Lessons from HeroClix

[quixotequest]

I had written this for the general MarvelScape thread but got to thinking: Any of you out there played/collected HeroClix? What lessons may there be from that experience?

Here are my thoughts:

It is hard to please everyone with a "balanced" representation of a superhero. In HeroClix they released so many variations of Spider-Man, Hulk, and Wolverine, to name a few, because people were always bitchin' that this certain Spidey didn't have his super senses right. Another one needed super strength. Another should be able to carry figures as it swung thru the air. Some other Hulk needed Thunder Clap where some other one had a stomping power. And the list goes on. Some figures were "cheap" enough for a team. Others were expensive power monsters. There was a uber-powerful Elektra they made just like that. 160 points of madness loading her up with every possible power. In the end she turned out like no Elektra from a comic I know of.

Then there was the collectible nature of having at least 3 versions for most every character released: Rookie, Experienced and Veteran. Sometimes also Unique. And then Limited Edition. Of course, some of this was to fuel the collectible fire and save on molds. But it also was a matter of trying to represent the characters at certain times of their "careers." Many figures were not simply "Rookie equals a less powerful version of the Veteran." Powers (and costs) vary across a Superhero during its timeline.

I guess the only consolation is that a Spidey, Hulk or Wolverine in every expansion made for recognizable, marketable characters in every expansion. Meanwhile for the fanboys there ended up being many iterations so hopefully, if you wanted a Hulk for a game, you could find one at the cost and power combo that suited a particular gaming preference. Want Captain America, well you have at least seven to choose from... Iron Man? The list is deeper.

And you thought people whined about the Greeks not being good enough. Just wait till MarvelScape gets rollin'! It may just turn out to be a blessing that this is a game targeted to kids.

[boom]

I'm going to look at it as NOT an accurate representation of what fictional characters should act/perform like when placed in a gaming setting. I'm going with the thought that I can play a game with some cool toy soldiers molded after heroes from books that I loved as a kid. Does this make sense?

More clearly, I'm just going with the mind set that this should be a fun game and I'm gonna ride the nostalgia train. :D

[MacG]

Of course, the Heroscape figures should keep most of their powers for the whole game, not randomly lose powers or gain new ones at they get hurt. I've never been able to see why Cyclops can blast everyone in a small radius when he's hurt, but not when he's healthy, for example.

The lack of "amped up" uncommons, rares, and LEs should keep some of the collectors out of Marvel Heroscape who might otherwise complain.

[jcb231]

I think that HS figures can have more powers than Clix figures, given the cards allow for lots of info. And most, if not all, superheroes can be reduced down to the core things that make them "super."

Wolverine heals, and slashes things...that's pretty much his core set of traits. His senses and such are icing. Cyclops shoots beams.....that's the key. Angel flies...and well, he flies. Storm can fly and use wind and lightning as weapons....she could be given a fair reprsentation using only three or four powers I think...sure she could also freeze things or whatever, but why not just leave that to iceman, and let storm's in-game powers be flying, a lightning strike special attack, and maybe blowing figures around with little tornados? Wouldn't that be pretty kick-ass on it's own?

The basic stats of attack, defense, range, move, and life can be adjusted to represent a lot of different powers. A speedster like Flash will have high move value. A tank like Thing will have high defense, life, or both. A brawler will have high attack. A sharpshooter like Punisher or Hawkeye will have some good range. Those core stats can say a lot.

After core stats, each card can easily handle three to four, maybe even five powers, depending on length of text. I hope that for this game they eleiminate the explanatory text for the Flying power. Lots of characters fly in comics, so dropping the text will save room on the cards for more exciting powers. They could just list "Flying" and you would go check the rulebook if you'd forgotten what that does....I think it's one of the few powers in this game that needs no lengthy description on the card, perhaps followed by Disengage...but Flying bothers me more because the current wording is sooooo lengthy.

I don't think it will tough at all to represent the iconic aspects of most characters. The minute details.....well maybe not....but the KEY aspects can be represented pretty well, and there are few heroes that have more than a handful of key powers.

[quixotequest]

Of course, the Heroscape figures should keep most of their powers for the whole game, not randomly lose powers or gain new ones at they get hurt. I've never been able to see why Cyclops can blast everyone in a small radius when he's hurt, but not when he's healthy, for example.

The lack of "amped up" uncommons, rares, and LEs should keep some of the collectors out of Marvel Heroscape who might otherwise complain.

I agree. Sometimes the changing dial just didn't make sense. Sometimes it did, like Hulk getting more powerful as he took damage and got angry. Or Colossus having to "skin up" before he got into battle. But in practice players generally favored the figures that had high base stats and followed the general "strong at first, weak at the end" model and consistent color (powers) on the dials inbetween. More reliable that way. Who wants to bank on getting that mid-dial power or not, depending where the clix falls? In practice the mechanic was actually far more pedestrian than the variety the dial design seemed intended to deliver.

As a collectible Clix were very cool, providing the sculpt was nice. You had the fig's name, cost ranking, stats/powers and team affiliation there on this compact base. But out on the board they looked stupid. Granted Heroscape bases are still uninteresting compared to a well-flocked metal mini. But for plastic its a nice compromise.

[quixotequest]

After core stats, each card can easily handle three to four, maybe even five powers, depending on length of text. I hope that for this game they eleiminate the explanatory text for the Flying power. Lots of characters fly in comics, so dropping the text will save room on the cards for more exciting powers. They could just list "Flying" and you would go check the rulebook if you'd forgotten what that does....I think it's one of the few powers in this game that needs no lengthy description on the card, perhaps followed by Disengage...but Flying bothers me more because the current wording is sooooo lengthy.

Oh, jcb, why did you have to go rain on my "misery parade"? :D

You're right, of course. It'll just be interesting to see if any comics fanboy base builds up around the game. If it does I expect to see some of the goofy things I saw over at HCRealms.com. But HeroScape DOES allow more diversity and creativity. HeroClix's color code system forces figures into constricted combinations of established powers. If a hero has multiple, valid powers that have been designated as "attack" powers then you're stuck with choosing one of them only.

All my mini-cards say: "Flying: Normal flying and engagement rules apply." Youre right: what more does one need to say? Hasbro is SO wordy on its cards--probably due to trying to be clear for the intended audience. Length notwithstanding, maybe it's a tribute to their work that the FAQ is so small compared to the monstrosity that grew up around HeroClix.

[jcb231]

I like the clarity, I think Flying is just the ONE power that, if they had to do it all again, I would not be surprised to see listed just in the rulebook. I would really bet that Rob and Craig regret how wordy that power is and how much space it takes up.

Any figure in HS that has flying is very limited in the other types of powers they can have....only like one more can easily fit, maybe two if they're short, like on the Minions card. But it's cramped.

Seeing as how lots of characters in the super hero world have flying, it seems like a good thing to drop for this version of the game.

Sorry to spoil your misery with sunshine. If you'd like, I can send someone to **** in your cornflakes tomorrow. That'll get you back on course.

[Agent Minivann]

jcb I think you really got to what the marriage of the HS system and the Marvel characters will be. That is really well put. The Hulk will be mostly a stats based unit where others won't. That is so HS. Also, the flying in the rule book is a great idea.

[KillMeForPrizes]

I think the other thing that makes its difficult is the huge range of power between characters .Could Captain America actually beat Thanos? No - he couldn't even hurt him.

But in a game they have to either make it possible for Cap to hurt Thanos by fudging the scale/scope of power differences OR have preset X vs Y only exclusive scenarios.

Obviously for the sake of fun they go with the former so there is goign to be some odd-ball stuff that crops up while doing a game based off of another source.

[jcb231]

jcb I think you really got to what the marriage of the HS system and the Marvel characters will be. That is really well put. The Hulk will be mostly a stats based unit where others won't. That is so HS. Also, the flying in the rule book is a great idea.

(grabs cookie thrown by Minivan, scurries outside and up tree to eat it)

Thanks!

[webhead817]

It'll just be interesting to see if any comics fanboy base builds up around the game. If it does I expect to see some of the goofy things I saw over at HCRealms.com. But HeroScape DOES allow more diversity and creativity. HeroClix's color code system forces figures into constricted combinations of established powers. If a hero has multiple, valid powers that have been designated as "attack" powers then you're stuck with choosing one of them only.


Oy. Running HCR was like running a zoo without cages sometimes.

I think the main "powers" of each character will be represented well, as others have mentioned, simple stat changes or well worded powers. What I would really like to see captured is the "spirit" of characters...like, Spider-Man. Yeah, you've got webs, you stick to walls, you can sense danger, proportioned strength blah blah...but what about "with great power comes great responsibility"? That was never really captured in clix. But in HeroScape, maybe it can be done.

[jcb231]

Philosophies? I don't think they can capture that.

[MacG]

Thatt's gonna be hard. I mean, you'll get a nature and a personality, but they don't have much of an effect, really. Hmmm.

[allskulls]

"With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" special

When a friendly hero is defeated give Spider-man a free turn adding 1 to each of his stats.

[Nightmare]

Make 1 version of each character.
Make it so that you know what you're buying.
Make it uncomplicated.
Make the maps 3-D unlike the 2-D crap heroclix gave us.
Yeah.

[HShawaii]

I use to play heroclix, I am currently a very dedicated Warmachine player and I'm now starting Heroscape as my alternative to build and paint minis (some of us need a break from that). Here are some things, in my opinion, Heroscape excells at over clix.

Affordable - The price for a set of minis over clix is a big saver.
No Random Boosters - I can buy what I want when I want. This also helps the cost factor.
Better Mechanics - I love the mechanics of Heroscape. It's simple yet there's room for strategy through individual model special abilities. Easy to pick up and play. Solid basic mechanics
Better Terrain - 3D trumps 2D any day.
No fiddling with clicky dials and refering colors with a card... it's not as easy as Wizkids makes it sound.

I've been looking for a superhero fix in my wargaming and heroclix wasn't fullfilling it. I look forward to Marvel Heroscape.

[webhead817]

No fiddling with clicky dials and refering colors with a card... it's not as easy as Wizkids makes it sound.

No doubt, HeroClix has a very high "buy in" in terms of the level of rules knowledge you need to have in order to play the game at a good pace. That's fine if you played from day one, but if you are just starting, you'd be in for a long road. I haven't played a game in about a year, and I bet I wouldn't even know the rules anymore. Meh.

[Celtic_Ghost]

Oy. Running HCR was like running a zoo without cages sometimes.



Hey Webhead, this is Ghost-X from HCRealms. Good to see you here. I just got into Heroscape about 2 months ago myself. What's your story?

Are you still playing HC? I am.

Ghost

[Celtic_Ghost]

I'm going to look at it as NOT an accurate representation of what fictional characters should act/perform like when placed in a gaming setting. I'm going with the thought that I can play a game with some cool toy soldiers molded after heroes from books that I loved as a kid. Does this make sense?

More clearly, I'm just going with the mind set that this should be a fun game and I'm gonna ride the nostalgia train. :D


I couldnt have said it better myself. Bravo Boom!


Ghost

[webhead817]

Hey Webhead, this is Ghost-X from HCRealms. Good to see you here. I just got into Heroscape about 2 months ago myself. What's your story?

Are you still playing HC? I am.

Ghost

Hey Ghost!

I stopped playing HC a little over a year ago, fairly soon after I resigned my post over on HCRealms. I just wasn't unable to keep up with the collecting aspect, and didn't have the time to dedicate to the strategy and play side. I've been playing a lot of Attacktix since then, and one of my Attacktix mates sold me on HeroScape, so now I get the best of both worlds.

The build your own terrain aspect of HS is its strongest suit I think, and break-away walls and what not in the Marvel set...I'm sold twice over.

[jcb231]

I agree there should only really be one iconic version of each character.

Things like "Black Costume Spider-Man" or "Grey Hulk" or "Weapon X Wolverine" or so on can be convention exclusive repaints to help drum up excitment, nothing more.

[offworldxpress]

Of course, the Heroscape figures should keep most of their powers for the whole game, not randomly lose powers or gain new ones at they get hurt. I've never been able to see why Cyclops can blast everyone in a small radius when he's hurt, but not when he's healthy, for example.

This is precisely why I pried all my Heroclix off their stupid click bases and mounted them on nice clear discs so I could write my own rules that are accurate to comics in general

No they're not done yet. Still prying figures...

OffworldExpress Heroclix Customs & Mods (http://photobucket.com/albums/d63/offworldxpress/Heroclix%20Customs/?sc=1&multi=3)

[DarkSpade]

It is hard to please everyone with a "balanced" representation of a superhero. In HeroClix they released so many variations of Spider-Man, Hulk, and Wolverine, to name a few, because people were always bitchin'...


Just wanted to point out that there's so many spiderman, hulk, and wolverines because those are the marvel "cash cow" charactors.

Overall I think wizkids did a pretty good job of representing the charactors within the limitations they had to deal with. Honestly, I doubt heroscape will capture the charactors any better. The charactors can't be done perfectly or the game will suck.

For example, would you really want a game piece that basicly can't die? Then you'll never want to see a perfect version of wolverine or the hulk.

[jdm61802]

This was posted earlier...

Affordable - The price for a set of minis over clix is a big saver.
No Random Boosters - I can buy what I want when I want. This also helps the cost factor.
Better Mechanics - I love the mechanics of Heroscape. It's simple yet there's room for strategy through individual model special abilities. Easy to pick up and play. Solid basic mechanics
Better Terrain - 3D trumps 2D any day.
No fiddling with clicky dials and refering colors with a card... it's not as easy as Wizkids makes it sound.

Being an ex-Heroclixer, the only thing I would add is..
No ever changing rules. I did not have the time to cmmmit to learning and relearning rules every time Wizkids modified them.

[Tendoformer]

I agree with not having multiple Wolverines or Hulks. I'd rather see the time spent adding new superheroes. I'd rather have 10 different superheroes than 10 versions of Wolverine.

[BigFatDaddy]

HS as a game has allot to catch up on to start swinging at HC.

[ej]

HS as a game has allot to catch up on to start swinging at HC.

If you mean in the "I don't want to play that anymore" factor, I'm in complete agreement.

[QBakies]

I played HC a few times with my buddies but it never grabbed me. It was to convoluted and didn't represent the 'superhero-esque' nature that I thought it should. HS is a much easier, much more clear game system that has many character advantages over HC (as stated earlier in this post) that should make it a suitable environment to make a great, fun superhero game.

That being said, the one thing that could really ruin it would be the creation of several versions of characters with different representative powers. Hopefully Hasbro learn from Wizkids on that front.

[Eclipse]

I posted this in another thread, but if follows this discussion at least as well if not better:

Nobody will EVER be happy with how comic book characters are represented outside of comic books or movies simply because these characters exist in a medium where rules can change at any time at the whim of the author. Dramatic storytelling essentially relies on improbability. What should happen is rarely what actually happens, because the impossible is more interesting and dramatic.

The problem is, people take the results of these conflicts and try to apply them to reality. Who would win in a fight between X and Y? The answer is, in every situation, whoever the author decides. It doesn't matter what power level the scouter shows or how high a medichlorian count is, in a dramatic battle, the result is entirely at the whims of the author.

When you put these characters into a game system that has structure and rules, your bound to be disappointed with the results. Without the ability to invent solutions, the stronger character generally wins. There's no room for "entering the villains energy form and absorbing it into our bodies which can then be destroyed to destroy the villain but we'll be ok due to a small pocket dimension that..." eh nevermind...

[ej]

Nobody will EVER be happy with how comic book characters are represented outside of comic books or movies simply because these characters exist in a medium where rules can change at any time at the whim of the author. Dramatic storytelling essentially relies on improbability. What should happen is rarely what actually happens, because the impossible is more interesting and dramatic.


Quite right. The only way to even come close is with a classic RPG, and even using that system the rules, stats and dice are going to get in the way of dramatic storytelling.

Isn't it going to seem odd to take Captain America out of the fight when he whiffs a roll?

[Lord-IVD]

No no...!! the general characters can be made with at least their base powers and abilitys ( Shure we cant cover EVERYTHING a character can possibly do ! But the core dudes are very do able !!)

We just play tested a Colossus figure last night that we alowed to rip up a tree ( roll 10 or higher on ze ol D20 ) and add it to his range of attack ! This was part of a modified Yotan throw attack ..now were working on a way to make these abilitys fit the point system and CARDS !! and just this morning someone mentioned Knockback !!

At some point it may just come down to listing some abilitys in a updateable rule book , thus dude has FLYING ,Counterstrike etc. ..dang outta time ..later ..