Intensive Army Analysis: Japan

[Tai-Pan]

Wind rushes across the army, snapping the golden banner to and fro, as the samurai form ranks. The Ashigaru form the brunt of the force, with spearman standing just behind those armed with harquebuses. On the flanks and to the rear await groups of samurai, each the pride of their province. Just behind the front line stands the Hatamoto, bearing the standard of this army, and with him is Kaemon Awa, a great warrior renowned for his skill with both bow and sword. This is the grand and mighty army of Nippon.

Hatamoto Taro
Kaemon Awa
Ashigaru Harquebus
Ashigaru Yari
Kozuke Samurai
Izumi Samurai
Tagawa Samurai
Tagawa Samurai Archers

[Manatee]

Aren't you leaving out a few cards' worth of ninja?

[jedi_imperium]

I love samurai!! Usually my family plays with 500 point battles, so I use
Hatamoto Taro 130
Kaemon Awa 120
Tagawa Samurai 120
Tagawa Archers 65
Izumi Samurai 60
This army is amazing, especially Mr. Awa. He once took out three knights (of weston) in one turn with counterstrike. I have lost only once, and even that game was incredibly close and fun.

(And by the way, Ninja are most certainly NOT samurai. Besides, if we added all of the ninja, this themed army wouldn't be pure Einar, and that's just sick.)

[guido]

Aren't you leaving out a few cards' worth of ninja?

They're playing poker with Keto Katsuro in the officers tent.

[Jade Cros]

There are two problems with samurai armies in my oppinion, first is the relative lack of "semi" durable common squads.

The three common samurai(ish) squads are the Yari with a fragile defense of 1, the Harquebus with a fragile defense of 1, and the Tagawa Archers with an average defense of 3. Excluding the Archers, the common squads of a samurai themed army are pitifully weak, defense-wise anyway.

Now this can be a blessing, as far as Im concerned. Either your opponent underestimates "the fodder" and focuses most of there attention on your more expensive, better defended (save for the kosuke) units, allowing you to use your relatively high attacking "fodder" to eliminate there units. Or they focus on the multiple squads of "fodder" you might be fielding, and leave themselves open for attacks from the higher costing samurai.

Personally I feel the first option is better, because with 1 defense, the Ashigaru arent going to last if your opponent focuses his might on them.

Second, most Samurai are unique, and expensive! Just to field all three unique samurai squads your looking at 280 points, more than half of your typical 500 points! Them being medium and therefore susceptible to nearly every squad-killing ability in the game further complicates the issue. Anything that autowounds (Cyprien, Sonlen, Kee Mo Shi, etc) also spells trouble for Samurai, even more so then some other armies I've played.

Losing a squad figure to Sonlen's Dragon Swoop might be annoying, but to lose a third of 120 points in one figure? Thats down right depressing.

Things look pretty bleak for the Samurai, but they've got there pros too. Each of them (except the Izumi and Archers), can have high attack values in the right situations. Most of them can even fight while defending via counterstrike. With Raelin or Taro behind them, it becomes even easier to counter-kill, but then again, Raelin is no samurai, and Im not much of a fan of Taro (though I'd still pay 14.99 for the neat Einar themed dice)

Lets not forget they fight alongside one of the best heroes in the game, Kaemon Awa. He alone makes the Samurai team fieldable! Even if you lose, you can die knowing your units are some of the coolest looking in the game.

[Tai-Pan]

Aren't you leaving out a few cards' worth of ninja?

No. Ninja don't really belong with the samurai. Historically, though ninja were of the same time period and area as the samurai, they did not fight on the battlefields with them. Ninja were dishonorable assassains while the samurai lived and died by a code of honor. I'm changing the name to Samurai army instead of Japan so that should take care of that. And as soon as wave 8 comes out, Kato will join the ranks.

[NFCfan]

the major flaw with the sumarai is that their main ability of counterstrike is worthless against ranged attacks and range dominates this game

[guido]

Aren't you leaving out a few cards' worth of ninja?

No. Ninja don't really belong with the samurai. Historically, though ninja were of the same time period and area as the samurai, they did not fight on the battlefields with them. Ninja were dishonorable assassains while the samurai lived and died by a code of honor. I'm changing the name to Samurai army instead of Japan so that should take care of that. And as soon as wave 8 comes out, Kato will join the ranks.

They are Einar units from Japan, and thus should be considered in this themed army strategy discussion. Their lack of 'honor' allows them to perform tasks that the samurai cannot. They are like the special forces compared to the army. Ninjas would get sent in to take out a key person or over all weaken the opponent, leaving the samurai to clean things up. If the title does get changed to samurai, then the Ashigaru should be left out of this discussion.

[Jade Cros]

I would only classify counterstrike as a really good perk, and not so much a "main ability".

Certainly there effectiveness isnt maximised by going toe to toe with ranged figures, but that could be said with any melee figure. Having a good mix of harq or samurai archers could alleviate this seemingly "major" weakness, not to mention that many figures in the samurai army have above average move ratings (6 for tagawa and izumi, 8* for kosuke) and above average defense (5 for tagawa and izumi).

And as soon as you close the gap and engage, that Counterstrike starts kicking in again.

Not to say going all melee samurai is going to yield a clean victory against an all ranged army, but they arent to shabby as far as melee figures go.

[guido]

Oh, and welcome to the site, Jade Cros. Those were some very well thought out first posts!

[Mooseman]

I think Samurai work better as complements to other armies than as a pure samurai army. Awasome is a relatively cheap option for a hard hitting special attack, and the insane attack and move of the kozuke make then excellent for taking out low defense high life heroes. Even if they get one turn of attacks against the likes of Braxas Jotun or Q-9, they can easily deal 4,4 or 2 wounds respectively.

[jedi_imperium]

the major flaw with the sumarai is that their main ability of counterstrike is worthless against ranged attacks and range dominates this game
That might be so, but the best samurai unit is ranged (Kaemon, don't even try to argue), and 4-5 defense is still nothing to sneeze at. The kozuke might be a little weaker, but they should still be able to get close enough soon enough.

I like ninja as much as the next guy, but in this army they don't seem to fit as well. I prefer putting them with other Einar units, such as the Imperium and Kiova.

[Jade Cros]

Oh, and welcome to the site, Jade Cros. Those were some very well thought out first posts!

Thanks for the welcome! I normally just play and read articles, but themed armies are something I know a bit about - I like to play them a lot.

They arent nearly as competitive as other armies, that is for sure, but they definitely do not lack in the "cool looking" department.

[Manatee]

I added the ninja because the thread is about a Japanese army, not a samurai army.

[SpartanNinja]

I think Samurai work better as complements to other armies than as a pure samurai army.

I agree that they complement other armies better than as a themed army, but with the new samurai hero coming out the themed army will have a huge advantage over just about any other army.

[guido]

I think Samurai work better as complements to other armies than as a pure samurai army.

I agree that they complement other armies better than as a themed army, but with the new samurai hero coming out the themed army will have a huge advantage over just about any other army.

Except an army that can sneak Dund in behind enemy lines.

[Tai-Pan]

I think Samurai work better as complements to other armies than as a pure samurai army.

I agree that they complement other armies better than as a themed army, but with the new samurai hero coming out the themed army will have a huge advantage over just about any other army.

Except an army that can sneak Dünd in behind enemy lines.

That's what I really enjoy about HeroScape, and I hope WotC will keep it up. New units breathe life into old ones, they don't just render them obselete.

[guido]

I cannot wait for the two new ninjas to come out! I want to play samurai vs. ninja so insanely bad!

[Greenoystercult]

I dont have ashigarus of my own, but I am going to buy a few packs soon. Its a little dependant on intiative rolls, But here is my stratagy:

Kozuki-100/100
Izumi-60/160
Awa-120/280
Ashigari yari x3 40/40/40/400

Turn(s) 1-2
Hang back a little, position your izumi in the front to draw fire (if any.)
Line up your yaris
Get Kozuki ready to rush out and engage

Turns 3-4
Engage the opponent's heros with Kozuki
Keep pressure on non-engaged opponents with Awa
Move yaris foreward and use encircle

Turns 5-end
make sure all opponents are engaged with a samurai (probably izumi by now)

Let me know what you think!

[Heroscape Elffy]

Well, thats an interesting strategy, and welcome to the site. The problem with that strategy, is that if you loose 1 squad, your plan is useless. Q9, Braxas, Nilfheim...they could all destroy this army very easily, as only one figure is not a squad.

[Greenoystercult]

Thanks for the welcome Elf. I feel that the Kizukie are expendable, as well as the yaris. There are 12 yaris total, so dwindling there numbers down to, lets say 6, would be the maximum i could loose in 2 turns. By then, there should be some massive damadge to there heros/ squads. after all, encircle can be used 3 times.

[Heroscape Elffy]

No, encircle can only be used once a turn. Your just combining the 3 figures attacks into one. And also, I prefer Elffy. Elf is just so demoralizing...shut it guido! ;)

[Phoenix 133]

I think the nijas overall suck.
The japanese's only good people are the tagawa and kozuke
just my personal thoughts

[lefton4ya]

I think the nijas overall suck.
The japanese's only good people are the tagawa and kozuke
just my personal thoughts

I agree - thats why I custom mod the Ninjas of the Northern Wind to have Ninja Hero bonding.

Welcome to the site. Thanks for searching and/or browsing old threads.

[hivelord]

I think the nijas overall suck.
The japanese's only good people are the tagawa and kozuke
just my personal thoughts

A necro of a 2 year old thread that was only 1.5 pages and inconsequential to begin with. Thats...

typical. :roll: :headshake:

Haha. I am always surprised when someone actually finds these.

[GatekeeperDatuck]

Hivelord, I think we should be grateful that he is searching and talking on old threads. At least, you did not like it when another guy started a new thread on Dund:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30182
People like to talk about Heroscape, and either a new thread must be started or another necro'd if the topic hasn't come up in a while. Cut them some slack please.
I don't mean to sound uppity or self-righteous or anything, and I don't want to start any arguments. It is just that this site is for discussing Heroscape, and sure, some threads will not be particularly insightful or anything, but that's okay. They will drop off the front page quickly.

[nyys]

We'd be greatful if there was anything useful added to the conversation. All that was added was that the samurai 'suck.'

Not useful.

[Kroc]

We'd be greatful if there was anything useful added to the conversation. All that was added was that the samurai 'suck.'
Not useful. Yea, newbie with a vengence. He did this to another thread as well. I figured I'd let someone else razz him for it, and you guys did. Thank you!

[Krizo]

I think the Japanese should have lots of agishuru.

SWARM OF THE ASAIN!!

[Takanuva]

We'd be greatful if there was anything useful added to the conversation. All that was added was that the samurai 'suck.'

Not useful.

On the contrary, he said that the "nijas" suck, not samurai. This presents us with two problems. First of all, he must not have searched hard because this thread is about samurai. Second of all, either he misspelled, he has inside information on future waves, or he comes from an alternate plane where weak nijas run rampant among the streets. :p

[lafleurhero]

well, I'm kinda glad this topic came back even though nothing good has been added yet. I think I'm about to.

I think the biggest problem with Samuri is the lack of any real bonding. Sure the Ashgaru have it but not really the samuri themselves. They are so weak against ranged units and the best units still could not be used in an all melee battle. I think the Samuri really need a hero that gives bonuses specificly to Samuri. I'm thinking some kind of hero that gives a free move to up to 3 Samuri every time you take a turn. Knights have one and Agents have two. Samuri need it most and would get most out of it, so this would be the perfect addition. Perhaps the stats on the Hero itself could be fairly weak but the ability to move other Samuri could make a Samuri army fairly useable.

[GatekeeperDatuck]

However, the samurai do have some positives:
Multiple tough melee squads.
Decent ranged squads, though they will be outclassed by other dedicated range armies.
A hero with a double special attack.
A squad that can move 8 spaces and attacks with 5 dice.

It would be cool if they added mounted samurai/archers to fill in the need (which you correctly pointed out) of a little more ability.

As a theme, they have more units, with various abilities, dedicated to them than most (Marro and Orcs being two other big ones).

[killercactus]

well, I'm kinda glad this topic came back even though nothing good has been added yet. I think I'm about to.

I think the biggest problem with Samuri is the lack of any real bonding. Sure the Ashgaru have it but not really the samuri themselves. They are so weak against ranged units and the best units still could not be used in an all melee battle. I think the Samuri really need a hero that gives bonuses specificly to Samuri. I'm thinking some kind of hero that gives a free move to up to 3 Samuri every time you take a turn. Knights have one and Agents have two. Samuri need it most and would get most out of it, so this would be the perfect addition. Perhaps the stats on the Hero itself could be fairly weak but the ability to move other Samuri could make a Samuri army fairly useable.

I really think the Samurai would be fine if Hatamoto Taro didn't suck. The remake they did for him in the Competitive Unit Congress should be enough to make them OK, IMO.

[Brewster]

In all seriousness, I think a bonus of the Ahigaru armies mainly is the harquebus. They throw some mean OMG volleys, and if your rolls are lucky on all your attacks you've done some serious damage for cheap points.

The Yari need some love, however. They are like fast, weak zombies. If the ZoM are "Dawn of the Dead" staggering zombies, then the Yari are Left4Dead runner zombies. Power in numbers. They make up for the no regenerate power by being twice as cheap per man.
I would love to see some Yari builds. There's just something about that mass of spears that gets me fired up.

[lefton4ya]

The Samurai are best when you can have 700-1000 point armies and no starting size limit (or at least 30) to get 6 or more total squads of Ashigaru, Kato, Hatamoto, some Unique Samurai Squads, and maybe Raelin or Taelord. I always though if I ever play a 700 or more point army I would play:
Ashigaru Harquebus x 3 = 180
Ashigaru Yari x 3 = 300
Hato Katsuro = 500
Taelord = 680
And if you have room in points add Raelin and more Ashigaru. Imagine 8 attacks of 3 per turn - killer!