Deathreavers discussion

[geddy lifeson]

Forgive me if this question relates to another that may have been posted before in the past but here is a situation that came up with these guys.

With scatter, you can move two after rolling defence dice against a normal attack. If the attacker rolls zero skulls, does this entitle the defender to roll defense and therefore move his little rats?

[Turtleboy]

Yes

[Joah]

With scatter, you can move two after rolling defence dice against a normal attack. If the attacker rolls zero skulls, does this entitle the defender to roll defense and therefore move his little rats?

I think the key here is after rolling defense dice against a normal attack.

If they don't roll any skulls, you don't roll defense.

I don't at least.

[gorillanator]

With scatter, you can move two after rolling defence dice against a normal attack. If the attacker rolls zero skulls, does this entitle the defender to roll defense and therefore move his little rats?

I think the key here is after rolling defense dice against a normal attack.

If they don't roll any skulls, you don't roll defense.

I don't at least.

You don't roll any defense with your samurai after your opponent whiffs an attack roll?

[reapersaurus]

yeah, this one's pretty straightforward.
the rules state the order of an attack - it doesn;t SAY that you don;t get to roll defense when there are zero skulls rolled, so thye Reavers can scatter on a whiffed attack just fine.

Absoultely zero rules support to suggest they can't.

[Joah]

Yep. I'm wrong. :oops:

[fejkl]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.

Edit: I know their card says "up to four spaces" for their Scatter abililty, but what if they start and end the Scatter on a road? Would they get to move the extra 3 spaces?

[thehandofzarquon]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.Indeed, not to mention that at 40 points, you can get an awful lot of the damn things. Sure, they don't have great attack, but neither do the Arrow Gruts :P.

[geddy lifeson]

They really are a cool little unit to use. I noticed the rules stated that the attacker rolls first, but it doesn't mention anything about not rolling def if the attacker whiffs. I was originally thinking that you wouldn't get to scatter, but in using the same reasoning as gorillinator with the samurai, it makes sense.

[countblah]

You can roll defense dice when an attacker rolls 0 skulls. Most of us just don't bother, because it's faster that way. However, this is an occasion where you would probably want to. That and the samurai. And Charos.

[LilNewbie]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.

Edit: I know their card says "up to four spaces" for their Scatter abililty, but what if they start and end the Scatter on a road? Would they get to move the extra 3 spaces?

Move Bond (G'Nators from the Nakita) and any ability that gives a move like the Reavers is not modified by a glyph or road bonus. Just think of it as a Special Move and just like Special Attacks aren't modified.

Newb.

[thehandofzarquon]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.

Edit: I know their card says "up to four spaces" for their Scatter abililty, but what if they start and end the Scatter on a road? Would they get to move the extra 3 spaces?

Move Bond (G'Nators from the Nakita) and any ability that gives a move like the Reavers is not modified by a glyph or road bonus. Just think of it as a Special Move and just like Special Attacks aren't modified.

Newb.I'm pretty sure this is covered in the FAQ because of the Monk's Stealth Leap. Or a email from Hasbro. I swear I saw something about this before... *scratches head

[Thor]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.Indeed, not to mention that at 40 points, you can get an awful lot of the darn things. Sure, they don't have great attack, but neither do the Arrow Gruts :P.
Of course the reavers arn't ranged (making it that much harder the gain extra attack from height), and they don't have bonding (and bonding with a unit that increases their attack and defense by 1 mind you). Then again I guess their purpose isn't really to kill enemy units so much as it is to tie them up in engagment eh?

[Hahma]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.Indeed, not to mention that at 40 points, you can get an awful lot of the darn things. Sure, they don't have great attack, but neither do the Arrow Gruts :P.
Of course the reavers arn't ranged (making it that much harder the gain extra attack from height), and they don't have bonding (and bonding with a unit that increases their attack and defense by 1 mind you). Then again I guess their purpose isn't really to kill enemy units so much as it is to tie them up in engagment eh?

They could be used to charge your opponents' ranged units and force them to waste attacks on them or face engagement. For only 80pts, you can throw 8 of those guys at your opponent and if they cause enough distraction for your other units to either get height/glyphs or some other objective, then they would be well worth it. Though it would be huge to have a hero that has a movement bond with them.

[Thor]

Ya, their attack blows but they seem like they are going to make GREAT units to tie up enemy units. If you are playing against the Reavers you either let them get adjacent to you or you try to shoot at the Reavers as they are advancing, in which case the other Reavers not targeted can advance even quicker. It's a lose/lose situation. The only saving grace is the Reavers arn't too big of threat once they are adjacent. Of course, the same can't be said for any other unit that might advance once the Reavers have your units tied up.

[Lancewholelot]

Not only are they good for engaging foes but also for holding glyphs. If another deathreaver is within four spaces of a slain glyph holding deathreaver then the former can move on to the glyph immediately after the failed defence of the later.

[AmishBurrito]

Not only are they good for engaging foes but also for holding glyphs. If another deathreaver is within four spaces of a slain glyph holding deathreaver then the former can move on to the glyph immediately after the failed defence of the later.

good idea, i cant wait to play with the reavers!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

How many of us will be shooting our own Reavers to get that Scatter ability going a lot sooner or when convenient? I'm going to need to play them (a whole bunch too) to see what I think of this tactic. It sounds fun and they're definitely going to be a hoot to play. Lots of options - especially with those glyphs!
Btw G-L, thanks for starting a Deathreavers thread.

[Lancewholelot]

How many of us will be shooting our own Reavers to get that Scatter ability going a lot sooner or when convenient?

I believe that the official rules do not allow you to target your own units. Yes?

[thehandofzarquon]

How many of us will be shooting our own Reavers to get that Scatter ability going a lot sooner or when convenient? I'm going to need to play them (a whole bunch too) to see what I think of this tactic. It sounds fun and they're definitely going to be a hoot to play. Lots of options - especially with those glyphs!
Btw G-L, thanks for starting a Deathreavers thread.

I believe that the official rules do not allow you to target your own units.Nope, you can attack your own units. However... your units cannot attack themselves... :P

[jaques]

How many of us will be shooting our own Reavers to get that Scatter ability going a lot sooner or when convenient? I'm going to need to play them (a whole bunch too) to see what I think of this tactic. It sounds fun and they're definitely going to be a hoot to play. Lots of options - especially with those glyphs!
Btw G-L, thanks for starting a Deathreavers thread.

I believe that the official rules do not allow you to target your own units.Nope, you can attack your own units. However... your units cannot attack themselves... :P

Do you mean my deathreaver figures can't attack each other? Or do you mean if I only have one deathreaver figure left, it can't attack itself?

[thehandofzarquon]

How many of us will be shooting our own Reavers to get that Scatter ability going a lot sooner or when convenient? I'm going to need to play them (a whole bunch too) to see what I think of this tactic. It sounds fun and they're definitely going to be a hoot to play. Lots of options - especially with those glyphs!
Btw G-L, thanks for starting a Deathreavers thread.

I believe that the official rules do not allow you to target your own units.Nope, you can attack your own units. However... your units cannot attack themselves... :P

Do you mean my deathreaver figures can't attack each other? Or do you mean if I only have one deathreaver figure left, it can't attack itself?A unit can't attack itself, but it can attack other units, friendly or no.

[geddy lifeson]

Btw G-L, thanks for starting a Deathreavers thread.

I basically tried all the new units with a few friends and these are some of the ones I wanted to try and didn't get to. They seem really usefull and at first I was mad about whiffing on my atk and having my opponent roll def and move them little buggers, now I so want to use these guys. I ahve seen some good ideas on them so far.

[gamjuven]

I have played with the deathreavers and have targetted them to trigger the scatter ability and it has worked every time. I used the gladiatron ad blastatron army with 2 sets of reavers. It's pretty sweet and entertaining. They tie up units quite nicely. Almost completely worthless otherwise. i haven't had a chance to play them on a map with a glyph, (that would be awesome).

I can't wait until I get another set of gladiatrons and another set of blastatrons so I can have blastatrons x2, gladiatrons x3, and one set of reavers for a 400 pt army. It;s gonna be sweet. It does alright now but when I lose a blastatron it just sucks.

Bottom line, the reavers are highly entertaining to play with. They're so compact and cute. Gotta love em. I can't even get angry when they get annihilated.

[jcb231]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.

Edit: I know their card says "up to four spaces" for their Scatter abililty, but what if they start and end the Scatter on a road? Would they get to move the extra 3 spaces?

Move Bond (G'Nators from the Nakita) and any ability that gives a move like the Reavers is not modified by a glyph or road bonus. Just think of it as a Special Move and just like Special Attacks aren't modified.

Newb.

I tend to agree with you but do you have some sort of backup for this claim? Or is this just your opinion?

[fejkl]

Another thing I like about them is that they're gold. Most other soulborgs are grey or black, but their gold color REALLY makes them look sweet.

Yes, I know that the Snipers (AKA Buzz Lightyear) are white and blue.

The only downfall to Scatter is cyberclaws, which my wife had on two of them in that game.

EDIT: jcb, I just saw your post. I played them that way as well. I was simply posing the question to get some feedback either way. The card does state "up to 4 spaces". That tells me that nothing can modify it.

Although, being an Ability and not an Attack, it may very well be able to be modified. Consider Lodin. It aids the Special Ability of the Marrdens by increasing the D20 (as you know). What would be different than a move glyph or road aiding this Special Ability?

Now I'm not as sure. :?

[LilNewbie]

The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.

Edit: I know their card says "up to four spaces" for their Scatter abililty, but what if they start and end the Scatter on a road? Would they get to move the extra 3 spaces?

Move Bond (G'Nators from the Nakita) and any ability that gives a move like the Reavers is not modified by a glyph or road bonus. Just think of it as a Special Move and just like Special Attacks aren't modified.

Newb.

I tend to agree with you but do you have some sort of backup for this claim? Or is this just your opinion?

This was the word handed down at GenCon. :D

Newb.

[bunjee]

We'll want to get a list of "words from gencon" together in the Rules to Hasbro thread and send them in for documented verification to add to the FAQ.


So, I like the Warmadillos so much (got to see/handle them last night) that i'm actually going out to try and find some at my closest walmarts. Even though I have a big fat order coming from Sandra.

This is just wrong.

[Hendal]

I know I will be attacking one of my one rats once in a while, just to much fun not to if for no other reason, get 8 of them for 80 pts, you can spare one to get the lead to to advance 4 more. Love the glyph keeping ability they offer.
What they need is a type of champion like a swogg that bonds & would give them +1 attack and they would rock - OK they would have to be worth more points then!

[UranusPChicago]

Has any one thought about how a multi-unit attack (i.e. Shutgun Sullivan) against a swarm of Deathreavers will be handled?

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Has any one thought about how a multi-unit attack (i.e. Shutgun Sullivan) against a swarm of Deathreavers will be handled?

SPECIAL ATTACK! Reavers become hypnotized by the sight of flying buckshot!

[reapersaurus]

well, the Reaver power only is done against "normal attacks"...... so, they wouldn;t roll at all for a Shotgun Special Attack.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

well, the Reaver power only is done against "normal attacks"...... so, they wouldn;t roll at all for a Shotgun Special Attack.

They still roll their defense dice, but they won't be able to scatter.

[UranusPChicago]

I continue to amaze myself on a regular basis on my lack of reading skills... :oops:

[1shot_1kill]

The reavers are now my newest "annoyance" squad. I was playing over the weekend with my son and I found a couple of cubbie holes to put the reavers into that allowed them to move back out of range of melee attacks. I tortured his Raelin for like 3 turns while my samurai were advancing. I left 2 reavers at height somewhat in the open and would attack Raelin with the other 2. Then when one in the open was attacked I would move the 2 hiding back so Raelin couldn't reach them. It was great. Now I just need another squad of them.

[Nadi]

I just recently picked up all of the Wave 5 characters and decided to try out these little boogers. The only reason I got them, was because I only had 40 points left, and we only had one 30 point card (already taken) and two 25 point cards left. So, I thought I'd try them out and see how they were.

MAN... these things are awesome! (What's even more fun is when you end up killing someone with 1 skull. That's always something to gloat over. LOL.)

We play a map where you have to capture a glyph and bring it back to your 'spawn point.' (Which allows your characters to come back into play, if you roll high enough.) Well, an enemy unit can capture a spawn point if they are standing on it by the end of round three. (There are three teams playing.) I took these little guys out one turn and they started to get attacked... and I had one of my rats on the enemy's spawn point by only moving them ONE TURN. (It's on the other side of the map.) The more they tried to kill these things, the quicker I got to where I wanted to go.

So, they have quickly become one of my favorite units. My friends and youth just laugh at me, because they can't believe that I pick a 40 point army card FIRST before anything else. But they are so effective at what they do.

So, naturally... if you used someone like Dead-Eye Dan and did an unprotected (non-defense) shot on them, you wouldn't scatter at that point, right?

[LilNewbie]

The Deathreavers scatter only works against normal attacks so DED's two abilities wouldn't trigger a scatter only his normal attack.

Newb.

[thehandofzarquon]

The Deathreavers scatter only works against normal attacks so DED's two abilities wouldn't trigger a scatter only his normal attack.

Newb.I wasn't reading it as a question, more as a joke'ish comment... but maybe that's just me :P

[reapersaurus]

We play a map where you have to capture a glyph and bring it back to your 'spawn point.' (Which allows your characters to come back into play, if you roll high enough.) Any map/scenario where picking up something quickly is a big advantage is now hideously broken because of the Deathreavers, IMO.

[UranusPChicago]

I find them to be a perfect, cheap counter to range heavy armies. Run them in to engage the ranged units then bring in your melee units to finish the job. The best way to counter the Deathreavers is with multi-unit Special Attacks.

I think that there will be many people who live and die by range that will have to rethink their game to stay current.

[AgentX-127]

We play a map where you have to capture a glyph and bring it back to your 'spawn point.' (Which allows your characters to come back into play, if you roll high enough.) Any map/scenario where picking up something quickly is a big advantage is now hideously broken because of the Deathreavers, IMO.

Two simple solutions here:

Glyphs may only be picked up by a Hero.

or

Glyphs may only be picked up by a Medium, Large, or Huge figure.

Whichever flavor suits your scenario better.

[bluekitsune13]

I think they're only good for distraction or grabbing glyphs, and not much else. Their attack power is horrible, and even against vipers they'll miss half of the time.

[LilNewbie]

The Deathreavers scatter only works against normal attacks so DED's two abilities wouldn't trigger a scatter only his normal attack.

Newb.I wasn't reading it as a question, more as a joke'ish comment... but maybe that's just me :P

Yep it's you. Looks like he asked a legitimate question to me. ;)

Newb.

[Nadi]

Any map/scenario where picking up something quickly is a big advantage is now hideously broken because of the Deathreavers, IMO.

Well, it all depends. We actually find it as a very cool challenge to overcome... and what most of my friends don't understand is... 'DON'T ATTACK THE RATS.' I have one friend that understands this, and he spends most of the game trying to tell everyone else: "DO NOT SHOOT THESE RATS!" And for whatever the reason, they just end up doing it.

Though, even with the rats... I'd say that the rats have only won a few games, compared the the number that we have played, so while it does give you a slight advantage, most of the time my rats have been destroyed (or mostly sniped out by DED) before I can get them to where I need them to go.

Also, the robots with the claws (name escapes me at the moment) might not be a bad choice against them, but catching up with them might provide to be a challenge.

[nickmodaily]

Any map/scenario where picking up something quickly is a big advantage is now hideously broken because of the Deathreavers, IMO.

Well, it all depends. We actually find it as a very cool challenge to overcome... and what most of my friends don't understand is... 'DON'T ATTACK THE RATS.' I have one friend that understands this, and he spends most of the game trying to tell everyone else: "DO NOT SHOOT THESE RATS!" And for whatever the reason, they just end up doing it.

Though, even with the rats... I'd say that the rats have only won a few games, compared the the number that we have played, so while it does give you a slight advantage, most of the time my rats have been destroyed (or mostly sniped out by DED) before I can get them to where I need them to go.

Also, the robots with the claws (name escapes me at the moment) might not be a bad choice against them, but catching up with them might provide to be a challenge.

If your opponent drafts the Reavers, and you don't feel like letting them scurry around the board unobstructed, just draft Johnny or James. Shotgun blasts are a beautiful thing. And neither figure costs all that much either.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

The reavers are now my newest "annoyance" squad. I was playing over the weekend with my son and I found a couple of cubbie holes to put the reavers into that allowed them to move back out of range of melee attacks. I tortured his Raelin for like 3 turns while my samurai were advancing. I left 2 reavers at height somewhat in the open and would attack Raelin with the other 2. Then when one in the open was attacked I would move the 2 hiding back so Raelin couldn't reach them. It was great. Now I just need another squad of them.

So "annoyance" squad is good!

I am anticipating the Reavers the most of the common squads after seeing their stats. It's going to be a lot of fun with the movement choices. The scatter and disengage abilities are so in-line with the characters of roborodents.

[CornPuff]

UPC is right, these things are harsh anti range.

Move a squad of reavers next to the enemies line of 4th mass. The mass must shoot the reavers due to engagement rules. When the reavers are shot, more come up to fill their ranks. Meanwhile, you can advance whatever powerhouse you want without fear of being shot.

Then again, there is a high cost of neutralizing ranged squads. The more enemy squads you wish to harass, the more reavers you will need. In a 400 pt game, it should start adding up if you are countering mass mass.

[Jason]

Additionally since most starting zones are only 24 spaces, if you have a few squads of reavers then you can't draft many other squads.





-Undefeated Heroscape Champion

[Thor]

In a 400 pt game, it should start adding up if you are countering mass mass.
Mmm, 40 roborodents.. now that would be fun. Of course a hero or two with high attack power would be a much better choice to go along with the rats. Lock all the range units down in engagement then move the hero up for the kill.

[Taeblewalker]

Any map/scenario where picking up something quickly is a big advantage is now hideously broken because of the Deathreavers, IMO.

Well, it all depends. We actually find it as a very cool challenge to overcome... and what most of my friends don't understand is... 'DON'T ATTACK THE RATS.' I have one friend that understands this, and he spends most of the game trying to tell everyone else: "DO NOT SHOOT THESE RATS!" And for whatever the reason, they just end up doing it.

Though, even with the rats... I'd say that the rats have only won a few games, compared the the number that we have played, so while it does give you a slight advantage, most of the time my rats have been destroyed (or mostly sniped out by DED) before I can get them to where I need them to go.

Also, the robots with the claws (name escapes me at the moment) might not be a bad choice against them, but catching up with them might provide to be a challenge.

Vipers have always been my glyph getters early on. Especially with Slither. Deathreavers can't grab glyphs all that well on maps with Slither (I mean water). I would edit, but that just came out of my head and sounded funny. :lol:

Anyway, there is something creepy about shooting these things and having them close in like the beetle swarm from The Mummy.

As for countering them, yes, the Gladiatrons make a good anti squad. With Movement Bonding, you can keep the little critters in line while taking (Vydar soulborg enhanced) pot shots at the little buggers with the Blastarons.

On the rat side of things, if they want to effectively take out vipers, try to give them higher ground or draft Taelord (he doesn't cost that much). No, seriously! 180 + 120 (for three ratmadillo squads) is a 300 point army. If you can keep Taelord alive, you have the equivalent of scurrying Blade Gruts with higher Defense as long as Taelord is in the middle of things. In a 460 point army, put Raelin in the middle also, with Thorgrim adjacent to both of them. Now, you have sick defense/offense + Thorgrim can become a spirit for Taelord or Raelin. The only real weakness (other than the 50 that the rest of you will think up) is that there is no bonding, not even crappy.

[Eclipse]

Can a rat attack one of it's fellow squadmates? If so, you could potentially move a squad of rats 14 spaces every turn!

Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 4: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 5: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces

That's 14 spaces with just one turn marker. In addition, that's just 1 skull rolled against the other rats' 4 Defense!

Compared to the Vipers, the rats are supreme glyph takers. Not only can they get them faster (minus Frenzy). They can actually survive long enough to hold the glyphs.

[bluekitsune13]

Yeah, if you can risk killing a Reaver, you can move them like you said. Kind of cheesy, but legal.

[Eclipse]

1 Attack vs 4 Defense isn't much of a risk, IMO 8)

Now that I think about it, rather than moving an entire squad 14 spaces, you could just pair up your reavers and move 2 of them 22 spaces in a single turn... wow...

[bluekitsune13]

You haven't seen me roll! :duh:

[RichardD]

I thought that I'd seen a ruling somewhere that although you can attack your own units, the attack had to come froma diferent unit - that figures from the same squad cannot attack each other (and Drake's not allowed to cut off his own leg).

[Slade]

against normal attacks is the key words here. Keeping them out of line of sight from special shooting units is the way these need to be used, and bringing them up a fast flank on the 4th Mass just makes me feel dirty and wicked thinking of it... boy do I want to robo poo poo on 4th Mass's shiny boots!

[1shot_1kill]

The reavers are now my newest "annoyance" squad. I was playing over the weekend with my son and I found a couple of cubbie holes to put the reavers into that allowed them to move back out of range of melee attacks. I tortured his Raelin for like 3 turns while my samurai were advancing. I left 2 reavers at height somewhat in the open and would attack Raelin with the other 2. Then when one in the open was attacked I would move the 2 hiding back so Raelin couldn't reach them. It was great. Now I just need another squad of them.

So "annoyance" squad is good!

I am anticipating the Reavers the most of the common squads after seeing their stats. It's going to be a lot of fun with the movement choices. The scatter and disengage abilities are so in-line with the characters of roborodents.

Yes... it annoys my opponents that shooting at them only allows them to get better positioning. :D

[reapersaurus]

I thought that I'd seen a ruling somewhere that although you can attack your own units, the attack had to come froma diferent unit - that figures from the same squad cannot attack each other (and Drake's not allowed to cut off his own leg).I really hope this is the case, and I think it is, because this is the cheesiest strategy yet thunk up in HS.

(Yeah, cheesy when referrig to rats is hecka appropriate, too. :lol: )

[gamjuven]

I'm positive that you cannot have a squad attack itself. But you can attack your side. I used a gladiatron/blastatron army the other day with some rats and I shot at one that had hieght advantage in order to scatter a whole bunch of them in the beginning turns. You can attack your own guys as long as you use your full attack (height, glyphs, etc).

[Eclipse]

I thought that I'd seen a ruling somewhere that although you can attack your own units, the attack had to come froma diferent unit - that figures from the same squad cannot attack each other (and Drake's not allowed to cut off his own leg).I really hope this is the case, and I think it is, because this is the cheesiest strategy yet thunk up in HS.

(Yeah, cheesy when referrig to rats is hecka appropriate, too. :lol: )

A unit certainly cannot attack itself (a lone Rat couldn't move by attacking itself). I don't think I've seen any ruling saying a unit within a squad couldn't attack one of it's squadmates though.

[Blue Dane]

Can someone clarify this? Where does it say in the rulebook or anywhere else that you can attack your own army?

Sounds kind of cheesy to me?

[bluekitsune13]

Can someone clarify this? Where does it say in the rulebook or anywhere else that you can attack your own army?

Sounds kind of cheesy to me?

This is one of those instances where it doesn't say you can't, so it is legal. Though it is frowned apon by many.

[LilNewbie]

There was a question sent to Hasbro about attacking your own figures in which they replied Yes but with this explanation included:

Can I roll less attack/defense dice if I want?
No, on page 14 of the 2nd edition rulebook; number 2 under "To carry out the attack" states you have to roll the number listed on your army card, plus any enhancements.

Which means you have to roll maximum attack dice and maximum defense dice alloted to the attacker/defender. So there is risk involved in choosing to attack your own figures (not including that it is rather beardy.)

I agree with you about this tactic being against the flavor of the game but think of it as your opponent helping you wound/defeat his own units. :D

Newb.

[DoesntCompute]

I laughed when I read about the rats attacking each other. It is perfect! Think about a swarm of rats in the sewers climbing, clawing, and biting each other into a frenzy as they come flying down the tunnel at you. That is what I pictured. This hoard of rats trying to climb all over each other in an attempt to reach an enemy. Sure some would die but who cares!

[DoesntCompute]

Whatever you do, don't play a rat hoard against a Nikita/Gorilla army <shudders>.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I laughed when I read about the rats attacking each other. It is perfect! Think about a swarm of rats in the sewers climbing, clawing, and biting each other into a frenzy as they come flying down the tunnel at you. That is what I pictured. This hoard of rats trying to climb all over each other in an attempt to reach an enemy. Sure some would die but who cares!

It's their bio that has me in anticipation. What the heck is the rodent soulborgs' purpose on Alpha Prime? Target practice for ranged DWs?

[LilNewbie]

They are the actual Leaders on Alpha Prime. It's just that no one knows it except them. :D

Newb.

[Jormi_Boced]

I like the idea of being able to attakc your own units, and when done right, it does fit into the flavor of the game. Like think about the orcs shooting Krug with arrows to enrage him as he charges headlong into the enemy.

[reapersaurus]

I like the idea of being able to attakc your own units, and when done right, it does fit into the flavor of the game. Like think about the orcs shooting Krug with arrows to enrage him as he charges headlong into the enemy.I completely disagree.

Like was discussed at length with Craig when he said you could attack Krug, there are 2 ways of viewing this:

1) You enrage Krug to attack your opponent.

2) You enrage Krug and he now considers you an opponent, or simply doesn't want to fight for you anymore.

I am firmly in the 2) camp - I consider it insulting to Krug :D to assume that he's OK with your forces attacking him. In fact, it completely dismisses the figures into being wandering automotons instead of actual characters that you lead/direct in battle.

Attacking your own figures has always been antithetical to my approach to the game, and more importantly leads to cheesy tactics like these. :down:

[feekonea]

I laughed when I read about the rats attacking each other. It is perfect! Think about a swarm of rats in the sewers climbing, clawing, and biting each other into a frenzy as they come flying down the tunnel at you. That is what I pictured. This hoard of rats trying to climb all over each other in an attempt to reach an enemy. Sure some would die but who cares!

It's their bio that has me in anticipation. What the heck is the rodent soulborgs' purpose on Alpha Prime? Target practice for ranged DWs?


:rofl:

[Jormi_Boced]

I like the idea of being able to attakc your own units, and when done right, it does fit into the flavor of the game. Like think about the orcs shooting Krug with arrows to enrage him as he charges headlong into the enemy.I completely disagree.

Like was discussed at length with Craig when he said you could attack Krug, there are 2 ways of viewing this:

1) You enrage Krug to attack your opponent.

2) You enrage Krug and he now considers you an opponent, or simply doesn't want to fight for you anymore.

I am firmly in the 2) camp - I consider it insulting to Krug :D to assume that he's OK with your forces attacking him. In fact, it completely dismisses the figures into being wandering automotons instead of actual characters that you lead/direct in battle.

Attacking your own figures has always been antithetical to my approach to the game, and more importantly leads to cheesy tactics like these. :down:

Ok, thanks for your view. There are other games that don't let you do it, whey don't you play those then. I like it. I like other games like Warhammer that have these type of mechanics. It is fun, and that is why I play the game. I like to have an imagination and make up fun ideas of why things are happening in my Heroscape world instead of being pessimistic and saying it shouldn't happen.

[reapersaurus]

Ok, thanks for your view. If you really thought that, than you wouldn;t post what follows.... There are other games that don't let you do it, whey don't you play those then.
I like to have an imagination and make up fun ideas of why things are happening in my Heroscape world instead of being pessimistic and saying it shouldn't happen.I haven't heard this loud of a "Love it or leave it" post in a LOOOONG time.

You should probably think twice next time before advertising to everyone how exclusionary of HSer you are. :headshake:

[Tiberius]

If the rules allow it, why shouldnt you be able to attack your own guys? Anyhow, if Krug is lacking in the intelligence department and is considered a beast (which he is), then having his slavers or beast keepers (the arrow gruts) pushing him on seems legitimate to me. Though I dont attack my own characters because I like to use every life point they have to my advantage. If you wound him, sure he might deal more damage but he is also easier to kill on your opponents turn.

[Blue Dane]

Is there an official Hasbro ruling on attacking your own army?

[LilNewbie]

From the FAQ generated by questions sent Hasbro:

Is it legal to attack one of your own units?
Yes, it is legal to attack your own units. But, having said that, we really don't point it out or play it up. It's there for those who want it. Most kids (and many adults) will not even think of it.

and

What are the game mechanics of a consented-to attack from a friendly figure?
You must always roll the full number of allowed dice at all times.

and

May a figure attack itself?
No, A figure cannot target itself for an attack.

Newb.

[Karkadinn]

Y'know, Jormi, that was an exceptionally dumb and condescending post. I'm disappointed. :(

[Jormi_Boced]

Y'know, Jormi, that was an exceptionally dumb and condescending post. I'm disappointed. :(

What?

[bunjee]

Easy, easy everyone.

The rules are clarified by Hasbro, Reaper doesn't like it, Jormi does. Both have stated their reasons and tones are being read. Remember, we're trying to avoid unnecessary arguments.

[Karkadinn]

Y'know, Jormi, that was an exceptionally dumb and condescending post. I'm disappointed. :(

What?

C'mon, you're smart, I know you know what I mean. Devolving the difference of opinion into 'Well if you don't like it go play a different game, where you can be unimaginative and pessimistic' is nothing but a lazy attempt to tear the other side down so you don't have to actually start thinking about the issue in question.
Everyone has every right to play a game even if they don't like every single aspect of it.
Not liking a particular aspect of a game doesn't make someone less imaginative or less optimistic than those who do like it.
These things don't really need stating because they're obvious, but since you're trying to play dense....

[Grungebob]

Easy, easy everyone.

The rules are clarified by Hasbro, Reaper doesn't like it, Jormi does. Both have stated their reasons and tones are being read. Remember, we're trying to avoid unnecessary arguments.

[Revdyer]

I played last night against an army with two squads of warmadilloes and it was really an interesting pain to try and wade through those critters with two squads of Ashra warriors. Nonetheless, the best part of the game was when I got to have Moresbane successfully use his Rod of Negation (aka "Rod of Negativity" in our group) on Krug. After that Krug isn't tough at all! (It was my first successful Moresbane negation, so I guess I'm savoring it.)

[TweetyBird]

I played last night against an army with two squads of warmadilloes and it was really an interesting pain to try and wade through those critters with two squads of Ashra warriors. Nonetheless, the best part of the game was when I got to have Moresbane successfully use his Rod of Negation (aka "Rod of Negativity" in our group) on Krug. After that Krug isn't tough at all! (It was my first successful Moresbane negation, so I guess I'm savoring it.)

I haven't had much luck with the Rod of Negation myself. So far, all it's done for me is negate my chances of winning. :(

[feekonea]

I played last night against an army with two squads of warmadilloes and it was really an interesting pain to try and wade through those critters with two squads of Ashra warriors. Nonetheless, the best part of the game was when I got to have Moresbane successfully use his Rod of Negation (aka "Rod of Negativity" in our group) on Krug. After that Krug isn't tough at all! (It was my first successful Moresbane negation, so I guess I'm savoring it.)

I haven't had much luck with the Rod of Negation myself. So far, all it's done for me is negate my chances of winning. :(


:lol: My 20D rocks, the really only thing i suck 2 is initiative rolls. :( :D

[LilNewbie]

I played last night against an army with two squads of warmadilloes and it was really an interesting pain to try and wade through those critters with two squads of Ashra warriors. Nonetheless, the best part of the game was when I got to have Moresbane successfully use his Rod of Negation (aka "Rod of Negativity" in our group) on Krug. After that Krug isn't tough at all! (It was my first successful Moresbane negation, so I guess I'm savoring it.)

That's awesome! Grats on your first negation! The first activation of the first time my group used NGS he Mindshackled someone...talk about "holy frijoles, Batman!" He received new respect in the group after that.

:D

Newb.

[kenjib]

May a figure attack itself?
No, A figure cannot target itself for an attack.


It says figure, so then yes, it appears that the ratborgs can attack each other to initiate a scatter.

It seems like these guys can effectively lock down key melee opponents without disengage in addition to the ranged ideas already mentioned. While they only have attack 1, they still get the normal disengage die. So, if you run a pack of these up next to a high cost melee figure your opponent will probably want to kill most of them (with a nice 4 defense) before moving, and every time he attacks one of them without a special attack, more of them can close in to keep him tied down. He will have to waste several turns with perhaps his best unit trying to clear out these really low cost units while you are free to attack his other units.

[bunjee]

May a figure attack itself?
No, A figure cannot target itself for an attack.


It says figure, so then yes, it appears that the ratborgs can attack each other to initiate a scatter.

It seems like these guys can effectively lock down key melee opponents without disengage in addition to the ranged ideas already mentioned. While they only have attack 1, they still get the normal disengage die. So, if you run a pack of these up next to a high cost melee figure your opponent will probably want to kill most of them (with a nice 4 defense) before moving, and every time he attacks one of them without a special attack, more of them can close in to keep him tied down. He will have to waste several turns with perhaps his best unit trying to clear out these really low cost units while you are free to attack his other units.


Bwahahahahaa! That is why I want 5 sets. 200 points of Reavers plus whatever other 200 points I go for should work out nicely in a 400 point army.

And you have the figure not attacking itself set correctly. One example of this is that Deathwalker 9000 can't target himself with his special explosion in order to attack units surrounding him. If he targets a figure adjacent to him, he does have to defend against his explosion attack, but he wasn't targetting the attack on himself.

Ditto on the airborne and their grenades. Though they could target each other, they can't target themselves.

[thehandofzarquon]

May a figure attack itself?
No, A figure cannot target itself for an attack.


It says figure, so then yes, it appears that the ratborgs can attack each other to initiate a scatter.

It seems like these guys can effectively lock down key melee opponents without disengage in addition to the ranged ideas already mentioned. While they only have attack 1, they still get the normal disengage die. So, if you run a pack of these up next to a high cost melee figure your opponent will probably want to kill most of them (with a nice 4 defense) before moving, and every time he attacks one of them without a special attack, more of them can close in to keep him tied down. He will have to waste several turns with perhaps his best unit trying to clear out these really low cost units while you are free to attack his other units.Indeed, these guys are going to be nasty at tying up figures.

Even though I think that attacking your own figure is cheesy, I actually have images of a large rat swarm, biting and clawing their way trying to get away or to something...

Still, I wouldn't consider doing that tactic in a friendly game... in a tournament, however... :wink:

[Revdyer]

Bwahahahahaa! That is why I want 5 sets. 200 points of Reavers plus whatever other 200 points I go for should work out nicely in a 400 point army.

Yipes! Eight of 'em was enough; twenty would be something that would show up in my nightmares that night.

[DoesntCompute]

Never I repeat NEVER try a rat swarm against a Nikita/Gorilla army!

[Kepler]

May a figure attack itself?
No, A figure cannot target itself for an attack.


It says figure, so then yes, it appears that the ratborgs can attack each other to initiate a scatter.

It seems like these guys can effectively lock down key melee opponents without disengage in addition to the ranged ideas already mentioned. While they only have attack 1, they still get the normal disengage die. So, if you run a pack of these up next to a high cost melee figure your opponent will probably want to kill most of them (with a nice 4 defense) before moving, and every time he attacks one of them without a special attack, more of them can close in to keep him tied down. He will have to waste several turns with perhaps his best unit trying to clear out these really low cost units while you are free to attack his other units.Indeed, these guys are going to be nasty at tying up figures.

Even though I think that attacking your own figure is cheesy, I actually have images of a large rat swarm, biting and clawing their way trying to get away or to something...

Still, I wouldn't consider doing that tactic in a friendly game... in a tournament, however... :wink:

This is the one unit that I might consider the attacking your own unit tactic. Maybe.

[bunjee]

Never I repeat NEVER try a rat swarm against a Nikita/Gorilla army! Unless your other 200 points is 2 squads of 4th mass and Dead Eye Dan. That could be fun.

Then again, I haven't played doodly squat lately, so don't take my view as anything that would work.

[Sir Maximilian]

First off, this is my first post, so I hope I do everything correctly here.

Anyway, my question is this: Since the Deathreavers' ability says that "you may move any 2", does that mean you could move the one that was attacked (risking the parting shot, of course)?

Thanks for the help.

[thehandofzarquon]

First off, this is my first post, so I hope I do everything correctly here.

Anyway, my question is this: Since the Deathreavers' ability says that "you may move any 2", does that mean you could move the one that was attacked (risking the parting shot, of course)?

Thanks for the help.Yep, and they have disengage, so you wouldn't need to worry about the leaving engagement attack.

[Revdyer]

First off, this is my first post, so I hope I do everything correctly here.

Anyway, my question is this: Since the Deathreavers' ability says that "you may move any 2", does that mean you could move the one that was attacked (risking the parting shot, of course)?

Thanks for the help.
Exactly right, Sir Max, as thehandofzarquon correctly said; that is what is so devilishly clever about the little critters. And welcome to the site!

[fejkl]

Therefore, draft Gladiatrons...no more disengage. :twisted:

[Sir Maximilian]

So, potentially, you could move all four Deathreavers, with two landing next to each other. Then, those two could attack each other, one then the other, allowing you to move the other two another eight spaces. Or move one squad of them, attacking each other to allow a whole other squad (two figures at a time) to move four--maybe even eight--each. The possibilities are endless. These reavers get more and more interesting the more I think about them.

And thank you for that welcome. I have been reading these posts for a while and using the resources of this site without participating myself, but I thought it was time to make myself known. This really is a great site.

Milian (pronouced "million"--the amount of money I would probably spend on HeroScape if I had it)

[geddy lifeson]

No figures may attack themselves.

[bunjee]

No figures may attack themselves.They cannot attack themselves, but they may attack other units on their team, so one part of a deathreaver squad may attack another deathreaver within the rules of the game.

And I agree with an earlier post, considering their rat like appearance, this is quite in keeping with the swarming, nipping, squeaking rat horde often portrayed in movies. Even if the idea of attacking your own army member bothers people in a gameplay area.

[MacG]

I don't see anyone talking about the fun denial of attacks for range one figures. I had some armordillos moving towards the enemy's line and he ran his Warriors of Ashra up, leaving only a single space to go through. He took a stab with the first Amazon, which missed. Then the OTHER TWO armordillos who HAD been adjacent to the Amazons yet to attack this turn just scattered right past them and moved towards the 4th mass (their actual goal). It was funny to see my rats scatter right through his Maginot Line during his own turn.

The thing that seemed to bug him most (because he then understood why I was so confident about being able to get to those 4th massers) was that with his melee squads, I'd give him only one good attack a turn. The other rats just scattered out of adjacency of the other two attackers.

[Nwojedi]

it's too bad they couldn't get a free attack when they scatter too. They would then be the BEST unit EVER

[Thor]

So has anyone thought of a great counter to the Deathreavers that is even remotely in the same price range? Blade Gruts and Grimnak might be good for countering a bunch of them, but it isn't ideal. Most of the figures that have high enough attack to penetrate the Deathreaver's 4 defence are of the expensive hero variety. Not only that, if your opponent has range units they could be taking pot shots at the hero while he is trying to wade though all the rats, which would only serve to bring more and more to his feet witch each attack.

Really the only decent counters I can think of would be the Gladiatrons and Blastatrons. Keep the Gladiatrons in a wall formation in front of the Blastatrons, lock the Deathreavers down, and hope you blow them away with your 3 attack or so from the Blastatrons. Of course that is the same cost as 3.5 squads of Deathreavers.

[Grungebob]

Any simple special attack will put a stop to them. I suggest DW series or Q9. Brunak is a decent choice too. Obviously these are all more expensive. Ae lob would be a nice way to thin their numbers early on if you can get a good drop roll.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I used four squads of Reavers last night. They can really be an annoyance to the opponent! They're oh so great at directing the firing of your opponent's ranged units in directions you want them to fire (or not).

After rolling defense for the little buggers, it was interesting to realize I could move 2 into engagement with the rest of a ranged unit's figures that hadn't fired yet. Thus, directing where they could fire and potentially getting some more rodents to move again and again.

They are really a lot of fun to play.



And I agree with an earlier post, considering their rat like appearance, this is quite in keeping with the swarming, nipping, squeaking rat horde often portrayed in movies.

Yes, yes, yes! If there ever was a unit with an ability that identified so well with its characters, the Deathreavers are it! I kept making a squeaking sound whenever Guerillanator attacked them!

[LilNewbie]

I used four squads of Reavers last night. They can really be an annoyance to the opponent! They're oh so great at directing the firing of your opponent's ranged units in directions you want them to fire (or not).

After rolling defense for the little buggers, it was interesting to realize I could move 2 into engagement with the rest of a ranged unit's figures that hadn't fired yet. Thus, directing where they could fire and potentially getting some more rodents to move again and again.

They are really a lot of fun to play.



And I agree with an earlier post, considering their rat like appearance, this is quite in keeping with the swarming, nipping, squeaking rat horde often portrayed in movies.

Yes, yes, yes! If there ever was a unit with an ability that identified so well with its characters, the Deathreavers are it! I kept making a squeaking sound whenever Guerillanator attacked them!

LOL! This would be the time to post the pictures of those rat/mouse minis you purchased a while ago. :D


Newb.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

LOL! This would be the time to post the pictures of those rat/mouse minis you purchased a while ago. :D


Newb.

I only wish I had thought of an ability like Scatter for my Food of the Gods army! The Reavers could have a base attack of 0 and I'd still think they were potent enough to draft again and again.

[bunjee]

I finally got a chance to play with the Warmadillos(Reavers) last night for the first time. I love them! I had like them in theory, but I liked them more in practice! I only have the 1 squad right now, but I'll have 4 more available to me eventually and I can't wait. So I re-read the thread for things I might have new thoughts on after having played.The Reavers are pretty sweet. My wife attacked them twice in one turn today, and I moved them into engagement with one of the units that had an attack left. In a way, then, they served to protect the more valuable unit from future attacks.

BTW, that 4 defense really holds up nicely.Indeed, not to mention that at 40 points, you can get an awful lot of the darn things. Sure, they don't have great attack, but neither do the Arrow Gruts :P.
Of course the reavers arn't ranged (making it that much harder the gain extra attack from height), and they don't have bonding (and bonding with a unit that increases their attack and defense by 1 mind you). Then again I guess their purpose isn't really to kill enemy units so much as it is to tie them up in engagment eh?With the scatter ability I found getting elevation to be pretty easy, I was able to kill an Arrow grut that had attacked me on my next turn because I had scattered 1 water step towards the shore when attacked, allowing my regular move to take me out of the water and up around the arrow grut.
We play a map where you have to capture a glyph and bring it back to your 'spawn point.' (Which allows your characters to come back into play, if you roll high enough.) Any map/scenario where picking up something quickly is a big advantage is now hideously broken because of the Deathreavers, IMO.A lot have people have mentioned the counter to this, but I still want to drop my :2cents: Much has been made of the dominance of ranged units in this game. This unit begins to bring a weakness to that, which is nice. As for the picking up something quickly being broken issue, the importance of intelligent drafting looms large. The releases that came just before this one all contain units with ranged special attacks (except Tundra). I like the thematic flavor of the Cowboys shooting rats. Even Guilty, it isn't a special attack, but a double attack could pick a few rats off to reduce the overall numbers.
On the map I played last night, there were a number of glyphs, but I got to them with my normal move of 6, scatter didn't come into play until later in the game, and I had abandoned one of the glyphs by then.

That Defense of 4 really holds up!

[Revdyer]

I don't see anyone talking about the fun denial of attacks for range one figures. I had some armordillos moving towards the enemy's line and he ran his Warriors of Ashra up, leaving only a single space to go through. He took a stab with the first Amazon, which missed. Then the OTHER TWO armordillos who HAD been adjacent to the Amazons yet to attack this turn just scattered right past them and moved towards the 4th mass (their actual goal). It was funny to see my rats scatter right through his Maginot Line during his own turn.

The thing that seemed to bug him most (because he then understood why I was so confident about being able to get to those 4th massers) was that with his melee squads, I'd give him only one good attack a turn. The other rats just scattered out of adjacency of the other two attackers.

Yes, Macg! That is exactly my experience playing against those warmadillos. I can't wait to draft them into my army.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I don't see anyone talking about the fun denial of attacks for range one figures. I had some armordillos moving towards the enemy's line and he ran his Warriors of Ashra up, leaving only a single space to go through. He took a stab with the first Amazon, which missed. Then the OTHER TWO armordillos who HAD been adjacent to the Amazons yet to attack this turn just scattered right past them and moved towards the 4th mass (their actual goal). It was funny to see my rats scatter right through his Maginot Line during his own turn.

The thing that seemed to bug him most (because he then understood why I was so confident about being able to get to those 4th massers) was that with his melee squads, I'd give him only one good attack a turn. The other rats just scattered out of adjacency of the other two attackers.

Yes, Macg! That is exactly my experience playing against those warmadillos. I can't wait to draft them into my army.

I guess it depends. If I had a ton of the little buggers, I'd keep some engaged with those range 1 squad figures in order to get more of the other Reavers moving based on further attacks.

Playing last night, I also realized once I'd gotten enough of the Reavers imbedded in my opponent's ranks, I could leave them out there without turn markers and concentrate on getting my other units forward.
He could go ahead and attack the rats, I'd be happy if he could activate some for me without using any of my order markers.

Now I talk all hotty-totty, but I am honestly going to fear when it's my turn to deal with 4+ squads of roborodents. :shock:

[Revdyer]

It is the truth, H_E_H. Thinking about three or four squads of those biters gives me the willies!

[DemoDougie]

Gives me the heebie-geebies! :shock:

[bunjee]

Just remember, you have to squeak when the scatter is initiated. Here's me:
http://homepage.mac.com/jls/hs/ratsqueak.wav

My shipment of more reavers hits the ups trucks on Monday. I'll have them next week. 20 Reavers on the board. Yessssssssss.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Just remember, you have to squeak when the scatter is initiated. Here's me:
http://homepage.mac.com/jls/hs/ratsqueak.wav

My shipment of more reavers hits the ups trucks on Monday. I'll have them next week. 20 Reavers on the board. Yessssssssss.

Bunjee, you've got the rodent spirit in you! Can't wait to get home and hear the .wav file! I'll try to record my sound too. It's too much fun not to make a really annoying sound while your opponent watches them advance! I think I have 5 sets total. The last few days have been a flurry of packages arriving and being torn open. Need to step back and take inventory of masses.

[reapersaurus]

Now I talk all hotty-totty, but I am honestly going to fear when it's my turn to deal with 4+ squads of roborodents. :shock:When analyzing squads, I ALWAYS think of it from what it would be like to FACE the unit first.
If you think about what it is like to play WITH them, the typical reaction would be to accept overpowered units.

And bunj - that squeak sound was cute - and the right spirit of the game - it should be a houserule to require it when playing them. :)
but it also sounded like something else.... ; )

[bunjee]

but it also sounded like something else.... ; )
I'm not sure what sort of sick thing you are in to, but my pet rats used to make that exact noise when they were playing with each other or trying to get my attention.

sick sick sick sick sick. :buttkick:
:wink:

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Now I talk all hotty-totty, but I am honestly going to fear when it's my turn to deal with 4+ squads of roborodents. :shock:When analyzing squads, I ALWAYS think of it from what it would be like to FACE the unit first.
If you think about what it is like to play WITH them, the typical reaction would be to accept overpowered units.

You think the Reavers are overpowered?

[Revdyer]

Just remember, you have to squeak when the scatter is initiated.
I like the part where the Charlie's Angels all jump up on the furniture. <ducking>

[reapersaurus]

Now I talk all hotty-totty, but I am honestly going to fear when it's my turn to deal with 4+ squads of roborodents. :shock:When analyzing squads, I ALWAYS think of it from what it would be like to FACE the unit first.
If you think about what it is like to play WITH them, the typical reaction would be to accept overpowered units.

You think the Reavers are overpowered?I KNEW you'd ask that. :D

It was a general statement about unit analysis approach, not a conclusion about the rats.

The rats ARE overpowered & IMO broken in one case - when reaching a target (say recovering an Artifact or flag) will win the scenario.

[LilNewbie]

Two words: Airborne Elite. They've been there from the beginning. ;)

Newb.

[Revdyer]

Two words: Airborne Elite. They've been there from the beginning. ;)

Newb.
Shoot, and I thought it was a plasma field singularity or something like that at the beginning.

[Havokscry]

Two words: Airborne Elite. They've been there from the beginning. ;)

Newb.
Shoot, and I thought it was a plasma field singularity or something like that at the beginning.

That is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Thanks for keeping things light Rev.

[LilNewbie]

Two words: Airborne Elite. They've been there from the beginning. ;)

Newb.
Shoot, and I thought it was a plasma field singularity or something like that at the beginning.

LOL! :rimshot:

...from the beginning of HS. :D Happy?

Newb.

[Revdyer]

You're welcome, Havokscry. That's one of the few things I can manage to do is keeping it light.

Oh, and Newb, I am one of those folks who really like having the AE in my armies too.

[funrun]

I don't have time to read this thread, but I figured I'd add that I just saw these figs played and they were awesome. They survived many attacks throughout the entire game and lasted a surprising 70% of the way through the game with much great use. My partner sent them during the first round to hold glyphs on a bridge, and they tied up the enemy from crossing the bridge or taking the glyphs. The other two rats not on glyphs were free to scatter after attacks and engage any enemy that got near the bridge. Well worth the 40 pts in this case!

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

I ran 3 sets of Reavers in the tourney the other day, and these little buggers made a giant wall of figs 2 deep which virtually cut off a whole area of advance!!!

[Jormi_Boced]

I ran 3 sets of Reavers in the tourney the other day, and these little buggers made a giant wall of figs 2 deep which virtually cut off a whole area of advance!!!

So did you win a lot?

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

I ran 3 sets of Reavers in the tourney the other day, and these little buggers made a giant wall of figs 2 deep which virtually cut off a whole area of advance!!!

So did you win a lot?

I only used that army in one round. It was vs. an Orc army with Grimnak, Tornak, Nerak, Blade Gruts.

The swarm held off the advancers while my Marro Warriors sniped for the rear.

The swarm managed to take down Tornak and got Grimnak to within 1 life. Then time ran out. It was clear that I would take the win if time did not run out, but it did.

Still great fun with them little buggers.

[Revdyer]

I ran 3 sets of Reavers in the tourney the other day, and these little buggers made a giant wall of figs 2 deep which virtually cut off a whole area of advance!!!

Oh, Oogie...you da man! That's is exactly the way I want to try it. Three seems, to me (without experience of more than two) the right number of waramdilloes.

[Hahma]

While I haven't played them yet but have 3 squads of them just itching to get in the game, I think they would be great fun. From the abilities on their card and reading what others have said about them, they seem to me to be meant to be anti-ranged units. For a mere 80pts you have 8 rats that can charge toward the opponents ranged units and tie them up, forcing them to engage the rats while you close in with the beef of your army. They could also be used as a running screen vs a blast/glad army. Just keep them (the rats) between the Glads and your main army. You get enough of them and they are CHEAP.

I kind of like the idea of having something to help counter ranged squads. I'd like to draft certain squads/heroes but don't sometimes becuase they'd be too succeptable to ranged attacks. Well now I can draft them and sick the rats on my opponents ranged guys.

[reapersaurus]

uhhh... how bout using the Reavers as a supplement to Deadeye Dan to let him walk up, then have that turn to snipe that he normally wouldn;t get without weathering attacks? :D

I'll call that "Cheesy Reaver Sniping". ;)

[bunjee]

uhhh... how bout using the Reavers as a supplement to Deadeye Dan to let him walk up, then have that turn to snipe that he normally wouldn;t get without weathering attacks? :D

I'll call that "Cheesy Reaver Sniping". ;)I did that with Sudema and the Reavers.

[reapersaurus]

uhhh... how bout using the Reavers as a supplement to Deadeye Dan to let him walk up, then have that turn to snipe that he normally wouldn;t get without weathering attacks? :D

I'll call that "Cheesy Reaver Sniping". ;)I did that with Sudema and the Reavers.That'd be "Cheesy Stoned Reavers" :lol:

[Aranas]

(finally read all 14 pages)

From page 6:
Can a rat attack one of it's fellow squadmates? If so, you could potentially move a squad of rats 14 spaces every turn!

Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 4: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 5: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces

That's 14 spaces with just one turn marker. In addition, that's just 1 skull rolled against the other rats' 4 Defense!

Compared to the Vipers, the rats are supreme glyph takers. Not only can they get them faster (minus Frenzy). They can actually survive long enough to hold the glyphs.
14 spaces EVERY turn!!! :shock: Well, of course, there is a risk associated with it but still, what a potential!
Aranas

[Grungebob]

(finally read all 14 pages)

From page 6:
Can a rat attack one of it's fellow squadmates? If so, you could potentially move a squad of rats 14 spaces every turn!

Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 4: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 5: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces

That's 14 spaces with just one turn marker. In addition, that's just 1 skull rolled against the other rats' 4 Defense!

Compared to the Vipers, the rats are supreme glyph takers. Not only can they get them faster (minus Frenzy). They can actually survive long enough to hold the glyphs.
14 spaces EVERY turn!!! :shock: Well, of course, there is a risk associated with it but still, what a potential!
AranasIn actual games it would not work out this way. First off he is assuming that his rats roll a skull each time they attack and chances are they will only roll skulls half the time, so that reduces this scenario in half right off the bat. Then there is the occasional rat that dies while attempting this, it just doesn't work out like he is thinking.

[feekonea]

I personally think the rats should have an attack of 0, so they cant do that, Im starting to think they are a serious, serious bargain

[GaryLASQ]

wow! deathreavers attacking each other. yikes. i'd allow it.

man, either lock 'em down with gladiatrons or hit them with something that keeps them from rolling defense dice...like Braxas or Me-Burq-Sa if he gets the stare. or a few other figs that kill without allowing use of defense dice.

i have a question (it may have already been asked here. if so, sorry.)

if a deathreaver rolls defense dice and is destroyed, is it removed immediately or is it removed after moving any two deathreavers? if it is removed after moving any two deathreavers, then other problems arise.

[Grungebob]

Scatter
After a Deathreaver you control rolls defense dice against a normal attack, you may move any 2 Deathreavers you control up to 4 spaces each.

So after you remove the destroyed one you would move two more.

[LilNewbie]

Good question, GaryLASQ. I would say the dead rat is removed and then the others move since rolling the defense dice completes the attack and the results of the attack (removing the destroyed figure or the rat laughing at it's attacker :D ) should occur before any other triggered actions. But that is my interpretation others will disagree.

Newb.

[GaryLASQ]

Scatter
After a Deathreaver you control rolls defense dice against a normal attack, you may move any 2 Deathreavers you control up to 4 spaces each.

So after you remove the destroyed one you would move two more.
i'll go with that. i'm assuming this is because a destroyed deathreaver is one that you no longer control.

however i think there is a bit of wiggle room for rules lawyering here.

if you must remove it before moving two that you still control then great. but if you must remove it after, then you can't move to a glyph that the destroyed one was (is) standing on. (unless of course your deathreavers are attacking each other and you get another chance to get to the vacant glyph before the turn is over.)

edit: but that would be pretty muddled. you would have to keep track of the "soon to be removed one(s)". so never mind. remove it right away!

[thehandofzarquon]

(finally read all 14 pages)

From page 6:
Can a rat attack one of it's fellow squadmates? If so, you could potentially move a squad of rats 14 spaces every turn!

Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 4: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 5: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces

That's 14 spaces with just one turn marker. In addition, that's just 1 skull rolled against the other rats' 4 Defense!

Compared to the Vipers, the rats are supreme glyph takers. Not only can they get them faster (minus Frenzy). They can actually survive long enough to hold the glyphs.
14 spaces EVERY turn!!! :shock: Well, of course, there is a risk associated with it but still, what a potential!
AranasIn actual games it would not work out this way. First off he is assuming that his rats roll a skull each time they attack and chances are they will only roll skulls half the time, so that reduces this scenario in half right off the bat. Then there is the occasional rat that dies while attempting this, it just doesn't work out like he is thinking.Um... it doesn't mater if the rat doesn't roll a skull, you can still roll the targeted rat's defense dice just like when your opponent rolls all blanks and you roll Defense Dice for Counterstike.

It would matter for the Ninjas, however, since at least 1 skull has to be rolled for the disappear to be triggered.

Personally, I'm beginning to wonder if they actually had the rats attacking each other to move farther in mind when they designed/playtested it.

[GaryLASQ]

Personally, I'm beginning to wonder if they actually had the rats attacking each other to move farther in mind when they designed/playtested it.based on the way the SP is worded i think they (the one's with the secret decoder rings) did have this in mind. or at least have it in mind for other friendly figs to attack them, if not actually attacking each other.

either way, the wording on this SP crys out for friendly fire, imo.

[Grungebob]

Ok good point about rolling defense dice. I still think it is somewhat risky business to do this. It will be interesting to see if this is a common practise.

[Aranas]

(finally read all 14 pages)

From page 6:
Can a rat attack one of it's fellow squadmates? If so, you could potentially move a squad of rats 14 spaces every turn!

Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 4: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 3 and 4 4 spaces
Phase 5: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 1 and 2 4 spaces

That's 14 spaces with just one turn marker. In addition, that's just 1 skull rolled against the other rats' 4 Defense!

Compared to the Vipers, the rats are supreme glyph takers. Not only can they get them faster (minus Frenzy). They can actually survive long enough to hold the glyphs.
14 spaces EVERY turn!!! :shock: Well, of course, there is a risk associated with it but still, what a potential!
AranasIn actual games it would not work out this way. First off he is assuming that his rats roll a skull each time they attack and chances are they will only roll skulls half the time, so that reduces this scenario in half right off the bat. Then there is the occasional rat that dies while attempting this, it just doesn't work out like he is thinking.Um... it doesn't mater if the rat doesn't roll a skull, you can still roll the targeted rat's defense dice just like when your opponent rolls all blanks and you roll Defense Dice for Counterstike.

It would matter for the Ninjas, however, since at least 1 skull has to be rolled for the disappear to be triggered.

Personally, I'm beginning to wonder if they actually had the rats attacking each other to move farther in mind when they designed/playtested it.
Let me add that, with luck and using the same technique above, you could move 12 rats with only ONE order marker:
Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 5 and 6 4 spaces
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 4: Move rats 7 and 8 4 spaces
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 9 and 10 4 spaces
Phase 5: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 11 and 12 4 spaces
In this example, 4 rats moved 6 spaces and 8 rats moved 4 spaces.


Or, move one rat up to 18 spaces:
Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 4 4 spaces (+one other, say rat #5)
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 2: Move rats 4 4 spaces (+one other)
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 4 4 spaces (+one other)
In this example, rat #4 moved 18 spaces!!!

Please, find the flaw in this reasoning :pray:

Aranas

[reapersaurus]

Naaaa. I'd rather move 4 Gladiatrons 5 spaces, then 4 Blastatrons 5 spaces, then shoot at 4 rats, moving 2 of them 16 spaces. :D

"Blasted Cheesy Reavers", man.

[Hahma]

Cheesy tactics it right!

But I guess if it's legal, then it's legal.

[mathguy]

Or, move one rat up to 18 spaces:
Phase 1: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rats 4 4 spaces (+one other, say rat #5)
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 2: Move rats 4 4 spaces (+one other)
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 1: Move rats 4 4 spaces (+one other)
In this example, rat #4 moved 18 spaces!!!


You can make one more attack and move one rat 22 spaces....
Here is an optimized algorithm. Using just one squad, and say if the 4 rats started together.
Phase 0: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 1: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 4 and 3 each ahead 4 spaces.
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rat 4 ahead 4 spaces, and rat 1 to join rat 3.
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 1: Move rat 4 4 spaces and move rat 2 up 4 spaces to join rats 1 and 3.
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 3: Move rats 4 4 spaces (and any other).

This requires rats 3 and 2 to survive the first two attacks. But it doesn't matter if rats 1 and 3 survive the later two attacks.

[Aranas]

You can make one more attack and move one rat 22 spaces....
Here is an optimized algorithm. Using just one squad, and say if the 4 rats started together.
Phase 0: Move all 4 rats 6 spaces
Phase 1: Rat 4 attacks rat 3: Move rats 4 and 3 each ahead 4 spaces.
Phase 2: Rat 1 attacks rat 2: Move rat 4 ahead 4 spaces, and rat 1 to join rat 3.
Phase 3: Rat 3 attacks rat 1: Move rat 4 4 spaces and move rat 2 up 4 spaces to join rats 1 and 3.
Phase 4: Rat 2 attacks rat 3: Move rats 4 4 spaces (and any other).

This requires rats 3 and 2 to survive the first two attacks. But it doesn't matter if rats 1 and 3 survive the later two attacks.
22 spaces!!!
:shock:

Aranas

[GaryLASQ]

so all you have to do is destroy the fortress door, then use the Rat-22-move algorithm to capture the flag. game over. :)

[bunjee]

Ok good point about rolling defense dice. I still think it is somewhat risky business to do this. It will be interesting to see if this is a common practise.It is risky, but when running a guantlet the other night, I had a teammate shoot my rat with her second Guilty McCreech attack. There were no enemies left in range so I said "Shoot me! Shoot me!) so I could get that extra 4 spaces. She shot my rear most rat, I wiffed on defense, but got to move 2 that were visible to my enemy into an area where the enemy had to move to get me.

It did what I wanted it to do, would have preferred to not loose the 1 rat, I can't wait until I have more than 1 squad to use.

[Aranas]

So, to sum this up, with only ONE order marker (and some luck) you can:

a) move 4 rats 14 spaces, or
b) move up to 12 rats (4 rats 6 spaces and 8 rats 4 spaces), or
c) move one rat up to 22 spaces (and others rats few spaces in the same time).

That is quite a big potential! (we will need a smiley just for them)

And this doesn't even include the strategic advantages listed on previous pages like moving two rats out of range when a rat is attacked or on the contrary, closing on squad figures that haven't shoot yet in order to force them to attack your rat...

I can't wait to try them friday night.

Aranas

[Hendal]

Bunjee,

I have been playing with wave 5 here in costa rica with proxy's and cards I wrote up by hand. Just use any old figures and draft away on the rats. I would rather us the real mini's , but in a pinch why not just go with it and enjoy it.

40 rats for 400 pts., now that is an army I need to try. Not a strong attack but the potential for movement, and if you have an attack glyph on the board, it could be a force to be reckened with.

[Revdyer]

Hendel, I agree with you about the rats (although we who have armadillos in our yards call them "warmadilloes). But be careful about the number of allowed starting hexes. Too many can force your army right off the board.

[Hendal]

Hey Rev,

in our games we extend the starting zone for big armies, kinda a house rule, so that isn't a problem in friendly games, is there ever really a friendly game if your tring to kill the other guys whole army???

[Revdyer]

Sure, there are lots of friendly games. I haven't seen them at tornaments, though. Otherwise, all the games I play are friendly.

[bunjee]

Yeah, that's the problem with cheap squads. I've gotten caught by the starting zone problem before and hand to switch my army. Bites.

That is a good note for people making custom scenarios, include in the army configuration information the number of starting zone spaces.

[Grungebob]

It is my belief that there either should be a standard amount or that there shortly will be. 22-24 spaces seems about right.

[Rÿchean]

Rats attacking themselves????

Like with the Blastatrons, the words we are so used to seeing on a card could have so easily been added...

Given the number of releases with this game and the number of times limiting words like "units you control" and "friendly" have been placed on a card, wouldn't Hasbro know to put a limiter on the rats if they wanted to keep them from attacking themselves??? (they knew enough to put a limiter on the McDirk warriors :shrug: )

"After a deathreaver you control rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opposing figure, you may move any 2...."

The bolded words above could have so easily been added to the card; why woudnt it have been worded that way?? unless of course they didnt want to put that limit on the deathreavers.

The fact that they didn't and it would have been so easy to do so, leaves me concluding that they left it open to allow for this tactic.

Cheesy ? Yes it is.
Scary? I think so.

In the games I have played with them, they were already very controlling and dictating without needing to attack themselves. Having the rats feast upon each other will only make them more effective and more flexible.

[Aranas]

Rats attacking themselves????

Like with the Blastatrons, the words we are so used to seeing on a card could have so easily been added...

Given the number of releases with this game and the number of times limiting words like "units you control" and "friendly" have been placed on a card, wouldn't Hasbro know to put a limiter on the rats if they wanted to keep them from attacking themselves??? (they knew enough to put a limiter on the McDirk warriors :shrug: )

"After a deathreaver you control rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opposing figure, you may move any 2...."

The bolded words above could have so easily been added to the card; why woudnt it have been worded that way?? unless of course they didnt want to put that limit on the deathreavers.

The fact that they didn't and it would have been so easy to do so, leaves me concluding that they left it open to allow for this tactic.

Cheesy ? Yes it is.
Scary? I think so.

In the games I have played with them, they were already very controlling and dictating without needing to attack themselves. Having the rats feast upon each other will only make them more effective and more flexible.
I agree with you. I'm surprised they didn't close that door.

Let's go back to "before wave 5" time.
Basically, with ONE order marker you can:
A) move one hero 5-6 spaces and then make one attack
B) move 3-4 squad members and then make 3-4 attacks
A few Army Cards go above and under that with special abilities. Bonding will allow you to move and attack with one hero and a squad. Some figures have double attack, etc. Everything is fine so far as long as it is balanced by the price of the unit.

But, I am concerned. :?

Now we have the possibility to move 8 figures and make 4 attacks with bonding (Nakita agents & Gorrilinators / Blastatron & Gladiatron).

And now theses rats:

So, to sum this up, with only ONE order marker (and some luck) you can:

a) move 4 rats 14 spaces, or
b) move up to 12 rats (4 rats 6 spaces and 8 rats 4 spaces), or
c) move one rat up to 22 spaces (and others rats few spaces in the same time).

That is quite a big potential!

And this doesn't even include the strategic advantages listed on previous pages like moving two rats out of range when a rat is attacked or on the contrary, closing on squad figures that haven't shoot yet in order to force them to attack your rat...

Aranas


Is Hasbro going down the "power creep" slope?
I sincerely hope not...

I haven't tried wave 5 units though. Will do it this weekend.
They may be ok and priced in line with their power. Lets see.

Aranas

[Jormi_Boced]

I really don't think we have to worry about power creep right now at all. If we look at the current play environment, I would say that we have had no power creep. Some of the most powerful units in the game are still from the Master set. If anything they are unpower creeping with the new releases.

A couple places I can show these statements holding true. We have had a tournament won with an all masters et army. The Gen Con Championship finals were between an army that had all figures from Wave 1 and 2 and the other was Master set and Wave 2.

The first wave had all inclusive bonding like the Romans with Warlord bonding. Waves since have had neutered bonding like Utgar's Orders or Ullar Warlord bonding.

[Grungebob]

I'll expand upon this and say that the rat-herding technique in itself is not that powerful. It is a great way to move around the board, but has risks. There has been complaints all along about Ranged units having a power advantage, and it is rather refreshing to hear about a unit that is melee and is causing some attention.

[Jormi_Boced]

I'll expand upon this and say that the rat-herding technique in itself is not that powerful. It is a great way to move around the board, but has risks. There has been complaints all along about Ranged units having a power advantage, and it is rather refreshing to hear about a unit that is melee and is causing some attention.

I completly agree. I think this wave they were trying to hinder range a bit more with the rats and the Nakita Agents.

[Aranas]

I'll expand upon this and say that the rat-herding technique in itself is not that powerful. It is a great way to move around the board, but has risks. There has been complaints all along about Ranged units having a power advantage, and it is rather refreshing to hear about a unit that is melee and is causing some attention.

I completly agree. I think this wave they were trying to hinder range a bit more with the rats and the Nakita Agents.
Theses are very good points Grungebob and Jormi_Boced.

Aranas

[kenjib]

I'll expand upon this and say that the rat-herding technique in itself is not that powerful. It is a great way to move around the board, but has risks. There has been complaints all along about Ranged units having a power advantage, and it is rather refreshing to hear about a unit that is melee and is causing some attention.

I completly agree. I think this wave they were trying to hinder range a bit more with the rats and the Nakita Agents.

Kind of like how Raknar's Vision seemed to be geared around providing counters to squads, and also how they fix old units that don't work so well with new units coming out later (gorillinators and nikitas, for example). It seems like one of the design strategies is to use each new expansion to rebalance the game.

[Grungebob]

and also how they fix old units that don't work so well with new units coming out later I don't agree with this. It is more likely that they have planned these units well in advance and that they are not really needing fixing at all.... Just more pateience on our part.

[LilNewbie]

and also how they fix old units that don't work so well with new units coming out later I don't agree with this. It is more likely that they have planned these units well in advance and that they are not really needing fixing at all.... Just more pateience on our part.

I agree. Units are in development for a long time and there appears to be a lot of forethought in bringing new units to the public on how they will affect gameplay, older figures and unreleased figures.

Newb.

[kenjib]

I bet that they tweak them on the way out the door though, based on how the units are playing out since they first designed them. It would be kind of silly not to.

[MacG]

I agree, but clearly what to us is "a fix" is sometimes to them something preplanned.

For example, I've heard complaints that Spartacus is too expensive. What do you want to bet that there's a squad (unique? common?) of gladiators coming with whom he's been tested?

Grimnak's orc boost power was literally useless until wave 1.

Stuff like that.

[CornPuff]

MacG is right. Whether its a fix or preplanned is a matter of perspective. Us lowly scapers don't always have insider knowledge that would enable us to think about it one way or another.

IF the gorillinators planned to be a target of move bonding, then they were overcosted (as many suspected) before wave 5. However, the preplanned fix was on the way.

[jaques]

Has anybody pointed out the handy effect of stationing a rat by the summoning glyph, if there's one on the board?

[Hendal]

We were using the roborats last night and my bro had brunack carry one. We where all talking about it later and thought since they are the only small figures in the game to date, shouldn't brunack or the griffon be able to carry 2 of them instead of one.
Our one thought was how would the rats hold onto the creatures while being carried., but we figured they would just dig there claws in enjoy the ride.

We may try it a few times to see if we like it as a house rule.

Just wondering on others thought on this idea, or has anyone else thought of this before.

Jaques - I have seen that idea here way back though, if the rat on the glyph dies another scatters to get back on the glyph, really an amazing ability...

[mathguy]

Has anybody pointed out the handy effect of stationing a rat by the summoning glyph, if there's one on the board?

That's a nice idea. It's like having a remote control for the summoning glyph. (For anyone not following, the idea is that you would be able to perform a summon even if your order marker is not on the rats; just have the activated unit attack your own rat.)

[Chimpy]

MacG is right. Whether its a fix or preplanned is a matter of perspective. Us lowly scapers don't always have insider knowledge that would enable us to think about it one way or another.

IF the gorillinators planned to be a target of move bonding, then they were overcosted (as many suspected) before wave 5. However, the preplanned fix was on the way.



But the preplanned fix might have been 4 waves away instead of two. They could have planned a Primadon hero that would have recieved the gorrilnator bonding. (around wave 8 or so.) Then they saw the fan reaction to the Gnators and had to find a way to speed up the process of making them better. So they took the next unit coming from Vydar and gave them the Gnator bonding instead.

Now I am not saying that this did happen just that it could have happened. The process for development isn't as smooth as people have stated. A good example is the elves. They were originally scheduled for wave 3, but for either asthetic or ability reasons they still needed to be perfected by the time wave 3 came along. It is very reasonable to think that they "improvise" their orginal plan as they go along.

[jaques]

Has anybody pointed out the handy effect of stationing a rat by the summoning glyph, if there's one on the board?

That's a nice idea. It's like having a remote control for the summoning glyph. (For anyone not following, the idea is that you would be able to perform a summon even if your order marker is not on the rats; just have the activated unit attack your own rat.)

It also makes people think a third time about attacking your rats. (They were probably already thinking twice!)

[Aranas]

I tried the rats yesterday in a game involving wave 5 only figures. They are indeed very fun to play. I tried the sequence that allows you to move 4 rats 14 spaces with only one order marker and succeeded without loosing a rat! (I have been lucky since I rolled a skull 3 times out of four but blocked every attack. BTW, it is strange to roll both attack dice and defence dice while your opponent is waiting.) You should have seen my opponent's face of disbelief!! :shock:

Later, I tried the sequence to move 12 rats and succeeded again, loosing only one rat in the process. Add to that the free move pass my opponent gave me while attacking my rats! :D

Back them up with ranged units and enjoy! :twisted:

Aranas

[Revdyer]

<laughing> Oh, wonderful, Aranas, wonderful!

[Riggler]

I never thought I would say a unit with a 1 attack was underpriced, but these rats just might be.

I wonder if attacking your own rats with your own rats even crossed playtesters' minds as it appears the designers seem to consider this bad form. The rats already have a great base movement. As has been demonstrated in previous posts, the movement gets insane if they attack themselves.

I would bet if they do a third edition of the rules that they will eliminate a player's ability to target their own figure.

I love the rats. I think they are awesome. But I also think they are a bargain at 40 points WITHOUT using a friendly fire tactic. And even without the friendly fire tactic, these guys are still great glyph holders. And they are still great at tying up ranged units.

As it stands I am saddened with the impact of these guys if they are allowed to attack themselves.

[Grungebob]

I never thought I would say a unit with a 1 attack was underpriced, but these rats just might be.

I wonder if attacking your own rats with your own rats even crossed playtesters' minds as it appears the designers seem to consider this bad form. The rats already have a great base movement. As has been demonstrated in previous posts, the movement gets insane if they attack themselves.

I would bet if they do a third edition of the rules that they will eliminate a player's ability to target their own figure.

I love the rats. I think they are awesome. But I also think they are a bargain at 40 points WITHOUT using a friendly fire tactic. And even without the friendly fire tactic, these guys are still great glyph holders. And they are still great at tying up ranged units.

As it stands I am saddened with the impact of these guys if they are allowed to attack themselves.This reminds me of Warhammer 40K. While I was into that game, there were some ways that jerky players could exploit some of the rules. I remember there was a technique where you could charge a mounted unit forward that had a long narrow base, and you could then turn the base sideways in an effort to engage multiple figures. This would allow you to attack more figures if you happened to have extra attacks. Nobody would do it because it just seemed to go against the spirit of the game. Now there was ONE guy who would always come to the tournaments and bring an army made entirely of mounted troops. He would charge them accross and immediately turn them sideways. It was not against the rules but then again nobody liked the guy and nobody would play friendly games with him... He depended on tournaments as that was the only way he could get a game. . It was like he was paying people to play a game with him.

[reapersaurus]

I would bet if they do a third edition of the rules that they will eliminate a player's ability to target their own figure.Think again.

Craig personally endorsed the idea of attacking your own figures, even when the dangers of theme, sportsmanship (like GB's example) and future dangers were brought up.

This isn;t something that is a surprise to the designers - I don't know why anyone would assume the playtesters didn;t do this - if they didn;t play the Rats like this, then they are by definition not doing their job, and the pool must be broadened so that problems like this surface during the playtest phase - what else is a playtest group for?

I assume the designers knew exactly what they made, got the playtest results that confirmed their design intent, and decided to publish it.

They obviously wanted a rat squad that can go lightning fast and dominate any scenario that is based on glyph capture, etc. without so much as a D20 roll. At least the Airborne Elite are not a sure thing, and these rats are if you draft at least 2 squads.

[Chimpy]

I would bet if they do a third edition of the rules that they will eliminate a player's ability to target their own figure.Think again.

Craig personally endorsed the idea of attacking your own figures, even when the dangers of theme, sportsmanship (like GB's example) and future dangers were brought up.

This isn;t something that is a surprise to the designers - I don't know why anyone would assume the playtesters didn;t do this - if they didn;t play the Rats like this, then they are by definition not doing their job, and the pool must be broadened so that problems like this surface during the playtest phase - what else is a playtest group for?

I assume the designers knew exactly what they made, got the playtest results that confirmed their design intent, and decided to publish it.

They obviously wanted a rat squad that can go lightning fast and dominate any scenario that is based on glyph capture, etc. without so much as a D20 roll. At least the Airborne Elite are not a sure thing, and these rats are if you draft at least 2 squads.


My thoughts exactly.

[Riggler]

I would bet if they do a third edition of the rules that they will eliminate a player's ability to target their own figure.Think again.

Craig personally endorsed the idea of attacking your own figures, even when the dangers of theme, sportsmanship (like GB's example) and future dangers were brought up.

That's too bad, IMO.


I don't know why anyone would assume the playtesters didn;t do this - if they didn;t play the Rats like this, then they are by definition not doing their job, and the pool must be broadened so that problems like this surface during the playtest phase - what else is a playtest group for?


I don't know how playtesting works with the Heroscape line. I know I've heard Craig say units are in "development" for what sounds like at least a year. But in development doesn't mean playtesting.

I know that former Wizards of the Coast (Hasbro) designers for the D&D line said about two years ago that playtesting time for the D&D had become practically non-existant.

I haven't seen any indication of how much or how long playtesters playtest on Heroscape. If anyone has, I'm sure someone will point it out to me.

All that said, maybe they did do as you say and this was their intent of these units. Let's assume they did.

Rats attacking themselves with a 1 attack against a 4 defense is pretty good odds, especially considering you may be able to control heigth for more defense using this rat attack tacky tactic.

I can't think that these guys are a little overpowered with being able to attack themselves. The reason I say that is I'd still love them and use them regularly without them attacking themselves.

[kolakoski]

I'm shocked, shocked, that there is no Unit Strategy Review for these guys! So I'll have to throw my gauntlet down in this ring. Exactly 2 squads of Deathreavers (in some cases even only 1) is the optimum number of squads of Deathreavers (assuming 500 points). Any more and you lose more in flexibility than you gain in additional common life.

[nyys]

There's no USR for a lot of units.

[Xn F M]

I'm shocked, shocked, that there is no Unit Strategy Review for these guys!

Of course there isn't.

Step 1) draft rats.

Step 2) move them into anoying places.

Step 3) shoot.

There isn't much more to it that that. (Unless you're playing the totally awsome rats+Taelord army).

[I LIKE PI!]

There isn't much more to it that that. (Unless you're playing the totally awsome rats+Taelord army).

My brother won a tourny with that, not only can you not kill them, they can kill you!:twisted:

[Shockma Ranyk]

Here's my favorite rats-oriented army.

120 Rats x3
360 Hydra x3
20 Marcu

Not bad for 500. The Hydrae can reach over the rats to get whatever they're clogging up. Marcu grabs glyphs.
I've never played a combo of Tae and rats. That might be something worth trying.

[dok]

Here's my favorite rats-oriented army.

120 Rats x3
360 Hydra x3
20 Marcu

Not bad for 500. The Hydrae can reach over the rats to get whatever they're clogging up. Marcu grabs glyphs.
I've never played a combo of Tae and rats. That might be something worth trying.
Dragonmaster384 went ratsx4, Hydrax3 for 520 at Gencon in general wars. It appears (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1172044&postcount=44) that he went 3-2.