Heros-Up to par?

[feekonea]

Maybe its just me, but doesnt it seem like heros that are 100+ points never kill their fair share of points? Most of the heros under this i can see, but with the "mass commons phase" taking over heroscape right now it never seems like the heros do much. The squads are just too quick. Thoughts? comments? Im not dissing everything about heros a 100 or more points, like syvarris, he happens to be very good, or krug, or marcus because of his power up ability. but other than that i happens to be a fine line between the worthy and the seems like it but not so worthy. Like major Braxas, 8 life? psssshhhh no staying power when its 3 defense. It just seems like their is very little use for heros over 100 points that dont do much when its mass hordes. IMO the best armies that I know of right now are Lilwis's 5x 4th mass and me bur sa. and UPC's 2 legos, 2 mass, marcus, who is only there for bonding and power ups. and Me burg sa. (classic armies by the way guys. Phnomonal (sp?) job). It just seems to me that whenver I play these heros, They never do their jobs, I mean sure 1 out of every 10 times they might get lucky or have a good game, but if this game was really balanced, they should AT LEAST do 3 out of 10, considering they were in good hands. oKAY im done. feedback please. Oh and be happy to merge if neccisary, sorry I tried my best.

[CornPuff]

Mass squads are very powerful right now. I can't disagree. In fact, as pointed out in the mass mass thread, there are no heroes that can go point to point with the infinite minutemen (except maybe brunak).

However, if your enemies numbers are not infinite, a Hero is a good choice to lead the charge. Frequently, the 1st squad of a common heavy player is the hardest to kill, and a Hero is the perfect way to do it.

I like a lot of the sub 100 heroes, but thats off topic.

100+?There are 27 heroes. 160+? there are only 7.

I think a lot of the 100ish heroes can be worth it. Especially if they have bonding. A melee bonding squad needs the extra life and offense if they are going to charge a ranged formation.

160+ heroes? The only one I really like is Nilf. His defense is respectable, and his attack will at least dent most squads. His movement will also keep him out of most trouble.

I too would like to see a 140 point hero that could take out 3 squads of Minutemen before dying.

[Hahma]

Venoc Warlord seems like he's got some decent value if he's with his buddies that he meshes with.

VW = 120
AV x2 = 130
VV x2 = 80
AA = 70

Totoal = 400

I've not tried this army yet (too chicken to commit to a themed army with so few ranged units), but the VW makes the VV's move a 9 and adds 1 to chance to frenzy and move/attack again and again as long as you roll high on the 20d. This holds true with the Aubrien Archers too, VW adds 1 to the 20d roll on their frenzy, so they could keep attacking as long as you roll high on the 20d. The Armoc Vipers have the warlord bonding and have a decent 3 attack and 3 defense but can move 7.

I guess my strategy with this army would be pretty much an all or nothing assault. Using the speed of the vipers and hoping to roll well on the frenzies. Close in fast and take away range from the ranged units and hope that speed and numbers will prevail.

[Hahma]

You can also replace 1 squad of Armoc Vipers with Deadeye Dan that way you can hold your army back out of 4th mass range and widdle them down with Dan. Keep your vipers next to Dan and if the 4th mass try to move within range, you can then be on them in one move witht he vipers while getting support from Dan AND the Aubriens. If the 4th mass don't move, then it will be a long game of Dan pecking away at them with his massive distance.

[krai]

I like heros and it is too bad that massing is just wipeing them out most expensive heros are olny good against commons if they can use some sort of AoE attack or get mor then 1 attack cheap heros may not fair well againts the commons ethier but heck atleast it isnt to much points to lose

[Hahma]

With myself, bro in-law and nephew only HS'ing for a few months, we haven't gotten into the mass common trend.

For one thing, we didn't have that many multiples of commons as it took time to to aquire all the different items. I've only begun to purchase 2nds of 4th mass/wolves and snipers/vipers. So between us we still only have 2xromans, 2x4th mass/wolves, 3xvipers/omi's, 2xaubriens.

As we've kept getting new characters, we like to try them ( the last new guys being the Braxas/Nilf/Jotan/Q9 and Theracus crew).

My 10yr-old nephew isn't into commons. He's into Deathwalkers, Marrows and Braxas.

My bro in-law mixes things up pretty good but has yet to do multiple commons, and he doesn't have any 4th mass/wolves.

Maybe I'll start adopting the multiple common themes and see how they stack up against their hero armies. Then I can give a better opinion.

[Grungebob]

I am personally not afraid to play against an all squad in a tourney army using just a few heroes and a couple of squads. If somebody is so competitive that they feel as though taking these horde armies is going to give them an edge then that's their thing. When I win I am happy because I feel as though I usually take a balanced style army.

Now in a friendly game there is always the draft to solve these issue you guys are bringing up. If somebody starts drafting Mass, you can allways counter draft by cancelling their advantage with some 4th Mass of your own!!

[MBSowards]

I think heroes still rule. We aren't playing Commonscape.

[Grungebob]

I just think that all these people complaining about squads being "broken" are forgetting that the DRAFT is one of the important parts of this game and that if you use the draft effectively, you will find that the impact of squads is far reduced.

[Hahma]

I just think that all these people complaining about squads being "broken" are forgetting that the DRAFT is one of the important parts of this game and that if you use the draft effectively, you will find that the impact of squads is far reduced.


Exactly, Grungebob. :word:

With the limited crew that I play with, we have only done draft games and haven't tried the pre-made armies. So like you said, one can counter someone's plan by drafting accordingly. What's a 4th Mass army going to do against Kravs, Drake, Deadeye Dan and Sylvarris?

[Grungebob]

I just think that all these people complaining about squads being "broken" are forgetting that the DRAFT is one of the important parts of this game and that if you use the draft effectively, you will find that the impact of squads is far reduced.


Exactly, Grungebob. :word:

With the limited crew that I play with, we have only done draft games and haven't tried the pre-made armies. So like you said, one can counter someone's plan by drafting accordingly. What's a 4th Mass army going to do against Kravs, Drake, Deadeye Dan and Sylvarris?Or tit for tat drafting? You draft 4th Mass... So do I.

[Hahma]

I just think that all these people complaining about squads being "broken" are forgetting that the DRAFT is one of the important parts of this game and that if you use the draft effectively, you will find that the impact of squads is far reduced.


Exactly, Grungebob. :word:

With the limited crew that I play with, we have only done draft games and haven't tried the pre-made armies. So like you said, one can counter someone's plan by drafting accordingly. What's a 4th Mass army going to do against Kravs, Drake, Deadeye Dan and Sylvarris?Or tit for tat drafting? You draft 4th Mass... So do I.


Or in your case, eyeball for eyball :rimshot:

[feekonea]

I just think that all these people complaining about squads being "broken" are forgetting that the DRAFT is one of the important parts of this game and that if you use the draft effectively, you will find that the impact of squads is far reduced.


Like me? Haha thanks for the feedback guys. I was more talking about pre made armies, and not knowing what your opponent will have. But I guess that my fault for not saying it.

[Grungebob]

I just think that all these people complaining about squads being "broken" are forgetting that the DRAFT is one of the important parts of this game and that if you use the draft effectively, you will find that the impact of squads is far reduced.


Like me? Haha thanks for the feedback guys. I was more talking about pre made armies, and not knowing what your opponent will have. But I guess that my fault for not saying it.Use official maps. They have small deployment zones. The rules keep armies from getting a huge squad advantage by limiting the deployment zone. In FUTURE tournaments, I will be enforcing this rule to keep the games under 1 hour and to squash any whining about squad superiority.

[Snotwalker 8000]

I think the latest Hero expansion, Raknar, has produced a very nice anti-squad boost to heros... stating the obvious, I know, but after having played the new dragons and giant and Q9, they do negate the "over-power" of the "swarm" quite nicely. And Theracus provides the much-needed quick mobility to other slower moving heros to bring them to the front.

But the key is, as with any unit, one has to play them wisely. I would never send Jotun headlong into a mass of commons in the early game, and only rarely in the mid-game. Most large heros are for end-game superiority. Nothing is more intimidating than fighting the first and second elements of your opponent's army, while a full-life Jotun or Nilf or Krug sits safe n snug in their starting zones, just waiting to be unleashed upon your weakend units in an unknown number of rounds.

Any large hero will die quickly if thrown into the battle in the first few rounds... and since they would be facing full-strength squads, they will almost never kill their points-worth before being mowed down... but that's only if used too early.

Besides, a unit's worth isn't always calculated by how many points they single-handidly kill... their overall impact on synergy with the rest of your army, or how they alter your opponent's battle plan due to their mere presence on the field, or a single unit's success in killing off a key enemy unit, even if lower point value, can well justify their cost.

[MegadeV]

Yesterday, I had Braxas and some friends go up against 6 squads of Minions and Taelord. Braxas killed 2 full Minion squads and Taelord before dropping. That's 400 points killed vs Braxas' cost of 210. Braxas may not always do that well, but I think it averages out well enough to be worth it. Every time I've drafted Jotun he has killed his points worth (or very close to it). Major Q9, Nilfheim, Charos and Taelord are usually worth the points spent.

It seems to me that there is a middle area that doesn't do so well, the 120-160 point range. Although Krug does sometimes break through for a big game, Su-Bak-Na, Sudema, the Deathwalker twins, Mimring, and Grimnak don't seem to fare too well.

[reapersaurus]

Look.

Anyone that overlooks the power of common squads in the current meta-game of HS is simply ignoring the facts, IMO.

It is very simple : squads have almost as much power as heroes (attack numbers), yet get 3 or even 4 attacks per turn. Perfect example is - compare Syvarris to the Krav Maga or 4th Mass.

That is something that is repeatedly overlooked in analysing the effective power of squads and heroes. But that's just the way I see it.

P.S. Nilfheim, Charos, Braxas, Jotun, and Taelord are usually NOT worth the points spent, if they go up against good squads that are played well against them.

[Grungebob]

Look.

Anyone that overlooks the power of common squads in the current meta-game of HS is simply ignoring the facts, IMO.

It is very simple : squads have almost as much power as heroes (attack numbers), yet get 3 or even 4 attacks per turn. Perfect example is - compare Syvarris to the Krav Maga or 4th Mass.

That is something that is repeatedly overlooked in analysing the effective power of squads and heroes. But that's just the way I see it.

P.S. Nilfheim, Charos, Braxas, Jotun, and Taelord are usually NOT worth the points spent, if they go up against good squads that are played well against them.It doesn't appear that people, on the whole, are over-looking the power of squads.

[feekonea]

Look.

Anyone that overlooks the power of common squads in the current meta-game of HS is simply ignoring the facts, IMO.

It is very simple : squads have almost as much power as heroes (attack numbers), yet get 3 or even 4 attacks per turn. Perfect example is - compare Syvarris to the Krav Maga or 4th Mass.

That is something that is repeatedly overlooked in analysing the effective power of squads and heroes. But that's just the way I see it.

P.S. Nilfheim, Charos, Braxas, Jotun, and Taelord are usually NOT worth the points spent, if they go up against good squads that are played well against them.

Reaper- I hate you, but then again I like you. You always agree with me on stuff like this...but Nor cal... :x :D

[MBSowards]

You're also forgetting Jotun's special "End game."

When Jotun takes 3 or more wounds from a crappy squad, feel free to clear the board with a swift flick of your forearm.

Take that squads!

[reapersaurus]

It doesn't appear that people, on the whole, are over-looking the power of squads.Then either the poll is flawed, or people are voting wrong then.

Cause they're effectively voting that heroes are as powerful as squads.

[Aranas]

Use official maps. They have small deployment zones. The rules keep armies from getting a huge squad advantage by limiting the deployment zone. In FUTURE tournaments, I will be enforcing this rule to keep the games under 1 hour and to squash any whining about squad superiority.
We do not have multiples of commons yet so we tend to play Hero-heavy with only one of each squad. That being said, I do think common squads are very powerfull if not limited by the size of the starting area ...and I am disappointed by that. The game is HEROscape not SQUADscape.
Just my :2cents:

[Grungebob]

It doesn't appear that people, on the whole, are over-looking the power of squads.Then either the poll is flawed, or people are voting wrong then.

Cause they're effectively voting that heroes are as powerful as squads.In general they are. Against an overwhelming force of squads then there could be problems, but that has been addressed above. I realize what the poll says, but the posts say something a little different. The problem is not one of perception, but it is the limitations of the questions on this poll.

[reapersaurus]

It doesn't appear that people, on the whole, are over-looking the power of squads.Then either the poll is flawed, or people are voting wrong then.

Cause they're effectively voting that heroes are as powerful as squads.In general they are. Against an overwhelming force of squads then there could be problems, but that has been addressed above. I realize what the poll says, but the posts say something a little different. The problem is not one of perception, but it is the limitations of the questions on this poll.Ya, I wish the poll hadn't been so extreme.

It is a very important discussion point (hero strength in HS vs squad strength in competetive play), but this poll's wording doesn;t properly ask the question.... :(

[Grungebob]

It doesn't appear that people, on the whole, are over-looking the power of squads.Then either the poll is flawed, or people are voting wrong then.

Cause they're effectively voting that heroes are as powerful as squads.In general they are. Against an overwhelming force of squads then there could be problems, but that has been addressed above. I realize what the poll says, but the posts say something a little different. The problem is not one of perception, but it is the limitations of the questions on this poll.Ya, I wish the poll hadn't been so extreme.

It is a very important discussion point (hero strength in HS vs squad strength in competetive play), but this poll's wording doesn;t properly ask the question.... :(I agree with you Reaper that it is a worthy discussion. As I've stated above, It is my belief that if we want to have a competitive style tourney, then deployment zones will need to be limited to 20-24 spaces(probably 22). There needs to ba a standard limit on deployment zone size and if a map does not have enough spaces, the ones added should not bring the total over 20-24(number to be determined in future). Since in tourney play, the draft is not used, this will have to be what we depend upon.

[reapersaurus]

It doesn't appear that people, on the whole, are over-looking the power of squads.Then either the poll is flawed, or people are voting wrong then.

Cause they're effectively voting that heroes are as powerful as squads.In general they are. Against an overwhelming force of squads then there could be problems, but that has been addressed above. I realize what the poll says, but the posts say something a little different. The problem is not one of perception, but it is the limitations of the questions on this poll.Ya, I wish the poll hadn't been so extreme.

It is a very important discussion point (hero strength in HS vs squad strength in competetive play), but this poll's wording doesn;t properly ask the question.... :(I agree with you Reaper that it is a worthy discussion. As I've stated above, It is my belief that if we want to have a competitive style tourney, then deployment zones will need to be limited to 20-24 spaces(probably 22). There needs to ba a standard limit on deployment zone size and if a map does not have enough spaces, the ones added should not bring the total over 20-24(number to be determined in future). Since in tourney play, the draft is not used, this will have to be what we depend upon.Do us all (me especially) a favor this week, please GB :

Have someone keep a record of the armies that were entered in the competetive tournaments.
I've been trying to get a handle on what the most successful (not just the most popular) army configurations are. Currently it seems like 4th Mass is dominant, with orcs behind that, and Romans (usually with the 4th Mass) 3rd.

I'm curious if any GenCon winning armies will not have the 4th Mass, Grut Orcs, Grut Archers, or Roman Legionnaires in them.

[feekonea]

It doesn't appear that people, on the whole, are over-looking the power of squads.Then either the poll is flawed, or people are voting wrong then.

Cause they're effectively voting that heroes are as powerful as squads.In general they are. Against an overwhelming force of squads then there could be problems, but that has been addressed above. I realize what the poll says, but the posts say something a little different. The problem is not one of perception, but it is the limitations of the questions on this poll.Ya, I wish the poll hadn't been so extreme.

It is a very important discussion point (hero strength in HS vs squad strength in competetive play), but this poll's wording doesn;t properly ask the question.... :(I agree with you Reaper that it is a worthy discussion. As I've stated above, It is my belief that if we want to have a competitive style tourney, then deployment zones will need to be limited to 20-24 spaces(probably 22). There needs to ba a standard limit on deployment zone size and if a map does not have enough spaces, the ones added should not bring the total over 20-24(number to be determined in future). Since in tourney play, the draft is not used, this will have to be what we depend upon.Do us all (me especially) a favor this week, please GB :

Have someone keep a record of the armies that were entered in the competetive tournaments.
I've been trying to get a handle on what the most successful (not just the most popular) army configurations are. Currently it seems like 4th Mass is dominant, with orcs behind that, and Romans (usually with the 4th Mass) 3rd.

I'm curious if any GenCon winning armies will not have the 4th Mass, Grut Orcs, Grut Archers, or Roman Legionnaires in them.

sorry about the opoll being so extreme, dont try taking it that way, its just a yes or no question, I just wanted to have a little fun with it. :D

[Grungebob]

Well, that is not a good indicator at all Reaper. Those are good units that will be seen in alot of losing armies as well. The big thing to look for are trends that create unrest in the gamers. In D&D minis there have always been dominant units and armies that are popular for a while but change with new releases. The big changes in D&D minis as a result of consumer complaint is the reductuion in army size recently. This touranment restriction was done to keep players from using numerical advantage to stall games and get an initiative advantage. The initiative advantage is non existent in Heroscape but there are advantages to superior numbers. An endless supply of fodder to ensure that you have a full strength set of 4 attacks each turn is an advantage to be sure.

[Snotwalker 8000]

A huge hero with appropriate squad support will be superior to any Squad-Only army.

- Major Q9 with a screening line of Gladiatrons and Raelin in support will tear apart a swarm army of common squads.

- What Orc army can win any battle without the "Big Guns" of Krug, Chompy, or Mimring to rally behind?

- In a 500pt battle, I'd rather have Tae, 4 MM, and Theracus, than simply 7 units of MM. The superior firepower that Tae/Theracus will provide to the 4 units of 4th mass will make them more mobile and deadly than the opposing 7 units of 4th mass.

- Airborne Elite, Drake, and Marcus will walk all over an all 4th Mass army, with points to spare on support squads for those 3 units.

- How much more deadly and effective are Vipers with the support of the Venoc Warlord? Moving 9 instead of 7 and +5% frenzy addition well justifies his lordship's 120 pt cost.... escpecially when including Abrien Archers.

- And don't forget the healing power of Kelda to rejuvinate your wounded high life heros. Braxas get knocked down 4 or 5 life points? use that awesome move of 6 flying to get back to Kelda's healing touch... recharge and then Re-Charge! (obviously this tactic depends on how "hilly" the terrain is in slowing down enemy foot squads...) But this is a key difference between Squad and Hero... the ability to heal.

Now let me just say that squads rock!! I'm not saying that Heros are better than squads. (as people have pointed out, it's not that black and white). But appropriately matched Hero/Squad armies will consistently do better than Squad-Only armies, considering equal skills/experience of the two players.

An All-Hero army will lose to an All-Squad army... but an All-Squad army will lose to a Hero/Squad mix army. The game was originally created with BOTH heros and squads... FOR A REASON!! We're to use BOTH!

nuf said.

SW8K

[Hahma]

Well, that is not a good indicator at all Reaper. Those are good units that will be seen in alot of losing armies as well. The big thing to look for are trends that create unrest in the gamers. In D&D minis there have always been dominant units and armies that are popular for a while but change with new releases. The big changes in D&D minis as a result of consumer complaint is the reductuion in army size recently. This touranment restriction was done to keep players from using numerical advantage to stall games and get an initiative advantage. The initiative advantage is non existent in Heroscape but there are advantages to superior numbers. An endless supply of fodder to ensure that you have a full strength set of 4 attacks each turn is an advantage to be sure.

All I know is that my 10yr-old nephew (who by the way had a horseshoe up his arse tonight) did some damage with two squads of Aubriens and their stupid frenzy ability. He nailed it like 75% after their first turn and then maybe 25% after their second turn. Multiple turns for those fockers gets them in range of my melee units quickly and then they can rain death seemingly at will. Of course it didn't help that my Venoc Warlard and one Venoc Viper got killed in the first round because my AE were so darn gung-ho about dropping next to an unturned glyph and then stepping on it in hopes of locating an artifact when in reality they stepped on a massive curse. Needless to say, they f'cked me up with their exuberance. Three squads of Venocs minus the Warlord really put a damper on my strategy.

Oh well. we still ended up with a no decision as neither were able to fullfill the entire objectives of the senario. But those freaken frenzian elves can be devestating if things go well for them.

[CornPuff]

I just want to point out one disadvantage with common squads. Whenever one dies, you lose that position on the board, causing reinforcements to stream in.

Hero's have some inherent advantages in that they can take damage without losing position. Defensive commons are a hard nut to crack, but offensive commons have a huge movement problem (can't move all of their power at once, because their strength is in numbers)

This doesn't stop the current mild, IMHO, squad/hero imbalance, but it does give hope for future releases.

[Su-Bak-Na]

Heh I destroy common heavy armies with my hero heavy armies almost all the time, I love all the 100+ heroes, my favorite being Jotun the peice that seems to always win me the game.

[Riggler]

A huge hero with appropriate squad support will be superior to any Squad-Only army.

- Major Q9 with a screening line of Gladiatrons and Raelin in support will tear apart a swarm army of common squads.

- What Orc army can win any battle without the "Big Guns" of Krug, Chompy, or Mimring to rally behind?

- In a 500pt battle, I'd rather have Tae, 4 MM, and Theracus, than simply 7 units of MM. The superior firepower that Tae/Theracus will provide to the 4 units of 4th mass will make them more mobile and deadly than the opposing 7 units of 4th mass.

- Airborne Elite, Drake, and Marcus will walk all over an all 4th Mass army, with points to spare on support squads for those 3 units.

- How much more deadly and effective are Vipers with the support of the Venoc Warlord? Moving 9 instead of 7 and +5% frenzy addition well justifies his lordship's 120 pt cost.... escpecially when including Abrien Archers.

- And don't forget the healing power of Kelda to rejuvinate your wounded high life heros. Braxas get knocked down 4 or 5 life points? use that awesome move of 6 flying to get back to Kelda's healing touch... recharge and then Re-Charge! (obviously this tactic depends on how "hilly" the terrain is in slowing down enemy foot squads...) But this is a key difference between Squad and Hero... the ability to heal.

Now let me just say that squads rock!! I'm not saying that Heros are better than squads. (as people have pointed out, it's not that black and white). But appropriately matched Hero/Squad armies will consistently do better than Squad-Only armies, considering equal skills/experience of the two players.

An All-Hero army will lose to an All-Squad army... but an All-Squad army will lose to a Hero/Squad mix army. The game was originally created with BOTH heros and squads... FOR A REASON!! We're to use BOTH!

nuf said.


Indeed nuff said. I was thinking exactly the same thing as I was reading through this post. But Snotwalker said it almost better than I could.

The group of guys I play with have available numerous commons, but we don't go all common.

Specifically Deathwalker's strategy of Braxas is a perfect example of how to use her with Kelda. I've never lost a game with Braxas in my army. The secret is not to go balls to the wall with Braxas into the fray. Nickle-and-dime your opponent's squads with Braxas and don't be afraid to retreat for healing. NOTE: there is exceptions to this rule.

The last game I played with Braxas I got her quickly into my opponents starting zone which was horded with sqauds. I knew Jotun was going to come up and whack Braxas and she couldn't get away. But the lure of so many squad figures and at least a few turns to do damage (for lack of markers on Jotun) was too much opportunity to give up. She devistated my opponents squads before falling to Jotun. THAT MEANT, that I basically had Jotun to contend with and some less than fully-manned sqauds. Which goes back to what SnotWalker said. Heroes alone -- not so good. High priced heros with the right supporting cast -- priceless.

[Thor]

A lot of GREAT points.
I too was getting ready to state a lot of the valid points Snotwalker brought up, but he got to em before me :P

I have said it all along and will say it again, a lot of heros are for support while squads are the meat of an army, ready to lead the attack. How many squads do you see that grant fellow squads extra moves, attacks, defense, or any other number of various enhancements? Exactly. A lot of the heros' value should NEVER be based on their cost in relation to the amount of points they can kill imo. They will always look crappy on paper if you just do a straight comparrison like that. Their true value lies in their support.

I have yet to ever draft an army without a balance of at least some heros AND common squads. I should also mention I do mighty fine in games. A hero by his or herself is going to get owned going head to head with a 3-4 man squad, thats triple or quadruple the attacks being rolled against them. However, pair a hero WITH a squad and you all the sudden have a much beefier set of commons to use against your opponent, as well as a hero that can finish off whatever is left. Factor in bonding and it's made all the better.

It's not like all heros are strictly support either. A lot of those 100+ point characters have great abilities that can desimate entire squads in a single turn with a little luck. Braxas, Mimring, Q9, Nilf, Jotun, Charos, etc. can all do this if played witch a little tact and not sent charging into a mosh pit of 20 commons.

The key is versatility. If you are going into a game where you don't know what to expect from an opponent draft one or two great squad killers along with some support heros and squads. Chances are it will be a lot more flexible then an all common army. Facing an all common squad when doing a draft is even better. A 500 point army of all Grut Orcs? Fantastic, let them come wave after wave and be met with some acid/fire/ice shard breath. Or maybe mow em down with a round from the queglix gun or some rapid fire. Five squads of Minute Men firing away at you? No problem when the bullets can't touch the Krav Maga Agents and their +2 defense from Raelin's Aura. Or maybe see how they like tasting some cold steel from Sgt. Drake's blade. I think there CAN be a problem with mass commons if you let there be, but if you chose your army wisely it is no tougher then a mixed army of heros and commons. Heck, if anything an all common squad army is at a disadvantage.

[feekonea]

Ok everyone, thanks for clearing that up, Now I relize that Heros are just there to lead the battle, maybe you just draft some of the heros for bonding or support, or you could draft them for their power, while you squads protect them.

[Teatherman]

Why not just limit common squads to 3 max? Or I would even go so far as limiting common squads to 2 max, with the exception of the Marro Drones at 3 max(since it would infringe on their special ability).

I dont see how this would be a problem when everyone is playing by the same rules.

*note*

directed at G-Bob about tourneys

[Snotwalker 8000]

Actually, regarding the Drones, if there were ever such a Squad Limit as you proposed, the Drones would need to be able to field at least 4 squads to maximize their special ability... Otherwise, you'd have no "buffer" to account for early game losses... if you only start with 9 drones, as soon as you lose 1, you've immediately weakend their special swarm power....

[Grungebob]

Why not just limit common squads to 3 max? Or I would even go so far as limiting common squads to 2 max, with the exception of the Marro Drones at 3 max(since it would infringe on their special ability).

I dont see how this would be a problem when everyone is playing by the same rules.

*note*

directed at G-Bob about tourneysI don't like the thought of limiting commons in this manner. You should be able to take 4 squads of drones if you want.

[Xargon]

The easiest wat to solve the problem is not to play glyphs except the glyph of healing. Sqauds benefit more from glyphs than heros.

Place 3 or 4 healing glyphs on the map and your heros suddenly have the advantage again

[HyperactiveSloth]

Hey guys, this thread (among others) inspired me to make a new anti-squad type custom. How well do you think something like this would work?

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=1422&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

[feekonea]

Its pretty good, and I think the point cost is perfect.

[philowar]

I think heroes still rule. We aren't playing Commonscape.

I love heroes but we are in fact now playing Common/Squadscape. Heroes are nearly worthless, except maybe those with bonding or those who have multiple attacks per turn. The Heroscape designers have ensured are the rest are nearly useless.

[philowar]

We do not have multiples of commons yet so we tend to play Hero-heavy with only one of each squad. That being said, I do think common squads are very powerfull if not limited by the size of the starting area ...and I am disappointed by that. The game is HEROscape not SQUADscape.
Just my :2cents:

My feelings exactly. Common squads dominate. It sucks. Heroes are nigh worthless.

[Jason]

Heroes aren't worthless, Many can attack multiple units in a round and many are also great at boosting squads

[philowar]

Why not just limit common squads to 3 max? Or I would even go so far as limiting common squads to 2 max, with the exception of the Marro Drones at 3 max(since it would infringe on their special ability).


Funny you should say that. Sick of playing Squadscape, my gf and I have recently imposed a 2 common squad max on our armies. They game is much more interesting, balanced, and more fun that way.

[aielman]

lol my group found an easy way to enforce that rule...



None of us have more then 2 commons, problem solved :-D


(if someone wants the drones they just get a few proxies)

[Tiberius]

Well we played a 400 point game last night, I had Major Q9 and Braxas against some squads like the agents and Omicron snipers. I never thought much of braxas before but talk about crowd control. Two turns into the fight, most the figures were destroyed from the acid breath. I didnt even have to bring the major into it. So I dont think squads are all powerful if you have the right counters.

[Snotwalker 8000]

Well we played a 400 point game last night, I had Major Q9 and Braxas against some squads like the agents and Omicron snipers. I never thought much of braxas before but talk about crowd control. Two turns into the fight, most the figures were destroyed from the acid breath. I didnt even have to bring the major into it. So I dont think squads are all powerful if you have the right counters.

Well said. The right unit for the right job.

Plus, those Standard Bearers should give another nice boost to the Heros in this game too!!! dual-hero bonding! Love it!

[Riggler]

Well we played a 400 point game last night, I had Major Q9 and Braxas against some squads like the agents and Omicron snipers. I never thought much of braxas before but talk about crowd control. Two turns into the fight, most the figures were destroyed from the acid breath. I didnt even have to bring the major into it. So I dont think squads are all powerful if you have the right counters.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Tiberius you are the winner!!! B-R-A-X-A-S!!!

I'd love to play some of these "dum-de-dum, woe-as-me, we're playing CommonScape the designers have ruined hero" types.

Let's forget for the moment that one of the balancing factors on OFFICIAL maps is the number of starting locations allowed!!!. Any custom map that doesn't take this into consideration favors commons. I'm thinking of coming up with a formula so that the number of official starting locations can be calculted for any map.

Braxas is THE common horde killer. You've just got to know how to play her. I've never lost a game with her. Not saying she lived through the whole games, but she's worth every point I pay for her in building an army. You almost have to know she's coming and choose an army to counter her.

If anyone rules Heroscape these days its that fine black dragon queen.

[happyjosiah]

At the pittsburgh tourney, we played a 2 vs. 2 game in which Braxas killed 700 points worth of guys before finally dying. 3 snipers, 3 kravs, Agent Carr, and many more. All with the poison breath.

[Eclipse]

If you play Braxas smart and get a lot of luck, she can be an absolute terror. Easily the craziest round I've ever had with her involved me and my buddy chosing to trade strategies. He'd never run with lots of commons before, so I decided to take 4 Heroes (Q9, Braxas, Jotun, Guilty) against his common horde. My fiance threw a wrench into things by deciding to turn the game into a 3 player free for all. Q9 and Jotun failed me miserably. Jotun kept rolling 2 skulls until Denrick came and finished him off. Q9 missed every single shot of 5-6 uses of his Quelix gun before falling to Denrick and his horde of Knights.

Braxas, however, made it all better. Before falling to Carr's Sword of Reckoning, Braxas went on a mad spree, killing 3 Tarn Vikings (Jotun got the 4th early on) all 4 knights AND Denrick. She then went on to kill all 3 of my friends Microcorp agents and 6 or 7 of his Anubian Wolves. In an absolutely amazing round, I rolled a 17 and a 20, killing Finn and Concan in one round. Carr nearly went down as well, but he got a lucky roll of All Skulls to bring Braxas down.

Guilty nearly won that game for me. My last unit, he was ignored until my friend finished off my fiance's last unit (Krug, both Concan and Finn were hers too). All that was left was Guilty against 9 Marro Drones. I managed to get the high ground and started picking them off. I probably would have taken down all 9, but I miscalulated a bit. I didn't see Guilty was only 4 tall, and got backed against a wall I thought I could climb thinking he was 5 tall. Backed into the corner, he took out a few more Drones before the Swarm kicked in and he was overrun. Awesome game though.

[philowar]

I'd love to play some of these "dum-de-dum, woe-as-me, we're playing CommonScape the designers have ruined hero" types.

Braxas is THE common horde killer.

Like I said, you stand a chance against squad swarms IF you pick a certain figure, like Braxas. Well. what if I don't want to pick a bloody dragon because I'm just not into them? What if I want to have my 380 point gladiator army take on the enemy? Then great luck be with me, in that case, because that's what I'm going to need to win.

[Jason]

"What if I want to have my 380 point gladiator army take on the enemy? Then great luck be with me, in that case, because that's what I'm going to need to win"

The game would involve barely any strategy if every piece was good against every type of army build. That's like saying in Rock, Scissors, Paper "yea rock beat scissors but what if I don't want to pick rock"

[philowar]

"What if I want to have my 380 point gladiator army take on the enemy? Then great luck be with me, in that case, because that's what I'm going to need to win"

The game would involve barely any strategy if every piece was good against every type of army build. That's like saying in Rock, Scissors, Paper "yea rock beat scissors but what if I don't want to pick rock"

A valid point, though it sucks for me because there are only certain figures or squads I really like to play with. The rest don't appeal to me.

[reapersaurus]

I'd love to play some of these "dum-de-dum, woe-as-me, we're playing CommonScape the designers have ruined hero" types.

If anyone rules Heroscape these days its that fine black dragon queen.I would LOVE to see my opponent bring Braxas onto the field if I was playing a cheap-cost common army against her.
You guys are daft if you think Braxas rules against commons, or else you're playing VERY limited competetion.

Braxas is only viable against high-cost squad figures. Any squad that is 30 points or more per figure is a solid target for her.

Any squad that's cheaper than that, and her point-cost-killed-per-activation (PPA) goes down, and the risk of her getting whittle down by multiple attacks goes up.

Here's who she sucks against:
Any Large figure, especially Large squads (esp. Marrden Hounds)
Anubian Wolves
Orcs
Marro Drones
4th Mass
Vipers

many more, including those ranged units you guys mentioned (Krav Maga, Microcorps Agents, etc)
It is HARD to take out 210 points worth of squads before she goes down, unless you're cashing in on plump costly squad figures and not taking much damage per turn.

Braxas is no answer to the common squad problem that has just gotten sickening with the Gladiatron/Blasatron combo, much less the Deathreavers.

[Riggler]

I'd love to play some of these "dum-de-dum, woe-as-me, we're playing CommonScape the designers have ruined hero" types.

If anyone rules Heroscape these days its that fine black dragon queen.I would LOVE to see my opponent bring Braxas onto the field if I was playing a cheap-cost common army against her.
You guys are daft if you think Braxas rules against commons, or else you're playing VERY limited competetion.

Braxas is only viable against high-cost squad figures. Any squad that is 30 points or more per figure is a solid target for her.

Any squad that's cheaper than that, and her point-cost-killed-per-activation (PPA) goes down, and the risk of her getting whittle down by multiple attacks goes up.

Here's who she sucks against:
Any Large figure, especially Large squads (esp. Marrden Hounds)
Anubian Wolves
Orcs
Marro Drones
4th Mass
Vipers

many more, including those ranged units you guys mentioned (Krav Maga, Microcorps Agents, etc)
It is HARD to take out 210 points worth of squads before she goes down, unless you're cashing in on plump costly squad figures and not taking much damage per turn.

Braxas is no answer to the common squad problem that has just gotten sickening with the Gladiatron/Blasatron combo, much less the Deathreavers.

Reaper, I agree with most of your posts, conclusions and analysis of the game I've seen on here, but I must disagree in part with what you posted above.

Its now grown into an official pet peeve of mine for anyone to compare a card/unit's worthiness soley on whether they can take out the same amount of points by themselves. How often does Rae-Rae take out 80 points worth her units. My bet is sometimes she does, but when she does, she's probably not being played right.

Now back to Braxas. She is tough in her own right, but her ability to shine is not hers alone. I always pair her with Rae-Rae or Kelda. Her defense we all know can use a boost. And her life is large enough that she can survive to get healed if Kelda is nearby.

Full disclosure: I've never played Braxas against a full on common squad swarm like you mentioned above. Having said that, she's been so powerful in the games I have played that I really don't think she can't be unbeated with the meagerist of supporting cast (I'm not talking about a whole army worth, just one of the two heros i mentioned above and another wisely chosen squad).

If I was playing a common swarm and playing a must win game (I've laid off of Braxas as of late, b/c I haven't lost with her and wanted to try different things), I would choose Braxas, either Rae-Rae or Kelda, Shotgun and/or Murphy would be there too.

Speaking of wolves, Reaper, after losing a game against a wolf swarm with Khos backing them up last night... I've a new found respect for Khos. He probably cost me the game, not by his direct action, but by never even moving.

[aielman]

Reaper... All you said was Braxus has weak points. Which is a good thing. All of the units have weak points and thats one of the things that makes the game fun. If there were some uber character with absolutely no weak points the game would lose alot of the appeal for me. I like it because of the fact that theres no unit in the game that doesn't have something else that will rip it to shreds.

To me the game above is what shows the strength of the mighty Braxus, in the right situation she can dominate the game, thus her cost. As for how well she fares against hoard units like the 4th Mass, she should actually be able to hold her own depending on the group (she will suck versus some of the really cheap ones I agree). Just make sure you rush some reavers or thorgrim in first and you should be fine. A smart Braxus player will realize that 4th Mass are terribly slow movers and find some height to rain the plague down on the 4th Mass. Nothing says you have to try and rush them.

[Battlechimp]

A lot of great points and counter points flying here. I think we have to remember that Heroscape is great beacuse it is intuitive and fast moving.

We also need to account for the fact that a portion of the 100+ Hero's are support characters in nature and those that are not, are close combat oriented.

With 20+ years of wargaming under my belt- my stance is:

1) Play smart- Jotun is not going to walk across an open field and take 4 rounds of mass fire. The more rolls you are required to take the more likely you are to lose.

2)Don't walk into a trap- take your opponent out of his/her game. If he is sitting on high ground and waiting for you to walk in and take a faceful of lead- DON'T- Sit back outside of range and move all of your forces into support range of your lead hero.
a) if you do the above your opponent will have to either move to engage thus removing his defensive advantage or once you are in position you can "Rush" his defensive position en mass -limiting the effectiveness of his mass fire.

3) One thing I think the designers missed was that they gave an advantage to ranged units with height, but they failed to balance that with a disadvantage. I would like to see units with a range of more than one give up a defense die when engaged in close combat.

4) Now I know in the beginning I said the game should be kept fast and intuitive- but another item I believe needs to be addressed is the facing issue. Ranged units should not be able to have a 360 degree facing. I would limit it to 180. this would accomplish two thigs:
a) allow more tactical movement by introducing flanking as a viable strategy.

b) it would also limit the ability of ranged units to dominate the game from the high ground.

5) I know I have been talking mostly about massed range units and the reason for this is I believe that for the most part the designers expect and design for the "Heroes" to engage in mass melee combat and base their special abilities on that basis.
a)The same thing about facing ranged units applies to facing mass close combat units --PLAY SMART
1a) Don't play into your opponents game- If he sends in his 100+ hero do not engage him with an entire unit- string him out so that he can only get to 1 member of a unit at a time. While he is chasing down your single squad members light his butt up!
2b) Position yourself for a counter attack. Bring your Izumi Samurai up take it to him on your terms. Attack him don't let him attack you.
3c) If your hero is surrounded by two groups of gruts let your hero handle them. You should be looking to take out tarnak or any other support chracter that is pumping them up. Remember the support hero's are you usually not very hard to take out and once they are gone the units they are supporting will disappear shortly thereafter.

[Roufus]

(regarding battlechimp)

FINALLY
thats the kind of thing I want to see on these forums. Detailed tactical analysis.
Lets get some wargaming going on people!

[Hendal]

I agree with Snotwalker, nice writting!
It is best to use both, that is why they bond together to use both at the same time.

I don't think there should be a limit on starting space at a tourneyment, if I can pick 10 units of vipers for 400 pts and field an army of 30 snakes I think that should be fair, I personally would pick mittens with them, but I want that option. We play on some official boards, but always make the starting zone bigger if needed. Or 4 squads of hounds is 360 pts. and 24 spaces add vipers for 3 more spaces, or orcs for 4 spaces.


What this whole thing makes me what to know is what is the

Best all hero Army?

Best all squad army?

Or at least in your opionion

WOW, tough call - these are without thinking to much about it

say for a 400 pt. army

ALL Hero- Q-9, raelin, kelda, DED ( I never use kelda, weird I would choose her )
Q-9,syvarris,raelin, griffon

All Squad- 1) 30 vipers if no space limitation ( cause it is so fun )
2) 5 elf archers & the new female elf fighters
3) Krav, marro, tarn, 2xmicro

[Jason]

-I don't think Braxas is bad against the wolves. Her acid breathe bypasses their 4 defense and with flying + a range of 4 she should almost always be able to engage them 1st. It'd all come down to whether the wolves can roll a 16 or higher before Braxas gets a few turns.

-Braxas is interesting against the 4th Mass too. They should almost never get both height + wait and fire against her. With 8 life, a 3 defene figure should last a bit against a 3 attack squad. If you add in the fact that many 4th Mass armies include Marcus that dramatically adds to the amount of damage Braxas can do in 1 round

[Aranas]

To make things even worst on this subject (HeroScape Vs SquadScape) we now have Squads that bonds with Squads:

Nakita Agents
Gorilla movement Bonding: May move 3 gorillinators you control up to 7 each.

Blastatrons
Galadiatron Movement Bonding: May move 4 gladiatrons you control up to 5 spaces.

:headshake:

[Snotwalker 8000]

Let me just say this again for those who are concerned about "Squadscape"... I'll take a synergistic Hero/Squad mix army over a Squad-only army anyday!

Try winning with an all-orc squad army, with no heros (Grimmy/Mim/etc)

Try winning wth an all Marro Drone army without the Marro Heros...

Try winning with an all squad army of Vipers and archers without the benefit of Mittens +2 move/Frency enhance....

Try winning with an all 4th Mass army against someone with a balance of 4th Mass/Marcus/Tae... you'll get slaughtered....

etc etc etc....

Squads can be powerful, yes... but squads supported/enhanced by their respective Heros and "Big Guns" are far deadlier. You need BOTH to win the game.

SW8K

[RichardD]

Try winning with an all squad army of Vipers and archers without the benefit of Mittens +2 move/Frency enhance....


My opponent earlier this week tried just that. Well, she originally drafted Mittens (along with the EOVs, venocs, armocs and elves), but I sent Sudema after him round after round. Once he'd gone, her army was a whole lot less scary.

Which my Gorillas mopped up nicely.

[Aranas]

Let me just say this again for those who are concerned about "Squadscape"... I'll take a synergistic Hero/Squad mix army over a Squad-only army anyday!

Try winning with an all-orc squad army, with no heros (Grimmy/Mim/etc)

Try winning wth an all Marro Drone army without the Marro Heros...

Try winning with an all squad army of Vipers and archers without the benefit of Mittens +2 move/Frency enhance....

Try winning with an all 4th Mass army against someone with a balance of 4th Mass/Marcus/Tae... you'll get slaughtered....

etc etc etc....

Squads can be powerful, yes... but squads supported/enhanced by their respective Heros and "Big Guns" are far deadlier. You need BOTH to win the game.

SW8K
I completely agree with you (and was not even considering Pure squads-only armies). But still, I am a little bit disapointed by the balance wich seems to favors squads. A limit of two common squads per army would have been a nice limit? More unique squads? :shrug:

To many unrelated Heros (no bonding, etc.) are loosing their appeal after each new release. You can build many effective armies with plenty of squads and a few Heros, but few good armies in the reverse order.

But, you do not have to listen to my complaints... I love this game! :wink:

[Snotwalker 8000]

Let me just say this again for those who are concerned about "Squadscape"... I'll take a synergistic Hero/Squad mix army over a Squad-only army anyday!

Try winning with an all-orc squad army, with no heros (Grimmy/Mim/etc)

Try winning wth an all Marro Drone army without the Marro Heros...

Try winning with an all squad army of Vipers and archers without the benefit of Mittens +2 move/Frency enhance....

Try winning with an all 4th Mass army against someone with a balance of 4th Mass/Marcus/Tae... you'll get slaughtered....

etc etc etc....

Squads can be powerful, yes... but squads supported/enhanced by their respective Heros and "Big Guns" are far deadlier. You need BOTH to win the game.

SW8K
I completely agree with you (and was not even considering Pure squads-only armies). But still, I am a little bit disapointed by the balance wich seems to favors squads. A limit of two common squads per army would have been a nice limit? More unique squads? :shrug:

To many unrelated Heros (no bonding, etc.) are loosing their appeal after each new release. You can build many effective armies with plenty of squads and a few Heros, but few good armies in the reverse order.

But, you do not have to listen to my complaints... I love this game! :wink:

I agree to an extent... but I am curious as to which heros you feel are loosing appeal due to new expansions? For me, I find that I draft older heros a little less frequently for a time after obtaining some new expansions simply because I'm dying to take the new units "out for a spin"... but once I get my fill of trying out the new guys, I usually go back to a nice balance of "equal play time" for most of the older/original heros.

For example, 4 of us guys went on an extended camping/retreat weekend last weekend and over the course of several days, every hero from the MS set was drafted and used at least once.... Thor, Finn, Drake, Carr, Rae, NGS, Syv, 9K, Grimmy, Mim.... AND, aside from Dund, every other expansion hero was also given good play time!.... Well, except for the ZD expansion heros (not including cowboys), Sudema and Parmenio were played, but not the others.

So in short, aside from Dund, Morsbane, X17, and Valguard, EVERY HERO in the game was played and used at least once... I didnt' see any decline in value of any of the heros in our games. They ALL have their uses, strengths, and weaknesses depending on the terrain and opponents.... No hero played last weekend was a wasted draft. And this was in the face of us having mulitple (3+) common squads available for all expansions.

I can still honestly say that I'd be willing to go up against any expansion-only army with a MS set only army I could build. The originals are still strong and kicking....

[Aranas]

Well... I'm cornered. It's not that bad after all. To your list I would add Carr and Concan though. And the Zettian, and Tarn if you accept Unique squads.

I need to make some precision to explain my previous posts. I am more against CommomSquadScape then against Squads in general. There is no Unique Squads I do not like to play with or go against.

..and it is also in line with what philowar wrote:

I'd love to play some of these "dum-de-dum, woe-as-me, we're playing CommonScape the designers have ruined hero" types.

Braxas is THE common horde killer.

Like I said, you stand a chance against squad swarms IF you pick a certain figure, like Braxas. Well. what if I don't want to pick a bloody dragon because I'm just not into them? What if I want to have my 380 point gladiator army take on the enemy? Then great luck be with me, in that case, because that's what I'm going to need to win.
I do not like the fact that you are FORCED to select squad killers if you face a swarm army. But, heh, that's just me!

[Snotwalker 8000]

Well... I'm cornered. It's not that bad after all. To your list I would add Carr and Concan though. And the Zettian, and Tarn if you accept Unique squads.

I need to make some precision to explain my previous posts. I am more against CommomSquadScape then against Squads in general. There is no Unique Squads I do not like to play with or go against.

..and it is also in line with what philowar wrote:

I'd love to play some of these "dum-de-dum, woe-as-me, we're playing CommonScape the designers have ruined hero" types.

Braxas is THE common horde killer.

Like I said, you stand a chance against squad swarms IF you pick a certain figure, like Braxas. Well. what if I don't want to pick a bloody dragon because I'm just not into them? What if I want to have my 380 point gladiator army take on the enemy? Then great luck be with me, in that case, because that's what I'm going to need to win.
I do not like the fact that you are FORCED to select squad killers if you face a swarm army. But, heh, that's just me!

I hear ya, but I guess I just don't see counter-drafting against either a particular squad OR hero as "being forced" in any way. (for example, would an opponent feel "forced" into drafting ranged units in order to have a snowball's chance in heck against your gladiator army?... ;)) I simply see it as wise drafting based on terrain, victory objective, and opponent's army makeup. If my opponent just drafted Q9, I can guarantee that I won't want to draft the Vipers anymore... If my opponent just drafted KMA, I might be more tempted to pick up Drake or Sents or EOV... If my opponent drafts 4th Mass, I will now probably consider grabbing a squad of deathreavers, or snipers, or DW8K.... but in none of the above situations do I feel FORCED. and there's always more than one way to "skin a cat" when counterdrafting. :D Braxas is certainly not the ONLY unit that's good at fighting swarms. (DW8K, DW9K, Syv, Hounds, Samurai, Grimmy, Nilf, Q9, AE, Glad/Blast combo, etc etc etc...)

The beauty of the game is the wonderful variety, creative combos, inherent strengths/weaknesses, counters, synergy, etc... and if there's an occassional game where I feel more compelled to draft a certain unit than I otherwise would have based on my opponent's draft... well, that's fine by me, because all the units are pretty fun to play now and then. It's all good. :)

But like I said, I do understand your point too. I just see drafting / counterdrafting as part of the fun of the game. And I say go ahead and try out your gladiator army against a swarm and see how they do... you might be surprised... and if they do turn out to get "swarmped" (new HS term I propose for common circulation ;) ), oh well... it was probably at least fun to try.... they could then probably be improved upon by adding in a supporting unit or two depending on what weaknesses you observe.... build a 500 point glad army, with supporting characters making up the remaining 120 pts... the 3 glads can be the cornerstone to build on)

SW8K

[Eclipse]

You know, I really don't find Common Squads to be the problem. I think the real problem is how dominate range is in this game. I rarely find massive swarms of Knights of Weston, MacDirks, or even Marro Drones to be gamebreaking, but a single squad of KMA, 4th Mass, or Microcorp Agents can rule the game all by themselves.

Since ranged units have similar move stats as melee units, plus ranges that are often even greater than that, there's no real way for a melee unit to compete with range. Simply move back, fire, move back, fire, etc until they win. There are a few units that can counter range (Drake, EOV, anything with greater range) but for the most part, these units are forced to go unsupported into the enemy lines, where they can easy be killed before they do their job.

I think that's the main reason that Heroes feel underpowed. Most are melee units. They simply can't get into a position where they can accomplish anything, and more often than not, they can be easily targeted and destroyed from range without ever accomplishing anything. It's not like you can force a ranged unit to come to you.

I'm not completely sure what can be done to fix this. Good map designs can greatly help. Including lots of cover can reduce the power of range, but at the same time, totally blocking LOS is often quite difficult. I do find Lava Fields good for reducing the power of squads. A long, winding volcano path can make it simply too risky to cross with 1 life characters. I do really think the range is the problem though, not the Squads.

[philowar]

I completely agree with you (and was not even considering Pure squads-only armies). But still, I am a little bit disapointed by the balance wich seems to favors squads. A limit of two common squads per army would have been a nice limit? More unique squads? :shrug:

Because if there was an official two common squad limit per army rule then Hasbro wouldn't be making as much money. Same with uniques. A great deal of Hasbro's Heroscape profit comes from people buying multiple packs of commons. I feel that originally the game was supposed to center around heroes and unique squads, but the designers were pressured into incorporating units that would be bought multiple times and in great numbers, thereby increasing Hasbro's profits. Just think about how much less money all of us would have personally spent if there was no such thing as common squads. Hell, I know my Heroscape bill for this year would have easily been cut in half.

But yes, the two common squad limit is how we play around here most of the time, with the exception of big Roman armies or making allowances for the ALREADY SUCKY MARRO DRONES who really need a 3rd squad to even stand a chance.


To many unrelated Heros (no bonding, etc.) are loosing their appeal after each new release. You can build many effective armies with plenty of squads and a few Heros, but few good armies in the reverse order.


My feelings exactly. The 100-point or thereabouts heroes that rarely get picked around here are the same ones that don't have bonding, ie: Concan, Khosumet, gladiators, Marro Warlords (unless I want to play the stupid "they're bonding with my Romans!" theme), etc.

And why can't Me-Burq-Sa and Ne-Gok-Sa bond with the Marro Drones? Brilliant game design. They can bond with Roman Legionaires but not with soldiers of their own freakin race.

And why the hell doesn't Valguard have his own vikings to bond with yet? No, I don't want to use him with the Romans either.


But, you do not have to listen to my complaints... I love this game! :wink:

Yeah, I love it too, but it's not without its ridiculous flaws. The problem has been remedied easy enough around here however, what with house rules (Valguard bonding with Tarns, Marro Warlords with Marro drones, Concan with Taelord's phony bonding but with the Sentinels, etc) and the creation of some squad-killing heroes (especially giants) that finally make the inclusion of a couple of heroes in an army critical to win. But still, I'd really like to see some official work on the current problems. Three or four more squad killers ala Q9, Braxas, and Jotun would be a nice start. So would some unique or common squads to bond with existing heroes without bonding (or for ones with just plain senseless bonding like Valguard and the Marro Warlords).

[Jormi_Boced]

I think a mix is definitely the best way to go. I think that in general though, an army of all squads would beat an army of all heroes.

[Thor]

To make things even worst on this subject (HeroScape Vs SquadScape) we now have Squads that bonds with Squads:

Nakita Agents
Gorilla movement Bonding: May move 3 gorillinators you control up to 7 each.

Blastatrons
Galadiatron Movement Bonding: May move 4 gladiatrons you control up to 5 spaces.

:headshake:
The Nakita Agents bonding with the Gorillinators isn't really bad at all. The Nakita's are a unique squad and the Gorillinators are a unit that is considered over priced by many. Plus I don't think the Gorillinators really lend themselves well to being played en mass like other squads. The Gorillinatorsd are too expensive point wise and have a glaring weakness with only 1 defense against all special attacks.

Also something I want to mention is I like how the the game sort of keeps things realistic in terms of hero vs squad combat. Ya there might be giants, dragons, orcs, and a host of other creatures, but combat still feels like it could be real. What I mean is figures like Sgt. Drake are powerful enough to take down a squad, maybe 2 depending on what they are, but that's about it unless you get really lucky. In real life it would be the same. You wouldn't have a single man taking out dozens upon dozens of enemy soldiers, he would take a couple out before falling. On the other hand you have the bigger dragons and robots and such that can take out more enemies, but still not win a game on their own. They are heros but not Gods. Another thing I like is how a lot of heros inspire their troops. Some arn't that great at combat, but they enhance their troops in some way to make the troops better.

[Roufus]

I'm just holding out till they release the 10,000 point 'guy from Doom' that can take on entire legions of hell single handedly.

That BFG special attack would light them up!

:P

[DemoDougie]

I just think that all these people complaining about squads being "broken" are forgetting that the DRAFT is one of the important parts of this game and that if you use the draft effectively, you will find that the impact of squads is far reduced.


Exactly, Grungebob. :word:

With the limited crew that I play with, we have only done draft games and haven't tried the pre-made armies. So like you said, one can counter someone's plan by drafting accordingly. What's a 4th Mass army going to do against Kravs, Drake, Deadeye Dan and Sylvarris?

Nice point! :headbang:

[reapersaurus]

actually, it's not a very good point, since the 4th mass chew up each of those heroes and squads you mentioned.

The Krav can't compete with 4 ranged attacks agiainst them, since they whiff on their defense dice OFTEN, and it only takes one skull to get them. When one falls, that's 33+ points and the squad is decreased in power SIGNFICANTLY.

Drake can get up to them, but then what's he going to do? Take out ONE fig.
Then he'll have 4 attacks against him, and he will go down within a few turns, at best taking out 3 or 4 figures (which is a net loss for his side).

Deadeye Dan and Syvarris go down in 1 or 2 turns, with their whopping defense of 2. :lol:

I find it instructive that a 370 point army (6 figures), specifically drafted as an example of going up against the 4th Mass, each probably would not take out their points' worth of 4th Mass (20+ figures). :headshake:

[Jormi_Boced]

actually, it's not a very good point, since the 4th mass chew up each of those heroes and squads you mentioned.

The Krav can't compete with 4 ranged attacks agiainst them, since they whiff on their defense dice OFTEN, and it only takes one skull to get them. When one falls, that's 33+ points and the squad is decreased in power SIGNFICANTLY.

Drake can get up to them, but then what's he going to do? Take out ONE fig.
Then he'll have 4 attacks against him, and he will go down within a few turns, at best taking out 3 or 4 figures (which is a net loss for his side).

Deadeye Dan and Syvarris go down in 1 or 2 turns, with their whopping defense of 2. :lol:

I find it instructive that a 370 point army (6 figures), specifically drafted as an example of going up against the 4th Mass, each probably would not take out their points' worth of 4th Mass (20+ figures). :headshake:

I think you need to play better with the Krav, they are great at taking out 4th mass.

[reapersaurus]

I think you need to play better with the Krav, they are great at taking out 4th mass."play better" ? :rofl:
What does that mean?
Like - make my dice or the opponent's do other-than-average rolls? :D
Or maybe I should pull a Jason and assume my Krav will get optimal positioning and always be shooting one space further than the 4th mass and will be able to stay away from that whole army. :?:

The Krav are twice as expensive as the 4th Mass (per figure) - meaning they have to take out 6 4th Mass before they have gotten any point advantage.

If even one Krav is taken out, they only get 2 attacks, whereas the 4th Mass will always get 4 attacks if they're close enough & you aren't on your last squad.
It's just too easy to take one Krav out and then its all over but the mop-up.
And heaven forbid the 4th Mass get adjacent to the Krav.....