"Tough" question

[K/H_Addict]

what if MBS stares at a Gnator, or James Murphy Whips one. Do they still get there auto shield, even though you didnt roll anything?

[ultradoug]

stop being lazy!

Tough
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack, Gorillinators always add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.

"whatever is rolled" if you dont roll, you dont get it.
its on the offical page, why are you being lazy lately! >_<

[reapersaurus]

:spam:

[K/H_Addict]

yes, but, depending on how you think about it, you do roll. You roll 0 dice.

[ultradoug]

*eats K/H_Addict*

[jcb231]

No....you don't roll anything. The MBS and James Murphy rules, if I recall correctly, say the target doesn't roll for defense. Am I right on that? Therefore you didn't roll and can't add the shield.

[sigmazero13]

I agree. No dice = no roll = no autoshield.

[CornPuff]

Uh oh, I might have to make a Phases of Attack post.

The rules are written to make the game as easy to understand, and to outline the spirit of the game. If they took the time to outline the exact mechanics HS operates on in the rulebook and cards, no one would play the game.

Ok.

When rolling defense against a normal attack, Gorillanators always add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled

'When Rolling Defense' refers to a phase of attack resolution. After an MBS stare or a Murphy whip, they cannot roll any defense dice. So the G'Nators roll no defense dice, rather, during the defense dice rolling phase, they roll 0 def dice. Then they add their automatic shiled to whatever is rolled. In this case, 0 shields were rolled out of 0 dice, add the auto-shield, and then the shield total is one.

This is the same thing as no move, no summon with saylind (disproven) and no move, no attack, no chomp w Grimnak (disproven).

maybe it is time to make my Phases of Attack Resolution chart...

[Su-Bak-Na]

*eats K/H_Addict*

Man UD you sure like eating people. :wink:

If you havn't been in chat with UD you won't understand.

[Su-Bak-Na]

yes, but, depending on how you think about it, you do roll. You roll 0 dice.

Not to start a fight but isn't that rules lawering.(spelling)

[CornPuff]

It is my opinion that rolling 0 dice actually goes with the spirit of heroscape, as well as a possible interpretation of the text. Rolling 0 dice does seems a bit odd, but I'm totally with K/H on this one.

[sigmazero13]

Su-Bak-Na, there's often a fine line between what people call "rules lawyering" and "reading the true intent of the rules", though ;) In fact, My opinion is that "rules lawyering" is an oft-maligned term. Sometimes, you NEED a rules lawyer to make sure that the game is played the way it is SUPPOSED to be played. Such lawyers will not try to rules-lawyer something to try and twist a rule, but rather to keep a rule from being twisted by others :)

Granted, on this particular topic I disagree with K/H, but I don't think his argument is necessary pulling at straws, either :)

[allskulls]

Make the chart, Cornpuff...your logic is logical.

[sigmazero13]

The chart may be helpful, however it could just as easily be argued that by "cannot roll any defense dice" it would essentially cause the "roll defense phase" to be SKIPPED ENTIRELY (which is how I believe it was intended to be).

I recall this very question being ruled on once upon a time, but I don't know if it got transferred to this site.

[K/H_Addict]

This is the same thing as no move, no summon with saylind (disproven) and no move, no attack, no chomp w Grimnak (disproven).

lemme get this straight. If i am using saylind, and want to summon my 7 damage Braxas adjacent to kelda, and saylind is already in position to do this (ie: one hex in between the two kyries), i have to move saylind at least one space in any direction to legally summon? Can i move one space forward, and then spend a second point to move back to the space i just left?


I have always played that you can choose not to move, which basically said you moved forward 1 space and then back to where you started.

[MacG]

This is the same thing as no move, no summon with saylind (disproven) and no move, no attack, no chomp w Grimnak (disproven).

lemme get this straight. If i am using saylind, and want to summon my 7 damage Braxas adjacent to kelda, and saylind is already in position to do this (ie: one hex in between the two kyries), i have to move saylind at least one space in any direction to legally summon? Can i move one space forward, and then spend a second point to move back to the space i just left?


I have always played that you can choose not to move, which basically said you moved forward 1 space and then back to where you started.

No! No! No!

Move ZERO spaces (you may move from zero to the full printed move or a card). Now heal.

"You may move a figure in any direction UP TO the Move number on its Army Card."

[Doc_Savage]

what if MBS stares at a Gnator, or James Murphy Whips one. Do they still get there auto shield, even though you didnt roll anything?

No. Because those things are not a NORMAL ATTACK!

[jcb231]

Uh oh, I might have to make a Phases of Attack post.

The rules are written to make the game as easy to understand, and to outline the spirit of the game. If they took the time to outline the exact mechanics HS operates on in the rulebook and cards, no one would play the game.

Ok.

When rolling defense against a normal attack, Gorillanators always add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled

'When Rolling Defense' refers to a phase of attack resolution. After an MBS stare or a Murphy whip, they cannot roll any defense dice. So the G'Nators roll no defense dice, rather, during the defense dice rolling phase, they roll 0 def dice. Then they add their automatic shiled to whatever is rolled. In this case, 0 shields were rolled out of 0 dice, add the auto-shield, and then the shield total is one.

This is the same thing as no move, no summon with saylind (disproven) and no move, no attack, no chomp w Grimnak (disproven).

maybe it is time to make my Phases of Attack Resolution chart...


**** on toast, do I need to add ANOTHER damned rules question to the Craig list? sigh..... :-P

I would say that the intention here is that when a figure is barred from rolling for defense, they cannot defend, period. So not auto-shield.

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

[jcb231]

Um, doc...MBS and James attack AFTER they do those things. They are refering to the attack that follows, as whip and stare do no damage on their own.

[MacG]

**** on toast, do I need to add ANOTHER damned rules question to the Craig list? sigh..... :-P

I would say that the intention here is that when a figure is barred from rolling for defense, they cannot defend, period. So not auto-shield.

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

No you don't. We've had that answer. It was after net, but I think it was HQ, not here. The Gorillinators only get the autoshield when they get to roll. If they don't roll, then too darn bad.

It's slow enough getting answers without starting repeats!

[CornPuff]

I'll do the phases of Attack Resolution on another thread, because they aren't going to help here.

Basically, I think that MBS makes a figure skip their dice roll, but not their auto-shields. Sigmazero and crew think that MBS makes the defending figure skip their entire defense phase, including dice rolling and auto shields., I'll go ahead and say that they aren't going to solve anything.

jcb231, This is totally a question for Craig at Gencon. I'm quite surprised we haven't discussed this earlier on the boards.

I will throw this out, for the 'story' people and the 'role players,' I think of tough much like natural armor or hide. So it makes some sense that it would stay around. Plus the G'nators need all the help they can get!

[Rÿchean]

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

Nah DED's enhanced rifle is a special attack and Gnators dont get the auto shield on a special attack.

[sigmazero13]

Basically, I think that MBS makes a figure skip their dice roll, but not their auto-shields. Sigmazero and crew think that MBS makes the defending figure skip their entire defense phase, including dice rolling and auto shields., I'll go ahead and say that they aren't going to solve anything.
If they are skipping their roll, how would they get the auto-shield? The card is pretty explicit that they only get the auto-shield when they roll defense dice.

Choosing to roll 0 (which you can't do anyway) is different than not being allowed to roll at all. MBS says you cannot roll defense dice. It doesn't say you roll no dice (which, in game terms, mean very different things).


Just out of curiosity, you say it isn't going to "solve anything". What do you mean by this?


I want to clarify I'm not asking this to be argumentative, but merely to spark discussion. However, I'm almost 100% certain this very issue was ruled on once in the HQ days, and so if it changes I'm going to be a little shocked.

[CornPuff]

its cool. I didn't see the ruling, but I didn't hang out much on HQ either.

I'm a programmer so rolling 0 dice seems to me like a reasonable thing to do :mrgreen:

I just meant that we have agreed to disagree. I think the tough ability means adding a shield to the result to the time in which you would normally roll, rather than link adding shields to the physical act of rolling

My basis is that I beleive it would have been more difficult for the designers to say it any other way, and the current wording of tough is short and effective. Although this discussion makes me question how effective it really is :D

[Su-Bak-Na]

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

Well technecally tough only works on normal attacks. :P

Edit: Oops Rychean already said this.

[jcb231]

**** on toast, do I need to add ANOTHER damned rules question to the Craig list? sigh..... :-P

I would say that the intention here is that when a figure is barred from rolling for defense, they cannot defend, period. So not auto-shield.

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

No you don't. We've had that answer. It was after net, but I think it was HQ, not here. The Gorillinators only get the autoshield when they get to roll. If they don't roll, then too darn bad.

It's slow enough getting answers without starting repeats!

Okay...now that you mention this I vaguely remember it. Was it an official ruling or just a group consensus?

I'll remove it from the list.

[sigmazero13]

jcb231 - I could have sworn it was an official ruling. I know it was THERE, but I suppose it is possible it was just a group concensus.


CornPuff - I'm a programmer as well :) So maybe I can explain my rationale in programming terms.


let's say the Defense roll is this semi-pseduocode function:

int DefenseRoll(number_of_dice, flags)
{
for each dice
roll it
if it's a shield, add it to the "results"
end for
if flags contains AutoShield
add one to results
elseif blah blah
.. other things that the flags could be, like the double shields thing
end if

return results
}

And then the main attack sequence would be like this:

...
Check Special Powers in effect
number of skulls = RollAttack(number_of_attack_dice,attackflags)
if allowed to roll defense
number of shields = RollDefense(number_of_defense_dice,defenseflags)
else
number of shields = 0
end if
damage = number of skulls - number of shields
ApplyDamage(damage)
...


Thus, the way you, K/H, etc, are interpreting it, the "if allowed" part isn't there, but you simply would call RollDefense(0, defenseflags). Where those on the other side say that the RollDefense function is not called at all.


I hope this makes sense :)

I think you probably DID understand where we were coming from already, but I figured that from one programmer to another, it may help to show how this side can "make sense" in that way, too :)

[CornPuff]

I see your schwartz is as big as mine http://forum.watmm.com/style_emoticons/watmm/jedi.gif

I see where you are coming from. I just see it more like this:


if( ParalyzingStare ){
target.def = 0
}

Shields = RollDefense[target.def, flags] * Valor + AutoShields
Skulls = RollAttack[attacker.atk, flags] * Deadly + AutoSkulls

if( skulls - shields > 0 ) {
takeWounds(target, skulls - shields )
}



I think the problem is that the people that wrote the rules weren't programmers :P

I'll ask Craig personally in 14 days. No offense to the people that thought he answered it on HQ, I just like to hear it for myself.

Part of the problem with HS is that so many rules are defined on the cards themselves. Its like the structure of turns and attacks is changing as each new wave comes out

[sigmazero13]

I think the problem is that the people that wrote the rules weren't programmers :P
Indeed. Program code is much more elegant than English, because well-written code is NEVER ambiguous, where English is far too often!

What, you mean it's hard for non-programmers to read? To bad... :)

Maybe you should bring Craig a basic C programming book for future development :twisted:

[jcb231]

Here's a "Tough" question....

How many dice is Tough 1 (as in, one auto-shield) mathematically equal to?

Three defense dice? Four? Two? ???

[Pilgrim]

Sorry, I don't know program code but I do know english, and it's very clear that the gorillinators don't get their extra shield if MBS or Murphy are successful in rendering them defenseless.

MBS's opponent cannot roll "any defense dice" when his stare is successful. The Gnators' power says that "when rolling defense dice." But they are not rolling defense dice, so no tough extra.

No need to bother Craig with this one. :thumbsup:

[Kepler]

Here's a "Tough" question....

How many dice is Tough 1 (as in, one auto-shield) mathematically equal to?

Three defense dice? Four? Two? ???

On average 1 auto-shield equals 3 defense dice (i.e. they both have the same expected value).

3 defense dice gets you the following probabilities:

30% chance of 0 shields
44% chance of 1 shield
22% chance of 2 shields
4% chance of 3 shields

So the 3 dice gives you a slightly better chance of rolling < 1 than rolling more than 1, but the upside is greater (i.e. you can get 1 less than 1 or 2 more than 1).