent to Saylind. Just like Shotgun sullivan doesn't affect figures that are adjacent to his target, he affects figures that were adjacent to his target.

I say if Saylind can't summon herself there needs to be a change in the official rules, not just a clarification.

it shouldn't work...
I agree nether, but I just can't help myself when it comes to rules loopholes. :twisted:

Thanks for reading. If you got bored halfway through, at least you get this dancing banana :banana:

[netherspirit]

I think comparing it to Shotty Johnny doesn't really work in this case. Because technically the figures are all being affected at the same time, and you could choose to roll attack dice for one of the adjacent figures before shooting the targeted figure.

Plus it recognizes right away that "Okay I am shooting this guy, but I also have to shoot these other two guys."

I just don't think the comparison works. :P

[CornPuff]

Who decides what order the adjacent figures get hit when Deathwalker uses is Explosion Special Attack?
The target always rolls defense first. Then the attacker chooses the order in which the other figures are hit.
They didn't have shotgun sullivan, but since the wording on both cards is the same, I have no reason to believe it works differently.

[netherspirit]

I stand corrected about choosing one of the adjacent figures first.

I still don't think you can move Saylind with her summoning power.

[sigmazero13]

I agree with netherspirit, that the two abilities, while they have SIMILAR wording, they are NOT the same.

For the Spear of Summoning, you are moving figure X next to Saylind. It doesn't say to choose a space, then move. As such, when you pick up Saylind to move her, there is no longer any space to move her to.

The Shotgun Blast, as netherspirit points out, is a SIMULTANEOUS affect. Before you even roll your attack, you know who is going to be affected; all of them will be taking defense rolls from it. I would argue that THIS is decided before you even make the die rolls at all. And thus, since you know who is going to be affected at that point, it doesn't matter what happens to any individual figure. I think the key to this is the fact that you are making only ONE die roll for the entire attack, and that same roll affects all the figures; and the die roll in this case is made before any of the figures even roll for defense, and thus before any of them die.

I think the difference is the subtle sequence issues.

As such, I would argue that the loophole CornPuff is using could be closed by a strict interpretation of what the rules say, and how they are applied in specific :)

[CornPuff]

Alright! Here is the official answer to my slightly asinine question. I hope this answer can help us resolve future debates involving adjacency.

Response (Chris) 08/08/2006 09:56 AM
Hi [CornPuff],

Thank you for contacting Hasbro previously with your question on Heroscape! I sincerely apologize for the delay in my response, but I now have an official answer to your question.

To refresh your memory, your pending question was in regards to Saylind, and the possibility of Summoning herself.

1. Can Saylind use her Spear of Summoning to summon herself?
A: No. Saylind, and her Spear of Summoning would need to stay on the board in order to determine adjacency with the newly summoned figure. Saylind cannot summon herself.

If there is anything else I can help you with, or if you have any further game play questions, please visit www.hasbro.com or respond to this e-mail.

edit: Name removed to protect the guilty :twisted:

[ninthdoc]

cornpuff, I'll assume from you edit in your first post the the "Yes!" is because you got a response from Hasbro. However, it reads like the answer to the question is "Yes" which does not appear to be the case. Just a casual observation. :wink:

[CornPuff]

oops :oops:
The first post is more clear now

[ninthdoc]

Thanks, man, not baggin' on ya, just was surprised to see the answer after reading the initial post. Thanks.