Which unit is more broken:the 4th mass or legionnaires?

[feekonea]

Ive always wondered this about heroscape, and finally decieded to ask it. If the community was to pick wich unit would be the most broken between the roman legionnaires or the 4th massachuesetts line, who would it be?

[gorillanator]

I don't think either of these is that much broken but I said the Legionaires are the most because they do have many bonding capabilities and the 4th Mass. aren't perfect with only 6 range and low defense.

[Marsman]

No unit is broken. Some are just more versitile, easier to use, or may be more frequently used.

[Logan_Xavier]

^ What he said.

No vote for me.

[gorillanator]

No unit is broken. Some are just more versitile, easier to use, or may be more frequently used.

Agreed.

[jdtenor]

I'll take the legionaires any day I had them bonding with Venoc Warlord the other day creating havoc, while the Legionaires got me move+2 attack+1 & defence+2

[LilNewbie]

I agree in the above assessments. The 5th are tough but not broken and the RLs ability to bond is kinda cool, imo. They are still slow at a move of 4 so the shield wall gives them some survivability. Besides, the SW bonus dwindles quickly as the RLs fall.

Newb.

[gorillanator]

I'll take the legionaires any day I had them bonding with Venoc Warlord the other day creating havoc, while the Legionaires got me move+2 attack+1 & defence+2

Why did the Legionaires get move+2 attack + 1 and defense +2?

[Hahnarama]

I don't think either of these is that much broken but I said the Legionaires are the most because they do have many bonding capabilities and the 4th Mass. aren't perfect with only 6 range and low defense.

Ya what he said!

[Grungebob]

I added an option... because I can do that.

[jdtenor]

gorillanator wrote
Why did the Legionaires get move+2 attack + 1 and defense +2?


sorry it was glyphs since they only move 4 spaces I couln't backup Venoc Warlord so went for the glyphs

[feekonea]

wow, I cant believe most of you dont think that either the legionnaires or the minutemen are broken. I dont think any of you are willing to accept the fact that they are, or of course it could be just me. But in my games the minute men constantly take down over twice of their points and their team always wins. whenever I look across the board and see the 4th mass, I think "Sh*t I lost."

[countblah]

Try fielding your 70 pts of minutemen against Deathwalker 9000, Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan, James Murphy, or anyone else with an area effect weapon. In order to keep them effective, you have to avoid moving them, and if they're clumped, they cease to exist. I saw James Murphy take out four of them with one shot. That's not broken. That's a reasonable weakness, right there.

[jdtenor]

feekonea wrote

wow, I cant believe most of you dont think that either the legionnaires or the minutemen are broken. I dont think any of you are willing to accept the fact that they are, or of course it could be just me. But in my games the minute men constantly take down over twice of their points and their team always wins. whenever I look across the board and see the 4th mass, I think "Sh*t I lost."

I'm starting to think your playing very inexperienced players or very passive players. 4th are to weak & slow & legionaire are just to slow but bonding is great.

[feekonea]

this is how my group breaks down...
me> been playing since the game came out, I went to stores and they didnt even have the Master set in stock yet, so ive been playing a lot and have played at least over 75 games.
friend 1> has been playing for about a year has played at least 30 games
friend 2> has known about the game for about a year, but has only played about 10 games.
friend 3> has been playing for about 6-8 months now, has played about 50 games
friends 4,5, and 6> known about the game for 3 months now, probably combined played about 25 games.

I certainly dont think my group is inexperienced its just we never draft, we always use premade 400 pt armies. So we almost never have a counter for the 4th mass when they show up.

[netherspirit]

I just think you don't understand the meaning of the word "broken" when it comes to games like this.

[toddrew]

No unit is broken. Some are just more versitile, easier to use, or may be more frequently used.

I would apply that comment to the question at hand, only clumsily amend it to:

No current unit is broken. Some are just more versitile, easier to use, have specific counter strategies (which if not employed, make the unit seem broken), or may be more frequently used.

It seems to me that every current unit has enough reasonable weaknesses to exploit, loaded dice being the only way to break the game :D

[gorillanator]

gorillanator wrote
Why did the Legionaires get move+2 attack + 1 and defense +2?


sorry it was glyphs since they only move 4 spaces I couln't backup Venoc Warlord so went for the glyphs

Ok I wasn't tryin to be mean I was just tryin to clear things up.

[bunjee]

As with any figure, they have their counterpart. If you want to get into overpowered for cost discussions, there are much more dangerous units. Take the Krav Maga for example. They are a pain in the ass.

I've generally had poor luck with the Legionnaires, and the 4th mass have their good days and bad days.

It is likely a playing style. Play against them more often and you'll begin to figure out what works for you in taking them down.

Golly, I wish I could play at all :-(

[bunjee]

this is how my group breaks down...
me> been playing since the game came out, I went to stores and they didnt even have the Master set in stock yet, so ive been playing a lot and have played at least over 75 games.
friend 1> has been playing for about a year has played at least 30 games
friend 2> has known about the game for about a year, but has only played about 10 games.
friend 3> has been playing for about 6-8 months now, has played about 50 games
friends 4,5, and 6> known about the game for 3 months now, probably combined played about 25 games.

I certainly dont think my group is inexperienced its just we never draft, we always use premade 400 pt armies. So we almost never have a counter for the 4th mass when they show up.

Aha! Part of the balance factor of Heroscape is provided by the draft process. Being able to see your opponents army develop allows a counter plan.

With pre-made, you often run into issues that you don't have a counter against.

[feekonea]

As with any figure, they have their counterpart. If you want to get into overpowered for cost discussions, there are much more dangerous units. Take the Krav Maga for example. They are a pain in the ass.

I've generally had poor luck with the Legionnaires, and the 4th mass have their good days and bad days.

It is likely a playing style. Play against them more often and you'll begin to figure out what works for you in taking them down.

Golly, I wish I could play at all :-(

haha its funny you say that, because the krav have never ever given me ay problems whatsoever. I guess it is all about playing style. Because from my point of view, if my oppenent takes the krav for his army, its just another waste of 100 points for them.

[gorillanator]

As with any figure, they have their counterpart. If you want to get into overpowered for cost discussions, there are much more dangerous units. Take the Krav Maga for example. They are a pain in the ass.

I've generally had poor luck with the Legionnaires, and the 4th mass have their good days and bad days.

It is likely a playing style. Play against them more often and you'll begin to figure out what works for you in taking them down.

Golly, I wish I could play at all :-(

What prevents you from playing?

[toddrew]

Because from my point of view, if my oppenent takes the krav for his army, its just another waste of 100 points for them.

Really? What's your secret?

[netherspirit]

if my oppenent takes the krav for his army, its just another waste of 100 points for them.

For you to think the Krav are a waste of 100 points, your opponents must not be very good...

If I were to even begin to think about listing possible "broken" units (which there aren't any in HS, yet) the first one on my list would be the Krav.

[feekonea]

I dont know why, its just something about the krav that never seem to work against me. Well for having 3 defense dice, there gunna falter eventually, and with 3 attack dice they cant really do a lot of damage when your rushing in. I play with a venoc army (venoc warlord and 7 squads of vipers) So maybe the reason Ive never really had any problems with them is that My vipers are just too quick for them. Whoa, I coulda sworm I just saw Nethers lips move, have they been doing that the whole time? Cuz for as long as ive been on the boards, Ive never seen them move.

[toddrew]

I play with a venoc army (venoc warlord and 7 squads of vipers)

Viper army would be good against KMA, assuming that the terrain allows them to be reached before getting too many shots off (a couple of frenzies would take care of that, likely.) Best strategy is to get in and engage them quickly.

But are you saying that you always use venocs?

I'd take my chances with Brunak, Raelin, DW800 and Izumi against that onslaught :)

[jcb231]

its just we never draft, we always use premade 400 pt armies.

This says it all. That's why you think both of these units are unbalanced. Premade armies can cause some major headaches like that.

[feekonea]

I play with a venoc army (venoc warlord and 7 squads of vipers)

Viper army would be good against KMA, assuming that the terrain allows them to be reached before getting too many shots off (a couple of frenzies would take care of that, likely.) Best strategy is to get in and engage them quickly.

But are you saying that you always use venocs?

I'd take my chances with Brunak, Raelin, DW800 and Izumi against that onslaught :)


No I dont, but You can ask anyone of my partners, I think venoc are awesome.

[InfinityMax]

Thanks, GB, for the only feasible answer.

[countblah]

I still can't believe that there's anyone around with the ability to say that the Krav Maga are no problem at all for them. Seriously. The only thing that are keeping the Krav Maga under control is that they're a unique squad. If you could have as many as you could afford of those guys, you'd end up seeing whole armies of nothing but them. Okay, maybe I'm stretching it a bit, but there's a point to be made here. The characters that are absolutely super, the ones who are on the borderline of being broken, are those who are unique, who can be around once only. If you have the ability to field as many of them as you like, odds are, they have a weakness, and if you look hard enough, you can find it. The Krav Maga have weaknesses too (Sgt Drake), but it's a lot more specialized.

[Robotech Master]

Let's see,

The last time my friend used the Roman Legionaires, *with* the Sacred Band, *and* all with Marcus boosting them....

I shot all of them down with just 3 Microcorp agents. Well, a few of them did manage to get kind of close because my Agents got busy trying to shoot down his approaching Tagawa Samurai, but then his Romans (even with their shield bonus and Marcus next to them) got killed by my Venoc Vipers, who Frenzied 3 times that game.

The last time we used the 4rth Mass., it was a three player game in which I had one squad of 4rth Mass. and one of my friends had one squad of 4rth mass. I also had Sentinels, Airborne Elite, and Minions in my army. I controlled the Range +4, Defense +2, Defense +1, and Attack +1 glyphs. My friend controlled the Move +2 glyph, had Marcus, Drake, Deathwalker 9000, and Sir Denrick supporting his 4rth Mass.

The third guy, whose army consisted of Charos, 1 squad of Obsidian Guards, Syvarris, the Healing Kyrie, and Thorgrim, controlled no glyphs and had no 4rth Mass.

*he won.* That's right, I had 4rth Mass running around with 5 defense and 3 attack (4 if wait then fire or height, 5 if both), Minions running around with 9 defense die, and Sentinels running around with 7 defense with double shield, and I still lost. Broken...I think not.

[feekonea]

Let's see,

The last time my friend used the Roman Legionaires, *with* the Sacred Band, *and* all with Marcus boosting them....

I shot all of them down with just 3 Microcorp agents. Well, a few of them did manage to get kind of close because my Agents got busy trying to shoot down his approaching Tagawa Samurai, but then his Romans (even with their shield bonus and Marcus next to them) got killed by my Venoc Vipers, who Frenzied 3 times that game.

The last time we used the 4rth Mass., it was a three player game in which I had one squad of 4rth Mass. and one of my friends had one squad of 4rth mass. I also had Sentinels, Airborne Elite, and Minions in my army. I controlled the Range +4, Defense +2, Defense +1, and Attack +1 glyphs. My friend controlled the Move +2 glyph, had Marcus, Drake, Deathwalker 9000, and Sir Denrick supporting his 4rth Mass.

The third guy, whose army consisted of Charos, 1 squad of Obsidian Guards, Syvarris, the Healing Kyrie, and Thorgrim, controlled no glyphs and had no 4rth Mass.

*he won.* That's right, I had 4rth Mass running around with 5 defense and 3 attack (4 if wait then fire or height, 5 if both), Minions running around with 9 defense die, and Sentinels running around with 7 defense with double shield, and I still lost. Broken...I think not.


This is definetly a illogical answer. Look I got the point that no figure is broken, Ive been around long enough to see threads about this, I just started this thread to see who thought was more broken, considering alls I hear about is success stories about them, but With one 4th mass squad? c'mon that proves nothing. thats like having the tom w/ out the jerry, In common squads you have to have more than one.

[Jason]

The legion aren't broken but the 4th Mass are (at 70 points). We all know ranged units dominate much more than do melee units.

[feekonea]

The legion aren't broken but the 4th Mass are (at 70 points). We all know ranged units dominate much more than do melee units.

thank you jason,thank you I also agree about the 4th mass, but not about the legionaires. (theres just so many sucess stories about them)

[jdtenor]

feekonea wrote

I certainly dont think my group is inexperienced its just we never draft, we always use premade 400 pt armies. So we almost never have a counter for the 4th mass when they show up.
& also wrote
haha its funny you say that, because the krav have never ever given me ay problems whatsoever. I guess it is all about playing style. Because from my point of view, if my oppenent takes the krav for his army, its just another waste of 100 points for them.

Not trying to be mean again, but are you playing the 4th correctly, cuase if 4th start at 2 attack + 1 for not moving thats 4 4ths attacking at 3 when the krav start at 3 and have better range also krav are hard to kill at a distance becuase if doesn't matter if you hit me at 1 or at 8, krav's one shield blocks all save you, you have to hope for a blank roll, I would got up againt a swarm of 4th's with no problem but the krav takes strategy

[Jason]

If an opponent is approaching your army you'll be wishing you had the 4th Mass. Just for standing still you get 4 attacks at 3. Additionally by waiting there you likely have height which is 4 attack of 4. 4th Mass armies also often have Marcus so an adjacent Marcus gives you now 4 attacks with most at 5 dice. Additionally Marcus boosts them to 6 movement making them highly mobile. Furthermore, many armies commonly field 6/12/16 4th Mass, last time I checked one can only field 3 Krav. Losing a single Krav limits their effectiveness by 33%. You can lose tons of 4th Mass until their effectiveness declines

[feekonea]

feekonea wrote

I certainly dont think my group is inexperienced its just we never draft, we always use premade 400 pt armies. So we almost never have a counter for the 4th mass when they show up.
& also wrote
haha its funny you say that, because the krav have never ever given me ay problems whatsoever. I guess it is all about playing style. Because from my point of view, if my oppenent takes the krav for his army, its just another waste of 100 points for them.

Not trying to be mean again, but are you playing the 4th correctly, cuase if 4th start at 2 attack + 1 for not moving thats 4 4ths attacking at 3 when the krav start at 3 and have better range also krav are hard to kill at a distance becuase if doesn't matter if you hit me at 1 or at 8, krav's one shield blocks all save you, you have to hope for a blank roll, I would got up againt a swarm of 4th's with no problem but the krav takes strategy


yes but as jason said, that 4th attacker is a killer. finally im starting to get some backup in my arguements. haha.

[RobWeaver]

How would the 4th Ma and the Legionarries do pitted against each other? I realize that they represent completely different tactics, one ranged and the other melee, but could it be that their specials negate each other? Would the Romans high defense help them overcome their slow movement to be able to close with the musketmen, or would the repeated vollies of wait then fire attrite them to the point of ineffectiveness? Is this matchup worth trying?

[toddrew]

How would the 4th Ma and the Legionarries do pitted against each other? I realize that they represent completely different tactics, one ranged and the other melee, but could it be that their specials negate each other? Would the Romans high defense help them overcome their slow movement to be able to close with the musketmen, or would the repeated vollies of wait then fire attrite them to the point of ineffectiveness? Is this matchup worth trying?

I would guess that the Romans alone vs. 4th Mass alone would get obliterated in most cases - Romans have average to slightly above average defense as long as they are in the shield wall, but that breaks down quickly. Usually one advantage that a melee squad has over a ranged squad is that extra attack, but that's not the case here. I think the loses the Romans would take while trying to reach the 4th Mass would be to great to overcome.

To get the points even, it would be 7 squads of romans vs. 5 squads of 4th Mass. Would be a fun set up to try out.

[gorillanator]

How would the 4th Ma and the Legionarries do pitted against each other? I realize that they represent completely different tactics, one ranged and the other melee, but could it be that their specials negate each other? Would the Romans high defense help them overcome their slow movement to be able to close with the musketmen, or would the repeated vollies of wait then fire attrite them to the point of ineffectiveness? Is this matchup worth trying?

I would guess that the Romans alone vs. 4th Mass alone would get obliterated in most cases - Romans have average to slightly above average defense as long as they are in the shield wall, but that breaks down quickly. Usually one advantage that a melee squad has over a ranged squad is that extra attack, but that's not the case here. I think the loses the Romans would take while trying to reach the 4th Mass would be to great to overcome.

To get the points even, it would be 7 squads of romans vs. 5 squads of 4th Mass. Would be a fun set up to try out.

They would get obliterated but the Romans weren't made to fight alone, they were made to fight with more Romans and Marcus.

[toddrew]

They would get obliterated but the Romans weren't made to fight alone, they were made to fight with more Romans and Marcus.

Make it 5 squads of Romans + Marcus vs. 5 squads of 4th Mass, and I'd still go with the 4th Mass - may even be worse without the #'s advantage. Still interesting - I'll add it to the list of battles to wage (that never gets broached - always end up drafting :) )

I don't want to misrepresent either, but the question raised by Rob was 'is the shield wall vs. stand and fire a wash?' and I would think that the 4 boosted attacks at range would decimate the 4 (max) defense of the shield wall.

[LilNewbie]

They would get obliterated but the Romans weren't made to fight alone, they were made to fight with more Romans and Marcus.

Make it 5 squads of Romans + Marcus vs. 5 squads of 4th Mass, and I'd still go with the 4th Mass - may even be worse without the #'s advantage. Still interesting - I'll add it to the list of battles to wage (that never gets broached - always end up drafting :) )

I don't want to misrepresent either, but the question raised by Rob was 'is the shield wall vs. stand and fire a wash?' and I would think that the 4 boosted attacks at range would decimate the 4 (max) defense of the shield wall.

That would be an interesting scenario to try out. One big factor would be the terrain on the battlefield. A lot of firelines and the 5th would probably take it but terrain with limited firelines and the Romans could easily overrun the 5th (especially with the extra move provided by Marcus.) Would you include any glyphs in this scenario or just let the armies duke it out without any boosts?

Newb.

[toddrew]

That would be an interesting scenario to try out. One big factor would be the terrain on the battlefield. A lot of firelines and the 5th would probably take it but terrain with limited firelines and the Romans could easily overrun the 5th (especially with the extra move provided by Marcus.) Would you include any glyphs in this scenario or just let the armies duke it out without any boosts?

Newb.

In general we don't play with a lot of glyphs, so if we get a chance this weekend to stage this battle, it would likely be on the board that we have set out (no glyphs; on the larger side - advantage Mass; lots of trees, advantage - Romans; roads, mild elevation changes - wash; castle in the middle (not that castle :) ) - huge advantage 4th Mass if they are able to take that (but the attempt may sway things to the Romans.))

Anyway, I'll take the romans first and then my son (and friends) will take them a second time. I'll try to post a battle report w/some pics if we get to it.

[RobWeaver]

I'd play it with glyphs because they would temp both players to act in ways that are counter-intuitive: Should the Roman break a wall to hold a glyph? Should a line infantryman move to take a glyph, spoiling "wait and fire?" My instincts tell me the 4th Ma should prevail, but I'm will to play it and find out.

[Mud Turkey 13]

Personally, I think that the Marro Warriors are the closest unit to being broken. I don't think they are broken at all since they have such low attack, but they are more "broken" than 4th Mass or the Roman Legion. 50 points for an almost endless amount of units is pretty good. Especially a four figure ranged unit. I think they should have been 70 points anyway.

[feekonea]

Personally, I think that the Marro Warriors are the closest unit to being broken. I don't think they are broken at all since they have such low attack, but they are more "broken" than 4th Mass or the Roman Legion. 50 points for an almost endless amount of units is pretty good. Especially a four figure ranged unit. I think they should have been 70 points anyway.

Imagine if the marro warriors were common ahah. thats a great 400 point army....8 squads of marros.

[AgentX-127]

Personally, I think that the Marro Warriors are the closest unit to being broken. I don't think they are broken at all since they have such low attack, but they are more "broken" than 4th Mass or the Roman Legion. 50 points for an almost endless amount of units is pretty good. Especially a four figure ranged unit. I think they should have been 70 points anyway.

I've seen this kind of thing said more than once about the Marro Warriors.

I have played them, and had little success with them.
How do you use them so that they are effective?
Once they start dying, they just seem to eat up the turn markers to clone, while my opponent continues attacking, and eventually the attrition outwieghs the clone ability (even in water.)

Edited to say: I am taking this question to the existing Marro Warriors thread. :D

[MegadeV]

The 4th Mass. is an excellent unit, but far from broken. A defense of 2 is proof enough. The Romans rarely get used in our games and usually get slaughtered when they are used. However, we usually play at least 600 point armies with 4 players and plenty of hills so slow melee units don't fare too well.

[feekonea]

The 4th Mass. is an excellent unit, but far from broken. A defense of 2 is proof enough. The Romans rarely get used in our games and usually get slaughtered when they are used. However, we usually play at least 600 point armies with 4 players and plenty of hills so slow melee units don't fare too well.


yes but they can be easily upgraded when gathered with an all valiant army, plus their firepower, range, and amount of men should be able to gain ground quickly, which should give them another dice for height. plus if they're such a great unit shouldnt they be at least a 100 points? 70 points is pretty cheap for a great unit.

[MegadeV]

The 4th Mass' Move, Range, Attack and Defense are all lower than the Krav Maga. There is no way they should be priced the same.

Edit: The Krav Maga's special is better IMO.

[Jason]

"The 4th Mass' Move, Range, Attack and Defense are all lower than the Krav Maga. There is no way they should be priced the same."

You are conveniently mentioing the Krav are Unique whereas the 4th Mass are common. That makes a HUGE difference

[feekonea]

In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

[toddrew]

Also 4th Mass have 4th attack ;) Game's all about maximizing the attack.

[jdtenor]

feekonea wrote
In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

Most poster agree that there are way better choices then the 4th but a few just don't get it so here's real battle situation

here's my 400 pt army

Syvarris 100pts

Krav Maga 100 pts

Sgt. Drake 110 pts

Deadeye Dan 60 pts

Guilty Mc Creech 30 pts

Good luck with your 4th & go ahead pick tealord so you can waste half your points! :twisted:

I'll be checking for your 400 pt army?

[MegadeV]

In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

Sure, they have 2 "free" upgrades. But even with those, their attack and defense are just even with the KM. The KM can have that Attack and Defense while moving around and not needing height.

[jcb231]

In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

Finn doesn't do anything to the Krav, but Thor can also help the 4th.

The balancing issue is that 4th only get a Valiant bonus in an all Valiant army....which Marcus and Taelord cannot be a part of. So they can't get all their bonuses at once.

Also, they only get WTF if they wait, then fire. As in, not move. As in, not get into range of their target. They are great defensive units, but not as great on offense because of this. Sure they can still tear it up, but they are in no way unbalanced. There's a ridiculous number of checks on these guys.

[shakey_snake]

The 4th aren't broken, they're just extremely useful in tournament settings.

You wouldn't want a unit with Wait and Fire in a situation where you have to go get something, for example.

The legionnaires aren't broken just very versatile for their 50 points.

[feekonea]

In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

Sure, they have 2 "free" upgrades. But even with those, their attack and defense are just even with the KM. The KM can have that Attack and Defense while moving around and not needing height.

maybe you havent realized but I dont think that they're attack and defense should be equal to the krav, considering the krav are 30 points more, plus the fourth have an extra guy. and are common.

[feekonea]

In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

Finn doesn't do anything to the Krav, but Thor can also help the 4th.

The balancing issue is that 4th only get a Valiant bonus in an all Valiant army....which Marcus and Taelord cannot be a part of. So they can't get all their bonuses at once.

Also, they only get WTF if they wait, then fire. As in, not move. As in, not get into range of their target. They are great defensive units, but not as great on offense because of this. Sure they can still tear it up, but they are in no way unbalanced. There's a ridiculous number of checks on these guys.

finns spirit could help, correct? And they could have tae and marcus in their army, and still get the bonus, as long as tae and marcus die first right? Or is it just even if they die, they still wont get the bonus because the defeated figs are still not valiant?

[feekonea]

feekonea wrote
In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

Most poster agree that there are way better choices then the 4th but a few just don't get it so here's real battle situation

here's my 400 pt army

Syvarris 100pts

Krav Maga 100 pts

Sgt. Drake 110 pts

Deadeye Dan 60 pts

Guilty Mc Creech 30 pts

Good luck with your 4th & go ahead pick tealord so you can waste half your points! :twisted:

I'll be checking for your 400 pt army?

well my favorite 400 point army is venoc warlord, ven vipers x7, butif you want me to do it with the 4th mass, im sure either UPC's army of 2 4th, 2 legionnaires, marcus, and me burg sa or lilwis's army of 4th mass x5 and me burg sa could easily deafeat that army.

[Jason]

"Most poster agree that there are way better choices then the 4th but a few just don't get it so here's real battle situation"


Thst premise by itself is incorrect. Hardly anyone would agree the 4th Mass aren't 1 of the Best units in the game

[jdtenor]

feekonea wrote

well my favorite 400 point army is venoc warlord, ven vipers x7, butif you want me to do it with the 4th mass, im sure either UPC's army of 2 4th, 2 legionnaires, marcus, and me burg sa or lilwis's army of 4th mass x5 and me burg sa could easily deafeat that army.

I'm so sorry I didn't see it your way, you are a heroscape genius! :wink:
It's time to take your pill!


Jason wrote
Most poster agree that there are way better choices then the 4th but a few just don't get it so here's real battle situation"


Thst premise by itself is incorrect. Hardly anyone would agree the 4th Mass aren't 1 of the Best units in the game

it's nice that feekonea has friends in high places didn't mean to insult your friend(or your multiple personalities)

I'm going to go talk to my pet rock! :P

[feekonea]

feekonea wrote

well my favorite 400 point army is venoc warlord, ven vipers x7, butif you want me to do it with the 4th mass, im sure either UPC's army of 2 4th, 2 legionnaires, marcus, and me burg sa or lilwis's army of 4th mass x5 and me burg sa could easily deafeat that army.

I'm so sorry I didn't see it your way, you are a heroscape genius! :wink:
It's time to take your pill!


Jason wrote
Most poster agree that there are way better choices then the 4th but a few just don't get it so here's real battle situation"


Thst premise by itself is incorrect. Hardly anyone would agree the 4th Mass aren't 1 of the Best units in the game

it's nice that feekonea has friends in high places didn't mean to insult your friend(or your multiple personalities)

I'm going to go talk to my pet rock! :P


o jeez,your funny.

[RobWeaver]

Fought that fight between 5 squads of 4th Mass and 7 squads of Romans. The Romans did lose, but it took awhile, and the outcome was much closer than I thought it would be. Keeping the Roman squads together gave them high defense rolls, which often caused the 4th Mass squads to use a "wait and fire" to soften them up rather than move to take better high ground. Until the middle of the game, casualties were nearly even. The 4th Mass proved more flexible in the end of the game, where the focus shifted to hunting down individual figures. Revvy War guys spread out on the board could influence the battle more than the Roman figures, because they really needed to stay together to enhance their defense. On a gaming note, I'm not sure I'd recommend this experiment to anybody. The Romans low move, coupled with the 4th Mass choice to "wait and fire" made it a maddeningly slow game, without a lot of variation between turns. Too many of the same troop type. I would recommend a Roman-themed army versus something themed around the 4th Mass as a more interesting engagement. (How about the 4th Mass and McDirks? I used a couple squads for proxies and they gave the visual impression of Moore's Creek Bridge, an early battle fought in South Carolina during the American Revolution.)

[LilNewbie]

Fought that fight between 5 squads of 4th Mass and 7 squads of Romans. The Romans did lose, but it took awhile, and the outcome was much closer than I thought it would be. Keeping the Roman squads together gave them high defense rolls, which often caused the 4th Mass squads to use a "wait and fire" to soften them up rather than move to take better high ground. Until the middle of the game, casualties were nearly even. The 4th Mass proved more flexible in the end of the game, where the focus shifted to hunting down individual figures. Revvy War guys spread out on the board could influence the battle more than the Roman figures, because they really needed to stay together to enhance their defense. On a gaming note, I'm not sure I'd recommend this experiment to anybody. The Romans low move, coupled with the 4th Mass choice to "wait and fire" made it a maddeningly slow game, without a lot of variation between turns. Too many of the same troop type. I would recommend a Roman-themed army versus something themed around the 4th Mass as a more interesting engagement. (How about the 4th Mass and McDirks? I used a couple squads for proxies and they gave the visual impression of Moore's Creek Bridge, an early battle fought in South Carolina during the American Revolution.)

Thanks for the recap and your observations but....


:nopics:

:D

Newb.

[RobWeaver]

Sorry but my tech savvy was tested by the 110 Instamatic. Have to do what I can with words.

[Riggler]

Braxas

I don't mean to rub this in if a lot of you guys aren't playing with wave 4.5, I don't own the 4.5 wave, but I've yet to see Braxas mentione as an effective counter to both of these squads.

I've played Braxas in just three games and won them all. One of those games was an every man for themselves with same points for armies (in which I got doubleteamed) We play draft. And I draft Braxas last.

Braxas REALLY changes the game. Like I said I don't think I've played her enough yet to give a clear opinion on this, but so far what I've witnesses is Braxas, even for the cost, is the closest to being broken.

The Romans and 4th Mass, no matter how many units or how many heroes you boost them with will be no match for her played properly.

My theory, agian yet untested, is you almost have to build an army from the get go to counter Braxas.

[feekonea]

one time i used braxas against 2 mass armys, and braxas took down six of them before fallling thats what, 100 pts? So i havent had braxas as a useful answer for the 4th mass, even though im not dissing him, because he took down about 375 points for me today.

[toddrew]

I would think that 3 squads of 4th Mass could handle Braxas. Even if Braxas is rolling well, I don't think that 3 def will stand up to the greater range of the 4th Mass. Maybe if able to keep height - don't ever let the 4th get height and WTF in that battle, 4x 4A against 3d might not last the turn.

[jcb231]

In addtion to jasons post, its easie to upgrade the 4th mass...
4th mass upgrade ablities=height, valiant army bonus, WTF, marcus, raelin, taelord

krav upgrade abilities= thorgrim, finn, height, taelord, raelin

thats one more chance to upgrade them, plus it is a whole lot easier considering you have to spend massive amounts of points to upgrade krav (everythng cost extra points, except height) than 4th mass ( they're 2 special abilities on the card dont cost you any points)

Finn doesn't do anything to the Krav, but Thor can also help the 4th.

The balancing issue is that 4th only get a Valiant bonus in an all Valiant army....which Marcus and Taelord cannot be a part of. So they can't get all their bonuses at once.

Also, they only get WTF if they wait, then fire. As in, not move. As in, not get into range of their target. They are great defensive units, but not as great on offense because of this. Sure they can still tear it up, but they are in no way unbalanced. There's a ridiculous number of checks on these guys.

finns spirit could help, correct? And they could have tae and marcus in their army, and still get the bonus, as long as tae and marcus die first right? Or is it just even if they die, they still wont get the bonus because the defeated figs are still not valiant?

True, Finn's spirit could help, but then he's dead and you're down 80 points.

What I meant was that you can't benefit from Tae, Marcus, and Valiant Army at the same time. If Tae and Marcus are alive you're benefiting from them, but they have to be dead before the Valiant bonus kicks in.

[RobWeaver]

You can't enhance the 4th Mass with Finn - he only works on figs with a range of 1. The 4th Mass aren't strictly defenders, they just force you to look for good ground to attack. Take a position with one squad, support by fire as you move one up on their flank, etc. WTF seems defensive in nature, but it's not really, it can be a powerful offensive fire weapon, and if coupled with height advantage (and maybe a glyph) it can be truly devastating.

[Country_Dragon]

Had to go with none are broken I havnt found any broken figures in the game however I have found a few with Point values to high.

[ScoringRubric]

a dead Finn can boost ranged units.

they have to be unique though, so the 4th Mass are out any way.

[Thor]

Like others are saying I wouldn't consider the 4th Mass. nor the Roman Legionnaires broken. They are just extremely solid, versatile units. If I did have to pick between the stronger of the two though, I would definetly go with the 4th Mass. due to them being range and range having their inherent advantage in HeroScape.

Really every squad or hero in the game has some counter. The 4th Mass. and Roman Legionnaires are good units all around and harder to counter, but by no means impossible. With wave 5 we also got some GREAT counters to both units.

For the same point cost you can draft a squad of Warriors of Ashra which should easily defeat a squad of Legionnaires. For only 10 points more you can draft 2 squads of Deathreavers which can effortlessly engage the 4th Mass. and hold them up until a stronger attacking figure or squad can move up and obliterate the 4th.

[B:T:L Matt]

I think neither are broken. The best way to counter the 4th Mass is plain and simple, out-range them. I play battles against them all the time and they never have an intimidation factor.

As for the Romans, while they can bond with quite a few, they're really more deadly with Marcus, and as it was stated in the 1st page, the Romans become less threatening when they start to lose figures.

[happyjosiah]

Not for lack of trying, but the 4th Mass still don't have an effective counter unit.

[Sapper]

Not for lack of trying, but the 4th Mass still don't have an effective counter unit.

You would not consider Drake to a good counter to the 4th? Or how about the Krav Maga?

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I actually don't use the 4th Mass very much. I find my maps are have too ruggad terrain and it takes them a huge amount of time to move anywhere, so i lose the wait then fire. I have the same problem with the 4 move of the Roman Leggionaries. So in my mind neither are in the least bit broken.

[Aldin]

Not for lack of trying, but the 4th Mass still don't have an effective counter unit.

Nakita Agents. Krav Maga. Mimring. Just off the top of my head.

~Aldin

[Eclipse]

Braxas

I don't mean to rub this in if a lot of you guys aren't playing with wave 4.5, I don't own the 4.5 wave, but I've yet to see Braxas mentione as an effective counter to both of these squads.

I've played Braxas in just three games and won them all. One of those games was an every man for themselves with same points for armies (in which I got doubleteamed) We play draft. And I draft Braxas last.

Braxas REALLY changes the game. Like I said I don't think I've played her enough yet to give a clear opinion on this, but so far what I've witnesses is Braxas, even for the cost, is the closest to being broken.

The Romans and 4th Mass, no matter how many units or how many heroes you boost them with will be no match for her played properly.

My theory, agian yet untested, is you almost have to build an army from the get go to counter Braxas.

I played a game with Braxas this weekend that was just silly and wrong. She took down 390 of my buddy's 500 points before turning to the Airborn Elite, at which point the game was so frustrating we called it early. My Ninja, Krav, and Raelin never left the start zone.

Honestly I find the Romans a little stronger for their points than the 4th Mass. They're as tough as the Knights if you keep them together and do just as much damage. Marcus blindly covers their movement weaknesses and powers them (or the OTHER squad we're talking about) pretty easy. To top it off they bond with a great number of units, making them extremely versitile. I'd probably play them a bit more, but I find them rather boring.

[Thor]

Not for lack of trying, but the 4th Mass still don't have an effective counter unit.
No effective counter? I disagree, there are literally dozens. You have the Krav Mag Agents, Nakita Agents, Sgt. Drake, and Deathreavers just to name a few of the better ones. The 4th Mass. are good but there are plenty of units that can dispatch them with ease.

[MrBarkypants]

My son and played the scenario that comes with the lava exp. It's basically one long map with a hill in the middle and lava at the end. Player 1 has to go from one end of the board to the other and Player 2 has to stop him. P2 get s to put a few player on the hill in the middle.

I was defending and I had the 3 of the 4th on the hill w/ Shotgun Sully in front, and the 4 th fig. of the 4th on the ground. Johnny and the fourth took out Mimring, arrow gruts, blade gruts, chompy, the werewolves, the dumatef guard and 3 of the 4 robo rats. Johnny and 1 minuteman were lost. The last rat was taken out by 1 Nakita. Johnny and the minuteman on the ground had the plus 1 attack and the plus 1 defend glyph. A nakita had the "go first" glyph. I only used 3 cards for the whole game, and the Nakitas only once.

[scorpiusx]

heck, dw 7k is an effective counter.

[DarkDino]

The 4th Mass are not broken, with 2 defense they go down pretty quick.

[rehlers]

I've found the 4th mass and Legionnaires to be pretty good for their point value, but neither one has been overly powerful for me.

[DarkDino]

I haven't tryed legionnares yet, but An effective counter to 4th mass is the Minions of utgar, With 6 defense and Deadly strike, they take 4th mass down in a few turns.

[Stealth Dodge]

The 4th Mass are definitely close to being broken, they should cost atleast 90 points.

*They are relatively cheap for a Ranged Squad
*They get 4 attacks which is rare for Range
*In a Proper Army they have 3 Defense
*Their attack and speed are easy to boost

So in Summary they have alot of attacks, a cheap cost, and they are easy to boost

[DWK9000]

I don't think either of them are broken so no vote for me as well. Besides I am not a big fan of the romans too many crappy rolls but I do use Parmino and the sacred band quite often :)