Are customs really worth doing?

[skyknight]

Alright guys I have a question for you. Little background first. Today was my first day off in about two weeks. I did a bunch of house work and then sat for about four hours doing custom work. For those of you who are not overly artsy, let me explain something to you. Being creative is almost a curse at times, I get an idea in my head and it almost burns. Work drags, my attention is lacking, my brain is not interested in doing anything else except spitting this idea out into a physical form. When I say it burns that is the best way I can describe it. I also do oil paintings about four times a year and generally around 4 or 5 right in a row. My wife asks me to do more but I cannot. I do not get to decide when and when not to be creative, it is not my choice. If you are plaqued with this then you know exactly what I mean. Sometimes it is not a good thing when running a business and raising five kids.
This is why I love Heroscape, I have been in this creative zone for around six months now and it is not really subsiding. I love making customs and custom terrain. Unfortunately this is where my question is coming from.
As of right now I have 2814 hits on my custom site, I have 118 posts :( That is really not a good ratio. Of those 118, probably 40 or 50 are mine. If you are admin you ratios are a bit better from the notoriety factor but generally they fade into obscurity as well.
I have been talkin to some of the other custom guys and some say they prefer making maps, the feedback is much better. I have to agree on this point. Even amongst custom guys there is a divide. I have been told before that some custom folks do not like repaints, while others have expressed the opinion that gluing guys onto a base really is not a custom at all. In all honesty I do like the created customs. Cupids contest was wonderful for this fact. But even it did not get huge hits.
I wonder, is it time for me to stop posting so many customs? Should I concentrate on other things for the site to help out more? I will continue to make customs but is it worth it to post them here? I know I am not the only one who feels this way, others have told me as much. Well anyway I would appreciate honest votes on this subject. I really am curious as a community if we believe the customs section is critical to this site or just another bunch of threads?

[ultradoug]

I dont offen drop by. but the custom deals always been the "place" to be for the communy.

[Oprime]

had to go with last one (honesty).

Im not overly creative , I gave creating some of my own customs a shot for a while but quickly lost interest.

I think its a combo of things, but primarily my utter ineptitude on the computer to create any kind of a card that is even worth looking at caused me great frustration and essentially killed all desire to try to create customs.

[jdtenor]

I dont think you should stop doing what you like, as for the customs I can take them or leave them, in the beggining I did lots of custom because with only 16 army cards in the master set I had no choice but to create more armys, after wave 2. I stopped making customs I took all the customs out & started playing only official armys only, I think for scappers in places you cant get some of the expansion custom is the only way to go, now thanks to dj, I likecustom terrain now

[InfinityMax]

I don't make custom units for other people. I make them to play myself. I wouldn't even bother to share them, but there are other people who also enjoy them.

Come to think of it, when I made games, they were only fun if they were games I was making for myself. When I design, the only designs I really enjoy are the ones I do for myself.

My point is, if there is not one single other person on the planet who enjoys your customs, you should still make them. If every other person alive thinks you are wasting your time, but you enjoy them, you owe it to yourself to continue.

[skyknight]

That is kinda how I feel about it IMax, I just wonder though, is it worth takin the time and posting it here. I do do customs for me but often times I put up the figure pic, some instructions, the card, and some chit chat with each figure. I know for a while you debated putting yours back up as well. If something happened to Scapers I do not know if I would bother again :?
Anyways guys I appreciate the honest answers so far, I will cast no aspersions your way, I am not put off in the least bit by your guys comments.
I am just curious as a community how we feel about this thread. Anyone who wants to argue these points with you should remember I asked a direct question and you gave a direct answer. Very much appreciated.

[geddy lifeson]

I like customs and one day when I quit being lazy I will pull out all the paints I bought, a knife and all my extra MS figs and go to work. I know a lot of people find great accomplishment in creating something, be it repaint, using another fig or modding. When you create something yourself, especially for your own gratification, does it matter what others think? In the end, even if you find out less than a handful of people that like your stuff I am sure many more do as well but dont post anything.

Keep posting them and let those of us who are jealous of your abilities drool.

[Grungebob]

Nobody loves customs more than me and Truth!! Keep up the work! If there were no customs I would not be here.

[Jason]

I voted for the last option, they hold little interest to me. My fav boards are the strategy boards

[dickflea]

Personally i'd like to create some customs myself if i had the time to spare. So i'd say just keep em coming cause i could use some ideas.... :wink:

[skyknight]

That is what hooked me as well Grunge.

[Buddy Lee]

I dont think you should stop doing what you like, as for the customs I can take them or leave them, in the beggining I did lots of custom because with only 16 army cards in the master set I had no choice but to create more armys, after wave 2. I stopped making customs I took all the customs out & started playing only official armys only,...

I think jdtenor hit the nail on the head. In the beginning the world was void and without form. . . oops, a little too far back.

At first there were very few units to choose from. Lets face it there just aren't enough units to add a lot of variety to the games. Also, the masterset doesn't have that wide a range and interconnectivity between units. The only existing connection is the DW9K and Zettian Guards Range enhancement. Also Grimnak alludes to other units (Orcs) and shows more how units can help each other. Early on customs were a means to expand the Heroscape universe and allow for wider playability, variety and range.

As Hasbro came out with more units the "need" for customs deminished. I no longer had to create Zizz-Zix (a teleporter ala Saylind), or the Construction Worker (who could tear down ruins). These were early customs that my niece, nephew and I created just after opening the game on Christmas Day 2004 and utilized any small figures we could find in the toy box (Heroquest Orcs, Skeletons, and others). Soon Wave 1 allowed for more variety. The pieces were properly scaled, appropriately painted, and balanced for play.

At least for me as more and more figures came out I no longer saw the need for more customs. That is not to say that there aren't some very imaginative ideas out there, with some excellent creative skills going into the work and effort. But, I myself am more than satisfied with Hasbro's offerings, therefore I no longer see the need to frequent customs sections, or engage in their creation.

Frankly, I'm a bit amazed that there are others out there who still create and put up for commentary custom units given the recent lack of interest. I certainly appreciate the effort they go to to create them, it isn't easy to put your time into something and then not see any tangible results (money, recognition, even criticism). I do not want to discourage the efforts because as Imax said:

My point is, if there is not one single other person on the planet who enjoys your customs, you should still make them. If every other person alive thinks you are wasting your time, but you enjoy them, you owe it to yourself to continue.

Buddy Lee

[Revdyer]

As you know, sky, I like to repaint my duplicates, so that when having two Mimrings in a game, for instance, they don't look identical. Your customs inspire me and give me good ideas for my repaints. I'm not into creating new units, but that's just me.

As to the creativity "brain burn," I sure know that one! For me it is usually with words, though. I get to balance that with the fact that I have to be creative every Sunday morning, too. That's sometimes a burden, but grace abounds.

And I'd never cast aspersions on you, either.

[skyknight]

:lol: Dispersions, Aspersions....all the same right :wink: Now fellas take notice, that is how you correct someone without telling them they are a complete idiot. Thanks for the kid gloves Rev :lol:

[LordRaidor]

...but if you want the long-winded version, ...read on... ^_^

I'm basically in the same vein as IMax. I've made customs since HeroScape first hit the shelves. It's a fun way to express and manifest my creativity. It's time-consuming, ...but I enjoy it. I don't do it for the kudos, ...I do it for me. Sure, ...praise is nice and all, but my own satisfaction is the true bottom line.

I've had a customs 'thread' on all three sites now. I didn't give a second thought to rebuilding it at either of its new homes after HS.net. I've already got the cards, and the time to upload and post them is, in my opinion, a minimal investment. The true strength of any community is the strength it draws from each and every individual member's contributions, no matter how seemingly small, ...or unappreciated. The traffic typically seen by my customs thread(s) fluctuates between 'negligable' and 'pathetic', but I still put 'em up as I make 'em. Even if 99.9% of the visitors here are completely oblivious (or even disapproving) of my work, ...as soon as a single 'Scaper gains anything positive from my customs, then the effort is worth it to me. If somebody likes one of my customs, or uses my card-sized-cards, or just gets a passing chuckle from one of my works, then the site and the community grow stronger...

I must admit, my own motivation for creating customs is losing its momentum, not because of public apathy, but because the primary reason I started making them no longer exists. Like many others, I made my first customs because the Master Set left SOOOOO much ground uncovered. With what seemed like an interminable stretch 'til the first promised wave of expansions, the game simply begged for more variety. Customs creators (like us) leapt in to fill the void, churning out tons of new, unique, interesting, and fun custom units, using whatever resources were available (from other pre-painted minis to little Lego-men). As more and more expansion waves hit, a much greater variety of figs became available, and my personal impetus for custom creation naturally began to slowly subside...

Don't get me wrong; I'll still make a new custom here or there whenever I see a fig that inspires me, or my 'unexplored-game-mechanic' muse strikes. However, there's no doubt that my new customs will be fewer and farther between, especially in the wake of the Zaravi project...

But the bottom line is - If YOU still enjoy making customs, and YOUR creativity still has HeroScape avenues to explore, then you certainly should continue to do so. If you don't feel it's worth the effort to post them online, then that's your call - I can certainly respect your opinion, and even empathize with it to some degree. However, I personally feel that it would be tragedy for any HeroScaper out there to stop posting their creations and sharing with the community. Be they custom units, or maps, or drafting strategies, or future unit speculations, or whatever strikes your fancy - I strongly feel that every single contrubition to this site is a worthy one, ...no matter how unapreciated or unnoticed it may seem.

Every single snowflake makes a difference. ...Just ask anyone who's ever seen an avalanche.

^_^
-LordRaidor-

[ultradoug]

^_^
-LordRaidor-

I demand a ^_^ custom.

[DoesntCompute]

I miss the 'best of' and 'MS reuse' custom threads. I do not have time to read through all of the custom threads to find the good, workable units. I really enjoyed and wanted to use the best of the customs though.

[netherspirit]

I miss the 'best of' and 'MS reuse' custom threads. I do not have time to read through all of the custom threads to find the good, workable units. I really enjoyed and wanted to use the best of the customs though.

The Halls of Vahalla is still here.
http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=907

And I am sure the MS Repaints thread will show up again eventually.

[bushi96]

I love the customs- keep 'em coming!

I do not however post concerning the cards as I do not want to get involved in the arguments concerning the custom abilities. I leave that to people with more experience then me.

So all I have to offer is the gratuitous "Good job!" and do you really need to see that? If so, I would be happy to be a post ***** and throw some smilies around. Custom designers could use a pat on the back too, I guess.

[InfinityMax]

I miss the 'best of' and 'MS reuse' custom threads. I do not have time to read through all of the custom threads to find the good, workable units. I really enjoyed and wanted to use the best of the customs though.

On top of the Halls, which Nether pointed out, we have a quickly growing Barracks where we are putting customs you could use.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=987

Give that another month or so, and there should be a whole hell of a lot of customs in there that, while they may not be the best ever made, are useful and generally playable.

[DoesntCompute]

I miss the 'best of' and 'MS reuse' custom threads. I do not have time to read through all of the custom threads to find the good, workable units. I really enjoyed and wanted to use the best of the customs though.

On top of the Halls, which Nether pointed out, we have a quickly growing Barracks where we are putting customs you could use.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=987

Give that another month or so, and there should be a whole hell of a lot of customs in there that, while they may not be the best ever made, are useful and generally playable.

Thanks IM and Nether.

[Revdyer]

:lol: Dispersions, Aspersions....all the same right :wink: Now fellas take notice, that is how you correct someone without telling them they are a complete idiot. Thanks for the kid gloves Rev :lol:

The basic rule is: you have your choice of teaching (or reminding) someone or of winning (at least in your own opinion). I'll always choose to teach or share, not win or boost my own ego.

But you, sky, already knew this.

[toddrew]

I chose the "keep 'em coming" because I do enjoy seeing all the customs (both figures and abilities), though I haven't taken the time to make many myself.

I have taken notice of the 'barracks' threads now, and have begun to comment there on those particular customs - makes for interesting discussion and will likely use the occasional custom in a game.

[RobWeaver]

I made a lot of customs in the early days of HS, when the only official characters were in the Master Set. I wanted orcs to go with Grimmy, and suddenly I was inspired to field characters from fiction that I'd loved. I've really slowed down, almost to a standstill now. No one but me would play the customs, and I wanted to play the offical characters. I don't have skill or talent with computer graphics, so even the best of my cards are a distant 2nd to anything being posted today. In fact, when I do make customs, I use a paper and pencil form like the old Heroquest character sheet (courtesy of Malachi). I still make customs for specialty games, like an entire line of gunfighters and Civil War squads and heroes, but I would rather play than spend the time making really good cards for them. Much of the time, I adapt an idea to use official figures rather than create customs (How much difference is there really between a Robert E. Howard Pict and a Grut Archer?) I still check other people's customs, and sometimes find ones I like. I weighed in on the question of tanks a little while ago, but I don't read the customs section with the passion I once did.

[Karkadinn]

If there were no customs, WTF would I talk about? Official rules and official figures have been hashed and rehashed, and although there's always that initial burst of excitement when a new expansion is discovered, that alone isn't enough to have a stable community. Like probably every creator, I've chaffed at the lack of outside interest to really give the hard work of the thing meaning, but still enjoyed the process of custom creation in and of itself as a creative endeavour. If there were no customs, I would literally have no reason to be here! After all, if you're limiting yourself to the official game, why talk about it when you could be playing it? As for the disinterest itself... I have no solution. You can't change human nature... and human nature has shown itself to be fickle, irrational, and lazy. ;) There's no way to design a card so that it will be popular. The best you can do is design a card that most people don't hate, and then hope a discussion about it starts. Whether it does or not often has little to do with the design of the custom itself.
Huh, I voted for the second option but it's showing zero votes. Wonder WTF is up with that.

[skyknight]

That is weird, I was wondering why nobody was takin option 2. Anyways, as far as evryone saying how many units there are now, so we really do not need customs, you may be right. I have actually slowed down on new and unique figs, my passion latley has been for support customs. I have made the Omnicron heavy assault mechs, Braxxana daughter of Braxas, Sudemas sand dragon, Morsbanes Brass Golems. This is alot of fun for me to tie these figs into eachother. Everyone complains about lava, I say why complain? I have almost a full set of master figs now who wallow in lava like a pig in peanut butter :) I do think there is room for new figs.
As far as me qutting making customs, I think some of you took that the wrong way. I was wondering more if it was worth the time to photograph, shrink the pic, upload it, attach it and then write about it in my posts. I guess the answer is yes, I have a few NOOB's who show up in my repaints and say" that is what I am going to do!!!". So at least maybe it will help to grow the fan base possibly. Someone else recently did a version of my Omnicron Warlord. That made me pretty happy as well. I like it when people try to copy my figs, now if I can just send some to Rob and Craig :)

[Vydar]

I know a lot of people highly value custom units, but, overall, I don't really care about them - though I do try to vote when I see a poll on custom units. It is too difficult to create a custom figure that will be agreed on by all people. That is why I pay for the game - so that there is an official body (Hasbro and the game designers) to ensure the game remains balanced so that there won't be arguments over what figures are allowable or not. (Though even they fail at times and we ban overused figures.)

I do appreciate custom terrain - especially good blocking terrain. Since these can be used by both players on the battlefield there is less room for argument. Also, HS could definitely use more complex LOS or cover rules to add depth to tactics. Custom blocking terrain that can actually be useful helps a lot with the games' tactics.

Rules are really where I prefer to spend time. Are the rules balanced? What small tweaks could we do to fix problems? How can we turn HS into a campaign system? Unfortunately, as Karkadinn mentioned above, because of HeroScapes' static nature and simplicity of rules, people are very resistant to change and so this section of game development is not talked about much. (On the MechWarrior forums this was the most exciting area because you actually could influence the designers to fix problem areas in the game's design.)

[Grungebob]

Though even they fail at times and we ban overused figures.)
Seems to me that if you can get that kind of consensus, you would have no problem banning customs you did not find balanced.

[LilNewbie]

Keep 'em coming! I love customs. It's a creative outlet for me and it's fun to see other viewpoints on abilities and figures. One of the things that made HS attractive is being able to use the many MK, HC and MW figures I've got laying around in boxes. It's great to get comments on customs but I don't expect it. Heck, it's tough to go through everyone elses and I do try.

Newb.

[ultradoug]

DoesntCompute
ever use that card in your avi in actual play :D

[DoesntCompute]

DoesntCompute
ever use that card in your avi in actual play :D

Not yet but I plan on doing so soon. I think it is awesome.

[quixotequest]

I love making customs. My son and I--and also my brother--will talk about some niche to fill--either for the collective game's draft pool or for a certain faction, team or theme. I completely understand SkyKnight's comment about "burn": it is a blast to find the mini, come up with the stats and work to cost it appropriately through comparison and playtesting. It can be very consuming and addictive. But honestly, I have so many creative diversions, that I want to balance things so that Heroscape customs don't take up too great a portion. Lately I've been spending more time on Heroscape and neglecting some of my other gaming and collecting interests.

But to create customs and post them here isn't enough to stoke the passion to create for me. Maybe the community is too small or we have so many lurkers. There is not enough input and feedback to drive me, but it certainly is fun to participate here. Getting a well considered compliment or critique from some of our more active customizers is really really great--especially considering their brains are likely diverted like mine on to their next project. Ultimately I make my customs for me and my son. And it's fun to be able to share that adventure with those interested enough to read.

[Xotli]

AFAIC the primary function of the customs section is so that schmucks like me can post our customs and get some good feedback on points costs, wording of special abilities, over/under-powered-ness, etc. One day I hope to be smart enough and experienced enough to offer comments to the schmucks that come after me. :wink: But I don't spend much time trying to use other people's customs. If I can get some inspiration from looking at them--or others can get some inspiration from looking at mine--that's just gravy on the cake (to mix a metaphor). But my customs are 100% for me (and son).

As I've said before (several times by now), I'm not a map dude, so the custom terrain doesn't turn me on, and the new maps and scenarios are a great resource when I'm looking for a map that has this or that characteristic, but I would never be into it enough to hang around and comment to their creators. The rules questions are interesting and I try to follow that stuff but it can devolve into pointless semantics, which doesn't interest me. Variations on rules I read sometimes, but I don't feel I've gotten everything there is to get out of the official rules yet.

So it's the new ideas for figures that really turns me on. I can't paint, and I can't model; I have no patience for fine detail work and I can't cut straight; I can't draw and I can barely work MS Paint enough to get a card cranked out. I will freely (and happily) admit that I'm primarily a take-the-figure-from-somewhere-else-and-glue-it-on-a-HS-base kinda guy. For me the creativity comes in designing the stats and specials. Can I make this figure fill a niche? Can I make it thematically solid? Can I come up with specials that really get me (and maybe others) excited about using them? And I know people say that just gluing a figure on a base is nothing--and it's not--but they're ignoring the "back end" of the custom creation process. (And if I may be bold and hopefully not offend anyone, I would say that such an attitude can produce a unit which is beautiful to look at but crappy to play, and who wants that?)

So, please no, let's don't get rid of the customs section. Like Karkadinn, that's pretty much the whole reason I'm here.

[Revdyer]

Good comments, Xotli. Allow me, please, to add a couple of more.

I don't create customs. I do do some repaints, but use the official cards for the units themselves.

Yet, reading and viewing customs gives me insights into new ways to play with the official figures. Looking at what others see as strengths and weaknesses, which is often the inspiration for customs, gives me useful and fun ways of thinking about the official figures. So, as far as I'm concerned, this would be a weaker place without the custom community.

As one who plays only official cards, I say, "Thank you!" to the creative custom players, for they think (to use the cliche) outside of the box and that thinking helps me be a better standard player.

[Xotli]

Good comments, Xotli.
Thanx Rev.

Yet, reading and viewing customs gives me insights into new ways to play with the official figures. Looking at what others see as strengths and weaknesses, which is often the inspiration for customs, gives me useful and fun ways of thinking about the official figures. So, as far as I'm concerned, this would be a weaker place without the custom community.

As one who plays only official cards, I say, "Thank you!" to the creative custom players, for they think (to use the cliche) outside of the box and that thinking helps me be a better standard player.
Preach on, brother. :wink:

[countblah]

Possibly one of the greatest things about Heroscape is that it is continually modifiable. That is, you can keep on using it long after Hasbro has stopped supporting it (read: next year sometime). Because the plot of the game is so loose (read: almost non-existent), and the cards practically invite customs, you can throw whatever you want into the game, and have it be new and exciting all over again. Really liked watching Star Wars Episode III? Toss General Greivous into the game, and have him duke it out with Braxas. Think Oliver Twist was super? Give him an "ask for more gruel" power, and roll him out there. Anything, anyone you want, all the time, totally available.

One of the best reasons for playing this game. Truly.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Being creative is almost a curse at times, I get an idea in my head and it almost burns. Work drags, my attention is lacking, my brain is not interested in doing anything else except spitting this idea out into a physical form. When I say it burns that is the best way I can describe it.

That's so funny, Skyknight, I was the absolute same way when HS first came into my life. I found HS.net and discovered Aratak's custom stuff - Talos especially - and I had the burn. I would think all the time about customs and characters to convert. ALL THE TIME :lol:
At work. While Driving. Eating dinner. Mowing the lawn. The customs I spewed forth were endles and most not very good. :lol:

The creativeness was way overwhelming the sensible playtesting and refining of the customs I already had received feedback on.

In addition, I found I did not know the game as well as I could've just by simply playing the official units that were available - and I'm still learning a lot from the endless combinations.

I've waaay taken a back seat to customs because even though they are wholey for my pleasure (C'mon who else besides Reaper would know Montenegro, Thundra, Meg Mucklebones?!?) and a ton of fun to create, I have just as much fun discovering the HS units available to me now.
In addition, my play group enjoys the official units a lot and we are very happy with the established norm.

I'll say that you should continue to make customs and continue to post them. Your views/posts ratio is as normal as any other custom creator track record. Lots of looks, but not much feedback. And if you do get feedback, it'll usually come a core group of buddies you've established here.

I've just today taking a more interested look in to the custom units forum. Good stuff for sure!

[cbs42]

That's so funny, Skyknight, I was the absolute same way when HS first came into my life. I found HS.net and discovered Aratak's custom stuff - Talos especially - and I had the burn. I would think all the time about customs and characters to convert. ALL THE TIME
I'm guilty of doing the same thing when I first got into HS. Everywhere I looked, I saw new ideas for customs. During meetings at work, I would daydream about how to convert some of my co-workers and managers into custom units.

[Revdyer]

Then there is driving through New Mexico and wondering how many hexes the buttes are high. :)

[toddrew]

Then there is driving through New Mexico and wondering how many hexes the buttes are high. :)

72,387 - I counted while taking my son to a Tae Kwon Do tournament in Albuquerque. Not as many as I thought :lol:

[Revdyer]

Yeah, toddrew, I think 72,387 is about the right number. So how many damage dice you we throw if someone falls off?

[toddrew]

Yeah, toddrew, I think 72,387 is about the right number. So how many damage dice you we throw if someone falls off?

Usually the game ends before they hit the ground.

[Jeabird]

I find the act of creating a custom give me a better understanding of the official units and rules. Also my official units are precious to me and I often play with kids in shelters who will chew or throw them. My begining to customize came out of a desire to protect my figs. But them the kids had ideas for characters that were special to them so I started working on ones for them and just could never stop. I love the work done by everyone and often use a certain wording for a power that is similar to something I've been thinking about. Keep them coming guys, your work is valuable.

[skyknight]

Wow I had not seen this thread for awhile. I have actually slowed my customs down as of late. I am in need of a creative jump. It will happen but it runs in spurts.

[Rhydderch]

Wow I had not seen this thread for awhile. I have actually slowed my customs down as of late. I am in need of a creative jump. It will happen but it runs in spurts.

As you probably know I'm a big fan of customs so I personally would have voted for the top three choices if I could have. As it stands I settled on the third:

I enjoy the creative spark...

Although the other two opinions would have fit me as well. Also I enjoy the community of custom designers and the dialogue that often goes hand in hand with the development of a good custom.

[Xotli]

I have actually slowed my customs down as of late.
I actually have not slowed down designing customs, but I haven't been able to find the time to work up cards and get them posted. Hopefully after the kid's birthday tomorrow things will get less crazy around here ...