A Topology Problem of sorts

[Revdyer]

Okay, so, I've got forty (40) tables that are three (3) foot by eight ( 8 ) foot.

Most people can reach across one table, but not two.

How do we set these up for mega-HS?

Space is not a particular issue, but I would not want to see a set up that is twenty tables side by side (160 feet x 6 feet).

People, probably, shouldn't have to crawl under tables. There is no crane lift to hang them over.

One big U shaped set-up might work. But is there anything more (even MUCH MORE) interesting?

And how many MS would it take just to cover the surfaces?

Thanks for the help.

[Dragon4201976]

Have you thought of connecting the tables using bridges?

[Bannister]

4 teams using five tables made into an "H"?

Capture the flag with four tables made int a "Y"?

You could put the tables in different formations not quite stacking them.


=====XX=====
XXX=====XXX
=====XX=====

You know what I mean??

That way you good still get good access to everything without to much walking?

Just quick thoughts.
:D

Bannister

[Revdyer]

Oh, clearly I haven't stated the problem well enough. "Mega-HS" needs to involved ONE map. With up to forty armies. The bridges might work, except for the "crawling under" problem. How do I arrange this "world" for the most fun?

[Kepler]

Use teleportation tiles to get figs from table to table, and each table would represent a different region (volcanic, forest, etc.).

[Revdyer]

Hmmm...that's a real possibility, Kepler; although I'd like one contiguous surface if possible within a reasonable configuration.

[Bannister]

15 Tables 1 map, multiple start points, easy access, no ducking. You could make it 20 tables 1 map it you add 1 more section.

Just a thought.

:D


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/D_Bannister/15tables1Map.jpg

Bannister

[Revdyer]

Oh, that is excellent, Bannister! Thank you. That could expand to the forty in a large duplication. Now we're rollin'!

So...does anybody know how much real world area a MS covers (water included)?

[CornPuff]

The Rev has invented Mega-HS!
Party in Little Rock!
:rock: :rimshot: :rock:
:woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot:

[Dragon4201976]

you will need at least 3 master sets for each table to go corners to corners

[Revdyer]

Thanks, Dragon.

Cornpuff look for something happening in late summer '07 somewhere near the middle of the country.

[Bannister]

When is this gathering Revyder?

Bannister

[Mystyc]

So...does anybody know how much real world area a MS covers (water included)?
It depends a lot on whether you want elevations. Just laying it flat is sort of boring, but one Master Set would cover a bit more than a standard card table. Of course, with this much area in play, you should go for a little more precision than that.

[Revdyer]

When is this gathering Revyder?

Bannister

I thought, first, that it would need to be after I retire; but on further thought, I think I can get this together as a quality event (I don't want to do anything less) in late summer or early fall of next year (2007). I know, for myself, that lead time will be crucial. The location and situation is good. Gathering MS's and stuff may be a bit harder, but not critical. At this point it looks like I'll need 120 MSs, so if I win the lottery (we don't have one in Arkansas) or can work out a "bring all you can" sort of thing or some other sponsored thing, it'll be very interesting. Of course, we can always drop down to 60 MS and about 40 armies <grin>.

Anyway, about a year and a couple of months from now??

[K/H_Addict]

40 tables? thats almost more tables than Chameleon has Master Sets!


do your people not walk around when they play? i walk around mymaps regardless of size or shape, so, if space isn't a problem, i wouldnt think table lyout would be too hard to figure out...

[Revdyer]

Walking is fine and we do, K/H, but us old people can't get up after we crawl under the tables; at least not unless there is a Martini on the table. :)

[K/H_Addict]

come on man, you have a dog that keeps you in shape!



make one huge square. 10 tables long by 10 tables wide. Have everyone stationed in between the tables. You did say everyon could reach across one table right? I think this might be your best setup. Hell, leave a 2-4 foot gap between 2 tables for entering and exiting for drinks, food, bathroom, etc. this should be 80x86 hollow square for HS.

[Revdyer]

K/H, you may well be right. Keep it simple and using the hollow square might be the best way to go. Let's see what else is possible?

[CornPuff]

Remember Hasbro's Bring your kid to work day?
http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/images/work2_lg.jpg

Ah, Mega-HS will put them to shame....

[Revdyer]

Thanks, Cornpuff. I'd not seen that.

[K/H_Addict]

HOLY HELL!

[CornPuff]

More pics of Hasbro's bring your child to work day here (http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/pl/newsID.6AD9226F-D56F-E112-4A7581DDC1908B26/page.news/dn/default.cfm) and here (http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/pl/newsID.6ADAF8F4-D56F-E112-4452CDB5FE328550/page.news/dn/default.cfm)

On a seperate note, I've strung maps out between 2 card tables before and was disapointed. The tables (same make model etc) weren't quite the same height, and also did not have the same angle. I tried to fix it by placing a sheet of really thin cardboard (manilla folder) under the crease, but it didn't do much. I think a peice of felt would do it, so I'll try that out next time.

It may have been that both table sag in the middle, so their join formed point, which made the map look kinda like it was pulling appart

[Revdyer]

HOLY HELL!
<laughing> That's an oxymoron.

So, picture that set-up times ten...that's what I want (at a minimum).

[K/H_Addict]

HOLIER HELL!

do you have that much?



WTF?

[Revdyer]

I've got that many tables and room available, not that many HeroScape hexes.

[K/H_Addict]

damn i would love to play on a field that covers 6880 square feet of table!

jeez, i wonder how many sets that would take to go say, 13 levels high?

[jcb231]

Walking is fine and we do, K/H, but us old people can't get up after we crawl under the tables; at least not unless there is a Martini on the table. :)

Make sure to put a bar in the middle, and you're golden.

Anyway, if a person can reach across one table, you can make each section two tables wide. That way they just reach across from one side or the other and can still reach the middle, know what I mean? I agree with you that the map has to be as continuous as possible....pose this question to some math guys. See what they come up with for the best possible configuration of continuous land area given that a person can only reach across one table.

Also, if you invest in, or find, some of those little claw sticks, you can move figures from a bit further away. Those are pretty cheap. Or you might be able to find someone who has a handful of them lying around their kitchen....or maybe you could borrow them from some older folks that use them to reach cans and such. You'd only need one, but more would be nice to avoid handing everything back and forth.

As for dice rolling, I'd suggest dice towers, so as not to be rolling dice all over the huge room. You might need to have someone who's not actively moving figures do all the rolling, and just yell out the results. So if I'm out there crawling under tables moving Syvaris, and decide to attack your Charos, you could be sitting on the sidelines, drinking your martini, and just roll for both of us. I trust you like that.

Also, expect to setup an area for side games for the losers. Either HS or just some boardgames or cards or even some XBOX action for a change of pace. Just something to keep them occupied. There's only so long someone can spectate a HS match before it gets boring, or they start backseat driving "Move Krug there!"

Ask the dudes that have 40 plus sets to come. They might be able to handle the whole setup.

[JerBear]

Here's a possible solution:

Take Bannister's 5 table unit from the sketch, and double each table, giving you a 10 table unit. Set four of these 10 table units (your 40 table) around some unique central table and put some mountain there, with some uber-glyph at the top. The whole setup would be a ballpark of about 40'x45' (if you used a 6x6 table in the middle)

http://upload4.postimage.org/708651/ablesetup.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/708651/photo_hosting.html)

[Revdyer]

[Make sure to put a bar in the middle, and you're golden.

Anyway, if a person can reach across one table, you can make each section two tables wide. That way they just reach across from one side or the other and can still reach the middle, know what I mean? I agree with you that the map has to be as continuous as possible....pose this question to some math guys. See what they come up with for the best possible configuration of continuous land area given that a person can only reach across one table.
Also, expect to setup an area for side games for the losers. Either HS or just some boardgames or cards or even some XBOX action for a change of pace. Just something to keep them occupied. There's only so long someone can spectate a HS match before it gets boring, or they start backseat driving "Move Krug there!"
You've stated the problem correctly, and the ideas of a bar in the middle (if we're not doing something including minors) and the "other things to do" nearby is excellent (especially the latter).
As to asking the math guys...that's what I thought I was doing here! <grin>

Oh, and JerBear, thanks for the suggestion. I'll look at that one long and hard.

[djsmith]

If I were to take on a project of this sort, I would set-up my tables something like a continuous "snake" like pattern.

ie.. 3 tables lengthwise up (end to end), then 2 table over then, 3 tables down, 2 tables over, then repeat. I think you could get a nice continuous flowing map this way

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j256/nwnnight/HS/TABLELAYOUT.jpg

[Revdyer]

I guess the other "big" option is some variation on the daisy wheel, djsmith.

[djsmith]

Or you could do a "maze" type of set-up too, that would interesting. Make the scenario based on the table maze. Just trying to think off the beaten path.

[UranusPChicago]

This, in theory, sounds like an awesome event and I would love to be a part of it when it happens, but the idea has me already thinking of problems that you might face...

Order Markers - How will that work with that many participants? It might work better starting with mini 1 v 1 battles (contained on the huge map) for a predetermined amount of rounds to thin out the armies. During this time, you could not attack units that were not a part of your current battle. If some battles blaze through the "X" amount of rounds faster than others, they can walk around and watch other battles until everybody has caught up. After that, the game could continue on depending on Team or Freeforall format.

Starting Zones - Not really a problem, just something to take under consideration.

Marking of figures - Pretty much a necessity to sort every thing out in the end. It might be confusing during actual game place to tell people's units apart (think 10 different armies of Orcs) unless everyone has painted the bases different colors or some similar markings...

Free for all vs. Team Play - I see value for either format. It would be cool to assign Team Generals and other rankings within teams to determine overall strategy, but that might be a little too much. :lol:

Last but not least...
Time - It will take the good part of a whole day to get through this. But man, it would be worth it!

There certainly are other considerations to think about, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling, because I would love to see something like this really happen.

[yagyuninja]

This would be fantastic.

Taking into account what UPC said though, I remember a thread over at HQ about someone setting up a real big game and the difficulties he ran into. I think it was Pilgrim. Whoever did this might have some good suggestions.

One way that I have thought of doing the order markers is using effective range. You could have many set games going (1v1, 2v2, whatever) and their order markers would be in sync. But you would not necessarily be in sync with the person next to you until one of your units is within move-and-attack range.

[Revdyer]

Good thoughts, UPC. Some of the problems/issues/challenges I'd already begun to consider. Others are new ones. I think I'm going to need to get ahold of one of those judges chairs from a tennis match (or a life-guard chair) to have some sort of War-Master sitting above the various battles.

I've thought some on a relatively inexpensive way to mark armies; am still thinking, too.

As to time, I'd envisioned a Friday set-up, Saturday (all day, pretty much) game, Sunday cool down social or go home, sort of schedule.

The advantage of having a conference center to do this at is having lots of set up space and rooms all within walking distance and meals provided on site.

[reapersaurus]

I'm shocked it took till page 4 to bring up the problematic practical concerns with this idea.

While it is admirable, and big-in-scope, the realities of the HS game pretty much make such an event impractical.

How would the gameplay for this go?

Player 1 goes, then player 40 goes 2 hours later?
There's Turn 1.
Now Turn 2 - 2 hours and 40 turns later, it is player 1's 3rd turn.

THEN roll for initiative, 6 hours later.

Simply NOT FUN in reality.

You'd have to make some arbitrary zones that people could take turns in, to allow smaller groups to go faster than 1 big group.
Then different zones will get off-synch in turn order with each other, and then they are playing different games, and then WHY did you make such a huge interconnected map in the first place?

Smaller maps, with smaller groups of players is the ONLY practical way to play Heroscape.

[CornPuff]

Aw, stop being such a party pooper, Reaps.
There are many things to do to keep it action packed, its just that they are a bit more creative than the standard rules.

There is caravaggio's order marker variation, for example,

Zones, Smaller maps, smaller groups. Those are good ideas to be incorporated into a larger structure. I think we can make it seem more massive and fun, we just have to brainstorm it a little bit more.

Im sure the biggest most interconnected map ever can work just fine. Addressing the problem is the first step, now its time to solve them.

[Doc_Savage]

I think that imagining the set up as a huge underground lair would help. Then there is a reasoon that the tables don't all connect together in a huge inaccessable square.

Be sure to keep all the tables 6' wide so that everyone can reach and connect in those 'H' patterns as much as possible.

Play wise, you will need to assign people into groups so that everybody in group A goes with turn 1, then B does turn 1, etc. The 20sider only needs to be rolled after each round to deetermine group order and then again if 2 people in the same group have troops in contact.

Good luck Rev!

You have the space, the tables, the desire... but do you have enough players to make this happen?


Bah to the naysayers! Go for it!

[reapersaurus]

Aw, stop being such a party pooper, Reaps.Look, I LOVE the creativeness and boundless energy and attitude this idea represents more than the next guy.

But it simply cannot work as one large map/world.

Reason: already stated.

It is a catch-22:
1) Either everyone is playing on the same interactive map, which dictates that everyone follow the same initiative and order markers, and it will be 2 hours between turns (and therefore, I'm guessing that would be less fun than a normal game)

or

2) The players are split up by some means - either tables, or different zones, into smaller HUGE maps. Therefore, they WILL be playing in different Order Marker sequence, therefore they aren't playing in the same map/world.
This defeats the whole original idea, since if everyone is split up and not playing interactively, why not just play the way the game was designed to play - with small groups, on self-contained maps.
Everyone can still be playing together, in the same room, having fun together.

But based on the Heroscape rules and what they dictate the play to be, most players would have more fun on smaller maps than wiating 2 hours between turns (average of 3 minutes per turn)

[Taeblewalker]

If I were to take on a project of this sort, I would set-up my tables something like a continuous "snake" like pattern.

ie.. 3 tables lengthwise up (end to end), then 2 table over then, 3 tables down, 2 tables over, then repeat. I think you could get a nice continuous flowing map this way


True enough DJ!
The only thing missing would be the ability to "spread out" on two table widths.

Another suggest is to build bridges that go over people's heads, so player can duck under. This might practicable with the castle sets.

Another idea is to have a few tables on risers, high enought to walk under. You would need adajacent bleachers or something to access the tables, and you would probably need to build huge mountains on the adjacent tables.

Taeblewalker

[Taeblewalker]

Sorry about the awful typos in that one!

[Codeman]

Remember - Were there is a Will there is a way. ( Rember to invite Will )

[Runehardt]

Guiness book of records?... or maybe just Guinness Stout!

[jakethesnake]

Instead of having 40 opposing army's you have 2 teams of 20 each. Lets say everybody shows up with a 500pt army, selects one of the 40 designated starting points which has a face down playing card on it. Before the game starts the cards are flipped, those having hearts, diamonds etc. are on one team and those having spades, clubs etc. are on the other. The cards were shuffled and randomly distributed to start locations so noone knows which army they will be on until the start of the game. Some members of a team may find themselves surrounded from the outset and have to battle like crazy to surrive. You will only need to roll for initiative once per round. This will seriously speed up play because if your units are close enough to 2 or 3 opposing teams they will all get a crack at you before you can react. Just one possible idea!

[JerBear]

Possible ideas- using some sort of pinwheel/concentric table set up

Don't let armies be too big

Use a clockwise rotation initiative. (give everyone a starting number based on placement zones)

Units that have unique movement/placement/targeting that allow for crazy distances from the starting zone quickly (like the AE drop) are limited to placement on the same table as occupied by a unit of that army at the beginning of the round. That way, it slows up the ability of players to cover a lot of ground, but it des allow some advantages for the special abilities.

Realistically, multiple players can be taking their turns at the same time in a given round for at least the first several rounds. Only people in the same regions need to worry about actual turns and order markers. There will definitely have to be judges keeping track of when the groups starting out in different regions need to be merged, but by that time, some players will be out. The judges can also keep a round counter or bell to let everyone know when it is okay to go ahead to the next round. Since everyone will already have their number, it shouldn’t be that hard to merge regions.

It will really require a lot of organization and a little testing by judges ahead of time.

[Agent Minivann]

It is a catch-22:
1) Either everyone is playing on the same interactive map, which dictates that everyone follow the same initiative and order markers, and it will be 2 hours between turns (and therefore, I'm guessing that would be less fun than a normal game)

or

2) The players are split up by some means - either tables, or different zones, into smaller HUGE maps. Therefore, they WILL be playing in different Order Marker sequence, therefore they aren't playing in the same map/world.

Something this epic (not the UD type of epic) would require some rule tweeks. I don't think this has to be a one or the other. Another option is to do turns more or less simultaneous. There will be a gamemaster/warmaster/scapemaster that will announce "Round 1 Turn 1" and everyone plays their turn 1. IF there are more than one army in a predetermined range I'll call a "conflict zone", then initiative is rolled prior to the first turn played by those armies within the conflict zone. For simplicity a conflict zone could be the map on one table. When everything in turn 1 is completed each player signals in some manner and the scapemaster announces "Round 1 Turn 2". This way the turns are being played out relatively quickly and simultaneously. When there is no one nearby, the turns go really fast. When it gets close enough to do some red and blue dice rolling, it will slow down a bit, but only by a factor of 2 or 3. Then at some predetermined point, it will shift to a traditional game with initiative rolls and such.

A few other suggestions:

Use the alternate order marker rules from carravagio (or however his name is spelled). I know someone else mentioned it already, but I'll second it. Especially with a map of this size.

Use teleportation tiles to aid in movement further. Also mentioned before. This needs to be there to speed up the movement a bit. Maybe at some point the surviving units are automatically teleported to a second stage starting zone.

Use modular maps like GaryLASQ's just for the sake of simplicity. It might be a good way to keep Master Sets separated by owner. I think it would just add to the cool factor to see a giant map made up by big hexes made up by smaller hexes. If only the tables were also hexes, this would be ubergeek cool.

I think it would also be good to have a few assistant scapemasters to signal when their charges are finished with rounds in the early going to the head scapemaster. Also to be judges and kick out rules lawyers.

For layout, I think a winding S type of thing would be best. Maybe a few sets of parallel rows. I think two tables wide is the best set up. At the ends when it "curves" toward the next row it should only be a single wide. Maybe 2 by 4 rows with 1 by 2 going to the next row.

Rev, I think this is a great idea. If it is in my power to be there, count me in.

[skyknight]

I think with a little creativity and a bending of a few rules this could be done. Great idea Rev, I am extermely busy with life at the moment which is why I have only posted a few times this week. If I get a chance I will sit and ponder this for a while. I know it can be done, where there is a will.....

[Revdyer]

Well, LOTS of good ideas so far (thank you all) and some much needed reality too (thanks, reaper, sincerely, thanks). I think there are still possibilities to this. One thing is sure, I never envisioned taking forty turns before the first player got to go again. Reaper is right that this would kill all the fun. I was thinking more in lines of four groups of ten in some way being able to coordinate their moves. The idea, though, of a winning army (or what's left of it) having to MOVE to the next battle, not just getting up and moving to a new game, still appeals as something different, worth doing, perhaps, once in a life-time.

We'll see. I'm sure not done thinking or planning yet. What I do not want to do is a traditional tourney. There are plenty of other folks who know how and have done that already, and more power to them.

[Nooblar]

Wow, this is going to be one awesome layout!

Table Layout: A snake sounds ok, but the only problem is that it's really long and thin (duh). To get to the other side, you have to walk all the way around, at the worst, 20 tables. And with all those people there crowding around tables it might be hard to squeeze in again... Consider a centralized table, maybe a U or C/G shape, with other tables radiating out from it. And all the tables don't necessarily have to be used for the main layout--use five or whatever to set up maps for the losers.

Map Design: I heard it somewhere, use MOPs instead of regular maps!!! I can't say how much I like this idea! It makes it easy to distinguish master sets by owner, size and shape are variable yet still compatible, and it will leave open space on the tables for cards, dice, drinks, etc.

Game Flow: I DEFINITELY agree with simultaneous action! The guy in the tennis judge chair (lol nice idea) will roll the dice, call out orders for teams (have a bullhorn on hand?), and every team will move simultaneously. If there's ever a 2-on-1 situation, it would really be little different than if the two armies took their turns then the lone army took its turn after. It may be slightly unbalanced, but hey, that's strength in numbers.

Be sure to have plenty of side-activities and access to refreshments! Also, have you considered some kind of entry fee to the event? Discount tickets for people who bring master sets?

You mentioned a convention center--might this be run over two days? I can imagine hotels and food places nearby a convention center, and you may very well need two days to set up and run a 40-team battle (although simultaneous action may speed things up a bit).

Wow that got long-winded, but there are so many ideas to consider!

[Revdyer]

The venue I have in mind is actually a conference center, with rooms and catered meals right on site. I was thinking of a three day/two night weekend event. The cost would run around $100 for everything except transportation (two nights' lodging and five or six meals).

Still, we've generated a lot of ideas in a very short time. I've produced other types of conferences and my experience says that I need six or eight weeks of "back-ground thinking" to pull a workable vision together. I think we're on the way toward that!

[Bannister]

I have thought on this and I think the pinwheel really is the way to go.

You would need 11 tables.

21 Individual Maps connected by narrow strips of land to make 1 large map. Each area could be selectively blocked off from the other maps to prevent the battles from running together. With 1 large map at the spoke of the pinwheel.

Round 1

40 players play 20 individual games on the 20 maps. 20 Winners will move on to Round 2. Once round one is over you could unblock the maps and move players in towards the center. After this you could always disconnect the tables of the outside from the main map to make more room and to give 10 maps for the 20 losers of round 1 something to play on.

Round 2

20 players play on 10 maps. 10 winners will move on to round 3. Winners move towards the central map.

Round 3

10 players play on 5 maps. 5 winners move to the large map in the center. At this point all other maps can be disconnected to move the tables out of the way for the final battle.

Round 4 - Finals

Last 5 players fight it out on the large central map to determine the winner.

I am assuming a tournament style game is what you are after.

The first round will be kind of crowded in places but I think that will be the case no matter what you do.

Bannister

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/D_Bannister/11tables1map.jpg

[CornPuff]

Alright! Momentum and energy!

Here are my suggestions:
The table layout should tie into the scenario. I like the idea of having everyone stream to the same place, encountering new enemies and allies along the way. I suggest the map looks like an NCAA tourney bracket, and in the middle will be the largest castle HS has ever known, complete with all sorts of secret passages to get inside, so that it isn't insurmountable if one side takes control.

I mentioned it should look like a touney bracket, or a tree if you are are familiar with graph theory . Starting zones would be the leafs of the tree. Each player would move up the tree and inevitably end up n combat with their neighbor. The victors keep pressing closer to the castle. At the next intersection, they may encounter allies or enemies. If the enemy force is stronger, they have the option of just running to the castle to help their allies in the final showdown.

2 teams.
Everyone on the same team moves at the same time, then attacks at the same time. of course, a defending figure can only roll one set of blue dice at a time, so attacks will be serialized a bit. I'd say no teleporting, and no zones. If you want to get to the castle, you will have to hike it their in real time.

If there are 2 teams of 20, it will play similar to 2 players with 20 sets of order markers each. Strength in numbers for sure, its all in the strategy.


No Saylind? I think everyone would want three. Maybe you could limit her range to 40 hexes or something

edit: spelling

[Nooblar]

I thought he said he wanted to avoid a tourney-style game...? Oh, well, there are certainly tourney mechanics that could be used to speed up a big game. I like CornPuff's idea, but it's an awful lot of time spent in transit for players at the ends of the pinwheel. Don't limit Saylind's range or some armies might just make it to the castle in time for the victory feast (or headsman's block, if their team loses lol).

It might also help to have relatively small army sizes (300-400?) so that fewer figures get left behind in the race to the castle. Of course, an extensive road system might serve the same purpose. Hehe, build a coliseum and have all roads lead to Rome :D

[RichardD]

I concur - 3 Master sets per 3x8 table; it won't be enough for complete edge-to-edge coverage, but you want to allow space at the edge of the tables for cards, dice etc; and three should be enough to allow some changes in elevation.

[Agent Minivann]

Maybe a tourney style bracket layout would work. Put all the starting armies at the 1st round end and as you work toward the champion end, you encounter more armies to fight. It would still not be a tournament, but it may be a good map layout to keep things flowing.

[aaron444]

Here are some thoughts I have on playability. As has already been pointed out, the problem that needs to be overcome is one of being able to play small battles within the larger meta-world of battles without artificially breaking the larger world into smaller independent battles which, ultimately, defeats the purpose of the huge map. But then we also need to avoid large amounts of down time.

I’m sure there may need to be some tweaks, but my thoughts are as follows:

Take X number of tables and build your terrain with three starting zones on each table. Each tables would constitute a territory. Each starting zone within the territory is labeled either A, B, or C. This results in X(3) total players, but only three groups of players (i.e. A players, B players, and C players).

Game play proceeds as follows:

1) Write the letter A, B, or C on three separate pieces of paper and put them in a hat.
2)At the beginning of each round every player places their order markers.
3)Then the Grandmaster (Revdyer) draws one piece of paper from the hat containing the lettered pieces of paper.
4) If letter A is drawn from the hat, then all the A players reveal their first order maker and take their turn. If there are two or more A players in a single territory they roll the twenty sided die to see who goes first.
5) After all movement and conflict is resolved, the Grandmaster again draws a letter from the hat. If letter C is drawn then all C players reveal their first order maker and take their turn. Again, if there are multiple C players in the territory than they use the twenty sided die to determine who goes first.
6) After all movement and conflict is resolved, it would now be the B players turn to reveal their first order markers and take their turn.
7) Play then continues in the same order for order markers 2 and 3 (i.e. A then C then B in this example)
8 ) After all three order markers have been utilized, then we return to step 1.

I think this has the following advantages:

1) Players may stay and battle in their original territory or not, it is up to them.
2) The huge game is not broken up into X number of independent games.
3) Down time shouldn’t be much longer than if one were just playing a three person game.
4) There may actually be an interesting meta-game produced, as one would need to begin to think about the strategic implications of entering and leaving a territory based on whether or not there are A, B or C players in them.

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts on how one could play a truly huge game of heroscape.

[Revdyer]

More good, interesting thoughts...thanks, people! Let's keep storming this along.

[spiderM9]

I like the tourney-tree setup idea. The idea of everyone marching toward the castle is pretty neat. Some complexities: advantage goes to those who race to the castle rather than those who do battle along the way. Maybe there is some way to strenghten your army at certain points, maybe a final river crossing where you can get a predetermined reinforcement. Who is defending the castle in the middle? Could be that players that get beaten on the way there flip sides for the final battle?

[Revdyer]

Excellent ideas, spiderM9. Thanks.

[JerBear]

Maybe to determine initiative for each round:

Give everyone a card #1-40. For each round the grandmaster will roll to determine the starting number. Then, roll to determine, clockwise, counter clockwise, odds-then-evens or evens then odds. That randomizes what order people will work in, but you can do separate skirmishes individually, and also kep track when you have to integrate.

I would stay away from the 2 large teams. I think if you are going to have such a large event, at the end of the day you should have a king. Serious bragging rights.

I think you pretty much have to limit Saylind in some manner or who is fighting whom will get very convoluted and rounds will take forever.

[jcb231]

Aw, stop being such a party pooper, Reaps.Look, I LOVE the creativeness and boundless energy and attitude this idea represents more than the next guy.

But it simply cannot work as one large map/world.

Reason: already stated.


Ya know Reap, I used to hate you, but you've grown on me, and I really like having you here now.

That said, I gotta throw it out there that I really dislike when you slam out these statements....it can work, just not the way YOU want it to, apparently. I think a huge game would be a blast, and I'm sure there's a lot of others that agree. It just doesn't work for you. Which is cool, but don't throw your opinions out there like inarguable fact.

[jcb231]

Order Markers - How will that work with that many participants? It might work better starting with mini 1 v 1 battles (contained on the huge map) for a predetermined amount of rounds to thin out the armies. During this time, you could not attack units that were not a part of your current battle. If some battles blaze through the "X" amount of rounds faster than others, they can walk around and watch other battles until everybody has caught up. After that, the game could continue on depending on Team or Freeforall format.


Mini-battles are not the way to go. It's gotta be a huge battle. For order markers, I suggest the fairly common (at least round these parts) big game variant, where players move with one "1" and move and attack with the other "1" and then continue on through the numbers. The "X" is the wild card and can sub out as a full turn for any numbered marker at any time.

Alternatively, you could have each player just take two or even three full turns per round....give them three number "1" three number "2" etc.

As for moving around the map quickly....I think that defeats the whole purpose of the large map. If you can get across it lickety split, why not just play on a small map. I think the sense of travel is somewhat needed.

That said, I would like to see activateable teleports. Think of them like the gates in "Fable" for XBOX. A player has to step on the glyph, flip it over, and then they can use it to teleport to any glyph they've been to already....little colored flags for each player could mark the glyphs they've activated. It encourages old-fashioned exploration of the huge map, giving some benefit to players that travel widely.

Regular roads could be criss-crossed around the map in realistic ways, speeding foot traffic a bit. Castle walls could be used the same way.


Marking of figures - Pretty much a necessity to sort every thing out in the end. It might be confusing during actual game place to tell people's units apart (think 10 different armies of Orcs) unless everyone has painted the bases different colors or some similar markings...


I'm of the mindset that it would be much much cooler to do a pre-game online draft. Get together in the chat room and have a leader control the draft, and each player announce their picks.

It would add a bit of fanfare. Sort of like a pro sports draft. Some excitement. You could limit the drafting pool to only one of each unique, to really build the tension and get the rivalries going early.

If a draft was done, no marking of figures would be needed.


As for the map.....
I think a huge map should really showcase all the terrain possibilites of the HS world. EVERY type of terrain feature should be included, no exceptions. Bridges, walls, every type of tree, water, deep water, lava, castles, etc etc. Use every feature in every possible way, giving the map an unheard of variety of locales. There should be an artic region, a volcanic region, a ruined city, a bustling castle and outpost towers, a roaring river, a lake with an island, snow-capped mountains, etc etc. It should really feel like a whole world. It should NOT be designed piecemeal and stuck together. The whole thing should be designed by one person or group of people as a huge map that is just a huge map, not a huge map made of small maps. Plan the map out ahead of time in landscape or a similar method. Have players build certain features ahead of time as needed, but according to the plan....do not just give every player license to build whatever they want and then slam them into a map. That has potential for disaster, or at least a lot of replanning.

As a final note about the map, keep in mind that the tables can be two wide, folks, when making your diagrams. A person can reach across one full table width, so they could reach to the center of a two-wide section.

[CornPuff]

Aw, stop being such a party pooper, Reaps.
Well, LOTS of good ideas so far (thank you all) and some much needed reality too (thanks, reaper, sincerely, thanks).

I just want to make it clear that I also enjoy the company of the Reaper. His knowledge of the game is spot on, and the opinions he voices are always worth hearing, whether you like it or not :P.
In fact, maybe we should make him the mega HS reality consultant so he can audit our ideas :twisted:

This post may be a little overcautious, but I've learned that being clear about your statements pays off in the end. :)

[CornPuff]

Goals for the Mega HS:
1. Throw the largest game of Heroscape ever
2. Make a the largest contuguous map
3. Have 'themed' areas to show off all the terrain peices and environment ideas
4. Have all the players in the same game on the same map
5. Modify the rules as little as possible, keeping the game as fun as possible
6. Make sure that if someone gets eliminated in the first hour, that they have something fun to do for the next 35.
7. Keep track of who brought what, and who controls what.
8. FUN! everyone should have fun during the game, and feel good about the whole experience when they leave!


I figure these can be used to outline the problem. Did I miss anything?

[reapersaurus]

Thanks for saving me from feeling the need to re-quote Rev's comments, CornPuff.

jcb - my statements were proven correct the instant Rev said "I absolutely don't want people waiting 40 turns between their turns," because that's what HS rules are.

If anyone wants to thik up alternate rules to accomodate this huge map idea, be my guest. Go to town. Be creative, but keep in mind how the gameplay would be. Many superficially-cool ideas wouldn't actually be good IN PLAY.

Good luck, I'll check back next year. :thumbsup:

[jcb231]

Thanks for saving me from feeling the need to re-quote Rev's comments, CornPuff.

jcb - my statements were proven correct the instant Rev said "I absolutely don't want people waiting 40 turns between their turns," because that's what HS rules are.

If anyone wants to thik up alternate rules to accomodate this huge map idea, be my guest. Go to town. Be creative, but keep in mind how the gameplay would be. Many superficially-cool ideas wouldn't actually be good IN PLAY.

Good luck, I'll check back next year. :thumbsup:

See, this is exactly my point....your views are not "correct" they are just YOUR OPINION. Your opinion is shared by some, not by others. It is not something you can be "correct" about, as it is a matter of taste.

That's my point.

I love ya Reaps, but it bugs the hell out of me when you do that.

[CornPuff]

*sigh

Alright! Its back on topic time!

So, I think simultaneous action is the only way to go. For Simultaneous action to really work, I think you need teams. A Simultaneous Action (SA) game with 2 teams should play about as fast as a game between 2 players. A SA game between 5 teams should play roughly as fast as a 5 player game.

For SA to work, their needs to be the game moderator in the lifeguard chair shouting out: "Blue team reveal second order marker and move your figures!"

There are some problems, actually, just annoyances. First is bonding. Technically, if you have a bonded unit, you are taking 2 turns for one order marker. Say you have Drake, and your teammate has Sacred Band and Parmenio; order markers are on Sacred Band and Drake.

When the mod calls out reveal and move, you will move drake, your ally will move Parmenio. Mod calls attack: Drake attacks, Parmenio Attacks. Mod Calls out Frenzy and Bonding Move: Drake does nothing, Sacred Band moves, then attacks next phase.

Problem with SA: There could be a lot of Synchronization problems. This could be solved with some rigorous military chatter "Red 05 to Red Leader, We have rolled a second Frenzy, commencing 3rd turn on your mark" or maybe some sort of jury rigged electronic system. Everyone could have a some lights indicating their state, (ready to attack, ready to frenzy, something like that)

THese problems only get bad when the teams are large, if each team is only 4-6 people, we could probably communicate without to much vigor.

So, if the Rev wants 40 people, I'd reccomend 8 teams of 5, or maybe 5 teams of 8. We still have to decide on a scenario. Im thinking that maybe we should play with 5 teams and teh alliance system like magic. Every team will have 2 allies and 2 enemies. By eliminating the last figure of your enemies, you win.

I think the m:tg->HS alliance mapping has been discussed. We concluded that they weren't the same, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make a fun game.

Jandar doesn't like Utgar or Einar
Ullar doesn't like Utgar or Vydar
Einar doesn't like Jandar or Vydar
Vydar doesn't like Utgar or Einar
Utgar doesn't like Jandar or Ullar

So, 5 teams, one for each general. When your team's eneimies are smote, you win. We could also have each team start in their 'terrain'.

Jandar gets Ice
Utgar gets fire
Vydar gets swamps
Ullar gets trees
Einar gets roads and plains

Discuss!

[Agent Minivann]

CornPuff, I like the general thing in principle, but I don't like how it would limit army building. I think that if we would use a generals and alliances thing, the generals should be just monikers and not draft/build limiters.

Something that just occured to me, if the megagame goes from one side to the other that has a built in advantage of giving a premade map that is not in use anymore to the early exits. Once the first few armies are eliminated, they can more to the initial parts of the map where there isn't going to be any more action and they can start up smaller games. Kind of a built in activity for the ones that aren't going to be in the megagame any longer.

[jcb231]

What happens if the battle moves back to those areas?

[Nooblar]

I like your idea, Agent Minivann, and the shifting battle problem may actually be solved by making the central castle (or mountain) the resting place of some powerful glyph or goal. This could make it desirable to leave the outlying parts of the map and make one's way to the center.

Or you could even do the opposite: place small outposts at the edges so that a player must decide whether to take the central castle (in the giant melee) or the small outpost (far from the action, but a much safer bet). I can see special scenario rules where each outpost castle adds a different bonus to the team.

Well, it's probably too early to discuss scenario rules, but we definitely need to get the order marker thing hammered out. Like I said before, I firmly support the Simultaneous Action with Teams (SAT) idea. Bringing the action down to one individual winner probably won't work--even getting the game to work with teams will take a nice piece of planning. And it's less fun to see a single player boasting his mAd SKILLZ than to congratulate your team mates on their great strategy.

Definitely go SAT. It simplifies the requirements for altering the rules, and the synchronization can be preserved by having every team report back via a team leader to the officials at the event.

[Revdyer]

One possible way to deal with the "outer" maps segments after they have been played is to have them, literally, "fall off the face of the earth," removing them from the game. That would solve the problem of going back to them. And if you said something like "In four turns the outer maps are disappearing, if you have figures on them, they will die." it would certainly speed up the exit from those areas!

[jcb231]

What if there were castles, ruins, bridges, and other key points scattered around the map, each with a face-up glyph? By holding those points, you get the power...further encouraging exploration, on top of my teleporter gate idea (see above posts).

[Agent Minivann]

I think the issue of revisiting old areas would be solved by an appropriate incentive to not be there. Falling off the edge of the world works. I'd think that it would be incentive enough to keep your army more or less together that would be decent incentive. Maybe if the army automatically respawns into a second starting area, but that would seem a little hokey for something like this. Probably something simple like a castle to attack/defend at the one end. I would think that in this kind of epic battle the parts of the map that are left vacant would hold little incentive to be revisited.

Maybe I'm overcomplicating things with this one, but what about a halo/ringworld style of map? It might not work logistically, as it would require a 2 table by 20 table or 1 table by 40 table layout. Basically a long map that wraps one end to the other. I mentioned it in the haloscape thread.

[Revdyer]

Of course, what I really want is a magnetized HeroScape played on an infinite Moebius strip in zero G! 8)

[jcb231]

If the map was huge, the temptation to retreat to an empty area and fortify could be kind of strong, depending on how your advance was going. If it wasn't going well, you'd want to turtle a bit and let the others duke it out, then pick off the stragglers. That would be why you'd move your forces away from the action and set up a base camp elsewhere.

[CornPuff]

There is the fundamental problem of pacing.
In a smaller game, your enemy is usually not more than 30 hexes from your start zone. Make that distance too big, and you get travelscape.

So, we should set up opposing start zones for most players that are not more than 30 hexes apart, and I like the idea of having few glyphs on the board, maybe one per area. For instance the Ice area would be tied to the defense glyph. HLD zone would have the attack glyph and so on.

You might want to set it up so that for forces to have their first combat in a non glyph zone. These non glyph zones would eventually fall off the map... The glyph zones would be central to combat.

Maybe the game could cumliminate with a sort of capture the flag scenario, where each tema has their own fortress.

Also, we should all keep in mind that wave 5, and maybe wave 6 should be available by the time of Mega HS. Also, some custom units such as seige units might work well...

[Agent Minivann]

Something that I thought of to add some flavor to the mega HS game would be to have Brandar glyphs peppered generously around the map. When someone gets to one they collect it and score a point. That way it encourages movement from start to finish. Maybe as the armies get toward the end of the map, there are more glyphs to collect. Maybe have some sort of limit on gathering glyphs, so the amazingly lucky guy that keeps rolling frenzy won't grab a huge number of glyphs without ever attempting to attack. OR have other things that award points, so the glyphs are more of a tie breaker than way of choosing an outright winner.

Brandar glyphs could also be tied into summoning the rest of the army to a starting zone in that area. Either nearby, or after a number of turns so if someone else was vying for that glyph and failed he wouldn't be staring down four times his points in army the next turn. I think that would be a good check against becoming a game of travelscape.

Oh, Rev, I hate to rain on your parade, but the moebius strip thing wouldn't work because the tiles are too rigid. Unless you made the thing so huge that the curve is accomplished with the gap between the tiles. That would take a lot more than 120 Master Sets. :shock:

[Revdyer]

<back from a few days away>

Thanks, Agent, for the info about the non-flexibility of the hexs. Maybe I'll go for the giant, gently curving strip <grin>.

[jcb231]

I vote that no customs should be allowed in a game like this. Folks are going to have enough new elements to get used to without having the unfair advantage of somebody's custom figures showing up. Other folks won't all be used to whatver the customizer brings, and I think somewhere the line needs to be drawn as to what is allowed to be used....it shouldn't be some of this and some of that....just lay down the law at "no customs" to be totally fair.

[Pilgrim]

Hey Rev,

Here's a link to a game system I developed for play a single, massive multiplayer game. We played 8 vs 8 on a 3ft X 16ft board.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=1652

When I have time I can fill you in more on specifics of tables, MS's needed, etc.

[Revdyer]

Thank you, Pilgrim. When I get back off of study leave I'll seriously look into this. Much appreciated!