gorillanators/snipers... overpriced or underrated

[gorillanator]

I've seen this topic on other forums so why not start it here?

On the topic, though, I think the snipers are amazing, especially with Taelord or a glyph and a height advantage, but some people say they aren't worth the 100 points they cost which is wrong, because I would take 1 attack die with deadly shot over 2-3 attack dice anyday.

As for the Gorillanators, I think they are maybe a little bit overpriced at 90, but one automatic defense die is good considering you have a 1/3 chance of rolling a defense die if you have one defense.[/quote]

[netherspirit]

G'nators are underrated I think.

They are fast and have decent range. Playing them properly and with the right support units you can rule the field.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

G'nators are underrated I think.

They are fast and have decent range. Playing them properly and with the right support units you can rule the field.

Yes! I used them last game night. I had 90 points left to draft and I was going to with my tried and true Marrden, but I figured I'd tried a reliable big move squad with range.

They smoked the field! Their movement through snow was decent and they withstood attacks from Dzu-Teh and Krug. Two of my Primadons happened to get engaged with the Troll. They chose not to attack big ugly as their chance of survival was risky once he started getting more attack dice ( I still wonder if the end result of that non-attacking decision was good).

I'm definitely drafting these guys again some time. I may even try two squads worth.

I've doubted Rob and Craig's stat decisions with the Gorillinators from the moment we all saw their stats and the discussions began (on HS.net?) .

But there's something there with this common squad.

Anyone please share your successes with the Gorillinators.

It's obvious they're reliable against Arrow Gruts and other low attack ranged units. Any other ideas?

[K/H_Addict]

depends. are we talking about them plain, or with enhancements? w/o enhancements the snipers suck major tail, and th g'nators i think are just fine as they are. i have only used them once, and that was because i liked their speed/range. i don't know their stats off hand though...


with enhancements, they are both well worth their listed point value, but you lose other points/units to enhance them. it's all in your preferences.

[gorillanator]

The snipers don't suck that much even without enhancements.

If I did my math correctly, you have a better chance rolling 2 skulls with 1 deadly shot die than you do with 3 regular attack dice which is equal to or higher than what most squads have.[/quote]

[netherspirit]

You can forgive DVF...errrr K/H he hasn't actually played with the snipers, in fact I do believe he doesn't even own them or plan to own them. IIRC, I read that in another thread...perhaps the Taelord thread?

Gotta play them before making statments like that DVF...errrr K/H :P

[Rÿchean]

depends. are we talking about them plain, or with enhancements? w/o enhancements the snipers suck major tail, and th g'nators i think are just fine as they are. i have only used them once, and that was because i liked their speed/range. i don't know their stats off hand though...

LOL! in another thread you said you don't even have the Snipers...that is a pretty damn absolute statement for not even having them. I guess you could have proxied them, but if you did, you would know they do not suck major tail.

I think the snipers and gorillanators are both fine the way they are.

[LilNewbie]

I've used the G'nators in a game with several people. It was using a map that you would jump around on several islands using teleporters. The G'nators rocked. They eventually got caught by a shotgun blast from Sullivan but it was my fault for not figuring he could get within range and not killing him earlier in the game. :D

I've never used the snipers but after seeing and reading about them they are on the top of my "to try" list.

LilNewbie's Assessment:

G'Nators: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star:
Snipers: :shrug: (but will update when they get tried)

Newb.

[Bobbo]

I think the snipers and gorillanators are both fine the way they are.

I really want to like both the Gorillinators and the snipers. I really really do. But I don't.

My main problem with the G'nators is that they are 30 points a figure. I don't find that they ever even come close to killing their worth in points, and I don't think they are tough enough to take and hold glyphs. I can't justify taking them when for an extra 3 points a figure you can have the microcorp agents, who easily outclass them even without water on the high ground.

The snipers fare a little bit better, but they aren't game winners in and of themselves and need to be supported. I've found that they get used a lot like the 4th Mass (late game camping on the high ground), but each one goes for twice the points of a minuteman.

Also, it could be colored by the fact that the first time I used Taelord and the snipers, they were massacred by Syvarris even though I had the high ground. It was 280 points lost in a single round. I can't deal with that kind of stuff :(

I don't think that either the Gorillas or the snipers are bad. I just feel like they are in a nitch that is better filled by other figures. I'd take the 4th Mass or the Airborne Elite over the snipers, and I'd take vipers, Me-Burq-Sa or Syvarris over the Gorillas almost any day of the week.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I've never used the snipers but after seeing and reading about them they are on the top of my "to try" list.



You've never used the Snipers?!? Get on that right away. I fear the Snipers and It's always a scary game when they are on the field.


If any unit came close to unbalancing the game, I think The Omnicrons might take the cake.



I'm so surprised there's even a notion the Omnicrons might suck! :shock:

[LilNewbie]

It's not about their suckage so much as it being their point value. 100 points is tough to throw at them when there are so many other choices. But no worries, I've got an angle. :D

Newb.

[ServantOfUtgar]

I prefer mobility and range over numbers but, I had my doubts about both snipes and G'nators until I gave them a couple of plays. In the right situation they are a lot of fun.

[Rÿchean]

I don't think that either the Gorillas or the snipers are bad. I just feel like they are in a nitch that is better filled by other figures. I'd take the 4th Mass or the Airborne Elite over the snipers, and I'd take vipers, Me-Burq-Sa or Syvarris over the Gorillas almost any day of the week.

Uhm...I would too !!!

Almost seems like an argument for those units (AE, 4thMass, MBS) being under priced.. ;-)

I believe everything has a reason...at 90 points you might be able to fit the gorillas into an army where you couldn't fit the Microcorp...In limited figure availability / drafting game…gorillas might be your only choice at 90 pts.

I am not trying to say they are the best stuff or even a good value....but i think they do function well enough...

and besides, who the hell knows what Hasbro has in the works....what sucks today...might be great after another expansion or two..

[TheRealQ]

I have yet to use the Gorillinators, but I have had them used against me and regularly I kill them. The last time though they were giving me a headache as they kept popping my arrow gruts without me touching them. Against squads that have a base attack of 2 or less they appear to be useful. Their movement should allow them to get to height but I have yet to see this done successfully. Like Rychaen I figure they might be an option when you only have 90 points left in a draft...although a swog and shotgun sullivan or one of a dozen pairs that add up to 90 don't look too bad. Okay, once someone kicks my butt with them I will consider using them.

Now Omnicron Snipers...
Lets compare apples to apples.

OS=100, MicroCorp=100.

Both 5 move, 7 range, and three single point figures.

OS att 1 but with deadly shot, MC att 2. Now I know people say they prefer the att 1 w/ds but mathematically these average out the same.

Okay what about at height...OS att 2/ds, MC att 4...hmm still balanced. In fact unless you held a glyph or Tae they are similar attackers.

Now defense. :) No comparison. OS def 1, MC def 3...unless in water then 5...oh, and if that doesn't work they have a 30% chance of ignoring all wounds. Hmmm...I don't think this is even...I might be wrong...but I just don't think so.

Admittedly I loved the OS, that is until the MC appeared. Until Omnicron Commander (a fictitious character representing any enhancing hero for OS) appears and enhances them they'll be going on my shelf.

[Rÿchean]

OS defense is 3!!!! not 1...look at card, not hasbro misprint on website

I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. - you are wrong here so there is one time :-D ;-)

[Rÿchean]

Just for reference, I just sent this to Hasbro:

Omnicron Snipers from Mallidon's Prophecy are listed as Defense 1 on your website but as 3 defense on the actual cards.

http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/default.cfm?page=character-new&char_id=6

Which is correct, the defense of 1 on the website or the defense of 3 on the actual cards???

Please clear this matter up and update website accordingly

Thank you in advance for the response to this concern.


Hopefully they will fix their website...or make the unlikey ruling that the cards are wrong and the website is correct :shock:

:-D

EDIT - for overkill

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic124692_sized.jpg

[LilNewbie]

Thanks for sending the letter. I'm hoping the website is wrong (it probably is.)

Newb.

[hex706f726368]

OS att 1 but with deadly shot, MC att 2. Now I know people say they prefer the att 1 w/ds but mathematically these average out the same.

Okay what about at height...OS att 2/ds, MC att 4...hmm still balanced. In fact unless you held a glyph or Tae they are similar attackers.


I had to look this up because it sounded so off to me. I grabbed the charts off hq that had the odds of doing at least one damage.


Defense Dice 1 Deadly Strike(%) 2 Normal(%)
1 50 58.33
2 44.44 44.44
3 37.04 33.33
4 29.63 24.69
5 23.05 18.11
6 17.56 13.17
7 13.17 9.51
8 9.75 6.83
9 7.15 4.88
10 5.2 3.47


Defense Dice 2 Deadly Strike(%) 4 Normal(%)
1 75 85.42
2 69.44 75.69
3 62.04 65.51
4 54.32 55.56
5 46.91 46.3
6 40.05 38
7 33.84 30.77
8 28.29 24.63
9 23.41 19.51
10 19.18 15.31


This doesn't factor in sentinals(x2) or gorillas(always >=1) defenses. Interesting results, but you're right, they are essentially the same.

[Jason]

-The Snipers are 1 of the Best ranged Units in the game. 2 Deadly strike dice are better than 4 non deadly strike. The reason for this is that you have a much higher probability of getting high skull counts. Yes you get 0 more often but for all practical purposes often times the defender will roll atleast 1 shield meaning generally you need to be doing atleast 2 or more damage to get a kill Additionally they have 3 defnse and a good range of 7

-In most cases the Gorillinators suck. Yes they have 7 movement but with a range of 6 they often have to stay within range of their opponents in order to attack them. Also, MANY people overlook the fact that Tough only works against Normal attacks. If you use AE grenades, Sullivan, Nilfheim, Murphy, DW8k, DW9k, Q9, etc they will be rolling a whopping 1 defense or an amazing 2 defense if they do manage height advantage. Any of these units absolutely rock them. That is not even mentioning their unimpressive base attack of 2

[TheRealQ]

Sorry for the confusion. I had looked for the cards before making a post but my son has them lost somewhere in his mess of a room. The only reference I had was online and it appears that Hasbro has faulty information. GBGO. Even with this correction my argument still stands as the MC still have a bonus in water and a chance to ignore wounds.

Furthermore, look again at my signature...it has a triple meaning and still stands true. ;)

[gorillanator]

I need some clarification...

Is 1 DS die > 2 normal dice?

Is 2 DS dice > 4 normal dice?

and so on and so forth

[MacG]

I need some clarification...

Is 1 DS die > 2 normal dice?

Is 2 DS dice > 4 normal dice?

and so on and so forth

1 deadly strike die
50% of 0 hits
50% of 2 hits

2 normal dice
25% of 0 hits
50% of 1 hit
25% of 2 hits

So if you want to do ONE point of damage, then 2 normal dice are better. If you want to do TWO points of damage, then 1 deadly die is better.

Basically, it depends on the toughness of the target. This tendency to extremes increases as the number of dice increases:

2 deadly strike dice
25% of 0 hits
50% of 2 hits
25% of 4 hits

4 normal dice
06% of 0 hits
25% of 1 hit
38% of 2 hits
25% of 3 hits
06% of 4 hits

Factoring in height makes deadly dice more tempting.

1 deadly strike die and 1 die of height
25% of 0 hits
50% of 2 hits
25% of 4 hits

2 normal dice and 1 die of height
12% of 0 hits
38% of 1 hit
38% of 2 hits
12% of 3 hits

You still have a higher chance to flub, but you've got a 75% chance of doing two or more hits over a 50% chance with the normal dice. If you feel lucky and/or think you can get height, take the deadly dice.

[Rÿchean]

Concerning Sniper card versus Website, response form Hasbro:

Response (Chris) 05/15/2006 08:14 AM
Hi Mark,

Thank you for contacting Hasbro with your question on Heroscape! Perhaps I can help.

The card is correct. The Omnicron Snipers have a defense of 3. I appreciate you brining this error to our attention. I have alerted the web team, and it should be fixed shortly.

I hope that answers your question(s). If there is anything else I can help you with, please visit www.hasbro.com or respond to this e-mail.

Customer (Mark Pruett) 05/12/2006 05:12 PM
Omnicron Snipers from Mallidon's Prophecy are listed as Defense 1 on your website but as 3 defense on the actual cards.

http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/default.cfm?page=character-new&char_id=6

Which is correct, the defense of 1 on the website or the defense of 3 on the actual cards???

Please clear this matter up and update website accordingly

Thank you in advance for the response to this concern.

[LilNewbie]

Cool. Thanks for taking the point on the defense issue out, Rychean.

Newb.

[EyeOfSauron]

For what it's worth:

For some reason the G'nators were one of the boosters I never got...until just the other day I finally picked them up and you can imagine our (my 3 boys and I) disappointment on seeing the G'nators stats.

Well, I was convinced they were either never gonna get used, or I was going to have to use HCC to create a new stats card when my 7 year old realized that all we had to do was use the stats from the Basic Game on the back....all stats are the same expect they have 4 defense!

Now they ROCK!!

[Jason]

If you go by averages 1 Auto shield is worth 3 defense dice

[DoesntCompute]

I did the calculations to determine what the odds are of getting at least 'X' number of skulls/shields. The formatting will get all screwed up but the first column is the number of dice rolled. The numbers along the top are the number of successes you care about. The numbers in the chart are your odds of getting that many successes or more.

One of the things that jumped out at me is how much tougher it is to defend to skulls than one. I knew it instinctively but to see the math surprised me a bit.

Defense Successes
Dice 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 0.33
2 0.56 0.11
3 0.70 0.26 0.04
4 0.80 0.41 0.11 0.01
5 0.87 0.54 0.21 0.05 0.00
6 0.91 0.65 0.32 0.10 0.02 0.00
7 0.94 0.74 0.43 0.17 0.05 0.01 0.00
8 0.96 0.80 0.53 0.26 0.09 0.02 0.00 0.00
9 0.97 0.86 0.62 0.35 0.14 0.04 0.01 0.00 0.00

Attack Successes
Dice 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 0.50
2 0.75 0.25
3 0.88 0.50 0.13
4 0.94 0.69 0.31 0.06
5 0.97 0.81 0.50 0.19 0.03
6 0.98 0.89 0.66 0.34 0.11 0.02
7 0.99 0.94 0.77 0.50 0.23 0.06 0.01
8 1.00 0.96 0.86 0.64 0.36 0.14 0.04 0.00
9 1.00 0.98 0.91 0.75 0.50 0.25 0.09 0.02 0.00

The formula for figuring your percent chance of getting exactly 'X' successes in 'Y' rolls is:
(% chance of success) to the power of (number of successes) times
(% chance of failure) to the power of (number of failures) times
number of combinations you can get that number of successes on the dice rolled.

[DoesntCompute]

If you go by averages 1 Auto shield is worth 3 defense dice

3 defense dice will get at least one shield 70% of the time. They will get at least 2 shields 26% of the time.

The G'nators with 1 auto-shield plus one defense will get 1 shield 100% of the time and at least 2 shields 33% of the time.

The G'nators defense is better than a unit with 3 defense (barely) as long as the attack is a regular attack.

[TheRealQ]

Yes, Tough+1Def is better than a 3Def but Jason was pointing out that the Tough was equivalent to 3Def, not the above. Refigure comparing Tough+1Def and a 4Def; this is what he was saying.

[feekonea]

I think the gorilinators are a new "addition" to the game of heroscape. That is why no one knows how to use them to their full potential yet. They are more of a hit-n-run team and that is why they are overlooked. Nobody knows how to use them. They are not supposed to be used for sayaing in one place and guarding a glyph. They are like muggers bascially. Your supposed to aim for heros that have 1 range max. (including the specials). ex. attack the valguard one turn, the maybe move to ne gok sa. then maybe move to charos, then back again. That How I think they should be used.

[DoesntCompute]

Yes, Tough+1Def is better than a 3Def but Jason was pointing out that the Tough was equivalent to 3Def, not the above. Refigure comparing Tough+1Def and a 4Def; this is what he was saying.

For the record, Tough is not really the equivilant of 3 defense dice. Tough defends 1 skull 100% (vs. 70%) and defends against 2 skulls 0% (vs. 26%).

I did the compare using Tough+1Def because that is what the G'nators have. They have a defense that is slightly better than 3 regular defense dice as long as they are attacked with a regular attack.

4 defense dice will get at least one shield 80% of the time. They will get at least 2 shields 41% of the time. They will get at least 3 shields 11% of the time.

As I said before, the G'nators with 1 auto-shield plus one defense will get 1 shield 100% of the time and at least 2 shields 33% of the time. So the G'nators are better against 1 skull and 11% less likely to defend against 2 skulls than 4 defense dice.

[Jason]

The main point we were reacting to was the person saying they suck with their advanced rules but are great with their Basic stats when in the reality the only difference is that Tough gets replaced with 3 defense dice. Obviously there are slight differences between +1 and 3 dice but not enough to say 1 way they suck and they other way they are great

[DoesntCompute]

The main point we were reacting to was the person saying they suck with their advanced rules but are great with their Basic stats when in the reality the only difference is that Tough gets replaced with 3 defense dice. Obviously there are slight differences between +1 and 3 dice but not enough to say 1 way they suck and they other way they are great

Agreed not enough difference to say the suck/are great but a ~30% swing is not minor either.

Basically, I wanted to use my spreadsheet to look at the numbers and this thread gave me an excuse.

[Jason]

I am in the camp that they still suck. Any ranged special rocks their world, and having only 6 range hurts them. If they had 7 range to go with their 7 movement they would be significantly better

[DoesntCompute]

I am in the camp that they still suck. Any ranged special rocks their world, and having only 6 range hurts them. If they had 7 range to go with their 7 movement they would be significantly better

I don't think they suck but I've discovered that they aren't for me. There are units in the game (Vipers) that I don't play well. They don't fit my style. I've had the G'nators used very effectively against me but I have never been able to effectively use them.

[ArchonShiva]

The perceived problem from both these units comes from the faact that they are not squads that are powerful just by virtue of being around, like the Krav Maga tend to be: you have to do something with them.

Both these units can be very ineffective when played wrong or used in the wrong environment. However, they can truly shine in the right circumstances.

The gorillas are neat against low-power swarms, ranged or not, and have proven some of the most effective glyph holders against melee squads, (which counter the Krav's ability), roughly on par with the Izumi, all told.

The Snipers, in an army that plays their strengths, can become the most devastating ranged draft of the all.

Both units, however, can also become very expensive cannon-fodder.

It's like drafting Taelord to boost Jotun' attack, really.

[RichardD]

I used two squads of monkeys at the weekend, and you can place me in the "don't suck" camp. Their speed was enough to make sure that they avoided anyon e dangerous (like the cowboys, for example), and their toughness meant that I could throw them at units with 2 attack dice without worrying too much. I lost one out of the six, with about 3 enemy kills (I can't remember *exactly* how many kills they scored - but they were good support for the real killing machine, the Takagawa samurai).

Two squads of snipers were drafted by one opponent - he lost badly. I don't think that the snipers are a poor choice, but he did mishandle them woefully, sending them against KM and Microcorp Agents, and surrendering the high ground. If he'd manouvred them against my Gorillas, being Tough would not have helped me.

What I like about HS is that every squad has its uses. The KM are used a lot - and used effectively - because they are good all-rounders, whereas with units like the Snipers you have to accept that they are a bit more specialised and make sure that you play to their strengths.

[gorillanator]

I just finished a game with my brother in which the first figures we sent out were my Gorillanators and his Krug and I found the Gorillanators to be amazing against a Krug with no wounds, so I surrounded Krug with my Gorillanators and easily defended against his 2 skull double attack until my Morsbane finally landed a negate marker on him.

[Jason]

Why didn't he just rush at Morsbane and ignore the gorillinators. It' doubtful you would attack him with them or take any passing swipes cuz then he would have an easier time killing Morsbane

[truth]

I love the G'nators. I often use them on boards that are a race for height as scouts. They run up and strike the first blows.

[gorillanator]

Why didn't he just rush at Morsbane and ignore the gorillinators. It' doubtful you would attack him with them or take any passing swipes cuz then he would have an easier time killing Morsbane

I failed to mention he was cyberclawed.

[Jason]

"I failed to mention he was cyberclawed."

That's interesting seeing as how Krug is IMMUNE to cyberclaw

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I used two squads of monkeys at the weekend, and you can place me in the "don't suck" camp. Their speed was enough to make sure that they avoided anyon e dangerous (like the cowboys, for example), and their toughness meant that I could throw them at units with 2 attack dice without worrying too much. I lost one out of the six, with about 3 enemy kills (I can't remember *exactly* how many kills they scored - but they were good support for the real killing machine, the Takagawa samurai).

I'd really like to try 2 or more squads of Gorillanators some time. I'm really coming around to their niche.



What I like about HS is that every squad has its uses.

And what I like about HS is having a ton of units to choose from and discovering them slowly over time and not all at once, you know? Gorillanators are a prime example of this. It also took me a long while to warm up to the orcs and the Romans.


I'm a Gorillanators fan for sure. Their play style is its own attractiveness. They're fast, deadly, and fragile, but not too fragile too make them undraftable. And yeah, a player should not pick them for every game played, but know when to counter with them.

[countblah]

If your opponent drafts Orc archers, toss in some Gorrillas. Or heck, anything but Vipers shoud do fine.

[Wingo_Nation]

Gorillanators do not suck. Just remember, like any common squad, they are far more effective when playing with more than one set. I play with DoesntCompute regularly, and I had quite a good time running circles around him with the gorillas a couple months ago. They don't suck, and I feel strongly that most of the people saying otherwise need to use them at least once.

[Jason]

Here are ranged units I would say more often than not are clearly better than the Gorillas:

*Krav
*AE
*Snipers
*Microcorp
*4th Mass
*Marro Warriors (I'm not a big fan of them but 4 figures for 50 points with 2/3 is not bad)


That leaves the Gorillinators competing with these units as 2nd Tier caliber Ranged Squads

*Zettians
*Arrow Gruts
*Roman Archers
*Aubrien

The Arrow Gruts are hard to include since it matters with them how many Swog Riders you also have. Obviously every unit has a moment where it can shine. I'd love to hear of any cases where early in a draft someone willingly chose the GNators over the Krav or AE

[Sydcomebak]

Defense Successes

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 - Shields rolled
# 1 .33 ( at least )
2 .56 .11
o 3 .70 .26 .04
f 4 .80 .41 .11 .01
5 .87 .54 .21 .05 .00
d 6 .91 .65 .32 .10 .02 .00
i 7 .94 .74 .43 .17 .05 .01 .00
c 8 .96 .80 .53 .26 .09 .02 .00 .00
e 9 .97 .86 .62 .35 .14 .04 .01 .00 .00


Attack Successes

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 - Skulls rolled
# 1 .50 ( at least )
2 .75 .25
o 3 .88 .50 .13
f 4 .94 .69 .31 .06
5 .97 .81 .50 .19 .03
d 6 .98 .89 .66 .34 .11 .02
i 7 .99 .94 .77 .50 .23 .06 .01
c 8 1.0 .96 .86 .64 .36 .14 .04 .00
e 9 1.0 .98 .91 .75 .50 .25 .09 .02 .00

[DoesntCompute]

...I play with DoesntCompute regularly, and I had quite a good time running circles around him with the gorillas a couple months ago.

Sure you had to bring that up didn't you...

Thanks for the reformat Syd.

[morgonis]

ive used the G'naters a couple times, they work great for circling around melee's to get height and some snipeing shots of, they also do pretty good chareging ranges with low attack dice, the auto-block on damage is astoundingly useful....but if i tried playing them like a set of microcorp, yeah they would die quickly....just dont forget "Gorilla" warfare, and you will find them to pretty nice :)

as for the Snipers, used them once liked them, playing this weekend and gonna try a Taelord Omnisniper combo, see how it goes

[AnubisGX]

Although I wish the Gorilla's tough ability work for special attacks, I would draft them just by looking at the figs. They look pretty cool, and seeing them run their 7 spaces makes it feel like a group of crazed Silverbacks going to smash your face in.=D
But alas, their 90 point cost, 1 defense, and the fact that tough doesn't work on special attacks, is what causes most players to look the other way.
Why were they cursed with low defense and a half a** ability!
If you give them 1 defense, AT LEAST let tough work for any attack.
Sadly, I have used them only once. I began to feel sorry for them, for they were the only figures never drafted. But once I used them, near the end of battle =p, seeing them run around gave me a good feeling. And thus, I no longer felt sorry for the brutes. They aren't the best squad there is, but they can be decent, if you have 2 or more sets of them.

As for the snipers, they're stats are pretty decent, and deadly shot is a plus. Just play them with more than one set, and boost their attack ASAP, and they can be pretty scary.

[Tiberius]

I am glad I read this, we have been using the gorillanators wrong. We used the tough ability against all attacks. They were one of my group's favorite units. The one guy always builds his army around them. I personally liked them too but I am more of a marro player myself. I have another friend who's favorite unit is the snipers. He decimated an orc army with them the last time we played. I have seen both units used very effectively, though personally I would go for the gorillinators if I had to pick one.

[Jason]

If your opponent takes a bunch of Gorillas just take either Murphy, Sullivan or DW8k. A Dw8k could wipe out a horde of Gorillas in 1 attack. Using 3 attack dice vs 1 defense die + being able to attack again for every would it would be a bloodbath. As a safer way if you are scared about your Dw8k going down to a lucky attack either Murphy or Sullivan can crush them. On the offchance you have Q9, Nilfheim, or Braxas they all devastate the GNators

As for the Snipers, they are GREAT. Most squad figures will go down against 2 skulls and the snipers have at worst a 50% chance at 2 skulls. They epecially shine against heroes. A Sniper who rolls 3 skulls inflicts an incredible SIX wounds (assuming they roll blanks). It's not uncommon to see either 1 Sniper or 2 Snipers take down a full ife hero in the same turn.

[Mystyc]

I am glad I read this, we have been using the gorillanators wrong. We used the tough ability against all attacks.
My group actually does the same. Where is the particular rule that states they don't, so that I can reference everyone?

[RobWeaver]

I'm glad I finally read this thread. I've got to try the Gorillinators! I always pass them up because of that 1 defense die. Adding another automatically usually isn't enough to ward off damage for me. I also have to confess that I haven't been in the Snipers camp for a while, but because I was trying to use them like the KM, who can blow downfield, essentially ignoring ranged fire.

[TheRealQ]

I am glad I read this, we have been using the gorillanators wrong. We used the tough ability against all attacks.
My group actually does the same. Where is the particular rule that states they don't, so that I can reference everyone?

It is on the card.

Tough
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack, Gorillinators always add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.

[Mystyc]

It is on the card.
Heh. The devil really is in the details. :oops:

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I played two games last night. The second game I finally got a chance to take my two sets of Primadons:

Now I know this is kind of a funky draft, but I wanted to try something different:

Ne-Gok-Sa
Jotun
G-Nators (X2)

I was up against:

Arrow Gruts
Krug
Q9
Marro
EOV

I was able to get Jotun in fast enough and destroy Q9 and inflict some damage on the troll, and then things started to look dim, my opponent - taking the EOV just because of the Gorillanators - swarmed in and soon I had lost 1 full squad and one other Primadons to the venoc elite's fury and speed.

But oh man! The remaining two Gorillanators turned it around!!! They were able (with an assist from NGS) to destroy the EOVs. Then I focused my attention on the Marros.

Now this is the coolest: my Gorillanators were on top of the glacier in the middle of the board with the highest ground as their own. The Marros could not touch them with their 2 attack! The Gorillanators had the height advantage and were rolling 2 defense with their Tough ability.

I didn't have to roll for defense very much as the marros could only come up with 1 skull most of the time.

I rushed in NGS to kill off the remaining Marro.

Well as fate (and the dice would have it), It came down to a Krug with 6 wounds versus my fresh NGS (he healed one wound via a custom glyph).

Sadly I lost, but oh man! The Gorillanators were great against the Marros. Sure, there are tons of squads that could hold up against the Marros if they're positioned on high, but the G-nators had that speed for the snow and the range to be annoying enough against all who came near.
It also helped A TON that Q9 was destroyed early on in the game. The G-Nators would have been toast against his special attack onslaught.

I totally see the Gorillanators worth for 90 points. I love using them.:thumbsup:

[shakey_snake]

Just another often overlooked praise about the G'nator's:

Their figs are some of the shortest in the game and they can hide behind just about anything.

[Teamski]

Just another often overlooked praise about the G'nator's:

Their figs are some of the shortest in the game and they can hide behind just about anything.

True, but that still doesn't conceal the fact that I hate them for everything that they are!! :verymad:

-Ski

[shakey_snake]

A little deeper reflection...
The perceived problem from both these units comes from the faact that they are not squads that are powerful just by virtue of being around, like the Krav Maga tend to be: you have to do something with them.

Both these units can be very ineffective when played wrong or used in the wrong environment. However, they can truly shine in the right circumstances.

The gorillas are neat against low-power swarms, ranged or not, and have proven some of the most effective glyph holders against melee squads, (which counter the Krav's ability), roughly on par with the Izumi, all told.

The Snipers, in an army that plays their strengths, can become the most devastating ranged draft of the all.

Both units, however, can also become very expensive cannon-fodder.

It's like drafting Taelord to boost Jotun' attack, really.
Maybe the reason some people don't like them is because they can't sit and survive like the Krav.
It takes order markers to keep the gorillas safe, unlike the Krav. It's an active defense, and those order markers can put you at a disadvantage.

I've played the G'nators before and a major problem I had is firepower. 2 attack dice just isn't enough for a 90pt squad of 3.

[feekonea]

Im going to use the gorillinators today, and see how they fair

[Jandars_Hope]

Now i have finally understood all of the rules PROPERLY i think the gorillinators and snipers are really good...i used the snipers today and they took out quite a few of my brothers squad members.
That height advantage isn't half useful!!!

[RichardD]

Snipers - their ability means that extra attack dice are a Really Good Thing - height, glyphs, auras.

Gorillinators - their ability means that they can shrug off attacks from units throwing fewer than 3 dice (a two-dice attack will only score double skulls a quarter of the time, and the G's have a one in three chance of throwing the second shield. Use their speed and range to avoid heavy hitters.

The only drawback of the Gorillinators is that there's nothing that screams "synergy" with them; unlike the Snipers, an extra defence die is not going to be any more useful than it is to any other unit; they're handy fellows in a fight, but not something to build an army around because of this drawback IMO.

[bobofett]

The snipers are only good with height advantage if your on a flat board don't use them because then you'll either do 2 damage or 0. with height you can get 0, 2, or 4 which is much better.

The gnators are good where ever because they have 7 move and can get to where they need to be and fast.

funny fight: flat map(and i mean flat, no glyphs.) gnators vs arrow gruts. arrow gruts can only do 1 damage which is cancelled out by the the gnators tough power. Millions of arrows being fired at the gnators and they don't even get a scratch.
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[TheRealQ]

I agree that the Monkey Boys have a week attack but with their high speed and the fact that they aren't a large figure gives them advantage for climbing to height giving them another die.

I think one of the best strategies with the Gorillas is Guerilla tactics. (suppose the meant it that way...hmm) With their fast movement and short stature you can easily hide them and have them pop out and focus on taking out a target. Then you can always run away, then sneak back up and do it again. Use their movement, it is their greatest asset.

[feekonea]

I used the gorillinators today and here was my team..

gorrilinators 90
srgt. drake 110
krav 100
zetain 70

I played my 9 year old sis and it wqas her third time playing, she had

kelda 80
DW9k 140
DW7K 100
syvarris 100
dtumef guard 25
ne gok sa 90
seduma 140
james murphy 75
carr 100
guitly 30
venoc warlord 120

...I wanted to go hard on her so I gave her 1020pts... so we played and played and the gorriliantors took out 260 pts so far (sudema and venoc warlord), and I end up getting them right by her starting zone so I could pick off the figs that she had not used yet. and by this time I have one gorrilinator gone, and a zettain gurad gone, and my drake getting butt raped by a ne gok sa/kelda combo, so I end up on my 2nd turn killing svyarris w/ the g nators (thats 360 pts) and them w/ my last one attack the DW9k and roll ONE skull.....she walks out the door screaming that she doesnt want to play...(by the way thats 500pts by the g nators)

[Jason]

If she knew how to play she should have used Murphy to kill your GNators. Murphy absolutely crushes them

[feekonea]

ya well thats why she got 1020 pts...

[Jason]

I take it you didn't tell her that Murphy's special attak bypasses their tough ability

[TheRealQ]

ya well thats why she got 1020 pts...

A 1020 points doesn't go very far if you don't know how to play the game. I would think you would have enjoyed it more had you let her have fewer points and told her the best way to kill you. If I was her I wouldn't want to play with you again either. I could play my 4 yr old, take the Gorillinators, and let her have all the rest of the figures, and win. That wouldn't make the apes or me great, it would just make me a bully.

[feekonea]

Look the real Q, what do you have against me? It always seems that theres something involved when ever I try doing something its wrong. Anyway, I didnt tell her because she hadnt even Brang him out yet, She tried attacking them with kelda but I told her it was bad, and exclaimed to her why. I told her to go help ne gok sa and she did, and started to destroy my srgt. Drake, I realize that I forgot about this, But you cannot blame me for accidentally doing that when I threw the first two games for her, Kept trying to remind her that road gets +3 spaces, and all of the other players abilities, and some secrets to winning, plus, It was my first tme using the g nators and forgot about murphys ability. Thatskind of why I attacked her DW I told her to draft that, as they have never let me down before, and I think only the 2nd time in all of the 15+ times ive seen them played, that they copletely wiffed. (and for the record, I didnt even use their tough ability all game)

[bobofett]

I take it you didn't tell her that Murphy's special attak bypasses their tough ability

well i guess i don't read very well i use their tough even on specials.

[TheRealQ]

Look the real Q, what do you have against me? It always seems that theres something involved when ever I try doing something its wrong. Anyway, I didnt tell her because she hadnt even Brang him out yet, She tried attacking them with kelda but I told her it was bad, and exclaimed to her why. I told her to go help ne gok sa and she did, and started to destroy my srgt. Drake, I realize that I forgot about this, But you cannot blame me for accidentally doing that when I threw the first two games for her, Kept trying to remind her that road gets +3 spaces, and all of the other players abilities, and some secrets to winning, plus, It was my first tme using the g nators and forgot about murphys ability. Thatskind of why I attacked her DW I told her to draft that, as they have never let me down before, and I think only the 2nd time in all of the 15+ times ive seen them played, that they copletely wiffed. (and for the record, I didnt even use their tough ability all game)

My apologies, I didn't realize it looked like I was attacking you. I just have a different way of teaching newbies. I had posted about it in a different thread. http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=496 I am not saying you are a bad person, I'm just saying that there is something really askew when you defeat someone who has twice as many points as you. Again, I apologize I offended you.

[feekonea]

hey its all good,Ill try your way next time we play, and get back to you on how we do. Ya I see what your saying now she gets 150% more than I do, and still loses I'll try your way next time, I guess the thing is I hate throwing games cuz their just so boring when your not playing your hardest, o well maybe I could get one of my buddies over here and that would be an even 400pt army match. :lol:

Anyways, I think the gorillinators are well worth the points.

[agent-gorillanators]

they are awsome and one of the best squads. they can kill anyone if you believe. :pray:

[marro_master]

they are awsome and one of the best squads. they can kill anyone if you believe. :pray:

any one can kill anyone if you beleive :D

[The Super Atheist]

G'nators are underrated I think.

They are fast and have decent range. Playing them properly and with the right support units you can rule the field.

you can do that with any unit.

[Chimpy]

I said this in the Book of Gorillanators Thread (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8599), but it is worth repeating, so I will say it again:

While I am here, I would like to dispel the myth that the G'nators suck. If you have two squads of these guys, add in Raelin and the Nakita, you will have an army that is pretty hard to beat.

In fact, you just need two squads of these guys to do some damage.

I think most people forget how the G'nators are different than other ranged units. Here are some of the things that stand out:

1. The G'nators have a below average defense. A defense that is lower than almost every other ranged unit. Sure, they get one certain shield, but they can only get 2 shields maximum.

2. The more defense die they get, the more their ability helps them. On the other hand, if your G'nator had 2 defense dice, they would be a force that is pretty hard to kill. 2 possible shields + 1 absolute shield beats 3 possible shields any day. This only gets better as more defense dice are added to the G’nators. If you have ever tried to kill a G’nator that is rolling 4 dice you will know what I am talking about.

3. They are fast. Very fast. For a range unit at least. They can gain the high ground easily, or they can rush for glyphs faster than other ranged units. (If you don’t know already, it is better to have ranged units on a glyph.)


So what did we learn from this? The G’nators are weak without an advantage. If you just have them sitting in the middle of the board shooting at the enemy, they will die. Luckily, the G’nators are good at getting the advantages they need. They have a high speed, so they gain height quickly. If you are playing with a G’nator based army, that should be your first priority. Get the gorillas up high. Everything you do on the first few turns should help you do this. (If your enemy gets the high ground first, he will tear you G’nators to confetti. There is no reason this should happen though.)

This is where the Nakita help your army. A few turns with them in the beginning, and your Primadons should have the glyphs, high ground, or any other advantageous position. Once you have your G’nators settled in you can begin a nice rain of death coming from their guns. In order to keep them firing away happily, I recommend having Raelin with you. (Now would be the time to move her forward. Keep her in the back until you have your positions.) A Gorillanator with height and Raelin behind him is a impossible to kill. If you can set up this formation fast, you have won the game.

So, do you guys still think these guys need to be put into the same group as DW7 and Dund?

[Bloody the Marro Stinger]

I said this in the Book of Gorillanators Thread (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8599), but it is worth repeating, so I will say it again:

While I am here, I would like to dispel the myth that the G'nators suck. If you have two squads of these guys, add in Raelin and the Nakita, you will have an army that is pretty hard to beat.

In fact, you just need two squads of these guys to do some damage.

I think most people forget how the G'nators are different than other ranged units. Here are some of the things that stand out:

1. The G'nators have a below average defense. A defense that is lower than almost every other ranged unit. Sure, they get one certain shield, but they can only get 2 shields maximum.

2. The more defense die they get, the more their ability helps them. On the other hand, if your G'nator had 2 defense dice, they would be a force that is pretty hard to kill. 2 possible shields + 1 absolute shield beats 3 possible shields any day. This only gets better as more defense dice are added to the G’nators. If you have ever tried to kill a G’nator that is rolling 4 dice you will know what I am talking about.

3. They are fast. Very fast. For a range unit at least. They can gain the high ground easily, or they can rush for glyphs faster than other ranged units. (If you don’t know already, it is better to have ranged units on a glyph.)


So what did we learn from this? The G’nators are weak without an advantage. If you just have them sitting in the middle of the board shooting at the enemy, they will die. Luckily, the G’nators are good at getting the advantages they need. They have a high speed, so they gain height quickly. If you are playing with a G’nator based army, that should be your first priority. Get the gorillas up high. Everything you do on the first few turns should help you do this. (If your enemy gets the high ground first, he will tear you G’nators to confetti. There is no reason this should happen though.)

This is where the Nakita help your army. A few turns with them in the beginning, and your Primadons should have the glyphs, high ground, or any other advantageous position. Once you have your G’nators settled in you can begin a nice rain of death coming from their guns. In order to keep them firing away happily, I recommend having Raelin with you. (Now would be the time to move her forward. Keep her in the back until you have your positions.) A Gorillanator with height and Raelin behind him is a impossible to kill. If you can set up this formation fast, you have won the game.

So, do you guys still think these guys need to be put into the same group as DW7 and Dund?

Of course, Zelrig will pose serious problems for a Gorrilanator army with Sacred Fires, capable of killing the Gorrillinators with little of fuss, ignoring smoke powder, and will likely be able to blast through Raelin.

[Barbell Hero]

I understand that this is very situational, but since it happened, it's not like it can't happen.

I played a large point game the other week, 1500 I believe. After landing the AE in round 2 and killing about 450 points worth, I moved my snipers and Taelord into position on the bridge. Opponent was left with only the 4th mass as far as ranged units.

Now is when I point out that I have since acquired a +1 attack glyph, and a +1 common attack glyph.

So we've got Taelord on a bridge surrounded with snipers who have 7 range, and 1 + 1 height + 1 aura + 2 glyphs super attack dice. Alastair MacDirk charges after picking up an artifact glyph (+2 move, +1 life, +1 attack, +1 defense). I kill him in one hit after a 5-skull deadly shot. My opponent curses, quits, and throws his dice.

Omnicron Snipers are SICKENING.

Even without any glyphs, 3 super dice from 7 range is nothing to look down on. If Q9 feels like Queggin' snipers, he's going to get CREAMED in the next turn, provided you have more than one squad, and you're already set up.

Snipers.

They need to get into sniper nests to be at their top effectiveness. Real-world snipers don't rush in with a machine gun blazing, they kick back as far as their weapons will reach with accuracy, dig in, and start killing people.

Snipers own. :)

I haven't used the Gorillinators yet, but I own 3 squads of them. Hit and run sounds awesome. Does Tough apply to leaving engagement attacks? :D

[marro_master]

I understand that this is very situational, but since it happened, it's not like it can't happen.

I played a large point game the other week, 1500 I believe. After landing the AE in round 2 and killing about 450 points worth, I moved my snipers and Taelord into position on the bridge. Opponent was left with only the 4th mass as far as ranged units.

Now is when I point out that I have since acquired a +1 attack glyph, and a +1 common attack glyph.

So we've got Taelord on a bridge surrounded with snipers who have 7 range, and 1 + 1 height + 1 aura + 2 glyphs super attack dice. Alastair MacDirk charges after picking up an artifact glyph (+2 move, +1 life, +1 attack, +1 defense). I kill him in one hit after a 5-skull deadly shot. My opponent curses, quits, and throws his dice.

Omnicron Snipers are SICKENING.

Even without any glyphs, 3 super dice from 7 range is nothing to look down on. If Q9 feels like Queggin' snipers, he's going to get CREAMED in the next turn, provided you have more than one squad, and you're already set up.

Snipers.

They need to get into sniper nests to be at their top effectiveness. Real-world snipers don't rush in with a machine gun blazing, they kick back as far as their weapons will reach with accuracy, dig in, and start killing people.

Snipers own. :)

I haven't used the Gorillinators yet, but I own 3 squads of them. Hit and run sounds awesome. Does Tough apply to leaving engagement attacks? :D

tough only applies to normal attacks :P

[Metaknight]

Overpriced...

[netherspirit]

Overpriced...

You've convinced me with your sound logic and fantastic reasoning skills.

[Barbell Hero]

:lol:

I am also convinced.

[Sweetcurse]

OK, I'm all for the "let's assume all units have their niche thing" but really, no one has played G'Nators more than I have, ask the Houston crowd. I know we want to keep heroscapers Hasbro friendly and all, but I can say with authority that the G'Nators are overpriced. Thing is that, like someone else said, the "with height and with the right support" argument does help a lot of people. But G'Nators suffer none the less. I'm infinitely annoyed by people who seem to turn a blind eye to certain things in the game. Sure, HS is amply balanced when compared to others, but it's not perfect.

I have played a TON of games with G'Nators and have found them consistently lacking. At 90 points they really should be able to do more. There's just no comparison between the G'Nators and the 70 point 4th, or even the Ashigaru rifles for 60. You get plenty more milage and offensive power from those two than anything the gorillas can dish out. If you go 10 points higher it gets worse because you run into the KM, Snipers and the amazing Microcorp.

The 7 move is great and all, but I'd take a range 7 any day. Besides, the 2 attack is just lame without any NATURAL way to make it a 3. And pairing them with Raelin is not a solution since she makes just about anyone better. Also, her 4 range aura seems to negate the 7 move as you have to keep them close to her.

As they are, being a 3 man squad with those stats, they might, MIGHT, be good at 60-70 points, but not 90.

[Bloody the Marro Stinger]

I understand that this is very situational, but since it happened, it's not like it can't happen.

I played a large point game the other week, 1500 I believe. After landing the AE in round 2 and killing about 450 points worth, I moved my snipers and Taelord into position on the bridge. Opponent was left with only the 4th mass as far as ranged units.

Now is when I point out that I have since acquired a +1 attack glyph, and a +1 common attack glyph.

So we've got Taelord on a bridge surrounded with snipers who have 7 range, and 1 + 1 height + 1 aura + 2 glyphs super attack dice. Alastair MacDirk charges after picking up an artifact glyph (+2 move, +1 life, +1 attack, +1 defense). I kill him in one hit after a 5-skull deadly shot. My opponent curses, quits, and throws his dice.

Omnicron Snipers are SICKENING.

Even without any glyphs, 3 super dice from 7 range is nothing to look down on. If Q9 feels like Queggin' snipers, he's going to get CREAMED in the next turn, provided you have more than one squad, and you're already set up.

Snipers.

They need to get into sniper nests to be at their top effectiveness. Real-world snipers don't rush in with a machine gun blazing, they kick back as far as their weapons will reach with accuracy, dig in, and start killing people.

Snipers own. :)

I haven't used the Gorillinators yet, but I own 3 squads of them. Hit and run sounds awesome. Does Tough apply to leaving engagement attacks? :D
No, Tough does not apply to leaving engagement attacks. Also, I firmly believe the Snipers are overpriced. You need a significant set up to get them to work. You suggest Taelord. Well, then you have 380 points, and that is far too much in a 500 point game, for if the opponent kills all your Snipers, chances are you're screwed. 3 defense isn't that hard to bust through, and if the opponents get height on YOU, woe is on you. You also suggest getting them to a Sniper's Perch. Chances are they'll die before getting there. Suggesting for them to get height doesn't help, really, considering that sooo many units are better by getting height.

[Barbell Hero]

Can theoryscape be any more boring? The same armies win every time, 100% of the time!

My snipers didn't die on the way to their perch. They got there just fine, and they killed literally everything that crossed their path. I lost one sniper. As a matter of fact, I used a total of 5 snipers for actual attack rolls, which means 166 points coupled with Tae's 180 points decimated over twice their point value before my opponent simply gave up; they could have done more.

"You need a significant set up to get them to work". So you are conceding that they do, in fact, work? If you can't outmaneuver your opponent, you're not going to go very far in this game.

I think the cost balances pretty well. If you get to your set-up, you rule the board and laugh and eat cake. If you don't, you get beaten up some and you can try again next time. Sounds fair to me.

This isn't theoryscape. This is "I just did this 3 nights ago in real life"scape.

[Bloody the Marro Stinger]

Can theoryscape be any more boring? The same armies win every time, 100% of the time!

First off, where do you get the idea that the same armies win every time? I don't think I said anything of the sort. What I AM saying is that a Sniper army is less likely to win then say... a Microcorp army.

My snipers didn't die on the way to their perch. They got there just fine, and they killed literally everything that crossed their path. I lost one sniper. As a matter of fact, I used a total of 5 snipers for actual attack rolls, which means 166 points coupled with Tae's 180 points decimated over twice their point value before my opponent simply gave up; they could have done more.

That's fine and dandy in a 1500 point game with a large map, but more often I see people playing 500 point games with smaller maps. In a 500 point game, they won't really have their place. 380 points for 2 snipers and Taelord is really a risk that doesn't pay off well in a 500 point game.

"You need a significant set up to get them to work". So you are conceding that they do, in fact, work? If you can't outmaneuver your opponent, you're not going to go very far in this game.

Yes, they do work, but only when you have Taelord and height. With that, I'd rather get units that constantly do well without such immense preparation. I'm not sure what you mean by the manuever comment - certaintly I could turn it against you and say that I could get to your "sniper's perch" before you do with Elite Onyx Vipers. I'd also like more info on the map and the opposing armies, please, so I know what you're up against.

I think the cost balances pretty well. If you get to your set-up, you rule the board and laugh and eat cake. If you don't, you get beaten up some and you can try again next time. Sounds fair to me.
Chances are more times then not you'll get beaten to the set up location. When that happens, you're screwed, and it will happen more times then not with units such as Deathreavers and Elite Onyx Vipers and I'm sure some other units I'm missing that are faster then the Snipers and will get there first. It's not really fair if the set up fails more often then not.

This isn't theoryscape. This is "I just did this 3 nights ago in real life"scape.
That's all fine and dandy, but I don't know what map you're playing on, who you're facing, what EXACTLY happened...
In other words, you can't just say "I killed opponents with this awesome combo!" and expect it to tide people over. I need more info, that's that. After all, if the map you were playing on had the perch right next to you, that wouldn't fare too well for your argument, would it?

[Barbell Hero]

I'm sorry, I didn't know I needed notarized written proof to report on Heroscape games. :roll:

I don't understand why you are always so aggressive with people trying to disagree with you. This is a BOARD GAME. I don't have to prove to you that my map or my opponent were "legitimate" for my statements to have validity. That is HOG WASH. If you think the snipers suck, don't freaking use them, but don't urinate all over people who can use them well and enjoy playing them simply because they don't fit neatly into your 500 point army.

Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe a player is good enough that they can use a 5 movement unit to outmaneuver a 6 movement unit? Owning Deathreavers or Vipers doesn't make a player immune to being beaten to a piece of terrain.

Plus, I could quite honestly not care any less about the point value of the games that you play or see played, because I don't game with you. Your opinion on the point values of my games are equally worthless to me, because, again, I do not game with you, and it really has no bearing on reality for me.

Snipers have their place, they are well-costed units for the utter destruction they can wreak in the right situations, even if their place isn't in your 500 point army.

I swear, some people on this board act like playing anything other than 500 points is cheating or something.

[marro_master]

I'm sorry, I didn't know I needed notarized written proof to report on Heroscape games. :roll:

I don't understand why you are always so aggressive with people trying to disagree with you. This is a BOARD GAME. I don't have to prove to you that my map or my opponent were "legitimate" for my statements to have validity. That is HOG WASH. If you think the snipers suck, don't freaking use them, but don't urinate all over people who can use them well and enjoy playing them simply because they don't fit neatly into your 500 point army.

Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe a player is good enough that they can use a 5 movement unit to outmaneuver a 6 movement unit? Owning Deathreavers or Vipers doesn't make a player immune to being beaten to a piece of terrain.

Plus, I could quite honestly not care any less about the point value of the games that you play or see played, because I don't game with you. Your opinion on the point values of my games are equally worthless to me, because, again, I do not game with you, and it really has no bearing on reality for me.

Snipers have their place, they are well-costed units for the utter destruction they can wreak in the right situations, even if their place isn't in your 500 point army.

I swear, some people on this board act like playing anything other than 500 points is cheating or something.

yes i agree this is a board game, so DON'T ARGUE, its just made for having fun with each other, not something to fight over! :evil: besides stinger was just asking some questions no need to bite his head off, if the board was in your favor he would be right. and you should care about stingers, or anybodys oppinions for that matter, even mine. oppinions help so they do matter. and he wasn't "urinateing" on you, he was simply giving advice about them, they are useless without hieght.