PreTrial: Symbiote Spiderman by Lotus

[UranusPChicago]

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/Biokanan/Heroscape/symbiotespiderman3.png

Overall Cosmetics: Some people may have issues with the different fonts used, but it does not cause any issues for me. If pressed for a answer I would recommend staying with the familiar font, but again, it really does not matter. Nice colors and picture. Hit zone icon looks good.

Left Box: The verbage works just fine. No need to create new Clases and Personalities here; Vigilante and Ruthless fits perfectly.

Flavor: I like that the Symbiote can continue to live on with another host. The Symbiote also creates a bigger, stronger, faster Spiderman, however, I wish his ruthlessness could come across in one of his abilities. The "flavor" comes across as just a bigger, stronger, faster Spiderman.

Special Attacks/Abilities:
Spider-Sense 13 - 5% better than Venom and 10% worse than Spider-Man.

Swing Line 4 - Same and Spider-Man and Venom.
"Instead of a normal move,<space> Symbiote SpiderMan may use Swing Line."

Symbiote - I have a few questions about the ability...
"When Symbiote Spiderman has at least 4 wound markers on his card, roll the 20-sided die." When does the roll occur? As soon as he reaches 4 wound markers, on the turn that he is attacked, on the turn/s that he is activated thereafter, at the beginning of each round thereafter, whenever he is attacked whether successful or not thereafter?

I would reverse the results of the die roll for "flow" within the ability. (IE, "If you roll a 1-10, nothing happens. If you roll a 11-20, stuff happens. See Spider-Sense for example).

"...you must place a Symbiote Token on the figure's card..."
or possibly...
"...you must place a Symbiote Token on the Army Card of the figure that destroyed Symbiote Spiderman."

Stats: Fit perfectly with the addition power given to Spider-Man via the Symbiote. Bigger (Life), Stronger (Attack), Faster (Move)...

Point Value: For some reason I can help but think he is a little undercosted, but alot of that comes from my questions of the Symbiote ability. In comparing Symbiote Spiderman with Venom looking at stats only, we see that SS has 1 more Life and 1 more Defense. When comparing abilities, SS has a 5% better chance with Spider-Sense. Venom has the bonus of Web SA and SS has the potential negative ability of Symbiote which also could limit SS to just 4 Life.

The additional Life and Defense coupled with a slightly better Spider-Sense definitely give SS greater staying power than Venom, but then again, it all hangs on how the Symbiote ability ends up being defined.

Man, this is a hard one to call. This one will definitely need some Point Value testing. My TheoryScape machine was broken by this one... :lol:

[Lotus]

Cosmetics - The font is kinda like my Trademark on cards. I use Comic as it gives them a bit of flavor.

Left Box - Thanks

Flavor - I don't really know how to add ruthless, I am pretty much out of text room as is.

Specials - The roll occurs when he receives his fourth wound token and every time after that. So when the token is placed, you roll.

I'll fix the typos, thanks.

The reason the roll is as it is, is so that things that improve your roll allow Spidey to live longer. Good things are supposed to be high, bad things low.

Cost - His cost is where it is because he is a target, imagine a Symbiote Hulk. It'd be a beast. But it may need adjusted, it was a guesstimate.

Any more comments that I need to take into consideration?

[UranusPChicago]

Cosmetics - The font is kinda like my Trademark on cards. I use Comic as it gives them a bit of flavor.

Left Box - Thanks

Flavor - I don't really know how to add ruthless, I am pretty much out of text room as is.

Specials - The roll occurs when he receives his fourth wound token and every time after that. So when the token is placed, you roll.

I'll fix the typos, thanks.

The reason the roll is as it is, is so that things that improve your roll allow Spidey to live longer. Good things are supposed to be high, bad things low.

Cost - His cost is where it is because he is a target, imagine a Symbiote Hulk. It'd be a beast. But it may need adjusted, it was a guesstimate.

Any more comments that I need to take into consideration?

I figured the font was a "signature" of sorts, I was just stating the obvious that some people will have issues with it, in the same way that some people had issues with classic Heroscape customs when the creators changed up the look of the cards (playing card shaped, triangular, etc.). I good custom should be judged on the information contained therein, and not the shape of the card and the collors and fonts used. I don't see it being a problem with the TNT process, but I am guessing that there are those out there that will not be able to overlook the difference from the official MarvelScape template.

In regards to the "ruthless" flavor, I honestly don't have any suggestions either. Some help I am, huh? :lol: To me, the additional flavor would be nothing more than a nice to have. The card is completely fine without it.

Pardon my ignorance, but I still have no idea what you mean by "The roll occurs when he receives his fourth wound marker and every time after that." I understand that you roll during the turn that SS receives his fourth wound, but what does "every time after that" mean? Every round? Every turn? Every SS activation? Any other time that SS receives additional wounds?

If it is the latter, my understanding then is that the Symbiote roll (with the exception of a figure healing SS) can only occur three times during the game at most. I will have to pull out my handy-dandy calculator to figure out what the percentage of times that the Symbiote will be passed on.

My concern with the verbage of Symbiote is that I don't think it is easily ascertained when the Symbiote rolls actually occur. And my suggestion of switching around the results of the die roll has to do with the "flow" of the verbage. Yes, Hasbro always has positive outcomes as the high roll, but they also use a certain font. :lol:

Last, but not least, cost. I will stand by my original statement of I have no idea. You may be dead on with points, but he is going to need some serious playtesting to figure it out. One on one figure testing will not be a good test, he will need team vs. team testing and that makes it more difficult to weigh point values.

[GreyOwl]

While I like the customs to look as much like the official cards as possible, I think in this case the font choice is a subtle change and in no way makes the card look "out of place" when placed next to official ones. So I have no issues with it, either. :)

As for the personality, I would suggest something that doesn't make him seem completely evil. Spider-Man had a lot of internal struggle with the symbiote, so maybe something like "Conflicted"? I know that's not what I used on my version of Symbiote Spider-Man, but now that I think about it I probably should have. :?

[Lotus]

Ok, let's try to clarify the roll as much as I can here. When Symbiote Spiderman receives his fourth, fifth and sixth wound marker, roll the 20-sided die . . . . .

The key word here is WHEN he receives it, hence you roll immediately, then every time he takes a wound after that. This wording though can still be interpreted 2 ways, one he rolls for each wound, even if two of them occur at the same time (which is fine to me) or that he rolls once if multiple wounds occur at once (which is also fine to me) but we need to settle on this.

The d20 roll needs to stay, as if for some reason you may add 1 or 2 to your d20 roll, I want this to reduce the chances of the Symbiote passing.

Now Greyowl, the personality can go either way, I chose "Ruthless" because it was an official personality and it fit the character, however "Conflicted" would as well. When he was black suit he showed no holdback when attacking, he'd just pummel his opponent for the joy of doing it, hence his current personality. This is a matter of pure taste though and go either way. Anyways, his class shows he is not purely evil, Vigilantes usually feel they are doing right, even if there reasoning is skewed.

Though I need to fix the name and put it in all CAPS.

[robbdaman]

Hmmmm... I'm not sure I like the flavor of what you've done here. The basic stats are definately more powerful though I wouldn't reduce his spidey sense from it's original 11. The symbiote death thing is interesting but I just don't think it captures the actual comic book occurance though it certainly makes his reduced cost seem reasonable. Personally I'd rather see him without that though and with the web attack added back in which would of course increase his cost to above 200 somewhere. Just my opinion.

R~

[Lotus]

Well I didn't want him to be too powerful so I reduced his Spidersense to compensate for his ego, and if I just made him a supped up Spiderman, what would be the fun, he'd have no flavor at all.

I based him off of the Cartoon more than the comic as I have never read the comics.

[GreyOwl]

Well I didn't want him to be too powerful so I reduced his Spidersense to compensate for his ego, and if I just made him a supped up Spiderman, what would be the fun, he'd have no flavor at all.

I based him off of the Cartoon more than the comic as I have never read the comics.

That explains why we had different interpretations of his personality. In the comics, he had a lot of internal conflict with the symbiote. He was somewhat ruthless at times but he tried to fight its influences constantly and usually felt guilty afterward.

That's okay, though. No point in all of us making the same version of the same characters. :)

[Lotus]

All my customs are based off the cartoon or movie versions, I don't really read comics.

[GreyOwl]

So are those a different Marvel "universe" (like Ultimate is) or are they in-continuity with the comics?

[robbdaman]

So are those a different Marvel "universe" (like Ultimate is) or are they in-continuity with the comics?

The cartoons and movies are their own version based off of things in the comics. Spidey Hollywood style if you will.

R~

[Lotus]

They are usually very similar as I understand it, but sometimes things come across differently.

However it is not a different universe.

[UranusPChicago]

For Symbiote, how about...

On any turn that Symbiote Spiderman's receives a fourth, fifth, or sixth Wound Marker, roll the 20-sided die.
- If you roll a 1-10, Symbiote Spiderman is destroyed and you must place a Symbiote Token on the Army Card of the figure who destroyed Symbiote Spiderman.
- If you roll a 11-20, nothing happens.
The Symbiote Token may only be placed on Unique Hero Army Cards and may only be placed once. The Symbiote Token adds 1 Life, 1 die to the normal Attack, and 1 die to Defense of the receipiant Army Card.

Just throwing out suggestions. I understand that verbage space is an issue. Hoping some other wordsmiths offer their help...

[EyeOfSauron]

While I don't have anything to contribute to the card... (I am enjoying the comments/conversation)...

I do have to ask if you have considered what to use for a figure. Has anyone tried doing a repaint of Spidey from the Marvel set? Is there a symbiote Spidey available from Heroclix?

I've got to have one now... :)

[GreyOwl]

There is a HeroClix, which is what I use. I guess in a pinch you could just use Venom from the Marvel set. I know they're not the same, but if you stand far away and your vision isn't too good to begin with, it might just look right... :shock:

[CStrife07]

What if Spidey is destroyed by a squad or a common hero. Maybe something like this...


SYMBIOTE
Whenever Symbiote Spiderman is wounded by an attack by an adjacent Unique Hero the attacking figure may roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 13 or higher place a symbiote token on the attacking figure's army card and destroy Symbiote Spiderman. Figures with a symbiote token add 1 to their attack and life. Figures with a symbiote token may not add one life to thier card if they only have one life. Any figure with a Symbiote token on it's card is considered to have Symbiote Spiderman's Symbiote ability.


Possibly raise the roll for Symbiote to like 15 or something but, Just trying to keep the point cost the same.

[Lotus]

UPC, has the verbage pretty well nailed I think.

CStrife07, if SS is destroyed by a non unique or Squad, nothing happens. The wording is pretty clear. Also, the Symbiote may only jump once, this limits the usefulness and keeps the ability more in check and easier to balance. Also, the ability should only work when he is lower on life, otherwise the Symbiote has no reason to leave.

Greyowl, is correct. there is a fairly cheap Symbiote Spiderman figure to use.

[CStrife07]

Okay. I'm just a little weary about Symbiote Deathwalker.

[whitestuff]

It may be a little late but here is my :2cents:
:putting on my teacher's goggles:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/netpic/09.jpg

Aesthetics: Just a couple of things...

I like your choice of art work :thumbsup: but I'm not loving the blue fogging that you've used. It just seems off to me.

The hit zone pic looks OK, maybe a touch big.

I am a bit worried that when printed out the text in the specials area will be very small and difficult to read. I know how difficult fitting everything in can be but the text really is quite small.

A more consistent approach to line spacing in your specials area would be advisable. You start at the top with a larger space between title and paragraph than what you end with. Maybe playing with this would allow for some increase in text size?

And finally -
Comic Sans... :puke: Honestly you could have picked any other font and I wouldn't have said anything. After you'd read hundreds of assignments in Comic Sans, you'd hate it too. ("But Mr Whitestuff, it is a cool font!" No, no it isn't. It is just awful.) I no longer accept assignments typed in Comic Sans. If you want a font that is like a comic book, that is cool with me, but why not pick one that isn't Comic Sans. Try one of these... (http://www.bancomicsans.com/fonts.html) and if not one of them, use anything else, please... :pray:

Left Box: It's all good. I'm cool with 'Ruthless'. :thumbsup:

Stats: If both Spidey and Venom have a defense of 4, I think SS should. Peter Parker is a better athlete than Eddie Brock which should be reflected in the difference in the Spidey Sense ability, not the defense number. Everything else :thumbsup:

Abilities/Powers: Spidey-Sense - I'd drop it back back 11. It is still the same guy after all.

Swing Line 4 - :thumbsup:

Symbiote - I think this is an interesting idea but having read UPC's verbage, I'm not sure how you'll fit it all on the card. BTW, is there a Symbiote token? Can one of your own team kill you and take the Symbiote? That would be better than any old viking aura :)

Cost: This one is really tricky. No ranged attack really hurts but an increased attack with a 50/50 chance of the Spidey-Sense might allay some fears of close quarters combat. I'm thinking that perhaps the increased attack might be of the same worth as the Web Special, so maybe leave it at 160?

Flavor: I like what you are trying to achieve with this card. To play him you'd have to be a little 'Ruthless'. Run him in close and chance your luck on the hits coming your way. I think he'd be fun to field in a team. :thumbsup:

BTW, could you have both Spidey and SymSpidey in the same team?

Oh and one last thing...
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/netpic/nocomicsans180x180.gif

[IAmBatman]

I think the font looks nice. :D

[whitestuff]

I think the font looks nice. :D :excited: :frustrated:

[IAmBatman]

:lol:

[Lotus]

Whitestuff

If you ever post that picture again, I may massacre you in your sleep.

I may ditch the fogging entirely actually. It never looks in place on art for me. Well, on occasion.

I'll try to reposition and adjust the text to make it larger. Hopefully when we get the wording on Symbiote nailed, it'll help.

Comic Sans is my favorite, I love to post it on mailboxes and billboards, etc.
Ok, so this is the only place I have ever used it, because it is appropriate, though there are some other good ones in there, perhaps, I'll consider.

SS has a higher defense because the suit makes him take hits better.

His Spidey-Sense was lessened to help keep his cost down. I figured the suit while not dampening it, would cause him to pay less attention as he treated him self as invincible.

I would like a Symbiote token, but don't have one yet. I figured people could use the black token.

Technically you can have Spiderman and Symbiote Spiderman on the same team. They are different characters. You could just pull the "They are from different universes" crap.

[GreyOwl]

SS has a higher defense because the suit makes him take hits better.


By that logic, though, his defense should be the same as Venom's.

[Lotus]

Fine, SS's defense is where it is because it is my custom!!!!!
Anyways, Venom is not the same as Symbiote Spiderman. Peter and Eddy were different people with different strengths, comparing them really isn't fair in my mind.

Anyways, you'll note his stats are the same as Spiderman with the Symbiote Token, except his strength, which is an additional 1 higher, I added this as normally Spiderman holds back a bit to not kill his opponents, but with the Symbiote he just doesn't care.

[GreyOwl]

Fine, SS's defense is where it is because it is my custom!!!!!

Can't really argue with that. :)

[IAmBatman]

Well, Symbiote Spiderman is still a bit slighter than Venom and, theoretically, might not stand up to hits as well as Venom does. He probably is faster and more agile, though ...

[allskulls]

I like the idea of the symbiote jumping from hero to hero. The ability is a liability as it should be and should carry over that liability to each hero. Maybe make the only bonus be +1 attack and in addition replace the host's personality with Ruthless.

I think the Spidey Sense can stay at 11 also. He was better in every way with the suit...just Ruthless. I think the negative effect of Symbiote should keep his cost in check as well as his 6 life.

[UranusPChicago]

:boring:

Where are we with this Peer Review? Are we waiting on a new card?

[IAmBatman]

Well, did you and Lotus decide any changes needed to be made or not? I didn't have any complaints about the card. :D

[whitestuff]

I didn't have any complaints about the card. :DI did and it's name is Comic Sans :evil:

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but that's more personal nitpick than reason to hold up a TNT trial, no offense.

[whitestuff]

Yeah, but that's more personal nitpick than reason to hold up a TNT trial, no offense.I am what I am...
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/netpic/200px-Mr_Grumble.jpg
;)

[IAmBatman]

Any SERIOUS misgivings remaining on this one? :P

[UranusPChicago]

I believe that all we are waiting on here is a reprint of the card with cleaned-up verbage for the Symbiote ability.

[NecroBlade]

I didn't have any complaints about the card. :DI did and it's name is Comic Sans :evil:Agreed. :lol: It just doesn't look good with the other fonts, IMO. Also, I'm not in a hurry to get versions of cards we already have before we get new guys. That said, I have no "serious" complaints. :P

[IAmBatman]

You still around, Lotus?

[IAmBatman]

Due to what appears to be lack of interest on the part of the creator, this one's losing its sticky.

[Lotus]

I must apologize for my lack of activity. I became very busy at home, and therefore avoided most of my forums.

I am currently updating this card with all the text adjustments and such that were suggested. It shouldn't take me very long.

Later,
Lotus

EDIT: Here is the updated version, due to large requests, I improved his Spider-Sense, I also upped his cost by 20 points. I cleaned up the text for the Symbiote ability. I did not change the font ;)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/Biokanan/Heroscape/symbiotespiderman.png

[Lotus]

Alright, might I ask if this is better, or are there any text improvements that need made? Maybe we can clear things up a bit to help enlarge the font, I know it is kinda tiny.

[UranusPChicago]

I think the new verbage works. I have not printed out a card, so I don't know yet if the font is too small.

The only small textual changes that I see from the Symbiote verbage are...
"you must place a Symbiote Token on the figure's card..."
"If you roll an 11-20, nothing happens."

The word "happens" is over the border. You do have enough room to move words around to make it fit without needing to overlap.