Strategic Maneuvers Army Specific: Batter Up!

[Tai-Pan]

Batter Up!
By Tai-Pan

Units required: Pitcher (any figure that can move another figure. At the moment, Jotun, Wyvern, Warforged Soldiers, Drow Chainfighter), Batter (any figure with a passive ability that can wound figures moving into engagement, at the moment, Nakita Agents, Arkmer, Greater Ice Elemental)

Move a pitcher and batter towards the enemy, making sure that when the pitcher reaches them, the batter is withing throwing/carrying/switching distance. Once the pitcher reaches them use their special ability to pitch a small or medium enemy figure adjacent to one (or more) of your batters, then use Engagement Strike or Ice Spikes to hit the enemy figure. This is especially effective against high cost squad figures, as it only takes one hit to kill them, or if you have multiple batters, heroes.

Suggested Armies
Jotun 225
Nakita Agents 120
Arkmer 50
Warriors of Ashra x2 100
Total 495

Jotun 225
Arkmer 50
Kyntela Gwyn 20
Nakita 120
Jorhdawn 100
Emirroon 80
Total 595

[Mooseman]

:shock: Five possible wounds. Very Nice, but why waste it on the squaddies? a four life hero seems a prime target.

[netherspirit]

I don't think that works. Its the whole move vs. place argument we've had many times, I don't recall the verdict.

[Tai-Pan]

I found a thread before I posted this one on that issue, Nether. It seemed that the wording on the lava was also if a figure moves into it, then it rolls for damage. I've never seen anyone play that if Jotun throws a figure into lava that the figure is safe because it didn't move there. Since the wording is similar, we assumed that the effect would be as well, making this a legal and viable strategy.

[that guy]

I don't know about this either. It's not exactly the same as lava because if you move the Nakitas adjacent to a fig they don't get the strike. So it's not a 100% deal like the lava.
On the other hand the Nakitas didn't move adjacent to the fig so maybe they should get it. I'd hate to use this trick against someone who doesn't think its legal and have to argue. I just don't know.

[Boozehammer]

I think the Nakita ability does work. And here's why.

Nakita agents ability says "becomes engaged". That happens when Jotun throws the figure adjacent to Nakita. That figure is then adjacent; adjacency doesn't take into account the manner in which you've moved adjacent.

[that guy]

The card never says "becomes engaged" at all. It says "moves adjacent" and "as they move into engagement".

Now what if Jotun throws somebody already adjacent to a Nakita into a spot still adjacent to that Nakita?

[netherspirit]

I think the Nakita ability does work. And here's why.

Nakita agents ability says "becomes engaged".

Of course you're going to think it works when you add words to the card that aren't there. :P

[Nwojedi]

in the "start wherever you felt like it" tourney at gen con. If you placed your figures next to the nakita, you got the free kick to the face. I don't see how this wouldn't apply here as well. Good luck keeping the nakita alive that long, if they are 6 spots away from the enemy, and then joton has to take 2 turns to even get up that far.

[netherspirit]

in the "start wherever you felt like it" tourney at gen con. If you placed your figures next to the nakita, you got the free kick to the face.

That was GB's rule (or whoever was running that tourney) to handle a new tourney format, it wasn't official. Not the best of examples...

[Taeblewalker]

I'd say it does not work. The Nakitas' card says "Figures may only be targeted as the move into engagement with a Nakita Agent."

Jotun's card says "you may throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of Jotun."

I don't think placement and movment are the same.

Perhaps the rule of thumb is: If it costs movement points OR is done in lieu of spending movement points, it is movement. Otherwise, it isn't.

This definition includes Glacial Traverse and Swamp Water Tunnel as movement.

[Tai-Pan]

Where's Necroblade? He was in on the thread that discussed whether this was possible or not. I think the reason that they decided it was possible was because they said the hot lava is worded the same way (I'm not sure where my lava rulebook is to check it.) And everyone plays that Jotun can throw people into lava and they die, so this should work too.

[that guy]

Lava is always hot 100%.
Engagement strike is not 100%.
That's the difference. That's where the problem is for me.

[Tai-Pan]

OK. Found the lava rule book.

Lava
"When a figure moves onto a molten lava space, you must roll for molten lava damage"

Nakita Agents
"If an opponent's small or medium figure moves adjacent to a Nakita Agent..."

So, one of two things has to happen. Since both say when a figure moves, both of the rulings are the same. So, either Jotun throws figures into lava and they live, and the ruling is that the Nakita can't use engagement strike on thrown figures, OR Jotun can throw figures in lava and they die HOT LAVA DEATH, and he can throw them at the Nakita for this maneuver to work. I'm going to say the second works for me.

[that guy]

I don't know how else to say hot lava death and engagement strike are not exactly the same, but they're not. Lava has no way to negate it's effect the strike does so I don't believe that's a viable point

Don't get me wrong I would love for this to work. I'm just not fully convinced. I'm not really saying I believe it's not possible either I just think it's highly debatable.

[Su_Nan]

If you care so much about the ruling just ask WOTC.

[Ryback]

Obviously this is one of those situations the guys who write the rules didn't think about, nobody's perfect. :D
Seems like common sense to me though, engagement should hit, as per the name of the ability(regardless of if they are thrown or moving, they are still entering engagement), as well as the commonalities in wording with the lava tiles.

Think about this, if theracus carries a enemy unit and drops them next to nakitas, does engagement hit? I'd say for sure, even though the unit adjacent hasn't used it's own movement.

[Bloody the Marro Stinger]

Theracus can only carry friendly units. :P

[that guy]

He meant enemy to the Nakitas.

I am going to try this but I have a feeling I will be shot down by one of the people I play with.

[Bloody the Marro Stinger]

Um...
His example was "Theracus carries an enemy over to the Nakitas." He can't do that, as Theracus can only carry friendly units.

[that guy]

I took it as an enemy to the Nakitas being carried by it's own team, but after re-reading it maybe your're right.

[Taeblewalker]

All of which makes me wonder - will their be a giant eagle figure with a "Snatch and Carry" ability? It would be like Jotun's throw combined with Theracus's Carry. You could pick up a figure and drop it next to a Nakita Agent, or into lava, or wherever.

Sorry if this seems off topic, but it just flowed from the quibbling over the Theracus example.

[that guy]

Quibbling? I love rule clarifications, I still learn an occasional rule or something I may have missed on a card.

[johnny139]

Quibbling? I love rule clarifications, I still learn an occasional rule or something I may have missed on a card.

that guy? I loved you on Futurama!

[redamm]

If you care so much about the ruling just ask WOTC.

I did and we should have a answer within 24-48 hours. Of course it will be a debateable answer :P

[Arubian Archer]

I think movment refers to leaving the point they were because when thrown they have moved from point A to point B.

[clancampbell]

This is kind of an old thread, buts its resurfaced. Have we ever gotten a ruling? I don't know. I would say this, if my Joton throws an enemy adjacent to one of my figures, are they then engaged? If you answer yes, then the engagement strike would work. If no, it doesn't. I would say yes, therfore it works. Not trying to be offensive, but for anyone to say that doesn't work because they did not move their figure adjacent, they were put there, sounds like nit picking and rules lawering, neither of which can I stomach. Again, sorry, not trying to get personal.

[pinche_guey]

I don't know how else to say hot lava death and engagement strike are not exactly the same, but they're not. Lava has no way to negate it's effect the strike does so I don't believe that's a viable point

Don't get me wrong I would love for this to work. I'm just not fully convinced. I'm not really saying I believe it's not possible either I just think it's highly debatable.

If there is no way to say it, then they are not different. And yes, lava can be "negated" by rolling a 20, or being lava resistant. This is a game, consistency matters, and the way we think things should be has nothing to do with it. If they are worded the same, they should be treated the same. Ruling have been based on two things, consistency and reasonable simplicity.

I agree with clancampbell and others in this example.

[Tai-Pan]

:bump:

Reason: recently modified.

[dok]

Chainfighters and Ice Elementals give this tactic a lot more permutations.

[Tai-Pan]

Chainfighter and Ice Elemental added. I'll wait until the figures come out to put in some suggested armies.

[Johnnylama]

Wouldn't the Wyvern qualify as a pitcher also since it can move enemy figures?

[Flame Gryphon]

Wouldn't the Wyvern qualify as a pitcher also since it can move enemy figures?

I think a pitcher is someone who can 'throw' or otherwise place a unit in a different spot then they started in without having to move the pitcher. So, no, the Wyvern wouldn't count.

[TurtleKing99]

Wouldn't the Wyvern qualify as a pitcher also since it can move enemy figures?

I think a pitcher is someone who can 'throw' or otherwise place a unit in a different spot then they started in without having to move the pitcher. So, no, the Wyvern wouldn't count.

I don't see why moving the pitcher makes any difference, It's still the same basic strategy.

[Tai-Pan]

Yeah, any figure that can move another figure into engagement with any engagement strike/ice spiker counts. That said, this needs updated.

[TurtleKing99]

Yeah, any figure that can move another figure into engagement with any engagement strike/ice spiker counts. That said, this needs updated.
O yeah, warforged too. :thumbsup: In an army like this I would also consider knights because of a coward's reward. It would be really fun to pick up syvaris and drop him in a cluster of knights.

[kjmoncma]

Engagement Rules: A figure becomes engaged when it moves adjacent to an opponent's figure.

Engagement strike: Figures may be targeted only as they move into engagement with a Nikita Agent.

First thing to take into consideration: Who was moved?

Second thing to consider: Did that figure that was moved enter into engagement with a "Batter."

Isn't saying that Nakita's do not get to roll for engagement strike the same as saying that the figure did not move adjacent or move into engagement with a Nakita Agent and is therefore not engaged?

IMO, this would work as long as the defending figure was thrown/placed at the "Batter" and the "Batter" is not thrown/placed at the defending figure. The word "move" is used to describe more than the action of just moving on your turn. It's used to describe going from one tile to another.

Also, if you still think that this wouldn't apply, would you allow someone to take Emirroon and summon three elves, place them all adjacent to a Nakita Agent and not roll for engagement strike since the word is "place" and not "move?"