Army Card of The Week (ACotW) -Aug-12 to 19th: Blastatrons

[ultradoug]

Army Card Of The Week (ACotW)

Other fan fourms for card games typicaly have a card of the day (or click of the day for click games) so here is my take on this, others should review the given unit as they see fit.
_______________________________

Agent Carr. Tricky, Agent. Hight 5.
100 points, Human. 4 Life, 6 Range, 2 Attack, 4 Defence.

GHOST WALK
Agent Carr can move through all figures.

SWORD OF RECKONING 4
If Agent Carr is attacking an adjacent figure, add 4 dice to Agent Carr's attack.

DISENGAGE
Agent Carr is never attacked when leaving an engagement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Agent Carr has nothing that bonds with him, and gains no enhancements other then normal units can gain.
No "tricky" combos for him, His ablity to walk past not only your own units but your oppenents is helpfull
as you may pick your fight. His 2 attack is weak, and you might want to just toss him hand-to hand with his
mighty 6 attacking sword, but his weak health and defence make planing for what to do with him , tricky.

Perhaps the ideal use would be to `ping' your oppenents with his range, and then deside who to fight,
they can not (short of cyberclaw) stop you from going where you want.

100 points isn't too bad, but 1 more life would have been nice to see.

I give Carr 3/5 stars.

_______________

[netherspirit]

One would think in an Army Card of the Day thread you would have a picture of the Army Card. :shrug:

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10007/carr.jpg

[HokshilaTo]

Nice review, & I think, right on the money.

[spacemonkeymafia]

I like this idea.

i'm gonna say 3.5/5

his versatility is unmatched and I think, if he is not used as the brute strength of your army, he works amazingly well. I tend to hit and run with him as support until he needs to go toe to toe with a major unit. Too me, his life is fine, what I would rather see enhanced is his move- allowing to capitalize even more on his best traits- mobility. I see him as the assassin character. He was the closest thing to a "ninja" type character in HS until we see wave 5. Why I don't rate him higher is because, though he looks good in theory, I have yet to do well with him in the real game. Too bad though cause I really want to use him. Carr would reach Insano Hero level if some squad bonded with him.

[allskulls]

Good review, UD.

Marrden Hounds go good with Carr. Make your opponent choose to attack him or the hounds. Attacking Carr will leave you with the plague and fighting off the hounds means you must reckon with the sword of reckoning.

3/5

[hextr1p]

When I purchased my first Master Set, Agent Carr immendiately became my favorite unit. I love the fact that he has range AND a strong melee attack, above average defense, and the abiity to get out of the fray when he's in trouble (tricky agent). Since then, he has become a non-factor. He just has no synergy with other units in the game. While thematically I can see him working alone, in the game of Heroscape that just doesn't fly. I long for an official unit who is connected somehow to Agents, or units with a Tricky personality. Anything to bring a oneness to the Agents of Vydar, and allow Carr to find his way back into Valhalla... back into my heart!

:|

Okay, that last statement was a little much... sorry about that.

[allskulls]

Awww...how sweet. :D

[ultradoug]

netherspirit: thanks for posting the card :) I think I'll just have you be in charge of posting the cards from now on, thanks for volentering ;)
thanks everyone else for comments and reviews!
Look for next unit tommorow!

[ultradoug]

Todays acotd is my personal fav!

___________________________
Taelord the Kyrie Warrior "I don't cost that much "

180, Warror, 5 Move, 3 Attack, 3 Defence, Hight 5

Flying
When counting spaces for Taelord's movement, ignore elevations. Taelord may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins.

(Disengage included with flying.)
___

As a warror, he might gain some synogerys, but nope, Tae's only group that works with him is not true bonding, but rather an optional move with Tae vs with them (The Minons) However Tae works with anyone, giving all your units +1 attack, swarm can be helped, so can big baddies. The uberness of Marcus + 4th Line + Tae = all sorts of attack dice at range! Other insain attack bonus is possible. Is he worth the cost? Hard to say. I give Tae 3/5. Good, not great, sorry Tae maybe if you didn't cost that much. Also should be noted that Tae has disengage that might help... So, ok 3.5/5

OK OK TAE 10/5 cuss your Tae!

Attack Aura
All figures you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Taelord get +1 to attack. Taelord's Attack Aura does not affect Taelord.

[Revdyer]

Nice topic for a thread, ud. Thanks for setting it up.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h160/Revdyer/LittleJesus.jpgI don't cost that much either!

[Aranas]

Nice thread UD! Very interesting. Should be made AcotW in my opinion though (Army card of the Week) so more poeple will have the chance to comment.

[Jandars_Hope]

I think Taelord works well with the Minions of Utgar! He can give them an extra dice if in range allowing them to roll 3 dice, a potential of 6 attack! He is the only flying figure thus far with the ability to disengage!
I'm gonna give him 3.5/5!

[Roufus]

I'll give him a 2.75/5.
He tends to die a bit too easily.
Though he is versatile in the sense of giving pretty much everybody a better attack, and his disengange/flying thing is pretty good, he's just not tough enough.
-brownie points for avoiding talking about costs-

[feekonea]

Wow this thread has been a great Idea UD. I remember when the first MS was released, Carr was also my favorite character. Him and DW9k, man I loved thos guys, and strangely enough, I never use them anymore.

[fejkl]

Tae with Snipers + height rocks.

6 unblocked hits on Charos once from one Sniper.

[CornPuff]

Tae Rocks because he can enhance common units and ranged units, something that our good friend Finn has trouble with. I think Tae deserves his 10/5.... If you are playing defense with a more than 600 point team.

Best units to enhance with Tae? Snipers and minions, gotta love DS. Also he goes well with 4th line, because they are likely to stay in his aura. Syvarris and guilty also make wicked use of his aura due to their double attack.

Krug, despit double attack, doesnt work quite as well, because he has no trouble killing without his sweet tae, and is often in the middle of enemy territory.

Also, Kobu, are you out there? If someone wants to start posting the ACOTD thread on heroscape.org, we could soon have a nice little opinions on each fig right on the wiki.

[allskulls]

I only used Tae a couple of times and he worked well. He actually survived the battles! There is nothing like his attack aura, he is like a mobile glyph of Astrid.

3/5 (would be 4 but he costs too much)

[hextr1p]

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10007/taelord.jpg

I can't say I'm completely sold on Taelord. Especially in battles where draft cost is in the 400-500 range. Though even in larger battles, you can find more efficient ways to use 180 points.

When I first purchased Mallidon's Prophecy, I drafted him a couple times to boost the Snipers. Then when Utgar's Rage hit the shelves, I drafted him to see how he'd play with the Minions. In both cases he did help, but not enough to warrant a draft cost of 180. I do like the fact that with his 'Disengage Flying' ability, he can pull back in a melee battle while still allowing his bonus to affect the units still in the fray. But his 3 Attack and 3 Defense is lackluster for 180. Especially when you stack him next to Raelin!

Raelin's stats are the same as Tae's, except she has 6 Move as opposed to Tae's Move of 5. And being that it's tougher to roll good defense, I think her Defensive Aura is much more valuable than Tae's Attack Aura... yet she costs 100 points less!! If you can convince me that the ability to disengage is worth 100 points... well, I still wouldn't be sold on Tae at 180.

I score him a 1.80 out of 5.

[Snotwalker 8000]

Actually, I like the Card of the Day idea, but each card/day should have it's own topic thread... That way, the length of this thread won't end up reaching from here to the moon in a couple weeks, and it allows people more time to post comments/thoughts/strategies, etc...

AcotD: Carr
AcotD: Tae
etc.........................

Regarding Carr, yeah, I love that guy... however, I haven't drafted him in quite a while... (sigh)... He's a great sculpt, great abilities, but he's one of those few units who's value has regrettably dropped with the release of new expansions. 2 main reasons:

1) Without any chance of bonding yet, his value instantly decreased.

2) Compared to other similar cost heros, his "survivability" is rather low... as someone else mentioned, just one more life or one more D on his stats would have made a big difference.

However, for some maps, his Ghostwalk ability is HUGE. For example, any scenario or map with a single-lane bridge or similar chokepoint allows this guy to shine! I've tried holding bridges and passes before against opponents who brought up Carr, and his ability to walk right through my front line heavy infantry and attack my weaker support figs from behind has caused me great pain... Plus, having a combo of range attack AND awesome 6 strength melee attack allows him to take some valuable potshots, potentially weakening larger opponents, before going hand-to-hand.

I think Carr will see a major comeback with the release of the Castle set, in terms of Ghostwalking through heavily guarded, yet open/destroyed, fortress doors.

at this point: 3/5 stars. Once the Castle is IN THE STORES, I'd give him 4/5.

Regarding Tae:

Can't really complain. I think 180pts is about right. It all depends on how you use him. Offensively, If you play him with patience, taking the time needed to set him up in a strategic location, he rocks! If you're impatient and rush to engage the enemy, his ability will necessarily be wasted.

His 180 pt cost is best justified when he's used effectively with range attack units (snipers/4th Mass).... or with his cleaver pals, the minions.

Tae rating 4/5

"Compared to Jotun, I DON'T cost that much!" - Tae

SW8K

[HyperactiveSloth]

3 good ways to use Tae:

Tae + Snipers/Minutemen + height = raining death
Range 7 attacks of 3 with skulls doubled(Snipers)...ouch! Most squads and the majority of heroes even would be suicidal to approach this force. (I know who I'll be putting on my castle walls ;) )

Tae + Minions = flexible and unprecitable
True, Tae and 6 minions is an inefficient way to build a 400 point army, you just might want to try it sometime. There is something to be said about being able to put all your markers on one card and each turn decide who you want to have take those turns. No more planning ahead, no more having your opponent guess your next moves based on your marker placement. Ultimate set-up for tae's "hit-and-run".

Tae + Raelin + swarm
Need I say more? Tae gets more durability from Raelin, Raelin gets a little stronger attack against a figure trying to "engage-and-destroy" her. Surround them with a swarm to cooperatively boost and watch the carnage. The opponent basically has to decide which of them they're going to concentrate on taking out first, leaving the other one AND your swarms to obliterate the line-breaker. Army movement coordinating is the obvious downside to this arrangement, but not cripplingly so.


All of that being said, yes 180 IS ALOT to pay for him. We all know his weaknesses by now, just wanted tohighlight some strategic sstrengths.

Bottom line 3/5. 4/5 for usefullness, 1.5/5 for cost

[HyperactiveSloth]

Well, I'm going to go ahead and post for Carr too, since I didn't find this thread 'til today.

I have to agree with everything Snotwalker said. My opponents LOVE to play with Raelin ALL THE TIME! Hence, I always end up using either Carr or Drake to assasinate her. On boards where elevation and/or lots of ranged attack enemies are present, I go with Drake. In terrain where Drake's advantage is easily countered by the opponent having the ability to easily pin him down/engage him, CARR shines through! With a little careful examination of the opponent's markers and some good observation of the opponent's strategy, I've had Carr waltz right past the ENTIRE(literally, as in 5 strong heroes) enemy army and deliver a killing blow to the figure of my choice such as Raelin or a "swarm" booster.

In the end, he's a really versatile guy who could really use a little more LIFEliness, but when compared to themed units, he's a little weak.
I guess you could say he's the "anti-theme" unit. :)

4/5 I like versatility. Yeah, he's not any stronger from the rest of your army, but he's not any weaker when the rest of yuor army's destroyed, either. ;)

[Riggler]

3 good ways to use Tae:

Tae + Snipers/Minutemen + height = raining death
Range 7 attacks of 3 with skulls doubled(Snipers)...ouch! Most squads and the majority of heroes even would be suicidal to approach this force. (I know who I'll be putting on my castle walls ;) )

Make that 4 skulls doubled when you account for the top of castle walls will grant you two dice for height.With a height of 10 or more, you add 2 dice.

[yagyuninja]

Well, your base has to be 10 levels higher than the opponent's height to get the +2 attack. Basically your castle would have to be freaking huge to get a +2 versus Jotun.

[HyperactiveSloth]

Well, your base has to be 10 levels higher than the opponent's height to get the +2 attack. Basically your castle would have to be freaking huge to get a +2 versus Jotun.

When determining height advantage, you only go by the base. It doesn't matter how tall a figure is, just where they're standing.

[netherspirit]

Well, your base has to be 10 levels higher than the opponent's height to get the +2 attack. Basically your castle would have to be freaking huge to get a +2 versus Jotun.

When determining height advantage, you only go by the base. It doesn't matter how tall a figure is, just where they're standing.

Unless of course he is talking about Extreme Height Advantage, which it appears he is :)

[HyperactiveSloth]

Well, your base has to be 10 levels higher than the opponent's height to get the +2 attack. Basically your castle would have to be freaking huge to get a +2 versus Jotun.

When determining height advantage, you only go by the base. It doesn't matter how tall a figure is, just where they're standing.

Unless of course he is talking about Extreme Height Advantage, which it appears he is :)

ExtremaWhatamahoozit?!? Ow, my head hurts. *goes back to read the rules again*

[netherspirit]

Well, your base has to be 10 levels higher than the opponent's height to get the +2 attack. Basically your castle would have to be freaking huge to get a +2 versus Jotun.

When determining height advantage, you only go by the base. It doesn't matter how tall a figure is, just where they're standing.

Unless of course he is talking about Extreme Height Advantage, which it appears he is :)

ExtremaWhatamahoozit?!? Ow, my head hurts. *goes back to read the rules again*

Page 14 of the second edition rules, under Height Advantage.

2nd Edition Rulebook (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=432)

[jcb231]

This is exactly the sort of thing that should be a sidebar on the front page each day (or maybe once a week). And everyone can comment on it there.

[monkeyfish]

To get height advantage with my ranged units I like to stack single tiles up to 24 spaces or higher-it falls down alot. :(

[HyperactiveSloth]

To get height advantage with my ranged units I like to stack single tiles up to 24 spaces or higher-it falls down alot. :(


LANDSLIDE!!!!!!!!
:o

[Roufus]

I think Carr is undercosted, though I seem to be ALONE in that assesment.

[jcb231]

I like Carr, but he does need something to help him....bonding would be kin of been there done that...I'd hope for something more original.

[Revdyer]

I like Carr, but he does need something to help him....bonding would be kin of been there done that...I'd hope for something more original.

If you got terrain asphalt from MarvelScape and said that Carr could move even more hexes when on it, would that make him a "street Carr"? And then, if he fell in love with the Ninja woman, would that make him "a street Carr named desire"?

[Roufus]

Holy crap that was funny.

[allskulls]

If you got terrain asphalt from MarvelScape and said that Carr could move even more hexes when on it, would that make him a "street Carr"? And then, if he fell in love with the Ninja woman, would that make him "a street Carr named desire"?
Only if the Ninja woman's name was Stella.

[hextr1p]

Okay, it's been a couple of days since the ACOTD was updated, so I thought I'd throw one into the mix to freshen things up a bit...

:: ME-BURQ-SA ::
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10007/normal_meburqsa.jpg (http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/default.cfm?page=character-new&char_id=31)
(click image for official character page)

Fast. Versatile in that he can move all over the place and has decent range. He's a Warlord, so he fits with many army types. His Paralyzing Stare is deadly when the d20 rolls are working. My gripe is his 3 Life and low defense. But for 50 points, I can't gripe much. His sculpt is awesome in that he is the only horse mounted unit. And said marro horse brings to mind visions of the riders of the Apocolypse.

I give him a 3.5/5

Discuss.

EDIT: Oops... I meant the only horse mounted unit... thanks for pointing that out, Aranas.

[Aranas]

...His sculpt is awesome in that he is the only mounted unit.
You are forgetting SB-Na, Tornak, Swog, Grimnak and Nerak.

I do like Me-Burq-Sa. Your analysis very is good.

[Bannister]

I am a fan of Me-Burq-Sa. He is cheap and with a move of 8 and a range of 6 he can usually take the attack to your opponent from his first turn. Give me some roads to make him even faster and he is a first round move for me for sure.

With only 3 Life, he isn't someone I count on to stick around for me, but he is definitely an early round pawn.

Bannister

[allskulls]

I really like Me-Burq-Sa on paper, but he hasn't done much for me (haven't played him too much either). I think his 3 life and defense, along with a double based large hit zone, makes him easy pickins. But a low costed warlord is a great pick and speed kills.

3/5

* As someone mentioned earlier, maybe there should be a different thread for each army card. Then we can have a rating poll for each.

[feekonea]

Way to step up hextr1p and doing an army card, Im sure UD wont mind. I was going to do that, but I think I have a wayyyy different perspective on some units than others do. Good analsys, hits the nail on the head for me.

[CornPuff]

I think you guys sell MBS short!
MBS is the cheapest warlord, enabling all sorts of roman madness.
MBS is the only bonded hero with range.
MBS has the highest base move of any unit. Its a tie with the Nerak, the swogs, and sometimes the hounds.
MBS has a threat range of 14! (8 move + 6 range). No one is safe!
MBS is the bane of defensive units. Sentinels, Minions and kravs should stay clear, because MBS can completely ruin your specials.
MBS is size large, meaning he don't take no crap from Braxas, Gladiatrons or DED.

Sure, MBS is frail. That shouldn't be a problem if you keep your ranged enemies engaged. Try some 3x Romans, Marcus and MBS for a tight 300 point squad. Don't bring in MBS as the early scout. Instead, run him in later when Marcus's team is in the fray. You should be able to keep him on high ground, taking out the enemies high D threats, or putting the hurt on enemy heroes like Marcus could only dream of.

I give him 4.5/5. I think an extra life or defense or 5 points cheaper would make him perfect.

[Snotwalker 8000]

I can't believe some of the low scores people are assigning to MBS! Only 3 out of 5 for some? Holy crap! What the heck more do you want for 50 points! :shock:

For his low low cost, I am amazed at how versatile he is.

1) He's very very fast (one of the fastest in the game),
2) has a ranged attack,
3) above average strength ranged attack at 3 dice,
4) has a GREAT special ability that can take down pesky defense units,
5) he's LARGE, which makes him immune to some special attacks,
6) he's a warlord, so can easily bond,
7) and he's one of the better sculpts to boot!
8 ) all for a lousy 50pts....

For me, I'd give him 5/5 for all of the above reasons. You can't go wrong with drafting this guy into ANY army and him still being effective with or without friendly synergy.

You gotta just love MBS.

(my two cents)

SW8K

[hextr1p]

Great MBS reviews by all!

And in UD's defense, he was travelling recently from TX to CA, so I'm sure he was a bit busy to find a way to post a new army card. ;)

[feekonea]

Great MBS reviews by all!

And in UD's defense, he was travelling recently from TX to CA, so I'm sure he was a bit busy to find a way to post a new army card. ;)

O yes, I know, I wasnt trying to attack UD or anything since he has not posted one..we understand. I saw the pics in the event forum. Just trying to say that since he has not been here, thanks for filling in his absence.

[Roufus]

I think he's definatly overlooked far too often, for the reasons cited by Cornpuff.
It's definatly fun to get some annoying blocker guys up front like the samurai or gladiatrons and have him sit back and maul on people. Not great stats except for the movement and range, but his cost/bonding ability makes him wonderfully useful.

[Agent Minivann]

Since UD is in transit, allow me to say this in honor of MBS as the AcotD:

Bar Be Que Sauce!

[hextr1p]

To change things up a bit... how about a squad?

:: 4th Massachusetts Line ::
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10007/normal_4thmass.jpg (http://www.hasbro.com/heroscape/default.cfm?page=character-new&char_id=37)
(click image for official squad page)

Met with mixed reviews when the squad's stats were first revealed, the 4th Mass has become a prominent squad in many armies. Get them up high, add a little "Wait then fire", in addition to Marcus... and you've got yourself four ranged attacks with a strength of 5! Add to this that they're a common squad for 70 points, they're often the squad with which to build an army around. Either to take advantage of their 'Valiant Defense' bonus with an all Valiant army, or to combine them with Marcus and a couple squads of Roman Legionaires. The important thing to remember (as with most all ranged units) is to keep them back until your melee squads tangle up your opponent, as their 2 Defense is dreadful when they're caught off-guard.

I've had a lot of success with this army, so my review may be a little bias. Regardless...

I give the 4th Massacre a 4/5.

[netherspirit]

Changed the title of the thread to relfect the ACotD, and the date.

I know this was mentioned before but should we make this Army Card of the Week? Or maybe, Army Card of the Every Other Day?

Anyways, 4th Mass rock my socks off. My friend drafted 4 of them against me awhile ago and it was painful, very very painful. Just going against 4 ranged attacks is a pain in the butt, but when its the 4th Mass, the are so easily boosted, its insane.

Good squad.

:star::star::star::star:.75 / :star::star::star::star::star:

[Roufus]

Being a squad of 4 with relatively good range, they can be quite a show stopper if played right. Not moving them to give them an extra attack definatly adds to the stratagy of the game. I personally use the 4th as 'Jotun killers'.
Spread them out, and let the giants or dragons take their time catching up with them under heavy sustained fire.
For more fun, play with mulitple squads.

4.5/5

[hextr1p]

Changed the title of the thread to relfect the ACotD, and the date.

I know this was mentioned before but should we make this Army Card of the Week? Or maybe, Army Card of the Every Other Day?
Thanks for the change. And I agree that this should be switched up to 'Army Card of the Week'. Otherwise, we'll tear through them all in no time.

Someone also mentioned (it may have been you) that this kind of discussion should be placed on the main page with a graphic link. It may be until after GenCon, but hopefully stuff like that will be added in the future to help bring even more cohesiveness to the main page and the forums.

[Bannister]

I love the 4th! If I am playing a defensive style where I am trying to hold something or trying to make my opponent(s) come to me these guys are in my army, usually atleast 2 squads of them.

These are the guys I will put on my castle walls.

Their low defense and movement restrictions keeps them out of most of my offensive minded armies but they are still one of my favorites.

4 out of 5.

Bannister

[allskulls]

I see the 4th's potential but haven't got much use since I only have 1 squad. When I did use them they got the job done but I know with multiples they would be all the better.

From my 1 squad: 3/5

Multiple squad potential: 4/5

Changed the title of the thread to relfect the ACotD, and the date.

I know this was mentioned before but should we make this Army Card of the Week? Or maybe, Army Card of the Every Other Day?
Thanks for the change. And I agree that this should be switched up to 'Army Card of the Week'. Otherwise, we'll tear through them all in no time.

Someone also mentioned (it may have been you) that this kind of discussion should be placed on the main page with a graphic link. It may be until after GenCon, but hopefully stuff like that will be added in the future to help bring even more cohesiveness to the main page and the forums.
And how about a thread for each card?
When we miss one, for whatever reason, it can easily be found. Plus it would be a good way to refference strategies and add new ones.

[netherspirit]

Changed the title of the thread to relfect the ACotD, and the date.

I know this was mentioned before but should we make this Army Card of the Week? Or maybe, Army Card of the Every Other Day?
Thanks for the change. And I agree that this should be switched up to 'Army Card of the Week'. Otherwise, we'll tear through them all in no time.

Someone also mentioned (it may have been you) that this kind of discussion should be placed on the main page with a graphic link. It may be until after GenCon, but hopefully stuff like that will be added in the future to help bring even more cohesiveness to the main page and the forums.

That is a pretty good idea. We will have to discuss that further, like you said after Gencon.

The Codex, ComicCon and Gencon have kind of trumped (rightfully so) everything else that was going on the front page. After GenCon and things calm down this could be a nice weekly feature.

[Turtleboy]

Back in the Day we use to do "Unit Spotlight : <unit name goes here>"

That way we could change it whenever instead of every day :)

Im glad to see this Thread back (thanks Ud) and id also like to say

4th mass get a 4 / 5 From Tb. Great units, awsome support from these guys. Plus they look cool!

[hextr1p]

And how about a thread for each card?
Yeah, that too.

[netherspirit]

And how about a thread for each card?
Yeah, that too.

Rather than having 76+ threads for this, we (meaning me or whoever created the thread or another admin) can just edit the first post with a running list of the cards and links to the first post with the new card.

[feekonea]

How does me burg sa get rated as a 5/5 and a 4.9/5 when this squad is only getting 4/5's (except for nether's)

1) common squad, that says a lot
2) only common squad that has 4 units in it and range
3) Easily Uprgadeable


The 4th mass are broken. They should not have been a common squad. How do we go through, what? 17 pages of trying to figure out how to be lilwis's army or 4th mass x5 and me burg sa? And still not suceed in being able to do it? they're the only common squad with range says a lot also, as many people think range rules the game. (I dont, but some people still do). They are also the only common squad with 4 units to the card, this will give you 4 attacks per turn, and thats going to be impossible to match, unless you have the 4th mass on your side, considering all of the other 4-person-ranged-squads are unique. They are also so easily upgradable its stupid. With marcus, the wait then fire, and the valiant army bonus, how can you not upgrade these guys? Ok Ive said what I wanted to say.

5/5 only broken unit in the game. possibly the krav too, but they're unique, and that holds them back too for when one whiffs on a roll. So I dont think they are quite broken.

edit: thank you sn8k

[allskulls]

And how about a thread for each card?
Yeah, that too.

Rather than having 76+ threads for this, we (meaning me or whoever created the thread or another admin) can just edit the first post with a running list of the cards and links to the first post with the new card.
That's understandable but I was thinking for future reference sake.
We get new members who can look up old strategies easy and add their own. A single thread, even with the first post list, will cause a lot of the write ups to get lost in the ever growing thread. I suppose a refference to pages next to the card can work but what about overlapping comments about different cards?

Also, 76+ threads can't be too bad since it will span well over a year's time.

I am not trying to be difficult here...just trying to give my .02 :D

[Aranas]

I made a similar suggestion a little while ago (22nd June):
Hello all,

A) Even though it is fun discussing about units on this board (as will always be), some people find it tiring that the same questions pop up again and again. Many of them were already answered before or are in the FAQ section of either HeroScapers.com or on Hasbro's site.
B) Many interesting threads go for many pages and the final conclusion is often diluted amidst the discussion posts.
C) Most people, newbies and veterans, do not always go through all this information before asking and/or before answering to a question.

So…

Reading the section “Tips and trics” on Hasbro’s site I had this idea . What about creating a new subsection in the "Official HS discussion" section which would be called Official units reference section. The already existing section would become "Discussion about official units". Inside this new section would be locked threads (No discussion there!), one for each and every official army card on the market. They would be made in a standard format beginning by the army card itself (the image of it). The rest of the content has to be discussed here beforehand. Here is a list of what I would like to find there:

-The official army card
-the wave it is related to
-the bio?
-HOW IT WORKS, incliding it’s special abilities and/or special attacks (ex. Drake can be affected by ranged Special attacks and abilities)
-Strategy notes
-Good against
-Countered by
-Combos
-Official FAQ released about this army card? (ex. Negating another Morsbane)
-Comparative stats? (ex. 6 attack dice – above average)
-Other math stuff related to this army card? (ex. how does deadly strike compare to regular attack. The best way to use Q9 attack dices)

The HOW IT WORKS part is of capital importance here. Many people ask question on this site because the wording on the cards sometimes leads to interpretations and/or because of basic reading skills (remember, the game is for eight years old kids) and/or non-english speaking players like me!

The more diagrams the better. Many Scapers on this site are very talented at that.

I no NOT have the time for this (see my sig. Also, english is not my first language so I would leave behind too many mistakes). Grab the idea and make it your own. Still, I do think it would be a very usefull section if people agree to put time and efforts in it. The work can easily be split between many board members and everyone here will help refining it by reading and proposing amendments. It would be a locked “work in progress” section; all discussion about it restricted to the other existing sections. No arguments, only official stuff.

So, sounds appealing? Comments? Volonteers?

Aranas
My suggestion was followed by a suggestion by Markwars:
I don't know if it would warrant a seperate forum, but I would love to have that kind of reference on hand.

I've often thought it would be cool to each week have one unit be the theme and talk about that unit for a solid seven days. At the end of the week you could codify it all together in one nice little PDF or whatever.

and then by funrun:
This is a good idea, but as bunjee mentioned, it is a huge undertaking. I currently do not have time to do all the set it up or to maintain it; I think it would need to be a collaborative effort. I think the admins need to discuss this one, I'll get back to you.
So, again, there is evidence that the interest is there. But maybe not now. In a month? After all the x'cons and the rush that will hit this place with the new castle and wave 5?

[Snotwalker 8000]

How does me burg sa get rated as a 5/5 and a 4.9/5 when this squad is only getting 4/5's (except for nether's)

1) common squad, that says a lot
2) only common squad with range
3) only common squad with 4 units
4) Easily Uprgadeable


The 4th mass are broken. They should not have been a common squad. How do we go through what? 17 pages of trying to figure out how to be lilwis's army or 4th mass x5 and me burg sa? And still not suceed in being able to do it? their only common squad with range says a lot also, as many people think range rules the game. (I dont, but some people still do). They are also the only common squad with 4 units to the card, this will give you 4 attacks per turn, and thats going to be impossible to match, unless you have the 4th mass on your side, considering all of the other 4-person-ranged-squads are unique. They are also so easily upgradable its stupid. With marcus, the wait then fire, and the valiant army bonus, how can you not upgrade these guys? Ok Ive said what I wanted to say.

5/5 only broken unit in the game. possibly the krav too, but they're unique, and that holds them back too for when one whiffs on a roll. So I dont think they are quite broken.

You might want to edit your post.... I think you meant to write that 4th mass are the only common ranged squad of 4, not the only common ranged unit, or the only common squad of 4....

But anyway, I agree with some of your assessments about these guys being great for oh so many reasons, BUT, I disagree in the view that they're broken.

They can be deadly on the field, sure, but it still depends on the terrain, the objective, the enemy army composition, etc... Plus, their defense is still very low, which gives them their achilles heel... and if you build an army with only all-valiant units in order to give them that +1D, then that severely limits their synergy potential... ie: no Marcus, no Romans, no Tae, etc....

The only units I'd possibly see as MAYBE being argued as broken are the Krav Maga, Raelin, and the AE.... again, just maybe....

But for my score on the 4th mass, for their point cost, being common, ranged, good bonus potential, being soldiers,.... I'd give them a 4.75 out of 5. Awesome, but not perfect.... Unlike MBS, who is perfect for his cost...

SW8K

[feekonea]

How does me burg sa get rated as a 5/5 and a 4.9/5 when this squad is only getting 4/5's (except for nether's)

1) common squad, that says a lot
2) only common squad with range
3) only common squad with 4 units
4) Easily Uprgadeable


The 4th mass are broken. They should not have been a common squad. How do we go through what? 17 pages of trying to figure out how to be lilwis's army or 4th mass x5 and me burg sa? And still not suceed in being able to do it? their only common squad with range says a lot also, as many people think range rules the game. (I dont, but some people still do). They are also the only common squad with 4 units to the card, this will give you 4 attacks per turn, and thats going to be impossible to match, unless you have the 4th mass on your side, considering all of the other 4-person-ranged-squads are unique. They are also so easily upgradable its stupid. With marcus, the wait then fire, and the valiant army bonus, how can you not upgrade these guys? Ok Ive said what I wanted to say.

5/5 only broken unit in the game. possibly the krav too, but they're unique, and that holds them back too for when one whiffs on a roll. So I dont think they are quite broken.

You might want to edit your post.... I think you meant to write that 4th mass are the only common ranged squad of 4, not the only common ranged unit, or the only common squad of 4....

But anyway, I agree with some of your assessments about these guys being great for oh so many reasons, BUT, I disagree in the view that they're broken.

They can be deadly on the field, sure, but it still depends on the terrain, the objective, the enemy army composition, etc... Plus, their defense is still very low, which gives them their achilles heel... and if you build an army with only all-valiant units in order to give them that +1D, then that severely limits their synergy potential... ie: no Marcus, no Romans, no Tae, etc....

The only units I'd possibly see as MAYBE being argued as broken are the Krav Maga, Raelin, and the AE.... again, just maybe....

But for my score on the 4th mass, for their point cost, being common, ranged, good bonus potential, being soldiers,.... I'd give them a 4.75 out of 5. Awesome, but not perfect.... Unlike MBS, who is perfect for his cost...

SW8K

But as long as you make sure marcus and the romans die first, then they can get that valiant upgrade. So it should work out. I just dont think that they are not broken, even though they have aweak defense their should be so many of themthat it shouldnt matter, and they should almost always be able tol shoot you down before you can hit 2 of em. Their I just no one in the game of heroscape yet that can match their firepower.

:johnwoo2: :johnwoo2: :johnwoo2: :johnwoo2: :pray:

[Marsman]

I'm not convinced of the brokeness of this unit. Mabye I'm not using them right, but they are easily destroyed. Come on, 3 order markers on Braxas, Orc armies, ect.

3/5

[feekonea]

I'm not convinced of the brokeness of this unit. Mabye I'm not using them right, but they are easily destroyed. Come on, 3 order markers on Braxas, Orc armies, ect.

3/5

Ive tried both...braxas tok down six of my 12, the orc armies finished off about half of the army. Both didnt work, maybe ill try it on a different map next time.

[CornPuff]

I only have 2 of this squad, and in those numbers, they are easily defeated. Heck, I've seen Nilf take out 2 cornered squads and hardly get scratched. Boy was that a slaughter....

Their biggest weakness is range.If you outrange them, you can force them to sacrifice 'Wait then Fire', Marcus's Aura, and perhaps high ground. DED is an excellent counter to them.

Now that we have Microcorps, Arrow Gruts, Aubrien Archers and Gorillinators, they have some competition in the common arena.

On the other hand, they are highly flexible. In army construction, you get the option of going down the Valiant or the Soldier path, and in combat you get teh decision of rooting for added firepower or moving to high ground. Anytime you get to make tough decisions, its gameplay and it fun!

Pros - flexible, 4 common dudes with range, wait then fire for added zing
cons -need at least 3 squads to be awesome, Need expensive 'add ons' like marcus to make them reach their potential, mediocre range

3.5 out of 5

[reapersaurus]

I've been waiting for something really meaty to join this thread.

I firmly believe the 4th Mass are broken. I agree with that sentiment. At the very least, they are a power-imbalance in the current HS metagame.

I called their power since before they came out, and I will re-iterate the reasons why they are the strongest ranged squad in the game.

They commonly get 4 attack dice, with height.
They are common.
They have 4 figures.
They are dirt cheap (17.5 points per soldier).

There is simply no good strategy against them. The previous poster is right - the "lilwis' army" thread has been talking forever about it, and there are simply no good options. They can, and will, take out more than their share of points, even before you can kill 1 of them off. Then another will come from the back.

If a big hero comes up against them, there is no hero yet that can take out even his points' worth.
Even with Drake getting first strike, all the have to do is sit there, wait for him to take out one, then pepper him to death when he's adjacent. Even if he gets 2, or even 3 dead - he doesn;t come close to taking out 110 points worth.

THAT is a strong squad.

Too strong.

[feekonea]

I've been waiting for something really meaty to join this thread.

I firmly believe the 4th Mass are broken. I agree with that sentiment. At the very least, they are a power-imbalance in the current HS metagame.

I called their power since before they came out, and I will re-iterate the reasons why they are the strongest ranged squad in the game.

They commonly get 4 attack dice, with height.
They are common.
They have 4 figures.
They are dirt cheap (17.5 points per soldier).

There is simply no good strategy against them. The previous poster is right - the "lilwis' army" thread has been talking forever about it, and there are simply no good options. They can, and will, take out more than their share of points, even before you can kill 1 of them off. Then another will come from the back.

If a big hero comes up against them, there is no hero yet that can take out even his points' worth.
Even with Drake getting first strike, all the have to do is sit there, wait for him to take out one, then pepper him to death when he's adjacent. Even if he gets 2, or even 3 dead - he doesn;t come close to taking out 110 points worth.

THAT is a strong squad.

Too strong.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmmmeeennn.

[Su_Nan]

Wouldn't the vipers and or the aubrien archers be able to take out hundreds of the 4th mass if they rolled as many consecutive frenzies in a row?

The 4th mass wouldnt even get the chance to move.

[reapersaurus]

Wouldn't the vipers and or the aubrien archers be able to take out hundreds of the 4th mass if they rolled as many consecutive frenzies in a row?

The 4th mass wouldnt even get the chance to move.:unsure:

[feekonea]

Wouldn't the vipers and or the aubrien archers be able to take out hundreds of the 4th mass if they rolled as many consecutive frenzies in a row?

The 4th mass wouldnt even get the chance to move.

yes, but how many frenzies in a row do you think would ittake to destroy hundreds of fourth mass, probably about 150 frenzies. Next time you roll 150 frenzies in a row come and tell me. :wink:

[Su_Nan]

Wouldn't the vipers and or the aubrien archers be able to take out hundreds of the 4th mass if they rolled as many consecutive frenzies in a row?

The 4th mass wouldnt even get the chance to move.

yes, but how many frenzies in a row do you think would ittake to destroy hundreds of fourth mass, probably about 150 frenzies. Next time you roll 150 frenzies in a row come and tell me. :wink:

I'll be playing the lottery first :mrgreen:

[player_of_volleyball]

i wish i had the 4th mass so i could talk about how good they are. :oops:

[feekonea]

Wouldn't the vipers and or the aubrien archers be able to take out hundreds of the 4th mass if they rolled as many consecutive frenzies in a row?

The 4th mass wouldnt even get the chance to move.

yes, but how many frenzies in a row do you think would ittake to destroy hundreds of fourth mass, probably about 150 frenzies. Next time you roll 150 frenzies in a row come and tell me. :wink:

I'll be playing the lottery first :mrgreen:

:D You know Ive never lost @ the lottery...cuz Ive never played. :D Whoa POF, you need to have @ least 2 squads of 4th mass, definetly.

[player_of_volleyball]

yea but i can never find them anywhere. I can never find small expansions here in VA. I might find them once in awhile but that is it.

[feekonea]

Might wanna try house mouse.

[player_of_volleyball]

yea but her shipping is too expensive to VA. I only want a few sets and the shipping would kill me. To get the newest hero set it shipping would be $10 plus the $20 for the set itself. Keep in mind that im 15 and a job that, well long story about that.

[feekonea]

Oh, hmmmm I guess I cant help you there, unless you want to save up and spend $150+ on heroscape

[player_of_volleyball]

yea well i was thinkin about that and i was like ummm NOPE. Maybe me and my bro could save up and pay together. I cant just spend $150 at one time. I have other things that i need that money for.

[feekonea]

Oh well that might work...by the way, get rid of that sig. :wink: :D

[CornPuff]

This entire page has been hijacked! Back to talking about the mass.

What about their move? On most maps their are glyphs in the middle. The 4th mass mass isn't built for moving across the map in large numbers. Sure, in a defense scenario they own, but when they have to assault, they are far from broken. 2 defense, 2 attack when they are charging uphill. Hell, thats comparable to orc archers next to their loving swog.

Maybe I'll have to proxy this mass mass thing to see it for myself, but I thought several viable alternatives were posted in the lilwis thread. Notably units that outrange them, and the marro drones.

[player_of_volleyball]

by the way, get rid of that sig. :wink: :D

NEVER!!!!!!!!!!

ok done spaming.



still wish i had the 4th mass

[Roufus]

DUDE! I just rolled 150 frenzies in a row!
Granted it was trick dice...
...and the only reason I stopped rolling them is because the dice fell down the drain in the sink.
BUT I DID IT!
:neener: :P

[feekonea]

DUDE! I just rolled 150 frenzies in a row!
Granted it was trick dice...
...and the only reason I stopped rolling them is because the dice fell down the drain in the sink.
BUT I DID IT!
:neener: :P



:excited: :wtf!: :up: ugh... you got me.

[Bannister]

I got my a$$ handed to me last night by 2 squads of 4th Mass. My opponent built his army around them and took full advantage of their valiant bonus and wait then fire when he could.

I had units that out ranged them, but my A & D rolls sucked like never before.

Ah well, win some, lose some. But don't underestimate the 4th.

Bannister

[Snotwalker 8000]

How does me burg sa get rated as a 5/5 and a 4.9/5 when this squad is only getting 4/5's (except for nether's)

1) common squad, that says a lot
2) only common squad with range
3) only common squad with 4 units
4) Easily Uprgadeable


The 4th mass are broken. They should not have been a common squad. How do we go through what? 17 pages of trying to figure out how to be lilwis's army or 4th mass x5 and me burg sa? And still not suceed in being able to do it? their only common squad with range says a lot also, as many people think range rules the game. (I dont, but some people still do). They are also the only common squad with 4 units to the card, this will give you 4 attacks per turn, and thats going to be impossible to match, unless you have the 4th mass on your side, considering all of the other 4-person-ranged-squads are unique. They are also so easily upgradable its stupid. With marcus, the wait then fire, and the valiant army bonus, how can you not upgrade these guys? Ok Ive said what I wanted to say.

5/5 only broken unit in the game. possibly the krav too, but they're unique, and that holds them back too for when one whiffs on a roll. So I dont think they are quite broken.

You might want to edit your post.... I think you meant to write that 4th mass are the only common ranged squad of 4, not the only common ranged unit, or the only common squad of 4....

But anyway, I agree with some of your assessments about these guys being great for oh so many reasons, BUT, I disagree in the view that they're broken.

They can be deadly on the field, sure, but it still depends on the terrain, the objective, the enemy army composition, etc... Plus, their defense is still very low, which gives them their achilles heel... and if you build an army with only all-valiant units in order to give them that +1D, then that severely limits their synergy potential... ie: no Marcus, no Romans, no Tae, etc....

The only units I'd possibly see as MAYBE being argued as broken are the Krav Maga, Raelin, and the AE.... again, just maybe....

But for my score on the 4th mass, for their point cost, being common, ranged, good bonus potential, being soldiers,.... I'd give them a 4.75 out of 5. Awesome, but not perfect.... Unlike MBS, who is perfect for his cost...

SW8K

But as long as you make sure marcus and the romans die first, then they can get that valiant upgrade. So it should work out. I just dont think that they are not broken, even though they have aweak defense their should be so many of themthat it shouldnt matter, and they should almost always be able tol shoot you down before you can hit 2 of em. Their I just no one in the game of heroscape yet that can match their firepower.

:johnwoo2: :johnwoo2: :johnwoo2: :johnwoo2: :pray:

Ah, but that's so easy to avoid... If my opponent has a mass of 4th Mass, and one or two legionnaires left on the field, hence denying the 4th Mass their cherished +1 All-Valliant defense bonus, then I simply avoid killing those weak, left-over 1 or two Romans... Face it, if you only have 1 or two legionnaires left, and their general is dead, there's no reason to put order markers on him/them anymore, so they become non-issues... unless you want to spend turns moving in your 4th mass and trying to kill your own legionnaires yourself... which then allows me to have more time to be killing your 4th Mass....

Either way, starting a battle with non-valliant units effectively negates the +1D for the 4th Mass, unless you spend time and points killing your own non-valliant units later in the game, which probably will hurt you more than help you in the long run...

But I'm reserving judgement at this time on how the 4th Mass will be viewed once the fortress is in the stores... Having 2+ units of Minutemen high up on a wall defending may prove to be one tough nut to crack. Unless Dead Eye Dan happens to be in the assaulting army.... Or Q9.... or Sylvaris... heck, I suppose any unit with 7+ ranged attacks... so there you go... even on a castle wall, the 4th Mass aren't necessarily broken... tough, but not broken.

[CornPuff]

This may be a specific counter, but I do believe Gorillinators beat out the 4th mass point for point on even ground, just FYI.

http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/matchup.pl

[ultradoug]

wow... I've missed this.
woops.
anyway:
_____________________
ME-BURQ-SA

Marro
Unique Hero
Warlord
Wild
Large 7

Move 8
Range 6
Attack 3
Defense 3
Points 50

PARALYZING STARE 16

After moving and before attacking, choose any small or medium figure within 6 clear site spaces of Me-Burq-Sa. Roll the
20-sided die. If you roll 16 or higher, the chosen figure cannot roll any defense dice if attacked by Me-Burq-Sa this turn.

Combos With Roman Legionnaires, extra points there. Bonding is always nice.

ME-BURQ-SA or "BBQ sause" suffers from low life, and he promices more then he effectivly delivers, I've only gotten the shot off twice if I'm lucky, but for 50 points you can't really say `no' to him, sometimes he works, sometimes he does not.
I don't feel he is a perfect unit, one more defence, and he would be mighty. 4/5 here

[Riggler]

ME-BURQ-SA

Marro
Unique Hero
Warlord
Wild
Large 7

Move 8
Range 6
Attack 3
Defense 3
Points 50

PARALYZING STARE 16


Cheap ranged hero with fantastic movement. You just don't find that kind of movement with the other cheap ranged hero. Even with a range of just 6 he can strike targets farther away than the cowboys because of movement. His stare works 1 in 4 times on small and medium.

He shines against medium heros. And he's a fantastic selection for your army if you think you'll be facing Braxas. Not many units for under 100 points to counter a Braxas led opposition.

All this said, his low life and low defense is his weakness, but what do you expect for 50.

4 out of 5 A good solid hero for the value.

[Riggler]

I underestimated the 4th Mass early on, when they first entered the group we played with (there was only 1 unit).

The first time someone played 2 units it was in a three player game and both me and the other poor sap were laughing until we got lit up.

I gained respect for them, but I don't believe they are so mighty as to say they are broken. I can think of several counters for them.

Putting them atop the castle does give me some major concerns. They are the PERFECT unit for the castle set. And that does negate some of the counters I've thought up for a 4th Mass onslaught.

Their weakness is that they are medium. And they can be outranged. If you see a 4th Mass army coming your way it can be countered by several different methods depending on the terrain.

One of the best counters may be what was mentioned in another thread: Saylind, Kelda and big tough guy.

I'd give them a 4 out of 5.

[Rodriquez]

4th mass can be a terrible thing if..big if..ye can get them on high ground..and keep them alive...

and if ye have the valiant army bonus.....which means parmenio is a good choice to run if yer using them and have a varied army...

even ground...I've torn them up with vipers...
and frenzy...also braxis I believe and grimnak will tear through them consistently..


cheers
Rod

[reapersaurus]

:lol:

GRIMNAK, chew thru them regularly?

Yeah, like for 2 turns before he's dead.
If he's lucky, he'd chomp 2 and kill one before their 12 shots (assuming reinforcements were within 11 spaces) took him down.

Yes, for those counting at home, this typical scenario involves Grimnak taking out a whopping total of .... 52.5 points, while losing 120 points.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

:lol:

GRIMNAK, chew thru them regularly?

Yeah, like for 2 turns before he's dead.
If he's lucky, he'd chomp 2 and kill one before their 12 shots (assuming reinforcements were within 11 spaces) took him down.

Yes, for those counting at home, this typical scenario involves Grimnak taking out a whopping total of .... 52.5 points, while losing 120 points.

The sad truth of SquadScape, I mean Heroscape. :cry:

[CornPuff]

aww, you guys should ask GaryLASQ about which unit contains the point cost of bonding. (I forget what he said)

The point is that Grimnak isnt Grimnak without orcs! If you were to assault the mass mass, there would be carnage caused by the 2 and sometimes 3 attack dice that the little gruts muster. While the mass mass is busy focus firing on grimmy, they are being slain left and right by the lowly 10 point grut! every time a grut kills a minutemen, its a 7.5 point swing toward the good guys.

Also, consider if the more mobile orc forces stopped to pick up a couple of glyphs before engaging the paralytic mass mass.

I'm not saying the the orc mass is the best way to beat the mass mass, or that the mass mass isn't strong. I just think you are selling the denizens of planet Grut a bit short, and that isn't fair to Tornak, Nerak, or little Grimms.

[netherspirit]

This may be a specific counter, but I do believe Gorillinators beat out the 4th mass point for point on even ground, just FYI.

http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/matchup.pl

This calculator does not take into account of range or movement.

So tha'ts not really an accurate calculation. If it were though, when the 4th Mass get their, easy to get, 3 extra attack die, you would have to give the G'nators 6 more defense die just to get the odds back to a coin flip.

[reapersaurus]

The point is that Grimnak isnt Grimnak without orcs! If you were to assault the mass mass, there would be carnage caused by the 2 and sometimes 3 attack dice that the little gruts muster. While the mass mass is busy focus firing on grimmy, they are being slain left and right by the lowly 10 point grut! every time a grut kills a minutemen, its a 7.5 point swing toward the good guys.

Also, consider if the more mobile orc forces stopped to pick up a couple of glyphs before engaging the paralytic mass mass.

I'm not saying the the orc mass is the best way to beat the mass mass, or that the mass mass isn't strong. I just think you are selling the denizens of planet Grut a bit short, and that isn't fair to Tornak, Nerak, or little Grimms.Ahh - good points, there - I see what you were saying now.

The problem, though, is - that the orcs have to withstand a barrage from the 4th Mass before they can get into melee range. So likely 2 will go down each turn (estimate). When they only have 2 attacking against 4 Mass, they'll only likely kill 1 Mass before the last 2 are killed on the 4th Mass' turn with Wait then Fire active.

Now, when you combine the 2 - Grimnak and 1 squad of orcs vs 2 squads of 4th Mass (assuming the 2nd squad of Mass is within 11 spaces of the first squad and any reinforcement squads of orcs are more than 6 spaces away from the Mass, which is the more common case):

Grimnak/orcs will have to weather one barrage before they get close. Let's assume they have 3 attack dice (either Wait then Fire, or height, but not both). IME Grimnak will take 2 or 3 wounds per Mass barrage. The Mass don't need to be next to each other, but the Orcs likely do, so next turn Grim will Chomp one, and let's assume 2 Mass die from Grim's attack, and the 4 orcs.
Next turn, 3 more 4th Mass come up from up to 11 spaces away, to join the 1 remaining in the first squad, and take out Grimnak. It's highly likely that only 1 orc will be able to reach a 4th Mass this turn, due to the way the map positions developed, and the 4th mass being spread out to begin with, and the orcs being required to COME TO THE 4th MASS figures to engage. We'll assume 1 4th Mass dies.
Next turn, there are again 4 shots coming in at 4 orcs. 3 attack dice, 2 defense. That's usually around 3 dead.
Game over.
Totals - orcs lost 160 points, 4th Mass lost 70 points. Equal Order Marker placement.

This is similar to how just about every battle favors the 4th Mass, as long as they keep their front line within 5 Move and 6 Range of the next.

[reapersaurus]

:bump:

Well, it seems like the without-a-flaw 4th Mass may have chalked up a 1st-2nd place showing in the 1st Gencon HS tourney..... (nwo and lilwis)

[negation]

I WILL p00n ALL!!!

[ultradoug]

hey, sorry about this, we still on 4th mass? :D
I'm going to get the stats and pics of the new waves up in a bit so we can talk about them next.

[ultradoug]

nevermind it was done..by mathguy.. heres the post:


As I said in the other thread, I went to a Walmart that previously had crappy
HS stuff (that's my reverse psychology strategy that has paid off before in
April when finding TT) and found a whole set of Wave 5.
Since everyone here is impatient (as expected), I will spend some of my
work time typing these in. You'll all have to wait til tonight to see
the pics since no cameras are allowed here.
I am going to use abbreviations to speed up my typing.
I will remove typos and put in rest of information later.
Better yet, I will post pics later.
Gotta run to lunch now.

The format will be LIFE-MOVE-RANGE-ATT-DEF followed by abilities.

Deathreavers
1-6-1-1-4 SMALL-3 (The first small figures!!)
Scatter: After a Deathreaver you control rolls def dice against a norm att,
you may move any 2 Deathreavers you control up to 4 spaces each.
Disengage:
Climb X2: may double their height in terms of movement up or down.

Nakita Agents
1-5-6-3-3
Smoke powder 13: When any Nakita Agent you control, or any figure you control
that is adjacent to any Nakita Agent you control, is targeted for a normal
attack from a nonadjacent opponent, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you
roll a 13 or higher, all Nakita Agents you control, and all figures you control that are adjacent to those Nakita
Agents, no longer have any visible hit zones for the duration of the targeting
figure's turn.
Engagement Strike 15: Iff an opp's small or medium fig moves adj to a Nakita
Agent, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the opp's fig
receives a wound. Figs may be targeted only as they move into engagement
with a N A.
Gorilla movement Bonding: May move 3 gorillinators you control up to 7 each.

Warriors of Ashra
1-5-1-3-3 (Ullar)
Elves! (these were the amazon like figures)
Defense Agility: When a Warrior of Ashra rolls def dice against a norm att
from an adj fig, one shield will block all damage.

Blastatrons
1-5-7-1-2
Galadiatron Movement Bonding: May move 4 gladiatrons you control up to 5 spaces.
Homing Device: When attacking a non-adj fig, add 1 attack die for
every Soulbourg who follows Vydar that is adjacent to the defending fig.

Deathstalkers
1-7-1-3-5 (Large 5)
Maul: When rolling att dice against a small or med fig, if a Deathstalker
rolls a skull on every dice, the defending fig receives a would
for every skull, and cannot roll any defense dice.

Kozuke Samurai
1-5-1-5-3 (unique)
Charging Assault: Any or all Kozuke Samurai may add 3 to their Move num as long
as they are unengaged prior to moving. Kozuke Samurai mus be able to move
adj to an opp's figure in order to use Charging Assault.
CounterStrike:

Ninja's of the Northern Wind
1-6-1-4-3 (unique)
Disappearing Ninja: If a Ninja is attacked with a norm att and at least one
skull is rolled, roll the 20-sider to disappear. If you roll 1-11, roll
defense normally. If you roll 12 or higher, that Ninja takes no damage
and instead may move up to 4 spaces. Ninjas can disappear only if they
end their disappearing move not adj to any enemy figs.
Ghost Walk:
Disengage:

Spartacus
5-5-1-6-4 (Einar)
Gladiator Inspiration: If all order markers for a round are placed on
Gladiator army cards, and at least one Order Marker is placed on
Spartacus, then all Gladiators you control (except Spartacus) become
inspired. Inspired Gladiators add 1 to move, att, def for the rest of the
round.

Crixis
5-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator)
One Shield Defense: When rolling def dice, if Crixis rolls at least
one sheild, the most wounds Crixis may take for this attack is one.

Retiarius
4-5-1-5-3 (Einar gladiator)
Net Trip 14: After moving and before attacking, roll the 20-sider.
If you roll a 14 or higher, any small or med fig attacked by Retiarius
this turn may roll no more than 1 die for defense.

============================
Here are pics of the cards.
============================
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/reavers.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/agents.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/ashra.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/blast.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/stalkers.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/samurai.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/ninja.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/spartacus.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/crixus.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/retiarius.jpg

=============================
Here are pics & closeups of the figures.
=============================
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/overall.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup1.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup2.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup3.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup4.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup5.jpg
http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/closeup6.jpg

Enjoy, everyone!

Post edited to include pics. Edited 2nd time to put in missing pic.

I'm thinking the Blastatrons and combo should be the talk for this week!

[ultradoug]

http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/wave5/blast.jpg

Bonds with: Gladiatrons.
(cyberclaw guys)

60 Points is a cheep cheep pull! If your drafting or pre-building, this is almost top pick, even if you can't pull the combo, this is a nice unit for a great price, effectivly 12 range and a 3 squad of shooters, what more could you want? But yes, if you do get in the combo of Gladiatrons at 80thats just 140 points of Messed up in the head action. Go tie up the board with the Gladitrons , shoot the figure next round for a +1 for each Gladiatron?! Wow, just hands down thats awsome.

Also works for MajorX17 and Major Q9 - Simply put a win/win for the cyberclaw guys:

1- they cant run.
2- they are probley dead anyway.

But wait! Theres more! (more?!) Yes more! These things even combo with DW9K! Geting more range!! Oh my word, get DW9K next to them, go move in with the combo, and , man they are dead. I don't care what/who you are, you are pretty much the dead!

5/5 for these things with combos.
3.5/5 without the combo -- they are great on there own, but not as great with the combo.

[feekonea]

I wouldnt make them that high, they have yet to prove to me with their combos, I think you should only do units that you played 7+ times before. 3.5/5

[ultradoug]

I disagree, to analise a unit does not really take playing it 7 times, most the units I've maybe played once or twice IF that! This is a messed up unit, expect to see it in tourment armys.

[Jason]

The people in the "blastatrons are broken" camp are overeacting.

1)Their effectiveness goes down drastically when the Gladiatrons go down
2)They only have 2 defense
3)You would be almost forced to run 2x Blast and 2x Gladiatrons which is already 280 points
4)Smart opponents are not going to merely allow you to surround their figures

[ultradoug]

how would you prevent this jason? If you must post here, you should at least give a Review of the unit, since that is what this topic is for. Start providing some evedance of things you say, for example I gave some clear cut reasions why I think that the units are pretty darn good. You have given none. How can someone prevent you from surrounding there figures? Give example of counter play, dont just over simplyfy like you do in every single post I've ever seen you do.

[Jason]

"Give example of counter play, dont just over simplyfy like you do in every single post I've ever seen you do."

Where to start....

-Ranged units taking out the Gladiatrons before they can become adjacent is an obvious problem. Gladiatrons can only move 5 spaces and that is assuming no height elevations, a unit with 7+ range will be able to target the Gladiatrons and on their turn the glaiatrons still will not be able to get adjacent leaving you with unboosted Blastatrons.

-Fast units like the Deathreavers, Vipers, and Ninjas of the North will be able to get adjacent to the Blastatrons due to their superior speed.

-Once the Gladiatrons go down the Blastatrons effectiveness is greatly reduced.

-Many of the figures (especially in this wave have great defence). Imagine this scenario: I have multiple figures surrounding a Nikita adjacent, you try to attack with a Boosted Blastatron, 1 successful smoke screen roll and they are all immune this turn. Whether you get 1 attack die or 20 attack dice makes no difference that turn

-Trying to boost the Blastatrons will encourage grouping together the Gladiatrons. Units like Murphy, Sullivan, Monks, Brunak, etc laugh in the face of bunched opponent units

[ultradoug]

thats better. Now, use the quote button! @_@

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif PRESS ME Jason! PRESS ME! :(

[reapersaurus]

Jason, your examples are always so simplistic, yet based on just a shred enough of analysis that you can make believe that they are solid.-Ranged units taking out the Gladiatrons before they can become adjacent is an obvious problem. What kind of weakness is that?!?
So you're gracing us all with the brilliant deduction that if ranged figures kill the Gladiatrons before they get in melee, than they are not so hot. :roll: Quick - let's contact the news papers with this new strategy you've uncovered!
-Fast units like the Deathreavers, Vipers, and Ninjas of the North will be able to get adjacent to the Blastatrons due to their superior speed.So you ACTUALLY think that 6 and 7 movement can somehow teleport thru the Gladiatrons and their ability, AND cover the 6 or 7 distance between the Glad's and Blast's that the opponent will control?
Wow - I'd REALLY like to play you in a tournament, and watch when this magical teleportation strategy somehow doesn;t work... yet again, even with you insisting it should. :roll:
-Once the Gladiatrons go down the Blastatrons effectiveness is greatly reduced.That's about as revelatory as saying that once the Krav Maga get to 1 figure, they're not a very strong squad.
-Many of the figures (especially in this wave have great defence). Uh. no they don;t have great defense, compared to 5 and 6-dice ranged attacks. NOTHING in the game can withstand four 5 and 6 dice attacks.
And if you're counting on the Nakita's ability to constantly save them, you'll be getting wasted time and time again on a competetive board, constantly assuming the 20 sided die will save you.
Are you even aware that the Nakita are a unique squad?
That all it takes is 1 skull rolled, and they'll have to hope they get lucky with a 20 sided roll or getting one shield with their paltry 3 defense dice?
Are you aware they are FORTY POINTS EACH?
If you really think that having the Nakitas surrounded and locked down by a squad of Glad's being peppered by Blast's is a GOOD situation to be in, when they lose 40 points whenever they roll average-to-bad, then you obciously don;t play this game against competetive opponents.
-Trying to boost the Blastatrons will encourage grouping together the Gladiatrons. Units like Murphy, Sullivan, Monks, Brunak, etc laugh in the face of bunched opponent unitsOK, let's look at that. You simplistically state that some units like bunched opponents.
You ignore how they would GET that way on the field.
Think about it, man - if the Glads are grouped around any of those units, they are already dead. Your simplistic examples ALWAYS assume the perfect optimal scenarios for your side. How the heck are the Glads always grouped around some other fig, and your guys are nailing them from distance?
HS doesn;t work that way.
Murphy, Sullivan, and Brunak will all go down in ONE TURN when they are surrounded. It's as simple as that. So you listing these guys as somehow avoiding the Glads is useless, since you don;t provide any strategy that allows them to pick off the Glads without taking any attacks from the Blasts.

This is how all your "analysis" is - in a vacuum, that doesn;t take into account the other player, or the close positions on the map, etc.

[Jason]

"So you ACTUALLY think that 6 and 7 movement can somehow teleport thru the Gladiatrons and their ability, AND cover the 6 or 7 distance between the Glad's and Blast's that the opponent will control?
Wow - I'd REALLY like to play you in a tournament, and watch when this magical teleportation strategy somehow doesn;t work... yet again, even with you insisting it should"

-Apparantly you do not realize figures can move AROUND your slower pieces. Just an interesting piece of information

"Uh. no they don;t have great defense, compared to 5 and 6-dice ranged attacks. NOTHING in the game can withstand four 5 and 6 dice attacks. "

Hmm maybe you want to try telling that to the Krav, or to the Nikita where 1 smokescreen success makes them ALL + any adjacent units untouchable the rest of the turn, or the NONW that disappear at almost a 50% success rate, the Sentinels will survive pretty well too. Additionally by moving your Gladiatrons some will likely die due to the Nikita Engagement Strike. Statistically 1-2 gladiators will die just from that strike if u engage with 4.

Even if you somehow lock down the Nikita the G Nators have a good chance at getting adjacent to the Blastatrons with their great movement. (Unless you think your magical army will be locking down my ENTIRE army at the same time)

You say I assume ideal conditions yet assume opponents will allow your gladiatrons to surround your pieces, talk about the pot calling the kettle black

[HyperactiveSloth]

"So you ACTUALLY think that 6 and 7 movement can somehow teleport thru the Gladiatrons and their ability, AND cover the 6 or 7 distance between the Glad's and Blast's that the opponent will control?
Wow - I'd REALLY like to play you in a tournament, and watch when this magical teleportation strategy somehow doesn;t work... yet again, even with you insisting it should"

-Apparantly you do not realize figures can move AROUND your slower pieces. Just an interesting piece of information

You're not getting it. Anyone using the Blast/Glad combo will likely have their Glads set up as a moving screen (remember they all get to move on each Blastatron turn), while keeping the distance between the Blast & Glad fronts about the same as the Blasts' range (7). So, he has a very valid question as to how you would magically reach the Blastatrons without risk of engaging the Gladiatrons.
Example 1: Assuming a non-flying unit, with the Glad's arranged 2 spaces apart (so that there's no room to get between them without being locked down) that efectively makes a "wall" of Gladiatrons 11 spaces wide. How can you move AROUND an 11 space wide obstacle, AND cover a 7 space gap to get to the Blastatron's without being attacked? Even frenzies and road tiles would be unlikely to get you THAT far!
Example 2: Even if you use a flying unit to pass over the Glads, you've still got to cover 7 spaces distance to engage tha Blasts, and if you don't get all the way to the Blasts, all you've succeeded in doing is getting in 1 attack on them at the cost of letting your unit be locked down by the Glads on the very next turn. The Blasts only cost 60 points. Any unit that could have a chance of killing them in this way would be more expensive than that and be a bad deal to sacrifice.
Example 3: Yes, if you're using a unit with good range, you don't need to make it all the way to the Blasts to attack them, BUT once you get in your 1 turn of attack, you've now brought yourself more than close enough to the Glads to be locked down. Again, bad sacrifice, just like the last example.

Oh, and don't forget that the opponent IS going to have more than just 1 Blasts and 1 Glads on the table. By rushing past the Glads, you've just thrown your unit paralyzed (by the claws) into enemy territory unsupported.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Blastatrons are broken, or anything. I'm just saying YOUR supposed way of dealing with them is useless. You simply HAVE to take down the frontline of Glads, THEN take then on.


"Uh. no they don;t have great defense, compared to 5 and 6-dice ranged attacks. NOTHING in the game can withstand four 5 and 6 dice attacks. "
Hmm maybe you want to try telling that to the Krav, or to the Nikita where 1 smokescreen success makes them ALL + any adjacent units untouchable the rest of the turn, or the NONW that disappear at almost a 50% success rate, the Sentinels will survive pretty well too. Additionally by moving your Gladiatrons some will likely die due to the Nikita Engagement Strike. Statistically 1-2 gladiators will die just from that strike if u engage with 4.

Yeah, and you can just win the game on the first turn with unlimited frenzies while you're at it. :roll:

Even if you somehow lock down the Nikita the G Nators have a good chance at getting adjacent to the Blastatrons with their great movement. (Unless you think your magical army will be locking down my ENTIRE army at the same time)

You say I assume ideal conditions yet assume opponents will allow your gladiatrons to surround your pieces, talk about the pot calling the kettle black

Who said anything about the Glads magically surrounding an entire army? As far as your comment again about the Gorillinators magically waltzing past a line of Glads and reaching figures 7 spaces behind them by only moving 7 spaces just means you must not be able to count that high. :P The point is that they're a little harder to deal with than you would like to (make)believe.

[Jason]

If you have Nikita and have a squad of G Nators on the right side and a squad of G Nators on the left side of the board there is no possible way the gladiatrons can be locking down all the figures. The only way is if you guys play on incredibly narrow boards or board with obvious choke points.

Even if they do not reach the blasatrons that turn they are only facing an attack with a whopping 1 attack die

*Here is a likely scenario involving the Gladiatrons/Blastatrons. My Krav or Syv or AE are 8 space away. The gladiatrons move forward and end 3 spaces away, the blastatrons move and don't kill anyone using only 1 attack die. On my turn my Krav/AE/ or Syv target the Gladiatrons and kill a few of them. Even if they get adjacent that turn they won't get boosted much since few gladiatrons remain

[reapersaurus]

-Apparantly you do not realize figures can move AROUND your slower pieces. Just an interesting piece of informationJason, you should stop posting so much this weekend.
You're simply not thinking things thru.
How do you figure that a 6 or 7 movement unit without flying or disengage is going to somehow get around a 5-movement squad that has a 2 space zone that figures cannot pass through.
Tell you what - I challenge you to put the figures on the table, with the Blastatrons 11 or 12 spaces (5 movement + 7 Range) behind the Glads spaced 3 spaces apart, and see how much of the field that takes up.
To save you the set-up, I'll tell you - that covers a width of 12 spaces.
To engage any of the Blastatrons, a figure would have to have a movement of at least .......like, 13. It would have had to start right next to a Blastatron and on the end to get around the group. :headshake:

But really, Jason, you've proved that the figures position and abilities doesn;t matter to your simplistic statements like "figures can move around your slower figures."
So I predict you will ignore how I just showed you how you are wrong in those statements in this case.
Hmm maybe you want to try telling that to the Krav, or to the Nikita So you're relying on 2 unique squads that total 220 points to take out 1 or 2 cheaper common squads, that will likely kill them when they are adjacent? :confused:
I really don't understand your "strategy" that involves expensive ranged units getting engaged with cheaper squads.
BTW - the Sentinels simply cannot take that high of attacks, and the GNators can't get past the Gladiatrons either, as I showed above.
You say I assume ideal conditions yet assume opponents will allow your gladiatrons to surround your pieces, talk about the pot calling the kettle blackYou can disparage me all you want, but my examples are solid, and based on HS realities. Yours are invariably based on assumptions, optimal non-standard examples, and never describe a board mayout that is required for any strategic analysis.

And if you can explain how a big non-ranged hero is going to stop the Glads from locing him up, I'm all ears.

Or, you could address the multiple examples that I've proven my points and disproved yours, that would be refreshing.

[reapersaurus]

If you have Nikita and have a squad of G Nators on the right side and a squad of G Nators on the left side of the board there is no possible way the gladiatrons can be locking down all the figures. The only way is if you guys play on incredibly narrow boards or board with obvious choke points.

Even if they do not reach the blasatrons that turn they are only facing an attack with a whopping 1 attack die

*Here is a likely scenario involving the Gladiatrons/Blastatrons. My Krav or Syv or AE are 8 space away. The gladiatrons move forward and end 3 spaces away, the blastatrons move and don't kill anyone using only 1 attack die. On my turn my Krav/AE/ or Syv target the Gladiatrons and kill a few of them. Even if they get adjacent that turn they won't get boosted much since few gladiatrons remainYou are assuming 2 things:

1) That the Glads have to advance on YOUR position.
2) That they are up against multiple squads, that are already in position.

I am not talking about strategy against squads, for the most part.
The Glads/Blasts are hero and high-defense squad killers.

But either way, I am done spending my time re-pointing out the obvious to you, and providing extensive real-world in-play examples to support my posts, since you are not willing (or able, I can't determine) to reply in kind.

I should probably do what UPC has done, and Ignore you, but I won't use that feature for anyone.

You do make it extremely appealing, though....

[feekonea]

maybe you guys should play a game, reaper and jason, I dont know how your going to do that, but If you guys play each other reaper can use the blastrons/gladiatrons and jason could use w/e the heck he thinks could beat them, since they are "broken" Im pretty sure that allowing jason to pick a counter shouldnt be a problem w/ reaper.

[Jason]

"1) That the Glads have to advance on YOUR position.
2) That they are up against multiple squads, that are already in position.

I am not talking about strategy against squads, for the most part.
The Glads/Blasts are hero and high-defense squad killers. "

Almost every squad is a Hero killer :D

If you have 7+ range the gladiatrons have to advance unless they want to just stand there and get killed



***Reaper just needs to fly out to Boston. (or we could play over the phone "look at that I rolled all skulls again!!" :wink: )

[ultradoug]

So, uhh. where are the unit ratings? So much side tracked.
Its pretty much all my falt I'm sure.
[ quote] no space after the [
and then [ /quote] ,again, no space after [
put that around some text:

this is a quote

My pm said more. I know you can do this.

[skyknight]

My pm said more. I know you can do this

do what :lol:

[ultradoug]

use the #@@#@%!! quote button.
I give up, reaper eat everyone from so-cal again!
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/coolmondoug/socal.gif
ahh, much better.
...I'm going back to offtopic relm!

[Jason]

These are the best days at the site, with everyone giving their opinions on all the new Squads/Heroes

[feekonea]

UD I hate you, you forgot to draw me oh wait, then reaper wouldnt have won... haha just kiddin, but not really. :wink: :D

[Turtleboy]

I for one am gonna love these guys. I will often draft a soulborg heavy army, and with Blastarons and a range of 9 (Dw 9k!!) can poor bullets down on the enemy, while Major X17 and Glads hold them down in place.

Not to mention Dwk can stop any mass of squads from getting close to the Blasterons!!

i'll give these guys a 4/5 for now, will have more after play testing.

[Riggler]

The best way to describe the Blastatrons is they seem to be a cool squad to play becaue of their mechanic.

They are a cheap 60 points, but unless your opponent is playing a lot of Vydar soulborgs they are not going to be worth it unless you invest in Vydar soulborgs for your army.

So they should be a great counter to a Vydar soulborg heavy army, which means probably a great county to themselves.

They have the potential to do massive damage but it is so situational. For someone playing a defensive game and picking the right units, these guys should be great. If you are in the mood to play an offensive, go-get-em-tiger sort of game, you'll probably be best to leave these out of your army.

The low defense makes them properly priced.

Final rating:

:star: :star: :halfstar: out of :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: [/b]

[jaques]

I give the Blastatrons 4/5 for sheer awesome deadly mayhem capability.

I give Jason 1/5 for analysis, but 5/5 for his indomitable persistence. :)

[Su-Bak-Na]

I give Jason 1/5 for analysis, but 5/5 for his indomitable persistence. :)
:rofl: Funny stuff, funny stuff.

[Jason]

I give Jason a 5/5 for analysis although people might say I am biased :wink:

[aielman]

I give reaper and jason a 5/5 but they have to learn how to share it first


:o

[Drumline3469]

I give reaper and jason a 5/5 but they have to learn how to share it first


:o

HAHAHA Yeah right. Keep dreaming. Although it would be easy if Reaper is anything like his avi.

[Sir Dendrik]

if they're adjacent they only have 1 attack, so things resistant to range own them, such as sarge, krav mag, eov, dzu teh

special attacks can bypass the gladiatrons

you can counter draft fairly easily, as you kind of need gladiatrons with them for them to be any good, kind of

that's why they ain't broken

[aielman]

I played with them this weekend. And from my battle, it was difficult to get more then a couple of units around any given piece. And if you could get more then 2 they were no stronger then the 4th mass, Micros or most of the other ranged units.

Another way to look at it is while some units are the perfect anti grouping units (DW9k) These are the perfect units to leave yourself bunched up against.

4/5 for pure fun of playing though. These things with the gladiatrons are alot of fun to use with the lock down and homing.