Do YOU think Plague works on the castle door

[Nwojedi]

It's been discussed, and now we want to see what most of you think. Thi s is not a poll whether or not you think it's stupid if the plague can attack the door. It's a poll on whether or not you think it can by the way the rules are laid out. Some say it can be attacked because it's a special ability that does damage. Others say, that it can't because it's an uncontrolled ability that doesn't target anything. So here are the way the rules are laid out, and you decide.

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

Marrden Hounds: After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds you control. If you roll a 16 or higher, that figure receives a wound. Soulborgs and Wulsinu are not affected by his marro plague.

[GaryLASQ]

i voted "yes" because of this paragraph and the line i bolded.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

the only is there to prevent things like Jotun's Throw or Kelda's Healing Touch. i think the line i bolded was put in the rules because they wanted DW7K's Self Destruct to work (and other similar future special abilities the only wound).

note: i don't like the idea of being able to Plague the door but the "door is open" for it (pun intended).

[toddrew]

I think that it will not work due to Doc Savage's reasoning of only abilities that occur during an attack will affect the door. My nay may be colored by not thinking that the ability should apply on principle, though :)

[GaryLASQ]

yeah, Self-Destruct says "instead of attacking" so at least it's being done during the proper phase. Plague says "before attacking" so maybe that's what could exclude it.

i suggested on the castle rules thread that the bolded line above should read "or by special powers that only cause wounds and are used instead of attacking."

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I think that it will not work due to Doc Savage's reasoning of only abilities that occur during an attack will affect the door. My nay may be colored by not thinking that the ability should apply on principle, though :)

Very good point, Doc! And I'm with you Toddrew, I just don't want those hounds to have yet one more advantage in the game! :headshake:

[peabodyw]

I think the fact that the hounds power does not affect the Soulborgs is a good reason why they could not affect the door. You can't plague a robot so you can't plague a door. My two cents.

[GaryLASQ]

I just don't want those hounds to have yet one more advantage in the game! :headshake:yeah, but at least they can't climb ladders and are a height of 4. so just put your castle on a plateau 4 levels high and make sure the enemy's start zone is behind the cliff with a few ladders on the cliff so other height 4 figs can climb up. :)

[GaryLASQ]

I think the fact that the hounds power does not affect the Soulborgs is a good reason why they could not affect the door. You can't plague a robot so you can't plague a door. My two cents.but that is based on using comparisons, not looking at the rules.

[LilNewbie]

I voted "No" but the answer could very well be yes. I can see both sides of the ruling making sense and what really matters are the intentions of the designers to allow the plague (or any type of damaging special ability) to affect or not affect the door. I don't think it will be a game breaker anyway since you get to roll only once per turn for the door no matter how many Hounds are near the door.

Newb.

[peabodyw]

I think a comparison is a good way of looking at rules. We have to ask ourselves why they can't affect Soulborgs. If you strictly go by the rules and wording then it looks like it should be but we can see that can be broken with the term "move" in the summon a carrier discussion.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I just don't want those hounds to have yet one more advantage in the game! :headshake:yeah, but at least they can't climb ladders and are a height of 4. so just put your castle on a plateau 4 levels high and make sure the enemy's start zone is behind the cliff with a few ladders on the cliff so other height 4 figs can climb up. :)

Great! Now do you have any have any AE solutions from storming the castle (not the door situation...)? :D

[GaryLASQ]

what really matters are the intentions of the designershow can we know what their intentions are other than following the rules as written. anything else is reading between the lines.

[LilNewbie]

what really matters are the intentions of the designershow can we know what their intentions are other than following the rules as written. anything else is reading between the lines.

Correct, so either we just guess or we send a question into Hasbro. After thinking about it more, I would have voted yes since they would have worded the door rules differently if they didn't want the plague to affect the door. Of course, there is the consideration that they just forgot about the Hounds ability when designing the rules (but I doubt it.)

Newb.

[ultradoug]

sure, whatever

[InfinityMax]

No. That's dumb.

[Venoc_Viper]

The plague targets figures the door is a destructable object.
Maybe it was the intention of the creators to limit certain special abilities so that they can only target figures or destructable objects but not both.

[GaryLASQ]

Great! Now do you have any have any AE solutions? :Dsaturate the wall walk so they have no place to land. and put something durable on good old space #4. those pesky AE are scenario buster no matter what the circumstace. just pray they never drop or are fashionably late.

[Nwojedi]

you know what. I think any attack (on the door) involving the 20 sided cannot be used. i think that maybe the way they rule that one. Just a thought, and an easy way for Hasbro to simplify it.

[GaryLASQ]

The plague targets figures the door is a destructable object.welcome ___ with post number 1.
when it is under attack, destructible object = figure (for the most part).

[GaryLASQ]

No. That's dumb.that's based on emotion, not rules. :)

[LilNewbie]

Here is the wording on the door:

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

The door can be targeted by any attack, special attack or special powers that only causes wounds. It receives wounds the same way a figure receives wounds. Unless they come back and rule differently, looks to me like the door can be affected by the plague. The door can't me mind-shackled, can't be healed by Kelda or be affected by Murphy's whip or the stare.

Newb.

[thehandofzarquon]

I think the fact that the hounds power does not affect the Soulborgs is a good reason why they could not affect the door. You can't plague a robot so you can't plague a door. My two cents.

The problem with that is that I would think that if it can't affect the soulborgs (robots), it would affect the Undead... but it does.

At the moment, I'll say that as long as the Undead are affected... so is a damn door (considering it too is dead living matter :P)

[bluekitsune13]

Although you could get a yes for technicallity, there's no way anyone's going to plague a door in my game. And I agree with Imax that it is indeed dumb.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Here is the wording on the door:

[i]Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds.


That's the hard evidence right there. I think that trumps Doc's reasoning. I don't want it to, but I think the plague will work.

[LilNewbie]

I really don't want the plague to work against the door and I will probably rule (with group consensus) that the door is immune to the plague in friendly games. Tourney coordinators should be aware of this issue and decide on a ruling before using any maps involving the castle door.

Newb.

[Nwojedi]

well, look at the plague as floating acid spores, instead of a disease. That way it would make sense for it to slowly desinergrate a wooden door. Might not be corrosive enough to work on metal.

Looking at it like that, I could see how plague would work on the door. If that's how hasbro goes, that's how i'll look at the plague.

[LilNewbie]

well, look at the plague as floating acid spores, instead of a disease. That way it would make sense for it to slowly desinergrate a wooden door. Might not be corrosive enough to work on metal.

Looking at it like that, I could see how plague would work on the door. If that's how hasbro goes, that's how i'll look at the plague.

That's the idea I was going with but the Hounds bio doesn't support that viewpoint unfortunately:

Even scarier is their ability to inflict all living things with the deadly Marro Plague. Just being near them can be enough to cause instant damage.

I wish it said something along the lines of 'the toxic and acidic Marro Plague' but it doesn't.

Newb.

[thehandofzarquon]

well, look at the plague as floating acid spores, instead of a disease. That way it would make sense for it to slowly desinergrate a wooden door. Might not be corrosive enough to work on metal.

Looking at it like that, I could see how plague would work on the door. If that's how hasbro goes, that's how i'll look at the plague.

That's already how I have to look at it, considering that Undead aren't immune to the plague either. Or I can just house rule it away :P

[netherspirit]

The bio shouldn't factor into the game play at all. Its just there for flavor. Look past the word "plague" and see what the ability does. It inflicts wounds. The door can be affected by special abilities that only cause wounds. The "plague" only inflicts wounds. 'Nuff said.

[LilNewbie]

The bio shouldn't factor into the game play at all. Its just there for flavor. Look past the word "plague" and see what the ability does. It inflicts wounds. The door can be affected by special abilities that only cause wounds. The "plague" only inflicts wounds. 'Nuff said.

True, just wish the bios followed a stricter logic when relating to the game. Hasbro has used the bios in the past to explain how things work in the game (AE Drop for instance) and the bios should do that for all the figures. The way the Hounds bio is written it shouldn't affect undead or any non-living construct. If they would have worded it a bit different, it could be made to explain why it affects undead, doors, etc.

Newb.

[GaryLASQ]

Look past the word "plague" and see what the ability does.quote of the day.

replace "plague" with "d20 roll for unblockable hit".

replace "self destruct" with "d20 roll for unblockable hit(s)".

[countblah]

The idea of a plague infecting a door is inane and insane. The marro plague affects FIGURES. For me, the door is not a figure, any more than the ruins are figures, or the trees are figures. Army card or not, the door is not a figure.

[netherspirit]

The idea of a plague infecting a door is inane and insane. The marro plague affects FIGURES. For me, the door is not a figure, any more than the ruins are figures, or the trees are figures. Army card or not, the door is not a figure.

Most special attacks say choose a figure as well.

Have you read the rules for the door yet? It says it is considered a figure for some aspects of the game. :P

[ishbul]

Maybe the question should be who here is going to waste a turn trying to use plague on the door?
I say this because you have 1 out of four chance to hit with a plague per turn - which translates to 40 turns or 13.3 rounds to destroy a door. when there are so many better attack options like jotun, q9, subakna, and krug ect.??? even some unleashed anubians would be better.
also, almost any special attack would be better, shotgun jhonny shotgun blast...

[InfinityMax]

No. That's dumb.that's based on emotion, not rules. :)

And yet it's a valid argument. It's stupid to say that the plague can't hurt a soulborg, but it tears holes in doors. Plagues don't hurt doors.

Anybody playing with me who tries to plague the door is getting a poke in the eye. Even if they're on my team.

[countblah]

The idea of a plague infecting a door is inane and insane. The marro plague affects FIGURES. For me, the door is not a figure, any more than the ruins are figures, or the trees are figures. Army card or not, the door is not a figure.

Most special attacks say choose a figure as well.

Have you read the rules for the door yet? It says it is considered a figure for some aspects of the game. :P

Right. I agree. For some aspects of the game. As in, you can punch it, kick it, shoot it, etc. No problem. It is "targetable scenery", if you will. However, whatever the cards say, the door does not suddenly gain susceptibility to sickness when the marrden hounds are near it. It is considered a figure for some aspects of the game, but I would imagine, not this one. Although the designers may very well state that the marro plague does in fact affect the door, it won't at my house. That's balls. I know it's silly to discuss the realism of a world with flying demons and orcs and roman archers with range identical to that of a musket, but seriously. A sick door? Get out of here.

[GaryLASQ]

Maybe the question should be who here is going to waste a turn trying to use plague on the door?......there are so many better attack options.absolutely! i like this point of view best of all. "hey, the plague works!?! oh well, no big deal. it's ineffective, i would never use it anyhow."

concerning Krug...he starts out with 2 for a normal attack. the Door has 2 automatic shields. so if my opponent came at my castle with Krug i wouldn't touch it until it was the last unit standing. he'd have to beat up on his own Krug first to get it to work.

[Doc_Savage]

The plague targets figures the door is a destructable object.welcome ___ with post number 1.
when it is under attack, destructible object = figure (for the most part).

EXACTLY! When the door is UNDER ATTACK it is treated like a figure. Plague is NOT an attack. And the first person that says it is will then have to explain how the hounds then get a second attack without having the Double attack power. The plague is not an attack and will not affect the Door.

This will be the official ruling. I am utterly confident of this.

[LilNewbie]

Look past the word "plague" and see what the ability does.quote of the day.

replace "plague" with "d20 roll for unblockable hit".

replace "self destruct" with "d20 roll for unblockable hit(s)".

There have been several discussions started from the names of powers and how they actually work. I couldn't agree more. The name of the power should be taken with a grain of salt. The most important point about power names is knowing that a power of the same name works identically when used by different units (except Tae's Flying...ooops :D ).

Newb.

[GaryLASQ]

The plague targets figures the door is a destructable object.welcome ___ with post number 1.
when it is under attack, destructible object = figure (for the most part).

EXACTLY! When the door is UNDER ATTACK it is treated like a figure. Plague is NOT an attack. And the first person that says it is will then have to explain how the hounds then get a second attack without having the Double attack power. The plague is not an attack and will not affect the Door.

This will be the official ruling. I am utterly confident of this.

i'm pretty much in agreement with you based on this logic (see page 1 since i'm repeating myself here). Plague has "before attack" (not during the attacking phase). Self Destruct has "instead of attacking" (during the attacking phase).

but the rules for castle doors should read "or by specials powers that only cause wounds and are used instead of attacking" to help clear the air.

[jcb231]

I think the fact that the hounds power does not affect the Soulborgs is a good reason why they could not affect the door. You can't plague a robot so you can't plague a door. My two cents.

Invalid logic for this argument. You can't use "Realism" or what "should" work to argue for either side here....just read the rules that are provided, don't use the fiction of the game world to decide.

[LilNewbie]

The plague targets figures the door is a destructable object.welcome ___ with post number 1.
when it is under attack, destructible object = figure (for the most part).

EXACTLY! When the door is UNDER ATTACK it is treated like a figure. Plague is NOT an attack. And the first person that says it is will then have to explain how the hounds then get a second attack without having the Double attack power. The plague is not an attack and will not affect the Door.

This will be the official ruling. I am utterly confident of this.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

Except they added wording to account for powers that aren't attacks but do damage (plague, etc.) Which leads me to believe their intentions were to have it affected by any power that causes wounds. Like I've stated before, having the door affected by the plague is lame but I don't see a way out of it unless they explicitly keep that one power from affecting the door.

I really don't think this is a game breaker. Like stated earlier, if someone is using the hound on the door...okay...what a waste, imo. Better the door than some of my real units that can actually attack back.

Newb.

[jcb231]

what really matters are the intentions of the designershow can we know what their intentions are other than following the rules as written. anything else is reading between the lines.

Correct, so either we just guess or we send a question into Hasbro. After thinking about it more, I would have voted yes since they would have worded the door rules differently if they didn't want the plague to affect the door. Of course, there is the consideration that they just forgot about the Hounds ability when designing the rules (but I doubt it.)

Newb.

Well put. It's the wording that is the key. They would have worded that section differently if they didn't mean for DW7K and Plague to work.

[jcb231]

Maybe the question should be who here is going to waste a turn trying to use plague on the door?......there are so many better attack options.absolutely! i like this point of view best of all. "hey, the plague works!?! oh well, no big deal. it's ineffective, i would never use it anyhow."

concerning Krug...he starts out with 2 for a normal attack. the Door has 2 automatic shields. so if my opponent came at my castle with Krug i wouldn't touch it until it was the last unit standing. he'd have to beat up on his own Krug first to get it to work.

The door only has one auto shield against Krug. He's huge.

Anyway, has anyone sent this question? Don't we have a usual team that sends this out for help?

Oh, and when you send it, don't do like nwojedi did and bias the whole arguement when you present it by asking if people think it's stupid. :-P

[bunjee]

Maybe the question should be who here is going to waste a turn trying to use plague on the door?......there are so many better attack options.absolutely! i like this point of view best of all. "hey, the plague works!?! oh well, no big deal. it's ineffective, i would never use it anyhow."

concerning Krug...he starts out with 2 for a normal attack. the Door has 2 automatic shields. so if my opponent came at my castle with Krug i wouldn't touch it until it was the last unit standing. he'd have to beat up on his own Krug first to get it to work.

The door only has one auto shield against Krug. He's huge.

Anyway, has anyone sent this question? Don't we have a usual team that sends this out for help?

Oh, and when you send it, don't do like nwojedi did and bias the whole arguement when you present it by asking if people think it's stupid. :-P

Yes, there is usually a team effort where the proposed wording is put into the "Rules to Hasbro" Thread
http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=651
for discussion of how it should be worded before it has been sent.

There have been a few people sending things in and it would be nice if they would put what they sent into that thread so we'll know and have it all in one place.

the thread is not for discussion of the rule, but for discussion of the question wording.

[Turtleboy]

Its Simple the door is alive.

Yep im a jenuiz :wink:

(but alive or not no plauge in my games!)

[Nwojedi]

Oh, and when you send it, don't do like nwojedi did and bias the whole arguement when you present it by asking if people think it's stupid. :-P

What are you talking about. I specifically told people for this thread, to NOT give their opinion, and base it on whether or not, they read the RULES as if you can or can't.

Gary, Krug is large and would only get one autoshield


also, ishbul , you do know, that the hounds Plague FIRST, and then you get to attack besides...right? It's not instead of.

[GaryLASQ]

Gary, Krug is large and would only get one autoshieldoops, my bad.

Doc, regarding the Plague not being an attack...

in my view there are two types of attacking in Heroscape.

the first type is what we first think of when we see the word "attack". it's when the defender rolls defense dice and engagement rules apply. and it's done during the attacking phase.

the second type is when a special ability is used to wound or outright destroy a figure. defense dice are not used. engagement rules do not apply. it may or may not be done during the attacking phase. Jotun's throw can be used as an "attack" if he throws the figure down to cause harm. Plague IS an "attack" because it's sole purpose is to wound the figure (friendly or not).

they get used to "attack" with first their germs and then their bite.
Jotun is used to "attack" with first his throw and then his sword.

[Doc_Savage]

Gary, Krug is large and would only get one autoshieldoops, my bad.

Doc, regarding the Plague not being an attack...

in my view there are two types of attacking in Heroscape.

the first type is what we first think of when we see the word "attack". it's when the defender rolls defense dice and engagement rules apply. and it's done during the attacking phase.

the second type is when a special ability is used to wound or outright destroy a figure. defense dice are not used. engagement rules do not apply. it may or may not be done during the attacking phase. Jotun's throw can be used as an "attack" if he throws the figure down to cause harm. Plague IS an "attack" because it's sole purpose is to wound the figure (friendly or not).

they get used to "attack" with first their germs and then their bite.
Jotun is used to "attack" with first his throw and then his sword.

Except that the use of those powers is not an "attack" in game terms. There are many ways to get wounds that are not attacks.

When the rules say:

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

It is clear to me that they are talking about attacks. Destructible Objects are treated like figures when they are attacked. Not at other times.

[netherspirit]

So by your line of thought Doc the Self-Destruct of the DW7K doesn't work on the door?

Why would they include the part about special abilities that only cause wounds in the second part of the rules?

[Doc_Savage]

So by your line of thought Doc the Self-Destruct of the DW7K doesn't work on the door?

Why would they include the part about special abilities that only cause wounds in the second part of the rules?

Self-Destruct does specifically replace your attack. I would allow it, but I'm not sure what the official rule would be since it also makes DW7000 blow up...

Without reviewing all the cards and the upcoming cards I am not sure how many replace attack special powers there are and will be that only cause wounds....

I'm hoping that between the conversations at Comic-Con and Gencon that we get these and all the pending questions on the rule question thread officially answered and FAQ on the Official Site.[/quote]

[netherspirit]

I just don't follow your logic. The Self-Destruct is not an attack and you said the door is only considered a figure for attacks. How does that work? :shrug: Even though it replaces the attack still doesn't make it an attack.

The part in the rules about special-abilities wouldn't need to be there if it was meant only for attacks. Would it?

[GaryLASQ]

Except that the use of those powers is not an "attack" in game terms. There are many ways to get wounds that are not attacks.correct. i realize i used the word "attack" loosely. when looking for a generalized word to describe all kinds of aggression, all i can think of is "atttack".

for example: Kelda's Healing Touch is not an attack (not aggressive) but it could inadvertenly cause a wound.

i wish these aggressive specials that aren't called "special attacks" were called something like a "super special attack". d20, undefenedable.

or maybe levels...Level 1 Attack (for normal attack), Level 2 Attack (for special attack) and Level 3 Attack (for aggressive special powers that result in wounding or destruction). :shrug:

[ishbul]

Here's another plague question:
If the door is down to 1 life wouldnt "the plague" fit into that category of attack described in the book as so:

"The door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack."

hmmmm.......

p.s. Yes, nwo i know that the hounds can plague then attack but were not talking about plagueing and then attacking, are we. :)

[GaryLASQ]

ha! i don't think so... :)

hey wait just a second...now that i look at that phrase again i see them calling some special powers to be "attacks".

The door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack. interesting.

[LilNewbie]

Here's another plague question:
If the door is down to 1 life wouldnt "the plague" fit into that category of attack described in the book as so:

"The door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack."

hmmmm.......

p.s. Yes, nwo i know that the hounds can plague then attack but were not talking about plagueing and then attacking, are we. :)

The destroy wording is to keep powers like "Chomp" and auto-destroy powers from working not powers that cause a wound and then destroys the door since it only had one wound remaining.

Newb.

[Doc_Savage]

I just don't follow your logic. The Self-Destruct is not an attack and you said the door is only considered a figure for attacks. How does that work? :shrug: Even though it replaces the attack still doesn't make it an attack.

The part in the rules about special-abilities wouldn't need to be there if it was meant only for attacks. Would it?

I said that I would allow it because it says instead of attacking but that I am not sure what the official ruling would be.

The official ruling may very well not allow it.

[ultradoug]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/coolmondoug/door.jpg


I feel bad for the door now.

[ishbul]

Perhaps the plague is some sort of microorganism that pulverizes and masecrates organic tissue not just living tissue. thereby destroying the structural integrity in the wood fibers of the door.

If this is the case, I'm all for saying yes to the plague.
Otherwise NEVER!!!!!!

[jcb231]

Oh, and when you send it, don't do like nwojedi did and bias the whole arguement when you present it by asking if people think it's stupid. :-P

What are you talking about. I specifically told people for this thread, to NOT give their opinion, and base it on whether or not, they read the RULES as if you can or can't.


You phrased it in a way that supports your bias....here's a quote. "Thi s is not a poll whether or not you think it's stupid if the plague can attack the door." By planting the idea that some might find it stupid, you put a bit of influence in the minds of those voting. You also put forward arguments outside of the rules, giving reasoning that prevented people from appraoching it with fresh minds. Just my two cents.

It's not a big deal or anything, it's just not the way it should be phrased when sent to Hasbro. It needs to be completely neutral in phrasing, presenting only the rules as they are given to us, and asking what the deal is.

[jcb231]

Here's another plague question:
If the door is down to 1 life wouldnt "the plague" fit into that category of attack described in the book as so:

"The door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack."

hmmmm.......

p.s. Yes, nwo i know that the hounds can plague then attack but were not talking about plagueing and then attacking, are we. :)

The destroy wording is to keep powers like "Chomp" and auto-destroy powers from working not powers that cause a wound and then destroys the door since it only had one wound remaining.

Newb.

Bingo. That phrase is meant to get rid of Chomp, Stone Stare, etc.

If you could never destroy the door in one attack, you could never destroy the door, period. Think about it.

[ishbul]

If you could never destroy the door in one attack, you could never destroy the door, period. Think about it.

It says

cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers

It never says you cannot destroy it in one attack it just says you cannot destroy it with special powers in one attack.

[ultradoug]

your kidding right? you ever try to destory a door? Its inpossible you cant do it in real life.

[MacG]

Most special attacks say choose a figure as well.

Have you read the rules for the door yet? It says it is considered a figure for some aspects of the game.


EXACTLY! When the door is UNDER ATTACK it is treated like a figure. Plague is NOT an attack. And the first person that says it is will then have to explain how the hounds then get a second attack without having the Double attack power. The plague is not an attack and will not affect the Door.

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

The door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack.

The real question is that TARGETED AND ATTACKED. I'm reading it as doors may be targeted by attacks as if they were figures. You need a power that attacks them.

Gary clearly reads it as doors may be AFFECTED by powers that are not attacks.

I'm really torn. It looks to me like technically, the door would not be hurt by DW7k. He doesn't target or attack anything, he does wounds when he blows. But that's asinine. Finally, a use for the dumb sucker, and I'm not going to outlaw it.

I will be very interested to see which way they go with this. Although I believe the rule as stated means special powers that are not attacks don't work, I can see how they might have been trying to indicate the opposite, especially when you throw in the follow up about destroying it in one attack.

[netherspirit]

]
Although I believe the rule as stated means special powers that are not attacks don't work


If that were true there would be no need for them to put the section in the rules about special powers that cause wounds. There are only 2 types of attacks. Normal and Special. If they didn't want special power to affect the door they wouldn't have put that in there.

The only types of special powers that are attacks are special attacks and those are covered. I think if they wanted special powers to not work they wouldn't have put the section in the rules about them working at all. It would have just said Normal attacks and special attack and made no mention of special powers.

I hope that makes a little bit of sense its hard for me to gather my thoughts....I'm in Vicodin-land right now and my head is all muddled....

[LilNewbie]

We all know the damage DW7K can cause from the Attack of the Robots saga:

Here he sneaks his way to the castle walls:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/LilNewbie/HeroScape/100_1795.jpg

Too late, the defenders realize their mistake:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/LilNewbie/HeroScape/100_1801.jpg

The resulting explosion even destroys an attacking Sentinel and blows a portion of the gate off it's hinges:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/LilNewbie/HeroScape/100_1802.jpg

:D

Newb.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Classic pictures! The onslaught of Sentinels is visually amazing.

(talk about Vicodin-Land!)

And just how does Thorgrim manage to stand on top of the castle wall like that? What does he do next? Swan dive onto the back of the Sentinel? :D

[LilNewbie]

He was the only one that noticed DW7K and was trying to stop him (it's an action scene!)

Newb.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

He was the only one that noticed DW7K and was trying to stop him (it's an action scene!)

Newb.


I noticed he's not in the following pictures. Must've died trying to stop the exlploding Deathwalker. Poor Thorgrim...

[markwars]

For me the wording on the Hounds card that specifically mentions the word "figure" is the ender for me. The door is not a figure.

[Nwojedi]

You phrased it in a way that supports your bias....here's a quote. "Thi s is not a poll whether or not you think it's stupid if the plague can attack the door." By planting the idea that some might find it stupid, you put a bit of influence in the minds of those voting. You also put forward arguments outside of the rules, giving reasoning that prevented people from appraoching it with fresh minds. Just my two cents.

It's not a big deal or anything, it's just not the way it should be phrased when sent to Hasbro. It needs to be completely neutral in phrasing, presenting only the rules as they are given to us, and asking what the deal is.

I hate you :P

[netherspirit]

For me the wording on the Hounds card that specifically mentions the word "figure" is the ender for me. The door is not a figure.

Read just about every special attack in the game...you will see the word figure.

[GaryLASQ]

For me the wording on the Hounds card that specifically mentions the word "figure" is the ender for me. The door is not a figure.
markwars, not trying to flame you or anything but you need to read the castle rule book word for word.

you can't get hung up on the word "figure" in special attacks or in special abilities that only inflict wounds. a "destructible object" (like the door) is to be treated just like a figure under these circumstances. (along with normal attacks.)

just replace "figure" with "figure or destructible object" in these cases.

[Riggler]

If that were true there would be no need for them to put the section in the rules about special powers that cause wounds. There are only 2 types of attacks. Normal and Special. If they didn't want special power to affect the door they wouldn't have put that in there.


I agree.

For me the wording on the Hounds card that specifically mentions the word "figure" is the ender for me. The door is not a figure.

I'm sorry. I strongly disagree with this line of thinking. Special attacks and special powers that cause wounds say figure also. And the door rules say it is basically attacked as a figure.

If you take the name of the hounds special ability and the flavor text and the concept of the power, I like most on here, don't think it makes much sense to be able to impact the door.

But that's not the question here. The way the rules are written for the castle door it is perfectly clear to me that the hound's plague ability can impact the door. Now maybe this was on purpose and maybe it wasn't or maybe it was an oversite. It doesn't really matter until there is official word otherwise. Becasue the way it is written right now, the hound's plauge ability works, whether you like it or not.

[Jandars_Hope]

Edited:Ok ive just cottoned on! Ignore me (but not in a rude way)

[netherspirit]

the door is not a living creature thus it doesn't get the virus! common sense!

ARG! :roll:

[countblah]

Part of the trouble is that Sudema (deceased mummy lady) can get this virus too...

[netherspirit]

If everyone can stop looking at it as a plague or a virus or an infection or anything else FLAVORFUL and start looking at it as a GAME MECHANIC. Its an ability that causes wounds. Plain and simple.

[Jandars_Hope]

Ok!Ok! I'm tired and not reading clearly but i've editted my post because i get it now! *Don't Panic*

[GaryLASQ]

If everyone can stop looking at it as a plague or a virus or an infection or anything else FLAVORFUL and start looking at it as a GAME MECHANIC. Its an ability that causes wounds. Plain and simple.we need a page on this site that rewrites all the specials without the "flavor" and just reduces them to algebra. where's mathguy when you need him!

[ultradoug]

dot hack/infection!

[Su-Bak-Na]

Yes I do in the rules it explains that special abillities don't work IF they destroy the target imediatly like Sharpshoot and Stare of Stone. So in turn I think Plague, Paralizing Stare, and any other abilities like this will work on the Castle door, if anyone would like to argue on this I will reread the section of the rules that talks about this and if I'm wrong will exept this.

I hope the next response doesn't just say "Your wrong." State your reason for saying this please.

[netherspirit]

Yes I do in the rules it explains that special abillities don't work IF they destroy the target imediatly like Sharpshoot and Stare of Stone. So in turn I think Plague, Paralizing Stare, and any more figures with abilities like this will work on the Castle door, if anyone would like to argue on this I will reread the section of the rules that talks about this and if I'm wrong will exept this.

I hope the next response doesn't just say "Your wrong." State your reason for saying this please.

You're wrong. :P

It says special abilities that ONLY cause wounds. Paralyzing Stare does not cause wounds. The only specials that are up for question are DW7K's Self-Destruct and The Plague, I think those are the only ones.

[noodles]

My answer is no.

[netherspirit]

My answer is no.

Care to elaborate as to why you think the rules don't allow it?

[Su-Bak-Na]

Yes I do in the rules it explains that special abillities don't work IF they destroy the target imediatly like Sharpshoot and Stare of Stone. So in turn I think Plague, Paralizing Stare, and any more figures with abilities like this will work on the Castle door, if anyone would like to argue on this I will reread the section of the rules that talks about this and if I'm wrong will exept this.

I hope the next response doesn't just say "Your wrong." State your reason for saying this please.

You're wrong. :P

It says special abilities that ONLY cause wounds. Paralyzing Stare does not cause wounds. The only specials that are up for question are DW7K's Self-Destruct and The Plague, I think those are the only ones.

Ok I made a mistake there. I hope no one thinks I'm stupind now, but now understanding this i think the Plague would work still.

[MacG]

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

The door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack.

I don't think you "heard" me, Nether. Maybe the Vicodin.

Point #1 : I still think the rules AS WRITTEN do not allow either plague or DW7k to work.

The only time the destructible object is affected like a figure is when it is targeted and attacked. The destructible object may be TARGETED OR ATTACKED by special powers. Plague and DW7K neither target nor attack, therefore you cannot simply say "They cause wounds, so they work." In that case, I declare that TREES can be affected by plague. It doesn't say anywhere that I can't treat them like a figure. Do you see my point? (I'm aware trees have no stated wounds, so it can be argued that the team didn't INTEND me to plague them, but intent is so subjective.)

Point #2: It sounds like the design team WANTED plague and DW7k to work, because they then make sure that you can't use special abilities to just blow the door down or turn it stone, or whatever. I think the answer we'll get is that the plague DOES work on a door.

Since I have that Marro Nanoplague Hypothesis to explain why it works on undead and other Marro but not on soulborgs, I intend to think of it Marro Nanoplague ripping the heck out of the wood in the door (organic, doncha know) when the hounds are near.

[countblah]

If everyone can stop looking at it as a plague or a virus or an infection or anything else FLAVORFUL and start looking at it as a GAME MECHANIC. Its an ability that causes wounds. Plain and simple.

Part of the appeal of the game is that it's full of flava. Granted, the storyline is teh suxxors, but having the flavour is neat. We're looking at it as a plague because it's called a plague on the card. It's not called

Game Mechanic 14: When this blob of plastic is next to another blob of plastic, roll a 20-sided lump of plastic to see if you remove said blob of plastic.

Flava! Spice! Zest! Also, Making logical sense within the bounds of the game. Whether the designers foresaw this, or whether it's intended or whatever, it isn't consistent with the internal logic of the game, which means more to me than exploiting the wording on the cards.

[Roufus]

wait... whats that?
In the kitchen...
My door...
its coughing!
I think it might be sick!

[bunjee]

I'll be fine with what ever the *official* rulling comes down to on this. As it stands, I would probably accept wounds rolled on the door by the hounds. No, it wouldn't be an effective way to destroy the door, but if you were planning to attack the door with the hounds, it could help.

The only time the destructible object is affected like a figure is when it is targeted and attacked. The destructible object may be TARGETED OR ATTACKED by special powers. Plague and DW7K neither target nor attack, therefore you cannot simply say "They cause wounds, so they work." In that case, I declare that TREES can be affected by plague. It doesn't say anywhere that I can't treat them like a figure. Do you see my point? (I'm aware trees have no stated wounds, so it can be argued that the team didn't INTEND me to plague them, but intent is so subjective.)
Trees are a bad example to use. They are not destructible objects with hit points. Perhaps there will be future units (like the custom Elstree and I put together) that can remove map elements such as trees and ruins, but for this discussion, it just doesn't apply. Odd thing is that I know you know that, so I'm not sure why you used the example.

Can someone please put together a proposed question to post into the Rules question to Hasbro thread? Don't send it yet, please, just post wording so we can clarify it. I'm going to try, but I have plans to go spend time with my mom tonight so I may not get through all the reasonings in the article here.

[Hahnarama]

If everyone can stop looking at it as a plague or a virus or an infection or anything else FLAVORFUL and start looking at it as a GAME MECHANIC. Its an ability that causes wounds. Plain and simple.

I have to disagree on this one. It's not an acid attack or fire, or shards of ice, or clubbing or machine guns. It's a virus/bacteria. That is why it does not effect soulborgs. I don't see it casuing the wood to weaken.

Just my $.02

[GaryLASQ]

it doesn't weaken the wood. there is no wood. there is no door. there is no plague.

it's an ability that causes a wound. if the d20 is >= 16 then put a wound marker on the destuctible object card.

[Wilkerson74]

I say no....the plague is designed...by the wording on the card...to affect FIGURES...not inanimate objects.

Maybe wave 6 will include some giant termites.

[Riggler]

If everyone can stop looking at it as a plague or a virus or an infection or anything else FLAVORFUL and start looking at it as a GAME MECHANIC. Its an ability that causes wounds. Plain and simple.

I have to disagree on this one. It's not an acid attack or fire, or shards of ice, or clubbing or machine guns. It's a virus/bacteria. That is why it does not effect soulborgs. I don't see it casuing the wood to weaken.

Just my $.02

This is like stepping right into the highway and getting hit by the Mack truck named "Those of us who say the plague works on the door."

When you are evaluating the game mechanics and rules logic of a game system you have to IGNORE flavor. The GLUE that holds game systems together is the math, formulas, and probability factors! The nouns and verbs are there to convey how this works. And the flavor is so as not to bore you to death and make you realize all you are doing is math, formulas and probability factors.

NOW FOR THE POINT, and why this is a good example. THE PLAUGE DOESN'T AFFECT SOULBORGS BECAUSE: designers did not want to create a common squad that could destory expensive (at the time) soulborg units simply by being adjacent to them! Remember at the time all the soulborgs only had 1 life. It's got nothing to do with the fact that soulborgs are made of metal.

Let's give the game designers a little credit here. You guys that are arguing the plague doesn't work on the door are doing so becaue you don't WANT it to work on the door. The rule is crystal clear.They would have specifically mentioned specifically pointed out plauge doesn't work. They covered it in the rules, so they didn't see a need to.

Let me break it down to you in logic terms:

Hound's Plague
Fact: It is a special power.
Fact: It only causes wounds.

Door rule: "The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds.

IF the Hound's Plague is a special power, and IF that special power only causes wounds, THEN the door may be attacked. Therefore the door may be attacked by the Hound's plague special power.

Arguement one against this: But the Hound's Plague ability says its a figure.

Counter: The rules also say that the door is basically treated as a figure. Everything else in the game used to destroy the door wouldn't work either because I'm pretty sure the base rules state when attacking you choose a figure to attack.

Arguement two against this: But it says attack, its a special power, so you are not choosing to attack.

Counter: Read the rule again: It uses the verb "be attacked" which has three objects. It can be attacked by a normal attack. It can be attacked by a special attack. It can be attacked by a special power. Therefore, IT CAN BE ATTACKED BY A SPECIAL POWER!

[thehandofzarquon]

If everyone can stop looking at it as a plague or a virus or an infection or anything else FLAVORFUL and start looking at it as a GAME MECHANIC. Its an ability that causes wounds. Plain and simple.

I have to disagree on this one. It's not an acid attack or fire, or shards of ice, or clubbing or machine guns. It's a virus/bacteria. That is why it does not effect soulborgs. I don't see it casuing the wood to weaken.

Just my $.02

This is like stepping right into the highway and getting hit by the Mack truck named "Those of us who say the plague works on the door."

When you are evaluating the game mechanics and rules logic of a game system you have to IGNORE flavor. The GLUE that holds game systems together is the math, formulas, and probability factors! The nouns and verbs are there to convey how this works. And the flavor is so as not to bore you to death and make you realize all you are doing is math, formulas and probability factors.

NOW FOR THE POINT, and why this is a good example. THE PLAUGE DOESN'T AFFECT SOULBORGS BECAUSE: designers did not want to create a common squad that could destory expensive (at the time) soulborg units simply by being adjacent to them! Remember at the time all the soulborgs only had 1 life. It's got nothing to do with the fact that soulborgs are made of metal.

Let's give the game designers a little credit here. You guys that are arguing the plague doesn't work on the door are doing so becaue you don't WANT it to work on the door. The rule is crystal clear.They would have specifically mentioned specifically pointed out plauge doesn't work. They covered it in the rules, so they didn't see a need to.

Let me break it down to you in logic terms:

Hound's Plague
Fact: It is a special power.
Fact: It only causes wounds.

Door rule: "The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds.

IF the Hound's Plague is a special power, and IF that special power only causes wounds, THEN the door may be attacked. Therefore the door may be attacked by the Hound's plague special power.

Arguement one against this: But the Hound's Plague ability says its a figure.

Counter: The rules also say that the door is basically treated as a figure. Everything else in the game used to destroy the door wouldn't work either because I'm pretty sure the base rules state when attacking you choose a figure to attack.

Arguement two against this: But it says attack, its a special power, so you are not choosing to attack.

Counter: Read the rule again: It uses the verb "be attacked" which has three objects. It can be attacked by a normal attack. It can be attacked by a special attack. It can be attacked by a special power. Therefore, IT CAN BE ATTACKED BY A SPECIAL POWER!

I certainly agree that, by the rules, plague will work against the Door. However, I personally don't like that "flavour"/rules. I'll probably reword the marrden's plague to not affect Undead nor destructible objects... but that's just me.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, I honestly wouldn't be suprised if the ruling did come back that plague didn't work on the Door. But maybe I'm just cynical after the Taelord "Disengage" Flying, Taelord's cost, Double Space figures flipping taking 1 movement, Mimring and Q9 blocking their own LOS rulings, and the damn stupid rule that each army can have a copy of a Unique Squad or Hero.

[noodles]

I think it's kind of lame that the hound's plague could take out a non-living object. I think if you play that way, it's kind of being a rules lawyer. I hope the official ruling comes down that they can't be used like that.

I would support the hound's plague effecting people on the other side of the door and I totally would support DW8K going up and detonating himself and hurting the door. I'd be ok with DW9K shooting somebody next to the door and because the door is adjacent it can be hurt.

But plagues? No I'm not buying it. Perhaps I should go back and reread the entire thread but my initial response is no.

[noodles]

For the argument to stop looking at it from a story standpoint and start looking it as a game mechanic, I'm sorry but the story an integral part of the game for a lot of people?

Yeah I don't want it to work and that's the basis of my argument. I understand from reading the above quote of the rules, it does appear that it should do damage. But it's still lame and I'll house rule it if goes the other way. And I don't think there's any right or wrong in this situation...I guess it really comes down to whether you want the story to have continuity or not.

[jaques]

I voted no, but then I realized I had jumped the gun.

(1) No literal reading of those rules can be interpreted to deny the plague as a means of damaging the door.

(2) Even from a "story" point of view, the plague is obviously not a traditional viral or bacterial disease. No disease would begin to cause damage so quickly (let's all say it together: "incubation period") and once it started causing damage, no disease could be "cured" by simply stepping away from the source. So the plague has to be a magical or technological effect broadcast by the hounds, and its clear effect is to damage organic material in a rapid fashion. If the door is "logically" immune by way of being wooden, then any future plant-based figures will also be immune. Soulborgs are immune by virtue of being inorganic.

[LordRaidor]

Here's what we have...

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack.

So, ...What Special Abilities will and won't work against a DOOR? Here are my opinions, and why...

All of the following WILL work, because they require you to choose a figure to attack, or spaces to be affected by the Special Attack, and they potentially inflict "wounds"...: Explosion
Fire Line
Grenade
Ice Shard Breath
Queglix Gun
Shaolin Assault
Shotgun Blast
Wild Swing

The following should NOT work, because they do not inflict "wounds": Chomp
Crippling Gaze
Mind Shackle
Paralyzing Stare
Poisonous Acid Breath
Rod of Negation
Sharpshooter
Stare of Stone
Whip

These should NOT work, because they fail to meet the bolded prerequisites: Giant Killer - When Sir Denrick attacks huge figures...
Healing Touch - ...choose a wounded Hero figure adjacent to Kelda...
(Improved) Cyberclaw - All small, medium (or large) opponent's figures that...
(Though I do think holding the door shut with the Improved Cyberclaw would be cool - ^_^ )
Throw - ..choose one small or medium non-flying figure...
Ullar Enhanced Rifle - ...Choose a non-adjacent small or medium figure...

These powers don't directly affect the Door, but would still be applicable against it...: First Assault (...rushing the door...)
Rapid Fire (...yes, you could conceivably blow the door to splinters this way...)
Sighting
Sword of Reckoning
The Drop (...could place Elites adjacent to the door; it's not a 'figure' unless being 'targeted and attacked'...)
Wait Then Fire
Zettian Targeting

...Which leaves us with only a few 'grey areas' in my opinion, which are naturally the point of this whole post... Bloodlust - I vote NO. It reads "For every opponent's figure a Tagawa Samurai destroys..." The rules for Doors clearly state that "Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked." It doesn't say that Doors are treated like figures at any other times, including boosting Samurai confidence. They didn't destroy a 'figure', they destroyed a 'destructible object', ...so no Purple Marker for the Tagawa. (and obvioulsy, kicking in a door isn't going to shed much 'blood' to lust over...) I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Blood Hungry - I vote NO. Same reasoning as above. Though Brunak "targeted and attacked" the door like a figure, ...he only destroyed a Door, ...not a figure. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Marro Plague - I vote NO. The power reads "...before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds..." Though it might inflict "wounds", it is very clearly before attacking. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. The door isn't being attacked, you're just seing how many figures are adjacent to your Hounds and rolling a die for each. Doors aren't 'figures'. Doors can be "targeted and attacked" like figures, but this power isn't "attacking", ...just rolling dice for adjacent 'figures', ...which a door clearly is NOT. so, ...no Plague damage for inanimate ('destructable') objects. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Self-Destruct - I vote YES. The power reads "...instead of attacking, Deathwalker may choose to self-destruct." I do realize that this is open to interpretation, but from my point of view, this clearly implies that the power is functioning during the "attack" portion of the turn, and would naturally be subject to all of the governing conditions thereof. Since the power can inflict "wounds", I would conclude that a Door would be "targeted and attacked" by this power just like any other 'figure'. So, ...assuming he rolls high, DW7K could land a decent number of wounds on a door. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^

To recap: I'd say you can't use Bloodlust, Blood Hungry, or Marro Plague on a Door, ...but you can use Self-Destruct. As Doc, Hahn, Noodles, and IMax have all pointed out, ...these are also the 'logical' interpretations for these powers based purely on their 'flavor' and a little bit of common sense, ...but I hope I have also justified my choices with a decent bit of 'mechanical objectivity' as well...

...For what it's worth. (...Wake up, Reaper...)

^_^
-LordRaidor-

[MacG]

Door rule: "The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. "

HandofZarquon, that's not a quote. That's YOUR RESTATEMENT of your opinion. You can't restate the rule in your own terms and then argue from that!

"Bad is evil, therefore, bad is evil!"

EDIT: Snip long argument. Never mind. Lord Raidor did it much better.

[noodles]

Here's what we have...

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack.

So, ...What Special Abilities will and won't work against a DOOR? Here are my opinions, and why...

All of the following WILL work, because they require you to choose a figure to attack, or spaces to be affected by the Special Attack, and they potentially inflict "wounds"...: Explosion
Fire Line
Grenade
Ice Shard Breath
Queglix Gun
Shaolin Assault
Shotgun Blast
Wild Swing

The following should NOT work, because they do not inflict "wounds": Chomp
Crippling Gaze
Mind Shackle
Paralyzing Stare
Poisonous Acid Breath
Rod of Negation
Sharpshooter
Stare of Stone
Whip

These should NOT work, because they fail to meet the bolded prerequisites: Giant Killer - When Sir Denrick attacks huge figures...
Healing Touch - ...choose a wounded Hero figure adjacent to Kelda...
(Improved) Cyberclaw - All small, medium (or large) opponent's figures that...
(Though I do think holding the door shut with the Improved Cyberclaw would be cool - ^_^ )
Throw - ..choose one small or medium non-flying figure...
Ullar Enhanced Rifle - ...Choose a non-adjacent small or medium figure...

These powers don't directly affect the Door, but would still be applicable against it...: First Assault (...rushing the door...)
Rapid Fire (...yes, you could conceivably blow the door to splinters this way...)
Sighting
Sword of Reckoning
The Drop (...could place Elites adjacent to the door; it's not a 'figure' unless being 'targeted and attacked'...)
Wait Then Fire
Zettian Targeting

...Which leaves us with only a few 'grey areas' in my opinion, which are naturally the point of this whole post... Bloodlust - I vote NO. It reads "For every opponent's figure a Tagawa Samurai destroys..." The rules for Doors clearly state that "Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked." It doesn't say that Doors are treated like figures at any other times, including boosting Samurai confidence. They didn't destroy a 'figure', they destroyed a 'destructible object', ...so no Purple Marker for the Tagawa. (and obvioulsy, kicking in a door isn't going to shed much 'blood' to lust over...) I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Blood Hungry - I vote NO. Same reasoning as above. Though Brunak "targeted and attacked" the door like a figure, ...he only destroyed a Door, ...not a figure. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Marro Plague - I vote NO. The power reads "...before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds..." Though it might inflict "wounds", it is very clearly before attacking. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. The door isn't being attacked, you're just seing how many figures are adjacent to your Hounds and rolling a die for each. Doors aren't 'figures'. Doors can be "targeted and attacked" like figures, but this power isn't "attacking", ...just rolling dice for adjacent 'figures', ...which a door clearly is NOT. so, ...no Plague damage for inanimate ('destructable') objects. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Self-Destruct - I vote YES. The power reads "...instead of attacking, Deathwalker may choose to self-destruct." I do realize that this is open to interpretation, but from my point of view, this clearly implies that the power is functioning during the "attack" portion of the turn, and would naturally be subject to all of the governing conditions thereof. Since the power can inflict "wounds", I would conclude that a Door would be "targeted and attacked" by this power just like any other 'figure'. So, ...assuming he rolls high, DW7K could land a decent number of wounds on a door. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^

To recap: I'd say you can't use Bloodlust, Blood Hungry, or Marro Plague on a Door, ...but you can use Self-Destruct. As Doc, Hahn, Noodles, and IMax have all pointed out, ...these are also the 'logical' interpretations for these powers based purely on their 'flavor' and a little bit of common sense, ...but I hope I have also justified my choices with a decent bit of 'mechanical objectivity' as well...

...For what it's worth. (...Wake up, Reaper...)

^_^
-LordRaidor-

Great Post!

[Su-Bak-Na]

Here's what we have...

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack.

So, ...What Special Abilities will and won't work against a DOOR? Here are my opinions, and why...

All of the following WILL work, because they require you to choose a figure to attack, or spaces to be affected by the Special Attack, and they potentially inflict "wounds"...: Explosion
Fire Line
Grenade
Ice Shard Breath
Queglix Gun
Shaolin Assault
Shotgun Blast
Wild Swing

The following should NOT work, because they do not inflict "wounds": Chomp
Crippling Gaze
Mind Shackle
Paralyzing Stare
Poisonous Acid Breath
Rod of Negation
Sharpshooter
Stare of Stone
Whip

These should NOT work, because they fail to meet the bolded prerequisites: Giant Killer - When Sir Denrick attacks huge figures...
Healing Touch - ...choose a wounded Hero figure adjacent to Kelda...
(Improved) Cyberclaw - All small, medium (or large) opponent's figures that...
(Though I do think holding the door shut with the Improved Cyberclaw would be cool - ^_^ )
Throw - ..choose one small or medium non-flying figure...
Ullar Enhanced Rifle - ...Choose a non-adjacent small or medium figure...

These powers don't directly affect the Door, but would still be applicable against it...: First Assault (...rushing the door...)
Rapid Fire (...yes, you could conceivably blow the door to splinters this way...)
Sighting
Sword of Reckoning
The Drop (...could place Elites adjacent to the door; it's not a 'figure' unless being 'targeted and attacked'...)
Wait Then Fire
Zettian Targeting

...Which leaves us with only a few 'grey areas' in my opinion, which are naturally the point of this whole post... Bloodlust - I vote NO. It reads "For every opponent's figure a Tagawa Samurai destroys..." The rules for Doors clearly state that "Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked." It doesn't say that Doors are treated like figures at any other times, including boosting Samurai confidence. They didn't destroy a 'figure', they destroyed a 'destructible object', ...so no Purple Marker for the Tagawa. (and obvioulsy, kicking in a door isn't going to shed much 'blood' to lust over...) I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Blood Hungry - I vote NO. Same reasoning as above. Though Brunak "targeted and attacked" the door like a figure, ...he only destroyed a Door, ...not a figure. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Marro Plague - I vote NO. The power reads "...before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds..." Though it might inflict "wounds", it is very clearly before attacking. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. The door isn't being attacked, you're just seing how many figures are adjacent to your Hounds and rolling a die for each. Doors aren't 'figures'. Doors can be "targeted and attacked" like figures, but this power isn't "attacking", ...just rolling dice for adjacent 'figures', ...which a door clearly is NOT. so, ...no Plague damage for inanimate ('destructable') objects. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Self-Destruct - I vote YES. The power reads "...instead of attacking, Deathwalker may choose to self-destruct." I do realize that this is open to interpretation, but from my point of view, this clearly implies that the power is functioning during the "attack" portion of the turn, and would naturally be subject to all of the governing conditions thereof. Since the power can inflict "wounds", I would conclude that a Door would be "targeted and attacked" by this power just like any other 'figure'. So, ...assuming he rolls high, DW7K could land a decent number of wounds on a door. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^

To recap: I'd say you can't use Bloodlust, Blood Hungry, or Marro Plague on a Door, ...but you can use Self-Destruct. As Doc, Hahn, Noodles, and IMax have all pointed out, ...these are also the 'logical' interpretations for these powers based purely on their 'flavor' and a little bit of common sense, ...but I hope I have also justified my choices with a decent bit of 'mechanical objectivity' as well...

...For what it's worth. (...Wake up, Reaper...)

^_^
-LordRaidor-

I'lll have to agree with you on this one, very good post.

[Nwojedi]

Here's what we have...

INSERT LARGE PARAGRAPH HERE!
^_^
-LordRaidor-


Well said. You have to look at this in MTG terms. Break it down in Phases, and the door is not effected.

Take the rules and disregard the order, and they can effect it. It's a horse a piece really. I'm kinda excited to see what the offical ruling will be. And get my $5 from gary :)

[Agent Minivann]

11 pages? In one day? Holy crap Batman!

I would say that the answer IS in the text.

The door text...instead of choosing a figure to attack...This tells me the door is not a figure. The text also says that it is a destructible object...still not a figure.

The hounds text...roll for each figure adjacent to any hounds you control...of course it doesn't say object because of the whole time thing. There is the whole idea of door's don't catch cold, but we don't even need to get into real world logic. The door text doesn't make the door a figure, and the plague affects figures.

EDIT: I neglected to point out that I didn't read through the whole thread, so I may be repeating what many others have said.

[Turtleboy]

Nicely said Lord Raidor :)

I think you hit thE Nail on the head !!

[Kepler]

Marro Plague - I vote NO. The power reads "...before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds..." Though it might inflict "wounds", it is very clearly before attacking. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. The door isn't being attacked, you're just seing how many figures are adjacent to your Hounds and rolling a die for each. Doors aren't 'figures'. Doors can be "targeted and attacked" like figures, but this power isn't "attacking", ...just rolling dice for adjacent 'figures', ...which a door clearly is NOT. so, ...no Plague damage for inanimate ('destructable') objects. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Self-Destruct - I vote YES. The power reads "...instead of attacking, Deathwalker may choose to self-destruct." I do realize that this is open to interpretation, but from my point of view, this clearly implies that the power is functioning during the "attack" portion of the turn, and would naturally be subject to all of the governing conditions thereof. Since the power can inflict "wounds", I would conclude that a Door would be "targeted and attacked" by this power just like any other 'figure'. So, ...assuming he rolls high, DW7K could land a decent number of wounds on a door. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^[/list]

There is no requirement that "special powers that only cause wounds" be during the attack phase.

[Aranas]

Here's what we have...

INSERT LARGE PARAGRAPH HERE!
^_^
-LordRaidor-


Like said before: Good argument LordRaidor!

[Roufus]

I change my vote.
This is the same logic that has people arguing that if you paralyze stare Sgt. Drake he can't use his thorian speed and therefor be shot.

Doesn't matter what the flavoring is. It's just a game.

[netherspirit]

Well said. You have to look at this in MTG terms. Break it down in Phases, and the door is not effected.

Except this ISNT MtG. This is Heroscape. 3 Phases: Reveal Order Marker, Move, Attack.

[Aranas]

I change my vote.
This is the same logic that has people arguing that if you paralyze stare Sgt. Drake he can't use his thorian speed and therefor be shot.

Doesn't matter what the flavoring is. It's just a game.

BTW, Roufus, that argument has been settled (MBS Vs Drake):
http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=985&start=20

[Riggler]

I know some don't like to think of a game system simply as math and formulas and bell curves, but in reality that's what most of them are, Heroscape included.

The Marrden Hounds could just as easily be broken down to Army Unit 31 with special power 76. They could have easily named them Hellhounds. And they could have called their ability Flaming Skin and left everything else as is. And I don't think there would be this debate going on.

This debate is based on emotion and not logic. Remember this game is made for kids, to be understood by kids, and to be played by kids. Don't read too much into the rules. Don't think about them too long. KISS.

[LordRaidor]

...Except this ISNT MtG. This is Heroscape. 3 Phases: Reveal Order Marker, Move, Attack.

Very good point Nether. So when, then, does the "Marro Plague" power get used? It says "before attacking", and it's obviously after you've revealed your order marker, so my perspective is that it occurs during (at the very end of) the "Move" Phase...

The Castle Rules state that the Door "may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is". It doesn't say OR, it says AND. In order to "target" it like a figure, you also have to be "attacking" it like a figure. Since you're still finishing up your "Move" Phase (you're still "before attacking"), you're just looking for adjacent figures to see if they'll be affected by your Special Power, ...and a Door isn't... ^_^

I am well aware that my perspective is far from iron-clad, but I don't really believe that the arguments to the contrary are all that solid either. I'm not taking an "I'm-right-you're-wrong" stance, nor am I trying to change anyone else's mind on the matter, ...I was just stating which side of the fence I'm on, and why. ^_^

I'm sure an 'official' ruling from Hasbro will eventually clear things up, but until then, ...all the Castle Doors in my house have had their Plague Vaccinations...

[Rigler also makes a good point with his "Army Unit 31 - special power 76 - Hellhounds - Flaming Skin" perspective. Had this been the case, we'd probably all agree that door is affected, ...BUT I think we would all still be here debating why Brunak and Obsidian Guards aren't immune to "Flaming Skin" instead. ...'Scapers will be 'Scapers...]

^_^
-LordRaidor-

[netherspirit]

...Except this ISNT MtG. This is Heroscape. 3 Phases: Reveal Order Marker, Move, Attack.

Very good point Nether. So when, then, does the "Marro Plague" power get used? It says "before attacking", and it's obviously after you've revealed your order marker, so my perspective is that it occurs during (at the very end of) the "Move" Phase...

The Castle Rules state that the Door "may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is". It doesn't say OR, it says AND. In order to "target" it like a figure, you also have to be "attacking" it like a figure.

You can't attack with a special power that isn't a special attack. Why would they put the phrase about Special Powers that only cause wounds in there? Special Powers are not attacks, how can any of them affect the door if it can only be ATTACKED?

[bunjee]

...Except this ISNT MtG. This is Heroscape. 3 Phases: Reveal Order Marker, Move, Attack.

Very good point Nether. So when, then, does the "Marro Plague" power get used? It says "before attacking", and it's obviously after you've revealed your order marker, so my perspective is that it occurs during (at the very end of) the "Move" Phase...

The Castle Rules state that the Door "may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is". It doesn't say OR, it says AND. In order to "target" it like a figure, you also have to be "attacking" it like a figure. Since you're still finishing up your "Move" Phase (you're still "before attacking"), you're just looking for adjacent figures to see if they'll be affected by your Special Power, ...and a Door isn't... ^_^

Marrden hounds power is clear about the when: After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die...

Now, again, I don't care which way the ruling goes on this. But I am getting bothered by the focus on the word figure. As has been mentioned, almost all the specials refer to the word figure, and the castle door rules say "Instead of choosing a figure to attack, a player may target the Door as a Destructible Object" ... "The door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds"
In all evidence, the door is intended to be considered a figure. I'll find it interesting if a ruling comes down to the contrary, as that would render almost any special useless because of the word "figure"

I am more inclined to discuss the target part of all this. But it would really bother me if DW7K couldn't self-destruct and cause damage to the door. For me, moving next to something so as to cause it harm from your inherent ability is a method of targeting.


I'm just glad that none of the tourney's for Gencon will have castles and doors. I'm not going to get worried about this rule until after Gencon and I have castles in hand. And even then, I'll probably just agree pre-game with who ever I'm playing with what the door status is going to be.

[jcb231]

I vote yes on Bloodlust and Bloodhungry, because destroying a door is the same as destroying a figure, in terms of normal attacks or special attacks like that.

You might just as well say that the Tagawa shouldn't get a marker for killing a soulborg...no blood spilled there either. I think that kicking the crap out of the door just makes them all the lustier for blood. ARRRR!!! SAMURAI SMASH PUNY HUMANS!!!!

[Grungebob]

...Except this ISNT MtG. This is Heroscape. 3 Phases: Reveal Order Marker, Move, Attack.

Very good point Nether. So when, then, does the "Marro Plague" power get used? It says "before attacking", and it's obviously after you've revealed your order marker, so my perspective is that it occurs during (at the very end of) the "Move" Phase...

The Castle Rules state that the Door "may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is". It doesn't say OR, it says AND. In order to "target" it like a figure, you also have to be "attacking" it like a figure. Since you're still finishing up your "Move" Phase (you're still "before attacking"), you're just looking for adjacent figures to see if they'll be affected by your Special Power, ...and a Door isn't... ^_^

Marrden hounds power is clear about the when: After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die...

Now, again, I don't care which way the ruling goes on this. But I am getting bothered by the focus on the word figure. As has been mentioned, almost all the specials refer to the word figure, and the castle door rules say "Instead of choosing a figure to attack, a player may target the Door as a Destructible Object" ... "The door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds"
In all evidence, the door is intended to be considered a figure. I'll find it interesting if a ruling comes down to the contrary, as that would render almost any special useless because of the word "figure"

I am more inclined to discuss the target part of all this. But it would really bother me if DW7K couldn't self-destruct and cause damage to the door. For me, moving next to something so as to cause it harm from your inherent ability is a method of targeting.


I'm just glad that none of the tourney's for Gencon will have castles and doors. I'm not going to get worried about this rule until after Gencon and I have castles in hand. And even then, I'll probably just agree pre-game with who ever I'm playing with what the door status is going to be.I am thinking that they may not want to use the term figure as then a whole bunch of other abilities and problems could come up. You might have players wanting to use Carr's ghost walk to pass through the door etc..

[bunjee]

I am thinking that they may not want to use the term figure as then a whole bunch of other abilities and problems could come up. You might have players wanting to use Carr's ghost walk to pass through the door etc..

Ooooooooooo...

[Riggler]

[quote="netherspirit Why would they put the phrase about Special Powers that only cause wounds in there? Special Powers are not attacks, how can any of them affect the door if it can only be ATTACKED?[/quote]

That's why the arguement focusing on the word attacked (in all of it's bolded glory doesn't hold water. Good point Netherspirit.

[Kepler]

...Except this ISNT MtG. This is Heroscape. 3 Phases: Reveal Order Marker, Move, Attack.

Very good point Nether. So when, then, does the "Marro Plague" power get used? It says "before attacking", and it's obviously after you've revealed your order marker, so my perspective is that it occurs during (at the very end of) the "Move" Phase...

The Castle Rules state that the Door "may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is". It doesn't say OR, it says AND. In order to "target" it like a figure, you also have to be "attacking" it like a figure.

You can't attack with a special power that isn't a special attack. Why would they put the phrase about Special Powers that only cause wounds in there? Special Powers are not attacks, how can any of them affect the door if it can only be ATTACKED?

Good point.

If the "targeted and attacked" phrase means what LR says it means then that would contradict the phrase about "special abilities that only cuase wounds" can damage doors.

[Kepler]

I am thinking that they may not want to use the term figure as then a whole bunch of other abilities and problems could come up. You might have players wanting to use Carr's ghost walk to pass through the door etc..

That's why the rules state that doors are treated as figures for attacking and damaging purposes. It doesn't say treat it as a figure for all special abilities. So Carr's ability would not work.

[noodles]

I've been playing a house rule that Agent Carr can walk through anything and I've never really had a complaint with it from anybody. This would include trees, castle walls, other figures, etc...

[GaryLASQ]

I know some don't like to think of a game system simply as math and formulas and bell curves, but in reality that's what most of them are, Heroscape included.

The Marrden Hounds could just as easily be broken down to Army Unit 31 with special power 76. They could have easily named them Hellhounds. And they could have called their ability Flaming Skin and left everything else as is. And I don't think there would be this debate going on.

This debate is based on emotion and not logic. Remember this game is made for kids, to be understood by kids, and to be played by kids. Don't read too much into the rules. Don't think about them too long. KISS.

THANK YOU Riggler! the game system is numeric ultimately. the name Marrden Hound is insignificant. call the card for them JO04 (JO04, JO05, JO06 for each sculpt if you wish). the word Plague is insignificant. call it JO04-SP2.

sure the names and story line are necessary for enjoying the game but you don't need to cling to them in order to play the game by the bloody rules.

the words Figure and Destructable Object (DestObj) are significant and interchangeable under the right condition. it doesn't matter if DestObj FA01 (the Fortress Door) is made of wood or metal or glass or whatever.

DestObj FA01 should be treated as a figure when it is being attacked and in this case "attacked" includes "special powers that ONLY cause wounds". the rules says nothing about instead of attacking or before attacking, although i think maybe it should to help clarify.

JO04-SP2 is a special power for figure JO04 that ONLY causes a wound. therefore it can wound DestObj FA01. and DestObj FA01-SP1 (Reinforced Defense) cannot be used because JO04-SP2 is not a normal attack.

i'm tempted to boil down the rulebook, army cards, glyph cards and now destructible object cards to a small handful of significant words and numbers and call it NumeralScape! :)

[thehandofzarquon]

Door rule: "The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. "

HandofZarquon, that's not a quote. That's YOUR RESTATEMENT of your opinion. You can't restate the rule in your own terms and then argue from that!

"Bad is evil, therefore, bad is evil!"

EDIT: Snip long argument. Never mind. Lord Raidor did it much better.

Um.... when did I ever quote/restate rules? All I said was that I agree the plague certainly affects the door by the rules, but I don't personally like that due to the flavor... the same way I don't like Undead figures to be affected by the plague, but it is certainly in the rules...

[noodles]

4 8 15 16 23 42 Numberscape.

[Roufus]

I wish they'd hurry up and give a ruling so I won't hear rehashes of the same two viewpoints over and over and over.

[bunjee]

I doubt they'll give a ruling if it isn't sent in. Has anyone written up proposed wording and posted it in the Rules to Hasbro Thread?

[Doc_Savage]

I doubt they'll give a ruling if it isn't sent in. Has anyone written up proposed wording and posted it in the Rules to Hasbro Thread?

I think we'll get a ruling far faster at Gencon.........................

Perhaps all the outstanding rules questions should be asked at Gencon. I kinda thought that's what Oogie was doing at Comic-Con........

[ultradoug]

so meny numbers @_@

[bunjee]

I doubt they'll give a ruling if it isn't sent in. Has anyone written up proposed wording and posted it in the Rules to Hasbro Thread?

I think we'll get a ruling far faster at Gencon.........................

Perhaps all the outstanding rules questions should be asked at Gencon. I kinda thought that's what Oogie was doing at Comic-Con........

That is my plan, but I still want to send things through the normal channel as then they have documentation of the question for their needs in rules revisions and FAQ updates.

[toddrew]

That is my plan, but I still want to send things through the normal channel as then they have documentation of the question for their needs in rules revisions and FAQ updates.

Excuse the slight threadjack: It was good to hear/read in Oogie's interview of Craig (http://heroscapers.com/?p=22) that the reason the questions to Chris haven't been getting answered is that they were piling up on his desk (presumably while the castles, TV, Marvel, and what's to come were being developed/prepped for shipping) and will get attention at some point. Probably best to get some quick answers at the cons for the quick fix, if possible, and also send them through Chris.

[noodles]

We should really comprise a list of questions for a possible interview with them so that at the cons we can maximize the potential of getting answers.

[feekonea]

I think the rules will allow it, but I dont like it.

[LordRaidor]

You can't attack with a special power that isn't a special attack. Why would they put the phrase about Special Powers that only cause wounds in there? Special Powers are not attacks, how can any of them affect the door if it can only be ATTACKED?

Alrighty, ...[pause]... at this point I'm going to bow out of this discussion. ^_^ There have been some very good points made (I.M.O.) on both sides of the table, but I must fall-back on one of my old standards for any conversation: the difference between a 'debate' and an 'argument'. A 'debate' (in my opinion) is between two or more individuals with open minds but differing viewpoints, each trying to present the merits of their own perspective in order to persuade the other party to abandon his own opinion in favor of the other. An 'argument', on the other hand, occurs between two or more individuals with differing viewpoints that are not subject to change. Thus the meaning of the phrase "not open for debate"...

'Debates' are fun for me, because the possibility exists that within the realm of a meeting of enlightened intellects, one or more opinions may change. You might convince someone to see things your way, or they might convince you to see things their way. This, to me, is a neat thing (...call me strange if you wish).

'Arguments' aren't fun for me, because nothing either party says or does is ever going to accomplish anything. Each person is solidly convinced of their own point of view, and is simply trying (in vain) to get the other person to change their mind (which isn't going to happen). Kind of akin to the old addage of 'arguing with a fence-post'. ...I have better thing to do with my time... ^_^

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Nether, whom I consider to be the de-facto 'leader' of the current "Plague-works-on-Doors" movement. I'm afraid that if I continue to assert my perspective, this 'debate' will degenerate into an 'argument', and I have no desire to see that happen. Besides not wanting to irk Nether, I just have better things to do with my time... ^_^

So, on my way out the door (no pun intended), I'll play the Devil's Advocate, just for grins, and make a simple rebuttal to counter my own voiced opinion...

So, ...exactly what do the Door rules mean when refering to "special powers that only cause wounds" but that aren't 'Special Attacks'? Let's see, ...reading through the short-list of current Specials, ...there is only ONE -- Marro Plague. That's right kiddies, ...NO OTHER PUBLISHED POWER that isn't already labeled 'Special Attack' will "only cause wounds". Therefor, the only possible reason Hasbro could have for including this clause would be to stress that Marro Plague DOES, in fact, affect Doors. Period. Plain and simple...

By that same logic, Self-Destruct will NOT affect the Door. Why? ...Because it doesn't "only cause wounds", ...it also destroys DW7K...

So, ...Marro Plague MUST affect Doors, ...and Self-Destruct WON'T. ...Any questions?

Whew, ...that was fun. ^_^
Sound good? ...Yep.
Do I subscribe? ...Nope. ^_^

I still personally feel that the Plague shouldn't affect doors, and Self-Destruct should. Bombs hurt doors, ...plain and simple. Doors aren't any more 'living' than Wulsinu or Soulborgs, and I don't see any good reason why a Marrden standing between a tree and a Castle Door could damage the Door but not the tree. Again, ...it just seems a little wonky to me (...call me silly).

My opinion isn't going to change, and neither is that of anyone here who believes the contrary. Moreover, I'm not even interested in changing anybody's opinion, ...I just wanted to make my reasoning available to anyone who hadn't made up their mind yet.

So there it is, ...take it or leave it. ^_^

An official ruling will eventually make all of our musings here irrelevant anyway. Regardless of what Hasbro says 'officially', the Castle Doors on my Battlefields aren't ever gonna take damage from Marro Plague, ...that's just silly...

...Ciao.

Now go enter the Codex#3 Big Give-Away: Zaravi Incursion Contest (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=1072), which has obsolutely nothing to do with Castles or Doors...

^_^
-LordRaidor-

[GaryLASQ]

.....by that same logic, Self-Destruct will NOT affect the Door. Why? ...Because it doesn't "only cause wounds", ...it also destroys DW7Kyep. the strictest reading of it does rule out Self-Destruct. however, by reading just a teeny tiny more into it, one may assume that "only cause wounds" actually means "only cause wounds to the destructible object." i'd like to think that's what is meant, and that's why Self-Destruct would work if you make that small assumption.

Excuse the slight threadjack: It was good to hear/read in Oogie's interview of Craig (http://heroscapers.com/?p=22) that the reason the questions to Chris haven't been getting answered is that they were piling up on his desk (presumably while the castles, TV, Marvel, and what's to come were being developed/prepped for shipping) and will get attention at some point. Probably best to get some quick answers at the cons for the quick fix, if possible, and also send them through Chris.
at least Craig has his priorities straight! :)
i'd rather he be working on new stuff than answering all those pesky questions (over half of which, the answer is fairly obvious). cool guy or not, i get the feeling he might not be thrilled about answering rules questions on the spot at GC without having time to think them through and bounce them off fellow designers. perhaps our approach should be "here are our questions listed in order of importance." on a piece of paper.

[bunjee]

cool guy or not, i get the feeling he{craig} might not be thrilled about answering rules questions on the spot at GC without having time to think them through and bounce them off fellow designers. perhaps our approach should be "here are our questions listed in order of importance." on a piece of paper.
"We have ways of making you talk"

Seriously, that is my plan, to take it very very easy on all this. There is a huge ol' con waiting for me and I plan to spend a good portion of my time on things not heroscape

[noodles]

cool guy or not, i get the feeling he{craig} might not be thrilled about answering rules questions on the spot at GC without having time to think them through and bounce them off fellow designers. perhaps our approach should be "here are our questions listed in order of importance." on a piece of paper.
"We have ways of making you talk"

Seriously, that is my plan, to take it very very easy on all this. There is a huge ol' con waiting for me and I plan to spend a good portion of my time on things not heroscape

I'm fairly sure he is prepped for these types of questions...I doubt we are catching him off guard. When they release new product, they read this site to see what we think. He knows the questions are coming.

[pashadowops]

I voted yes, the rules DO allow Plague to work on the door.

That doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it. I must admit I didn't read every single post on this thread. IMO, the way the rules are written leads me to believe that the Hasbro gurus must've forgotten about Plague. Again I must revert to D&D. Hasbro (owning WOC) must have some idea of how ridiculous having a disease affect an inanimate object would be. Let it be know that Plague will not affect Castle Doors in casa de pashadowops. Just think of me as Chaotic Good :wink: I will follow the rules for the most part until they just don't make sense. :D

[noodles]

So.....are we expecting an official ruling anytime soon?

[dickflea]

My answer is probably no.....but i polled "What Castle door? There's a Castle set comming out?" because the castle set seems to be taking a long time to be released.

[Faustus]

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

Marrden Hounds: After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds you control. If you roll a 16 or higher, that figure receives a wound. Soulborgs and Wulsinu are not affected by his marro plague.

"Instead of CHOOSING a figure to attack..." vs. "you must roll the 20-sided dice for each FIGURE adjacent to any Marrden Hounds"

The door is NOT a figure. You may choose to attack it INSTEAD of a figure. With the Marrdens, you are not choosing anything. It affects adjacent figures, not adjacent "destructible objects that you can choose to attack instead of figures."

BTW, self-destruct causes wounds. What they mean by "special powers that only cause wounds" is that you cannot use a paralyzing stare on the door to make it roll zero defense dice.

[netherspirit]

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

Marrden Hounds: After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds you control. If you roll a 16 or higher, that figure receives a wound. Soulborgs and Wulsinu are not affected by his marro plague.

"Instead of CHOOSING a figure to attack..." vs. "you must roll the 20-sided dice for each FIGURE adjacent to any Marrden Hounds"

The door is NOT a figure. You may choose to attack it INSTEAD of a figure. With the Marrdens, you are not choosing anything. It affects adjacent figures, not adjacent "destructible objects that you can choose to attack instead of figures."

BTW, self-destruct causes wounds. What they mean by "special powers that only cause wounds" is that you cannot use a paralyzing stare on the door to make it roll zero defense dice.

It has been ruled that the plague does in fact work on the door.

[Faustus]

Oh. Where?

[bunjee]

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

Marrden Hounds: After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds you control. If you roll a 16 or higher, that figure receives a wound. Soulborgs and Wulsinu are not affected by his marro plague.

"Instead of CHOOSING a figure to attack..." vs. "you must roll the 20-sided dice for each FIGURE adjacent to any Marrden Hounds"

The door is NOT a figure. You may choose to attack it INSTEAD of a figure. With the Marrdens, you are not choosing anything. It affects adjacent figures, not adjacent "destructible objects that you can choose to attack instead of figures."

BTW, self-destruct causes wounds. What they mean by "special powers that only cause wounds" is that you cannot use a paralyzing stare on the door to make it roll zero defense dice.

FYI, Faustus, someone asked Craig about this at gencon, and plague can affect the door. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.For all purposes, the door is to be considered a figure. People may not like it, but that is the ruling.

[Faustus]

Ah, thank you. I guess it makes the game simpler. Did he say that the self-destruct effects the door as well?

[ChaosChild]

Ah, thank you. I guess it makes the game simpler. Did he say that the self-destruct effects the door as well?

Yes, The Self-Destruct affects the door.

[Nwojedi]

i had to ask craig cuz Gary and I had a bet. I lost. Actually, the ONLY reason Plague works on the door, is because they wanted to have self destruct work, and they couldn't let one, without the other. :cry:

[nickmodaily]

If the Marro Plague can work on undead then why not a feakin' door?

Hooray for the ruling!! Thanks, Nether!

[Xotli]

I'm going with "no" (without reading all 15 pages of this topic).

Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door ...
Plague isn't an attack.

The Door may be attacked by ...
Plague isn't an attack.

After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure ...
The door isn't a figure (it says you can attack the door instead of a figure, but that doesn't mean the door is a figure).

[Xotli]

And, now, after reading the last page of the thread ...

We have quite a dilemma here, don't we? The wording seems pretty clear, just as I stated above. The quote

Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.
still doesn't do it: "targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is" is still not "is a figure".

BUT:
FYI, Faustus, someone asked Craig about this at gencon, and plague can affect the door.
So we have the intentions of the game designer here, and that should rightfully override the wording.

BUT:
i had to ask craig cuz Gary and I had a bet. I lost. Actually, the ONLY reason Plague works on the door, is because they wanted to have self destruct work, and they couldn't let one, without the other. Crying or Very sad
So the original intention of the game designer was that it shouldn't work. So AFAIC we're back where we started.

How about this: since we have to stretch the wording to make it work the way Craig wants it to, why can't we just stretch the wording on the Self-Destruct power as opposed to stretching the wording on the rules for attacking the door? For instance, we could say that Self-Destruct happens "instead of attacking", so that makes it more like an attack, while Marro Plague happens "after moving and before attacking", so that's not an attack at all.

It's still a stretch, of course ("instead of attacking" doesn't make it an attack any more than "much the same way" makes the door a figure), but at least we're stretching to get at what Craig originally wanted. (In fact, since it has to be a clarification from Hasbro/Craig either way, I'm really not sure why he's going with making the plague work on the door in the first place. Does he think we'll think that's more consistent? I dunno; perhaps some of us do think that. I don't, but hey, whatever floats your boat.)

I think this is the way I shall house rule it. Once my castles get here and it actually matters ...

[LilNewbie]

His intentions don't override his final decision, though. The final decision was to let the Plague hurt the door.

Newb.

[ptucker78]

Thank goodness for house rules lol

Any game I play there'll be a house rul that plague does not work, but it does look like the rules as they are do allow it.

[bunjee]

We did this last night, plague wasn't nearly as effective as the attack. Only got one wound on the (enemy) door with plague. Got one wound on our own door with plague :P

[netherspirit]

*cough* *cough*

[Jandars_Hope]

So 'Your' Marro Hounds can only affect 'Your' castle door right, because it would be your 'figure' (well at least when you have control of it), right?

[Su_Nan]

I would say no because a plague attack wouldnt affect a piece of wood.

On another note however, I dont see why throwing a figure into the castle door wouldnt cause wounds to the door.

[Rÿchean]

I don't know....logic says no....

but game mechanics say yes....

logic doesn't apply in the Heroscape world....

I went with yes, because that door is frustrating MOFO; anything that helps knock it down faster I am all for.

[LilNewbie]

They should have made the door a Soulborg which would end this discussion. :D

Newb.

[AmishBurrito]

They should have made the door a Soulborg which would end this discussion. :D

Newb.

yeah, and it should have a rapid fire special attack :D

[Teamski]

They should have made the door a Soulborg which would end this discussion. :D

Newb.

yeah, and it should have a rapid fire special attack :D

LOL!!!! :lol:

-Ski

[bunjee]

They should have made the door a Soulborg which would end this discussion. :D

Newb.But then it would only have 1 life and 20 defense die.

[Fallen Templar]

They should have made the door a Soulborg which would end this discussion. :D

Newb. :lol:

[LilNewbie]

They should have made the door a Soulborg which would end this discussion. :D

Newb.But then it would only have 1 life and 20 defense die.

LOL! Then the Deathwalker roll would become known as the Door roll!

"20 Dice and not one Shield!!!"

:D

Newb.

[Skeletor]

Here's what we have...

Targeting the door: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Attacking and Defending: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add height advantage where appropriate. The Door may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack.

So, ...What Special Abilities will and won't work against a DOOR? Here are my opinions, and why...

All of the following WILL work, because they require you to choose a figure to attack, or spaces to be affected by the Special Attack, and they potentially inflict "wounds"...: Explosion
Fire Line
Grenade
Ice Shard Breath
Queglix Gun
Shaolin Assault
Shotgun Blast
Wild Swing

The following should NOT work, because they do not inflict "wounds": Chomp
Crippling Gaze
Mind Shackle
Paralyzing Stare
Poisonous Acid Breath
Rod of Negation
Sharpshooter
Stare of Stone
Whip

These should NOT work, because they fail to meet the bolded prerequisites: Giant Killer - When Sir Denrick attacks huge figures...
Healing Touch - ...choose a wounded Hero figure adjacent to Kelda...
(Improved) Cyberclaw - All small, medium (or large) opponent's figures that...
(Though I do think holding the door shut with the Improved Cyberclaw would be cool - ^_^ )
Throw - ..choose one small or medium non-flying figure...
Ullar Enhanced Rifle - ...Choose a non-adjacent small or medium figure...

These powers don't directly affect the Door, but would still be applicable against it...: First Assault (...rushing the door...)
Rapid Fire (...yes, you could conceivably blow the door to splinters this way...)
Sighting
Sword of Reckoning
The Drop (...could place Elites adjacent to the door; it's not a 'figure' unless being 'targeted and attacked'...)
Wait Then Fire
Zettian Targeting

...Which leaves us with only a few 'grey areas' in my opinion, which are naturally the point of this whole post... Bloodlust - I vote NO. It reads "For every opponent's figure a Tagawa Samurai destroys..." The rules for Doors clearly state that "Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked." It doesn't say that Doors are treated like figures at any other times, including boosting Samurai confidence. They didn't destroy a 'figure', they destroyed a 'destructible object', ...so no Purple Marker for the Tagawa. (and obvioulsy, kicking in a door isn't going to shed much 'blood' to lust over...) I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Blood Hungry - I vote NO. Same reasoning as above. Though Brunak "targeted and attacked" the door like a figure, ...he only destroyed a Door, ...not a figure. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Marro Plague - I vote NO. The power reads "...before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to any Marrden Hounds..." Though it might inflict "wounds", it is very clearly before attacking. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. The door isn't being attacked, you're just seing how many figures are adjacent to your Hounds and rolling a die for each. Doors aren't 'figures'. Doors can be "targeted and attacked" like figures, but this power isn't "attacking", ...just rolling dice for adjacent 'figures', ...which a door clearly is NOT. so, ...no Plague damage for inanimate ('destructable') objects. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^
Self-Destruct - I vote YES. The power reads "...instead of attacking, Deathwalker may choose to self-destruct." I do realize that this is open to interpretation, but from my point of view, this clearly implies that the power is functioning during the "attack" portion of the turn, and would naturally be subject to all of the governing conditions thereof. Since the power can inflict "wounds", I would conclude that a Door would be "targeted and attacked" by this power just like any other 'figure'. So, ...assuming he rolls high, DW7K could land a decent number of wounds on a door. I can see the possible validity of arguments to the contrary, but this is my opinion, and it isn't going to change. ^_^

To recap: I'd say you can't use Bloodlust, Blood Hungry, or Marro Plague on a Door, ...but you can use Self-Destruct. As Doc, Hahn, Noodles, and IMax have all pointed out, ...these are also the 'logical' interpretations for these powers based purely on their 'flavor' and a little bit of common sense, ...but I hope I have also justified my choices with a decent bit of 'mechanical objectivity' as well...

...For what it's worth. (...Wake up, Reaper...)

^_^
-LordRaidor-

I agree and I'm fallowing this biznas

Great post A+++ Will read again!!

[Xotli]

His intentions don't override his final decision, though. The final decision was to let the Plague hurt the door.
But my point was, the whole purpose of listening to what Craig says when it disagrees with the official wording is to honor his intentions. So I vote that we honor his original intentions (which make a lot of sense), as opposed to the intentions expressd by his final decision (which, frankly, are very strange to me). But that's just my vote. I can understand if others disagree.

I don't know....logic says no....

but game mechanics say yes....
Actually, game mechanics say "no", as I and others pointed out (actually, LordRaidor's post is quite a bit more thorough than mine, so refer to that one). The only thing saying "yes" is Craig. And he apparently said both "yes" and "no" (or perhaps we should say he said "no, but then again, yes"). I'm viewing the ambiguity in Craig's separate comments to separate folks at GenCon as a serendipitous occurrence and I'm opportunistically using that to bolster my own POV. :twisted:

As always, YMMV.

Addendum:
Great post A+++ Will read again!!
I agree 100%. Yay LordRaidor.

[LilNewbie]

I agree about making a house rule for the plague vs. door. Just trying to consider the more "formal" tourney scene also.

Newb.

[thehandofzarquon]

His intentions don't override his final decision, though. The final decision was to let the Plague hurt the door.
But my point was, the whole purpose of listening to what Craig says when it disagrees with the official wording is to honor his intentions. So I vote that we honor his original intentions (which make a lot of sense), as opposed to the intentions expressd by his final decision (which, frankly, are very strange to me). But that's just my vote. I can understand if others disagree.

I don't know....logic says no....

but game mechanics say yes....
Actually, game mechanics say "no", as I and others pointed out (actually, LordRaidor's post is quite a bit more thorough than mine, so refer to that one). The only thing saying "yes" is Craig. And he apparently said both "yes" and "no" (or perhaps we should say he said "no, but then again, yes"). I'm viewing the ambiguity in Craig's separate comments to separate folks at GenCon as a serendipitous occurrence and I'm opportunistically using that to bolster my own POV. :twisted:

As always, YMMV.

Addendum:
Great post A+++ Will read again!!
I agree 100%. Yay LordRaidor.The wording must have been made vague enough to make sure that future powers made wouldn't have to be ruled on a case-by-case basis, instead they follow a rule: If they only deal wounds, it affects the door. That's the intent I see with the rules. :shrug:

[Xotli]

I agree about making a house rule for the plague vs. door. Just trying to consider the more "formal" tourney scene also.
Well, true enough. I never consider that, I spose ... I love my little house rules and would prolly hate playing without them all. :) That's the way I feel about my PnP RPG's as well.

The wording must have been made vague enough to make sure that future powers made wouldn't have to be ruled on a case-by-case basis, instead they follow a rule: If they only deal wounds, it affects the door. That's the intent I see with the rules. :shrug:
Well, maybe. But I would think making the rules vague on purpose wouldn't achieve that goal. For instance, if I were writing the rules text and those were my intentions, I might have put it this way:

Any effect that causes a wound can also cause a wound to a Destructible Object.
or somesuch. But the way it's written, it seems fairly clear (once you analyze it a bit) that neither Marro Plague nor Self-Destruct can work on the door. (Although LordRaidor's explanation was so compelling that I'm happy to let it convince me. :))

[Rÿchean]

I don't know....logic says no....

but game mechanics say yes....
Actually, game mechanics say "no", as I and others pointed out (actually, LordRaidor's post is quite a bit more thorough than mine, so refer to that one).
LordRaidor made a great post there is no doubt about it; it is a convincing argument and it makes sense. What you are saying also makes sense.

When I say game mechanics say no, you know I am referring to the "not taken out of context" way that it says a door can receive wounds.

The door may be attacked by a normal attak, a special attack, or a special power that only causes wounds.

Do I want the plague to cause damage to the door? I really don't care that much either way; it is fine with me. Like it or not, the game mechanics and rules say that plague does hurt the door. LordRaidor's interpretation is that a plague is not an attack; which is fine. Plague is a special power that causes wounds; and if it causes wounds I would consider that to be some sort of an offensive, some sort of an attack.

If the crux of the matter is trying to say that plague isn't an attack, then I probably should not have posted in this thread. I don't care to get into a debate on whether or not a special that causes wounds is not really an attack.

Craig said what he said...the rules say what they say....I am going with that no matter how great LordRaidor's post is (and I do think it is a great post)

have fun not plaguing the castle...

Ry

[LilNewbie]

...
have fun not plaguing the castle...

Ry

Excellent! Nice twist on the original quote. :D

Newb.

[philowar]

True, just wish the bios followed a stricter logic when relating to the game. Hasbro has used the bios in the past to explain how things work in the game (AE Drop for instance) and the bios should do that for all the figures.


The bios are nothing more than fluff. They are afterthoughts intended to tack some kind of theme or storyline onto figures conceived with nothing more than gameplay in mind. Who pays attention to them? Hell, I'd much rather come up with my own bios anyway, especially since I find most of the HS storyline patently stupid. For all it matters, they could have named "Marro Plague" "Hungry Snap" and it wouldn't have affected things one iota. Maybe the Marrden Hounds are going crazy next to the castle door, tearing at it with their powerful teeth and so forth.

[LilNewbie]

True, just wish the bios followed a stricter logic when relating to the game. Hasbro has used the bios in the past to explain how things work in the game (AE Drop for instance) and the bios should do that for all the figures.


The bios are nothing more than fluff. They are afterthoughts intended to tack some kind of theme or storyline onto figures conceived with nothing more than gameplay in mind. Who pays attention to them? Hell, I'd much rather come up with my own bios anyway, especially since I find most of the HS storyline patently stupid. For all it matters, they could have named "Marro Plague" "Hungry Snap" and it wouldn't have affected things one iota. Maybe the Marrden Hounds are going crazy next to the castle door, tearing at it with their powerful teeth and so forth.

True the bios are fluff but they could be used to explain how and why powers work (just like they explained the AE Drop.) It's a matter of taste as to whether the HS Storyline is good or not. I think the storyline is dealt with in a simple matter due to the target audience but taken to a more mature level could be some good stuff there.

Newb.

[Xotli]

The door may be attacked by a normal attak, a special attack, or a special power that only causes wounds.
True, but also:

Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target the Door as a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked.

Which actually precedes the earlier quote. The quotes and the wording seem to make clear that first you target, then you attack (just as you would with a normal attack, a special attack, and many special powers that only cause wounds, e.g. Sword of Reckoning).

LordRaidor's interpretation is that a plague is not an attack; which is fine. Plague is a special power that causes wounds; ...
Well, I wouldn't say that Plague not being an attack is an interpretation. And Plague is certainly a special power that causes wounds; no argument there. But I think in the end it's irrelevant, because you don't target figures with it.

But, as you say, there's no real point in debating it. We all have our interpretations, and that's fine.

have fun not plaguing the castle...
Heh. Good one. :)

[ugly1hornedmule]

Here is a simple solution, The plague rots organic matter so a wooden door would rot from it or in game terms inflicts a wound.

[bunjee]

Here is a simple solution, The plague rots organic matter so a wooden door would rot from it or in game terms inflicts a wound.Thats basically what I keep saying.

[nickmodaily]

Here is a simple solution, The plague rots organic matter so a wooden door would rot from it or in game terms inflicts a wound.Thats basically what I keep saying.

Amen.

[happyjosiah]

This poll result just confuses me... even if it DIDN'T make sense in the real world, in terms of gameplay I think this clearly works.
I should start a poll that is "should Mimring be able to breathe fire out his butt" and see what happens. May not make sense in the real world. Works for gameplay.

[ugly1hornedmule]

This poll result just confuses me... even if it DIDN'T make sense in the real world, in terms of gameplay I think this clearly works.
I should start a poll that is "should Mimring be able to breathe fire out his butt" and see what happens. May not make sense in the real world. Works for gameplay.
You mean this isn't real life?

[GaryLASQ]

This poll result just confuses me... even if it DIDN'T make sense in the real world, in terms of gameplay I think this clearly works.
I should start a poll that is "should Mimring be able to breathe fire out his butt" and see what happens. May not make sense in the real world. Works for gameplay.or "Can an archer shoot an arrow while hanging onto a ladder?"

btw, of course Mimring can as long as someone holds up a torch at just the right moment.

[MementoMori]

Mimring can turn his head

[bunjee]

:D
Mimring can't climb ladders. Too big. But his flame can kill everyone on a ladder, better watch out for that on really tall ladders.

[Nwojedi]

"should Mimring be able to breathe fire out his butt" and see what happens. May not make sense in the real world. Works for gameplay.

huh? where else would the fire come from? You mean it's suppose to come out of his mouth? I've been playing it wrong this whole time. Oh wait, that's what it was. Something about gorillanators flying out his butt.