taming Major Q9

[headcold]

My group believes that Major Q9 is perhaps too cheap or too strong. I think they may have a point. We're trying to decide if we should make a house rule about him.

Anyone else?

[gamjuven]

I like Q9 the way he is. He goes about 50/50 with me. Sometimes he can be awesome and decimate an army, but others he can just curl up and die. I'll give you an example.

I played happyjosiah with an army consisting of Q9, AE, Drake, Krav Maga. He had Charos, Kelda, Saylind, Guilty, EOV. The first game I played against him Q9 did nothing: He missed his queglix attack because it only has 3 attack and can't be modified. He also just flat out died while fighting charos. The next time I played, however, he decimated charos, EOV, and Saylind.

That just happens a lot. I love his defense and life, and his queglix attack is awesome against small figures, but it can be rough on heroes and all it takes is for you to start rolling 1 skull on the special attack to start to realize how he doesn't always earn back his points. I say keep him as he is and keep playtesting him for now.

[Eclipse]

I don't think he's really that powerful. 3 attacks of 3 to 9 attacks of 1 really isn't any better than what most squads can put out for fewer points. Any unit with ~4 DEF can take him out pretty reliably in my experience, even without using his shoulders to block LoS.

[Tiberius]

I think this is how a 180 point figure should be, hard to kill, and do a decent amount on offence. Think about it, it is the same as any three roman squads plus some. I play tested him last night and though he took a beating I had a rough time hurting anything with the quielix gun special. I had more luck with his normal attack. But for 180 points, I expect great things.

[Rajaat the Warbringer]

I also always found him to be pretty balanced. I've seen him turn a map into a field of death, and other times miss every shot and die quickly.

[LilNewbie]

Q9 is powerful but I've seen him fall in one turn. His power also makes him a big target for extermination (just like poor old Nilf.) 180 points is a lot to put into a figure so it's nice that he can take a little punishment. His 4 wounds make him more durable than the DWs but he is not invincible.

Newb.

[happyjosiah]

Yep. Pretty well balanced I'd say.

[Riggler]

I've only played him once. It was my last game and he ruled the board. About half way through the game I began using his special attack by rolling 1 dice nine times. While it annoyed my opponent to death, it was affective. He killed from 1-4 figures a turn, and he was shooting at squads with some pretty good defenses.

Is he overpriced or overpowerful? Not at all in my opinion. This match ended in my winning in a landslide, but my opponent didn't have a balanced army. Too many melee squads, not enough ranged for the map. (And I took out his Mimring in the first round with Sylvarris).

[jcb231]

The one die nine times is a great Krav killer....in nine rolls they usually whiff.

[headcold]

Thanks for all the responses. I'll be sure to bring these up at the next game. After reading these and recalling a broader scope of my Q9 encounters, I agree that he is probably well balanced.

[Drumline3469]

The only character overpower for their price IMO is Krug. Q9 is perfect I think. He take take a lickin and keep on ticking, but is easy enought ot ake down if you do it right.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

He's perfect in price and stats/abilities.

It's his should pads that gets him into all the controversy. :D



The only character overpower for their price IMO is Krug.

I think Charos could be 250. He's a beast and a steal at 210. Amazing that the design team had him at 190 points in playtesting! :shock:

[Pilgrim]

I've played with Q9 or played against Q9 in half a dozen games now. And yeah, he's not invincible, but he always does huge damage in our games, easily killing over own point value. Barring a streak of terrible rolls, I do think he's underpriced or overpowered slightly. I'd put him around 200pts.

I think Q9's natural enemy is Krug. Krug can rush Q9, get hit, get ticked, then move in for the kill.

HEH - you really think that much of Charos? Hmmm. I usually find that a couple rounds of ranged squads firing at him will take him down. I took him out the other night only losing 6 knights (approx 105 pts worth of figs). Tell me more of why you like him so much . . . .

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

HEH - you really think that much of Charos? Hmmm. I usually find that a couple rounds of ranged squads firing at him will take him down. I took him out the other night only losing 6 knights (approx 105 pts worth of figs). Tell me more of why you like him so much . . . .

I guess we're hijacking this thread now, but you can have your Charos Negated by Morsbane and the dragon king is still a nightmare, that's why! :D
But the biggest reason for his price tag change would be his longevity on the field. Charos is a nearly complete 'Bloodlusted' Tagawa with 9 lives who can fly. That's three times the Tagawa in life. Charos seems to last a long time in our games. Especially with Kelda.



I usually find that a couple rounds of ranged squads firing at him will take him down.
I suppose. But then again, ranged units could pretty much do that to any unit. :?

In the end, I'm sure he's perfect at 210, but he sure seems like 250 point to take down. :lol:

[Jason]

I don't think Charos is overpriced, ranged can take him down without a ton of difficulty. Additionally, McDirk Warriors and Minions absolutely own him.

Dw7k is a nice counter to Q9. Odds of him whiffing with 7 dice + stealth dodge are incredibly rare + he sould either take off 1/2 or more of q9's life.


-Krug owns almost any big hero since he beats every other unit in the Game 1 on 1 (except Sudema)

[Robotech Master]

I've had varying degrees of success per game with either rushing Q9 with Jotun or flying in with Nilfheim. Engaging Q9 with a heavy hitter and constantly attacking at close range with 6+ Attack dice per attack is the best way to waste away that 7 defense and 4 life.

My friend loves Q9; the last three games we've played he's drafted him all three times; the first two times he was a killer who played a major role in my defeat; the third time he got bad defense rolls; I attacked him twice with Nilfheim over two turns--the first turn I rolled only 3 skulls. He rolled 1 shield out of 9 (he had the defense +2 glyph). Second turn I rolled 3 skulls again and he again rolled 1 shield out of 9.

Q9 is balanced I think because his stats, while powerful on paper, are capable of drastically changing depending on your luck. His special attack can vary per game from "Destroy all enemies in sight" to "can't inflict a single wound on a guy with 4 defense." And his defense can range from "invincible" to "Marro warriors shot him down in one turn." He's powerful, but if you're rolls don't go right then you'll have felt bad for paying 180 of your points for him.

[DemoDougie]

Yep. Pretty well balanced I'd say.

Yup, I'd agree. One minute instant death and destruction, next minute spontanious combustion!



:blowup:

[P_J_Keller]

I do think he's underpriced or overpowered slightly. I'd put him around 200pts.

I think Q9's natural enemy is Krug. Krug can rush Q9, get hit, get ticked, then move in for the kill.



Pilgrim, I agree and respectfully disagree with you.

I think Q9 is a little underpriced and 200 would be more accurate.

Regarding Krug being the counter to Q9, I always looked at it the other way around. I have seen Q9 consistently stay out of range of Krug all the while blasting him with his regular attack

[jman]

once when i was playing a death stalker rolled 3 attack dice and used maul and Q9 lost 3 lives.

[Pilgrim]

once when i was playing a death stalker rolled 3 attack dice and used maul and Q9 lost 3 lives.

Can deathstalkers maul a large figure?

Good point JP. I suppose the Q9 v Krug matchup comes down to how many order markers you can commit to either. Krug needs a 2-to-1 on the order markers to have a shot at rushing Q9 (presuming he's worked his way up to him prior to the rush).

[Naiko]

once when i was playing a death stalker rolled 3 attack dice and used maul and Q9 lost 3 lives.

Can deathstalkers maul a large figure?

Nope.

Maul
When rolling attack dice against a small or medium figure, if a Deathstalker rolls a skull on every die, the defending figure receives a wound for every skull, and cannot roll any defense dice

[markwars]

Any other thoughts on Q9 counters? Krug seems a likely choice, but what else is out there?

[Rÿchean]

I like Crixus against Q9, if you can get him there

[markwars]

How many Q9's do you think we'll see at next month's Tourney?

[Point Blanks]

With the addition of the Blastatrons, there might be a few armies that might use him.

As for a counter, perhaps Brunak carrying a Nikita Agent?

[Sweetcurse]

Krav, Microcorp are useful against him.
Krav can stealth dodge and micricorp can ignore the wounds.

Elite Onix have a good defense and frenzy.

Sentinels are good too, since Q will have a hard time killing them on the apporach.

Dead Eye id not bad either.

Gulp, Sacred Band with Parmenio's death defy may survive long enough to base him. And as had been said, Krug works too.

Nakita's smoke is not useful as it only works for normal attacks, so queglix owns them , Same for Drake,deathreavers and ninjas.

[Nwojedi]

i recall taking Q9 down in one turn with 2 4th mass on high ground. He can be easy prey, but I agree he should be a little more costly. I mean look at stone queen. She's 140 points and dies easy.

[Point Blanks]

But she can take out any unit with one roll of the die... Sudema's points are justified. Her weakness is her defense. All units have something that keeps them from being unstoppable.

[Nwojedi]

have you EVER rolled that thou? That's like relying on Negsoka's mindshackle. Least he can hold his own as a fighter and gets it in addition to his attack. Her on the other hand, doesn't.

so you have negasoga 90 points. essentially does the same thing, but has to be next to the character, but you get to keep the character

she has a weak range of 4, weak tit besides, and has to use her attack for the special. for 50 points more.


I don't see her being justified at all.

[Point Blanks]

Her ability works four times as often on heroes, fourteen times better for squad units, it has a range of four, works wonders with G-trons.

NGS is meant to be a "tank" unit, while Sudema is a suppourt unit that can bypass huge defenses. NGS' power is not reason enough to draft him, while Sudema's is.

Try out these armies, and then comment on Sudema:

400
2X G-Trons
Krav Maga
Sudema

500
3X G-trons
2X Blastatrons
Sudema

[markwars]

Sudema's Stare of Stone is definitely better than NGS's Mind Shackle in terms of actual chances at success. Her's is much more final though.

I think that for the 140 points to be justified she needs to have a higher a attack OR defense rating.

And then add the Stare of Stone AND an attack on her turn.

As she is now I would never draft her. But then again I play almost strictly 400 point armies on small maps.

[Rÿchean]

How many Q9's do you think we'll see at next month's Tourney?

approx 40 participants - I bet only 10% bring a Q9 army, so i say 4

[happyjosiah]

Sudema wins against Q9 30% of the time according to the matcup calculator. This assumes that Q9 goes Quiglex 3/3/3 (his best odds). Even then, if Sudema goes first she will win 40% of the time. Not bad considering he costs 40 points more.

[markwars]

How many Q9's do you think we'll see at next month's Tourney?

approx 40 participants - I bet only 10% bring a Q9 army, so i say 4

My bet is 25%. So 10 will be there.

[DoesntCompute]

Krav, Microcorp are useful against him.
Krav can stealth dodge and micricorp can ignore the wounds.


I couldn't disagree more about the Krav being a good counter to Q9. In fact IMO it is the opposite. Q9 is one of the best counters to the Krav. When Q9 goes into 9-single dice attacks, he kills the Krav. Q9 is going to average 4-5 single die hits and the Krav have a 29% chance of wiffing their 3 defense dice for each hit. It is likely that Q9 will take down 1 or more Krav per turn.

My favorite Q9 story... I attacked and killed all three Krav with my first 8 rolls and then needing a target attacked a 1-life Drake. I managed to kill Drake as well. It was a good night.

[jcb231]

Right you are....Kravs fall easily to Q9!

[markwars]

What ranged squad doesn't?

[Point Blanks]

None... with range squads notorious for having low defense, it's only sooner or later before one of those nine attacks take out some of them.

[markwars]

I guess the Zettians would be about as close to a ranged Q9 counter as there is. And I'm not too keen about adding them to my army.

[yagyuninja]

Sudema's Stare of Stone is definitely better than NGS's Mind Shackle in terms of actual chances at success. Her's is much more final though.

I think that for the 140 points to be justified she needs to have a higher a attack OR defense rating.

And then add the Stare of Stone AND an attack on her turn.

As she is now I would never draft her. But then again I play almost strictly 400 point armies on small maps.
I just made a custom squad of Queen's handmaidens for this exact reason. I never draft Sudema (and rarely braxas) because of the big targets on their foreheads. The squad protects them and helps them out a bit:
(Check out the bottom version of the Handmaidens)
http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=2719&start=30

I also agree with Q9 as a Krav killer. I killed all three Krav with him too, in my very first game with him. It was glorious.

[Hendal]

I have been using raelin with Q---9 lately and have been having gret results, those 2 extra defense dice go very nicely into my defensive plans...

[markwars]

I have been using raelin with Q---9 lately and have been having gret results, those 2 extra defense dice go very nicely into my defensive plans...

What size army are you playing? And what else are you playing alongside those two?

[Rÿchean]

Don't know what he is playing with Q9 and Raelin but Crixus, MWs come to mind as a good fit at an even 400.

:-D

[markwars]

Q9 - 180
Raelin - 80
Crixus - 90
Marro Warriors - 50

Interesting combination there. You get the big gun of Q9 if you need it, plus he's very effective against any ranged fire you may face. You get extra souped up defense on the already stout Crixus and Q9. And your army has decent range. It certainly seems like an awesome army to defend a castle with or any other spot on a map.

I may have to give that one a shot this weekend. In fact replace the word "may" with the word "will".

[Maximum Heat]

I've never tried Q9 before but after this post I'm trying him post haste.

[whitedog45]

Most of the times I tried Q9 he drew alot of fire early on and I haven't been able to see exactly whatr he vcan do with good rolls.

[Hendal]

playing em with
q-9
raelin
thorgrim
samari

I got q-9 for range or 3 attacks /round, got thorgrim for protecting raelin and then giving the arua to whoever is left and in shape, but it is hard to kill the big robot with 9 defense, its fun for the whole family

or change the bottom two to krav and roborats, depends on the board and the enemy, more firepower and teh roborats are glyph getters, and fun to scatter about

[markwars]

I'm going to be trying some of these suggestions about today. I'll post results.

[happyjosiah]

Played against a Q9 in the SWOGG tourney. He fell before taking a turn under an onslaught of Airborne.

[InfinityMax]

We had a lot of Q9-itis today. I played him, Markwars ran him out a time or two, and I someone else had him, too. He's tough, but he got beat down more than once.

I think the trick is to make sure you've got lots of attacks, or lots of attack dice. For instance, both times I played Markwars today, he wounded Q9 with arrow gruts. And Velenne cold smoked him with Braxas. Jotun can take him out in one swing. He's tough, but he's not impervious to harm. You have to keep after him, because sooner or later, he's going to blow that defense roll, and 4 life isn't a lot.

[tidus 360]

To me it looks like he makes deathwalker 9000 look like nothing. D9000 costs 140 points and all of his stats are like half of this guy, and his life is 1! I really think this guy is a bit overpowered, i mean what is the point of using D9000 when you can get this guy who is like quadruple times better for only 40 more points. You can do the same thing this guy has with D9000..... but there is an exception with Q9 you can perform it but with more freedom to choose who to attack.

Well since he is an official figure he must have been playtested so i wouldn't make a house rule against him.

The thing is though, D9000 is a hard choice to draft himself, with Q9 who would ever take that risk with D9000 when you can get this buffed up guy for 40 more points....

[spiteofthedice]

I completely agree.

Also, congratulations to the thread. This is its 400th birthday. ;)

[dok]

DW9k finished second in monster mash! Not a bad showing for the old guy.

[winonavampire]

Also, congratulations to the thread. This is its 400th birthday. ;)

:rofl:


I was thinking something very similar... However, if he started a new thread, you know someone would have pounced on him for not using the search function.

You just can't win.

Back on topic of Q9, it was fun to read this thread, because it was before the Q9-Raelin-Rat army...

The one post of "I have had good luck with Q9 and Raelin" was funny, because that is like the top of the tier now days.

[Chardris1287]

Q9 just doesn't inspire the 'fear' in me when my opponents use him. Lets see, Just this past game, we played general armies. I got Einar, and he got Vydar. So It was me with 3x capuan gladiators, sparticus, crixus, and retarius. VS Braxas, Q9, Laglor, KMA and James Murphy I won the fight with only using 2 squads of Capuan Gladiators and Retarius, both which were inspired by Sparticus. My opponents flaw was sending his units at me 1 at a time, while I swarmed them with my gladiators. But I don't think Q9 killed more than 2 Gladiators and put like 2 wounds on Retarius. Even titans can fight when those who are weak bind together.

[flameslayer93]

To me it looks like he makes deathwalker 9000 look like nothing. D9000 costs 140 points and all of his stats are like half of this guy, and his life is 1! I really think this guy is a bit overpowered, i mean what is the point of using D9000 when you can get this guy who is like quadruple times better for only 40 more points. You can do the same thing this guy has with D9000..... but there is an exception with Q9 you can perform it but with more freedom to choose who to attack.

The thing is though, D9000 is a hard choice to draft himself, with Q9 who would ever take that risk with D9000 when you can get this buffed up guy for 40 more points....

DW9k has a lot going for him especially while compared to Q9. First of is the obviously higher defense. That will stop almost all ranged attacks easily. Look at probability, it says that DW9k will typically roll 3 shields. Most ranged attacks can't get through that. If you are playing the DW's as juggernauts, your going to get them killed too quickly. He has average movement(5) and a pretty strong attack(4/3on the special) and range(7) for a reason. Move the Deathwalker around! It is not a stationary turret. Melee will kill him, but most melee is either too weak to effectively use their slightly superior speed to hurt him(Izumis) or their move is too low to hit him(KoW, Tarns, even WoA).

Lets look at sculpts and spaces now. Both have large and Soulborg immunities. But Q9 is double hexed, and DW9k is single hexed. Q9 has shoulder pad restrictions, while the DW9k doesn't. Q9 has a shorter ranged special attack, while DW9K has his pick of guns without the range trouble. Q9 is troubled on terrain with lots of obstacles, while DW9k is just fine since he only has to see one target(his card does not say that he has to see the rest of the explosion) as long as your foes stay close by. And many synergies require adjacency.

Queglix is an excellently designed attack, but is still wont get triple skulls all of the time. It will often get 1 or two, but any counter-draft army will be sure to have some high defense characters in their builds since Q9 will probably be nabbed first or second. It also has the absolutely worst range for a juggernaut to ever have. 6 range means that a 5 move person can move in. DW9K has both the high defense and enough move to actually reach Q9 in a turn(provided that the ground is flat enough or DW9K has it move boosted, easily from Eldgrim's spirit). His relatively strong normal attack can probably do a little damage to whatever thinks to get in his way. Don't forget about the nasty "I can't reach Q9" scenario. His long range will probably still reach another target and before your turn is up, you can also fire at height down onto another target(nothing says this isn't possible, especially since if can't reach Q9 there must be something in your way).

But ultimately, the best way to not only shred through tons of foes with DW9K but also keep him from ever being attacked is to keep him away from melee(and maybe even range if your good with the robot) by running away and firing at targets just as like he was an A+ piece...

Note: For anybody who thinks that DW9K is too risky to use, I say actually use him as your main piece by giving him 1 or 2 OM's a round while moving him. He's a different ranged piece and has to be played differently than other ranged pieces to be effective. The Zettians are an excellent addition to DW9K but they should be dumped to die in the mid-game while holding glyphs. Use the Syvarris like range once or twice then get them away from DW9k. You don't want to slow him down.

[ABOMINATION]

<Very detailed reasoning to why DW9K is really good>
I have one word that defeats your whole argument:

Glassjaw. ;)

[flameslayer93]

<Very detailed reasoning to why DW9K is really good>
I have one word that defeats your whole argument:

Glassjaw. ;)

Keep the robot moving. It isn't the same type of ranged figure as other ranged figures. It loses to melee and win against ranged.

Never fear glassjaw is only applicable if you won't be attacked;). Thanks for the nicely put quote:D.

[Frylock]

Sorry, but this "never get attacked" strategy isn't very convincing. Sure you can use rats to protect him (recommended), but rats alone aren't going to save your Deathwalker. As far as keeping him moving and outranging your opponent, those aren't terribly effective with DW9K's average stats. Units like Syvarris or the KMA make much better use of the run-and-gun strategy. Furthermore, this strategy can really only help against melee, and then only 5 or less move melee. And against range, no amount of running away is going to save him from being attacked. In fact, that strategy ONLY works against melee.

I understand your point that ranged attacks are often weaker than melee attacks. However, ranged units also generally have more opportunities to attack per OM. DW9K does fear big melee attacks (like Drake), but in my experience he falls easiest to multiple attacks of 3-4. In other words, when fighting DW9K (or any DW for that matter), quantity beats quality.

[LMB]

All units have their place and their weaknesses.

Me and Little LMB were doing a demo game at a local FLAGS and we'd put together a few armies that were designed to lure in new players with their cool factor rather than synergies. So I was using an army that had DW8k, zettians, and some agents. A guy showed up with a horde of Ashigaru and Kato. In some situations he would have have a field day, but DW8k just ate up his low defense Ashigaru's with his Rapid Fire special attack. In that game the Deathwalker earned his points and then some.

At a tournament here in KC earlier this year Little LMB took out Q9 with Jotun in 1 well rolled attack. Though in causal play I've used Q9 alone (he was my entire army) to decimate 11 squads of zombies.

So, in my experience the glass jaw death walker can prevail and the invincible Q9 can fall. It all comes down to who they are facing and how they're played... along with a little luck!

Personally, I don't cringe at seeing Q9 (I just make his demise a priority) and I don't laugh at a death walker (though I do chortle a bit when he falls). I try to play smart and use units with the best chance at success regardless of who I'm facing. To me, heroscape is a very well balanced game, and I try to keep that idea in mind when selecting units for a given task (to upset that balance... :lol:).

[flameslayer93]

Sorry, but this "never get attacked" strategy isn't very convincing. Sure you can use rats to protect him (recommended), but rats alone aren't going to save your Deathwalker. As far as keeping him moving and outranging your opponent, those aren't terribly effective with DW9K's average stats. Units like Syvarris or the KMA make much better use of the run-and-gun strategy. Furthermore, this strategy can really only help against melee, and then only 5 or less move melee. And against range, no amount of running away is going to save him from being attacked. In fact, that strategy ONLY works against melee.

I understand your point that ranged attacks are often weaker than melee attacks. However, ranged units also generally have more opportunities to attack per OM. DW9K does fear big melee attacks (like Drake), but in my experience he falls easiest to multiple attacks of 3-4. In other words, when fighting DW9K (or any DW for that matter), quantity beats quality.

Mind telling me how many 7-range minimum squads/double attackers who's base value is below 140 have an attack of 3-4? WTF won't work because the users must get closer(effectively making them too weak to get around his defense normally). You can use snipers, but in any game, I still have a whole army to take them on(plus I doubt that I'll give them height, you'll have to move them in my army's grips. Syvarris has great attack power, but if I'm afraid of him, DW9k can still say normal attack on Syvarris(if you can shoot me, more than likely I can can shoot you). That 2(or maybe 3 or even higher thanks to synergies, but whose to say I won't aim for the cheerleader;), I mean it's not like I have to have my DW9k kill an entire army by himself) defense won't hold well to 4(or depending on the map/boosts 5) attack dice. KMA suffer from the problem of not only being unique, but I could also keep DW9K in the back and have the rest of my army take out any threats. Let's just say we aren't gonna be rolling in 140 point armies any time soon are we?;)

For his screen, you don't need rats (at least you couldn't use them for a screen). You just need an army that can handle themselves(attack wise) without too much work. I recently played a game with EI and they did relatively well. My opponent couldn't tell who to attack, the expensive squaddies or the robot blowing up their forces. I made the decision for them(the EI:twisted:). I also tried him with an Air Elemental. Not only did that give DW9k a safe zone(while it stayed alive) to fire off a free bomb/attack of 4 without worrying about a melee attack coming his way for a turn, it gave me enough time to choose my next targets on the next round.

Effectiveness isn't the same for Q9 and DW9k. For Q9, his effectiveness is mowing down entire armies(otherwise his screen is in deep crap especially if they are rats). For DW9k, his effectiveness lies in moving him 5 spaces every turn and firing at something with his 7 range.

I do have a question how can't you protect DW9k from range? Are you using maps with obstacles, like the hive? Armies without range defense like big figures with pretty low costs(kyrie with those big wings) or range blocks(bait, Nakita)? DW9K is large, but he is pretty easy to conceal if I wanted to(in my experience with him at least).

[marroking1]

I have had luck with this army against Q9
4xEI-560
Atlaga-650

It eats rats for breakfast. And if you get you get really lucky you can kill the Major with Atlaga.

[Geryon]

Q9 should cost 20 points less and have 5 defense.
He is designed way to powerfully, much like rats, fen hydra, and old Raelin

[dok]

Q9 should cost 20 points less and have 5 defense.
He is designed way to powerfully, much like rats, fen hydra, and old RaelinI love that the Fen Hydra has joined the overpowered list.

Just dropping Q9 to 6 defense would take him out of A+, although he would still be really good.

[flameslayer93]

Q9 should cost 20 points less and have 5 defense.
He is designed way to powerfully, much like rats, fen hydra, and old RaelinI love that the Fen Hydra has joined the overpowered list.

If Q9 had 5 defense and cost 200 points, I don't think I would ever take Q9 over Q10.

Just dropping Q9 to 6 defense would take him out of A+, although he would still be really good.
Actually I think he meant for Q9 to be 160...

[Frylock]

Mind telling me how many 7-range minimum squads/double attackers who's base value is below 140 have an attack of 3-4?
You don't need 7 range to keep up; all you need is a threat range (move plus range) of 7. Stingers have a threat range of 10, and they work great against DW.
WTF won't work because the users must get closer(effectively making them too weak to get around his defense normally).
True, but DW9K can only attack one per turn, whereas say 4th mass will be pelting him 12 times per round with attacks of 2-3. Plus, eventually DW will run out of room on the map, at which point the Mass can have a hayday.
You can use snipers, but in any game, I still have a whole army to take them on(plus I doubt that I'll give them height, you'll have to move them in my army's grips. Syvarris has great attack power, but if I'm afraid of him, DW9k can still say normal attack on Syvarris(if you can shoot me, more than likely I can can shoot you). That 2(or maybe 3 or even higher thanks to synergies, but whose to say I won't aim for the cheerleader;), I mean it's not like I have to have my DW9k kill an entire army by himself) defense won't hold well to 4(or depending on the map/boosts 5) attack dice. KMA suffer from the problem of not only being unique, but I could also keep DW9K in the back and have the rest of my army take out any threats. Let's just say we aren't gonna be rolling in 140 point armies any time soon are we?;)
Whose to say I won't have other things in my army to take care of those things in your army who are going to take care of the KMA? You said DW is good against range, if so he needs to be able to handle the KMA.
For his screen, you don't need rats (at least you couldn't use them for a screen). You just need an army that can handle themselves(attack wise) without too much work. I recently played a game with EI and they did relatively well. My opponent couldn't tell who to attack, the expensive squaddies or the robot blowing up their forces. I made the decision for them(the EI:twisted:). I also tried him with an Air Elemental. Not only did that give DW9k a safe zone(while it stayed alive) to fire off a free bomb/attack of 4 without worrying about a melee attack coming his way for a turn, it gave me enough time to choose my next targets on the next round.
In that situation, I would also go after the EI. They can attack 6 times per turn, whereas DW can only attack once. He doesn't have enough offensive output to justify his glassjaw most of the time. Even in games where he has performed relatively well, he still has never earned his points back (for me). That's not to say he can't; I'm sure he can. It's just he can't do it consistently.

Effectiveness isn't the same for Q9 and DW9k. For Q9, his effectiveness is mowing down entire armies. For DW9k, his effectiveness lies in moving him 5 spaces every turn and firing at one figurewith his 7 range.
You pretty much just summed up the difference between the two borgs. ;)

I do have a question how can't you protect DW9k from range? Are you using maps with obstacles, like the hive? Armies without range defense like big figures with pretty low costs(kyrie with those big wings) or range blocks(bait, Nakita)? DW9K is large, but he is pretty easy to conceal if I wanted to(in my experience with him at least).
I don't really understand what you are saying. In your original post, you said that DW was good against range, and you also said that in order to stay alive he should avoid attacks by keeping at max range. Those two things are somewhat contradictory. Even if your DW attacks my Stingers 7 spaces away, that stinger only has to move two spaces to retaliate. Against range, DW will be attacked even with the running and gunning. Really that strategy only works against slow melee heroes, and at best it's a stall. As far as obstacles, just remember that if you are hiding behind a ruin so as my Stingers can't shoot at you, you also cannot shoot at them as they approach from both sides. Obstacles work two ways, you know. Double edged sword and all that. ;)

Really though I would use DW a lot more if he had better offensive capability. But one attack per OM usually won't cut it, and unless he gets a start zone bomb (unlikely) or is facing something like Orcs or Romans, he probably won't be enough of a threat to merit many attacks.

[Geryon]

Q9 should cost 20 points less and have 5 defense.
He is designed way to powerfully, much like rats, fen hydra, and old RaelinI love that the Fen Hydra has joined the overpowered list.

Just dropping Q9 to 6 defense would take him out of A+, although he would still be really good.

Fen Hydra joined the overpowered list as soon as his card was announced. It was pretty blatantly obvious.

[Crazybob]

My opponent had major Q 9 and DW9K on a tower that was really high up. I was worried about him being up there since I could not harm him very easily. I found the perfect job for the mind flayer mastermind. his major and deathy decided to jump off the tower and weren"t doing much at the bottom. I see why the mindflayer mastermind is going to be very useful