Tight spaces

[Riggler]

This question came to mind as a result of a couple of posts on the 4th Massacure post, pg 17 on the Official Units forum.

Someone mentioned cost of common units being factored into limited starting zones, which led someone else to say they didn't think designers accounted for the handicap of double-spaced, non-flying figures.

The people I play with don't play the official rules, not out of an official house ruling, but just not reading the rules (maybe we started under 1st edition rule book and this wasn't clarified).

Anyway here is the tight spaces rule on pg. 13 of the 2nd Edition of the Master game rules:

"A figure can't move through or onto a space that it can't fit completely onto."

Do all of you guys play this way?

If you do then it makes a lot more sense to me that the cost of the two-space non-flying figures cost is correct. Think about how powerful most of these units are: Brunak, Marden Hounds, Grimnak and Krug. Those are powerful units. And Grimnak and Krug, at least, have always seemed real cheap for the advantage they provide. Limiting their movement through tight spaces makes more sense.

EDIT: Cleaned up some grammer

[ultradoug]

I play by all the offical rulls, so, yes.

[toddrew]

"A figure can't move through or onto a space that it can't fit completely onto."

Do all of you guys play this way?


We've played that way from the getgo, though it doesn't come into play that often - usually on a 'cave' map, but not many other boards.

[jcb231]

This question came to mind as a result of a couple of posts on the 4th Massacure post, pg 17 on the Official Units forum.

Someone mentioned cost of common units being factored into limited starting zones, which led someone else to say they didn't think they were citing how designers didn't account for the handicap of double-spaced, non-flying figures.

The people I play with don't play the official rules, not out of an official house ruling, but just not reading the rules (maybe we started under 1st edition rule book and this wasn't clarified).

Anyway here is the tight spaces rule on pg. 13 of the 2nd Edition of the Master game rules:

"A figure can't move through or onto a space that it can't fit completely onto."

Do all of you guys play this way?

If you do then it makes a lot more sense to me that the cost of the two-space non-flying figures cost is correct. Think about how powerful most of these units are: Brunak, Marden Hounds, Grimnak and Krug. Those are powerful units. And Grimnak and Krug, at least, have always seemed real cheap for the price. Limiting their movement through tight spaces makes more sense.

If I recall correctly, the intention of this ruling was that the figure must be able to fit on every space along its path, not on the move from space to space necessarrily. So if Grimnak starts in the open, but a couple spaces of his move pass through some narrow cave before he gets to clear spaces again, it's a no go.

If however, there was somehow an obstacle that only interefered with him SLIDING from one space to another, he'd be okay.

[K/H_Addict]

i dont. i play that a figure just can't finish on a space it can;t fit

[bluekitsune13]

If I ever see an obstruction in their movement, I just place them on each individual hex that has the obstruction. If they can't fit on one of them then they can't continue onward.

[Riggler]

It seems the concensus is that me and my friends have not been playing exactly by the book.

I suppose this means that the 1 movement point to turn around is also more important. For example, on some maps, Krug may not be able to move through a passage way turned one way, but can if he's turned the other.

[jcb231]

I don't play with the one move point turn around. We allow a figure to turn around as a free move....we find it makes everything less fiddly.

[ultradoug]

It seems the concensus is that me and my friends have not been playing exactly by the book.

I suppose this means that the 1 movement point to turn around is also more important. For example, on some maps, Krug may not be able to move through a passage way turned one way, but can if he's turned the other.

yes. he could also move backwords too. you can fit pices in nooks backwords that you cant frontwords, (also protects them in that way)

[Jandars_Hope]

I don't play with the one move point turn around. We allow a figure to turn around as a free move....we find it makes everything less fiddly.

This is what i wasn't sure of. So are the official rules that you must use the one move point turn around or is it not clafiried?

[sigmazero13]

I don't play with the one move point turn around. We allow a figure to turn around as a free move....we find it makes everything less fiddly.

This is what i wasn't sure of. So are the official rules that you must use the one move point turn around or is it not clafiried?
Officially, you have to use a move point, because when moving you have a "leading" half and a "trailing" half, and so if you move the "leading" half to another hex, it requires one move point; turning around causes the leading half to move from one hex to the other, and thus would qualify.

However, you can always houserule otherwise! :)

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

The thread title deserves one:
:quarter:

[Wilkerson74]

For the most part I play by the book as much as possible. As far as the movement thing....If a figure can't fit in a spot at the end of his move, or the physical characteristics of the figure keep it from passing through a narrow passage....then tough poopy. However....If moving a figure in a tight one hex wide area...and his BASE is the only part that is holding him up....we let that slide.

[Codeman]

Going thru tight spaces is a good rule and that make sense to me. However... I also read the following in this thread :

"the intention of this ruling was that the figure must be able to fit on every space along its path,...."

This is not correct is it? If so there would be some maps a double base figure (that doesn't fly) may not be able move much or not at all. I've always played that the double base figure would have to start on a level two hex and end movement on a level double hex.

[Riggler]

Check this out.
I had another thought since I first started this discussion.

"A figure can't move through or onto a space it can't fit completely onto."

You can't use this as a literal interpretation. That would mean that no wingless figure could climb terrain more than a couple levels high because it would be able to fit on the sides of the terrain tiles. -- again, that is a literal inturpretation of this rule. And that's just not logical.


I wonder if the "through" really was just talking about things such as overhangs in the context it exists in the rulebook.

Thoughts?

[Su-Bak-Na]

i dont. i play that a figure just can't finish on a space it can;t fit

I play that way but only if the figures hight alows it.

[jcb231]

Going thru tight spaces is a good rule and that make sense to me. However... I also read the following in this thread :

"the intention of this ruling was that the figure must be able to fit on every space along its path,...."

This is not correct is it? If so there would be some maps a double base figure (that doesn't fly) may not be able move much or not at all. I've always played that the double base figure would have to start on a level two hex and end movement on a level double hex.

This is perhaps the one exception to that rule...yes, he always has to be level.

[jcb231]

What they meant by "through" was examples like Grimnak walking under a low bridge, even if he can fit on both sides. He can't do it.

Or Nilfheim trying to WALK through a small narrow opening, like the castle door or a forest road. Can't do it, too wide.

That's what they mean.

[sigmazero13]

I agree with jcb231. The rules specifically exempt a figure from having to "fit" when climbing up or down. However, other than that, each space along the way must be a legal place for them to stop.

[LilNewbie]

The thread title deserves one:
:quarter:

LOL!

:quarter:

Another one for good measure!

Newb.

[Revdyer]

you can fit pices in nooks backwords that you cant frontwords, (also protects them in that way)

Why do I find this statement vaguely obscene? (Don't get me wrong...I kind of like it...but it still strikes me as vaguely wrong in some way.)

EDIT: I mean, besides ud's spelling, which is usually a bit creepy for me anyway.

[Codeman]

Going thru tight spaces is a good rule and that make sense to me. However... I also read the following in this thread :

"the intention of this ruling was that the figure must be able to fit on every space along its path,...."

This is not correct is it? If so there would be some maps a double base figure (that doesn't fly) may not be able move much or not at all. I've always played that the double base figure would have to start on a level two hex and end movement on a level double hex.

Ok... I knew this could not be correct. Please refer to page 7 of the 1st ed rule book. Example 10 Moving double-space figures. This is how I've been playing ( start and stop on two level spaces )

[Jandars_Hope]

What about moving double spaced figures into water...in the rule book it says about double spaced figures moving into water and out again but only onto 1 water tile back onto a hex! With a single spaced figure you'd stop on the first water tile (unless figure has spec.ability) but with a double spaced figure would you just put it on the first 2 water tile spaces or what?

[Codeman]

What about moving double spaced figures into water...in the rule book it says about double spaced figures moving into water and out again but only onto 1 water tile back onto a hex! With a single spaced figure you'd stop on the first water tile (unless figure has spec.ability) but with a double spaced figure would you just put it on the first 2 water tile spaces or what?
Where are you reading that? Under *Moving into water " Note: Double-space figures can move past one water space that's between two non-water spaces without stopping; they must stop only if they move onto two water spaces"

[sigmazero13]

What about moving double spaced figures into water...in the rule book it says about double spaced figures moving into water and out again but only onto 1 water tile back onto a hex! With a single spaced figure you'd stop on the first water tile (unless figure has spec.ability) but with a double spaced figure would you just put it on the first 2 water tile spaces or what?
With double-hex figures, essentially they stop when their whole base would be in the water. Thus, it would be the first 2 water tile spaces. If they were crossing a really big ocean of water, they would only move one space from that point on until they could climb out of the water.

[Pilgrim]

OK, now to get really nitty gritty:

So according to the official rules, does my two spaced figure have to fit ONTO every space along its path, or must it also be able to physically move THROUGH every space by sliding. If the latter, then if the double spaced base of a two-spaced figure, which I believe is slightly larger than a single spaced base, can't slide through a narrow gap, then the double spaced figure can't move through that space, correct?

Just wondering, since we have a tourny coming up in Sept and we're playing by the book. I personally never play with those rules, or even with 1pt to turn around for 2-spacers, so I'm kind of rusty on how it's supposed to be played.

[Codeman]

OK, now to get really nitty gritty:

So according to the official rules, does my two spaced figure have to fit ONTO every space along its path, or must it also be able to physically move THROUGH every space by sliding. If the latter, then if the double spaced base of a two-spaced figure, which I believe is slightly larger than a single spaced base, can't slide through a narrow gap, then the double spaced figure can't move through that space, correct?

Just wondering, since we have a tourny coming up in Sept and we're playing by the book. I personally never play with those rules, or even with 1pt to turn around for 2-spacers, so I'm kind of rusty on how it's supposed to be played.
Maybe we are getting hung up on definitions, but what I read and quoted from the rule book I think answers your question. You don’t have to fit on every (hex) space but you do have to fit “through the path” ( unless you can fly (hop))

[Pilgrim]

That's how I understood it to say, but just wanted to be sure because it always struck me as so nerdy and nit-picky.

[Jexik]

Sorry to necromance such an old thread, but I searched for 'tight spaces' and this was the first thing that came up.

In a map like my Derelict,* there are a few spaces here and there where a figure with a fat base like Grimnak can't quite fit. When adjacent to one hex higher areas, the ruins protrude into the neutral zone and Grimnak's base is too wide. Slimmer based figures such as Krug fit just fine. If Grimnak starts his move on a legal spot (like the first two road spaces near a starting zone below), and he would end his move on a legal spot at the other end of the ruins, would you, or should you allow him to move through a tight space?

It seems to me that the rule was mostly designed to account for vertical overhangs and problems caused by the length or width of a sculpt. Does this concept extend to the width of the base? Should a player have to test every two spaces along a double-based figure's move for legal placement?

*http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//derelictmove2_A1P.jpg

The general consensus in this thread seems to be that Grimnak wouldn't be able to move as I would like him to by the book, but in my experience a lot of players would probably let it happen.

Thoughts?

[Aldin]

The general consensus in this thread seems to be that Grimnak wouldn't be able to move as I would like him to by the book, but in my experience a lot of players would probably let it happen.

Thoughts?

That matches both my understanding and my experience. I must say though, I generally find tight spaces on maps to be annoying - especially if any of the "tighteners" have the potential to become dislodged as I try to adjust my figure. Ruins are the prime offender in this respect.

~Aldin, who figures Grimnak could stand to lose a few pounds

[TOG]

The same situation occurs with TKN on Ember Canyon Road, as witnessed in a recent tourney. We played it by the rules, but it was kind of disappointing that TKN was essentially confined to his start zone as a result.

[killercactus]

It's been a while since I've played on Ember Canyon Road, but I would highly doubt TKN can't fit through the canyon. Isn't it like, 3 hexes wide?

[Hogg]

The general consensus in this thread seems to be that Grimnak wouldn't be able to move as I would like him to by the book, but in my experience a lot of players would probably let it happen.

Thoughts?

For me I would let it pass in a friendly game but not a competitive one.

The first page of this thread reads like a who's who of banned members.

[nyys]

I always thought (with the exception of overhangs) as long as you can fit in the final space you're OK (though I'm probably thinking of just fliers, which is obvious).

[Hogg]

I always thought (with the exception of overhangs) as long as you can fit in the final space you're OK (though I'm probably thinking of just fliers, which is obvious).

No, because then Jotun would just be able to stroll through the castle door if he had enough movement.

I wrote up a list of which figures can/can't get through the door because of this rule. I also included a section on how to 'flip-flop' certain figures through the door who couldn't fit otherwise. Here is the link: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=7933

Edit: Just saw your exception, Nyys. N/M

[dok]

However, double-spacers don't have to check for fit on spaces along their path where they can't end their movement, correct?

So, if one of the two "tight spaces" road hexes in Jexik's drawing was a level higher or lower than the other, then Grimnak would be allowed to walk that path, because he doesn't have to check whether he can fit in spots that aren't legal places to end his move, right?

[Jexik]

However, double-spacers don't have to check for fit on spaces along their path where they can't end their movement, correct?

So, if one of the two "tight spaces" road hexes in Jexik's drawing was a level higher or lower than the other, then Grimnak would be allowed to walk that path, because he doesn't have to check whether he can fit in spots that aren't legal places to end his move, right?

But what if one of those two spaces were occupied by one of my own unengaged Heavy Gruts? Grimnak couldn't stop on those spaces, but putting a guy in the way would make it a legal move? Should I stop, remove the Heavy Grut, see if Grimnak can fit?

Also, Hogg, at least in my experience, stuff that is okay during a "friendly game" is usually cool in a tournament too. Most of the tournaments I've been to are friendly.

[dok]

However, double-spacers don't have to check for fit on spaces along their path where they can't end their movement, correct?

So, if one of the two "tight spaces" road hexes in Jexik's drawing was a level higher or lower than the other, then Grimnak would be allowed to walk that path, because he doesn't have to check whether he can fit in spots that aren't legal places to end his move, right?

But what if one of those two spaces were occupied by one of my own unengaged Heavy Gruts? Grimnak couldn't stop on those spaces, but putting a guy in the way would make it a legal move? Should I stop, remove the Heavy Grut, see if Grimnak can fit?
Don't know; good question. I'm not 100% sure my initial statement is right, either, but it's my current interpretation of the rule. However, it could lead to some really odd results, like Grimnak walking under a low overhang by moving along irregular terrain the whole way.

[Rÿchean]

I fail to see the confusion. In the rule books and in the FAQ, it is clear that if the figure cannot fit there, whether it is space along the path or the final resting space, it cannot move there.

From SOTM Rule book, page 11:

Tight Quarters: Some battlefields have narrow passage ways, ruins and overhangs that may limit the movement of some figures. A figure can't move through or onto a space that it can't fit completely onto.

It even specifies the ruin creating this situation. Obviously the flying ability trumps this.

From the FAQ:

If I’m flipping a double-space figure, do I have to be able to have enough room on both sides to slide or spin around?
No. Sliding from one space to another never matters on any movement; it's actually fitting on each space as you go. As long as it can fit once you have flipped around, you can flip the figure at no movement cost.

While moving a double-space figure to the next space of it’s movement, can I flip it so it can fit?
Yes. While moving, if a figure cannot fit on a space, feel free to flip it to see if it can fit facing the other direction. If it can fit once flipped, you may move onto that space, and continue moving (if applicable). If it cannot fit on the space facing either direction, you cannot move onto that space.

----

Maybe I am misunderstanding????

[killercactus]

Seems to me that you have to check each hex even if the figure can't legally land there. Thanks, Rychean.

[dok]

wow, a murderer's row viewing this thread.

Rÿchean, that definitely addressed the Grimnak-ducking-under-a-low-overhang issue. My bad on that one. It also addressed Jexik's Grimnak-moving-through-friendly-figures issue. Clearly, both of those are not allowed.

However, one question (for me) still remains: How do I define "can/cannot fit completely onto" for a double-spaced figure on irregular ground? If one hex is higher than another, clearly the base can't lay flat, which is the standard definition. In extreme cases (moving up 4+ levels, for instance), you can't even make the figure stand on the two hexes.

[Onacara]

I just have one follow-up question Ry...(although I am sure it was answered somewhere else already)

If you have an overhang and the stinger with his gun aloft can stand in the space under the overhang due to the recessed area underneath the tile can he walk out from underneath if his gun doesnt fit under the overhang? I don't even know if this is physically possible but since he never occupies the area where the gun hits the edge is this a legal move?

[dok]

If you have an overhang and the stinger with his gun aloft can stand in the space under the overhang due to the recessed area underneath the tile can he walk out from underneath if his gun doesnt fit under the overhang? I don't even know if this is physically possible but since he never occupies the area where the gun hits the edge is this a legal move?
I'm pretty sure that's legal under the "Sliding from one space to another never matters on any movement; it's actually fitting on each space as you go" clause.

[Rÿchean]

Yes, based on the ruling that you do not check engagement between hexes, I would say yes. The lip of the terrain on the overhang is most assuredly between spaces. If you are able to sort of tip him under and then onto the hex and it does not disrupt the terrain or bend the figure's gun, I don't see why not.

[Jexik]

I fail to see the confusion. In the rule books and in the FAQ, it is clear that if the figure cannot fit there, whether it is space along the path or the final resting space, it cannot move there.

Yeah, you're right. I guess I just didn't want it to be true.

(FWIW, double-spaced figures do have some nice chances to hop across the rivers outside the starting zones on Derelict...)

[Onacara]

On another note since it was brought up in a thread regarding stacking the jungle tree/brush defense bonus.

The argument I made when I said it was impossible for a figure to be surrounded by 8 trees was that the figure if they could fly would still need to be able to fit in the sppace between the top of the brush and the canopy on the tree as weel as between the trunks of 2 adjacent trees. Is that correct?

Here is a pic

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m140/tonymozzarella/1-1.jpg

[Jexik]

On another note since it was brought up in a thread regarding stacking the jungle tree/brush defense bonus.

You can't stack the jungle bonus. No matter how many pieces of jungle you're next to, it's just 1 extra defense.

The argument I made when I said it was impossible for a figure to be surrounded by 8 trees was that the figure if they could fly would still need to be able to fit in the sppace between the top of the brush and the canopy on the tree as weel as between the trunks of 2 adjacent trees. Is that correct?

Here is a pic

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m140/tonymozzarella/1-1.jpg

I think the flying figure would only need to fit on the space that it's landing on.

[Retlaw]

Just to be sure. In the picture below, per the rules, Grimnak could NOT walk between the ruins because his base won't fit due to their overhang of the ruins and the width of his base. He would have to walk around instead.
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/1/0/9/example_original.jpg

The interesting part is that the figure fits with no problem -- it's just the base that won't fit.

In our games, we would let him pass (couldn't end his move there, but could walk through) -- but these are "friendly" just for fun games.

[Onacara]

On another note since it was brought up in a thread regarding stacking the jungle tree/brush defense bonus.

You can't stack the jungle bonus. No matter how many pieces of jungle you're next to, it's just 1 extra defense.



We know that Jexik..someone responded to the OP in that thread that "It wouldn't matter if you were surrounded by 8 palm trees you still only get +1 defense"...to which I responded "Which is impossible anyways"....and then my explanation above was used to defend my point.

[Rÿchean]

On another note since it was brought up in a thread regarding stacking the jungle tree/brush defense bonus.

The argument I made when I said it was impossible for a figure to be surrounded by 8 trees was that the figure if they could fly would still need to be able to fit in the sppace between the top of the brush and the canopy on the tree as weel as between the trunks of 2 adjacent trees. Is that correct?

Here is a pic

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m140/tonymozzarella/1-1.jpgThe rules for Jungle set say you can remove the canopy pieces to access hard to reach places. You reattached after.

You guys read the rules right? ;-) :-D

[Onacara]

That and the rules for Jungle set say you can remove the canopy pieces to access hard to reach places. You reattached after.

You guys read the rules right? ;-) :-D

I read that to mean getting your big meat hook in there more so than to put figure in who dont fit between the brush and canopy.

[Jexik]

That and the rules for Jungle set say you can remove the canopy pieces to access hard to reach places. You reattached after.

You guys read the rules right? ;-) :-D

I prefer to trust my memory until I have to go back and read the rules. Which leads to situations like this. As Retlaw reminded us, I think what bugged me is the fact that Grimnak's sculpt fits, but his base gets in the way. If someone modded one of their Grimnaks to fit on a Krug-sized base, he'd be able to slide right on by.

[Onacara]

That and the rules for Jungle set say you can remove the canopy pieces to access hard to reach places. You reattached after.

You guys read the rules right? ;-) :-D

I prefer to trust my memory until I have to go back and read the rules. Which leads to situations like this. I think what bugged me is the fact that Grimnak's sculpt fits, but his base gets in the way. If someone modded one of their Grimnaks to fit on a Krug-sized base, he'd be able to slide right on by.


I'm on it!!!!!

[Rÿchean]

That and the rules for Jungle set say you can remove the canopy pieces to access hard to reach places. You reattached after.

You guys read the rules right? ;-) :-D

I prefer to trust my memory until I have to go back and read the rules. Which leads to situations like this. As Retlaw reminded us, I think what bugged me is the fact that Grimnak's sculpt fits, but his base gets in the way. If someone modded one of their Grimnaks to fit on a Krug-sized base, he'd be able to slide right on by.

Sure. Grimnak's thick base is the problem.


However, one question (for me) still remains: How do I define "can/cannot fit completely onto" for a double-spaced figure on irregular ground? If one hex is higher than another, clearly the base can't lay flat, which is the standard definition. In extreme cases (moving up 4+ levels, for instance), you can't even make the figure stand on the two hexes.

On this, all I can offer is to eyeball it. This is a situation where the rules semi contradict themselves, but not really.

[LongHeroscaper]

The rule certainly does not allow Grimnak to move through the tight space as one in Jexik's map. I however have no problem letting my opponent do that, tournament game or not. Unless it is someone I don't like and I really want to see him getting mad.

[Rÿchean]

That and the rules for Jungle set say you can remove the canopy pieces to access hard to reach places. You reattached after.

You guys read the rules right? ;-) :-D

I read that to mean getting your big meat hook in there more so than to put figure in who dont fit between the brush and canopy.

I guess, but I am relatively certain I could snake Realin between two trees moving her at an angle where she is parallel to the ground and I am having her on her side wiggling through. But why would I when I can just remove the Canopy?

I could be wrong on this and can certainly take it up with the others, if need be.

EDIT: I just physically checked and yes you can get Raelin and a slew of other fliers between two Jungle trees by sort of spearing them through and then twisting the base.

[Onacara]

That and the rules for Jungle set say you can remove the canopy pieces to access hard to reach places. You reattached after.

You guys read the rules right? ;-) :-D

I read that to mean getting your big meat hook in there more so than to put figure in who dont fit between the brush and canopy.

I guess, but I am relatively certain I could snake Realin between two trees moving her at angle where she is parallel to the ground and I am having her on her side wiggling through. But why would I when I can just remove the Canopy.

I could be wrong on this and can certainly take it up with the others, if need be.

I am under the assumption that flying figures remain upright when they fly so going back to the overhang sceanrio...if the height of an overhang is 10 spaces high then Kelda could not fly over a figure with a height of 5 without being engaged...but maybe I am overthinking it.

[Rÿchean]

I am under the assumption that flying figures remain upright when they fly . Ah, assumption; yeah that isn't in the rules. What I am talking about is no different than what I said earlier about tipping your Stinger to fit under the lip of the overhang.

Besides, they show Raelin flying parallel to the ground in the comic books. :-)

As far as the second part of you post, the question was posed to Craig one time in a podcast whether or not a Sentinel could fly through the door if there was a enemy figure in it; he said yes. (much to my shock) That would be a situation where the height of the Sentinel combined with the height of whatever figure is in the doorway would exceed the height of the doorway.

EDIT: The Jungle rule books does state that figures are not allowed to move through Jungle pieces. I am going to review with the others to see how they interpret this as far as fliers go. I will reply back.

[LongHeroscaper]

On another note since it was brought up in a thread regarding stacking the jungle tree/brush defense bonus.

Here is a pic

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m140/tonymozzarella/1-1.jpg

It is actually a moot point, because there is no way you can physically place 2 jungle trees next to each other. A tree and a bush, totally; Two trees, definitely not.

[dok]

EDIT: The Jungle rule books does state that figures are not allowed to move through Jungle pieces. I am going to review with the others to see how they interpret this as far as fliers go. I will reply back.I thought that just applied to walkers, after all, fliers can fly over other obstacles.


However, one question (for me) still remains: How do I define "can/cannot fit completely onto" for a double-spaced figure on irregular ground? If one hex is higher than another, clearly the base can't lay flat, which is the standard definition. In extreme cases (moving up 4+ levels, for instance), you can't even make the figure stand on the two hexes.

On this, all I can offer is to eyeball it. This is a situation where the rules semi contradict themselves, but not really.So, there's the trick, Jexik. Just put in a speed bump at the tight spot. Then Grimnak is allowed through as long as he plausibly fits in the spot when you hold him there.

[LongHeroscaper]

EDIT: The Jungle rule books does state that figures are not allowed to move through Jungle pieces. I am going to review with the others to see how they interpret this as far as fliers go. I will reply back.I thought that just applied to walkers, after all, fliers can fly over other obstacles.


However, one question (for me) still remains: How do I define "can/cannot fit completely onto" for a double-spaced figure on irregular ground? If one hex is higher than another, clearly the base can't lay flat, which is the standard definition. In extreme cases (moving up 4+ levels, for instance), you can't even make the figure stand on the two hexes.

On this, all I can offer is to eyeball it. This is a situation where the rules semi contradict themselves, but not really.So, there's the trick, Jexik. Just put in a speed bump at the tight spot. Then Grimnak is allowed through as long as he plausibly fits in the spot when you hold him there.

The point is the "speed bump" can't be placed there. It is physically impossible. Have you ever built a map, huh? ;) :)

[dok]

EDIT: The Jungle rule books does state that figures are not allowed to move through Jungle pieces. I am going to review with the others to see how they interpret this as far as fliers go. I will reply back.I thought that just applied to walkers, after all, fliers can fly over other obstacles.


However, one question (for me) still remains: How do I define "can/cannot fit completely onto" for a double-spaced figure on irregular ground? If one hex is higher than another, clearly the base can't lay flat, which is the standard definition. In extreme cases (moving up 4+ levels, for instance), you can't even make the figure stand on the two hexes.

On this, all I can offer is to eyeball it. This is a situation where the rules semi contradict themselves, but not really.So, there's the trick, Jexik. Just put in a speed bump at the tight spot. Then Grimnak is allowed through as long as he plausibly fits in the spot when you hold him there.

The point is the "speed bump" can't be placed there. It is physically impossible. Have you ever built a map, huh? ;) :)
:oops: Hey man, at least my Gencon maps can get built... :p

OK then, how about a "speed hole"? Just in theory, that would work, right?

[Rÿchean]

EDIT: The Jungle rule books does state that figures are not allowed to move through Jungle pieces. I am going to review with the others to see how they interpret this as far as fliers go. I will reply back.I thought that just applied to walkers, after all, fliers can fly over other obstacles.

Right, I agree. However, the scenario presented by Onacara and the answer I have given would require the leapers to fly through the obstacle, rather than over. There is a slight differnece as the other obstacles are solid and do not have umbrellas at the top. I agree though; leapers and fliers should be able to access the area even if a thick caonpy is preventing it.

[RobertDD]

With moving a figure over a path, I have always played it that as long as the path allows a figure to fit height-wise, and has unoccupied hexes and hex edges, then that figure can move through. It only has to really physically fit on the space it ends on, otherwise I am OK.

In the tournament in Boston in my game against TheGuru, he started to fit Nilfheim on two spaces where he did not want to end his move and I was wondering what he was doing. It turned out that he was trying to move toabetter position while walking so he did not have to break engagement with Nilf, and he concluded that he couldn't do it (Nilf can be hard to fit around ruins). That was the first time I ever saw anyone play it like that. I actually was going to let him, and if he had not measured, I would not have even second guessed it.

I am under the assumption that flying figures remain upright when they fly so going back to the overhang sceanrio...if the height of an overhang is 10 spaces high then Kelda could not fly over a figure with a height of 5 without being engaged...but maybe I am overthinking it.
It has been ruled that figures do not add height to the terrain they sit on for the purpose of determining wether they can be leaped or flown over. Figures have dead space that other figures can utilize when they jump or fly or use another leap-like ablity. Here's a link to some background info on that: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=767589&postcount=9

I do think the assumption that figures fly upright is correct, though. If there is a cave (a fully enclose area, walls, floor and ceiling) with, as the only opening, a 4 tile high, 1 tile wide opening, or "window", then a height 5 figure can't fly into that cave, can it? I would actually play this that the figure needs to fit in/through the window (including wings.) Do I play that correct?

[Grungebob]

I think I am visualizing what you are getting at RobertDD. The rules claim that even a flier needs to fit in each space it passes through unless it can go over that space. So the window situation you mention, if the flier cannot go over and cannot fit on the window space it would not be able to go there.

[RobertDD]

I think I am visualizing what you are getting at RobertDD. The rules claim that even a flier needs to fit in each space it passes through unless it can go over that space. So the window situation you mention, if the flier cannot go over and cannot fit on the window space it would not be able to go there.
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. When I visualize it for myself, I think of a flyer as having to fit on every space just like any other figure. When flying, since there is no "ceiling", you can always find "space" where the flyer will fit, but when flying through a window into a cave the flyer has to fit through that window.

In Onacara's 8 palm tree example, the flyer has to find a space where he'd fit on every space, but he does not have to be able to slide from space to space. So, when approaching the two spaces in between the eight trees, he fits somewhere over the palm trees. Then, next step, he fits in between the eight trees. He doesn't have to be able to slide through the canopy, but there has to be some clear space there (in other words, the same reasoning can't be used to fly through a solid 24-hex terrain piece.)

This is how I would play it.

When the window is in between spaces i gets weird, though. For instance, examine the following situation. In this picture, can Ne-Gok-Sa move freely in and out of his cave? Since Ne-Gok-Sa fits on every space, and he does not have be able to slide from one space to the next, the answer is "Yes"? (The question mark indicates that I have no clue!) (Also please note that for simplicity's sake I am ignoring Ne-Gok-Sa's height and move and am assuming that he can get up and down the ledge, but the question works for any flyer just as well.)
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/3/5/2/ne_gok_sa_original.jpg

[rym]

Ohhhh....I'm having visions of the thread Revdyer started concerning Battlements and Disengagement (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=18186).

By definition, I'd say Ne-Gok-Sa fits in the cave (ignoring height and movement as you stated RobertDD), but the practical side of my brain says, "How the heck does he get in there?!"

Interesting, indeed.

[kafkaesque]

I also say yes, Ne-Gok-Sa can go down there. He just has to be able to fit on each space. Remember, Heroscape is a game, not a simulation. :D

[Rÿchean]

I also say yes, Ne-Gok-Sa can go down there. He just has to be able to fit on each space. Remember, Heroscape is a game, not a simulation. :DWe also have to take all of the rules into account and there is a visual comparison mechanic for figures going under overhangs.

We are still discussing......

[RobertDD]

I also say yes, Ne-Gok-Sa can go down there. He just has to be able to fit on each space. Remember, Heroscape is a game, not a simulation. :DWe also have to take all of the rules into account and there is a visual comparison mechanic of figures to overhangs.

We are still discussing......
I think you are referring to SOTM page 10? I just read through that, and I don't know if that has any effect upon the described situation, because the examples all deal with figures on tiles, never with figures in between spaces.

I just realized that you can also make some pretty weird situations with battlements, placing them so the opening to a cave is no longer high enough to let a figure in, like this:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/3/5/2/ne_gok_sa_2_original.jpg

Here, it is a little easier to visualize how Ne-Gok-Sa moves in and out of his cave, but the clear space above the battlement is only 3 high. Any ruling should probably consider this situation as well...

(on a random note, I really like the way this looks. I have to build a map that does something like that!)

EDIT: it is somewhat hard to see in the picture, but the floor on the inside of the cave (yellow tiles) is one level higher than the outside of the cave, which makes the cave 5 high.