The TNT Trial of Chameleon (Hi1hi1hi1hi1)

[GreyOwl]

Well, it was hinted that others could start peer reviews and since we're on a roll as far as keeping things alive in this section, here goes... :P

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc164/hi1hi1hi1hi1/Marvel%20Creations/Spider-Man%20Related/Chameleon.jpg

Overall Cosmetics: Something looks odd about the purple fog. Where it hits his right arm, it sort of looks like it abruptly stops. When I look closer I can tell it doesn't, but I have to look really close. I think the purple is blending too much with Chameleon's black outfit. Maybe a lighter color fog would help?

Left Box: Makes sense to me. "Spy" and "Tricky" seem perfect for Chameleon.

Flavor: Deceitful and tricky....I like it. :) Captures the flavor of the Chameleon. Several bios I read of him all mention that he's "stealthy". Given that, the only improvement I can think of is to give him Disengage. Or perhaps even Phantom Walk - implying that he uses his impersonation skills to get by anyone without being noticed. Kind of going along with the "flavor" are my comments below regarding his Special Abilities, too.

Special Abilities/Attacks: Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but here's how I read it. Before moving, I place the Imitation Marker on a figure. Anybody friendly to that figure cannot attack Chameleon now. At the start of my next turn, I take the marker back. But I can immediately put it back "before moving", right? If that's the case, it seems like in a 2 player game, Chameleon could never be attacked if he keeps this up. The only exception would be if the figure with the marker gets destroyed, and Chameleon can be attacked until the start of his next turn. Well, and I guess he could be attacked by the figure with the marker on it, too. Still, that seems to have the potential to be quite powerful. Powerful in the sense that it could be very difficult to kill Chameleon, but by him staying alive I'm not sure what damage he could really cause.

Which brings me to the second thing...why go through the effort of trying to keep Chameleon from being killed? He can't really dish out a lot of damage, especially against other superheroes and he offers no bonus or advantage to others on his team.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of him being an impostor but I think it should be for an eventual purpose. He impersonates to allow friends to pass by unharmed, or gains an advantage against the enemy, or cripples the enemy in some way...you know, "spy stuff". 8)

Stats: Seem about right. The only change I could think of would be to lower his Life by 1, since he's not any different from an unpowered human. But I would also see no problem leaving it as is.

Point Value: Hard to say at this point, since I'm not completely clear how his special is supposed to work. If it works as I described, then I would guess the cost is pretty close to where it should be.

[GreyOwl]

Oh, one more small cosmetic thing...the text "POINTS" should probably be white. It's a little hard to read with the black on dark-green.

[allskulls]

I love the flavor of this card. GreyOwl makes a good point though in that he is not much of a threat. Maybe an order marker peeking ability would add to his usefulness. Or he could convince an enemy figure to attack the imitated figure.

"Before an opponent takes a turn with a figure friendly to the imitated figure, if that figure has clear sight to the imitated figure and Chameleon, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, the figure taking the turn must attack the imitated figure this turn."

Wording could be helped some.

One other thing that I think I mentioned before is his ability to imitate other species is a bit much. He only impersonates humans in the comics.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Let's see, I have to be at a track meet at 9 that lasts the entire day, but I'll answer as many of your questions as I can. One thing should be noted that I lost all my previous custom files and will have to re-create Chameleon from scratch, it's not really a big deal, but it may delay changes.

Overall Cosmetics: Something looks odd about the purple fog. Where it hits his right arm, it sort of looks like it abruptly stops. When I look closer I can tell it doesn't, but I have to look really close. I think the purple is blending too much with Chameleon's black outfit. Maybe a lighter color fog would help? Oh it took me a while to realize where you were reffering to, thats no problem at all to fix. I think it might look better with a slightly lighter fog, maybe one that matches the lighter purple in the background.

---

Ok now on to the more important things: the power level of Chameleon. I recently (yesturday) ran a playtest with Chameleon, against some other customs. Your thoughts were correct, he basically did nothing. At the start of his turn he would choose a Hero, but by the time he had moved and was ready to attack, it would be more advantageous to attack a diffferent hero, negating the effects of his disguise. He was killed quickly in two turns of real attetion without doing much of anything. Keep in mind the test had no benefits, such as bonding or another ability to gain by "becoming" another figure. With that out of the way, he was just weak, and since that situation will not come up too often, I should either drop the cost or up the usefulness.

Going along with the suggestion from allskulls, about Chamealeon convincing another figure to attack his teammate, I would consider adding something along the lines of:

KILL THE IMPOSTER
Instead of attacking, if Chameleon is adjacent to an opponent's figure friendly to the imitated figure, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, your opponent must immeadiately take a turn with the choosen figure and attack the imitated figure if possible.

As for his ability to imitated species, I believe it was for the sake of mutants and other humanoids that could be copied. I understand how he should not be able to look like Mimring, so I can see dropping the species change and adding that he may only imitate a medium human or mutant Unique Hero.

Phew got through it all.

[CStrife07]

And elves.[/quote]

[Lotus]

I think Chameleon as he is has a distinct advantage in many game types, just not deathmatches. Capture the Flag scenarios, he can't be killed. Any scenario that requires a player to get to a marker, or move past enemy lines he is perfect for.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

And elves.That was part of the species changing along with it, because there are a lot of humanoid figures who Chameleon should theoredtically have no trouble copying.

Aghhh... I'm redoing the card and I have no idea what background I used. If anyone can find it, I know I typed something in google and it was part of a larger picture of just other colors like that. Otherwise it's going to be a different background. I'm still looking too...

[GreyOwl]

Maybe you could just specify that he can imitate "humanoids"? I know that's not an official HS term, but I think most people would know reasonably well what to include and not include in that.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I'm wondering on what the concensous has become on Chameleon. Should I limit his powers to "humanoids"?

I have the card ready to post, the background is jsut changed a bit, though I think I like the previous card better.

[GreyOwl]

Not sure what the best way to go is. "Humanoid" would include Marro and Soulborgs, too. Depends if you want him to impersonate them as well. Should there be a size limitation? Krug is humanoid but a lot bigger. Can Chameleon impersonate him?

Maybe you could just list specific species like Human, Mutant, Elf, (plus whatever else) and put that they have to be between Height 4-6 or something...?

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Not sure what the best way to go is. "Humanoid" would include Marro and Soulborgs, too. Depends if you want him to impersonate them as well. Should there be a size limitation? Krug is humanoid but a lot bigger. Can Chameleon impersonate him?

Maybe you could just list specific species like Human, Mutant, Elf, (plus whatever else) and put that they have to be between Height 4-6 or something...?It already has medium only in the power, so that takes care of Krug. As for the humanoid part would something like:

"...you may choose any medium Human, Mutant, Elf, or Orc figure within line of sight of Chameleon..."

...work ok? Is there any other species to include? Also what was the decision on adding more firepower to the card?

[allskulls]

I think a medium Mutant or Human with a height of 5. His abilities are limited to imitating humans so elves and orcs should be out. Keeping it at 5 height would also save from him imitating Hulk and the like. Plus he doesn't grow or shrink. Adding Kill The Imposter will help him a lot but he still needs to be restricted in a balance and thematic sense.

[GreyOwl]

I think the height restriction is needed, in addition to the size of medium. Not only would it take care of cases like Hulk (as Allskulls pointed out), but also other customs that may smaller/bigger and still medium.

As far as what he should be restricted to, I guess it depends what version of the character you're doing. Originally he just used make-up, then a hologram, and now he can actually shapeshift. I'm guessing that the hologram version might be able to do things like Orcs or Marro (though he'd be taller), but probably not the other methods. However, the online bios all specifically say he can only impersonate humans. I think elves are probably close enough, but I wouldn't do anything other than Human, Mutant, and Elf. Even with Mutants you're going to run into some issues (like Toad and Nightcrawler, though those might be excluded based on height anyway).

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Hmmm... you guys have convinced me. I'll put the Medium 5 into place, that makes sense. I also put in the only Human, Mutants or Elfs.

As to the version I am doing, it's Chameleon up-to-date, the one described here:

The Chameleon can instantly change his appearance and imitate others so convincingly that practically no one can tell the Chameleon and his victim apart. His natural talents are now augmented with a face-changing serum...Later he obtained further powers by using a serum that could let him change his appearance at will. This liquid actually allowed his skin to be flexible enough to shift its appearance into any disguise Chameleon desired.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc164/hi1hi1hi1hi1/Marvel%20Creations/Spider-Man%20Related/Chameleon-1.jpg

[GreyOwl]

So did you decide not to use "Kill the Impostor" ?

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

So did you decide not to use "Kill the Impostor" ?I am holding off on it for now. If during playtesting it is decided that Chameleon doesn't do enough or is worth so little for his points, then I have no problems adding it.

It is still very thematic as there was a point when Chameleon dressed as Captain America and convinced Iron Man to attack the real Captain America. So in terms of flavor it is still accurate.

[GreyOwl]

I am holding off on it for now. If during playtesting it is decided that Chameleon doesn't do enough or is worth so little for his points, then I have no problems adding it.

I think the point is to only adjust cost in TNT, though, and to avoid making any card changes at that point. So whatever he can or can't do, we should get it done here.


It is still very thematic as there was a point when Chameleon dressed as Captain America and convinced Iron Man to attack the real Captain America. So in terms of flavor it is still accurate.

I don't see how the current ability will allow you to do something like this, though. How do you get your opponent to attack the impersonated figure?

[allskulls]

I am holding off on it for now. If during playtesting it is decided that Chameleon doesn't do enough or is worth so little for his points, then I have no problems adding it.

I think the point is to only adjust cost in TNT, though, and to avoid making any card changes at that point. So whatever he can or can't do, we should get it done here.
Indeed. If playtesting means there needs to be a slight shift in stats or a line added or subtracted here or there to temper or enhance abilities then that is fine. If a custom needs to be changed too much (like adding significantly gameplay altering abilities), it should go back to review to allow others to go to trial. Ideally we don't want customs going back and forth. Now is the time to decide what you want the custom to be. The main reason is that people are going to be giving their time to testing and we don't want those tests to go to waste. I think with the difference Kill The Imposter would make, all tests before adding it would become irrelevant. We may find out that he is not too effective in battle without it, but we could add Queglix Gun Special Attack to remedy that just the same but he would be different altogether. Just as he is with KTI.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Ok I see the point to adding it now or never. Maybe I will do some playtests on my own tonight and see how the current point situation is. Reguardless of the outcome, I'll report back here and ask for opinions if you guys think it should be added or not. Is that fair?

I would use something like this as the wording for killl the imposter:

Instead of attacking, if Chameleon is adjacent to an opponent's figure friendly to the imitated figure, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, your opponent must immeadiately take a turn with the choosen figure and attack the imitated figure if possible.

GreyOwl I am confused by your second response. How is it not represented in the above text?

[GreyOwl]

I thought you were saying that the current version of the card allowed you to do that, without needing to add Kill the Impostor. That's why I was confused.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I thought you were saying that the current version of the card allowed you to do that, without needing to add Kill the Impostor. That's why I was confused.Oh ok that makes more sense. I was refering to the power itself as keeping with the theme.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Ok we got in a 500 point play-test last night. It did use a couple of my other customs, but Spidey and Captain America were also in there.

Chameleon . . . . . . 70
Robin . . . . . . . . . . 210
Captain America . . 220

vs.

Spider-Man . . . . . . 160
Aqualad . . . . . . . . . 140
Mysterio . . . . . . . . 80
Ghostfreak . . . . . . 140

Yes I just realized that my brother's team was 30 points over the 500 mark, but we didn't know then. Anyway that didn't really come into play. During the first round, Chameleon was able to impersonate Aqualad, gaining the advantage of becoming a Teen Titan as a class. Using his new class, Chameleon was able to bond with Robin on the next turn, and together the two of them were able to kill Aqualad in the next two subsequent turns. After that point Chameleon gained no advantages from specific traits. He was killed in a short time by Ghostfreak's Nightmarish Innards Special Attack.

However the test proved some things. Chameloen does not have much firepower, but when used tactically, he can pack a punch. Chameleon's strength lies in his ability able to sneak around the battlefield virtually unharmable. That said I think he fits in perfectly for around 70 points.

A couple clarifications need to be made though:

1) I see no reason why Chameleon should not be able to impersonate an Atlantean, Tameranian (Starfire), or even Cyborg like Deathlok. I'm sure there are other species very close to humans that I am forgetting as well. I could even see him impersonating Undead like Cyprien with no problem, but with Marcu it gets more difficult, luckily I don't think Marcu is a Medium 5. :) .

2) What qualifies the target of a special attack? For example Ghostfreak's SA hits both friendly and non-friendly figures, so therefore they are all targets of the attack. It didn't come up, but the ability that Ghostfreak's attack is portraying would cause Chameleon to be hit whether or not he imitated a figure. In addition, the current wording does not really account for disengagement attacks. I think a slight change might be in order here:

REAL OR IMPOSTOR?
Chameleon is considered to be friendly to any figure friendly to the imitated figure and may not be targeted for attacks from friendly figures. An imitated figure is not affected by Real or Impostor?

I think that should clear it up. Tell me what you think.

Oh wait there's a 3, I just found out that the word is more correctly impostor rather than imposter. Heh, learn something new everyday.

[CStrife07]

Chameleon could actually be a very good glyph grabber.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

We got in a second play-test with other customs and Marvelscape figures:

Chameleon . . . . . 70
Nitro . . . . . . . . . . 180
Doctor Octopus . . 160
Red Skull . . . . . . 190

vs.

Lizard . . . . . . . . 150
Diamondhead . . 140
Electro . . . . . . . 160
Venom . . . . . . . 150

I won't go into the details of all the characters, just for Chameleon. He was first used to imitate Electro to prohibit a nearby Venom from taking him out. Chameleon then shot at Electro to inflict two wounds. Electro's next turn consisted of an attack on a far more dangerous Nitro, but resulted in Chameleon attacking him for two more wounds a second time. (Chameleon was able to gain height on Electro.) In the following turns Chameleon was able to single-handedly kill Electro (a figure more than double his cost) without being damaged even a single time. In the end however, it came down to a twice wounded Lizard vs. fully-healed Chameleon. (It was kinda funny that both villains are named after scaley green animals...) Chameleon managed to inflict two more wounds on Lizard, but couldn't stand up against a 5 attack.

After this test it became apparent that the limitations of Human, Mutant, and Elf are still a problem with just Marvelscape. Venom is a Symbiote and both Thanos ans Surfer are not Human as well. Should Chameleon be able to copy them?

[IAmBatman]

Sounds like Chameleon is plenty powerful without the ability to copy those others. I'm not sure if it makes sense for him to be able to copy them or not, though, so perhaps someone more familiar with the source material can comment. As far as playability, though, it sounds like he has plenty of targets even as is.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

That's true Bats. I'm going to leave him without the Kill the Imposter, he seems to be able to handle himself nicely for what he has to do. As for who to copy, I'm looking for some help here...

Oh and why are these all stickied now? I think it might be too much to have an entire page of stickies.

[IAmBatman]

See the Wolverine trial and here: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9759 for reasons it's stickied now. I'd say just stick to humans and mutants for who he can copy - you'll still have plenty of options and plenty of playability - particularly in supers only matches.

[NecroBlade]

Love the flavor of the "real" and "impostor" duking it out. He doesn't seem like he'll do much at all in Marvel games besides distract the imitated figure for a couple rounds, but that's why he's only 70 points.

[IAmBatman]

So, is this one ready for Trial, or what?

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

So, is this one ready for Trial, or what?I'm waiting for a consensus on who Chameleon should be able to copy. Humans and mutants for sure, but anyone else. Thematically it wouldn't be too hard for him, but for the sake of the game's simplicity I don't know.

[GreyOwl]

I think Elves should be on the list, since they are so human-like in the Heroscape universe.

[IAmBatman]

I'll support whatever decision you make on this one, Hi1. Maybe it'd just make sense to go by size, though? Medium 5 unique heroes? It's not like any figures in that size range aren't bipedal or are extreme Monsters to the best of my knowledge ... It seems like he should, therefore, be able to copy pretty much anyone in the Medium 5 range, as they're all fairly humanoid, at least in body shape.

[GreyOwl]

The only possible problem with allowing any figure that is Medium 5 is that would allow Soulborg, Marro, etc. That isn't a gameplay problem, but a thematic one because in the comics, he can only copy humans. But then again, this is Heroscape, so whatever you want. :P

[IAmBatman]

Just for the sake of furthering this speculation, here's a list of the "odd" figures in the Medium 5 unique hero category. By "odd" I mean not human, elf, or Marvel (which includes some interesting non human/elf figures, but that's another matter ...).

Laglor (Primadon)
Major X17 and Deathwalker 7k (Soulborg)
Sudema (Undead)
Ne-Gok-Sa (Marro - though more human looking than Sudema or Laglor ... and about as human looking as Red Skull, IMO)
Khosumet (Wolf)
Runa, Taelord, Saylind, Raelin (x2), Kelda, and Concan (Kyrie) (Kyrie seem to basically be humans with wings, and skin discoloration)

So that's currently 14 medium 5 unique heroes that are not Human, Elf, or Marvel.

As for the Marvel figures in that category (all of them so far), all are human, EXCEPT ...

Red Skull (clone)
Venom (Symbiote)
Silver Surfer (Zenn-Lavian)
Thanos (Eternal)

When it comes to customs, the main additional species tends to be "Mutant" though I think in both official and custom Marvel figures to come we'll see (and have seen) many other categories.

I'd say that Human, Mutant, and Elf are probably the most essential. Clone would be nice as well. I wouldn't feel too bad about missing on any of the other ones. Something like an Atlantean when we get to such things later might seem a little annoying, but I suppose there's nothing wrong in having plenty of medium 5 heroes available that can bypass this power. It's going to have an effect on his cost, though, one way or another.

[GreyOwl]

It would be nice if there was an official way of saying "any figure that looks mostly indistinguishable from human". That would rule out Mutants that look strange, and would include Clones and other figures (like Atlanteans and Elves...sort of). But I can't think of how to word that in a way that doesn't leave a LOT up to interpretation. :?

[IAmBatman]

I hear ya. "Humanoid" is just sooo open to interpretation. I almost think he should just stick to humans or go for all in the Medium 5 range (sure, they're strange, but none of them are toooo strange ...)

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

You're both right here, but fortunately it seems to be the only sticking point for Chameleon. We just need to reach a decision. Perhaps we should throw it up to a poll vote? Choose either:

Humans, Mutants, or Elfs

All Medium 5's

Other (describe below)

Wit the the other category, it would be very helpful to provide an alternate wording to go along with the suggestion. I'd like to get this figure up on trial but we need to get through this process first.

[IAmBatman]

I'm voting for the uncommitted delegate. :D
What I mean, is, I'll support whichever way you go with that. I can see the advantages either way.

[GreyOwl]

Same here...it's your custom, so I say you pick what you want.

[NecroBlade]

The main problem with listing copy-ables (human, mutant, elf) is that something else ALWAYS comes out that you wish you would've put in the list. My vote would be for Medium 5, since it's fairly accurate and simple. But, again, this is your custom. ;)

[IAmBatman]

All right, Hi1, time we got a decision, before I have to unsticky this.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

All right, Hi1, time we got a decision, before I have to unsticky this.I'm going to go with the original of all medium 5's. I'll have the card up within the hour.

Edit: Here we go.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc164/hi1hi1hi1hi1/Marvel%20Creations/Spider-Man%20Related/Chameleon-2.jpg

[IAmBatman]

Looks good to me. Any other concerns on this, or is it time to move to trial, guys?

[allskulls]

Call 12 angry men and get the gavel ready :D

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

So where are the angry men? :D

[GreyOwl]

Converted to a trial thread. Let's go! :D

[Troll Warrior]

1 ... 2 ... 3 ...

CLEAR!!!

No response.

1 ... 2 ... 3 ...

CLEAR!!!