Posting From Work?

[Luther & Calvin Hound]

Hello fellow posters...question...

How many of you post from work? Do you tell your employer?

How many of you are employers?

What would be a fair amount of time out of your work day to spend posting on a forum?

Just wondering...one of my employess must have some sort of auto-minimizer hooked up that reacts to the sound of my ploding feet. As I draw near his screen changes colors....poof...poof...lighting bolt....lightning bolt....almost like some kind of star wars magic. Alas...not fast enough...I found the forum.

Signed,

Luther & Calvin

[hex706f726368]

Does s/he get their work done on time? Beyond that, why would you even care?

[Jim]

I don't get paid to post. I do, however, sometimes get paid while I post. :whistle:

Jim

[Kobu]

Uh...Did you seriously register just to post that? Don't you have better things to do? Or are you really that interested in a hobby site like this? Couldn't you have just asked your employee?

I am an employer and I really don't care as long no one is looking at anything offensive. Reading a newspaper, standing around the watercooler, posting on a forum--as hex wrote, why would you care unless that employee isn't getting things done?

My advice: take some management classes and learn how to effectively communicate with your employees so you don't feel the need to ask these questions of complete strangers.

[Luther & Calvin Hound]

Interesting...don't get me wrong...I post on other sites myself, I really don't know what is fair. Maybe you use this as a little break, maybe you don't take lunch or other breaks.

On the other hand, if you are confident that what you are doing is right as rain, do you leave the site up on your browser throughout the day and as your boss walks up to talk to you? Why hide something that is just fine?

Do you get your work done? What is your job description? How do you define done? All of the tasks that fit within your job description are finished...is there a floor to sweep? Is your desk and work area clean? Could you pitch in elsewhere?

Fact is I posted here because I thought it would be fun. Isn't that what we do?

[InfinityMax]

If my boss walks past my desk, I leave the site up, unless he starts talking to me, then it comes down because I probably need to find a file on the server.

If my boss's boss walks past my desk, I minimize or quit as fast as I can. I haven't ever been in trouble at this job for posting, but I'm wicked good at my job. I'm almost always way ahead of everything, so if I want to take a break from building yet another catalog page, I don't feel the least bit guilty, and nobody says jack squat. I often post when I could be working, but since I'm still faster than anyone else in my office, nobody sweats me for it and I don't feel guilty.

The thing is, if you're trying to find out what your employee is doing, he may be feeling like you've got a problem with him posting from work. If you don't have a problem with him posting from work, and you think he's closing because he thinks he's in trouble, tell him he is not. Don't try to catch your employee at something. If you want him to stop, tell him to stop. If you don't care, tell him that. Lay out exactly what your expectations are. Don't make the poor bastard guess.

One other thing - if your employee has a desk job with a computer and is still supposed to sweep the floors, then I cannot describe the joy I feel at knowing that I do not work for you.

[Luther & Calvin Hound]

One other thing - if your employee has a desk job with a computer and is still supposed to sweep the floors, then I cannot describe the joy I feel at knowing that I do not work for you.


I still sweep the floor...

[hex706f726368]

My boss has sat down next to me while I watch a video on youtube. He's never complained. I'm in the office 35-45 hrs a week, telecommute one day a week and on call 24/7.

I'm a programmer and my boss sets project and general support goals for me during my annual review. As long as I meet these goals (which line up with company goals shockingly :)) he doesn't mind how I fill the gaps. Realistically, I'm a number on a balance sheet. As long as my loaded labor rate times the number hrs estimated to complete the project keeps coming in below the expected return/profit on that project and I get it done on time, I've got a job. :D

[skyknight]

Now I am curious who your employee is.

[markwars]

I am curious about what he does....he has a desk job, but apparently whatever is being done in the office is so messy that they don't have carpet and things must be swept regularly.

[K/H_Addict]

I dont have a job, but i am in school 9 out of 12 months of the year, and post even more there than i do at home. My gpa this past year was about a 3.5. As long as you are getting your work done, i wouldnt gave a damn what you did in your free time, so long as it wasnt ilegal or explicit. Heroscape is not illegal or explicit, so whats the problem?

[Revdyer]

I have a secretary. She is allowed personal phone calls or on-line activity as long as it is not objectionable to the people who might drop into the church office. Because her job is also as a receptionist, with a fair amount of undemanded time, I think it is fine for her to persue other interests, as long as her primary duties come first.

On average, I spend less than ten minutes out of the work day doing personal things on-line. My secretary probably spends a half an hour during a six hour work day. She could spend more and I would not be unhappy, since she does her job well.

[0rbital]

I did all the work on the HCC Sourceforge site from work including the last couple compiles.. I'm a programmer/manager. As long as schedules are met you are pretty much free to do what you want at my work. They block most game sites but this site, Slashdot, and BGG aren't blocked which are the 3 sites I visit regularly.

[Luther & Calvin Hound]

I want to be clear that this fellow is a highly valued employee, probably under paid. I truly posted here because I thought it might be interesting. I am really just picking on him...rest easy.

I do have a couple of questions/observations.

Someone asked if I had told this fellow what I expected and if I had told him to stop. Why is this my responsiblity? I am assuming that this forum is frequented by some pretty smart folks. Wouldn't it make sense to ask your employer if he thinks it is OK for you to participate in a forum like this while using his time and resources? If you as an employee are confused about what you should do with your time shouldn't you ask?

They block most game sites but this site, Slashdot, and BGG aren't blocked which are the 3 sites I visit regularly.

Do you think it is fair that these sites are blocked? Why?

I really am interested in the answers here. I am in the process of considering an acceptable use policy. I have looked at several sample policies available as templates. NONE of them would allow this much personal use of internet time. A former employee of mine spent time surfing and did download a few harmful things. How do I write a policy that prevents this and yet allows other none business related use of email and internet? If you were asked by your employer to write an acceptable use policy for your company's computers what would it say and how would you enforce it?

Many of my larger clients cannot surf because of corporate firewalls. Are these IT departments all full of beans?



http://www.news.com/

Stop reading this headline and get back to work

By Ed Frauenheim
http://news.com.com/Stop+reading+this+headline+and+get+back+to+work/2100-1022_3-5783552.html

Story last modified Wed Jul 13 07:33:50 PDT 2005

Traipsing around the Internet is the most popular form of loafing on the job. The insurance industry is particularly rife with goofing off, and Missouri is the top state for time-wasters.
Those are among the conclusions of a study on wasted time at work released Monday by compensation specialist Salary.com and Web portal America Online. Through a Web survey involving more than 10,000 employees, the report found that personal Internet surfing ranked as the top method of cooling one's heels at work. It was cited by 44.7 percent of respondents as their primary time-wasting activity, followed by socializing with co-workers (23.4 percent) and conducting personal business (6.8 percent).

The average worker admits to frittering away 2.09 hours per day, not counting lunch, according to the report. That's far more time than the roughly one hour per day employers expect the average employee to waste, the report said. The extra unproductive time adds up to $759 billion annually in salaries for which companies get no apparent benefit, the report said.

"It's interesting to note that the Internet was cited as the leading time-wasting activity. It goes to show how integrated it has become to the daily functions of our personal and professional lives," Samara Jaffe, a director at America Online, said in a statement. "Today, there are so many useful tools and Web sites on the Internet that have enabled people to become more efficient with accomplishing multiple tasks in a shorter amount of time."

Unproductive hours on the job may have something to do with workdays growing longer. Between 1977 and 2002, average work hours increased, according to the Families and Work Institute. A growing number of workers favor time off rather than a raise, according to a study published earlier this year.

Average hours wasted per person, per day, were highest in the insurance industry, at 2.5 hours per day. The public sector (excluding education) was second at 2.4 hours per day, followed by research & development at 2.3 hours a day. The "Software & Internet" industry ranked fifth, at 2.2 hours a day.

Those in Missouri wasted an average of 3.2 hours per day, per person, according to the report. Indiana ranked second at 2.8 hours per day.

More-than-expected time spent goofing off isn't necessarily a bad thing, argued Bill Coleman, senior vice president at Salary.com. "In some cases this extra wasted time might be considered 'creative waste'--time that may well have a positive impact on the company's culture, work environment, and even business results," Coleman said in a statement. "Personal Internet use and casual office conversations often turn into new business ideas or suggestions for gaining operating efficiencies."

Copyright ©1995-2006 CNET Networks, Inc. All rights reserved.

[bunjee]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I can tell you that your employee doesn't post that much from work. Most that happen within the work day, are around what I would expect is a lunch time, or early in the day. Even then, not even once a day during work hours.

Acceptable use policies are difficult to define. Many people who work at a desk feel a little bit isolated and look for things to bring them out a funk. When I used to work in a warehouse, I would be able to have conversations with my co-workers while I worked, even if I really didn't have that much to talk to them about, it was some sort of social interaction. I've always felt that the important thing is that they and you are happy with them and their work. I've certainly known people in the past who seemed to take tons of smoke and coffee breaks that would eat up the day pretty quick.

As the closing paragraph in your quoted article states, creative stimulation is sometimes a part of this sort of behavior. Based on you're information, and that of your employee, I'm guessing that there may be some nice ideas garnered from interaction with this group. There are a number of professional artists here, and they often share their tips and tricks with each other, especially in the realm of things like the HS Codex.

I'm glad you consider the person a valued employee, they are definitely a valued and clear spoken member of this community that I hope to get to know better come August.

[Codeman]

I only read or post HS forum from home. Work computer is for work.

1. That is company policy
2. It would be too diffucult for me to switch gears between work and HS
3. I don’t totally understand the mechanics of our internet / intranet system, but if people were using their PC on unrelated work items I think it would have a detrimental effect for those at work or dealers outside trying to connect on business matters. Nothing is free - so even posting at lunch would have an affect on the system.

More thoughts:
Someone made a comment about as long as you’re getting your “work done”. I wonder what kind of job that would be? I’ve worked a lot of years and I can’t say I’ve ever come close to getting “ work done “. If you can reach that level your employer must have hired too many people.

I just must be old school as I don’t see or feel comfortable doing or see someone else using company time to do something similar to going on a Heroscape Forum. Now that I’ve said that I also understand there is wide variety of jobs out there and there and I believe there are a few exception to what I just said.

[quixotequest]

I have a very deadline driven, creative job. If I take a break to post I make up for it by staying longer. This creative culture and expectation extends to all my staff. They get some discretionary slack time, but sometimes they have to pull in long days, late nights or weekends to meet a deadline. There has to be give and take. Employers do not "own" their employees nor their time. Both parties should benefit in the exchange of labor for money. The one thing I expect is that our billable hours to clients are accurate billable hours. So where we enjoy some slack time we essentially have to be successful enough to "pay" for that time.

Sometimes individually or collectively things can get a little too slack, but then I pow-wow with the team or individual and correct course. That is my responsibility as a manger to see the "big game" and make sure goals are being met while everyone enjoys a little leeway to figure out how to produce results. When you do creative work (and many more jobs are creative than you might think) you must have stimulus and you have to give employees flexibility, with clear expectations for results needed and on what timetable. If you do this employees will bend over backwards for you and thank you for the opportunity. That loyalty is worth more than money.

Ideas don't come on a 9 to 5 schedule. At least in my line of work (animation and entertainment) the value is more for the ideas and you have to create an environment where people can have some room to breathe, experiment and stretch their thinking. Yeah, you have to execute on those ideas, too, and you can't do that goofing off too much but that's where you have to be appropriate and flexible as a manager. Otherwise if it is 8 hours+ of solid nose to the grindstone creative people never produce anything worthwhile.

But that is my take on my line of business. Frankly I can't tell if you're putting us on. Or is this just a bit of ****s n giggles social research?

[skyknight]

You see it is different for me, I really do not give my employees alot of time to slack off. But then again I am not in a computer oriented business, I run a winery. If folks are standing around there are alot of things to be done. Dusting, moving wine, shipping, I mean there is always something to do. But in turn these guys do get a couple of fives throughout the day so I guess that could be considered their play time. Generally though my wife and I keep people busy. As you have said though sir this person is a valuable resource. We have a couple of people who have been at the winery for thirteen years, they get alot of head way and freedoms, that may be part of it too.

[Luther & Calvin Hound]

A wide range of responses.

I like the "shift gears" part. If you are the type that works on projects...don't you hate it when the phone rings right in the middle of something...you almost have to start over.

I am guessing that the younger you are the more you think non-business related internet use is no problem at all. I am sure that many of you manage your time well and are fair. I am also sure that you all have a coworker that you think spends way to much time surfing. I find it interesting that online retailers do the most business during regular business hours.

My personal experiance is that I am better off without it. I frequent a local forum, local people posting about local stuff. If I get into a thread that I find interesting I have a hard time shutting it off. Even if I am not posting I am reading. I think the best solution for me is cold turkey, post from home. Another thing that I have done is set my home page on the browser to a blank page. I use the net to look up product info all the time. I am better off if my browser does not open to yahoo or MSN or some other interesting site. That way I don't get sucked in.

When I started work I had a rotary telephone on my desk. I don't care what the job, you would never dream of bringing a paper back book to work and pick it up and read it for 2 minutes out of every 10.

Those that think the posting from work is OK...if asked to write a policy, what would it say? Are all of your coworkers as responsible as you are?

[InfinityMax]

My office doesn't have an acceptable use policy. We have an intern, a college kid, who works more than most of us. We have a rookie designer at her first design gig, just out of college, and she busts a ton of ass. We have a support/production/technical guy, and if he screwed around any more, he could work from home - but he is never behind, and if we need something, he's all over it. We've got me - I'm 36, I'm fast and accurate and responsible, and I'm typing this from work. We've got my boss, who occasionally calls us into his office to see the funny shirts, odd videos, or goofy sites he finds while cruising the 'net, but other times spends 12 hours in a row at an offsite photo shoot, and occasionally has to fly to China to press check a catalog. We all work. When the chips are down, we all pitch in. When life is easy, we goof off a lot.

An acceptable use policy replaces trust. I don't think the solution is to have a written policy. The solution (if you ask me) is to trust your people until they prove they aren't worth it. Once you know you can't trust that one guy, you pull him out and say, 'you goof off too much, and your work has suffered.' The work gets better or you get a new employee.

You've said the guy is a good employee, Hound. I say, until he really screws the pooch because he was farting around, give him all the slack he wants.

[0rbital]

My work is the same way InfinityMax.

It doesn't make me think I'm abusing my work's net connection by browsing this forum and a couple other websites a few minutes here and there. I don't take breaks which I'm entitled to 30 minutes of them a day and I don't smoke (which is even more breaks) so I use that time browsing a few sites on the web and at lunch if I'm not out.

As for other people I don't care what they are doing as long as things get done on schedule. The group I work in now has no micromanaging at all which is really nice.

[bunjee]

Luther & Calvin Hound-

Since you mentioned you had an employee surf offensive (I assume you mean porn) sites, I would stick around that. In the over litigious society that has begun to develop, I could see some crack lawyer saying "You fired him for surfing porn? Did you ever say he couldn't surf porn?" Sigh.

My self, I used to be much more active on these forums, and then I decided that it was starting to impact my work day, so I slowed down. Now I mostly keep it to mornings, and after work. Right now, things are a little slow and there are times where I am stuck manning a phone line. So I'll take a look and post then.

A simple acceptable use policy usually states the obvious. No porn, don't install games on work computers. But I would avoid stating that you don't allow chat programs. As with simple gossip around the water cooler, it can be a nice break, if the gabfest happens constantly, the boss tells people they need to cut it down.

[Xotli]

As a former employer, our "policy" (never written, but explicitly stated) was that we never gave a crap what you did, or when you did it, as long as you weren't trying to bill for it. Now, we had the advantage of having a simple way to measure that--a piece of software that you would "start a timer" when you started working, and "pause the timer" when you wanted to take a break. So it was easy for us to draw a quite objective line: if you're timing, you better be working (and vice versa, FTM). Lacking that, you admittedly have a much more subjective time of it to try to determine "is this person getting their work done" or not, but that's just part of the challenge of management, and it has nothing to do with the Internet.

It really boggles my mind how we as a society can blame the latest "big thing" for all our problems over and over again and never notice that it continues never to be true. You indicate you've been around for a few years, so you probably know that once upon a time, everything was rock'n'roll's fault. Then everything was television's fault. Then metal muisc, then rap. Now everything is the Internet's fault, although we're gradually shifting to everything being the fault of video games. This is all a giant crock of :horsepoo:.

My point being that an employee who doesn't get their work done isn't going to get their work done, whether you cut off their Internet access, limit personal phone calls, stick a webcam over their desk and watch their every move--it just doesn't matter. People who are like that are always going to screw around when they ought to be working and there's nothing you can do about it except fire them (which is what you really ought to do). And people who are not like that don't need the micromanagement, and definitely aren't going to appreciate the lack of trust you would be showing them.

As for the article you quote, that demonstrates one of the reasons why I believe corporate America is so screwed up in the head: this attitude that every second you're at work that you're not working is therefore "wasted time." What a crock! Humans require breaks from mental effort, social interaction, freedom from worry (about their kids, their parents, their banks, their cars, etc), and a certain comfort zone. All this they get from taking breaks, calling home, chatting with coworkers, and so forth. This makes them more productive, not less so.

Now, you said a couple of interesting things that I'd like to respond to directly:

On the other hand, if you are confident that what you are doing is right as rain, do you leave the site up on your browser throughout the day and as your boss walks up to talk to you? Why hide something that is just fine?
I believe the average American corporate worker is very well aware of the corporate attitudes that I outlined above. They know that such attitudes are stupid and wrong, but that won't save them from being fired. At a certain level of "removed-ness" (e.g. Imax's example of the boss being okay, but not the boss's boss), it doesn't even matter how good an employee you are: you can get fired just to "make an example." I have seen many companies do things which were not only stupid but also completely financially damaging just because they "couldn't set a precedent."

Given this atmosphere of fear that most corporate workers have to live in, is it any surprise that they're a bit jumpy? It's only the employees lucky enough to have bosses who specifically tell them that they don't subscribe to this outlook who feel comfortable enough to leave the site up (and, as you note, many here have said they fall into that group).

Someone asked if I had told this fellow what I expected and if I had told him to stop. Why is this my responsiblity?
You're kidding, right? Why is it the responsibility of the manager to tell the employee what's expected of him or her? Because that's what managers do. I honestly don't know what to say other than that.

Many of my larger clients cannot surf because of corporate firewalls. Are these IT departments all full of beans?
Yes. As a consultant, I've worked in and with many large corporations. Thus far I have never found one that wasn't completely falling apart on the inside, regardless of what their performance seemed like from the outside, and it's for exactly these sorts of reasons. Big companies exist and continue to profit for many different reasons--inertia, "innovating" by buying smaller companies, creative accounting--but so far IME "doing their job well" has never been one of them.

If I get into a thread that I find interesting I have a hard time shutting it off. Even if I am not posting I am reading.
Some people are like that. Some people can't stop drinking, some can't stop watching TV, some can't stop screwing around with their lawn until it dies, some can't stop buying Heroscap stuff. :D Every person has to figure out how to control their own obsessions and addictions, and for some, cold turkey is the answer ... sounds like you worked this out for yourself based on your own personality. Hopefully your employees can do the same, and, if they can't, you should try to help them do so as much as you can, and if that don't work, they gotta go.

Those that think the posting from work is OK...if asked to write a policy, what would it say?
It would probably be very simple and a lawyer would throw up his/her hands in despair at it. It would just be something like "Get your work done, don't do anything that would cost us extra money, and don't do anything that will get us sued. Other than that, you're free to do what makes you a happy and productive employee." But then, I'm also one of those people who thinks that if you have an employee who wants to nitpick your every word, they gotta go too.

[markwars]

Xotli your post was a pleasure to read. I hope that L&CH can take some of what you've written and apply it to their own management style for their employees' sake.

I'm with IMax in that I can't help but think "I'm glad this joker isn't my boss".

L&CH you seem like you want us to write a policy for you, but frankly I don't trust that that is your only objective. One minute you seem like you understand your employee's point of view, but the next you seem like you're trying to get those of us reading this thread to "see it your way". I can't put my finger on it, but for some reason I'm having a hard time taking everything you say at face value.

What I do know is this...

For all practical purposes I am the only boss in my office. My boss is only in our offices about two days a month and he's far too busy to worry about what the minute by minute activities of our employees are. His advice to me in the past has been, "As long as projects are going out and the public has no complaints than neither do I".

It's interesting that I actually worked as an intern in my current department when I was in college. The guy that had my job was a micromanaging nazi that wanted to dictate what we wore, when we worked, what we worked on, etc. I can understand decorum, but making interns that are earning next to nothing wear slacks and ties to do field work was wrong. Making us beg to change our schedules during finals week was wrong. Giving us no personal freedoms in the office was wrong. So after five years in the real world (post college) I got a chance to come back and work in that guy's position. My first thought was "Don't be like him". And I haven't been. Employees that aren't dealing with the public don't have a dress code. As long as people work 40 hours a week (and can prove it with results) I don't care what kind of schedule they keep. And for gods sakes if they want to post on a message board from work then who cares. And you know what...our office productivity has nearly doubled since I took the position. Sure we have an occasional game of tape ball in the warehouse or an unscheduled gathering at someone's desk to watch various YouTube hilarity, but the bottom line is that my employees (from interns to the gray beards) are happier and more productive than they ever were under the Taskmaster.

[Luther & Calvin Hound]

How about this sample I got from one of my customers?



Computer Policy


The company intends to honor the policies set forth below but reserves the right to change them at any time.

• The company maintains a computer, software and electronic mail system, hereafter called the "system.” This system is provided by the company to assist in conducting business within the company.
• The system hardware is company property. Additionally, all software, files, and messages composed, sent, or received on the system are and remain the property of the company. They are not the private property of any employee.
• The use of the system is reserved solely for conducting business of the company. It may not be used for personal business.
• The system may not be used to solicit or attempt to convert for commercial ventures, religious or political causes, outside organizations, or other non-job-related solicitations.
• The system is not to be used to create any offensive or disruptive messages. Among those which are considered offensive are any messages which contain sexual implications, racial slurs, gender-specific comments, or any other comment that offensively addresses someone's age, sexual orientation, religious or political beliefs, national origin, or disability.
• The system shall not be used to send (upload) or receive (download) copyrighted materials, trade secrets, proprietary financial information, or similar materials without prior authorization.
• The company reserves and intends to exercise the right to review, audit, intercept, access and disclose all software, files, and messages created, received or sent over the system for any purpose. The contents of any file or electronic mail properly obtained for legitimate purposes may be disclosed within the company without the permission of the employee.
• Users are forbidden from downloading and/or installing software from the Internet. This includes, but is not limited to, screen savers and background images.
• Only IT personnel are authorized to install software.
• The confidentiality of any file or message should not be assumed. Even when a file or message is erased, it is still possible to retrieve and read. Further, the use of passwords for security does not guarantee confidentiality
• Notwithstanding the company's right to retrieve and read any file or electronic mail messages, such files or messages should be treated as confidential by other employees and accessed only by the intended recipient. Employees are not authorized to retrieve or read any file or e-mail messages that are not sent to them. Any exception to this policy must receive prior approval by the employer.
• An employee who discovers a violation of this policy shall notify the Security Officer.
• An employee who violates this policy or uses the system for improper purposes shall be subject to discipline, up to and including discharge.


I have read the company’s policy on and understand the potential consequences of violation of the policy.

Enter your name:

Check this box 0 EMPLOYEE SIGNATURE via email

Go to File—Send To—

[reapersaurus]

Xotli - that was a great post, responding to Luther's questions.

Luther - I don't feel that you are out to get anone, or have a particularly bad attitude on all this - I just think you are trapped in a (possibly-outdated) mindset that doesn't fully address the most important aspects of being a good employee/employer.

But by all means, keep posting - it is enjoyable reading different perspectives, and sharing approaches.

[skyknight]

I agree Luther, it is not an easy subject to approach. While I want my employees happy, I also understand that I am paying them as well. For each one of them not there I could have new equipment for the winery. Makes it tough to see them goofin off. I am happy to say most of my folks only goof off when I don't care, the others are gone :roll:

[countblah]

Skynight....

Is your winery local, or do you export to a wide number of places? Is it possible that I could get a bottle? I want to know if I can taste the goofing-off :D .

[bunjee]

That is a fairly standard tech agreement. Any lawyer would probably say there wouldn't be too much you could do if the person was protected under Free Speech, but most of the agreement discusses company based things that would be protected.

• The use of the system is reserved solely for conducting business of the company. It may not be used for personal business.This bit is probably the part most would have a problem with. If I was at a computer all day for my job, but wasn't allowed to check my email on occasion, I'd get pretty steamed. This is the same vein as the personal phone calls policy that started when Telephones became common. I probably wouldn't include it in my policy as I want people to be relaxed and happy when they are working. You don't have to have a policy in place to reprimand an employee for spending too much time on non-work related things during work hours.

• Users are forbidden from downloading and/or installing software from the Internet. This includes, but is not limited to, screen savers and background images.
• Only IT personnel are authorized to install software.
As long as you actually have designated IT personnel, this is fine. If you don't then you would need to change it to:
• Users are forbidden from downloading and/or installing software from the Internet. This includes, but is not limited to, screen savers and background images. Software necessary for job function may be installed with prior approval from your employer.

[InfinityMax]

How about this sample I got from one of my customers?

<snipped>

If my boss told me this was our new policy, I would quit. Here's a list of clauses in that policy I break almost every day:

• The system hardware is company property. Additionally, all software, files, and messages composed, sent, or received on the system are and remain the property of the company. They are not the private property of any employee.
• The use of the system is reserved solely for conducting business of the company. It may not be used for personal business.
• The system may not be used to solicit or attempt to convert for commercial ventures, religious or political causes, outside organizations, or other non-job-related solicitations.
• The system is not to be used to create any offensive or disruptive messages. Among those which are considered offensive are any messages which contain sexual implications, racial slurs, gender-specific comments, or any other comment that offensively addresses someone's age, sexual orientation, religious or political beliefs, national origin, or disability.
• The system shall not be used to send (upload) or receive (download) copyrighted materials, trade secrets, proprietary financial information, or similar materials without prior authorization.
• Users are forbidden from downloading and/or installing software from the Internet. This includes, but is not limited to, screen savers and background images.
• Only IT personnel are authorized to install software.

And I wouldn't follow this part with a gun to my head and the hammer back:

• An employee who discovers a violation of this policy shall notify the Security Officer.

I'll notify the security officer about what time he can come over to service my genitalia before I rat someone else out for checking on their eBay bids.

I had a bad piece of news today at work, and it's got me pretty upset. I'm stewing, and I'm trying to decide when to tell them I quit. But after reading the stuff your employees have to deal with, Hound, I'm actually really grateful for my office. I mean, I'm still quitting, but it's good to know that other people have it so much worse.

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

Yeah, my employees do really think I am an ass... it is amazing to me that some of them have hung around for 20 years...

My initial post was probably a knee jerk reaction to a particularly hard day. I have continued to post as I am finding the range of response to this thread quite interesting. I really don't know what I think any more.

I am amazed at some of the responses. I find some of them to have a sense of entitlement that only a young inexperianced employee would have.

I understand that my employees need flexibility and I think I provide that. It does seem to me that every time a new wizbang gizmo shows up I am supposed to ignore it. Cell phones on the shop floor. Email that allows you to run your kids softball league from my office without really appearing to. Websites that allow you to shop for your new bamboo steamer at 3:00 in the afternoon instead of latter at home.

The idea that hardware that I paid for in a building that I paid for sitting on a desk that I paid for in airconditioning that I pay for connected to an internet connection that I pay for (with an identifiable static IP) during time that I pay for is not mine to control seems strange to me.

I also understand that managing all of this is my weak point. I have often told myself that I need to do more "managing by walking around". That said, given the correct incentive people seem to manage their time quite well. I do have one person in my office that NEVER surfs the internet. HATES personal phone calls. NEVER plans her vacation from her desk, has no idea that there is a cold front that will hit in about two hours. She works for straight commission. Somehow she never gets bored or worn out. She never lacks inspiration. What gives?

[Xotli]

How about this sample I got from one of my customers?

What bunjee said, and especially what Imax said.

Let me see if I can put this in a light that even the most financially-focussed corporate person (not implying that's you, of course) would agree with:

:arrow: Your employees are salaried (if they're not, then I don't know why we're having this discussion--just make them clock out before they do anything non-work-related).

:arrow: Since you pay the same amount for salary no matter how many hours the employee works, it is to your direct financial gain to encourage the employee to work more hours.

:arrow: The vast majority of your employees are not going to do any work for you unless they're physically at work.

:arrow: Therefore, in order to encourage your employees to work more hours, you must encourage them to stay at work longer.

Now, given all that, do you really want to institute a policy that encourages your employees to rush away from work as fast as they can so that they can act like normal people instead of inhabitants of a Soviet gulag? Or would you rather they feel like work is a place they want to be?

When I was an employer, people would come to work sometimes when they weren't even supposed to be there. Just to hang out. Everybody loved coming to work. Everybody stayed late, and I never had to ask. Our productivity was fantastic. And our policy was even more liberal than what I suggested to you. Because our policy was that liberal, really.

I'll return to something I said earlier: we had a simple metric to measure productivity with. Maybe you should try to come up with something like that for your company; I'm sure there's lots of sites on the Internet that you could search for info on that. Once you have such a metric in place and you feel comfortable that it's accurate, you can actually experiment with changing policies and see how it impacts you. Until then, you're just assuming that trying to pinch seconds (as opposed to pinching pennies) is going to impact your bottom line positively. And I'm sure you've been in business long enough to know what happens when you assume ...


Oh, and Imax, so sorry to hear about your bad work news. Hope it all works out in the end.

[ultradoug]

let me know where this person employs at so i never work for this jerk.

[Xotli]

I find some of them to have a sense of entitlement that only a young inexperianced employee would have.
Now, if I said that I find some of your posts to have a sense of inflexibility that only an older ossified boss would have, would you find that insulting? I tend to think that you would. So why try to make that assumption in reverse?

I personally would be quite thrilled to be considered young, although I think that amongst this crowd only you and the Reverend would actually consider me so--and, strangely enough, the Reverend was yet another person who teneded to agree, on the whole, with what most of us are saying.

I think you are trying to find some reason why those of us on this side of this issue must be wrong, despite the fact that we constitute the majority of opinions expressed. If we're all "young" and "feeling entitled" then our opinions have no validity. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case. Personally, for instance, I have only expressed to you my perspective from the employer's side of the equation--and perhaps I should make it clear that I was not just the manager in this particular situation. I owned the company. The only thing I was looking to be "entitled" to was financial success for my company. Many others here have also expressed managerial viewpoints for which your perceived sense of "entitlement" makes no real sense.

It does seem to me that every time a new wizbang gizmo shows up I am supposed to ignore it.
Again, I'd say you're focusing on the wrong things. The question is do you want your employees to feel happy to be at work, or like they're under constant surveillance? The "wizbang gizmos" are just a diversion from that question.

The idea that hardware that I paid for in a building that I paid for sitting on a desk that I paid for in airconditioning that I pay for connected to an internet connection that I pay for (with an identifiable static IP) during time that I pay for is not mine to control seems strange to me.
No, this is completely wrong; no one here is telling you that those things are not yours to control. In fact, what we are saying is that because they are yours to control, you get to make the decisions. Some decisions you make will make your employees happy. Some will make them miserable. Your choice.

I do have one person in my office that NEVER surfs the internet. HATES personal phone calls. NEVER plans her vacation from her desk, has no idea that there is a cold front that will hit in about two hours. She works for straight commission. Somehow she never gets bored or worn out. She never lacks inspiration. What gives?
One of the glories of the human condition is that we are all different. When I say that humans are social creatures, obviously it is true that some of us are not. When I say that everyone needs to feel comfortable to be productive, obviously some of us don't. You may feel "lucky" to have such a person. Personally I would just say that she works differently than most, which is really neither an advantage nor a disadvantage. Unless she's your HR person, in which case I might consider it a disadvantage.

[skyknight]

I also guess it matters what goofing around is considered from your point of view. My employees have no reason to be on the business computer, so thats that. But they are allowed to drink a little on the job as long as it does not get out of hand. But I seem to be falling somewhere in the middle on this I guess. My workplace is a little different than yours, but if I am paying someone to pick grapes then they better be picking grapes. These rules are also flexible on the premise that our Winemaker and chef have almost free reign since they have earned it.

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

but if I am paying someone to pick grapes then they better be picking grapes

This seems rather inflexible to me. I would think that some sort of trailer contraption with wireless connection that they could drag along behind them so as to not feel left out of the loop.

You folks really ought to know me outside of this forum. I am pounding away at this issue. I really am a nice guy that has very happy employees that have more freedom than most of them could have ever imagined. I am just amazed at the amount of backlash that I get by suggesting that maybe using the internet at work for personal stuff is not what you should be doing.

We are actually missing a few ship dates right now because I really think that my production staff deserve to take vacations when they want to. The place has been short staffed for three weeks.

Most of my office staff is salaried. I do expect them to come early and stay late if they have a deadline or we are in a pinch. This seldom happens. I think we do have a nice place to work but most of my staff prefer there homes and families.

I suppose the next topic should be file sharing....

[skyknight]

Heres the kicker though, I post at work :lol: Hey Luther do you play Heroscae at all? This is the first time I have seen you around obviously. I have not gamed in about ten years until I found this particular game. If you have kids you should really pick up a set and give it a try. This site is nice as well, we have every walk of life here. Give it a try maybe, I know you have an employee that plays :lol:

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

I do have an employee that plays...how did you guess?

He has gotten my kids into the game, they play with him and his group of gamers.

I am far to old and uptight to have any fun at all.

[skyknight]

I'm not extremely old but I am on my way. Give it a try someday. Your kids would appreciate it I bet :)

[Xotli]

I am just amazed at the amount of backlash that I get by suggesting that maybe using the internet at work for personal stuff is not what you should be doing.
Indeed. Now, what would be interesting to me is, is this something that you'll take with you from this forum and use to reexamine your ideas, or is it something to be dismissed on account of our youth and sense of entitlement?

I think we do have a nice place to work but most of my staff prefer there homes and families.
Yep, I think most people will, especially once they have families of their own. But that doesn't mean they can't like being at work too.

I suppose the next topic should be file sharing....
Eek! Don't get me started on that. :D


Oh, and BTW, it occurs to me that I didn't say thank you to markwars and reaper for their kind words on my first post. So: thanks guys.

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

Indeed. Now, what would be interesting to me is, is this something that you'll take with you from this forum and use to reexamine your ideas, or is it something to be dismissed on account of our youth and sense of entitlement?

This is kind of an intersting statement. There is this assumption that as you get older you get more inflexible and set in your ways. I think this view is held by young people. I think if you ask most older folks you will find that they hold the view that the older you get the less you know. This comes from finding out today that what you were certain of yesterday just isn't so.

You fellows will find this to be true. At some point in time the shoe will be on the other foot. I do have an experiment for you...I am sure there are a few guys here that have a nice hand picked souped up gaming computer at home...something that cost them several thousand bucks, something they worked hard for, postponed a vacation for...Wouldn't it be a good idea to invite me over to play with it...? no looking over my shoulder either...

[Codeman]

Sorry if I’m getting off the Thread Topic, but the point about older people being more inflexible. I know that is a stereotype, but I actually believe as one gets older and has more experiences they have more acceptance to change since that is what they’ve spent most of their live adapting to. I know a lot of young who seem to fight and complain about change allot more than the older folks at work. Just an observation. I know myself I am more flexible to change than when I was younger.

[quixotequest]

Luther-- I hope you _are_ a nicer person in real life than what you appear. (I don't think there is anything humorous or positive in admitting that people think you are an ass unless this whole conversation is not as serious as you seem to want it to be.)

So I don't want to get too personal in being so frank: you do come off to me overly control-oriented. You seem to get bothered by having someone like me, a business manager (senior creative VP) telling you the difference in what, as an employer, I think we control and what we "own." We can control our behavior, our reactions and what we require. We can control who we hire and who we fire. We do not own people, their brains nor their passions and hearts. Those are willingly given where trust is engendered.

The level of distrust that seems to appear in your posts makes me think you don't understand this difference between control and ownership. I don't debate your right to control I question why you appear to want to exercise--what to me--seems like an unproductive sense of ownership and bossiness. Your managerial persona seems very immature of issues of persuasion and understanding human motivations and needs. Ultimately I question whether your employees will trust you because you seem to question their ability to fairly weigh the balance between their work and personal lives. You seem to want slaves for your money.

I hope these appearances to me are just that, and you really are more reasonable in "real life."

Xotli, in my mind, displays an uncommon smartness and openness to seeing things how they are and not how we wish to control them to be. Please trust your employees. Be clear in the performance you need and the time allowed to do that. Create an environment where employees WANT to be at work, where they WANT to perform for you because they know you trust and value their brains and integrity. Where they are recognized in money, praise and/or intangibles for performance not seniority, not for weathering tough times, not for friendship. Nothing but performance delivered per your clear expectations. If someone crosses your line then fire them. Quickly. You don't want to tolerate bad integrity. But a fair blend of personal needs and work needs can comfortably coexist while on the job without integrity being sacrificed. I ask you to consider that the line can be wider, more liberal and tolerant than what you appear to want--without sacrificing profits and productivity.

Maybe, at age 37, I am still "young and entitled," but I'm not naive. I know how to run a business, its balance sheet, deliver a profit and manage huge budgets. There really is room to have, especially with salaried employees, a greater sense of trust and generosity that they will give you good labor for good pay.

But on filesharing I may be more "friendly" to the opinions you hold now. I work in the intellectual property business so I expect copyrights of others to be respected.

[Xotli]

Indeed. Now, what would be interesting to me is, is this something that you'll take with you from this forum and use to reexamine your ideas, or is it something to be dismissed on account of our youth and sense of entitlement?This is kind of an intersting statement. There is this assumption that as you get older you get more inflexible and set in your ways. I think this view is held by young people.
Wait, which of us is making assumptions? I don't think that all older people are inflexible. I think that the Reverend is a brilliant counterexample to that idea. The only time I mentioned inflexibility was as a foil to your apparent assumptions about "young" people; as I said, if I were to say that, it would be insulting (which is why I didn't actually say it). The statement of mine you quote is not based in any way on my ideas about "older people"; it comes 100% from statements that you made. Whereas, in contrast, even your statement about assumptions is followed by an assumption (that the source of these assumptions is "young people").

This comes from finding out today that what you were certain of yesterday just isn't so.
Exactly. And that's what I was asking: are you finding out today that what you were certain of yesterday (when you made the original posting) just isn't so?

Noted educator Lyman Bryson once said: "The error of youth is to believe that intelligence is a substitute for experience, while the error of age is to believe experience is a substitute for intelligence." Which I've always interpreted to mean that we all have a lot to learn from each other.


quixotequest--Thanks for the kind words. I think your comments on control are right on target.

[InfinityMax]

let me know where this person employs at so i never work for this jerk.

I don't think it's fair to call Hound a jerk. I don't want to work for him, but I don't know him. It might be that he's a really good guy. He is obviously trying to find a good solution that will satisfy everyone and still make sure his office keeps running, and the fact that he is continuing this dialog means that he is at least open-minded about the opinions of other people. That alone is admirable.

It sounds to me like Hound is an old-school boss, the kind that believes that work and pleasure should not mix. That's fine, but that's not the kind of company where I would work. If I have to spend most of my life at a place, I want to be happy I'm there. If I work some place where I am expected to tell a security officer when a fellow employee is listening to iTunes all day, I will not be happy. I will be paranoid and stressed out, and I won't get nearly the amount of work done that I do now.

[InfinityMax]

But they are allowed to drink a little on the job as long as it does not get out of hand.

That's it, I'm quitting and moving to New York. I hope you need a designer, Skyknight, especially one that works better when he's three sheets to the wind.

[Malechi]

But they are allowed to drink a little on the job as long as it does not get out of hand.

... one that works better when he's three sheets to the wind.

Or, at least, you believe you do ... :wink: That is until you see the "finished" work the next day and are heard to to ask the question "Who made this crap?"

:twisted:

[ninthdoc]

I don't know, Malechi. They say an Irishman is never drunk, so long as he can hold on to a single blade of grass and not fall off the face of the Earth. Now I don't know if Imax is Irish (I'm bettin' not, since I know his last name IRL, as do many here... :wink: ), but I've seen the man in two-fisted drinking action and I can say w/great surety, that he ought to be an honorary one.

[Malechi]

I'll let you know if I ever meet IMax IRL; as I myself am half Irish/half Danish (basically, a drunk Viking) and all American!

[skyknight]

But they are allowed to drink a little on the job as long as it does not get out of hand.

That's it, I'm quitting and moving to New York. I hope you need a designer, Skyknight, especially one that works better when he's three sheets to the wind.

:lol: I couldn't pay you what you are worth Imax. If I ever win this stupid powerball lottery though I will hire you to sit in my downstairs and make HS customs all day :D I'll help.

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

Yeah, my employees do really think I am an ass... it is amazing to me that some of them have hung around for 20 years...


I do sometimes get misunderstood due to my tendency to use extreme forms of sarcasm.

There are some really bright folks on this board. It probably would be a good place to look for help.

I don't debate your right to control I question why you appear to want to exercise--what to me--seems like an unproductive sense of ownership and bossiness

I will agree with this. This is where I am confused. I will say that I get my back up when it appears to me that there those that are indignant with the idea that I would even consider some form of ownership or control over my stuff. It is, after all, my stuff...right? Or am I wrong there too.

The idea that you would quit your job because your employer won't let you put a screen saver on your computer seems quite extreme to me.

Xotli, in my mind, displays an uncommon smartness and openness to seeing things how they are and not how we wish to control them to be. Please trust your employees. Be clear in the performance you need and the time allowed to do that. Create an environment where employees WANT to be at work, where they WANT to perform for you because they know you trust and value their brains and integrity. Where they are recognized in money, praise and/or intangibles for performance not seniority, not for weathering tough times, not for friendship. Nothing but performance delivered per your clear expectations. If someone crosses your line then fire them. Quickly. You don't want to tolerate bad integrity. But a fair blend of personal needs and work needs can comfortably coexist while on the job without integrity being sacrificed. I ask you to consider that the line can be wider, more liberal and tolerant than what you appear to want--without sacrificing profits and productivity.

I like this...alot. Thanks. I bet if we had a longer conversation you would find most of my employee relationships too liberal. It takes me a LONG time to fire.

I did have lunch with my employee...all is well...it always was really.

Now all of you... back to work.

[skyknight]

But it's my day off :P

[0rbital]

I hit 10 years at my job last month and got 1 month of sabbatical. No work for me this month :D

[Xotli]

I do sometimes get misunderstood due to my tendency to use extreme forms of sarcasm.
Nah. We all use sarcasm here and there. :)

I will say that I get my back up when it appears to me that there those that are indignant with the idea that I would even consider some form of ownership or control over my stuff. It is, after all, my stuff...right? Or am I wrong there too.
Nope, not wrong at all. It's only a question of how you decide to exercise your ownership.

The idea that you would quit your job because your employer won't let you put a screen saver on your computer seems quite extreme to me.
No, I don't think any of us here would want to quit if that was the only such rule. The point we were trying to make is if that rule is part of a larger policy (such as the one you posted) it just contributes to a feeling of discomfort. After all, it's really tough to justify from a business perspective: how can installing a screen saver cost the company anything, in either time, money, or productivity? It makes the employee wonder if the rules aren't just arbitrarily designed to "keep a man down."

Now all of you... back to work.
Heh. I need to actually get to work. I have very flexible hours at my job. :wink:


I hit 10 years at my job last month and got 1 month of sabbatical. No work for me this month :D
Nice one Orbital! So HCC is going to be leaping forward this month, eh? :lol:

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

No, I don't think any of us here would want to quit if that was the only such rule. The point we were trying to make is if that rule is part of a larger policy (such as the one you posted) it just contributes to a feeling of discomfort. After all, it's really tough to justify from a business perspective: how can installing a screen saver cost the company anything, in either time, money, or productivity? It makes the employee wonder if the rules aren't just arbitrarily designed to "keep a man down."

The rules that I posted were from a bank. I would suggest that if you struggle with this type of structure you will never work for a larger financial institution, law firm, goverment...nice jobs otherwise...

I am also going to assume that most of you posters are techy type guys with techy type jobs. Unless you have been in charge of the IT stuff at a company full of clerical types that love to install bubbling aquarium screen savers with snazzy little fishy mouse trails on computers that really work good on email and word processing ...but not much more... then they march into your office to tell you their computer is slow...so you uninstall all the gizmos only to have them start the whole thing all over again...because it is just one little thing...just this one...

It is a shame that sometime policies need to be written to fix the weakest link.

[truth]

I, like Imax, hold a creative job. Its not easy at all to create at a constant pace, and its sometimes difficult for those who don't work in this kind of field to understand just why. Sometimes you can get in a groove and work for 12 hours on one thing without thinking, but other times your just not feeling inspired. So long as I'm doing good work in a timely manner I don't feel guilty about breaking for short periods to check up on the site. I don't read threads while at work. But just check on the general nature of things:

- Is big news hitting?
- Are there technical issues with the site?
- Is everyone behaving themselves?
- Are we planning a raid on Hasbro and demanding a change in distrobution?

[InfinityMax]

Hound, I think part of the reason you and I are disagreeing about control is the nature of the work you do versus the work I do. I'm an artist. I'm also very good with the software and know what I need to do my job. I don't surf porn from my machine at work, but I do surf a lot. Sometimes I'll be on for three hours, looking for images that spark my imagination for a particular project. Sometimes I'll tool around for a while looking for photos I can use as illustration reference. And sometimes I just check out Gordon Keith to see if David Hasselhoff has a new music video.

If you work in a bank, it's generally understood that people have a stick in their rectums. Financial and legal environments, when compared to design studios, are notoriously conservative. It does not make sense to allow bankers to spend time checking out He-Man parodies; it's pretty much accepted that artists will do that.

I wouldn't quit because I wasn't allowed to install a screensaver. I don't bother with screensavers, because they can interrupt my machine if I'm running something huge, and then I can lose fourteen hours of batch processing to one stupid bubbling fish. I have, however, downloaded and installed the following software on my machine:

OpenOffice - My machine does not have Word, because we only every bought one copy for the office. For the first six months of my job, I couldn't open inter-office memos. So I went and found myself a word-processing program.
A .zip translator - People keep sending me zip files full of JPGs, and I couldn't get them open with old StuffIt.
Widgets - I'm on a Mac at work, so I've downloaded widgets that check the weather, find me synonyms, show me fonts, and otherwise make my life easier at my desk.
iTunes/iPod utility - I had a cool little utility that would allow me to take my songs from my iPod to my work computer, so I could run them through iTunes. Vey handy stuff.
Other stuff - I've removed a bunch of applications just because they were basically useless. Like I talked my boss into giving me Excel, so I didn't need the freeware version any more.

My point is, while some of these apps were frivolous (no reason I can think of that I need to know what time it is in Tokyo), many of them made me more efficient. I was able to do this because my boss trusts me. Now, if the guy in sales up the hall tries to do this, he will fail, because he's technically moronic. A policy that says, 'the brilliant salesman and nice guy who is deadly to his hard drive may never install anything, ever,' would be a valid policy. The policy that says, 'nobody ever installs anything,' would actually hamper my working.

A general global policy like the one Hound put forth would send me packing. It's not about the screensaver. It's about trust. This policy sends a very clear message to me - it screams at the top of its lungs, 'I DON'T TRUST YOU.' And that clause about reporting to the security officer is just inviting backstabbing and paranoia, and that's just plain bad for business.

[0rbital]

I'm a senior level programmer and the development process requires a lot of creativity in the design long before I code. So my job is basically similar to Truth and InfinityMax in that the creativity needed for a design isn't happening. One day I may not accomplish a whole lot and go home early, the next day I may get into the groove and get a couple days worth of work done in a long day.

I recently had a micromanager when my old manager who my whole group got along with and hung out with after work (golf, BBQs, etc.) got a different job in the company. The new manager decided I didn't dress appropriately (which in a place like a bank I wouldn't be allowed to wear shorts and a tshirt), hassled me for having to take day off to take my wife to the doctor, threatened to fire me, etc. He did it to everyone else in the group too and killed the morale of the group. Productivity went down and none of the developers who wrote the original code (which a 1/3rd of it was mine) stayed with his group. I left to manage code contractors in another group and the other's just quit. The manager himself ended up quitting within 6 months and one of the new hires is now running the software department.

I can see in a bank or something like that having more stringent rules. Engineering shops just don't normally operate that way.

Xotli - You will definitely see some HCC releases before month's end.

[Codeman]

I find this an interesting thread and I’ve already posted my views earlier. For my own curiosity I thought I look up our company Internet policy and just share one companies approach with this forum. The policy is 4 pages long, I’m just picking a few items out to share:

* The use of the Internet system is intended for the conduct of business at the Company. Employees may use their Internet facilities for nonbusineess research and browsing outside of work hours, provide that all other usage polices are adhered to. Work hours are 6:00 am to 4:00 pm Monday through Friday. Business hours include rest breaks and lunch breaks.

* Video/audio streaming and downloading technologies represent significant data traffic which can cause local network congestion. Video/audio downloading should be avoided, or be scheduled for off-peak times.

[Xotli]

The rules that I posted were from a bank. I would suggest that if you struggle with this type of structure you will never work for a larger financial institution, law firm, goverment...
You are ever so right. :)

...nice jobs otherwise...
Enh. To each his own. Those types of jobs tend to discourage creative people, and creative people are typically the innovators in a company. This is why, e.g., IME banks are typically a decade behind in their software technology, and government agencies typically even further. So I don't miss the fact that I've essentially sealed off those professional avenues for myself.

It is a shame that sometime policies need to be written to fix the weakest link.
Yep. And it's a typical corporate strategy. But I've never believed it was the only strategy, or indeed the best one.

It's not about the screensaver. It's about trust. This policy sends a very clear message to me - it screams at the top of its lungs, 'I DON'T TRUST YOU.'
Yes! You said that much better than I did. :)

Xotli - You will definitely see some HCC releases before month's end.
Awesome! I guess I need to get my butt over to the SF site and post some stuff then, don't I? :wink:

[ultradoug]

begins to planning a raid on Hasbro and demand change in distrobution...

[Gambit]

begins to planning a raid on Hasbro and demand change in distrobution...

what is this i hear(well read, wahtever)? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

If you work in a bank, it's generally understood that people have a stick in their rectums.

I guess this may have been the kind of thing that got me going the most. It is a good thing that there is work available in a field that you like. I am currently the boss, but I have worked for other people and I always thought I was a good employee, no matter the task. If hired to tend bar and asked to scrub toilets...not a problem.

I am aware of a situation in another firm that might fit this. There is a long time employee that does not like the decision of the boss. He believes in his heart that he is right...really really right. His boss thinks otherwise. You could find groups on both sides of the issue. The problem is that he is going to loose his job, that he otherwise likes, due to insubordination. The issue at hand is NOT worth it. I think this same way about the internet. It is as if there is some kind of life source that is drawn from the thing. It is an addiction.

I have staff that truly have no legitmate use for a web browser, they need email for internal use only. Would I be an ass to remove the browser and shut off the outside mail?

The artsy guys that surf for inspiration...I consider that part of your job.

I understand and agree with all of the issues that have been pointed out about trust and a pleasant work enviroment. The flip side is that I would hope that you as employees would understand that sometimes you have to behave in a way that might not be just exactly the way that you think is best. You may be right, you probably are, sometimes you compromise.

[CupidsArt]

One other thing - if your employee has a desk job with a computer and is still supposed to sweep the floors, then I cannot describe the joy I feel at knowing that I do not work for you.

Yeah, I'm not as lucky as you.

My one boss doesn't know that I post but the other one does. I don't hide the fact that I post, but it doesn't rule my work day. This is a partially slow season here at work so things are caught up, but since I'm always rushed I don't really get the time to read alot of posts.

I try and stray away from things that require a great deal of thought because I just don't have that time to blow.

For as long as I have a cable connection here at work I'll post here. Of course it'll calm down a bit here when I finally get my net back up at home, :D

The artsy guys that surf for inspiration...I consider that part of your job.

Yeah the net has been a life saver in some cases. Like this morning when a customer wanted art of a penguin with cross-trainers on running from an igloo to a finish line, or the time I was asked to draw a rock n' roll rooster with a keg of beer or the time I was asked to draw Pebbles and Bam Bam in an intimate situation. The net comes in real handy for insperation most times.

[markwars]

Luther & Calvin Hound have your ever seen the television show The Office?

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

On the other hand....

I do have one ESSENTIAL use for the internet.

www.pandora.com

I have not seen The Office. I do like Dilbert.

[InfinityMax]

Hound, I may not want to work for you, but with that Pandora link, you're my new hero. I'm going to have to screw around with that a while, but that may just be the answer to my limited CD library. I put in Dropkick Murphys, and the next thing I know I'm exploring all new punk music I've never heard before. Totally bitchin!

[AgentX-127]

On the other hand....

I do have one ESSENTIAL use for the internet.

www.pandora.com


Wow. You just earned 100 cool points!

[InfinityMax]

I'll add another 100 to that, especially if you leave the net access to your employees so they can share this huge bucket of awesome.

[0rbital]

That Pandora is awesome. Never heard of it before. I usually stream Sirius at work.

[netherspirit]

I think truth posted that link somewhere awhile ago. Its a pretty cool site.

[Xotli]

If you work in a bank, it's generally understood that people have a stick in their rectums.

I guess this may have been the kind of thing that got me going the most. It is a good thing that there is work available in a field that you like.
It's really not so much the field as the attitude. I could work in a field that I didn't particularly care for as long as the management had a good attitude.

The issue at hand is NOT worth it. I think this same way about the internet.
No, of course it's not worth it. No single issue is worth it.

But, you know what, just forget everything I've said and go back to what Imax said. If you're working in an environment where you feel like people don't trust you, don't respect you, even look down on you, you're not going to be comfortable. You're going to feel jumpy and nervous and unappreciated every day. That is enough to quit over, or turn down a job over, or even find a new field over if it seems like all the management teams in your field are like that.

Would I be an ass to remove the browser and shut off the outside mail?
Of course you would. :) But that in itself isn't a reason not to do it. Sometimes, as the boss, you have to be an ass. We're just saying that in this particular case, you don't really need to, and in fact it's probably to your detriment to do so.

The flip side is that I would hope that you as employees would understand that sometimes you have to behave in a way that might not be just exactly the way that you think is best. You may be right, you probably are, sometimes you compromise.
Of course, we all compromise every day. And if I feel like I trust you, and you trust me, I'm far more likely to behave in a way that isn't exactly what I think is best, and do it without giving you any lip. If our relationship is more antagonistic, though, those compromises are going to be hell to get through. (Not to mention that my "illicit" Internet usage is rapidly going to switch from heroscapers.com to monster.com.)

On the other hand....

I do have one ESSENTIAL use for the internet.
Okay, I'll have to throw 100 cool points your way too ... this is some seriously awesome stuff.

The only thing that's a bit weird is that some of the music they have is remarkably obscure, but then sometimes I go looking for moderately well-known stuff and it doesn't come up. But I assume they're constantly adding to it, so I'll be patient.

Sort of.

I really hate being patient ...

[Codeman]

WOW! I found this tread interesting before…but I had to read the whole thing over from the start as tonight I just found out I know Luther & Calvin Hound and most of their staff. It put a whole new perspective on this re-reading this thread. It was even more interesting reading peoples perceptions of the Luther & Calvin as well as their employees ( and as far as I know they all seem to be a happy bunch, and L & C appears treat them all quite well ( by the way they have really clean floors) ).

Again I guess I’m old school, it doesn’t seem like Companies should need to have as many policies as they do. I would think on topics like we have been discussion the employees own common sense would prevail, and a policy would not be required. What is next… a policy on how late you can come into work? Or how much over your lunch hour you can take? Employees just need to use common sense at work and do the job you’re paid for. If this were done more maybe our Company Policy book would not fill three large binders.

Anyway what I was going to post before I discovered I knew L&C -
At work I used to actually use E-Bay as a tool to search old product for research. As you know you can find at least one of anything on e-bay. Well we must have had people abuse their Internet privileges and now E-Bay is blocked and I’ve lost one of my research tools.

One more note - Everyone can rest assured that L&C are not the Slave Drivers or Work Mongers that a few post have painted them out to be. I’m sure most of you would like to find a Company to work for that is as Employee Oriented as they are.

[InfinityMax]

That's encouraging to hear, Codeman. My misgivings about working for Hound are mostly due to a few comments, like wondering if he should remove the Internet, or if he should make a written policy. It's nice to know he cares about his people, but I think it is important to realize that people who spend eight hours in a row with their nose to the grindstone wind up with nosebleeds. A little goofing off here and there can keep the mind sharp and fresh.

And as far as internet, I had a boss one time who banned us from the 'net. She told MIS to pull our access and threatened to fire anyone who put it back. And as I told my co-workers at the time (and they completely agreed), she was insane if she thought listening to iTunes all day was the only way I knew how to goof off. I got SO much better at goofing off after she pulled our internet. By way of example, we worked it out so that we could tell when someone was coming - and then installed Doom 2 on all our machines. Where before we would look at a site now and then, now we spent hours every day playing video games. Where we used to listen to music while we worked, now we all just turned around in our chairs and conversated for hours at a stretch.

You can't stop your employees from goofing off. You can't make them work if they won't. You can, however, make them like you so much that they don't want to let you down.

I surf now at work, but I goof off less at this job than any other job I've ever had. And the ironic thing is, I have less supervision and more ability to goof off than ever before. That's not a coincidence - that's a cause and effect. I like my boss. I know he is counting on me and trusting me. I do not want to let him down - not because he doesn't trust me, but because he does.

[Xotli]

Employees just need to use common sense at work and do the job you’re paid for. If this were done more maybe our Company Policy book would not fill three large binders.
Exactly. And people who can't exercise common sense need to be fired, instead of instituting ever more complex policies to try to dictate their behavior. IMHO that only encourages them to look for more loopholes when they should be working.

Well we must have had people abuse their Internet privileges and now E-Bay is blocked and I’ve lost one of my research tools.
Perfect example. If they'd just fired the person doing the abusing, the rest of you wouldn't have gotten screwed.

You can't stop your employees from goofing off. You can't make them work if they won't. You can, however, make them like you so much that they don't want to let you down.

I like my boss. I know he is counting on me and trusting me. I do not want to let him down - not because he doesn't trust me, but because he does.
I am totally going to stop posting on this thread if you keep saying what I'm trying to say better than I can say it. :D

[truth]

I think truth posted that link somewhere awhile ago. Its a pretty cool site.

Yeah and I'm still waiting on my cool points. I've been running on "dosn't bug me that much" points for quit sometime.

[Hahnarama]

I think truth posted that link somewhere awhile ago. Its a pretty cool site.


Ya Truth is my HERO :P

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

And as far as internet, I had a boss one time who banned us from the 'net. She told MIS to pull our access and threatened to fire anyone who put it back. And as I told my co-workers at the time (and they completely agreed), she was insane if she thought listening to iTunes all day was the only way I knew how to goof off. I got SO much better at goofing off after she pulled our internet. By way of example, we worked it out so that we could tell when someone was coming - and then installed Doom 2 on all our machines. Where before we would look at a site now and then, now we spent hours every day playing video games. Where we used to listen to music while we worked, now we all just turned around in our chairs and conversated for hours at a stretch.


I don't like this. I think that a person has a moral resposibility to give an hours work for an hours pay (or salary). This is regardless of whether they feel like they are being treated fairly or not.

Certainly the boss should make every effort to be fair to the best of his ability. I did come on this forum to ASK what you folks thought was fair. Had I come to the conclusion that disconnectioin was fair (I have not) then this would have been my honest decision. Agree with it or not, it seems maybe a person would live with it. I would suggest that your actions above indicated that you were in fact not trustworthy, unless of course you get what you want. That does not fit the definition of trustworthy that I understand.

I have employees that have been with me for 20 years. I truly believe that I don't have ONE employee that would be as lenient with me as I have with them. One of my common conversations with my assitant is if I am being too fair...if you will.

[Xotli]

I don't like this. I think that a person has a moral resposibility to give an hours work for an hours pay (or salary). This is regardless of whether they feel like they are being treated fairly or not.
I agree with you, this is a sticky situation. But, let's face it: some of us are "turn the other cheek" type of guys, and some aren't. And some of us are in one situation but not another. Personally I'm with Imax on this one, but I think it would be a perfectly valid viewpoint to say that you would take whatever abuse was heaped on you and still work to your utmost. In fact, I'd go further than saying it's valid: I'd say you're a better man than I am Gunga Din, and I would bow to the Buddha nature in you.

I have employees that have been with me for 20 years. I truly believe that I don't have ONE employee that would be as lenient with me as I have with them.
Really? I think you might be surprised.

One of my common conversations with my assitant is if I am being too fair...if you will.
Oh, sure, you have to have that conversation, with yourself or others. Being the boss is always walking that tightrope, because in the end it's always a dictatorship and never a democracy. But I always used people like Linus Torvalds and Larry Wall as my models: people who are commonly referred to as "benevolent dictators." Which is to say, I give you as much as I can, I listen to you as much as I can, but let's always be clear that in the end I am the boss and you have to do what I say or find another job. IME the balancing act is always between making sure the stuff gets done that has to get done and making sure the employee never wants to choose to find that other job.

Unless the things in your workplace aren't getting done as they should be--and it sounds like that really isn't the case--then you probably aren't being too fair. :)


Yeah and I'm still waiting on my cool points. I've been running on "dosn't bug me that much" points for quit sometime.
Obviously your problem was that you didn't start a huge controversy and then announce the link. :lol:

But, seriously, truth--you gave us this place. That gets you enough cool points to last you for several years, at least. :wink:

[Codeman]

Go ahead and give Truth his Points or BisonBucks, or what ever it is. (plus interest).

" I am being too fair..." My take on this comment would be: A Company has a leninet policy or no policy on something and things have gone well under this system, and then one day an employee may push the envelope more than the Company and also co-works would like to see or do. Now this sisturation may cause a policy to be established or looked at ,or tightning the reins on a current policy. The proplem now is if affects everyone - This would be kind of like my E-bay post of yesterday. Our Companies policy got abused and now one of my research tool is blocked, because of it.

I don't think there is a problem with being too fair... it is an issue of a few employee who may take advantage of this an push the envelope until they force a policy to be put inplace and then it is those employee who are the first to complain about it.

[Codeman]

Hey, Jormi_Boced that is a catchy signature you are using on your post now :)

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2045806060822.gif

[markwars]

This topic died a month ago.

:pity:

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

I know...I just thought it was funny.

Sorry for the intrusion.

[markwars]

No worries. Just be aware that when you prod topics like this you're liable to get a swarm of replies. :P

[Jandars_Hope]

If i worked at a computer at work i would post! i'd post all day if i had more time and there was alot to post to!

[Finrod]

Hi! I'm at work! :wink:

Here's another horror story for you:

I was using a chat program to talk with some of my more tech-savvy friends, and was able to save my boss literally THOUSANDS of dollars in computer repairs, etc. This happened multiple times. The amount of money I saved him was astronomical. Seriously.

Then he suddenly decided people were spending too much time on "that internet thing" and announced a new policy against it. He screamed at me in front of the entire office staff for abusing our internet connection to talk to other people (the people that saved him thousands of dollars). He announced that he had studies that proved we were losing over 25% productivity to web-browsing (which was all lies; he had no studies; we have an office of five people). He announced that he had installed a new "sensor program" on our internet connection and it would monitor us. Anyone caught breaking the rule would be fired, no questions asked. This was also lies. He can't figure out how to open a file on a CD, let alone install a program to monitor web usage. No such program existed. Then I repeatedly walked into the office manager's office while he was in there, where she was playing games on the internet and listening to a radio station online.

That was several years ago. The "policy" has been quietly ignored ever since and the "sensor program" has never been mentioned again. It was all just one of his bad mood days.

I'm with Imax on pretty much everything else. I'm also in creative work.

Posted above my desk is a quote from a calendar that I cut out and stuck where it could be easily seen: "If you want creative workers, give them enough time to play." - John Cleese

[ninthdoc]

Great post, Finrod! BTW, when I have managers that go off like that, I typically refer to it as "managerial mensturation".

I'm sorry if that offends someone, but it's true.

[Xotli]

Posted above my desk is a quote from a calendar that I cut out and stuck where it could be easily seen: "If you want creative workers, give them enough time to play." - John Cleese
Nice quote. Snipped for my fortune file.

[CornPuff]

Wow, I cant believe I missed this thread last month, when it was hoppin..

You ever read stories of Google or Microsoft? They go into depth about beanbag furniture and gym memberships and breakrooms stocked with goodies. In fact, MS frequently has to put up with employee pranks such as the classic office filled with bouncy balls, or male strippers showing up in lobbies as a precursor to girls night out...

My point is that these are 2 successful companies with a culture that thrives on trust and flexibility. The negative argument to be made is that they keep people at work for more hours this way, leading to 60-80 hours of work in a week, not including time spent filling offices with bouncy balls.

Anyway, you are a step ahead of most of the managers I've had by exhibiting a desire to change.

Also, I need the internet for just about everything I do as a software developer. I also need to be able to install tools on a whim. Any company that doesn't let their software staff have those 2 priviledges is ineffectual and inefficient, guaranteed.

I guess it depends on who you are managing, but I've always thought work should be on a deadline basis, and not on an 8 hours a day basis.

There were several great posts earlier this thread, especially the posts by Imax and Xotli.

[Revdyer]

In my own way, I work on a deadline -- Sundays. I need a sermon each week, which is about the equivalent of a research paper taking, generally, about twenty hours to create. Unfortuntely (or, maybe, very fortunately) those twenty creative hours cannot be scheduled. The scholastic homework, reading and studying the Greek or Hebrew originals, can be scheduled, although even then it is better when the inspiration moves. But the actual writing, although somewhat disciplined, cannot be forced. Therefore I rejoice that the tasks of caring for a congregation are varied and usually flexible. At eleven o'clock on Sunday, though, I have to deliver, at least fifty Sundays a year, for the past thirty-two years. I don't reuse old sermons ("yesterday's manna stinks") or other people's (plagarism is the stealing and murdering of another person's thoughts and words) sermons. I love what I do, but it is never routine. Maybe that's part of what I love about it.

[ninthdoc]

rev, In all seriousness, I loved research and writing so much in school that I considered your line of work for a while. Then I realized that I cuss too much and had to find another line of work. This is a true story.

[Revdyer]

I believe it, ninthdoc. I really am blessed that I get paid to read, and to read just about anything, because it all will show up in a sermon or a class (I teach four classes a week -- two Bible studies, one topical issues, and one historical perspectives.). So I read math, physics, Terry Prachett, the net, lots of history, the newspaper, and lots of other stuff. I enjoyed being an English professor. I enjoyed being a Professor of Religion and Philosophy. But most of all I enjoy being the pastor of a small (130 active members) congregation.

[brokeasajoke]

:hijacked:

In my own way, I work on a deadline -- Sundays. I need a sermon each week, which is about the equivalent of a research paper taking, generally, about twenty hours to create. Unfortuntely (or, maybe, very fortunately) those twenty creative hours cannot be scheduled. The scholastic homework, reading and studying the Greek or Hebrew originals, can be scheduled, although even then it is better when the inspiration moves. But the actual writing, although somewhat disciplined, cannot be forced. Therefore I rejoice that the tasks of caring for a congregation are varied and usually flexible. At eleven o'clock on Sunday, though, I have to deliver, at least fifty Sundays a year, for the past thirty-two years. I don't reuse old sermons ("yesterday's manna stinks") or other people's (plagarism is the stealing and murdering of another person's thoughts and words) sermons. I love what I do, but it is never routine. Maybe that's part of what I love about it.

Yep, I can't stand to preach the same sermon twice, either. I'll work on a sermon, finish it, & then think "This is the greatest sermon ever!" Then I preach it & the next day think "Bleh!" It is weird how that works. I can only preach what I am excited about.

80-90% of my sermon preparation time is spent drawing blanks. The actual sermon usually doesn't take that long once it gets rolling.

Heh, a funny joke on the preacher's plagiarism thing. I forget who it was that said it, but it went something like this:

"The first time I use another preacher's story/illustration/whatever, I say 'So-and-so once said...' The second time I use it, I say 'Someone once said...' The third time I use it, it becomes 'I've always said...'"

[Revdyer]

In my twenties and thirties I quoted the authorities and experts.
In my forties I quoted my favorites no matter who they were.
Now I find I'm mostly quoting myself. <grin>

[Codeman]

Wow... I'm still blow away by the number of people who belive it is ok to surf the web on non-work releated issues. Not only that but you/they do it on company time, with company equipment, using up company resources. I think I have a creative mind, but I can't come up with any kind of excuse that this should or would be acceptable or justified. Even if I would somehow believe this practice would be acceptable... how does anyone have time during the workday to do this? The company I work for has over 3,000 employees and I can safely say no one has the time to surf the internet for non-bussiness reasons nor are we allowed to ( we are running mean and lean ). If you and you co-works can do this I will assume their is some fat to cut from your company - and it may be you! Ok now that I've asked for it.... Bash me and tell me why I wrong.

Isn't their any one out there that believes this or am I the lone ranger out here?

[RichardD]

Rev's job sounds so much more interesting than mine. I'd love to have 20 hours to come up with a sermon/speech - most of mine have to be delivered either ex tempore or with at most an hour's prep. I'd offer to swap jobs with him, but fear I'm missing one fundamental qualification.

Me, I'm self-employed. So I can loaf as much as I want to. But if I want the mortgage paid, I have to make up my loafing time with a late session at the office :(

Unfortunately, I'm not too good with deadlines either - but I have discovered that they make a lovely "whooshing" noise as the go past.

[brokeasajoke]

Wow... I'm still blow away by the number of people who belive it is ok to surf the web on non-work releated issues. Not only that but you/they do it on company time, with company equipment, using up company resources. I think I have a creative mind, but I can't come up with any kind of excuse that this should or would be acceptable or justified. Even if I would somehow believe this practice would be acceptable... how does anyone have time during the workday to do this? The company I work for has over 3,000 employees and I can safely say no one has the time to surf the internet for non-bussiness reasons nor are we allowed to ( we are running mean and lean ). If you and you co-works can do this I will assume their is some fat to cut from your company - and it may be you! Ok now that I've asked for it.... Bash me and tell me why I wrong.

Isn't their any one out there that believes this or am I the lone ranger out here?

I agree with you, at least sort of. I think it really depends upon the type of job you have. For the general answer, though, I'd say it isn't OK to surf or post on the clock.

I've only had 2 jobs where this has been a factor.

Job #1 was at a call center. I provided tech-support for an ISP. We were hooked up to the phones, so we couldn't leave our cubicles except for predetermined breaks & bathroom breaks. I would generally have to type up tickets during my calls, & would sometimes have to look stuff up in order to solve a problem. However, we were given an explicit OK to surf the Internet during down time, so long as it didn't affect our calls.

So yeah, I surfed the Internet when it was slow (it was almost always very busy). I'd also surf during a call if it was a routine problem where I could guide the caller in Swahili if necessary. :wink: But I never bothered to post anything.

Job #2 was in the accounting department for a mortgage company. I had access to the Internet on my computer, but I never used it to surf or post on the company's time. I did sometimes surf a litte but never post during my lunch break, but not during my work hours.

The company policy was pretty relaxed. Many of my co-workers would use the Internet for personal business here & there throughout the day. The company didn't have a problem with it because they saw it as a sort of perk - as long as it didn't become a problem.

Personally, I would never surf or post unless it was specifically declared to be OK by the employer. Even then, I wouldn't let it affect my productivity. This is an issue that I think varies depending upon the nature of the job.

[CornPuff]

alright codeman, you asked for it!

actually, I dont have much of a cohesive argument, but I'll say a few words.

#1. I am more than happy to stay late if I feel I've goofed off. I feel a well managed project will be measured in hours worked instead of 9-5 business hours. However, If the project is mismanaged and not given enough time, I wont work more hours than I'm obligated to.

I guess I view work as more of a fluid thing. Flex Time, as they call it. As long as I put in my 40 a week (or 37.5 as some companies say) I don't care what particular hours those were.

#2. Like some posts before, I feel that a little goofing off actually increases productivity. There is a fine line here, and a little goes a long way. A happy worker is a more efficient worker. This reason may be most compelling. If science tells us that 30 min of goofing off increases total productivity, who are we to fight science?
:twisted:

I'll do some research, and post back if i find anything

[Codeman]

CornPuff thanks for taking it easy on me... I understand your point and I agree somewhat in part. Hey I see you have already changed your location - good luck in Washingtion ... Make sure you let us all know what your new companies policy is on Internet usage is :wink:

[Revdyer]

Codeman, I usually work 60-80 hours a week and am on call 24/7, with 32 years of professional experience, and I'm the "boss." So I get to set the rules as long as I meet the needs of my congregation. I average ten or fifteen non-task related minutes a day on the web. I think that's okay. (Oh, and I have to provide my own computer, although the church provides the phone for the dial-up, which is why I don't tie up the line but briefly.)

[CornPuff]

Seems to me the congregation should get together and buy you a DSL line :twisted: Thats a pretty dedicated work week, Rev. That said, I can see why you do it :)

I did find one study so far.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_2000_July/ai_64335682

its a bit twisted, as they measure productivity by asking the slacker workers. I'll try to find something a little more objective.

[RichardD]

Codeman, I usually work 60-80 hours a week and am on call 24/7, with 32 years of professional experience, and I'm the "boss."

And there was me thinking that the "guy upstairs" was the boss :D

[Revdyer]

Codeman, I usually work 60-80 hours a week and am on call 24/7, with 32 years of professional experience, and I'm the "boss."

And there was me thinking that the "guy upstairs" was the boss :D
You're absolutely right, RichardD; hence the quotation marks. Some would say the members of the church are my boss, and that wouldn't be far wrong, either. But, it's a calling.

[Finrod]

Wow... I'm still blow away by the number of people who belive it is ok to surf the web on non-work releated issues. Not only that but you/they do it on company time, with company equipment, using up company resources. I think I have a creative mind, but I can't come up with any kind of excuse that this should or would be acceptable or justified. Even if I would somehow believe this practice would be acceptable... how does anyone have time during the workday to do this? The company I work for has over 3,000 employees and I can safely say no one has the time to surf the internet for non-bussiness reasons nor are we allowed to ( we are running mean and lean ). If you and you co-works can do this I will assume their is some fat to cut from your company - and it may be you! Ok now that I've asked for it.... Bash me and tell me why I wrong.

Okay. :)

I'm a graphic designer. We work on a weekly deadline basis. My workload is totally dependant on the salespeople getting the ad information to me. When they don't, or immediately after a deadline has passed, I'm left with literally NOTHING to do. So quite often I jumpstart my creativity by browsing here and elsewhere.

I've worked here for eleven years. There are only five people in my office. If I were to quit... or even leave for a WEEK... it would cost my boss literally thousands of dollars in missed deadlines and publishing costs. I'm absolutely essential to the business.

As for you preacher boys, I'll admit to being jealous of you quite often. :) That being said, I need to get off of here now and work on my youth lesson for tomorrow night, comparing Christ and Aragorn...

[Codeman]

Finrod just said:
“I've worked here for eleven years. There are only five people in my office. If I were to quit... or even leave for a WEEK... it would cost my boss literally thousands of dollars in missed deadlines and publishing costs. I'm absolutely essential to the business.”

Wow this could almost be another topic – a side from posting at work, now I read people think they are irreplaceable (quote: “I'm absolutely essential to the business.” )

I do understand you job function may be a little different than most, but I don’t agree with your other reasoning … Everyone is replaceable… and quite often are. I’ve seen allot of good people let go over the years.

I will agree that your position or job is essential to the business… but I hope not too many people are confused and believe they are irreplaceable at their work.

I know where I work I there is not anybody that has the expertise or knowledge I have on a number of subjects, but I know if I wasn’t there they would find a way to fill gaps left and the company wouldn’t come crashing to its knees.

If what you say is true... I hope your boss has a plan B if something should happen to you.

[Xotli]

Not only that but you/they do it on company time, with company equipment, using up company resources.
Well, I could point out several things in response to this:

1) Being a salaried employee, I have to work as much as there is work to do. Therefore the idea that there is "company time" is meaningless.

2) Sure, surfing the 'net is using company equipment ... so what? It doesn't put more "wear and tear" on the computers, or the connection. Even Ted Stevens knows that: the Internet is not a dump truck, you know. :wink:

3) What company resources am I using? The computers are on all the time, so I'm not using any more electricity. Our bandwidth is a monthly charge, so I'm not using any more of that either. This isn't the old days where you paid for CPU time ... I can't think of a single way in which the company spends one penny more when I surf the 'net than when I don't.

But, you know what? all that is irrelevant. Because it all comes down to this:

Personally, I would never surf or post unless it was specifically declared to be OK by the employer.
All of our comments on this thread have been directed at the employer. In fact, I specifically said, in more than one post, that the employer has every right to say "no employee may touch a computer without filling out a business case in triplicate and filing it three days in advance" (to exaggerate a bit to make the point). The employer can do such things and no one can say they'd be wrong to do it. But that doesn't make it a good idea. It's a better idea to encourage your employees to want to be at work. That was the point of most of us who contributed to the thread, I believe.

If you and you co-works can do this I will assume their is some fat to cut from your company - and it may be you!
You certainly may assume so. Of course, like ever so many who assume, you would be wrong, but it's a free country.

You could try assuming that I spend more hours at work than are strictly necessary to complete the duties of my job, and I fill those extra hours however I damn well please. That'd get you closer.

[Finrod]

If what you say is true... I hope your boss has a plan B if something should happen to you.

I brought that up today, actually... wondering out loud what would happen if I were in a car wreck or something... the office manager told me to shut up and not bring it up... there is no plan B, it turns out...

[countblah]

Codeman, I usually work 60-80 hours a week and am on call 24/7, with 32 years of professional experience, and I'm the "boss."

And there was me thinking that the "guy upstairs" was the boss :D
You're absolutely right, RichardD; hence the quotation marks. Some would say the members of the church are my boss, and that wouldn't be far wrong, either. But, it's a calling.

We pretty much have the best job on the planet, don't we Rev?

[Revdyer]

Well, I enjoyed being a college professor, but I like being a pastor even more. And you?

[countblah]

On my year of internship right now, so I'll be a pastor next year. I haven't been a professor, but this certainly whomps the business out of any other job I've had thus far. A lot better than replacing windshields.

[Rajaat the Warbringer]

I post from work all the time (more often than I do from home). When we first got internet here, my boss seemed pretty dissapointed that I wasn't using it to check out sites and stuff.

He's a really cool guy.

[Revdyer]

Yes, countblah. I worked as a carpenter, framing houses, to get through college. (Also at the Post Office for a while and in other government offices.) While I was pounding nails I kept saying, "I'm doing this so I don't have to do this forever."

(and no comments about carpenters who become preachers!)

[countblah]

Yes, countblah. I worked as a carpenter, framing houses, to get through college. (Also at the Post Office for a while and in other government offices.) While I was pounding nails I kept saying, "I'm doing this so I don't have to do this forever."

(and no comments about carpenters who become preachers!)

I certainly can't think of any!

[InfinityMax]

I'm on my fifth straight hour of surfing porn at work. I'm hoping to go the full 7.5 and leave early (I was also a fifteen minutes late, so my work day is only 7.5 hours).

Not really. I actually finished building a 300 page catalog yesterday, so I'm catching up on 'scapers that I missed for the last few days. I've got a little down time before we get busy again.

[bad_calvin]

I post from work probably 90% of the time.

This sure says a lot for the american work force. :)

[happyjosiah]

I post from work probably 90% of the time.

This sure says a lot for the american work force. :)

Supposedly we are lazy, but at least we don't take 40 vactation days a year! *cough*Europe*cough* :D

[Sapper]

I am posting from work right now!!

[Ch1can0]

*cough* 40 days *cough* who told you that?!? Well, at least no 40 days for me here in europe.. :wink:

[monkeyfish]

I post from school!!!!!! :D

[Kepler]

*cough* 40 days *cough* who told you that?!? Well, at least no 40 days for me here in europe.. :wink:

What is the standard where you are?

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

#1. I am more than happy to stay late if I feel I've goofed off. I feel a well managed project will be measured in hours worked instead of 9-5 business hours. However, If the project is mismanaged and not given enough time, I wont work more hours than I'm obligated to.

I have folks that come early and stay late. I often wonder why they do that instead of using the time between 9 and 5 a bit more effeciently. I guess that way they can say they stayed late.

[Ch1can0]

i think the standard here is 30 days, perhaps a bit less (more if you are are a teacher... ;-) ). And where you are?

[happyjosiah]

Okay, so I exaggerated a little bit. Round here we get Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day (4th), and if we are lucky, MLK's B-Day, Presidents Day, and Columbus Day. Obviously some places also offer paid vaction (usually a week or two). Just imagine how much better the economy could be if the entire workforce did 10 more days of work though....

[Hahma]

I worked for painting companies for fourteen years before just starting my own recently. In my business, if you are posting from work, there is definitely a problem.

In our business, if you have done everything that is required to complete the particular job, then you go home. Period. We can't finish painting a bedroom or whatever by 1pm and say "I got my work done, now I can get paid for doing something else for the remainder of my work day"

Different jobs have different circumstances. My wife works at an advertising company in Chicago. Some days are really super busy and some days are dreadfully slow. She has to be regardless, so she can surf the net or what have you. She is definitely not expected to sweep/vaccuum the floors. If she can help someone else that is swamped, she would naturally do that before doing personal stuff.

Now that I have just started a business, I am my sole employee for now. I have slower times and catch up in my home office working on proposals or doing other office type work (which I don't really like). So I can take a break and post here. Now that I'm a one man show until I can hire some help, I find that I am isolated mostly at work, when not dealing with the customer, so I like to chat on here to make up for the comeraderie sp? that I was accustom to when working for someone else.

Being used to a job where you work until either it's the end of the work day or until you finish early and leave, I'm not used to having slack time or slow time at work. With us, if you are done, you go to another job or go home, we don't get paid for anything other than the work that we are employed to do. Saying that, I have found that I really don't like doing office type work and that after awhile, I can see needing a break from paperwork or whatever is done on the computer.

So I can see both sides of the situation and to me, it entirely depends on the particular job/company. Smaller companies may require that you do other things when you get caught up on your work just because they are small and can't justify hiring someone else to do certain miscellaneous things. While a larger company may be more slack as long as you get your work done and keep everyone happy that needs to be, then do as you will when you are caught up.

All I know, is that when I do hire painters, they will be fired if they are posting on a computer while they are supposed to be painting. But that should go without saying.

[Finrod]

Days off? I get Independence Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's. Everything else is extremely doubtful.

I've worked here for eleven years, so I'm "officially" up to three weeks vacation time. But I can't take that vacation time except in tiny bits and pieces, one day at a time, usually. If I'm exceedingly lucky, I can take off a Friday and a Monday and get a four-day weekend.

My family just went on vacation without me. I'm stuck here.

[Hahma]

*cough* 40 days *cough* who told you that?!? Well, at least no 40 days for me here in europe.. :wink:

What is the standard where you are?

Zero paid time off for me. No work, no pay. So next time you think construction workers are overpaid, keep in mind that they do not get paid for any time they aren't working. There may be some exceptions, but the norm is that you only get paid for the time you are working and sorry about your luck otherwise.

My wife on the other hand, gets 28 paid vacation days, plus paid holidays. Also, her office always has four day weekends for Labor Day, Memorial Day, 4th of July and usually closes between Christmas and New Year. She gets paid for those days too.

[InfinityMax]

I'm going full-time freelance in two weeks. I can't wait. But in the mean time, I do post from work when there's nothing better to do, or just when I feel like it. I can lay out a catalog faster than anyone I know, even if I drop in here a couple times a day to keep up with current events. Right now I'm waiting for changes to come back, and in down time, I'm reading web comics and posting here. Once the work comes back in, I'm off to the races.

But I can't wait for two weeks to be up. I'm going to be one screwing-around SOB, even as I'm as busy as I'll ever be.

[Finrod]

Congrats, IMax. That's my current dream. I'm still trying to find a way to make it happen.

[skyknight]

I'm going full-time freelance in two weeks. I can't wait. But in the mean time, I do post from work when there's nothing better to do, or just when I feel like it. I can lay out a catalog faster than anyone I know, even if I drop in here a couple times a day to keep up with current events. Right now I'm waiting for changes to come back, and in down time, I'm reading web comics and posting here. Once the work comes back in, I'm off to the races.

But I can't wait for two weeks to be up. I'm going to be one screwing-around SOB, even as I'm as busy as I'll ever be.

Big thumbs up Imax, congrats

[Codeman]

Hey, I just wanted to post in the middle of the day instead of at night like I usally do ... just to see what it feels like..... not much different.

Don't everyone get excited... I didn't turn into a rebel.....Sorry I am at home over my lunch using my own computer.

[Revdyer]

I get one month vacation (which amount I have never taken, in over thirty years) and two weeks study leave, which can accure to six weeks (and I have that in hand) per year. My wife, on the other hand, working as a classroom nursing assistant for handicapped kids, gets no paid vacation of any sort, not even national holidays. She is at least as skilled as I am (she's more) but systems differ; that's not fair, but it is reality.

Fortunately, her unpaid summer is economically survivable for us, and that's when I can usually take some time for us to relax (a benefit, not a detriment to our jobs).

I am taking a Sunday (prime work day) off to do to the Dallas Do in October, though! Nothing short of something is going to stop that.

Oh...and it is good to see you skyknight!

[Luther &amp; Calvin Hound]

http://img.clubphoto.com/xyzzy/4672725/1/512/null/fun.jpg

[InfinityMax]

Luther, your image doesn't load. I thought you just wrote an empty post. Hopefully from work.

[CupidsArt]

Hey, I just wanted to post in the middle of the day instead of at night like I usally do ... just to see what it feels like..... not much different.

Don't everyone get excited... I didn't turn into a rebel.....Sorry I am at home over my lunch using my own computer.


YOU SINNER! Why can't you waiste company time like the rest of us :D ?

Honestly I don't really spend too much time on here, mostly during my lunch hour, :)

[bunjee]

http://img.clubphoto.com/xyzzy/4672725/1/512/null/fun.jpgOh man, that is fabulous!

[InfinityMax]

Now I see it, and it is hilarious. And perfect.

[Codeman]

Hey, Luther & Calvin Hound... you should ask your staff were they picked up the necklace. Then you could get a matching one for Wesley so he can make the same tnkle, tinkle, tinkle when he makes his rounds. I assume Wesley managment style is more the just walking around shop / office :wink:

[wisinger]

I started reading about the first 4 or 5 pages of this and skipped to the end. I work for a large corp. environment, which has what I take to be a relaxed computer use policy. Something along the lines of: casual use of personal email and web browsing is acceptable as long as it doesn't interfere with your daily operations. The content of the browsing must not be considered offensive to others, will be monitored, and can be cause for dismissal. They attempt to block a mulitude of sites as well. They monitor chat, they monitor web pages hit, they monitor email activity.

With all of that said, it just depends, at the end of the day, it depends on the personality of the boss, and the value the employee brings to the company. I like to think that I bring value to the team I work for, and the company as a whole, and occasionally will "get lost in a thread" and occasionally not hit the site during business hours, because i am banging on the key board for some productive reason.

If you want a policy that allows your discrection, then try a generic usage guideline that lets your employees know that they can / will be monitored, and have conversations (yes, I believe that is the managers/owners responsibility to outline the expectations) with employees that you have a concern about / or whom you believe have a concern about you walking up and observing their undirected activity.

[Codeman]

How IRONIC :!: :!: :!:

Any of you that followed this thread earlier this year knows my views and how :shock: surprised and disappointed I was that it seems almost all Heroscapers post at work and do not think there is any thing wrong with this. To my surprise I found my views were definitely in the minority on this issue.

Anyway…. NOW THE REST OF THE STORY….

I still haven’t posted at work … however while I was trying to explain to a co-worker what dice tower was..… it hit me! I know were some pictures of dice towers are (Heroscapers.com). So I could show them ( one picture is worth a thousand words ) . I went right to the site and was on Heroscapers.com for no more than 30 seconds….. My phone rings! It is the Computer Center and I am getting quizzed about heroscpaers what is it and what are the pictures I have up on my screen. BUSTED :cry: ! I can’t believe me of all people, and it took less than a minute online.

[InfinityMax]

You know, you could have gone to www.vixentorgames.com - that's all we have there, is dice towers.

And that's kind of funny. I hate workplace IP Nazis, but it is painfully ironic to get busted for that.

And while we're updating - now that I don't have a job any more, except to work at home, I post from work all the time. Even more than I used to.

[Codeman]

Yes I don't mind the internet police.... but I thought it was Ironic that I was the one that got caught! Again I was not posting... I just had the site up long enough to show someone a picture of some dice towers. InfinityMax thanks for your tip however I am afraid with games in the title of your site that might have been flaged too. I still can't belive it.

[CupidsArt]

Yes I don't mind the internet police.... but I thought it was Ironic that I was the one that got caught! Again I was not posting... I just had the site up long enough to show someone a picture of some dice towers. InfinityMax thanks for your tip however I am afraid with games in the title of your site that might have been flaged too. I still can't belive it.

Sorry to hear that Code, that's the way it always is though. I'm sure your an awesome worker though and something like this shouldn't effect you too much, ;)


What happened to me at work today.

Every year our company x-mas party has a theme, this years was NASPAR (National Association of Screenprinting Rushes). Also evey year we make fun of employees, from things they did at work, to things that we heard about from others. One person we got this year was my boss (turned him into Minime), now I told you that story to tell you this one.

I was running films earlier this evening so I decided to check out the Cinci battle-report thread. As I'm scrolling down the page my boss comes around the corner rolling in laughter. When I turned around he said (and I quote) "You two look like a gay couple".......

For the rest of the day everytime he pased my desk he giggled a little. Now I can handle the laughing, but it's the x-mas party I'm worried about, what is going to happen to me next year, :sigh: :D