Theory of Left Activity

[SpartanNinja]

Hey, I know I'm new and all (not to the game), but I've seen plenty of threads and never seen any cover this subject.

Who to attack? Not as in what figure to attack (which has been covered), but rather what player or opponent (in a none team game with 3 or more players).

The main rule of thumb is always direct yourself to the player to your left especially if you go before them. The reason for this should be obvious, when rolling for initiative the only way the left opponent can precede you is by winning the roll. Which means that you have at least a 66% chance (in a 3 player game, more chance with more players) to go before the left player.

EXAMPLE: P1 is playing a game with P2, P3, and P4. P1 wins the first initiative roll and play proceeds to the left with P2 next followed by P3 who in turn is followed by P4. P1 moves the bulk of his army towards P2, creating a larger expanse between hisself and P4, and damages or destroys figures with order markers on there cards in P2's army. P2 retaliates but was unprepared for P1's full fledged attack. P3 could now either further damage P2, virtually destroying the hopes of P2 winning, or start another seperate battle with P4 which would have a better outcome for him. P4 is left with chasing down P1 or fighting P3 neither truly being to his advantage. Next round, P1 should have no worries (unless of course luck played into P2 hand). Let's say P3 wins initiative and attacks P4, and P4 retaliates. P1 can now again take the advantage of preceding P2 again and removes P2 from the board by targeting the key figures (referred to in the INGP value article), and leaves almost unscathed. P3 has a similar result and now you're left with a 2 player game.

Do you see how with P1 vs P2 the initiative was in P1's favor, because if either P3, P4, or P1 himself won the roll P1 would precede P2 (the player to his left). Of course there is always that chance that the left player's army is stronger in which case you should let him attack his left and you should prepare for the long haul with your right sided opponent (and being prepared does give you a whole lot of a better chance at survival than not doing so).

Just in case you don't believe me. In all cases P2 is to P1's left.

3 player game: 66% chance P1 precedes P2
4 player game: 75% chance P1 precedes P2
5 player game: 80% chance P1 precedes P2
6 player game: 83% chance P1 precedes P2
7 player game: 86% chance P1 precedes P2
8 player game: 88% chance P1 precedes P2

Pretty convincing numbers there, eh.

But now everybody knows this strategy and it will all rely upon whether you won the initiative or not (or if your P1 then P3, P5, or any other odd numbered opponent).And I'm sure somebody out there will eventually figure out a counter strategy (one has to exist somehow, right?).

Disclaimer: If this makes all your games boring and predictable, your the one that chose to use this technique. I only suggest this as a possible strategy and you should be aware that it is only a strategy and certain circumstances may make the left a poor choice to attack (such as huge height advantages, etc.).

I didn't use specific figures in the example for fear of it being to complicated and/or more lengthy.

Give me some feedback.

[Jexik]

And as the number of players in a game approaches infinity, the guy to your left's chance of going before you goes to zero. ;)

I definitely appreciate a bit of mathematical logic. Ceteris paribus, this shows that it makes sense to hit the guy to your left whenever playing in a Free for All game with 3 or more players. Well, I guess it works for two players too, but then you don't really have a choice.

I've been playing a lot more 1v1 games lately, or 2v2, but the next time I play a three player game I'll keep this in mind. On the other hand, I'll also be on the look out for other factors, like who has the lead, whose units match up better against mine, who is the best player, etc... I find that lots of these hard and fast rules need to be amended when you get into the game itself. And what if you win the initiative? Would it then be good to go against this theory and attack the guy to your right, since if he's following this logic he'll want to attack you?

Welcome to the site SpartanNinja. Is the first half of your name referencing the actual Spartans, the graphic novel version, or perhaps the Halo guys with the same name?

[SpartanNinja]

It's more of an opening move anyway. And being prepared for the right sided opponent should be considered, but moving to your left would mean that the right sided opponent would have to cover more ground to attack you (especially if your prepared).

Spartan as in the actual Spartans.

Thanks for the welcome. :D

[rdhight]

Good topic, SpartanNinja! I would add a couple of cautions, though.

First of all, if I'm going before you, I would consider my 1 marker to be more valuable than yours, but your 3 marker to be more valuable than mine. If you're planning on delivering big blows with your 3, you might not want to go left as much. I usually want to go last in the first round, because having the better 1 marker isn't as good as the possibility of having the better 3 later (when there's a greater chance of being in contact).

Second, every time you approach an army that is currently moving after you, you're exposing yourself to the lucky initiative switch. When you approach an army currently moving before you, you set yourself up to possibly take two turns in a row instead.

Third, I think the most important thing in a free-for-all game is above all not to let someone sit out. Punish the conservatives! If one player comes at me while the other hangs back, #@&% going left, I'm going for the guy who wants to watch the fight and finish off the winner.

Still, excellent post!

[bunjee]

Actually, this is part of the reason that we've shifted to rolled initiative order for turn order. We use playing cards to track who goes 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Clockwise from highest roller just seems to cause that left biased gang up.

[allskulls]

Actually, this is part of the reason that we've shifted to rolled initiative order for turn order. We use playing cards to track who goes 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Clockwise from highest roller just seems to cause that left biased gang up.
Same here. Plus it gives only the holder of the initiative glyph the bonus and not the one sitting "after" him/her a boost for going 2nd. 2 on 2 games should alternate between the teams.

[SpartanNinja]

Good points all. :)

[quote]bunjee wrote:
Actually, this is part of the reason that we've shifted to rolled initiative order for turn order. We use playing cards to track who goes 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Clockwise from highest roller just seems to cause that left biased gang up.

[quote]allskulls wrote:
Same here. Plus it gives only the holder of the initiative glyph the bonus and not the one sitting "after" him/her a boost for going 2nd. 2 on 2 games should alternate between the teams.

Here's my problem with this though, in the rule book it specifically states that "At the beginning of a round, each player rolls the 20-sided die for initiative. The player with the highest roll will get to take each of his turns first. Play then passes to the left...."

So shifting the rolled initiative like that is actually against the rules. And I'm pretty sure the heroscape designers (great minds that they are) put the teamates together just because of the play passing to the left. But of course you can play however you like.

[SpartanNinja]

Shoot! I thought I had the quote thing figured out! :oops:

[killercactus]

Shoot! I thought I had the quote thing figured out! :oops:

you need a {quote="someone's name"} before each quote and a {/quote} at the end, but replace the { and } with [ and ] (I couldn't do it because it would have actually shown up as a quote in my post.... man, I hope I didn't just confuse you more....)

[allskulls]

So shifting the rolled initiative like that is actually against the rules.
=
So shifting the rolled initiative like that is actually against the rules.
Rules? Ha. :D

Really, some rules are easily altered to benefit game balance and fun without detracted much at all from the game. One of the main ones, usually for tournaments, is victory points. Victory points is supposed to be derived from survival points but is usually taken from kill points or a combination of both.

[SpartanNinja]

Really, some rules are easily altered to benefit game balance and fun without detracted much at all from the game. One of the main ones, usually for tournaments, is victory points. Victory points is supposed to be derived from survival points but is usually taken from kill points or a combination of both.

I'm generally pretty strict on the rule following thing, but it is probably a rule that can amended if you wanted to. Still there are some aspects of the game that the clockwise turn order (such as the subject of this article, and even in game politics such as alliances) gives more practical advantages or disadvantages to.

Thanks for showing me the quote thing too. :D

[bunjee]

Really, some rules are easily altered to benefit game balance and fun without detracted much at all from the game. One of the main ones, usually for tournaments, is victory points. Victory points is supposed to be derived from survival points but is usually taken from kill points or a combination of both.

I'm generally pretty strict on the rule following thing, but it is probably a rule that can amended if you wanted to. Still there are some aspects of the game that the clockwise turn order (such as the subject of this article, and even in game politics such as alliances) gives more practical advantages or disadvantages to.

Thanks for showing me the quote thing too. :DWe generally consider the clockwise thing to be the standard way of doing turns to avoid book keeping in most games. Since it is fairly random who sat where, changing the order after who goes first has not had much impact.

I think we started this because for the longest time, I always won initiative. In a freakishly consistent manner.

[nyys]

Our group has done it both ways, the rule book way and in order of actual D20 roll for each person, I think I prefer the latter (especially in team games).

[SpartanNinja]

The only problem with the random order thing is that, when forming alliances (which is often done in the games I play), your allies will not be able to assist you in the same more efficient manner. When your ally is sitting next to you, collaboration is more successful, and doubling up (a very real strategy) is easier. But if the person next to you is taking his turn after an opponent (which very well could have been crippled before he was even able to move) the strength of the alliance weakens, because no protective or strategic promises can be made :( .

I personally enjoy the strategy, alliances, backstabbing, and trust involved with a more orderly game than just annihalating everybody in your way in a world of entropy and chaos anyway. :wink:

[STAROCEAN980]

We roll different colored Valkyrie dice at my house. And we go from highest roller to lowest.

[SpartanNinja]

Okay... so you own a couple of flag bearers... and the relevance is? :?

I still cannot stress enough the power an alliance holds if everyone in it is working together one right after the other. If everyone works together can you imagine the destruction that would lie in their wake?

You're looking at this to much from a defensive view, think of the advantages you would have if you made a strong alliance.

Who cares about the people you're against winning, YOU want to win. Right? Then take advantage of the leftward movement, everyone in the game has the same advantage (you're sitting in a circle!) it's just a matter of luck who gets the choice first.

HOORAY! Celebration time! Page 2!!! :D :D :D

[hakysak]

I think that the biggest reason why teammates should sit next to each other is so that they could discuss strategy.

As far as play passing to the left vs initiative order, it depends on what kind of game you're playing. Initiative order is more competitive, so that (with enough people) you have to plan against everyone's tactics, not just the one of the person on each side. Play passing to the left is a good rule for beginners, as it keeps the game that much simpler to learn. I play both ways at times, so it don't matter.

You could do initiative like D&D, where whatever the order of initiative rolled in the first round remains for the rest of the battle, but that sounds dumb.

[rdhight]

hakysak, your sig is really making me mad. Has your account been hacked, or did you mean for those card images to be there? If you must have giant, off-topic, Monty-Python-quoting graphics in your sig (WTF!?), could you at least do us the courtesy of not stretching our screens sideways? I'm reading this board on 1024x768, and I shouldn't have to scroll horizontally because of someone's un-funny and way out-of-place homemade Magic cards!

[hakysak]

hakysak, your sig is really making me mad. Has your account been hacked, or did you mean for those card images to be there? If you must have giant, off-topic, Moty-Python-quoting graphics in your sig (WTF!?), could you at least do us the courtesy of not stretching our screens sideways? I'm reading this board on 1024x768, and I shouldn't have to scroll horizontally because of someone's un-funny and way out-of-place homemade Magic cards!

I just started experimenting with my sig. As far as un-funny and way out-of-place sigs, a lot of people on this site has them. It came up fine on my screen, and i am sorry that it didn't on yours. However, there is no reason to try to harp on me or my sig just because you have a problem. All you had to do was tell me what the problem was.

[hakysak]

So there.

[rdhight]

Thank you very much.

Sorry for the outburst; Monty Python and images that force sideways scrolling are just two things that bug me more than most people. But it was still uncalled for.

[hakysak]

Like I said, I was experimenting. Right now I should have only three card in my sig, is this what was too wide, cause I can't tell.

[rdhight]

Yes; I saw three cards side-by-side, and it was too much for my standard-aspect monitor to handle. Maybe on one of those 16:9 laptop screens, it would have been okay.

[hakysak]

Does this look better?

[rdhight]

Yup, that fits on my screen fine.

(I still hate Monty Python, though.)

[nyys]

Gigantic sig = Annoying

Monty Py-thon = Awesome

[SpartanNinja]

Okay... um... so I don't know where that went. :?

True, you could play either way, but creating an alliance with the players beside you means that, when you attack an opponent, you are able to gang up against them, which is the point.

All this "following the highest initiative roll"... it's just an excuse for all the people who aren't aggresive enough to actually win more often.

When you move to the left it requires that you consider the opponent on each side. The one that went before you (and either moved against you or away from you) and the opponent that follows you (which could move against you or away from you as well). Rather than the random jumping around which promotes staying in the starting position due to the unpredictability of the players turns.

Thus just following the rules makes the game smoother and move along quicker.

[MattMan5]

Yeah if i was playing a 3 player i'd attack the guy to the left if i won the initiative roll

[SpartanNinja]

Thank you MattMan5 for acknowledging the strategy. :D :thumbsup: