Wave 5 stats (now with pics too)

[mathguy]

As I said in the other thread, I went to a Walmart that previously had crappy
HS stuff (that's my reverse psychology strategy that has paid off before in
April when finding TT) and found a whole set of Wave 5.
Since everyone here is impatient (as expected), I will spend some of my
work time typing these in. You'll all have to wait til tonight to see
the pics since no cameras are allowed here.
I am going to use abbreviations to speed up my typing.
I will remove typos and put in rest of information later.
Better yet, I will post pics later. [done]
Gotta run to lunch now.

The format will be LIFE-MOVE-RANGE-ATT-DEF followed by abilities.
The BASIC info will be: planet, collector's numbers out of 26, and basic move-range-att-def.

Deathreavers
1-6-1-1-4 SMALL-3 (The first small figures!!) 40 pts
Scatter: After a Deathreaver you control rolls def dice against a norm att,
you may move any 2 Deathreavers you control up to 4 spaces each.
Disengage:
Climb X2: may double their height in terms of movement up or down.
BASIC: Alpha Prime. 17,18,19,20. 6-1-1-4.

Nakita Agents
1-5-6-3-3 120 pts
Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control
that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal
attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you
roll a 13 or higher, all Nakita Agents you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita
Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting
figure's turn.
Engagement Strike 15: Iff an opp's small or medium fig moves adj to a Nakita
Agent, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the opp's fig
receives a wound. Figs may be targeted only as they move into engagement
with a N A.
Gorilla movement Bonding: May move 3 gorillinators you control up to 7 each.
BASIC: Earth. 11,12,13. 5-6-3-3.

Warriors of Ashra
1-5-1-3-3 (Ullar) 50 pts
Elves! (these were the amazon like figures)
Defense Agility: When a Warrior of Ashra rolls def dice against a norm att
from an adj fig, one shield will block all damage.
BASIC: Feylund. 14,15,16. 5-1-3-4.

Blastatrons
1-5-7-1-2 60 pts
Galadiatron Movement Bonding: May move 4 gladiatrons you control up to 5 spaces.
Homing Device: When attacking a non-adj fig, add 1 attack die for
every Soulbourg who follows Vydar that is adjacent to the defending fig.
Alpha Prime. 1,2,3,4. 5-7-1-2.

Deathstalkers
1-7-1-3-5 (Large 5) 100 pts
Maul: When rolling att dice against a small or med fig, if a Deathstalker
rolls a skull on every dice, the defending fig receives a would
for every skull, and cannot roll any defense dice.
BASIC: Alpha Prime. 5,6,7,. 7-1-4-5.

Kozuke Samurai
1-5-1-5-3 (unique) 100 pts
Charging Assault: Any or all Kozuke Samurai may add 3 to their Move num as long
as they are unengaged prior to moving. Kozuke Samurai mus be able to move
adj to an opp's figure in order to use Charging Assault.
CounterStrike:
BASIC: Earth. 24,25,26. 6-1-5-3.

Ninja's of the Northern Wind
1-6-1-4-3 (unique) 110 pts
Disappearing Ninja: If a Ninja is attacked with a norm att and at least one
skull is rolled, roll the 20-sider to disappear. If you roll 1-11, roll
defense normally. If you roll 12 or higher, that Ninja takes no damage
and instead may move up to 4 spaces. Ninjas can disappear only if they
end their disappearing move not adj to any enemy figs.
Ghost Walk:
Disengage:
BASIC: Earth. 21,22,23. 6-1-4-3.

Spartacus
5-5-1-6-4 (Einar) 200 pts
Gladiator Inspiration: If all order markers for a round are placed on
Gladiator army cards, and at least one Order Marker is placed on
Spartacus, then all Gladiators you control (except Spartacus) become
inspired. Inspired Gladiators add 1 to move, att, def for the rest of the
round.
BASIC: Earth. 10. 5-1-6-7.

Crixis
5-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator) 90 pts
One Shield Defense: When rolling def dice, if Crixis rolls at least
one sheild, the most wounds Crixis may take for this attack is one.
BASIC: Earth. 9. 5-1-5-6.

Retiarius
4-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator) 90 pts
Net Trip 14: After moving and before attacking, roll the 20-sider.
If you roll a 14 or higher, any small or med fig attacked by Retiarius
this turn may roll no more than 1 die for defense.
BASIC: Earth. 8. 5-1-6-5.


============================
Here are pics of the cards.
============================
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/reavers.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/agents.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/ashra.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/blast.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/stalkers.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/samurai.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/ninja.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/spartacus.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/crixus.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/retiarius.jpg

=============================
Here are pics & closeups of the figures.
=============================
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/overall.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup1.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup2.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup3.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup4.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup5.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup6.jpg

Enjoy, everyone!

Post edited to include pics. Edited 2nd time to put in missing pic. Edited 3rd time to include basic side info. Edited 4th time to include points in text.

[markwars]

:bowdown:

[allskulls]

THANK YOU, MATHGUY!!!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

YOU KICK MAJOR BUTT, MATHGUY! THANK YOU!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[damja]

OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG!

You are the man!
:banana:

[bad_calvin]

thanks man.. you are awesome! :0)

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Nakita Agents 1-5-6-3-3
... ...Gorilla movement Bonding: self-explanatory.

WTF?

[markwars]

Can you also add each unit's cost?

[yagyuninja]

YES! KING MATHGUY!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Spartacus 5-5-1-6-4 (Einar)
Gladiator Inspiration: If all order markers for a round are placed on
Gladiator army cards, and at least one Order Marker is placed on
Spartacus, then all Gladiators you control (except Spartacus) become
inspired. Inspired Gladiators add 1 to move, att, def for the rest of the
round.


WE GET FRICKIN' SPARTACUS!!!!!

http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Pastore_Investigation_of_%209-11/spartacus.jpg

[yagyuninja]

Movement bonding: Before taking a turn with NA, you may first make a normal move with any squad of gorrilanators you control?

[K/H_Addict]

you lucky luck person you, math guy!

what do you want for the ninjas and samurai? they are the most appealing to me, followed closely by the nakita agents.

[Jandars_Hope]

I'll kiss your feet for all eternity!

[thehandofzarquon]

Yay! Thanks mathguy!

[Lakai]

So they do exsits! Thank you

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Can you also add each unit's cost?

heh, heh, and maybe some types/personalities? Sorry, give us an inch and will attempt for that mile. :oops:

[Annerios]

Thank you for taking the time to do this! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Spartacus! :banana: Too cool!

Prepare for all of the "I am Spartacus" jokes and routines during games. . .

[AgentX-127]

THANKS

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[Dragonslayer]

Cool, wave 5... Hasbro is able to properly count to six :D

Thanks mathguy!

[Finrod]

No, I'm Spartacus! er...

Thanks, mathguy!! You rock more than all the GenCon attendees!

(at least until one of them actually provides PHOTOS of the cards....)

[allskulls]

Every single unit is da bomb!

Nakita Agents...saweeet!

Samurai with 5 attack and charge...gotta be worth more than Tagawa.

Ninja disapear! Nakita & Ninjas together!

Blastatrons utilizing Gladiatron claws!

That Climbx3 is the answer to the small question. The new swarm...scatter!

Gladiators are solid!

Warrior elves can go toe to toe with anybody!

Them wolves are gonna be killer in my armies...all skulls all day!

[Jandars_Hope]

Those einar gladiators aren't half bad! me wantie!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Let's see now, Warriors of Ashra (Sarah!) - they're gonna be able to fend off Krug, Jotun! :shock:

[yagyuninja]

Every single unit is da bomb!

Nakita Agents...saweeet!

Samurai with 5 attack and charge...gotta be worth more than Tagawa.

Ninja disapear! Nakita & Ninjas together!

Blastatrons utilizing Gladiatron claws!

That Climbx3 is the answer to the small question. The new swarm...scatter!

Gladiators are solid!

Warrior elves can go toe to toe with anybody!

Them wolves are gonna be killer in my armies...all skulls all day!

^ This is all true.

[CupidsArt]

Is it Just me or are the Nakita Agents the BEST COVER EVER. Syv just got some new buddies, :twisted:

I also cannot wait to use the Ninja, YES!

Oh and Mathguy, Thanx a Million, ;)


My Tournament Army will now change drastically!!!!

[allskulls]

Let's see now, Warriors of Ashra (Sarah!) - they're gonna be able to fend off Krug, Jotun! :shock:
Jotun will be doin some throwin!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Annerios, Nakita have Smoke Powder!

It appears we have no new power markers a la Bloodlust or Negation.

[Jandars_Hope]

Can't wait to see the cards and find out their point values! then i can start planning a huge battle!

[Bannister]

:shock:
:excited:
:D
:cool:

Bannister

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

What the hell is Gorilla Movement Bonding?!?

[hextr1p]

Well, crap! I thought I was going to be able to concentrate today at work! GAH! :x

That said, as dissapointed as I was with the sculpts, I must say that I am pretty impressed with the new abilities. :D

And now I am fiending for these new figs even more!!

[Jandars_Hope]

Im guessing you get to move all gorillas b4 moving the agents

[allskulls]

Einar is now officially here!

Then wave 6...he begins to look at the throne of Utgar...

wave 7?

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Kozuke have friggin 5 ATTACK!!!! :shock:

Butt only 3 def. :shock:

[allskulls]

Kozuke + Nakita + Raelin!

[ugly1hornedmule]

Smoke powder with anything that can counterstrike, Thank you for taking the time to do this.
woooooooooooooooooo

[Annerios]

Annerios, Nakita have Smoke Powder!

It appears we have no new power markers a la Bloodlust or Negation.

I noticed that. That is a simplified approach to what JustJohn and I tried with the smoke and smoke bomb concepts. It makes sense.

I like that simple climb ability to help the facehuggers I made. It will be better than enhancing their size just for movement purposes.

This kind of stuff is great to help refine existing customs and make them better.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Im guessing you get to move all gorillas b4 moving the agents

But are the Nakita for Jandar or Vydar? I guess Vydar. For some reason I have Jandar as their affiliation.

[CupidsArt]

Im guessing you get to move all gorillas b4 moving the agents

But are the Nakita for Jandar or Vydar? I guess Vydar. For some reason I have Jandar as their affiliation.


It's the white that makes you think Jandar, as well as the comic, but it looks like all agents go to Vydar.

[K/H_Addict]

nakita are vydar and can only move 3 gnators up to 7 spaces. the apes can't attack (to my understanding). see BoBs thread

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Im guessing you get to move all gorillas b4 moving the agents

But are the Nakita for Jandar or Vydar? I guess Vydar. For some reason I have Jandar as their affiliation.


It's the white that makes you think Jandar, as well as the comic, but it looks like all agents go to Vydar.

Exactlyl. That's what got me in the mindset. The visual-oriented person that I am. Thanks.

[happyjosiah]

mathguy is my hero

[happyjosiah]

I want to use Nilear, the Evil Twin with my Wolves. Think about it. -2 attack. Only roll 1 die. 50/50 auto-wound. 3 times. *giggles*

[CupidsArt]

I want to use Nilear, the Evil Twin with my Wolves. Think about it. -2 attack. Only roll 1 die. 50/50 auto-wound. 3 times. *giggles*


HOLY CARP!!!!


WHEN DID YOU GET HERE?!?!?!?!!?



This is a good day, stats, pics and old scapers, 8)

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Rebellious personality. 8)

[fejkl]

Thanks Mathguy! We all appreciate your work very much!

:drool:

Me wantee.

[Annerios]

Im guessing you get to move all gorillas b4 moving the agents

But are the Nakita for Jandar or Vydar? I guess Vydar. For some reason I have Jandar as their affiliation.


It's the white that makes you think Jandar, as well as the comic, but it looks like all agents go to Vydar.

Exactlyl. That's what got me in the mindset. The visual-oriented person that I am. Thanks.

The comic seems misleading, since usually you only see Ullar and Jandar units playing nice with each other. I should have known better to make that assumption based on that all too brief comic or is there more to it that was not posted in the .PDF file we have?

[allskulls]

Rebellious personality. 8)
Must be sworn enemies of the Imperials...er uh Vydar :wink:

[CupidsArt]

Rebellious personality. 8)
Must be sworn enemies of the Imperials...er uh Vydar :wink:

Bringin' Down the MAN, 8)

[allskulls]

Im guessing you get to move all gorillas b4 moving the agents

But are the Nakita for Jandar or Vydar? I guess Vydar. For some reason I have Jandar as their affiliation.


It's the white that makes you think Jandar, as well as the comic, but it looks like all agents go to Vydar.

Exactlyl. That's what got me in the mindset. The visual-oriented person that I am. Thanks.

The comic seems misleading, since usually you only see Ullar and Jandar units playing nice with each other. I should have known better to make that assumption based on that all too brief comic or is there more to it that was not posted in the .PDF file we have?
Maybe the comic will be continued and the Nakita Le Femmes will turn out to be spys!

[geddy lifeson]

sweeeeeeeeet!!! Once I get home and have some time I will have to soak alll this in and read these over thoroughly. I am pretty excited about this wave actually...not as much as wave 6 (its always more exciting with things you know even less about).

[toddrew]

Spartacus
5-5-1-6-4 (Einar)
Gladiator Inspiration: If all order markers for a round are placed on
Gladiator army cards, and at least one Order Marker is placed on
Spartacus, then all Gladiators you control (except Spartacus) become
inspired. Inspired Gladiators add 1 to move, att, def for the rest of the
round.

Crixis
5-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator)
One Shield Defense: When rolling def dice, if Crixis rolls at least
one sheild, the most wounds Crixis may take for this attack is one.

Retiarius
4-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator)
Net Trip 14: After moving and before attacking, roll the 20-sider.
If you roll a 14 or higher, any small or med fig attacked by Retiarius
this turn may roll no more than 1 die for defense.[/color]

I wasn't really looking forward to the gladiators - thought their stats/abilities would be fairly mundane, but these heroes will be a fun force - Crixis should do well against high attack/low defense figures, especially if boosted by Spartacus (H_E_H, love that movie, btw. Thanks for saving me the trouble of hunting up a pic to post :) )

[thehandofzarquon]

Spartacus
5-5-1-6-4 (Einar)
Gladiator Inspiration: If all order markers for a round are placed on
Gladiator army cards, and at least one Order Marker is placed on
Spartacus, then all Gladiators you control (except Spartacus) become
inspired. Inspired Gladiators add 1 to move, att, def for the rest of the
round.

Crixis
5-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator)
One Shield Defense: When rolling def dice, if Crixis rolls at least
one sheild, the most wounds Crixis may take for this attack is one.

Retiarius
4-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator)
Net Trip 14: After moving and before attacking, roll the 20-sider.
If you roll a 14 or higher, any small or med fig attacked by Retiarius
this turn may roll no more than 1 die for defense.[/color]

I wasn't really looking forward to the gladiators - thought their stats/abilities would be fairly mundane, but these heroes will be a fun force - Crixis should do well against high attack/low defense figures, especially if boosted by Spartacus (H_E_H, love that movie, btw. Thanks for saving me the trouble of hunting up a pic to post :) )

They might be a nice 400-point army, seeing as the total is 380 points :P

[Eclipse]

Very cool, I'm far more excited about this set than I was before.

The Deathreavers seem a little weak. Hopefully their cost is low enough to have hordes of little metal rats. I like the Scatter ability though. It's going to cause rule havoc with Special Attacks that hit multiple opponents though...

Nakita Agents look AWESOME. They look like Squad killers to me. Their engagement strike makes them dangerous to approach with commons and that smoke bomb can completely shut down a squad of ranged units. Note it says "for the remainder of the turn", meaning that if you have a squad of ranged units and get the Smoke on the first attack, the rest cannot attack ANY of your units adjacent to the Nakita :D Charging the 4th Mass just got a whole lot more interesting.

The Elven warriors look pretty powerful. Stealth Dodge is great, and while a melee version isn't quite as good, it should let them dominate if you can get them engaged.

Blastatrons look cool, and make the Gladiatrons much better. Swarming and locking down foes before blasting away with Homing device should make them quite powerful.

Offensive Samurai! Their counterstrike seems like it's almost an afterthought, but might actually be more useful than the usual 5 DEF versions. Right now nobody bothers to attack Samurai because they're not a big enough threat to risk the Counter. These guys are a threat on their own and will probably receive a lot more melee attacks.

The Ninja look very cool. Neat ability, I'll excited to see how it plays out in practice.

Sparticus is a nice figure. Powerful on his own and makes others even better. Crixus in particular has potential. That ability should make him far sturdier than most Heros. Retiarius looks a little weak compared to the others, IMO.

Awesome work Math! Thank you thank you thank you! Do you think you could get us the rest of the generals and point costs though? I'm now far more excited about Wave 5 than I thought I would ever be :D

[yagyuninja]

Deathreavers = 40 points

EDIT: see bob's post

http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=53211#59747

[lonewolf]

Does anyone have the UPC codes from WM for the Wave 5 figs.

-- Lonewold

[thehandofzarquon]

Very cool, I'm far more excited about this set than I was before.

The Deathreavers seem a little weak. Hopefully their cost is low enough to have hordes of little metal rats. I like the Scatter ability though. It's going to cause rule havoc with Special Attacks that hit multiple opponents though...
They are 40 points. See the other thread with pics.


Nakita Agents look AWESOME. They look like Squad killers to me. Their engagement strike makes them dangerous to approach with commons and that smoke bomb can completely shut down a squad of ranged units. Note it says "for the remainder of the turn", meaning that if you have a squad of ranged units and get the Smoke on the first attack, the rest cannot attack ANY of your units adjacent to the Nakita :D Charging the 4th Mass just got a whole lot more interesting.

Interesting that that "bond" with the Gorrillanators. I hated that Sacred Band Defy Death (too unit specific), so I kinda hate this for the same reason and the other one for the blastatrons. At least let them move any Primadon :P

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Why does Utgar get MORE hound-type creatures?!? I thought for SURE the Deathstalkers would go to Vydar. :?

[allskulls]

Nakita Agents look AWESOME. They look like Squad killers to me. Their engagement strike makes them dangerous to approach with commons and that smoke bomb can completely shut down a squad of ranged units. Note it says "for the remainder of the turn", meaning that if you have a squad of ranged units and get the Smoke on the first attack, the rest cannot attack ANY of your units adjacent to the Nakita :D Charging the 4th Mass just got a whole lot more interesting.
Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.
I don't think it works against the whole squad, just the targeting figure.

[thehandofzarquon]

Why does Utgar get MORE hound-type creatures?!? I thought for SURE the Deathstalkers would go to Vydar. :?
That's what I thought too, based on they look more cybernetic than full soulborg'ish. *shrugs

[yagyuninja]

Nakita Agents look AWESOME. They look like Squad killers to me. Their engagement strike makes them dangerous to approach with commons and that smoke bomb can completely shut down a squad of ranged units. Note it says "for the remainder of the turn", meaning that if you have a squad of ranged units and get the Smoke on the first attack, the rest cannot attack ANY of your units adjacent to the Nakita :D Charging the 4th Mass just got a whole lot more interesting.
Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.
I don't think it works against the whole squad, just the targeting figure.

Interesting rules issue here. Do individual figures in a squad actually have turns? I thought you had to move and then attack with all of them?

[thehandofzarquon]

Nakita Agents look AWESOME. They look like Squad killers to me. Their engagement strike makes them dangerous to approach with commons and that smoke bomb can completely shut down a squad of ranged units. Note it says "for the remainder of the turn", meaning that if you have a squad of ranged units and get the Smoke on the first attack, the rest cannot attack ANY of your units adjacent to the Nakita :D Charging the 4th Mass just got a whole lot more interesting.
Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.
I don't think it works against the whole squad, just the targeting figure.

It also doesn't appear to work FOR the Agents themselves, despite it triggering when the Nakita are attacked :/ Unless of course, they are all bunched up... *shrugs

[hextr1p]

It also doesn't appear to work FOR the Agents themselves, despite it triggering when the Nakita are attacked :/ Unless of course, they are all bunched up... *shrugs
Actually, it does work for the Agents. MathGuy truncated some of the ability definitions. However, in the thread with Wave 5 card pics, it clearly states that the ability affects the NA.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Note it says "for the remainder of the turn", meaning that if you have a squad of ranged units and get the Smoke on the first attack, the rest cannot attack ANY of your units adjacent to the Nakita :D Charging the 4th Mass just got a whole lot more interesting.

D


nah, just the remainder of the turn for that targeting figure. I'd say the rest of the squad (if any) get a chance.

[yagyuninja]

I think all members of a squad share the same "turn".

[DJ Ducki]

Note it says "for the remainder of the turn", meaning that if you have a squad of ranged units and get the Smoke on the first attack, the rest cannot attack ANY of your units adjacent to the Nakita :D Charging the 4th Mass just got a whole lot more interesting.

D


nah, just the remainder of the turn for that targeting figure. I'd say the rest of the squad (if any) get a chance.

The rest of the squad can take shots, but that figure that targetted them originally is left saying "WTF where'd they go?" This actually makes the NA strong against singled ranged units, such as DED and Syv

[hextr1p]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

[daevablacc]

Thank you soooooooooooooooooooo much mathguy! You ROOL!!!


:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[UranusPChicago]

I like how with the Maul special ability (not Special Attack :wink: ) you will have to rethink whether to use any glyph/height/aura bonuses to attack. Maul only kicks in if all dice rolled are skulls. The ability is dependant on the outcome of the dice roll.

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

Deathstalkers
1-7-1-3-5 (Large 5)
Maul: When rolling att dice against a small or med fig, if a Deathstalker
rolls a skull on every dice, the defending fig receives a would
for every skull, and cannot roll any defense dice.


I'm suprised it hasn't been said yet:

ALL SKULLS, BABY!!!

[yagyuninja]

Does anyone else see this the way I do?

When you take a turn with a squad, you are only taking one turn. Though each figure can move and attack, each of those actions takes place during the same turn. All three figures lay claim to one turn.

[aielman]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

dang... to me that means that all figures adjacent to all NA are not targeted for the turn, so if they had 3 guys none of them get to attack.

which is interesting because it also sounds like you get to try once per targeted, but as soon as you are successful you cant be hit for the rest of the turn.

[DJ Ducki]

I like how with the Maul special ability (not Special Attack :wink: ) you will have to rethink whether to use any glyph/height/aura bonuses to attack. Maul only kicks in if all dice rolled are skulls. The ability is dependant on the outcome of the dice roll.
Still works well if you have higher amounts of dice, because who knows when you have 5 ATT dice and you roll all skulls, that's 5 unblockable hits, which takes out most general heroes like nothing

[thehandofzarquon]

I like how with the Maul special ability (not Special Attack :wink: ) you will have to rethink whether to use any glyph/height/aura bonuses to attack. Maul only kicks in if all dice rolled are skulls. The ability is dependant on the outcome of the dice roll.

Never even thought of that.... makes you kinda wish it was a special attack...

[toddrew]

I like how with the Maul special ability (not Special Attack :wink: ) you will have to rethink whether to use any glyph/height/aura bonuses to attack. Maul only kicks in if all dice rolled are skulls. The ability is dependant on the outcome of the dice roll.

I love abilities that function so!

Also, EGADS - I finally went over to BoB's thread: 200 points for Spartacus - Taelord has a rival :lol:

[toddrew]

Does anyone else see this the way I do?

When you take a turn with a squad, you are only taking one turn. Though each figure can move and attack, each of those actions takes place during the same turn. All three figures lay claim to one turn.

Yeah, but the ability says "figure's" not "figures' "

[allskulls]

Does anyone else see this the way I do?

When you take a turn with a squad, you are only taking one turn. Though each figure can move and attack, each of those actions takes place during the same turn. All three figures lay claim to one turn.

Yeah, but the ability says "figure's" not "figures' "
Yes, and the designers seem to keep wording consistant. Saying "targeting figure" is new and must be deliberate.

[yagyuninja]

Well, lets say we have three figures; A, B, and C. They have turn marker 1. You tunr over the turn marker and move all three.

A shoots, SMOKE BOMB! For the rest of his turn, the NA are untargetable.

B wants to shoot, but since it is still A's turn (all three figures share the same turn, A is just done with his actions!!!) he cannot target the NA. Darn, have to scatter those Warmadillos.

C is in the same boat as B.

That make sense?

[The Unbeliever]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

This ability eliminates the hits zones for your figures. Thus, NO RANGED ATTACKS ARE ALLOWED AGAINST ANY OF THOSE FIGURES FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE CURRENT TURN MARKER'S RESOLUTION.

This shuts down a ranged squad.

[yagyuninja]

Turn marker's resolution. Good wording Unbeliever.

[allskulls]

Deathstalkers
1-7-1-3-5 (Large 5)
Maul: When rolling att dice against a small or med fig, if a Deathstalker
rolls a skull on every dice, the defending fig receives a would
for every skull, and cannot roll any defense dice.


I'm suprised it hasn't been said yet:

ALL SKULLS, BABY!!!
Oh, you best believe I said it...from page 3...
Them wolves are gonna be killer in my armies...all skulls all day!

But thanks for the big and bold and red letters...shows my true feelings!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

This ability eliminates the hits zones for your figures. Thus, NO RANGED ATTACKS ARE ALLOWED AGAINST ANY OF THOSE FIGURES FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE CURRENT TURN MARKER'S RESOLUTION.

This shuts down a ranged squad.

See, that targeting hit zone wording I noticed right away. That is description is something new to HS abilities. I kept trying to figure out why 'no longer have any visible hit zones' would be used.

I still don't know why.

But 'targeting figure's' gives me the strong impression that it's just for the sole figure's turn. Thus, other members in the squad get a chance.



Turn marker's resolution. Good wording Unbeliever.
but it doesn't say that!

[yagyuninja]

It could be HeH. Maybe clever Genconers will get us the answers straight from the mouth of Craig. :lol:

[happyjosiah]

THE REASON WHY IT SAYS NO VISIBLE HIT ZONES:

Grenades still work. LOS not being required you see....

[thehandofzarquon]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

This ability eliminates the hits zones for your figures. Thus, NO RANGED ATTACKS ARE ALLOWED AGAINST ANY OF THOSE FIGURES FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE CURRENT TURN MARKER'S RESOLUTION.

This shuts down a ranged squad.

See, that targeting hit zone wording I noticed right away. That is description is something new to HS abilities. I kept trying to figure out why 'no longer have any visible hit zones' would be used.

I still don't know why.

But 'targeting figure's' gives me the strong impression that it's just for the sole figure's turn. Thus, other members in the squad get a chance.

I dunno, why would it matter in most cases whether or not they had no hit zones for the rest of a single figure's turn? Syv and Guilty are the only single figure cards that I can think of that attack twice at range with a normal attack... I'm in the group that thinks it negates the ability to target them with all members of that squad.

Edit: HJ brought up a good point.... except doesn't it only work against normal attacks? :P

[yagyuninja]

HAH! That's cool HJ.

[thehandofzarquon]

HAH! That's cool HJ.
Except that Grenades are a SPECIAL attack, and the power only works against normal attacks...

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

THE REASON WHY IT SAYS NO VISIBLE HIT ZONES:

Grenades still work. LOS not being required you see....

GRENADE = SPECIAL ATTACK

[allskulls]

I think the hit zone thing means for ranged attacks...but then again they could have said "not adjacent to".

[yagyuninja]

Well, smoke powder is only activated against a normal attack. It's effect could apply to grenades, but i think that's moot since the AE can't shoot and grenade on the same turn.

[happyjosiah]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Good point.

[noodles]

I go to lunch and 10 pages erupt. Good deal. Now all I need is flag bearer rules/stats and I can relax.

[thehandofzarquon]

One thing I noticed, but it's a bit rules lawyer'y is that by the wording of Gladiator Inspiration... your opponents order markers would have to be placed on Gladiators too :D

[allskulls]

Someone from GenCon needs to clear this smoke powder thing up.

Can time stop just for us scapers to hash it all out? Anybody know the magic words for such a feat?

[thehandofzarquon]

Someone from GenCon needs to clear this smoke powder thing up.

Can time stop just for us scapers to hash it all out? Anybody know the magic words for such a feat?

I don't believe anyone is a 17th+ Wizard around here. Not to mention that Time Stop only lasts 6-20 seconds :P [/poor dnd joke]

[noodles]

Someone from GenCon needs to clear this smoke powder thing up.

Can time stop just for us scapers to hash it all out? Anybody know the magic words for such a feat?

I don't believe anyone is a 17th+ Wizard around here. Not to mention that Time Stop only lasts 6-20 seconds :P [/poor dnd joke]

You're missing your start tag.

[Riggler]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

Here's my shot at explaining this ability. All these points are important in determining how this ability works.

Point 1: When does this happen? It happens when a NA or an adjacnet figure is TARGETED for a normal attack. Meaning the attack doesn't actually happen.

Point 2: It says FIGURE. It doesn't say army card, or squad, or hero or unique. It says figure.

Example: That means this: 4th Mass figure A targets a NA. Say NA roles a 15. The 4th Mass figure A cannot attack that NA. So he chooses to target an Airborne Elite five hexes away. He then shoots. Now, 4th Mass figure B gets to go. He targets the same NA as the first figure. The player controlling the NA rolls a 2. The 4th Mass figure B can then fire at that NA.

Point 3: Why does it say they don't have hit zones? It's important. Let's say Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan has higher ground and his allies have the +1 attack glyph. The player controlling Johnny decides to attack the NA, even though the NA is surrounded by friendly figures with a normal attack to get the +2 on attack. BUT, the NA player rolls a 17. No go for Johnny. Now imagine that two hexes away there is a figure (call it Airborne Elite) on even ground with Johnny (the reason he didn't fire at this figure in the first place). The player with Johnny now decides to target and use his shotgun blast on this Airborne Elite (Two hexes away from the NA, so not impacted by the smoke powder). He fires and the shotgun blast also impacts figures that happen to be both adjacent to the Airborne Elite AND those figures adjacent to the NA.

[thehandofzarquon]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

Here's my shot at explaining this ability. All these points are important in determining how this ability works.

Point 1: When does this happen? It happens when a NA or an adjacnet figure is TARGETED for a normal attack. Meaning the attack doesn't actually happen.

Point 2: It says FIGURE. It doesn't say army card, or squad, or hero or unique. It says figure.

Example: That means this: 4th Mass figure A targets a NA. Say NA roles a 15. The 4th Mass figure A cannot attack that NA. So he chooses to target an Airborne Elite five hexes away. He then shoots. Now, 4th Mass figure B gets to go. He targets the same NA as the first figure. The player controlling the NA rolls a 2. The 4th Mass figure B can then fire at that NA.

Point 3: Why does it say they don't have hit zones? It's important. Let's say Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan has higher ground and his allies have the +1 attack glyph. The player controlling Johnny decides to attack the NA, even though the NA is surrounded by friendly figures with a normal attack to get the +2 on attack. BUT, the NA player rolls a 17. No go for Johnny. Now imagine that two hexes away there is a figure (call it Airborne Elite) on even ground with Johnny (the reason he didn't fire at this figure in the first place). The player with Johnny now decides to target and use his shotgun blast on this Airborne Elite (Two hexes away from the NA, so not impacted by the smoke powder). He fires and the shotgun blast also impacts figures that happen to be both adjacent to the Airborne Elite AND those figures adjacent to the NA.

Hmm... good points. I was more thinking that it basically negated the attack entirely (since they have to choose to attack first, before the ability is triggered), rather than just not allowing them to target that/those figure(s). *shrugs

As a side note, those Blastatrons are going to be DEADLY. +1 Attack for every adjacent Vydar Soulborg? Yeez. There are 4 in each squad of Gladiatrons! And they get to move them before the Blasatrons! And, best of all, the Blasatrons themselves can aid in gaining attack.

[Jason]

So far I think these are the 3 best Wave 5 units:

Ninjas of the North Wind: Fast, great movement, nice attack, awesome defense

Nikita- Smoke screeen is amazing, bonding with gorillas allows one to move 6 ranged figures that turn!!!

Deathreavers- They'll be awesome to get adjacent to opponent ranged units and are dirt cheap

[thehandofzarquon]

So far I think these are the 3 best Wave 5 units:

Ninjas of the North Wind: Fast, great movement, nice attack, awesome defense

Nikita- Smoke screeen is amazing, bonding with gorillas allows one to move 6 ranged figures that turn!!!

Deathreavers- They'll be awesome to get adjacent to opponent ranged units and are dirt cheap

Those are all good and all... but I think the best squad (at least most powerful) is definetly the Blasatrons. If that attack bonus does indeed add +1 for every Vydar Soulborg adjacent, that can really add up. They'll be the ultimate Hero killers (given the 4 attacks per round and quite possibly a +4 attack bonus :shock:)

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

Here's my shot at explaining this ability. All these points are important in determining how this ability works.

Point 1: When does this happen? It happens when a NA or an adjacnet figure is TARGETED for a normal attack. Meaning the attack doesn't actually happen.

I agree. Go with someone else if your targeting doesn't succeed because of Smoke Powder 13




Point 3: Why does it say they don't have hit zones? It's important. Let's say Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan has higher ground and his allies have the +1 attack glyph. The player controlling Johnny decides to attack the NA, even though the NA is surrounded by friendly figures with a normal attack to get the +2 on attack. BUT, the NA player rolls a 17. No go for Johnny. Now imagine that two hexes away there is a figure (call it Airborne Elite) on even ground with Johnny (the reason he didn't fire at this figure in the first place). The player with Johnny now decides to target and use his shotgun blast on this Airborne Elite (Two hexes away from the NA, so not impacted by the smoke powder). He fires and the shotgun blast also impacts figures that happen to be both adjacent to the Airborne Elite AND those figures adjacent to the NA.

Nice!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Blastatrons
1-5-7-1-2
Galadiatron Movement Bonding:
Homing Device: When attacking a non-adj fig, add 1 attack die for
every Soulbourg who follows Vydar that is adjacent to the defending fig.

Mathguy, does it say 'every Soulborg' or every 'every Gladiatron'? I hope the way you have it is a mistake? It should be Gladiatrons in my opinion. BoB didn't have a pic of the Blastatrons card (or I missed it), so that's why I'm asking.

[The Unbeliever]

for the duration of the targeting figure's turn

This boils down to is whether you think the designers are defining a new game term "figure's turn" which is not the same thing as a "turn" or you think the designer's are using "figure's" purely as an adjective to identifiy which "turn" it applies to.

A "turn" is defined to be the movement and attacking of all figures associated with a given Army Card.

I believe that "figure's" is just an identifying adjective.

I do not believe that the designers are trying to define a new concept of a "figure's turn". What would a "figure's turn" be? When does it start and end? I don't think it is possible to define a term like this, because all figures on an army card move before any of them attack. The wording would have had to say "for the duration of the targeting figure's attack(s)" if it could be isolated to a single figure.

[mathguy]

Thanks for all the thanks.
I see pics have been put up in another thread, so I don't have to.
I will later go back and edit the first post to give all the stats (including points, attributes etc) - I know it's in the pics, but this text version might be friendly for people with slow machines I guess.

And by now, everyone has figured out what I meant by "self-explanatory" in my haste to type up the stuff. I literally only had so many minutes to type in the stats before I had to go out to lunch (people were waiting for me!), so I cut corners where I could. Now back to work.

Can't wait to try out these figures tonight. :)

[thehandofzarquon]

Thanks for all the thanks.
I see pics have been put up in another thread, so I don't have to.
I will later go back and edit the first post to give all the stats (including points, attributes etc) - I know it's in the pics, but this text version might be friendly for people with slow machines I guess.

And by now, everyone has figured out what I meant by "self-explanatory" in my haste to type up the stuff. I literally only had so many minutes to type in the stats before I had to go out to lunch (people were waiting for me!), so I cut corners where I could. Now back to work.

Can't wait to try out these figures tonight. :)

Not all the card's pics are up, and some aren't that great (not that I don't appreciate the effort!). But, I'm sure we can live with just text stats. :)

[Riggler]

for the duration of the targeting figure's turn

This boils down to is whether you think the designers are defining a new game term "figure's turn" which is not the same thing as a "turn" or you think the designer's are using "figure's" purely as an adjective to identifiy which "turn" it applies to.

A "turn" is defined to be the movement and attacking of all figures associated with a given Army Card.

I believe that "figure's" is just an identifying adjective.

I do not believe that the designers are trying to define a new concept of a "figure's turn". What would a "figure's turn" be? When does it start and end? I don't think it is possible to define a term like this, because all figures on an army card move before any of them attack. The wording would have had to say "for the duration of the targeting figure's attack(s)" if it could be isolated to a single figure.

:rtfm:
Pg. 12
ATTACKING
The figures on your chosen army card attack one at a time, in any order.

The designers have established according to the above except that each figure does have an individual turn within a turn.

[Taeblewalker]

Blastatrons
1-5-7-1-2
Galadiatron Movement Bonding:
Homing Device: When attacking a non-adj fig, add 1 attack die for
every Soulbourg who follows Vydar that is adjacent to the defending fig.

Mathguy, does it say 'every Soulborg' or every 'every Gladiatron'? I hope the way you have it is a mistake? It should be Gladiatrons in my opinion. BoB didn't have a pic of the Blastatrons card (or I missed it), so that's why I'm asking.

It couldn't say "every Gladiatron who follows Vydar," since they all do. If he is mistyped, then he also added "who follows Vydar" by accident, which is unlikely. Also, Major X17 is themed to go with them, and it would make no sense for him to not be included.
Major Q9 could help out, and though he (it?) isn't in the cyberclaw theme, it works well enough for the game. And let's not forget that other Blastatrons are prefectly capable of homing for their fellow squaddies!

[Finrod]

I see pics have been put up in another thread, so I don't have to.

If you are able to get pics up, please do so, as the ones in the other thread aren't so great, for the most part, and were taken of cards in the middle of a game. There's a few that aren't in that thread at all.

[The Unbeliever]

for the duration of the targeting figure's turn

This boils down to is whether you think the designers are defining a new game term "figure's turn" which is not the same thing as a "turn" or you think the designer's are using "figure's" purely as an adjective to identifiy which "turn" it applies to.

A "turn" is defined to be the movement and attacking of all figures associated with a given Army Card.

I believe that "figure's" is just an identifying adjective.

I do not believe that the designers are trying to define a new concept of a "figure's turn". What would a "figure's turn" be? When does it start and end? I don't think it is possible to define a term like this, because all figures on an army card move before any of them attack. The wording would have had to say "for the duration of the targeting figure's attack(s)" if it could be isolated to a single figure.

:rtfm:
Pg. 12
ATTACKING
The figures on your chosen army card attack one at a time, in any order.

The designers have established according to the above except that each figure does have an individual turn within a turn.

Nowhere in the manual does it define the concept of a "figure's turn".

A turn consists of moving the figures on an Army Card, and then attacking with the figures on that Army Card.

Of course all of the figures on your chosen army card attack one at a time, in any order , but all of this is taking place in the context of ONE turn.

[Pilgrim]

for the duration of the targeting figure's turn

This boils down to is whether you think the designers are defining a new game term "figure's turn" which is not the same thing as a "turn" or you think the designer's are using "figure's" purely as an adjective to identifiy which "turn" it applies to.

A "turn" is defined to be the movement and attacking of all figures associated with a given Army Card.

I believe that "figure's" is just an identifying adjective.

I do not believe that the designers are trying to define a new concept of a "figure's turn". What would a "figure's turn" be? When does it start and end? I don't think it is possible to define a term like this, because all figures on an army card move before any of them attack. The wording would have had to say "for the duration of the targeting figure's attack(s)" if it could be isolated to a single figure.

I take "targeting figure" to mean the figure that is doing the targeting. Not sure how to read it any other way, Thus to use the above example, if MA line figure 1 targets one of charlie's angels and she rolls a smoke screen, then THAT MA line cannot shoot at any other figs covered by the smoke screen. However, MA line figure 2 can target one of charlie's angels, and so smoke screen must be re-rolled.

If the language meant that NO Mass line could then attack the smoke-screen protected figs, then you have a problem, because what if you roll for the smoke screen when, say, the third MA line fig out of four attacks. What if the previous two MA line successfuly hit the angels or their adjacent allies? How can the smoke screen at that point negate attacks from the entire MA line army card? Doesn't make sense. So the smoke screen must apply to the targeting figure only, as per the language on the card. So yes, this a new concept. That's why there is new language we've never heard before, because it's a new mechanic. YAY! New mechanics!

The language about not targeting any other protected figures "during the targeting figure's turn" is meant to cover Syvaris and Guilty (double attack).

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

It couldn't say "every Gladiatron who follows Vydar," since they all do. If he is mistyped, then he also added "who follows Vydar" by accident, which is unlikely. Also, Major X17 is themed to go with them, and it would make no sense for him to not be included.
Major Q9 could help out, and though he (it?) isn't in the cyberclaw theme, it works well enough for the game. And let's not forget that other Blastatrons are prefectly capable of homing for their fellow squaddies!

Right, right, of course. But man, they're gonna be able to do some serious damage with a lot of flexibility. Thanks.

[The Unbeliever]

Another Smoke Powder abiguity:

"When ... is targeted for a normal attack"

At what time does this trigger? I.e., when are you targeted for attack?

Does it happen during Line of Sight determination? I.e., so that Smoke Powder can hide all visible hit zoes and prevent the attacker from establishing LOS? If so, then you should be able to use Smoke Powder even if the attacking figure doesn't intend to attack you.

Or does it happen after LOS has been determined, and the attacking and defending figures have been declared? In this case does the attack continue and the Smoke Poweder only affects future attacks? Or does the sudden loss of LOS cause the attack to fail, and the attacker loses their attack opportunity, because they have already declared the defending figure? Or does the loss of LOS reset the attack so that the attacker can declare a new definding figure?

I personally believe that it happens during LOS determination, and that the Smoke Powder must used before the defending figure is declared.

[Finrod]

So who's going to be first to have the battle between Gladiatrons and Gladiators? :)

[vernz]

thanks math guy we needed those stats great job

[Pilgrim]

Another Smoke Powder abiguity:

"When ... is targeted for a normal attack"

At what time does this trigger? I.e., when are you targeted for attack?

Does it happen during Line of Sight determination? I.e., so that Smoke Powder can hide all visible hit zoes and prevent the attacker from establishing LOS? If so, then you should be able to use Smoke Powder even if the attacking figure doesn't attand to attack you.

Or does it happen after LOS has been determined, and the attacking and defending figures have been declared? In this case does the attack continue and the SMole Poweder only affect future attacks? Or does the sudden loss of LOS cause the attack to fail, and the attacker loses their attack opportunity, because they have already declared the defending figure? Or does the loss of LOS reset the attack so that the attacker can declare a new definding figure?

I personally believe that it happens during LOS determination, and that the Smoke Powder must used before the defending figure is declared.

Yeah, it is ambiguous. And yet some things have to happen. 1) Attacker must indicate he's going to attack the NAs. Because if smoke roll fails, attacker must in some way be committed to making the attack. If it's just when checking for LOS, then attacker isn't really committed, 2) Before attacker throws the attack dice, NA rolls d20 for smoke. 3) If smoke roll is successful, then NA's and all applicable adjacent units are protected from the attack.

The attacker MUST then be able to target and attack other units NOT covered by the smoke power. Otherwise, the smoke power in effect covers ALL possible units on the board. What then is the purpose ofthe "adjacent character" language if in effect the attackers entire roll is blown?

[The Unbeliever]

The attacker MUST then be able to target and attack other units NOT covered by the smoke power. Otherwise, the smoke power in effect covers ALL possible units on the board. What then is the purpose ofthe "adjacent character" language if in effect the attackers entire roll is blown?

That's only because you subscribe to the "only affects this figure" thinking.

I believe the Smoke Powder affects all members of the squad that have not attacked yet.

[Pilgrim]

That's only because you subscribe to the "only affects this figure" thinking.

I believe the Smoke Powder affects all members of the squad that have not attacked yet.

Well that would be a new game dynamic as well . . .

Better to go with the plain language on the card. It says that the smoke screen blocks the "targeting figure." If it meant to say card, or all figures on the card, or all figuers that haven't attacked yet on the card, it could have said that. It says what it says - you need to make a convincing argument for WHY you won't take it as-is, and so far you have failed to do so. The only argument you've put forward is that this is a new concept. But how is that an argument against it? The concept of a "figure" is not new (as opposed to a card) and the concept of turn remaining is not new. What's new is thinking of a particular figure in a squad unable to execute an attack on its turn due to smoke. But the newness argument really begs the question.

Not being persnickity, but just trying to get to the bottom of it based on common sense reasoning. I appreciate the discussion.

[The Unbeliever]

My reasoning is based purely on the definition of the word "turn".

I know that a turn is: Move all attackers on an army card, then attack with all figures on an army card.

A "figure's turn" is turn in which that figure participates, but it refers to the entire turn. I.e., it starts before the first figure on the army card moves, and it ends after the last figure on the army card attacks.


If you can give me a reasonable alternate definition of "figure's turn", including an exact statement of when it starts and when it ends, I'll consider your interpretation of Smoke Powder.

[toddrew]

I do not believe that the designers are trying to define a new concept of a "figure's turn". What would a "figure's turn" be? When does it start and end? I don't think it is possible to define a term like this, because all figures on an army card move before any of them attack. The wording would have had to say "for the duration of the targeting figure's attack(s)" if it could be isolated to a single figure.

I think the reason why it says "turn" is to allow for the chance that an attacking Aubrien Archer could be affected by the smokescreen initially, but then if the frenzy is successful, would not be affected by the previous smokescreen roll, but a new roll would be necessary. Ugh, I hope that comes out clearer then I think it will.

To recap: I think the wording of the ability is clear that it only hides the applicable figures' hitzones from a single figure who is attacking, and only during the current turn. The targetting figure is allowed to target another figure if the smokescreen is successful, since the ability occurs before rolling attack die or dice.

EDIT: Upon further review :lol: , I think once the Smoke Powder is successful, if a squad member is doing the targeting it does prevent other members of that squad, who have yet to attack, from targeting any of the affected figures. Subsuquent squad members being part of the original targeting squad member's turn. I'll buy that :)

[Pilgrim]

My reasoning is based purely on the definition of the word "turn".

I know that a turn is: Move all attackers on an army card, then attack with all figures on an army card.

A "figure's turn" is turn in which that figure participates, but it refers to the entire turn. I.e., it starts before the first figure on the army card moves, and it ends after the last figure on the army card attacks.

If you can give me a reasonable alternate definition of "figure's turn", including an exact statement of when it starts and when it ends, I'll consider your interpretation of Smoke Powder.

The alternate definition of a "figure's turn" is something like "the remaining actions that specific figure can take during the remaining game turn." So if smoke screen is successful, that figure can still roll for an attack during the "figure's turn." However, it cannot now attack other figs protected by smoke screen.

The problem with your interp, as I stated earlier, is that smoke screen would theoretically negate any previous successful attacks by other figs on the same card as the targeting fig, by your definition of "figure's turn." The interp I and others are advocating does not have this problem because smoke screen only affects the "targeting figure" which is the wording on the card.

[boom]

Oh man, I'm loving the gladiators.

[Eclipse]

I'm in the "blocks the entire squad" camp, but I don't think Smokescreen will affect Aubrien Archers with Frenzy. Frenzy says that if successful, you can take another turn with the Archers which, to me, implies a new turn that smokescreen would not be available.

A turn is the ability to move each figure and attack with each figure (with any special abilities where stated). Each member of the squad has a unique move and a unique attack, but they share a turn. Had the card stated that the Hitzone disappears for the duration of the figure's attack, I would agree, but the full turn includes all remaining figures within that turn. It does not negate previous attacks, because at the time of that attack, a hitzone was present to determine line of sight. Later attacks do not have LOS so they cannot not attack. The ability does not negate attacks, it negates the hitzone required for LOS.

[Riggler]

A "figure's turn" is turn in which that figure participates, but it refers to the entire turn. I.e., it starts before the first figure on the army card moves, and it ends after the last figure on the army card attacks..

This is where you are getting confused. You are defining "figure's turn" based on nothing in the official rules or on any army card. Futhermore, you are taking it out of context on the army card. English is a tricky language.

For Reference:
Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

The last part in context says "for the duration of the targeting figure's turn." If the designers meant for the mechanic to work as you define "targeting figure's turn" they would have used this phrase: "for the duration of the army card's turn."

[ultradoug]

some of these are confusing-- seems they have really pushed for upgrading the complexityivitly (pretty sure that is a word) of the game. I hope to see pics of these units, so someone can hstoolkit up the cards or something.

[The Unbeliever]

By the way, I'm not sure I subscribe to my own arguments about Smoke Powder. I'm playing devil's advocate, and pointing out how poorly worded that ability is.

The "spirit" of the wording implies that this ability is meant to apply to a single figure only, that it is meant to block line of sight for that figure only for the scope of the current turn only, and that the attacking figure can redirect his attack(s). (The point value of 120 supports this interpretation. The other interpretation is perhaps too powerful.)

[Supergeek]

So, do they come with snow tiles?

[K/H_Addict]

...complexityivitly...


uhm...what?

[Thor]

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.
Um, this seems pretty cut and dry guys. It seems some are trying to make it much more complex then it has to be based on how THAT player imagens the ability working out.

"...for the duration of that TARGETING FIGURE'S turn". It's singular possesive, NOT plural. If they meant for smoke screen to block all attacks from a squad after a successful roll they could have easily just said for the duration of the turn. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Pilgrim]

Yup

[Eclipse]

If they meant for smoke screen to block all attacks from a squad after a successful roll they could have easily just said for the duration of the turn. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Except that could be taken to include the entirity of the Turn for all players. So if Player 1 attacks Player 4 in Turn 2, it could be taken to mean that Player 4 cannot be attacked from range by Player 2 or 3 either.

I maintain that a successful smoke roll will stop the attacks of each squad member who has not yet attacked in that squad's turn. The turn is shared by all squad members as long as:
A) Each figure is not allowed to move and attack completely seperately
B) The card does not specify the attack phase of that turn
C) We get an official ruling on the matter

As far as being overpowering for a 120 point unit:
How is it more overpowering to negate 3 attacks from the 55 point Roman Archers than to negate 2 attacks from the 100 point Syvarris?

[reapersaurus]

If Smoke Powder was a custom unit ability, it would be argued down as being too complex, and failing the Fiddly Threshold (tm) for HS. :headshake:

I'll give impressions about the rest of the stuff as I catch up.

[Thor]

If they meant for smoke screen to block all attacks from a squad after a successful roll they could have easily just said for the duration of the turn. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Except that could be taken to include the entirity of the Turn for all players. So if Player 1 attacks Player 4 in Turn 2, it could be taken to mean that Player 4 cannot be attacked from range by Player 2 or 3 either.

I maintain that a successful smoke roll will stop the attacks of each squad member who has not yet attacked in that squad's turn. The turn is shared by all squad members as long as:
A) Each figure is not allowed to move and attack completely seperately
B) The card does not specify the attack phase of that turn
C) We get an official ruling on the matter

As far as being overpowering for a 120 point unit:
How is it more overpowering to negate 3 attacks from the 55 point Roman Archers than to negate 2 attacks from the 100 point Syvarris?
If it was meant for all squad figures why wouldn't they have stated so? They could have said "...for the duration of that targeting squad or hero's turn". They also could have said "...for the duration of that targeting figureS' turn". They didn't do either of these though, and instead chose to go the singular possesive route. I don't see how you can take this any other way unless you are unfamilair with basic grammar. A figure's turn is one figure, not mutliples. They could have easily changed the wording to accomodate the move lasting an entire squad turn if they wanted.

[Augray]

Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die.

Joe: My archer is going to attack your orc.

Frank: Which one?

Joe: The one next to the Charlie's Angel over there.

Frank: OK. I get to roll for Smoke Powder.

Joe: Go ahead.

Frank: (rolls a 15)

If you roll a 13 or higher, all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

Frank: YES! You can't attack the orc, or any of my Charlie's Angels, or that gorilla next to the angel on the bridge, or the snake next to the angel on the road, with your archers this turn.

Joe: Bummer.


2nd Edition Rules

ON YOUR TURN
Usually, you'll do three actions on your turn, in this order:

ACTION 1. Choose and Army Card
ACTION 2. Move Figure(s) on the Army Card
ACTION 3. Attack with Figure(s) on the Army Card


All figures share one turn.

[allskulls]

All figures in a squad move and attack in 1 turn, so...

Why even specify with the word figure, why not just say the smoke powder is in effect for the duration of the turn?

[gamjuven]

Why would it be only the targeting figure anyway. I think that's what the ability says, but why only one of the squad members? They all can only attack once anyway. It seems this rule would never be used except against krug or sylvaris that have double attack or Q9. No other figure in the game can attack twice. It should be the figure or squad. Anyway, the la fem nakita agents are amazing and will probably considered to be overpowered soon enough, so many awesome abilities, smoke screen, engagement attack (which is awesome) and even a gorillinator movement bonding ability, all for a measly 120 pts. Wow. These women might be much better than krav magas, time will tell. too bad none of the stores near me update heroscape stuff (tear).

[fejkl]

While I agree with Thor, I wonder why the card is worded the way it is. I believe that if Lady Krav targets an Orc adjacent to an NA and an 18 is rolled, then Lady Krav can't attack either the Orc or the NA or any NA or any figure adjacent to any NA who are in her range during that activation. She would, however, be able to target another figure in her range.

I also think that the black Krav would be able to target the same Orc, and another Smoke roll would have to be made.

The card uses the singular possessive form of figure, just as Thor said before. I think it should be played as it's written. At least that's how my wife and I will play it.

As for Aubrien's, the Smoke roll would have to be re-rolled for each frenzy attack, since those are separate turns.

[Pilgrim]

Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die.

Joe: My archer is going to attack your orc.

Frank: Which one?

Joe: The one next to the Charlie's Angel over there.

Frank: OK. I get to roll for Smoke Powder.

Joe: Go ahead.

Frank: (rolls a 15)

If you roll a 13 or higher, all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

Frank: YES! You can't attack the orc, or any of my Charlie's Angels, or that gorilla next to the angel on the bridge, or the snake next to the angel on the road, with your archers this turn.

Joe: Bummer.


2nd Edition Rules

ON YOUR TURN
Usually, you'll do three actions on your turn, in this order:

ACTION 1. Choose and Army Card
ACTION 2. Move Figure(s) on the Army Card
ACTION 3. Attack with Figure(s) on the Army Card


All figures share one turn.

Great post Augray. Very helpful. However, it fails in the conclusion, namely that none of the archers can attack the smoke protected unit. Re-word your story with Joe saying, "My third archer is going to attack your orc next to the NA."

Now suppose that the two previous archers attacked a NA or an appropriately adjacent figure to the NA, and the NA in those previous two instances failed the smoke screen roll? And suppose in the previous two attacks the archers killed or wounded a NA or adjacent fig? The archers ALL share a turn, according to your interpretation. So in theory they should ALL have their previous attacks negated.

But of course they wouldn't. Which means that the smoke screen only affects the SINGLE archer. Which is why the card says very plainly "figure's turn" (singular).

[Teamski]

Man, these threads are spriralling out of control! 14 pages already! Thanks mathguy for the stats!

I do like the abilities of these figures even if they are lackluster themselves.......

-Ski

[markwars]

Since we were lukewarm on Wave 5's scupts but jazzed about Wave 5's powers, and we are abuzz about Wave 6's scupts....it's stands to reason that Wave 6's powers will suck. Right? :P

[gamjuven]

I think I got it. So the smoke screen only works against sylvaris and guilty. since it is a non-adjacent, normal attack. The smoke screen takes away visible hit zones for the targeting figure's (singular) turn. Once that turn is done, the women can be seen again. so only guilty and sylvaris would be affected by that, since they are the only ones that can shoot someone multiple times in one turn. oh wait, vipers and elves could possibly do it too with frenzy. The ability only seems to work for a small amount of figures. still a sweet ability, and it still will prevent being hit by that one figure, but it's turn-lasting ability only will affect a small amt of figures that we have now.

[Jandars_Hope]

I hope not!

[CupidsArt]

Since we were lukewarm on Wave 5's scupts but jazzed about Wave 5's powers, and we are abuzz about Wave 6's scupts....it's stands to reason that Wave 6's powers will suck. Right? :P

Yup your banned, j/k

Honestly I can see that happening. It's really gonna suck if it's true but hey, we can't have for everything, ;)

[markwars]

Powers and stats are easy to homerules fix. Bad sculpts and figures aren't. I'll take messed up powers anyday over another squad as ugly as the MacDirk's. 8)

[Thor]

Since we were lukewarm on Wave 5's scupts but jazzed about Wave 5's powers, and we are abuzz about Wave 6's scupts....it's stands to reason that Wave 6's powers will suck. Right? :P
Well Craig did say wave 6 was "the best yet" in his opinion so I have high hopes that the abilities are superb just like the sculpt.

[markwars]

How can Wave 6 suck? It has orcs.

'Nuff said.

[dickflea]

Mathguy Rulessss.....

[bluekitsune13]

I would say that this is how the Charlie's Angels attack would work:


"Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control
that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal
attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you
roll a 13 or higher, all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita
Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting
figure's turn."

Say I control a squad of 4th Mass on top of a hill, within range of 2 NAs at the bottom, with one of the agents being adjacent to the opponent's Agent Carr. I won initiative, so I start the attack.

1st Mass targets NA (1), and she rolls a 5. Smoke powder fails, but she manages to defend normally.

2nd Mass targets NA (1), and she rolls a 17. Her smoke powder works, so none of the other 2 remaining Mass Linemen can attack her for this turn.

3rd Mass targets Agent Carr, so the Agent adjacent to him rolls a 15, making the smoke powder a success, so neither this figure, nor the next one can attack any of the NA or Carr

That's what I think anyway.

[reapersaurus]

this Smoke ability is a sheer cluster****, rules-wise.

[feekonea]

Wow, thanks mathguy! If only the Nokia agents had cooler sculpts though...

[hextr1p]

this Smoke ability is a sheer cluster****, rules-wise.
:rofl: This made me laugh out loud.

Though I do want to know why you think this. Is it because the ability is vague in some areas?

[JELEINEN]

I'm failing to see why people are having so much difficulty with the smoke powder. If it was meant to apply to the whole squad, it would have said army card or squad. This isn't rocket science here.

[Rhydderch]

OK I'll try to clarify Smoke Powder. First I'll say I strongly believe Smoke Powder stops all normal attacks on the Nakita Agents for the turn. It is not limited to a single figure. I'll quote directly from the card and explain why:

If you roll a 13 or higher, all Nakita Agents you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

No longer have any visible hit zones... would apply for any figures which try to attack the Agents. Interesting fact: it simply says the figures no longer have visible hit zones with no reference to the attacker so once Smoke Powder activates it makes the Agents invisible to both adjacent enemies and special abilities. Not that any squad can make a normal attack then use a special ability but its cool nonetheless.

For the duration of the targeting figure's turn... Remember you do not take a turn with a single squad figure: instead you take a turn with an entire squad. To further illustrate the point remember a turn consists of the move and attack of a figure. Since squad figures move at the same time then attack, it further shows how a "figure's turn" would include the attack of the other figures in the squad.

Another way to look at it: consider the bonding ability. It says before you take a turn with <squad> so there is no terminology for a single turn for a single squad figure. The entire squad moves and attacks in a turn. They most likely used the single figure turn reference to clarify the ability since the turn versus round terminology in Heroscape has confused some people before. I have seen customs including a Halls-worthy one which have been choked up on the use of turn terminology.

Also if you think of it logically it makes the ability quite cool. The Nakita Agents only have time to use the Smoke Powder if targetted from a non-adjacent figure but once they throw their powder, it pretty much makes them invisible to both adjacent and non-adjacent figures. Makes sense for a smokescreen. Similarly once it activates it could hypothetically stop a special attack/power which requires line of sight. I say hypothetical because there is currently no way you could get a normal attack followed by a special attack/power in the same turn but we could still get later figures with this ability.

I would say that this is how the Charlie's Angels attack would work:

1st Mass targets NA (1), and she rolls a 5. Smoke powder fails, but she manages to defend normally.

2nd Mass targets NA (1), and she rolls a 17. Her smoke powder works, so none of the other 2 remaining Mass Linemen can attack her for this turn.

3rd Mass targets Agent Carr, so the Agent adjacent to him rolls a 15, making the smoke powder a success, so neither this figure, nor the next one can attack any of the NA or Carr

Actually once the Agents roll above a 13 you would no longer need to roll when the 3rd Mass targets Agent Car. The ability says:

ALL Nakita Agents you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those Agents...

So Car would already be covered =)

this Smoke ability is a sheer cluster****, rules-wise.

LOL! If it follows my interpretation I think its actual execution is neat. I think they should have passed the ability by us before they put it to print though: I'm sure we could have found a better way to word it =P

At any rate I'll play the ability my own way even if the designers say otherwise for two reasons: A) the ability IS written the way I see it and B) my way is way cooler than the "one figure" interpretation =P

[Riggler]

Nakita Agents ability in full:

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

Here's my shot at explaining this ability. All these points are important in determining how this ability works.

Point 1: When does this happen? It happens when a NA or an adjacnet figure is TARGETED for a normal attack. Meaning the attack doesn't actually happen.

Point 2: It says FIGURE. It doesn't say army card, or squad, or hero or unique. It says figure.

Example: That means this: 4th Mass figure A targets a NA. Say NA roles a 15. The 4th Mass figure A cannot attack that NA. So he chooses to target an Airborne Elite five hexes away. He then shoots. Now, 4th Mass figure B gets to go. He targets the same NA as the first figure. The player controlling the NA rolls a 2. The 4th Mass figure B can then fire at that NA.

Point 3: Why does it say they don't have hit zones? It's important. Let's say Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan has higher ground and his allies have the +1 attack glyph. The player controlling Johnny decides to attack the NA, even though the NA is surrounded by friendly figures with a normal attack to get the +2 on attack. BUT, the NA player rolls a 17. No go for Johnny. Now imagine that two hexes away there is a figure (call it Airborne Elite) on even ground with Johnny (the reason he didn't fire at this figure in the first place). The player with Johnny now decides to target and use his shotgun blast on this Airborne Elite (Two hexes away from the NA, so not impacted by the smoke powder). He fires and the shotgun blast also impacts figures that happen to be both adjacent to the Airborne Elite AND those figures adjacent to the NA.

In addition to what I said above, they would have said "army card" instead of "figure's turn" at the end of the power if they meant it. They didn't.

This ability is amazingly clear. Assume nothing. Read each and every word as it is written. Diagram the sentence if you are confused.

The ability only impacts one figure of an army card. It's really not that hard.

[allskulls]

Good points, Rhyd. I am really on the wall now...awaiting official word...from GenCon maybe? Nah.

The wording is wacky either way. I can see both sides when there should only clearly be one.

I guess comparing it to the Heroclix abilities of Shapechange and Skrull is not a good idea.

[Riggler]

For the duration of the targeting figure's turn... Remember you do not take a turn with a single squad figure: instead you take a turn with an entire squad. To further illustrate the point remember a turn consists of the move and attack of a figure. Since squad figures move at the same time then attack, it further shows how a "figure's turn" would include the attack of the other figures in the squad.

This is what messes everyone up. I notice you mention that "sqaud figures move at the same time then attack." You say that concludes that the ability affects every figure for the whole turn.

That is where your logic falters. The rules do state that each figure attacks one at a time.

[thehandofzarquon]

For the duration of the targeting figure's turn... Remember you do not take a turn with a single squad figure: instead you take a turn with an entire squad. To further illustrate the point remember a turn consists of the move and attack of a figure. Since squad figures move at the same time then attack, it further shows how a "figure's turn" would include the attack of the other figures in the squad.

This is what messes everyone up. I notice you mention that "sqaud figures move at the same time then attack." You say that concludes that the ability affects every figure for the whole turn.

That is where your logic falters. The rules do state that each figure attacks one at a time.
Attack and move seperately, yes, but they still take their turn all at the same time :P.

After all, the bonding powers don't say "Before Roman Legionnaires take their turns..." it says "Before taking a turn with Roman Legionnaries.

[feekonea]

maybe we can get one of our genconers to clear this up for us, nether maybe? I dont reallu understand whats going on, I just got back from golfing, but Im sure someone @ gencon could do us that favor.

[Thor]

The card is worded fine. For some reason people are ignoring facts and basing how the ability would work off of interpretations. Fact is the card uses singular possessive, did some of you not go to 2nd grade and learn about this in English? Why on earth would the ability say figure's (not plural posssive which would be figures') if the rest of a squad couldn't attack once smoke powder goes off?? Not only that, I am SURE they would have said squad rather then a single figure had they meant that. Seriously people, this is so cut and dry I dunno why we are discussing it 6 pages later. Stop trying to rationalize the ability based on how YOU view a turn and look at the facts.

[Rhydderch]

In addition to what I said above, they would have said "army card" instead of "figure's turn" at the end of the power if they meant it. They didn't.

At the moment army cards do not take turns. The HS designers have been careful to separate when they use the word Army Card and when they use the name of a squad or figure. It may change later but I just wanted to point it out.

This ability is amazingly clear. Assume nothing. Read each and every word as it is written. Diagram the sentence if you are confused.

Also the ability is NOT amazingly clear. If it were then no one would be confused and there would be no debate. Your interpretation may be correct but that does not make the ability very clear. In addition the problem may not be directly tied to the ability itself. I personally think it is more of a rules question. Basically we have to ask whether a single figure can take a turn within the regular squad turn.

That there is such a thing as a squad turn is confirmed by the bonding abilities. It is the single figure turn which is ambiguous.

This is what messes everyone up. I notice you mention that "sqaud figures move at the same time then attack." You say that concludes that the ability affects every figure for the whole turn.

That is where your logic falters. The rules do state that each figure attacks one at a time.

Yup that is exactly what messes everyone up. See a turn normally consists of a move and attack. Now when I say they move then attack I know they attack one at a time BUT they all move before they attack. So the turn must extend from the moment a figure moves to the point when it attacks. In this case you cannot have a single squad figure turn. Otherwise you have the situation:

-I move figure 1. Figure 1 turn until he attacks.

-I move figure 2. Still Figure 1 turn. Also Figure 2 turn until he attacks.

And so on. Creates a rather awkward situation unless we say a figure can take a half turn to move then another half turn to attack. I would also point out once again the way bonding refers to the entire squad turn. There is simply no precedent for a single squad figure turn and while it could be added I see no reason why.

Anyway at this point we might as well wait to see what the designers say. Hopefully it will not take TOO long! =P
_____

Reference for the Move and Attack of a squad from HS FAQ:

Does each individual member of the squad move and attack before the next one, or do they all move, then all attack in turn?

First you may move any or all figures on your chosen Army Card, if you want to. Then after all desired movement, you may then attack with any or all figures on your chosen Army Card.

There are also some other notes in the FAQ about how all Airborne Elite grenades must be thrown in a single turn which would only be possible if the squad takes its turn as a whole.

[Marsman]

I emailed the question to Hasbro. They have answered my rules questions about upcoming figs in the past, so we should have an answer Monday.

[Thor]

Why couldn't the move phase be considered a "turn" and then the attack phase for each figure a "turn"? Plus, by your logic you are telling me a figure that is not in motion and already/attacked/moved is still taking a turn? My biggest problem with your whole arguement (and a point a lot of people seem to be ignoring) is that the card says a figure's which is singular. If it meant a squad they could have easily said just that! Sorry guys, this argument is just rediculous :frustrated:

[Rhydderch]

The card is worded fine. For some reason people are ignoring facts and basing how the ability would work off of interpretations. Fact is the card uses singular possessive, did some of you not go to 2nd grade and learn about this in English? Why on earth would the ability say figure's (not plural posssive which would be figures') if the rest of a squad couldn't attack once smoke powder goes off?? Not only that, I am SURE they would have said squad rather then a single figure had they meant that. Seriously people, this is so cut and dry I dunno why we are discussing it 6 pages later. Stop trying to rationalize the ability based on how YOU view a turn and look at the facts.

Well if you look at the official HS FAQ it says the Airborne Elite must all throw their grenades in a single turn which would be impossible if each figure takes a separate turn. So a squad turn does exist and there IS reason for debate. Singular possessive alone means nothing.

If someone says his home (singular possessive) it does not mean it is not also his wife's home. Similarly since squads do take turns together it is entirely possible for the singular possessive to refer to the overall squad turn which includes the other figures. It really depends on the definition(s) of a turn in Heroscape.

It is not a matter of regular English and on that point I think many of us would really appreciate if you would please keep your comments pertinent to the HS discussion. I find it derogatory when you ask if "some of you" did not go to 2nd grade. Thanks so much =)

PS: Remember the ability can also be activated by a hero's attack so it would not necessarily make sense for them to say squad or to use the plural possessive.

[Thor]

If someone says his home (singular possessive) it does not mean it is not also his wife's home. Similarly since squads do take turns together it is entirely possible for the singular possessive to refer to the overall squad turn which includes the other figures. It really depends on the definition(s) of a turn in Heroscape.

It is not a matter of regular English and on that point I think many of us would really appreciate if you would please keep your comments pertinent to the HS discussion. I find it derogatory when you ask if "some of you" did not go to 2nd grade. Thanks so much =)

PS: Remember the ability can also be activated by a hero's attack so it would not necessarily make sense for them to say squad or to use the plural possessive.
Sorry if my comments offend you but I find it frusterating when people take their interpretations and apply them to abilties, thus ignoring facts and what an ability is intended to do. The thing is, if they ment the entire squad why would they so blatantly say figure's instead of simply saying squad? Because it also applies to a hero? Well then they could have easily said "...no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the squad or hero's turn". Fact is they didn't though. They deliberatly put on the card "figure's turn".

Your comment about the man's home is irrelevant. The card clearly states a single figure possessing something. Why say a single figure owns something when they mean a squad which is always more then 1 figure? Someone can say his home and it can still belong to his wife as well. Someone CANNOT say it's our kid's home unless they only have one kid or are using improper grammer.

[Augray]

Great post Augray. Very helpful. However, it fails in the conclusion, namely that none of the archers can attack the smoke protected unit. Re-word your story with Joe saying, "My third archer is going to attack your orc next to the NA."

Now suppose that the two previous archers attacked a NA or an appropriately adjacent figure to the NA, and the NA in those previous two instances failed the smoke screen roll? And suppose in the previous two attacks the archers killed or wounded a NA or adjacent fig? The archers ALL share a turn, according to your interpretation. So in theory they should ALL have their previous attacks negated.

But of course they wouldn't. Which means that the smoke screen only affects the SINGLE archer. Which is why the card says very plainly "figure's turn" (singular).

Actually I believe the roll counts for all remaining archers on the card. I think the term figure is used for consistancy. I don't think any card or rulebook talks of an Army Card having a turn. I find the wording on the card pretty clear.

[Rhydderch]

Sorry if my comments offend you but I find it frusterating when people take their interpretations and apply them to abilties, thus ignoring facts and what an ability is intended to do.

No problem. Just wanted to make sure no one starts a flame war in here. Those are messy =P

And I'm also sorry if I frustrated you. I just read the ability in a different way. I just feel it makes more sense to affect multiple figures based on the past rules of the game and also from a real life point of view.

Well I have to go but hopefully we'll have an answer from the designers soon. In the meantime try not to get too frustrated: remember we're all here to have fun! :D

[gamjuven]

Kick the tires and light the fires daddy-o. Why can't we all just get along? The new figs are sweet despite the lack of incredible sculpts. I for one can't wait to get my mittens on them and until I hear something official I'm gonna assume that the longevity of the la fem nakita agents' smoke screen only applies to those who have a nonadjacent, normal multi-attack, and that a defender will have to roll a 20sider each individual attack that turn as long as it is a different figure attacking. SOmething like that

[reapersaurus]

1) Thor - glad to see you back posting.

2) Not like this.

3) There's a reason why Ryhdd, who is VERY sharp about HS rules, has a concern (as do many others) with an ability that breaks squad figure's into seperate "turns" - because that may well break the frigging game!

I'm sure everyone realizes that squad Bonding requires a squad's "turn" to be considered lumped together. This is known as an established requirement for HS abilities to work.
If the Grut Orcs get 4 seperate turns during their activation, then by definition, Grimnak will get 4 free turns. :shock:
Plus, there's the rulebook that defines a turn as being move + attack. Hell, I didn't like it when Grungebob did it with Agent Bale - it's no better when an official unit gives action to single squad figures either.

Now they plop an ability that somehow splits apart a squad's turn into multiple bite-size chunks?

WTF?!?!?! :wtf:

Frankly Thor, it doesn't matter what the card says, since a figure's turn is incompatible with the turn mechanics in this game up to now. If they were going to completely re-write the way a turn is played, I think they'd publish it somewhere other than in one card's ability.

Talk about a rules cluster**** - that's what I was referring to.

Whoever made this rule, I question their understanding of the way the designers have defined the terms of "turn" up to now.
If this wording was directly Craig's doing, I'm shocked that he would throw such a monkeywrench into the timing and turn definitions. :headshake:

At the very least, they should not be redefining or making up new game rules based on whether they use plural or singular in one card's ability. That's not smart rules design to make singular/plural wording be THAT powerful, that it can change the way the whole game plays.

[MacG]

I'm sure everyone realizes that squad Bonding requires a squad's "turn" to be considered lumped together. This is known as an established requirement for HS abilities to work.
If the Grut Orcs get 4 seperate turns during their activation, then by definition, Grimnak will get 4 free turns. :shock:
Plus, there's the rulebook that defines a turn as being move + attack.

Frankly Thor, it doesn't matter what the card says, since a figure's turn is incompatible with the turn mechanics in this game up to now. If they were going to completely re-write the way a turn is played, I think they'd publish it somewhere other than in one card's ability.

At the very least, they should not be redefining or making up new game rules based on whether they use plural or singular in one card's ability. That's not smart rules design to make singular/plural wording be THAT powerful, that it can change the way the whole game plays.

This is a very strong argument for my point, no matter how much snide "diagram the sentence" or "pass second grade" comments come from people who aren't able to argue, just insult.

The power lasts for the figure's turn. If you think it only makes the one figure not be able to shoot, then why say "for the figure's turn" at all? Clearly, we've already said that the initial targeting figure cannot shoot at the Agent or her adjacent bodyguardees.

The reason it says for the figure's turn is to make sure we get that it makes ANY FURTHER shooting at these figures impossible.

What would you rather it say?
...For the unit's turn? (but heroes aren't units)
...for the army card's turn? (Army cards have never had turns; figures do.)
...for the entire remaining turn of the unique hero or squad, including extra shots from Deathwalker 9000 but excluding additional turns given by Frenzy? (Look at the card. It's packed full already. They didn't have ROOM to do all that.)

Clearly, the kids (8-10) in the target group will follow the TURN rule they have been given all along (as Reaper said) instead of breaking things into subturns like the grognards here.

I can see how you can imagine and interpret that this card establishes an artificial SUB-TURN sequence, but I don't buy it for a second.

[CupidsArt]

I'm sure everyone realizes that squad Bonding requires a squad's "turn" to be considered lumped together. This is known as an established requirement for HS abilities to work.
If the Grut Orcs get 4 seperate turns during their activation, then by definition, Grimnak will get 4 free turns. :shock:
Plus, there's the rulebook that defines a turn as being move + attack.

Frankly Thor, it doesn't matter what the card says, since a figure's turn is incompatible with the turn mechanics in this game up to now. If they were going to completely re-write the way a turn is played, I think they'd publish it somewhere other than in one card's ability.

At the very least, they should not be redefining or making up new game rules based on whether they use plural or singular in one card's ability. That's not smart rules design to make singular/plural wording be THAT powerful, that it can change the way the whole game plays.

This is a very strong argument for my point, no matter how much snide "diagram the sentence" or "pass second grade" comments come from people who aren't able to argue, just insult.

The power lasts for the figure's turn. If you think it only makes the one figure not be able to shoot, then why say "for the figure's turn" at all? Clearly, we've already said that the initial targeting figure cannot shoot at the Agent or her adjacent bodyguardees.

The reason it says for the figure's turn is to make sure we get that it makes ANY FURTHER shooting at these figures impossible.

What would you rather it say?
...For the unit's turn? (but heroes aren't units)
...for the army card's turn? (Army cards have never had turns; figures do.)
...for the entire remaining turn of the unique hero or squad, including extra shots from Deathwalker 9000 but excluding additional turns given by Frenzy? (Look at the card. It's packed full already. They didn't have ROOM to do all that.)

Clearly, the kids (8-10) in the target group will follow the TURN rule they have been given all along (as Reaper said) instead of breaking things into subturns like the grognards here.

I can see how you can imagine and interpret that this card establishes an artificial SUB-TURN sequence, but I don't buy it for a second.


Amen. A man with similar thoughts to myself that can easily translate them into words that can be read easily, :D

Thank You MacG!

[Thor]

The power lasts for the figure's turn. If you think it only makes the one figure not be able to shoot, then why say "for the figure's turn" at all? Clearly, we've already said that the initial targeting figure cannot shoot at the Agent or her adjacent bodyguardees.
Because some figures like Krug and Sylvarris get two attacks each activation.

If they meant an entire squads turn they could have easily just said it with an extra few words.

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn.

VS

Smoke Powder 13
When any NA you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any NA you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a non-adjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all NA you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those NA, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the squad or hero's turn.
This would have worked perfectly as far as I am aware. No hit zone means nothing to shoot regardless if the figure has multiple attacks. Frenzy, I believe, says take ANOTHER turn.

I can see how you can imagine and interpret that this card establishes an artificial SUB-TURN sequence, but I don't buy it for a second.I think they said turn because the actions of one figure in a squad has to be called something. It has nothing to do with the designers trying to break how a turn is defined I think, I beleive it was just called a turn to label a single figure's actions.

[mathguy]

I just edited the first post to include pics (reasonable size pics) of the cards as well as of the figures.

Enjoy!

[mathguy]

I just played my first game with these figures.
It was an ad hoc 3 player game.

The ninja's ability is fun.

The small Deathreavers can be used in very interesting strategic ways: when one of them gets hit, you can scatter two to retreat defensively (subject to disengagment) or to move forward offensively to get higher ground and/or engage more figures.

The Blastatrons/Gladiatrons combo is obvious, so as to boost the Blastatrons' attack.

Unfortunately I didn't see the Agents' smoke screen come into play since they were constantly hit with special attacks or adjacent attacks only.

The female elves are great. They can withstand high adjacent attacks.

It is tough to kill Crixus quickly, with his ability.

[Hahma]

I just played my first game with these figures.
It was an ad hoc 3 player game.

The ninja's ability is fun.

The small Deathreavers can be used in very interesting strategic ways: when one of them gets hit, you can scatter two to retreat defensively (subject to disengagment) or to move forward offensively to get higher ground and/or engage more figures.

The Blastatrons/Gladiatrons combo is obvious, so as to boost the Blastatrons' attack.

Unfortunately I didn't see the Agents' smoke screen come into play since they were constantly hit with special attacks or adjacent attacks only.

The female elves are great. They can withstand high adjacent attacks.

It is tough to kill Crixus quickly, with his ability.

Thanks Mathguy for the time and effort you put into getting the pix and info to us.

I am confused by one thing though, it's Crixus's ability. How often would he take more than one wound per attack anyway even w/o rolling a shield? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, sorry if this seems to be such a stupid question.

[mathguy]

I am somewhat on the fence with regards to whether the smoke screen affects just the targeting figure or the whole squad of targeting figures.
I look forward to Hasbro's official response.
For now, I lean towards the smoke powder affects the whole attacking squad. Another reason the designers might have used the phrase "targeting figure's turn" to handle the situation where more than one army card might be moving/attacking during one player's turn, say due to bonding or frenzying. (Someone might have mentioned this already?) Also, it doesn't say "during the targeting figure's attack" which would have made it clear that it was just for that figure.

For now, let's hope the designers respond quickly.

[mathguy]

I just played my first game with these figures.
It was an ad hoc 3 player game.

The ninja's ability is fun.

The small Deathreavers can be used in very interesting strategic ways: when one of them gets hit, you can scatter two to retreat defensively (subject to disengagment) or to move forward offensively to get higher ground and/or engage more figures.

The Blastatrons/Gladiatrons combo is obvious, so as to boost the Blastatrons' attack.

Unfortunately I didn't see the Agents' smoke screen come into play since they were constantly hit with special attacks or adjacent attacks only.

The female elves are great. They can withstand high adjacent attacks.

It is tough to kill Crixus quickly, with his ability.

Thanks Mathguy for the time and effort you put into getting the pix and info to us.

I am confused by one thing though, it's Crixus's ability. How often would he take more than one wound per attack anyway even w/o rolling a shield? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, sorry if this seems to be such a stupid question.

Yes, you're right, with enemy attacks of 3, Crixus's ability doesn't really help that much. In our game, he just happens to have been attacked with high attacks (Ninjas and Kozuke Samurai, some with height) of 4,5,6, and there his ability did come into play.

I'll have to update my Heroscape Matchup Calculator, so that this question can be answered precisely: how much does Crixus's ability help?

[allskulls]

Good stuff, mathguy!

Did you boost the Blastatrons' range with DW9K?

[-Zim-]

Mathguy is there anyway you could post the Samuri stat card?

I would really like to see ^^

Note: If it is there I didn't see it due to my computer being ghey

[Oprime]

Wow you guys could make a 2nd grade spelling bee ambiguios...

I have to agree with Riggler, Thor, and Pilgrim on this one. take the card for what it says. its pretty straight forward.

What strikes me about this thread is the people who generally lable others as rules lawyers are going through great pains to rationalize the cards wording in another way.

There are other instances where say 3 out of 4 squad members only get an attack, if something is blocking LOS or something. Or if the 3rd MA line fig kills the target and leaves the 4th with nothin to shoot at, he just chooses a different target. It doesnt mean hes takin another turn, hes just choosing a different target.

Think about the ability and the spirit of the game so often talked about...

fig A in front chooses to target but gets smokescreened. figure B in BACK of the charlies angel could still see if the smoke screen was in front....

[-Zim-]

Wow you guys could make a 2nd grade spelling bee ambiguios...

I have to agree with Riggler, Thor, and Pilgrim on this one. take the card for what it says. its pretty straight forward.

What strikes me about this thread is the people who generally lable others as rules lawyers are going through great pains to rationalize the cards wording in another way.

There are other instances where say 3 out of 4 squad members only get an attack, if something is blocking LOS or something. Or if the 3rd MA line fig kills the target and leaves the 4th with nothin to shoot at, he just chooses a different target. It doesnt mean hes takin another turn, hes just choosing a different target.

Think about the ability and the spirit of the game so often talked about...

fig A in front chooses to target but gets smokescreened. figure B in BACK of the charlies angel could still see if the smoke screen was in front....


I just want to see the card...

Even though I can already read it. :P

[thehandofzarquon]

Wow you guys could make a 2nd grade spelling bee ambiguios...

I have to agree with Riggler, Thor, and Pilgrim on this one. take the card for what it says. its pretty straight forward.

What strikes me about this thread is the people who generally lable others as rules lawyers are going through great pains to rationalize the cards wording in another way.

There are other instances where say 3 out of 4 squad members only get an attack, if something is blocking LOS or something. Or if the 3rd MA line fig kills the target and leaves the 4th with nothin to shoot at, he just chooses a different target. It doesnt mean hes takin another turn, hes just choosing a different target.

Think about the ability and the spirit of the game so often talked about...

fig A in front chooses to target but gets smokescreened. figure B in BACK of the charlies angel could still see if the smoke screen was in front....

Both sides are going quite out of the way to rationalize their opinion, but only one side has resorted to insults :wink:

Seriously, I see no rational reason for trying to break up a squad's turn, so I'm in with the it affects a whole squad rational.

[reapersaurus]

1) There is no such thing as a turn for each figure in a squad.
I ca not accept that as a basis, since it violates the MAster Set definition of a turn (each player gets 3 turns in a round, guys)

2) Therefore, the Smoke Powder ability is proven to be a typo. Or else the game rules have been completely re-written by one unit card.

3) Since it is obviously a typo or oversight to list "a figure's turn" (since it cannot exist within the current rulesset), I'm sure the designers will clarify (like they did on Saylind's Move vs place) what they intended to write in the first place.
I am guessing it's just another example of shoddy rules writing that was written by a designer that doesn;t know HS terminology that well, & wasn;t caught by anyone in the playtesting group (whoever that is).

They could have used the term "unit" if they'd wanted, since a unit is any army card, squad or hero.
Or they could have referred to the figure's attack. Maybe they would have had to specify a figure's attack OR special abilities. Welcome to the problem HS custom creators are having lately, Hasbro. :lol:

P.S. I don't care which side they rule on.
I just don't want to see the entire ruleset of HS fall apart, because they wanted to make believe that figures in a squad get multiple turns each activation.

[Oprime]

Wow you guys could make a 2nd grade spelling bee ambiguios...

I have to agree with Riggler, Thor, and Pilgrim on this one. take the card for what it says. its pretty straight forward.

What strikes me about this thread is the people who generally lable others as rules lawyers are going through great pains to rationalize the cards wording in another way.

There are other instances where say 3 out of 4 squad members only get an attack, if something is blocking LOS or something. Or if the 3rd MA line fig kills the target and leaves the 4th with nothin to shoot at, he just chooses a different target. It doesnt mean hes takin another turn, hes just choosing a different target.

Think about the ability and the spirit of the game so often talked about...

fig A in front chooses to target but gets smokescreened. figure B in BACK of the charlies angel could still see if the smoke screen was in front....

Both sides are going quite out of the way to rationalize their opinion, but only one side has resorted to insults :wink:

Seriously, I see no rational in trying to break up a squad's turn.

What about the ninjas and the deatharmadillo thingies, thier abilities " break up the squad". Albiet not thier turn and it is defensive, nontheless it still affects a partial squad.
Ninja move the one ninja 4 spaces.
Death armadillos move any 2 if another is attacked.

my point is I just think that its a new dynamic.

And I didn't intentionally insult anyone,and I appologize if I did.

[reapersaurus]

There are some good units in this Wave 5 (Blastatrons, Warriors of Ashra, Deathreavers, Ninjas), but there's one that stands out as being just a wreck, design-wise:

These are just my opinions, influenced by how I approach HS unit design -
Problems I see with the Nakita Agents:

1) Again, instead of a neat, thematic name, we get "Nakita" - likely an anagram of someone they know. Heck, Kitana Agents would be much cooler, if only they had Katanas....

2) Smoke Powder - what are they, ninja? It seems like some designer had this leftover from the ninjas in this wave, and didn't want to lose the ability.

2a) The ability text brings up a problem, potentially large, about figures now getting turns, not squads/units having turns.

3) Engagement Strike.
uhhh.. why do they get this power, thematically?
Again, it seems like someone designing the Samurai designed a cool Iajutsu attack, but renamed it and plopped it on these gals for no thematic reason.
Do they have concealed pocket knives they whip out unexpectedly?
Do they have a electric field that gets people when they close?
Is it a veiled statement on the pain a guy is inflicted when he gets engaged with a gal?

4) Gorillinator Movement Bonding.
OK - seriously - now this unit is getting funny, in its theme.
GORILLAS?
The LAST unit that sneaky/concealing, sexy gal agents would be teamed with are cyber-gorillas. Traditionally, NOTHING about gal-team agents and cyber gorillas goes together. What stories are they reading, where they'd get this team-up?
It just seems like a LARGE stretch to desperately try to justify the cost of the (by all objective comparative accounts) incorrectly-costed Gorillinators. :headshake:

[thehandofzarquon]

Wow you guys could make a 2nd grade spelling bee ambiguios...

I have to agree with Riggler, Thor, and Pilgrim on this one. take the card for what it says. its pretty straight forward.

What strikes me about this thread is the people who generally lable others as rules lawyers are going through great pains to rationalize the cards wording in another way.

There are other instances where say 3 out of 4 squad members only get an attack, if something is blocking LOS or something. Or if the 3rd MA line fig kills the target and leaves the 4th with nothin to shoot at, he just chooses a different target. It doesnt mean hes takin another turn, hes just choosing a different target.

Think about the ability and the spirit of the game so often talked about...

fig A in front chooses to target but gets smokescreened. figure B in BACK of the charlies angel could still see if the smoke screen was in front....

Both sides are going quite out of the way to rationalize their opinion, but only one side has resorted to insults :wink:

Seriously, I see no rational in trying to break up a squad's turn.

What about the nijas and the deatharmadillo thinies, thier abilities " break up the squad". Albiet not thier turn and it is defensive, nontheless it still affects a partial squad.
Ninja move the one ninja 4 spaces.
Death armadillos move any 2 if another is attacked.

my point is I just think that its a new dynamic.

These are bonus moves, not part of the Ninja/Deathreavers actual turn.

Unless, you are attacking your own Ninja/Deathreavers just to move them, it wouldn't activate during the squad's turn.


And I didn't intentionally insult anyone,and I appologize if I did.

You didn't, but others on that side of the argument have.

[thehandofzarquon]

There are some good units in this Wave 5 (Blastatrons, Warriors of Ashra, Deathreavers, Ninjas), but there's one that stands out as being just a wreck, design-wise:

These are just my opinions, influenced by how I approach HS unit design -
Problems I see with the Nakita Agents:

1) Again, instead of a neat, thematic name, we get "Nakita" - likely an anagram of someone they know. Heck, Kitana Agents would be much cooler, if only they had Katanas....

2) Smoke Powder - what are they, ninja? It seems like some designer had this leftover from the ninjas in this wave, and didn't want to lose the ability.

2a) The ability text brings up a problem, potentially large, about figures now getting turns, not squads/units having turns.

3) Engagement Strike.
uhhh.. why do they get this power, thematically?
Again, it seems like someone designing the Samurai designed a cool Iajutsu attack, but renamed it and plopped it on these gals for no thematic reason.
Do they have concealed pocket knives they whip out unexpectedly?
Do they have a electric field that gets people when they close?
Is it a veiled statement on the pain a guy is inflicted when he gets engaged with a gal?

4) Gorillinator Movement Bonding.
OK - seriously - now this unit is getting funny, in its theme.
GORILLAS?
The LAST unit that sneaky/concealing, sexy gal agents would be teamed with are cyber-gorillas. Traditionally, NOTHING about gal-team agents and cyber gorillas goes together. What stories are they reading, where they'd get this team-up?
It just seems like a LARGE stretch to desperately try to justify the cost of the (by all objective comparative accounts) incorrectly-costed Gorillinators. :headshake:

I don't mind the name or the Smoke Powder/Engagement Strike, but the Gorillinator Bonding is just plain rediculous. I can't WAIT to see the story justification for that :roll:

That and why the hell they were working with Syv and Drake in the comic when they are supposed to be enemies (and, no, I doubt Vydar's allegiance changed since part of the force attacking Concan's fortress are Vydar troops (Braxas is the most noticable).

[Oprime]

Wow you guys could make a 2nd grade spelling bee ambiguios...

I have to agree with Riggler, Thor, and Pilgrim on this one. take the card for what it says. its pretty straight forward.

What strikes me about this thread is the people who generally lable others as rules lawyers are going through great pains to rationalize the cards wording in another way.

There are other instances where say 3 out of 4 squad members only get an attack, if something is blocking LOS or something. Or if the 3rd MA line fig kills the target and leaves the 4th with nothin to shoot at, he just chooses a different target. It doesnt mean hes takin another turn, hes just choosing a different target.

Think about the ability and the spirit of the game so often talked about...

fig A in front chooses to target but gets smokescreened. figure B in BACK of the charlies angel could still see if the smoke screen was in front....

Both sides are going quite out of the way to rationalize their opinion, but only one side has resorted to insults :wink:

Seriously, I see no rational in trying to break up a squad's turn.

What about the nijas and the deatharmadillo thinies, thier abilities " break up the squad". Albiet not thier turn and it is defensive, nontheless it still affects a partial squad.
Ninja move the one ninja 4 spaces.
Death armadillos move any 2 if another is attacked.

my point is I just think that its a new dynamic.

These are bonus moves, not part of the Ninja/Deathreavers actual turn.

Unless, you are attacking your own Ninja/Deathreavers just to move them, it wouldn't activate during the squad's turn.


And I didn't intentionally insult anyone,and I appologize if I did.

You didn't, but others on that side of the argument have.

Niether is the smoke powder. It too is a bonus move as it is used on the opponents turn.

[Eclipse]

I don't mind the name or the Smoke Powder/Engagement Strike, but the Gorillinator Bonding is just plain rediculous. I can't WAIT to see the story justification for that

Clearly they are the personal agents of Jane Goodall :P

[thehandofzarquon]

Niether is the smoke powder. It too is a bonus move as it is used on the opponents turn.

It's not a move at all... no movement involved at all. Just LOS being blocked by smoke for a turn, nothing else. Some turns just have more figures to attack/move in them :wink:

[netherspirit]

1) Again, instead of a neat, thematic name, we get "Nakita" - likely an anagram of someone they know. Heck, Kitana Agents would be much cooler, if only they had Katanas....

Hmmmm ummm Le Femme Nikita? That not themed enough for you? :P

[Oprime]

Compare it to the ninjas disapear.

Lets say krav A shoots at the ninja, but it rolls for disapear and succedes, and moves still in range of krav B. Krav B would get a shot at the same ninja right?

Is the 2nd krav taking another turn?

No , its simply chooseing a target after krav A's sequence of events has resolved.

I know that the abilities are apples and oranges , but the priciple is the same, the opponet chooses targets after the previous figures sequence is resolved

[thehandofzarquon]

Compare it to the ninjas disapear.

Lets say krav A shoots at the ninja, but it rolls for disapear and succedes, and moves still in range of krav B. Krav B would get a shot at the same ninja right?


Is the 2nd krav taking another turn?

No , its simply chooseing a target after krav A's sequence of events has resolved.

This is actually the point of the side saying that the Smoke Screen works against all units in a squad, the other figures aren't taking a seperate turn, all their actions are contained within the same turn.

And, yes, the second Krav gets a shot at the ninja and the Ninja would get another Dissappear roll. The ninja isn't untargettable in any way, the attack used when the Disappear fails and is wasted, but it doesn't prevent any other attacks, unlike Smoke Powder, in which case, as far as I can tell, the targeting attack isn't wasted, but just can't be used on the agents or adjacent figures. And the attacks of any other squad members (including special attacks except for the Airborne's Grenades (which do not need LOS at all, moot point since I don't think they can normal attack and use their grenades in the same turn))

[geddy lifeson]

I agree with you nether, the Nakita are a little strange in their abilities and how they tie in, but I like them. I have always liked the Gorrilinators even if at 90 points they seemed of. Women bonding with gorillas seems natural though...aren't all men basically gorillas?

[thehandofzarquon]

I agree with you nether, the Nakita are a little strange in their abilities and how they tie in, but I like them. I have always liked the Gorrilinators even if at 90 points they seemed of. Women bonding with gorillas seems natural though...aren't all men basically gorillas?

Hairy, maybe. But otherwise... no. Besides... the Gorrillinators are Primadons not Gorillas. :P

[Oprime]

Compare it to the ninjas disapear.

Lets say krav A shoots at the ninja, but it rolls for disapear and succedes, and moves still in range of krav B. Krav B would get a shot at the same ninja right?


Is the 2nd krav taking another turn?

No , its simply chooseing a target after krav A's sequence of events has resolved.

This is actually the point of the side saying that the Smoke Screen works against all units in a squad, the other figures aren't taking a seperate turn, all their actions are contained within the same turn.

And, yes, the second Krav gets a shot at the ninja, as the ninja isn't untargettable in any other away, the attack used when the Disappear fails and is wasted, but it doesn't prevent any other attacks, unlike Smoke Powder, in which case, as far as I can tell, the targeting attack isn't wasted, but just can't be used on the agents or adjacent figures. And the attacks of any other squad members (including special attacks except for the Airborne's Grenades (which do not need LOS at all))

Sorry man, I dont wanna drag this out, but my example was based on the wording "figure" as I believe that it is an example as to why the other squad members would get a shot at them.

Any way I've said my peace......I will wait for official word.....

[aielman]

maybe the gorillas are pets??

[thehandofzarquon]

Compare it to the ninjas disapear.

Lets say krav A shoots at the ninja, but it rolls for disapear and succedes, and moves still in range of krav B. Krav B would get a shot at the same ninja right?


Is the 2nd krav taking another turn?

No , its simply chooseing a target after krav A's sequence of events has resolved.

This is actually the point of the side saying that the Smoke Screen works against all units in a squad, the other figures aren't taking a seperate turn, all their actions are contained within the same turn.

And, yes, the second Krav gets a shot at the ninja, as the ninja isn't untargettable in any other away, the attack used when the Disappear fails and is wasted, but it doesn't prevent any other attacks, unlike Smoke Powder, in which case, as far as I can tell, the targeting attack isn't wasted, but just can't be used on the agents or adjacent figures. And the attacks of any other squad members (including special attacks except for the Airborne's Grenades (which do not need LOS at all))

Sorry man, I dont wanna drag this out, but my example was based on the wording "figure" as I believe that it is an example as to why the other squad members would get a shot at them.

Any way I've said my peace......I will wait for official word.....

The examples are completely different, though. The ninjas are in no way unhittable (unless adjacent to Nikita Agents :P) after they use their power, of course another agent in range of a ninja who just Dissappear can get a shot in, the Ninja might just disappear again, though. The ability doesn't have a duration, it's just Instantaneous.

However, the Smoke Powder ability does have a duration: a figure's turn. An individual squad member doesn't have a turn, it takes its actions within a single Squad Turn...

[aielman]

anyone else thinking how evil a group of kravs, nakitas, asharas, and ninjas would be???

If if you DID get through the nakitas smoke screen the chance you would have of hitting anything would be slim.

Add Raelin and you would just make your opponent cry.

[Jason]

Too bad Spartacus and the Gladiators suck. The only good one in my opinion is Crixus (or however you spell it). Braxas and Nilfheim look even better now. Braxas can just destroy many of these new great defensive squads and Nilfheim's special attack bypasses many of them too

[thehandofzarquon]

anyone else thinking how evil a group of kravs, nakitas, asharas, and ninjas would be???

If if you DID get through the nakitas smoke screen the chance you would have of hitting anything would be slim.

Heh, that would be evil.

Imagine if that same army fought against itself, one damn long game :P

[aielman]

dont forget to add raelin for 460 points.

Thats... just evil

Or swap the ninjas for micro corps and add another ashara group to make it 500 pts. of pure evil

[thehandofzarquon]

dont forget to add raelin for 460 points.

Thats... just evil

Or swap the ninjas for micro corps and add another ashara group to make it 500 pts. of pure evil

Geez, why does Raelin get all the fun squads to modify? Where are Taelord's troops? Oh wait... that's the Minions and Snipers :P

[aielman]

although if I came up against that... AE and DWs all the way.

And maybe through in retriarius for good measure.


Geez, why does Raelin get all the fun squads to modify?


Because shes easy

[thehandofzarquon]

Too bad Spartacus and the Gladiators suck. The only good one in my opinion is Crixus (or however you spell it).

They all could use +1 life, and maybe like 20-30 points off of Spartacus's cost... but I definetly wouldn't say the suck.

[mathguy]

Mathguy is there anyway you could post the Samuri stat card?

I would really like to see ^^

Note: If it is there I didn't see it due to my computer being ghey

Whoops. I somehow double loaded the ninja pic. The post pics are now corrected.

[aielman]

thanks mathguy your the bomb!!

[Hahma]

Great post Augray. Very helpful. However, it fails in the conclusion, namely that none of the archers can attack the smoke protected unit. Re-word your story with Joe saying, "My third archer is going to attack your orc next to the NA."

Now suppose that the two previous archers attacked a NA or an appropriately adjacent figure to the NA, and the NA in those previous two instances failed the smoke screen roll? And suppose in the previous two attacks the archers killed or wounded a NA or adjacent fig? The archers ALL share a turn, according to your interpretation. So in theory they should ALL have their previous attacks negated.

But of course they wouldn't. Which means that the smoke screen only affects the SINGLE archer. Which is why the card says very plainly "figure's turn" (singular).

Actually I believe the roll counts for all remaining archers on the card. I think the term figure is used for consistancy. I don't think any card or rulebook talks of an Army Card having a turn. I find the wording on the card pretty clear.


I take it to mean each figure separately regarding the attacking card. With the exception of the Roman archer volley, each figure attempts an attack separatelyl. So if one Aubrien sights in a Nakita or figure adjacent to it, and the 20d is 13 or higher, that Aubrien can't attack those targets. But I think the other two may make an attempt with the defender making the 20d roll again each time. If a Micro Corps agent survives an attack from an Aubrien by rolling a 15 or higher on the 20d, that doesn't mean that the other Aubriens can't attack him. I don't see they can penalize an entire squad during on of it's members' attack attempt. What if the squad was spread ten spaces away each, is that smoke cloud THAT big as to obscure sighting from that many different angles and perhaps even elevations?

[thehandofzarquon]

Great post Augray. Very helpful. However, it fails in the conclusion, namely that none of the archers can attack the smoke protected unit. Re-word your story with Joe saying, "My third archer is going to attack your orc next to the NA."

Now suppose that the two previous archers attacked a NA or an appropriately adjacent figure to the NA, and the NA in those previous two instances failed the smoke screen roll? And suppose in the previous two attacks the archers killed or wounded a NA or adjacent fig? The archers ALL share a turn, according to your interpretation. So in theory they should ALL have their previous attacks negated.

But of course they wouldn't. Which means that the smoke screen only affects the SINGLE archer. Which is why the card says very plainly "figure's turn" (singular).

Actually I believe the roll counts for all remaining archers on the card. I think the term figure is used for consistancy. I don't think any card or rulebook talks of an Army Card having a turn. I find the wording on the card pretty clear.


I take it to mean each figure separately regarding the attacking card. With the exception of the Roman archer volley, each figure attempts an attack separatelyl. So if one Aubrien sights in a Nakita or figure adjacent to it, and the 20d is 13 or higher, that Aubrien can't attack those targets. But I think the other two may make an attempt with the defender making the 20d roll again each time. If a Micro Corps agent survives an attack from an Aubrien by rolling a 15 or higher on the 20d, that doesn't mean that the other Aubriens can't attack him. I don't see they can penalize an entire squad during on of it's members' attack attempt. What if the squad was spread ten spaces away each, is that smoke cloud THAT big as to obscure sighting from that many different angles and perhaps even elevations?

I see it as being multiple clouds, not one big one. But, the Microcorp's attack is totally different. It doesn't prevent targeting, it prevents wounds....

[Hahma]

Great post Augray. Very helpful. However, it fails in the conclusion, namely that none of the archers can attack the smoke protected unit. Re-word your story with Joe saying, "My third archer is going to attack your orc next to the NA."

Now suppose that the two previous archers attacked a NA or an appropriately adjacent figure to the NA, and the NA in those previous two instances failed the smoke screen roll? And suppose in the previous two attacks the archers killed or wounded a NA or adjacent fig? The archers ALL share a turn, according to your interpretation. So in theory they should ALL have their previous attacks negated.

But of course they wouldn't. Which means that the smoke screen only affects the SINGLE archer. Which is why the card says very plainly "figure's turn" (singular).

Actually I believe the roll counts for all remaining archers on the card. I think the term figure is used for consistancy. I don't think any card or rulebook talks of an Army Card having a turn. I find the wording on the card pretty clear.


I take it to mean each figure separately regarding the attacking card. With the exception of the Roman archer volley, each figure attempts an attack separatelyl. So if one Aubrien sights in a Nakita or figure adjacent to it, and the 20d is 13 or higher, that Aubrien can't attack those targets. But I think the other two may make an attempt with the defender making the 20d roll again each time. If a Micro Corps agent survives an attack from an Aubrien by rolling a 15 or higher on the 20d, that doesn't mean that the other Aubriens can't attack him. I don't see they can penalize an entire squad during on of it's members' attack attempt. What if the squad was spread ten spaces away each, is that smoke cloud THAT big as to obscure sighting from that many different angles and perhaps even elevations?

I see it as being multiple clouds, not one big one. But, the Microcorp's attack is totally different. It doesn't prevent targeting, it prevents wounds....

Yeah, but what if you had Syrarris/4thMass/Grut Archer or what have you, adjacent to the Aubrien who's vision is obscurred by the smoke? How does Syvarris get to attempt to attack if the other two Aubriens can't attack?

In any of those old movies where smoke bombs were used, it was only a quick flash and not a lingering cloud. I mean, how much smoke can one of those things create anyway? Technically, you can have the Nakita surrounded by three archers in a large triangle, so I can't understand how none of them get to attack, while some other friendly (on a different card) can attack (depending on the 20d) without being obscurred by the same smoke that is blinding his buddies from three different locations and angles.

[countblah]

With Spartacus, can you put the bluff marker on him, and have his power be active? It would appear that you can just put the X on him, and have all your other markers on other Gladiators, and use them while they're powered up.

If I'm wrong, I apologize. No need to give me the business.

[netherspirit]

With Spartacus, can you put the bluff marker on him, and have his power be active? It would appear that you can just put the X on him, and have all your other markers on other Gladiators, and use them while they're powered up.

If I'm wrong, I apologize. No need to give me the business.

The X Order Marker is an Order Marker.

[Hahma]

With Spartacus, can you put the bluff marker on him, and have his power be active? It would appear that you can just put the X on him, and have all your other markers on other Gladiators, and use them while they're powered up.

If I'm wrong, I apologize. No need to give me the business.

It says you must place one order marker on him, but it doesn't say that it has to be a numbered order marker. There lies 2 or three suped up attacks for one of the other Glad He Ate Her s.

[Hahma]

Why aren't you at the party in Indy Nether? Your only an hour or so away. :)

[netherspirit]

Why aren't you at the party in Indy Nether? Your only an hour or so away. :)

1.We needed to come home.
2. I wasn't invited.

I am hoping someone will call me tommorrow and let me know whats going down tommorrow night.

[reapersaurus]

1) Again, instead of a neat, thematic name, we get "Nakita" - likely an anagram of someone they know. Heck, Kitana Agents would be much cooler, if only they had Katanas....

Hmmmm ummm Le Femme Nikita? That not themed enough for you? :PWell, Le Femme Nikita was a solo show - ONE agent, super-spy thing.
She didn;t work in groups.

And she sure as hell didn;t work with monkeys. :lol:

While it's POSSIBLE it was named as an homage to the little-known foreign film-with-a-remake La Femme Nikita (which I agree might be cool), I kinda doubt it, and the link is so tenuous, unsupported in the abilities and out of place in HS that they shouldn't have bothered.

[thehandofzarquon]

Great post Augray. Very helpful. However, it fails in the conclusion, namely that none of the archers can attack the smoke protected unit. Re-word your story with Joe saying, "My third archer is going to attack your orc next to the NA."

Now suppose that the two previous archers attacked a NA or an appropriately adjacent figure to the NA, and the NA in those previous two instances failed the smoke screen roll? And suppose in the previous two attacks the archers killed or wounded a NA or adjacent fig? The archers ALL share a turn, according to your interpretation. So in theory they should ALL have their previous attacks negated.

But of course they wouldn't. Which means that the smoke screen only affects the SINGLE archer. Which is why the card says very plainly "figure's turn" (singular).

Actually I believe the roll counts for all remaining archers on the card. I think the term figure is used for consistancy. I don't think any card or rulebook talks of an Army Card having a turn. I find the wording on the card pretty clear.


I take it to mean each figure separately regarding the attacking card. With the exception of the Roman archer volley, each figure attempts an attack separatelyl. So if one Aubrien sights in a Nakita or figure adjacent to it, and the 20d is 13 or higher, that Aubrien can't attack those targets. But I think the other two may make an attempt with the defender making the 20d roll again each time. If a Micro Corps agent survives an attack from an Aubrien by rolling a 15 or higher on the 20d, that doesn't mean that the other Aubriens can't attack him. I don't see they can penalize an entire squad during on of it's members' attack attempt. What if the squad was spread ten spaces away each, is that smoke cloud THAT big as to obscure sighting from that many different angles and perhaps even elevations?

I see it as being multiple clouds, not one big one. But, the Microcorp's attack is totally different. It doesn't prevent targeting, it prevents wounds....

Yeah, but what if you had Syrarris/4thMass/Grut Archer or what have you, adjacent to the Aubrien who's vision is obscurred by the smoke? How does Syvarris get to attempt to attack if the other two Aubriens can't attack?

In any of those old movies where smoke bombs were used, it was only a quick flash and not a lingering cloud. I mean, how much smoke can one of those things create anyway? Technically, you can have the Nakita surrounded by three archers in a large triangle, so I can't understand how none of them get to attack, while some other friendly (on a different card) can attack (depending on the 20d) without being obscurred by the same smoke that is blinding his buddies from three different locations and angles.

Because Syvarris/etc's turn will come AFTER the smoke has cleared. The smoke covers the agents/adjacent units, not the ranged attackers. And have you seen the kinda smoke they use for Smoke Grenades in commando type movies? That's the kinda effect I'm seeing here.

But, regardless, you are thinking way too much outside the mechanics of it with visual/SFX interpetation to try to justify your interpetation of the mechanics. That just doesn't work, IMHO.

[netherspirit]

1) Again, instead of a neat, thematic name, we get "Nakita" - likely an anagram of someone they know. Heck, Kitana Agents would be much cooler, if only they had Katanas....

Hmmmm ummm Le Femme Nikita? That not themed enough for you? :PWell, Le Femme Nikita was a solo show - ONE agent, super-spy thing.
She didn;t work in groups.

And she sure as hell didn;t work with monkeys. :lol:

While it's POSSIBLE it was named as an homage to the little-known foreign film-with-a-remake La Femme Nikita (which I agree might be cool), I kinda doubt it, and the link is so tenuous, unsupported in the abilities and out of place in HS that they shouldn't have bothered.

:roll:

[Jason]

I like the Nikitas having G Nator movement, it follows the trend of random abilities associated with the G Nators. I'd imagine not many would have guessed at them having the Tough ability until the card was released

[thehandofzarquon]

1) Again, instead of a neat, thematic name, we get "Nakita" - likely an anagram of someone they know. Heck, Kitana Agents would be much cooler, if only they had Katanas....

Hmmmm ummm Le Femme Nikita? That not themed enough for you? :PWell, Le Femme Nikita was a solo show - ONE agent, super-spy thing.
She didn;t work in groups.

And she sure as hell didn;t work with monkeys. :lol:

While it's POSSIBLE it was named as an homage to the little-known foreign film-with-a-remake La Femme Nikita (which I agree might be cool), I kinda doubt it, and the link is so tenuous, unsupported in the abilities and out of place in HS that they shouldn't have bothered.

Smokescreen would have been a better name for the power, to be reflect the image... but the Engagement Strike fits in with the la femme agent deal, they always kicked butt when the bad guys started to get close to them, that's a nice way, different to represent it than... say... a bonus to attack.

[thehandofzarquon]

I like the Nikitas having G Nator movement, it follows the trend of random abilities associated with the G Nators. I'd imagine not many would have guessed at them having the Tough ability until the card was released

I don't think it was more than a few days (if that) before we knew about the G'nators and then we got the card. They kinda just came out of the blue at GenCon, as far as I remember.

[happyjosiah]

She didn;t work in groups.

And she sure as hell didn;t work with monkeys.

:lol: That was hillarious!!!

[Hahma]

1) Again, instead of a neat, thematic name, we get "Nakita" - likely an anagram of someone they know. Heck, Kitana Agents would be much cooler, if only they had Katanas....

Hmmmm ummm Le Femme Nikita? That not themed enough for you? :PWell, Le Femme Nikita was a solo show - ONE agent, super-spy thing.
She didn;t work in groups.

And she sure as hell didn;t work with monkeys. :lol:

While it's POSSIBLE it was named as an homage to the little-known foreign film-with-a-remake La Femme Nikita (which I agree might be cool), I kinda doubt it, and the link is so tenuous, unsupported in the abilities and out of place in HS that they shouldn't have bothered.


The gorillanators are agents like the Nakitas, even though they of a different race/species. Think of Chewbaka and Han Solo. Han was the leader and Chewy was the muscle. Different factions of military, Regular Army may be inspired by Special Forces.

[Hahma]

Great post Augray. Very helpful. However, it fails in the conclusion, namely that none of the archers can attack the smoke protected unit. Re-word your story with Joe saying, "My third archer is going to attack your orc next to the NA."

Now suppose that the two previous archers attacked a NA or an appropriately adjacent figure to the NA, and the NA in those previous two instances failed the smoke screen roll? And suppose in the previous two attacks the archers killed or wounded a NA or adjacent fig? The archers ALL share a turn, according to your interpretation. So in theory they should ALL have their previous attacks negated.

But of course they wouldn't. Which means that the smoke screen only affects the SINGLE archer. Which is why the card says very plainly "figure's turn" (singular).

Actually I believe the roll counts for all remaining archers on the card. I think the term figure is used for consistancy. I don't think any card or rulebook talks of an Army Card having a turn. I find the wording on the card pretty clear.


I take it to mean each figure separately regarding the attacking card. With the exception of the Roman archer volley, each figure attempts an attack separatelyl. So if one Aubrien sights in a Nakita or figure adjacent to it, and the 20d is 13 or higher, that Aubrien can't attack those targets. But I think the other two may make an attempt with the defender making the 20d roll again each time. If a Micro Corps agent survives an attack from an Aubrien by rolling a 15 or higher on the 20d, that doesn't mean that the other Aubriens can't attack him. I don't see they can penalize an entire squad during on of it's members' attack attempt. What if the squad was spread ten spaces away each, is that smoke cloud THAT big as to obscure sighting from that many different angles and perhaps even elevations?

I see it as being multiple clouds, not one big one. But, the Microcorp's attack is totally different. It doesn't prevent targeting, it prevents wounds....

Yeah, but what if you had Syrarris/4thMass/Grut Archer or what have you, adjacent to the Aubrien who's vision is obscurred by the smoke? How does Syvarris get to attempt to attack if the other two Aubriens can't attack?

In any of those old movies where smoke bombs were used, it was only a quick flash and not a lingering cloud. I mean, how much smoke can one of those things create anyway? Technically, you can have the Nakita surrounded by three archers in a large triangle, so I can't understand how none of them get to attack, while some other friendly (on a different card) can attack (depending on the 20d) without being obscurred by the same smoke that is blinding his buddies from three different locations and angles.

Because Syvarris/etc's turn will come AFTER the smoke has cleared. The smoke covers the agents/adjacent units, not the ranged attackers. And have you seen the kinda smoke they use for Smoke Grenades in commando type movies? That's the kinda effect I'm seeing here.

But, regardless, you are thinking way too much outside the mechanics of it with visual/SFX interpetation to try to justify your interpetation of the mechanics. That just doesn't work, IMHO.

We disagree I suppose. I just don't see how the huge cloud of smoke like those smoke grenades (which I have seen in the Marines) would magically blow away for the next turn. Besides the object of smoke is for cover while moving, not to stand there and be shot at again.

If you have a squad of 4th Mass w/height and not moving facing off against a squad of Nakita's, you might as well pack it in because you have a good chance of never getting a shot off at the ladies in white, while they can pick you off from distance because they can either see through the smoke or it magically disappears for the next turn.

I suppose I might prefer the ability if (like the Ninjas' disappear) they had to move after a successful role. It would make more sense and even allow them to move out of range of the attacking ranged units.

[Jason]

The way the card is worded a succesful roll blocks all Nikita + ALL figures adjacent to them. 1 roll could block up to like 20 figures or so

[thehandofzarquon]

We disagree I suppose. I just don't see how the huge cloud of smoke like those smoke grenades (which I have seen in the Marines) would magically blow away for the next turn. Besides the object of smoke is for cover while moving, not to stand there and be shot at again.
Again... trying to use visual/sfx to justify rules. It's not going to change the rules one way or another. Even if it does just affect one squad member at a time, that smoke isn't going to disappear any faster. In fact, it's likely to build up from all the extra uses of it.


If you have a squad of 4th Mass w/height and not moving facing off against a squad of Nakita's, you might as well pack it in because you have a good chance of never getting a shot off at the ladies in white, while they can pick you off from distance because they can either see through the smoke or it magically disappears for the next turn.
Isn't that the point to the draft? To let you get units to take advantage of weaknesses? And you always see those laser sights coming out through the cloud...


I suppose I might prefer the ability if (like the Ninjas' disappear) they had to move after a successful role. It would make more sense and even allow them to move out of range of the attacking ranged units.

Maybe, but I'd rather not see the same ability twice, plus this ability covers others too.

[Hahma]

The way the card is worded a succesful roll blocks all Nikita + ALL figures adjacent to them. 1 roll could block up to like 20 figures or so

That's pretty huge smoke. But something that huge shouldn't just disappear for the next attack. If it blocks out the entire attacking squad's card (assuming it's a squad), then does it simply go away for the Nakitas to attack the poor bastards that tried to attack them before? What if Jotan is next to them, now the smoke cloud is not only broad, but it's pretty darnn tall too. Seems kind of goofy, something that big, just doesn't go poof and disappear.

[Eclipse]

Yes, but it can only remain for one turn. In the next turn you could move the Nikitas entirely, and there's no rules in the game currently that would allow the smoke to continue to protect those units.

[Jason]

As worded the Nikita are absolute BOMBS. This wave makes figures like Sullivan, Murphy, etc much more playable since almost all the new defense powers only work vs special attacks

[thehandofzarquon]

The way the card is worded a succesful roll blocks all Nikita + ALL figures adjacent to them. 1 roll could block up to like 20 figures or so

That's pretty huge smoke. But something that huge shouldn't just disappear for the next attack. If it blocks out the entire attacking squad's card (assuming it's a squad), then does it simply go away for the Nakitas to attack the poor bastards that tried to attack them before? What if Jotan is next to them, now the smoke cloud is not only broad, but it's pretty darnn tall too. Seems kind of goofy, something that big, just doesn't go poof and disappear.
You can have Robots fighting Orcs and Dragons and Giants and Cybernetic Gorrillas all summoned to a planet via Winged Humanoids who had Visions of them brought on by drinking the water of a magical pool of water but a smoke cloud disappearing instantly causes you image/reality/physics problems? WTF? Sorry, gotta call some BS on that.

[Hahma]

Again... trying to use visual/sfx to justify rules. It's not going to change the rules one way or another. Even if it does just affect one squad member at a time, that smoke isn't going to disappear any faster.

Yeah, but does the rule say that the attacking unit/card cannot attack any more that turn, or the attacking figure? If it says attacking figure, then I'm not trying to change the rules, I'm supporting what I understand them to imply. If is says that the unit/army card cannot attack after a successful smokescreen then my arguement is for naught and I am wrong.

Regardless, it can cause problems unless the question is brought up to Hasbro for a firm answer one way or the other. I don't care which way it goes, as long as the answer is clear and without room for different interpretation.

I'm heading to bed. Have a good evening/morning :D

[Jason]

"all Nakita Agents you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn."

Basically that means everyone Agent and Every figure adjacent to them are immune that turn after 1 successful roll. The attacking unit would have to switch target and attack a unit not adjacent to a Nikita if any exist

[Jason]

"all Nakita Agents you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting figure's turn."

Basically that means every Agent and Every figure adjacent to them are immune that turn after 1 successful roll. The attacking unit would have to switch target and attack a unit not adjacent to a Nikita if any exist

[thehandofzarquon]

Again... trying to use visual/sfx to justify rules. It's not going to change the rules one way or another. Even if it does just affect one squad member at a time, that smoke isn't going to disappear any faster.

Yeah, but does the rule say that the attacking unit/card cannot attack any more that turn, or the attacking figure? If it says attacking figure, then I'm not trying to change the rules, I'm supporting what I understand them to imply. If is says that the unit/army card cannot attack after a successful smokescreen then my arguement is for naught and I am wrong.

Regardless, it can cause problems unless the question is brought up to Hasbro for a firm answer one way or the other. I don't care which way it goes, as long as the answer is clear and without room for different interpretation.

I'm heading to bed. Have a good evening/morning :D

It says the smoke-screened figures have no valid-hit zones for the rest of the attacking figure's turn. They can't be attacked except by adjacent foes in that case (which don't need LOS) or the Grenade Special attack (which doesn't need LOS for any figure, not just the blast radius ones, moot point since I don't think the Airborne can pull off normal attacks an grenades in the same round).

The real argument about the rules is whether squad figures each have their own turns or if all their actions are contained within a single Squad Turn. By the rules, imho, it's a single Squad Turn (with backup by the wording of another ability: Bonding, and the main rulebook), thus the other squad members get affected by the smoke.

[Agent Minivann]

I like how with the Maul special ability (not Special Attack :wink: ) you will have to rethink whether to use any glyph/height/aura bonuses to attack. Maul only kicks in if all dice rolled are skulls. The ability is dependant on the outcome of the dice roll.

Height disadvantage? I hadn't thought of that angle. Good catch.

I'm only to page 9 so far, but I really like these units. Some of the specials really change (radically change?) strategy. I can't wait to get my hands on these.

[Hahma]

The way the card is worded a succesful roll blocks all Nikita + ALL figures adjacent to them. 1 roll could block up to like 20 figures or so

That's pretty huge smoke. But something that huge shouldn't just disappear for the next attack. If it blocks out the entire attacking squad's card (assuming it's a squad), then does it simply go away for the Nakitas to attack the poor bastards that tried to attack them before? What if Jotan is next to them, now the smoke cloud is not only broad, but it's pretty darnn tall too. Seems kind of goofy, something that big, just doesn't go poof and disappear.
You can have Robots fighting Orcs and Dragons and Giants and Cybernetic Gorrillas all summoned to a planet via Winged Humanoids who had Visions of them brought on by drinking the water of a magical pool of water but a smoke cloud disappearing instantly causes you image/reality/physics problems? WTF? Sorry, gotta call some BS on that.

Okay, almost off to bed. I suppose it could be some kind of magic smoke that simply vanishes. But as you had described it as a smoke grenade, I was using that as reference, and those just don't disappear. But perhaps it's a large billowy cloud of smoke that can vanish at the right moment. In the world of HS, anything is possible.

[Thor]

The only reason I threw out any insults (and come on, was it really that hurtful guys? If so I apologize) is because people were not acknowledging a fact. Fact is the card says a single figure's turn. Now either the card is defining when you attack with a single figure as a turn, within a the squads collective turn, OR the card has improper grammar usage. Someone brought up that a 12 year old would probably follow the definition of a rule as stated in the rule book? I disagree. The card makes it sound like a single figure and the use of punctuation MAKES it a single figure, no question about it. Based on the English language this card would be a single figue. It does say in the rulebook a turn is an entire squads movement/attack, but is it not possible that a single figure can take a turn without a squads turn? The rulebook never says otherwise. The problem is I just can't see them skipping such an obvious and important grammatical error unless it was meant that way.

In terms of gameplay and point cost the NA also seem like smoke screen would only affect one figure's "turn". They have squad bonding, a watered down counter strike and an ability that can make up to 8 figures around EACH agent immune to range attack an ENTIRE turn? Not only that, every other defensive ability I can think of off the top of my head for squad figures only affects the targeted member, not the entire squad if the ability goes off for the one figure.

Anyhoo, I am done with this arguement till we get an official ruling. I will agree with many others on one point though, this ability could have been worded much better to clear up all this confusion. So, does the card use improper punctuation or is a turn further/redifined? Hmm....

[Jason]

What's the possible confusion:

If you attack with Krav and I have Nikita who are all adjacent to AE then if I roll successfully for the Smoke Screen those figures cannot be attacked the rest of that turn by your Krav

[Hahma]

The only reason I threw out any insults (and come on, was it really that hurtful guys? If so I apologize) is because people were not acknowledging a fact. Fact is the card says a single figure's turn. Now either the card is defining when you attack with a single figure as a turn, within a the squads collective turn, OR the card has improper grammar usage. Someone brought up that a 12 year old would probably follow the definition of a rule as stated in the rule book? I disagree. The card makes it sound like a single figure and the use of punctuation MAKES it a single figure, no question about it. Based on the English language this card would be a single figue. It does say in the rulebook a turn is an entire squads movement/attack, but is it not possible that a single figure can take a turn without a squads turn? The rulebook never says otherwise. The problem is I just can't see them skipping such an obvious and important grammatical error unless it was meant that way.

Anyhoo, I am done with this arguement till we get an official ruling. I will agree with many others on one point though, this ability could have been worded much better to clear up all this confusion. So, does the card has improper punctuation or is a turn further/redifined? Hmm....

I guess that was my point also. As the rulebook says "ATTACKING - The figures on your chosen Army Card attack one at a time, in any order. Each figure can attack only once, but different figures can attack the same opposing figure. "

[/b]

[thehandofzarquon]

It does say in the rulebook a turn is an entire squads movement/attack, but is it not possible that a single figure can take a turn without a squads turn? The rulebook never says otherwise.
Sorry, gotta point this out... that's horrible, HORRIBLE thinking that brought apon the utterly stupid Taelord "Flying Disengage" ruling. Seriously, the book doesn't also say that I get to reroll all dice I roll until I get a roll I like, who knows if that's what the designers intended when you roll dice in the game :roll:

Heck, I declare that all Blade Grut attacks automatically kill the unit they are attacking without any dice rolling! The card doesn't say otherwise! :x

Sorry about that, just ranting off of the Taelord ruling...

[Agent Minivann]

Blastatrons
1-5-7-1-2
Galadiatron Movement Bonding:
Homing Device: When attacking a non-adj fig, add 1 attack die for
every Soulbourg who follows Vydar that is adjacent to the defending fig.

Mathguy, does it say 'every Soulborg' or every 'every Gladiatron'? I hope the way you have it is a mistake? It should be Gladiatrons in my opinion. BoB didn't have a pic of the Blastatrons card (or I missed it), so that's why I'm asking.

It couldn't say "every Gladiatron who follows Vydar," since they all do. If he is mistyped, then he also added "who follows Vydar" by accident, which is unlikely. Also, Major X17 is themed to go with them, and it would make no sense for him to not be included.
Major Q9 could help out, and though he (it?) isn't in the cyberclaw theme, it works well enough for the game. And let's not forget that other Blastatrons are prefectly capable of homing for their fellow squaddies!

The blastatron/gladiatron team up makes a ton of sense with the move bonding. The Q9 one makes sense with Q9 as a leader, and the blastatron wiping out pesky melee attackers adjacent to Q9 when the order marker isn't on Q9.

I love this game!

[Hahma]

What's the possible confusion:

If you attack with Krav and I have Nikita who are all adjacent to AE then if I roll successfully for the Smoke Screen those figures cannot be attacked the rest of that turn by your Krav

The confusion is if one Krav can't attack for that turn or if none of the three (assuming there are three left) Kravs can attack for that turn just because the first Krave caused the smoke to appear when he/she targeted the Nakita.

[Thor]

It does say in the rulebook a turn is an entire squads movement/attack, but is it not possible that a single figure can take a turn without a squads turn? The rulebook never says otherwise.
Sorry, gotta point this out... that's horrible, HORRIBLE thinking that brought apon the utterly stupid Taelord "Flying Disengage" ruling. Seriously, the book doesn't also say that I get to reroll all dice I roll until I get a roll I like, who knows if that's what the designers intended when you roll dice in the game :roll:

Heck, I declare that all Blade Grut attacks automatically kill the unit they are attacking without any dice rolling! The card doesn't say otherwise! :x

Sorry about that, just ranting off of the Taelord ruling...
Well that may be so, but at least that ruling has the English language backing it up :twisted:

[thehandofzarquon]

It does say in the rulebook a turn is an entire squads movement/attack, but is it not possible that a single figure can take a turn without a squads turn? The rulebook never says otherwise.
Sorry, gotta point this out... that's horrible, HORRIBLE thinking that brought apon the utterly stupid Taelord "Flying Disengage" ruling. Seriously, the book doesn't also say that I get to reroll all dice I roll until I get a roll I like, who knows if that's what the designers intended when you roll dice in the game :roll:

Heck, I declare that all Blade Grut attacks automatically kill the unit they are attacking without any dice rolling! The card doesn't say otherwise! :x

Sorry about that, just ranting off of the Taelord ruling...
Well that may be so, but at least that ruling has the English language backing it up :twisted:
I'd personally rather have common sense/actual rule text backing me up than the English language, which nobody ever seems to be able to get completely right :P Expecially 100% of the time :wink:

Anyway... off to bed, tired, been up far too long. It's been fun, today, that's for sure. :D

[GaryLASQ]

hey. i don't think anyone has mentioned this yet...

Blastatrons are Soulborg Guards. does that ring a bell? Zettians are also Soulborg Guards. guess who gives a +2 to the Blastatrons' range...DW9K.

[thehandofzarquon]

hey. i don't think anyone has mentioned this yet...

Blastatrons are Soulborg Guards. does that ring a bell? Zettians are also Soulborg Guards. guess who gives a +2 to the Blastatrons' range...DW9K.
I dunno about this thread, but there is a thread about it in the Offical Units section...

[GaryLASQ]

ah. well i did a search for "soulborg" and "guard" and it came up blank.

darn, thought i sniffed this out before anyone else...since nobody plays the poor Zettians i figured this SP of DW9K had been forgotten. ;)

welp, time for sleep. (the coffee i had during the drive home from GC is finally wearing off...)

[Agent Minivann]

All figures in a squad move and attack in 1 turn, so...

Why even specify with the word figure, why not just say the smoke powder is in effect for the duration of the turn?

2 reasons come to mind.

Because figure works for hero and squad alike. Minor, but relevent.

Because the descriptor specifies which figure, and therefore, which turn the no visable target zones is in effect. Sets limit on the duration of the effect.

[Xotli]

This is my kid's house.

This is also my other kid's house.

Nope ... nothing grammatically incorrect there.


RTFM ... the FM says that a turn consists of all figures on a card moving then attacking.

Nothing weird there.


Could they have written it differently if they'd meant what some here seem to think?

Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, all Nakita Agents you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, no longer have any hit zones visible to the targeting figure for the duration of its turn.
Check.


Diagram the sentence ... okay.

If you roll a 13 or higher, {conditional clause} all Nakita Agents you control, {first part of compound subject} and all figures you control {second part of compound subject} that are adjacent to those Nakita Agents, {adjectival clause modifying second part of compound subject} no longer have {verb} any visible hit zones {direct object} for the duration {adverbial prepositional phrase modifying verb} of the targeting figure's turn. {adjectival prepositonal phrase modifying "duration"}
Well, I'm not sure that was helpful, but I suppose it was vaguely fun. Haven't done that since my days as an English major ...


Don't make assumptions and read what you want into the card ... I agree with that one. For instance, the assumption that because a single thing (e.g. a figure) owns a thing (e.g. a turn), therefore no other things (e.g. remaining figures in the squad) can own it either would be a pretty major assumption.


The wording on the card is amazingly clear? Say, I think we're all in complete agreement on this guys! Why are we still arguing? :D


Sarcasm and poking fun at spurious arguments aside, I just have to say that I instantaneously read it the way Rhydderch and hand' and so many others here have and the alternative reading (proposed by Riggler/Thor/Pilgrim and so many others) never occurred to me. And I wasn't kidding about being an English major.

FWIW.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

awesome - pictures of the cards in a uniform, complete collection!

[toddrew]

Kokuze Samurai are now my sams of choice. Seem to be perfect balance between offensive capabilities of Tagawa and cost of Izumi - lower movement by 1 being the only penalty, but made up for with that charge!

EDIT: Still may be my sams of choice - but somehow I had granted them 5 D to go along with their 5 A :oops: time for bed :lol:

[Jason]

The Kozuke and Deathstalker seem pretty similar to me. Both are quite fast melee units with nice attack. The kozuke obviously have the better attack bu tthe deathstalkers have better defense and a potentially amazing special