Army Card Point Values

[fuzzysadist]

Okay, so I've gone thru the entire "Custom Units & Army Cards" forum, and I've noticed all kinds of good suggetions for making cards (Not an issue, I'm great with photoshop), and lots of good examples of cards. Love most of those (although I think I'd suck at directly modding miniautures, kudo's to those that do).

What I havent seen alot of is discussion on well balanced point values. For the most part, it looks like a lot of guess and 'best opionion'

Personally, I've been using "Heroscape Card Catalog" v1.09, but whenever I stray from the standard powers and abilities, I get mired in the 'best guess' arena.

I'd like to really nail down point values, so no matter where I went, and no matter who I play with, no one will complain about the power level of my customs.

With that, I'd like to start this thread, and see if everyone can work together to come up with a standard. I'll volunteer to take all of this information and drop it into a PDF that we can all use from that point on.

Since HCC1.09 is on sourceforget, and freely available, I'm going to assume its okay to use it as an example. I've peeled back a layer of and found they used these values:
LIFE
# : COST
1 : 5
2 : 10
3 : 15
4 : 20
5 : 25
6 : 33
7 : 40
8 : 50
9 : 65
10 : 120

MOVE
# : COST
1 : 2
2 : 4
3 : 6
4 : 8
5 : 10
6 : 14
7 : 18
8 : 25
9 : 30
10 : 60

RANGE
# : COST
1 : 2
2 : 4
3 : 6
4 : 8
5 : 10
6 : 14
7 : 18
8 : 25
9 : 30
10 : 60

ATTACK
# : COST
1 : 3
2 : 6
3 : 9
4 : 12
5 : 15
6 : 17
7 : 27
8 : 54
9 : 70
10 : 100

DEFENSE
# : COST
1 : 6
2 : 12
3 : 18
4 : 24
5 : 30
6 : 38
7 : 46
8 : 54
9 : 62
10 : 140

Not sure how they came up with them, but after making a few official armies, they seem to have done a fairly decent job.

As far as powers... theres a bunch of them, and obviously the hardest to work out....
They use two methods.
A direct cost, as in the example of Fireline (DC50)
Or a multiplied cost, as in the example of Flying (MC0.25)

Again, not sure how they came up with all the numbers, but it seems to work. When should something be a multiplier and when should it be a direct cost? No idea.

I'll type in all the standard powers and thier DC and MC costs and post them later... but that should be enough hopefully to get some discussion going.

Thanks,
Fuzzy

[justjohn]

I think the difficult part is that most customs include special abilities that haven't been used in official units. Kindof hard to come up with multipliers for that, imo.

I still think some of the official units are goofy on their costing, so using them as a concrete base is already leading you astray, I think.

As far as using set points for actual stats, I think that is great, but I think specials are the most grey of the areas.

I have seen some nutty cost totals come out of the custom card programs. I've never used any kindof formula when making customs. I just try to use common sense, and it seems to work fairly well for me.

Just try to make some using common sense for pricing, then post them, and people will tell you if they are on point, or not. It is just too difficult to put parameter pricing formula on abilities that do not exist.

[fuzzysadist]

Hmmm...
Not sure I agree.

Could be as simple as "each extra attack dice in the power over the units base attack is 5pts"
"Each hex of range is 2 points"

You get the basic idea. If we use the offical powers as a guideline... So for example, I made a power called "Flamethrower" for some space marines I built. Its identical to Fireline in everyway, except half the range... so I made the cost half as much.

With a ton of good examples (the official units) and some general rules... I think we could come up with a basic guideline fairly easily.

I'm already working on this myself... was just hoping for some help from the veteran players/customizers.

[Tin_Foil]

I agree. If there is a standard (wouldn't the official standard be great), it would not only make life easier, but more fair as well. With that said, I don't think the commnity as a whole will ever agree on one set standard. Heck, there are some Heroscape cards I look at and think, "Wow! They're THAT cheap and have THAT ability!". On the figures I'm making, I'd rather they be a bit over priced than a bit under priced.

I have another thread in the same light as this one http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=1548... Hopefully we'll both get the feedback we're looking for!

[justjohn]

I'm not arguing that some abilities would be able to do this. Your example is a perfect example of how it could be easily implemented.

Look at some of the figures in the halls(just chose this because it is easy to find. Most custom creator threads are littered with cards that have abilities with little or no precedent), alot of them have at least 1 ability that is very unlike anything else on an official unit/figure. Things like that, which I think the vast amount of solid custom units have, are difficult to fit into a price rubric.

I don't see anything wrong with your efforts, I just don't want you to pull out your hair trying to price things which have nothing to compare with.

[fuzzysadist]

LOL
Well I appreciate your concern over my hair, but I have plenty of that (thus, the "Fuzzy" part of my name).

I guess for those powers that are outside the norm of the game... even they basically 'break' or 'change' the rules in a specific way.

So if it changes move, or attack/defence, range, terrain, etc... we can work up basic 'guideslines'

Heck, even if its not perfect, at least it will hopefully bring in more of the army cards to a level that everyone can agree on :)

Unfortunately, I don't have the HCC's version of visual basic, so I'm writing a army card generator in CSharp. I'll implement the basic powers and point calculations we come up with... and maybe build a 'power builder' with the guidelines we suggest :)

Fuzzy

[Aranas]

Based on the values given in your first posts, one Zettian guard would be:
1 life= 5 points
4 move = 8 points
7 range = 18
2 attack = 6
7 defence = 46
TOTAL: 83 for only ONE Zettian
166 for the couple! :shock:
...and the special ability is not in the cost yet!!!

[fuzzysadist]

Well I hadnt posted all the costs and formulas because I didnt want to get too "code heavy"

Basically "Squad Targetting" has a MC = 0.15

It looks like they add up the costs for stats and call it the "Base Cost"
The divide the base cost by the # of units in the squad
They add the ability costs to each squad ... then multiply it back with the # of units in the squad

God knows where they figured all this out, maybe they have an inside man... but it works...

So looking at the Zettian Guards...
Life 1 = 5pts
Move 4 = 8pts
Range 7 = 18pts
Attack 2 = 6pts
Defense 7 = 46pts

So the base cost is (5+10+15+5+45) 83pts

There are 2 in the squad, so each unit costs 41.5
The targeting ability has a MC of 0.15 (0.15 x 41.5 = 6.225)

So each squad member costs (41.5+6.225) 47.752

Muliply this by the # in the squad (2*47.752) for a total cost of 95.45 (normalized) becomes 95

Hmmm... okay, so that a bit off.

But basically, thats how HCCv1.09 handles it. Not exact, but fairly close.

Fuzzy

[fuzzysadist]

I rewrote HCCv1.09 into a csharp program (but pretty much kept all the logic and pts the same)...

This is the output from it:

http://upload4.postimage.org/768397/Example.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/768397/photo_hosting.html)

And a screenshot of the program:

http://upload4.postimage.org/768404/Screenshot.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/768404/photo_hosting.html)

What do you think?
Fuzzy

[fuzzysadist]

So I copied out all of the "official" power costs.

Comments here would be greatly appreciated!

Special Ability : DC : MC : Description

Arrow Volley : 10 : 0.00 : Special Attack- Range 6, Attack 6. If three <unit> are on the same level and unengaged they may combine their attacks and roll their attack dice as one attack. All <unit> in the arrow volley must have a clear line of sight on the one target.

Attack Aura I : 60 : 0.00 : All figures you control within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> get 1 extra attack die. Taelord’s Attack Aura does not affect <unit>.

Attack Aura II : 10 : 0.00 : All friendly figures adjacent to <unit> add 1 die to their normal attack.

Attack Spirit : 0 : 0.10 : When <unit> is destroyed, place him on any unique Army card. <unit>'s spirit adds 1 attack die to the attack number on that card.

Beast Bonding : 10 : 0.00 : Before taking a turn with <unit>, you may first take a turn with any Beast you control.

Berserker Charge I : 0 : 0.15 : If <unit> attacks in a round in which he has been attacked he adds 1 to his attack.

Berserker Charge II : 0 : 0.10 : After moving and before attacking, roll the 20 sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher move all <unit> in this squad again.

Control : 10 : 0.00 : After moving and before attacking, you may choose any unique figure adjacent to <unit>. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 20 you now control that Army card and all figures on it. Remove any Order Markers on this card. If this unit is destroyed you retain control of any previously Mind Shackled Army Cards.

Counter Strike : 0 : 0.10 : When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Deadly Shot : 15 : 0.00 : When attacking with <unit>, all skulls rolled count for one additional hit.

Defense Aura I : 10 : 0.00 : All figures you control within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> add 2 to their defensive dice. Aura does not affect <unit>.

Defense Aura II : 10 : 0.00 : All friendly figures adjacent to <unit> add 1 die to their defense.

Defense Spirit : 10 : 0.00 : When <unit> is destroyed, place him on any unique Army card. <unit>'s spirit adds 1 defense die to the defensive number on that card.

Disengage : 0 : 0.10 : <unit> is never attacked when leaving an engagement.

Dodge : 0 : 0.80 : When <unit> roll defense dice against an attacking figure who is not adjacent, one shield will block all damage.

Double Attack : 0 : 0.30 : When <unit> attacks, it may attack one additional time.

Drop : 0 : 0.50 : <unit> does not start the game on the battlefield. At the start of each round, before you place Order Markers, roll the 20 sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher you may place all units on any empty spaces. You cannot place them adjacent to each other, other figures, or on glyphs.

Evasive Speed : 0 : 0.30 : When <unit> rolls defence dice against an attacking figure who is not adjacent add 8 defence dice.

Explosion : 30 : 0.00 : Special Attack: Range 7, Attack 3. Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by the Explosion. <unit> only needs a clear line of sight to the chosen figure. Roll once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. <unit> can be affected by his own Explosion.

Fireline : 50 : 0.00 : Special Attack: Range Special, Attack 4. Choose 8 spaces in a straight line from <unit>. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by <unit>'s Fire Line Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice once for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.

Flying : 0 : 0.25 : When counting spaces for <unit>'s movement, ignore elevations.* <unit> may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins.* When <unit> starts to fly, if he is engaged he will take any leaving engagement attacks.

Frenzy : 0 : 0.20 : After you take a turn with <unit>, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher you may take another turn with <unit>.

Frenzy Enhancement : 5 : 0.00 : Add 1 to your die roll when you roll for the Frenzy power on any Army Card.

Ghost Walk : 0 : 0.10 : <unit> can move through all figures.

Grapple Gun : 0 : 0.20 : Instead of <unit>'s normal movement he may move only one space. This space may be up to 25 levels higher. When using the Grapple Gun, all engagement rolls still apply.

Grenade : 7 : 0.00 : Special Attack: Range 5, Lob 12, Attack 2. Use this power once per game. Start the game with a grenade marker on the card. Remove the grenade marker to throw grenade. One at a time do the following with each unit in the <unit>. Choose a figure to attack, no clear line of sight is needed. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by the Grenade Special Attack. Roll 2 attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

Healing Touch : 10 : 0.00 : After moving and before attacking, choose a wounded hero figure adjacent to <unit>. Then roll the 20-sided die to add or remove wound markers from the chosen figure’s card: * If you roll 1, add 2 markers. * If you roll 2-5, remove 1 marker. * If you roll 6-17, remove up to 2 markers. * If you roll 18-20, remove all markers.

Kill : 50 : 0.00 : Before attacking, choose one medium or small figure adjacent to <unit>. If the chosen figure is a Squad figure, destroy it. If the chosen figure is a Hero figure, roll the 20 sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, destroy the chosen figure.

Melee : 10 : 0.00 : If <unit> is attacking an adjacent figure, add 4 dice to <unit>'s attack.

Orc Champion Bonding : 10 : 0.00 : Before taking a turn with <unit>, you may first take a turn with any Orc Champion you control.

Orc Warrior Enhancement : 20 : 0.00 : All friendly Orc Warriors adjacent to <unit> receive an additional attack die and an additional defense die.

Range Aura : 10 : 0.00 : Any Soulborg guards adjacent to <unit> add 2 spaces to their range.

Scout Leadership : 10 : 0.00 : All scouts you control can move an additional 2 spaces.

Shield Wall : 0 : 0.20 : When defending with another <unit>, add 1 defense die for each other adjacent same unit up to a maximum of 2 extra dice, for the Shield Wall power.

Slither : 0 : 0.20 : <unit> does not have to stop it's movement when entering water spaces.

Soldier Attack Enhancement : 15 : 0.00 : All friendly Soldiers adjacent to <unit> receive an additional attack die.

Soldier Bonding : 10 : 0.00 : Before taking a turn with <unit>, you may first take a turn with any Soldier you control.

Soldier Leadership : 10 : 0.00 : All Soldiers you control move one additional space.

Squad Targeting : 0 : 0.15 : When attacking, if more than unit in this squad attack the same figure, add one attack die of the latter attacks.

Warlord Bonding : 10 : 0.00 : Before taking a turn with <unit>, you may first take a turn with any Warlord you control.

Water Clone : 0 : 0.10 : Instead of attacking with <unit>, one at a time, roll the 20-sided die for each <unit> in play. If you roll a 15 or higher place a previously destroyed <unit> in this squad on a same-level space adjacent to that <unit>. Any <unit> on a water space needs a 10 or higher to Water Clone. You may only water clone after you move. (You must either clone or attack with all units in this squad.)

Thanks!
Fuzzy

[Kepler]

Can you override the cost and not use the formula?

[fuzzysadist]

In the program I wrote? I suppose so.
I think the better solution is to find out what the real formula should be, so that you wouldnt have to. After all, the concept here is to find a way of doing standard point values.

Also, we should also consider 'rules'... on my custom army thread someone was telling me that all 'common heros' can only have a life of 1... if that is a rule, it should be listed somewhere. That kind of thing.

Fuzzy

[AmishBurrito]

If there's a formula that works, i'll be really excited. Should be kind of hard to figure out tho : /

One thing I see that could be helpful, is that Life should be a linear function, each life adding the same number of points, whereas Defense and attack should be non-linear.

Not sure about move and range, but i'd think that move should be linear, whereas range should be non-linear

[AmishBurrito]

Also, some value for # of units in the squad, as well as if the squad is unique or common (common raising the cost since you can get more of them)

[Kepler]

In the program I wrote? I suppose so.
I think the better solution is to find out what the real formula should be, so that you wouldnt have to. After all, the concept here is to find a way of doing standard point values.


You are assuming that there is a fomula and I don't think there is (although I can't be sure). WOTC officially states that they don't use a formula for SW and D&D, and I think HS probably doesn't use one either IMO.

The formula that you posted (assuming it's the same one I've seen before) works pretty good on earlier released units (since it was developed using those units), however it does not work well on later units (I costed Guilty with the formula and he comes out to 72.8 -- more than twice his official cost).

One problem with the formula is that it is not dynamic enough. IMO range costs should be more for higher attack value.

For example, costing Syvarris gives a cost of 105 (pretty close to the official cost), but if you change his attack to six and that only adds 11 points. I would pay 116 for a Syvarris with 6 attack and 9 range any day.

Just somethings to keep in mind while you look for the formula.

[fuzzysadist]

One problem with the formula is that it is not dynamic enough. IMO range costs should be more for higher attack value.

Just somethings to keep in mind while you look for the formula.


I complete agree! My goal in posting the formula was sort of a "what has gone before" kind of thing. I'm currently applying the formula to the excell sheet "charas.xls". My hope is if I can see how FAR the points deviate, I might be able to modify it to match up closer.

Seriously, I have most of the #'s down... if you have a proposed point cost for a certain stat or ability... just post it here and I'll plug it in. My big hope is that we can all work together to figure this out... or at least get close enough that we can all agree it makes a good standard.

[Kepler]

Seriously, I have most of the #'s down...

Then I assume that you are using a different formula than what was posted. What formula are you using?