my critique of marvelscape and how it compares to heroscape

[hakysak]

After purchasing the VERY anticipated Marvelscape, i felt disappointed. Lack of synergies and tactics forced a very hack and slash battling style compared to Heroscape. I don't see tournament quality in Marvelscape. Also, i don't see much of a future for Marvelscape. There are only two "factions", good guys and bad guys. There are way more good guys than bad guys in the Marvel Universe. Also, because Marvelscape is not collected by blind purchasing, multiples of different characters with different abilities will be almost pointless.
With all that said, I got tired of Marvelscape after only a few games. So I took it upon myself to answer the question that has been on everyone's mind since the winter before last. Is Marvelscape compatible with Heroscape? Yes, but only on large scales. Marvel heroes are based on a point system very similar to Heroscape. Because of the new anti falling ability in Marvelscape not altering the points of a character, I suggest to add roughly 7-13% of a marvel characters point cost to play them against Heroscape characters.
My ratings of best to worst in marvelscape are these:
Thanos
Silver Surfer
Incredible Hulk
Captain America
Red Skull
Doctor Doom
Abomination
Venom
Iron Man
Spiderman
Thanos is almost indestructible. With the highest ranged attack seen so far in addition he is definitely the highlight of the set. With the possibility to come back after he dies, drafting him will make any opponent pee in their pants. Worth 410 points in HS.
Silver Surfer is probably the best one to use to take out a single figure with his cosmic force blast. He's hard to kill with his ability to pretty much stay ahead of everyone. Worth 345 points in HS.
The Incredible Hulk is like Krug, except squads can't kill him. He eats mele squads for breakfast and is the riskiest to attack. He, also, will make opponents pee in their pants. Worth 420 points in HS.
Captain America is the best figure to use with HS pieces. HS characters can boost him up so he can easily beat any of the above characters and more. After play testing him against characters in HS, I decided to leave his cost alone. Worth 220 points in either system. (I did play test all of them in different situations by the way)
Red Skull has maybe the best ability in the game, one to constantly adapt to the current situation. Low stats cause a problem though. Cost in both game systems is 190 points.
Dr Doom is a Ne-gok-sa whose actually worth using. He can use his mind control ability or take on an opponent. Because playing against HS characters would actually LOWER his cost, the anti falling ability only boost his cost a little. worth 250 in HS.
Abomination is a slightly weaker hulk. worth 340 in HS.
Venom is 10 points lower cost than Spiderman, but better. Neither one cane take a hit, but Venom actually packs a punch. The lowest point character in Marvelscape, worth 170 in HS.
Iron Man makes the board a very dangerous place. He deals two ranged attacks and his flying makes it easy for him to gain height advantage, making him very difficult to kill. I say 255 HS points.
Spiderman, an overrated pushover . The only thing he has going is his Spidey-sense. Any flying HS hero or squad can take him. Raelin has a 30% rate of defeating him and she's half his points. I think he's worth too many points in Marvel but 160 seems to fit HS just right.
And that's my opinion of the Marvelscape set and how it relates to classic HS. Standalone it is a weak game, just a few tweaks and you can get a lot more playability with HS figures. Remember to change the cost of the characters or they will be too powerful to use in HS.

HaKYSaK

[Sherman Davies]

Because of the new anti falling ability in Marvelscape not altering the points of a character, I suggest to add roughly 7-13% of a marvel characters point cost to play them against Heroscape characters.

Well, you're free to hold your opinion, but may I ask what the basis for this statement is? Since the anti-falling ability is a function of Super Strength, what makes you say that it isn't included in the costs of the characters?

[hakysak]

Because of the new anti falling ability in Marvelscape not altering the points of a character, I suggest to add roughly 7-13% of a marvel characters point cost to play them against Heroscape characters.

Well, you're free to hold your opinion, but may I ask what the basis for this statement is? Since the anti-falling ability is a function of Super Strength, what makes you say that it isn't included in the costs of the characters?

the persons with the anti- fall are those with movement abilities ie flying. everyone in ms has super abilities, hence the high cost factor. that "super power" is a givin for those with move abilities. that is my conclusion after playing them against hs charactors and deleting and adding that ability. but like you said, that's just my opinion

[jdm61802]

I had to read this twice "way more good guys then bad guys in the Marvel Universe" to make sure I read it right. Huh. How do you figure that?

Good guy
Spdier-Man

Enemies
Doctor Octopus
Lizard
Kraven
Sandman
Vulture
Venom
Carnage
Electro
Mysterio
etc.....

Good guy
Captain America

Enemies
Red Skull
Hydra
A.I.M.
Crossbones
Dr. Fortuous (I know I must be mis-spelling that)
etc.....

Good guy
Iron Man

Enemies
Titanium Man
Crison Dynamo
Ghost
Spy Master
Fing Fang Foom
Ultron
etc....

Even if you do the X-men

You have the Hellfire club, the Acolytes, the Reavers, Apocalypse and his Horsemen, etc...


As for the game, I found it more entertaining on a larger map. The small map that came with the game just did not offer enough tactical possibilities. I am planning on trying out the heroes and villians tomorrow against some of the heroes and commons of Heroscape.

[Lotus]

What I found amzing, is I feel completely opposite you about which game is more entertaining. I much prefer to play with Marvelscape then plain HS. It could have a lot to do with the more tied and themed game it creates.
Anyways, I think your costs estimates are botched and think they play fine as they are, I mean, they were tested by a lot more than one person against regular figures as well.

[hakysak]

most bad guys are shared between heroes. the powerful ones at least. being a non-collectible miniatures game (meaning no blind purchasing or constant remakes of characters) set in waves, only the mainstream heroes and villains are likely to be produced, not that one guy who appeared in that xmen trilogy in 1973. i was wrong in saying there are more good guys in the marvel universe, but a game like this will focus on mainstream and popularized heroes and villains. that's what i meant by what i said. sorry for not saying what i meant.

[johnny139]

Well, Marvelscape doesn't have (as many) tactics. If you came in expecting a bunch of guys with massive muscles wearing pajamas beating the crap out of eachother, you'll be happy. If you expected deep strategy like Heroscape, you won't be. It's a different game, not better, not worse, but different. Like the difference between playing a Knight army and a Viper army. They're both effective, for the most part, but play very differently.

[Cavalier]

most bad guys are shared between heroes. the powerful ones at least. being a non-collectible miniatures game (meaning no blind purchasing or constant remakes of characters) set in waves, only the mainstream heroes and villains are likely to be produced, not that one guy who appeared in that xmen trilogy in 1973. i was wrong in saying there are more good guys in the marvel universe, but a game like this will focus on mainstream and popularized heroes and villains. that's what i meant by what i said. sorry for not saying what i meant. Would you call Thanos mainstream? How about Black Panther? I would call neither of these popularized characters, yet one is in the master set and the other is included in the first expansion set. I cannot believe I am hearing you say that non-blind purchasing is a negative thing.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

[hakysak]

What I found amzing, is I feel completely opposite you about which game is more entertaining. I much prefer to play with Marvelscape then plain HS. It could have a lot to do with the more tied and themed game it creates.
Anyways, I think your costs estimates are botched and think they play fine as they are, I mean, they were tested by a lot more than one person against regular figures as well.

to each his own. i just like the way HS is centered more on army factors than individuals. I felt that the different ways the games are played added different factors in point factoring. you do agree that they are played differently and my thing was to incorporate that into interplaying them.

[hakysak]

most bad guys are shared between heroes. the powerful ones at least. being a non-collectible miniatures game (meaning no blind purchasing or constant remakes of characters) set in waves, only the mainstream heroes and villains are likely to be produced, not that one guy who appeared in that xmen trilogy in 1973. i was wrong in saying there are more good guys in the marvel universe, but a game like this will focus on mainstream and popularized heroes and villains. that's what i meant by what i said. sorry for not saying what i meant. Would you call Thanos mainstream? How about Black Panther? I would call neither of these popularized characters, yet one is in the master set and the other is included in the first expansion set. I cannot believe I am hearing you say that non-blind purchasing is a negative thing.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

well, i didn't say blind purchasing was bad, just that developing blind purchase games are developed differently than games like hs. Black panther and thanos are a lot more popular than the great lake avengers aren't they?

[Sweetcurse]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

Oh, and blind purchase is EVIL. No reason why we can't have multiple versions of heroes in MS. HS is doing it with Raelin and Drake.

[hakysak]

Well, Marvelscape doesn't have (as many) tactics. If you came in expecting a bunch of guys with massive muscles wearing pajamas beating the crap out of eachother, you'll be happy. If you expected deep strategy like Heroscape, you won't be. It's a different game, not better, not worse, but different. Like the difference between playing a Knight army and a Viper army. They're both effective, for the most part, but play very differently.

that's what i'm saying. i just thought there'd be alittle more to the game, but there wasn't. i do lots of boardgames and miniatures game and i just thought it fell short. after trying it out with old hs peices, i found strategies, which i shared a couple of, and a way to balance the two games in one because the peices are designed for two different games

[hakysak]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

i didn't see that . also im disscussing my opinion of incorporating it with classic HS

[Sweetcurse]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

i didn't see that . also im disscussing my opinion of incorporating it with classic HS

I was going to post links to other threads about HS/MS compatibility, but found too many. About 2 minutes of digging back would have shown you all those threads about that issue.

:spam:

[johnny139]

Well, Marvelscape doesn't have (as many) tactics. If you came in expecting a bunch of guys with massive muscles wearing pajamas beating the crap out of eachother, you'll be happy. If you expected deep strategy like Heroscape, you won't be. It's a different game, not better, not worse, but different. Like the difference between playing a Knight army and a Viper army. They're both effective, for the most part, but play very differently.

that's what i'm saying. i just thought there'd be alittle more to the game, but there wasn't. i do lots of boardgames and miniatures game and i just thought it fell short. after trying it out with old hs peices, i found strategies, which i shared a couple of, and a way to balance the two games in one because the peices are designed for two different games

Well, when you have the Hulk, you don't need strategy. With 12 attack dice, do you want to flank, or smash? As of now, the Marvel figures are a lot like the Large Hero packs. With Jotun, for example, there isn't much to think about. You run up, swing, toss a few people, etc. The same with Marvel (for the most part).

[allskulls]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

i didn't see that . also im disscussing my opinion of incorporating it with classic HS

I was going to post links to other threads about HS/MS compatibility, but found too many. About 2 minutes of digging back would have shown you all those threads about that issue.

:spam:
Here's one link that should squash the compatability issue for ya :D (http://www.heroscapers.com/podcasts/episodes/CraigandChrisTalkMarvel.mp3)

[Grungebob]

I will agree with Hakysak that there are no synergies in Marvelscape yet and that reduces alot of planning and strategy if you ask me. But, I do not agree that Marvel is worse than Classic Heroscape. I love em both. I have enough room in my heart for both game systems. See how I am!

[Sweetcurse]

You're a man with a big heart, enough love for all of heroscape, even Dund and Taelord.

[Grungebob]

You're a man with a big heart, enough love for all of heroscape, even Dund and Taelord.My Taelord rides Dund into battle... Doesn't yours?

[Fl0ydski]

You're a man with a big heart, enough love for all of heroscape, even Dund and Taelord.My Taelord rides Dund into battle... Doesn't yours?

My Taelord is blind. Dund is his seeing eye dog.


___

I really wish the Marvel set had come with either 1: More characters or 2:a plethora of destructible/lift-able objects to add to the feel of the supers comics while we wait (im)patiently for the first boosters of the much needed heroes. But i think it might not be till the second wave till we start seeing the aforementioned synergies. (with the Fantastic 4 being the exception, since it looks like they (well 3 anyway) will be making the 1st wave release.

~Floyd

[Grungebob]

You're a man with a big heart, enough love for all of heroscape, even Dund and Taelord.My Taelord rides Dund into battle... Doesn't yours?

My Taelord is blind. Dund is his seeing eye dog.


___

I really wish the Marvel set had come with either 1: More characters or 2:a plethora of destructible/lift-able objects to add to the feel of the supers comics while we wait (im)patiently for the first boosters of the much needed heroes. But i think it might not be till the second wave till we start seeing the aforementioned synergies. (with the Fantastic 4 being the exception, since it looks like they (well 3 anyway) will be making the 1st wave release.

~FloydThis is the time for custom sweetness!

[champrjk]

I think Marvel is totally awesome. Almost as cool as classic Heroscape. I think its production line will be almost as good too.

[hakysak]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

i didn't see that . also im disscussing my opinion of incorporating it with classic HS

I was going to post links to other threads about HS/MS compatibility, but found too many. About 2 minutes of digging back would have shown you all those threads about that issue.

:spam:
Here's one link that should squash the compatability issue for ya :D (http://www.heroscapers.com/podcasts/episodes/CraigandChrisTalkMarvel.mp3)

i thought compatability was out of the question at first glance. thanos, silver surfer and hulk are really too powerful to play against any kind of heroscape charactors. as long as other marvels are incorporated then they can work. the other charactors in ms work fine so far.

[Ursas]

When I look at your assesment of the figures, I think I can understand why you are not happy with the set...

I feel your reviews of Red Skull, Spiderman and Iron Man are way off. You seem to be drawn to the heavy hitters as you rated them higher. I think you are missing these three figures true apeal and use as far as strategy.

This is the one thing I think Heroscape and Marvel Scape have in common. Certain figures arent just to do damage. They have a certain nuance about how you play them.

Sure SS, Thanos and Hulk are powerhouses but the lesser three I mentioned are just as important and usful if played correctly.

I think the first attmept and successful release of Marvel Scape mimicks all the things that make Heroscape intersting, mixed with strategy and most of all fun.

[hakysak]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

Oh, and blind purchase is EVIL. No reason why we can't have multiple versions of heroes in MS. HS is doing it with Raelin and Drake.

if everyone has the same oppertunity to get the best "spiderman" then everyone will. then there will be no advantage to having him because everyone else will too. then every game will be the best spider man against the best spiderman.

[rdhight]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

Oh, and blind purchase is EVIL. No reason why we can't have multiple versions of heroes in MS. HS is doing it with Raelin and Drake.

if everyone has the same oppertunity to get the best "spiderman" then everyone will. then there will be no advantage to having him because everyone else will too. then every game will be the best spider man against the best spiderman.

Great! Everyone building their army from equal material-- sounds good to me.

[hakysak]

When I look at your assesment of the figures, I think I can understand why you are not happy with the set...

I feel your reviews of Red Skull, Spiderman and Iron Man are way off. You seem to be drawn to the heavy hitters as you rated them higher. I think you are missing these three figures true apeal and use as far as strategy.

This is the one thing I think Heroscape and Marvel Scape have in common. Certain figures arent just to do damage. They have a certain nuance about how you play them.

Sure SS, Thanos and Hulk are powerhouses but the lesser three I mentioned are just as important and usful if played correctly.

I think the first attmept and successful release of Marvel Scape mimicks all the things that make Heroscape intersting, mixed with strategy and most of all fun.

i like red skull and find him useful. i stated that he has probably the best ability in the game.
the main reason i dislike spiderman is because he relies too much on his spider sense. weaker charactors from heroscape beat him plenty and flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.
the main reason i felt how i did about thanos , silver surfur and hulk is because of how easily they can incorporate into waves. i use multiple waves when i play. i like them, but i don't see much playtime in their future.
the best one to use with heroscape figures is captain america. Einar armies easilly make him the strongest hero on the board. i just dont use thos einar figures that much.
these are just my opinions. maybe someone else can get spider man to work better. i can't.

[Eclipse]

flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Wait... what?

[Lotus]

if everyone has the same oppertunity to get the best "spiderman" then everyone will. then there will be no advantage to having him because everyone else will too. then every game will be the best spider man against the best spiderman.

I must have missed the episode where there was a Rookie, Experienced and Veteran Spiderman.

Anyways, if everyone has equal access to the same figures, you think they'll take the same figures every game? While this is basically true of all Clix games, I think you'll find that is not really true of Scape. Once expansions start cropping up and I play with people with there own sets, we'll probably just draft all the time, place all the cards in a pile and then draw the ones you want. It allows for only 1 Spiderman at a time, and makes you have to think about what you are doing a bit more.

Most clix games I have played are he with the most money wins.

[Cavalier]

flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Wait... what?
What he said :confused:

if everyone has the same oppertunity to get the best "spiderman" then everyone will. then there will be no advantage to having him because everyone else will too. then every game will be the best spider man against the best spiderman.

I must have missed the episode where there was a Rookie, Experienced and Veteran Spiderman.

Anyways, if everyone has equal access to the same figures, you think they'll take the same figures every game? While this is basically true of all Clix games, I think you'll find that is not really true of Scape. Once expansions start cropping up and I play with people with there own sets, we'll probably just draft all the time, place all the cards in a pile and then draw the ones you want. It allows for only 1 Spiderman at a time, and makes you have to think about what you are doing a bit more.

Most clix games I have played are he with the most money wins.
Exactly. Being able to purchase what you want, and knowing what you are getting is one of the most amazing parts of the HS system. If you think everyone will always choose a powerhouse figure, you haven't played much 'scape with a very broad crowd.

[jcb231]

I respect your opinion about Marvelscape, but I don't see how the characters need to be upped by 7-13% to play in classic. They are balanced as is. The super-strength power is taken into account in their point cost....not all Marvel characters have it, after all. I have played many games with the figures now and have never felt they were out of whack, nor has anyone else in my group. Even the designers admit that the games are fully compatible now.

I think that you are perhaps jumping the gun on judging the game as a whole. It's just starting out....there are only ten characters. Even the classic Master Set had realitvely little synergy compared to the classic game of today with all the expansions. Give it time. I think this game has a bright future given the wealth of characters they have to pull from and the many dissatisfied Heroclix fans out there.

[Slaader]

the main reason i dislike spiderman is because he relies too much on his spider sense. weaker charactors from heroscape beat him plenty and flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Punctuation, spelling and grammar aside...

How do you figure flying characters negate his damage? Weaker characters beat him plenty?

Spider-Man has the BEST defense stats in the game.

First, you roll Attack. You need to get 1 skull.
Second, I roll Spidey-Sense. I have a 50% chance to not even need to roll Defense.
Third, if it even gets this far, I roll 4 defense.

Put Spider-Man near Raelin or some other Defense buffer and spend the game watching him dodge bullets...or zombies...or Hulk...

Spider-Man and Venom are probably the two Marvel figures that will have no problem jumping into your traditional HS game. They are cheap enough for a 500pt army, never mind the Marvel suggested 1200pt ones.

[Faustus]

Personally, Marvel has added a breath of fresh life to HeroScape for me. Not that I was getting bored with it - but I like it even more now than I did before!

What I am most impressed with is that they made some very powerful characters and have done a few things I never expected (ie, Doom can move, attack, AND use his mind control? Thanos gets to try to come back to life EACH TURN? Hulk has 11 attack? Red Skull can take a turn with anybody in LOS?) yet they still work with traditional HeroScape! My army of Soulborgs and Obsidian guards led by Dr. Doom took down the entire team of Heroes (w/ Johnny Shotgun helping them out). And it wasn't Doom who was the last standing, it was Major Q9!

I think Marvel will help lead Heroscape in new directions and provide a lot more variety and versatility, including more destructible objects and powerful heroes. Plus, for me, the heroes have a history and story that I'm familiar with.

I LOVE it!

[Sweetcurse]

I really wish you had posted this under:

Marvel First Impressions (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10070//url)

Oh, and blind purchase is EVIL. No reason why we can't have multiple versions of heroes in MS. HS is doing it with Raelin and Drake.

if everyone has the same oppertunity to get the best "spiderman" then everyone will. then there will be no advantage to having him because everyone else will too. then every game will be the best spider man against the best spiderman.

Not so, point cost is also a determinant, not just raw power. In both HC and MS, there are many times when lower point cost outweigh power. Heck, in heroclix, the best spiderman still is the cheapest. The one found in the starter set. He's not a power house but for very few points he is flavorful and capable. I would never play the strongest spidey...too expensive really. But for some games he might be the best.

[hakysak]

flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Wait... what?
What he said :confused:

if everyone has the same oppertunity to get the best "spiderman" then everyone will. then there will be no advantage to having him because everyone else will too. then every game will be the best spider man against the best spiderman.

I must have missed the episode where there was a Rookie, Experienced and Veteran Spiderman.

Anyways, if everyone has equal access to the same figures, you think they'll take the same figures every game? While this is basically true of all Clix games, I think you'll find that is not really true of Scape. Once expansions start cropping up and I play with people with there own sets, we'll probably just draft all the time, place all the cards in a pile and then draw the ones you want. It allows for only 1 Spiderman at a time, and makes you have to think about what you are doing a bit more.

Most clix games I have played are he with the most money wins.
Exactly. Being able to purchase what you want, and knowing what you are getting is one of the most amazing parts of the HS system. If you think everyone will always choose a powerhouse figure, you haven't played much 'scape with a very broad crowd.

but,see, hs has a broad field of different characters with different styles of play. that's what makes it such a good game. if they keep rereleasing the same figures over and over then the field narrows. i don't want to see that happen.

[hakysak]

flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Wait... what?


i worded that wrong. the main purpose of the spidey sense is to avoid receiving the attack and preventing another because he can move up or down elevation to put a couple of moving turns between him and the attacker and allow him to get a couple of shots in with his web. a flying figure or squad can just follow him around the board and continue to attack, most notably the setinals of jandar

[hakysak]

if everyone has the same oppertunity to get the best "spiderman" then everyone will. then there will be no advantage to having him because everyone else will too. then every game will be the best spider man against the best spiderman.

I must have missed the episode where there was a Rookie, Experienced and Veteran Spiderman.

Anyways, if everyone has equal access to the same figures, you think they'll take the same figures every game? While this is basically true of all Clix games, I think you'll find that is not really true of Scape. Once expansions start cropping up and I play with people with there own sets, we'll probably just draft all the time, place all the cards in a pile and then draw the ones you want. It allows for only 1 Spiderman at a time, and makes you have to think about what you are doing a bit more.

Most clix games I have played are he with the most money wins.

hello? that was just an example of why they shouldnt go into remaking figures all of the time. especially since the waves of marvel are so small

[hakysak]

the main reason i dislike spiderman is because he relies too much on his spider sense. weaker charactors from heroscape beat him plenty and flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Punctuation, spelling and grammar aside...

How do you figure flying characters negate his damage? Weaker characters beat him plenty?

Spider-Man has the BEST defense stats in the game.

First, you roll Attack. You need to get 1 skull.
Second, I roll Spidey-Sense. I have a 50% chance to not even need to roll Defense.
Third, if it even gets this far, I roll 4 defense.

Put Spider-Man near Raelin or some other Defense buffer and spend the game watching him dodge bullets...or zombies...or Hulk...

Spider-Man and Venom are probably the two Marvel figures that will have no problem jumping into your traditional HS game. They are cheap enough for a 500pt army, never mind the Marvel suggested 1200pt ones.

yeah i found that spidy and venom do good against hs people. but look at this
there is a 50% chance of rolling a skull on a single dice
there is a 33.3% chance of rolling a sheild

therefore on average 4 attack beats 4 defence

there are squad characters who roll 4 defence and heroes under 100 points that roll four defense. they die all the time.
there is a 50% chance of spidy dodging the hit . i don't feel like doing the math for venom.
as long as you can beat spidermans or venom's spider sense, which you have a 50-70 something % chance of doing, you can beat them.

most of the time, in a 1 on 1 fight spiderman beat the given 80 point charactor, but the 80 point characters won enough to prove to me that spiderman was just a pushover. Venom, on the other hand, took a lot of losses but kept coming out ahead. after simulating spidey and venom in several fights, venom still kept coming out ahead. he usually only had 1 or 2 life left, but he dished out more than he got.

[hakysak]

Personally, Marvel has added a breath of fresh life to HeroScape for me. Not that I was getting bored with it - but I like it even more now than I did before!

What I am most impressed with is that they made some very powerful characters and have done a few things I never expected (ie, Doom can move, attack, AND use his mind control? Thanos gets to try to come back to life EACH TURN? Hulk has 11 attack? Red Skull can take a turn with anybody in LOS?) yet they still work with traditional HeroScape! My army of Soulborgs and Obsidian guards led by Dr. Doom took down the entire team of Heroes (w/ Johnny Shotgun helping them out). And it wasn't Doom who was the last standing, it was Major Q9!

I think Marvel will help lead Heroscape in new directions and provide a lot more variety and versatility, including more destructible objects and powerful heroes. Plus, for me, the heroes have a history and story that I'm familiar with.

I LOVE it!

i didn't say marvel heroes were invincible. most of them are beatable by hs armies and heroes. just certain things about the slight differences in how each game is designed caught my attention. some things make them too powerful, mostly hulk, thanos, silver surfer, and abomination. the others go in very good and i felt little or no change was needed for the other heroes.

[Eclipse]

flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Wait... what?


i worded that wrong. the main purpose of the spidey sense is to avoid receiving the attack and preventing another because he can move up or down elevation to put a couple of moving turns between him and the attacker and allow him to get a couple of shots in with his web. a flying figure or squad can just follow him around the board and continue to attack, most notably the setinals of jandar

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

[hakysak]

flying heroes eliminated his spidy sense, making it almost useless.

Wait... what?


i worded that wrong. the main purpose of the spidey sense is to avoid receiving the attack and preventing another because he can move up or down elevation to put a couple of moving turns between him and the attacker and allow him to get a couple of shots in with his web. a flying figure or squad can just follow him around the board and continue to attack, most notably the setinals of jandar

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn. they might not do a lot of damage on their first attack, but they will kill him unless he just runs away.

[Eclipse]

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn.

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.

[Cavalier]

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn.

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.It is effective with Spidy and Venom, just like it is effective with the Ninjas of the Northwind. I agree with Eclipse, I fail to see the problems you are trying to point out.

[hakysak]

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn.

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.

i added unless he moves right after i sent that, just not in those exact words.

[hakysak]

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn.

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.It is effective with Spidy and Venom, just like it is effective with the Ninjas of the Northwind. I agree with Eclipse, I fail to see the problems you are trying to point out.

that's not a problem with the game. i just simply pointed out that spiderman's bane is flying figures. flying figures have roughly the same stats and can continue to chase and attack him. it's called a strategy.

[hakysak]

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn.

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.

what if your next turn marker's not on spiderman?

[ugly1hornedmule]

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn.

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.

what if your next turn marker's not on spiderman?What if you stop double and triple posting?

[hakysak]

You do know that all squad figures have to move before ANY of them can attack, right? If Spidey dodges, he gets out of every other Sentinel that can attack him easily.

but they can surround him again on their next turn.

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.

what if your next turn marker's not on spiderman?What if you stop double and triple posting?

i would if people would could figure out more than just pro spiderman or whoever turns and look at different situations.


spiderman=taelord
spiderman should be cheaper

[Cavalier]

What if you stop double and triple posting?

i would if people would could figure out more than just pro spiderman or whoever turns and look at different situations.


spiderman=taelord
spiderman should be cheaper
You can reply to more than one person in a post.

[hakysak]

i like you ugly1horned-something else i think

[hakysak]

What if you stop double and triple posting?

i would if people would could figure out more than just pro spiderman or whoever turns and look at different situations.


spiderman=taelord
spiderman should be cheaper
You can reply to more than one person in a post.

well, i don't do this a lot. sorry

[ugly1hornedmule]

Every figure in Heroscape has diffrent uses in diffrent situations. I have seen many high priced figures be taken out by a lone low cost figure or squad. Spider-Man just has to be used at the right times, he is less effective on flat maps, and yes he is less effective against flyers but so are a lot of other figures.

[hakysak]

Every figure in Heroscape has diffrent uses in diffrent situations. I have seen many high priced figures be taken out by a lone low cost figure or squad. Spider-Man just has to be used at the right times, he is less effective on flat maps, and yes he is less effective against flyers but so are a lot of other figures.

thank you!!!! someone who can grasp what i'm saying!!!!
i'm not trying to focus on spiderman by the way, but i mention him onse and everyone seems to stay on that topic.

god i can't spell

the spiderman=taelord thing was a joke

[Dictatorbilbo]

Every figure in Heroscape has diffrent uses in diffrent situations. I have seen many high priced figures be taken out by a lone low cost figure or squad. Spider-Man just has to be used at the right times, he is less effective on flat maps, and yes he is less effective against flyers but so are a lot of other figures.

thank you!!!! someone who can grasp what i'm saying!!!!
i'm not trying to focus on spiderman by the way, but i mention him onse and everyone seems to stay on that topic.

god i can't spell

But the situational (is that the correct word?) nature of a unit does not indicate that a unit is overpriced. If every unit was good in every situation the game would very quickly become very bland.

Could you at least capitalize the beginnings of your sentences?

[hakysak]

But the situational (is that the correct word?) nature of a unit does not indicate that a unit is overpriced. If every unit was good in every situation the game would very quickly become very bland.

Could you at least capitalize the beginnings of your sentences?

If i can remember to.

Compared to classic heroscape, I believe that most MS pieces are under priced. Their price brackets fit well within each other, with the exception of one, who is overpriced in MS because the situations that have been coming up the last two pages are almost a constant in MS. Flying figures, with range also.

Dr. Doom's "whatever power it's called 17" is heavily weakened when playing against HS figures. Now I believe that his points should remain the same in either game. I was really iffy about it, which is why I only added 5 points in my original post. He might actually need to drop some points, to about 230 when playing with HS.

Before anyone can't figure out why he's weaker its because of this: he's taking control of WEAKER figures, thus making himself weaker. The change in opponent types is also a factor that leads to my idea of point change.

[hakysak]

I respect your opinion about Marvelscape, but I don't see how the characters need to be upped by 7-13% to play in classic. They are balanced as is. The super-strength power is taken into account in their point cost....not all Marvel characters have it, after all. I have played many games with the figures now and have never felt they were out of whack, nor has anyone else in my group. Even the designers admit that the games are fully compatible now.

I think that you are perhaps jumping the gun on judging the game as a whole. It's just starting out....there are only ten characters. Even the classic Master Set had realitvely little synergy compared to the classic game of today with all the expansions. Give it time. I think this game has a bright future given the wealth of characters they have to pull from and the many dissatisfied Heroclix fans out there.

The 'super strength" was added to heroes with a movement ability; web line, super leap, and flying. When eliminating a power, like flying, you drop the figure's cost depending on their movement speed. If a figure with super strength is cornered on top of a castle , for example, then they can just jump off still. This ability reflects more heavily when playing against HS characters, and so after play testing myself I felt that that ability was not justified in their cost.

Also I looked into how hard it is to defeat a Marvel figure with weaker figures and vice versa. I looked at more than one thing to come to my opinion.

[Eclipse]

Not if you take a turn with Spiderman in between. I fail to see how it's not effective? If it was supposed to dodge the NEXT melee attack on its own, I'd wager it would allow you to move more spaces than the game's average move stat.

what if your next turn marker's not on spiderman?

Then your opponent out maneuvered you. If your opponent has put two consecutive turn markers on the Sentinels in order to chase down Spiderman, then it's your decision whether or not you should put two consecutive turn markers on Spiderman in order to avoid their assault. As you so eloquently put it:

it's called a strategy.

[jdm61802]

If i can remember to.

Compared to classic heroscape, I believe that most MS pieces are under priced. Their price brackets fit well within each other, with the exception of one, who is overpriced in MS because the situations that have been coming up the last two pages are almost a constant in MS. Flying figures, with range also.

Dr. Doom's "whatever power it's called 17" is heavily weakened when playing against HS figures. Now I believe that his points should remain the same in either game. I was really iffy about it, which is why I only added 5 points in my original post. He might actually need to drop some points, to about 230 when playing with HS.

Before anyone can't figure out why he's weaker its because of this: he's taking control of WEAKER figures, thus making himself weaker. The change in opponent types is also a factor that leads to my idea of point change.

Sir, your logic seems a bit off. Doom is not weaker because he takes over a weaker charcter. Rather, he is strengthen because he basicly gets a double turn. He moves. He attacks. He attempts "Mind Shuffle". If he succeeds, he gets to take a turn with the character he "Mind Shuffled". How does two turns make him weaker?

Logic aside, you say the Marvel figures are underpriced. Okay, lets say your right. Then if I was to play a battle between HS and MS figures, the MS figures should win most of the time. Have you attempted to prove this by doing a battle like this several times? The out come should be...

If the HS figures win the majority of the time, the MS figures are overpriced.
If the MS figures win the majority of the time, the MS figures are udnerpirced.
If the two sides win roughly equally, then the pricing is fine.
Mind you, this little experiment limits itsself to the map used, but at least it gives an actual result and not just an opinion.

By the way, I have a trial just like what I mentioned above set-up right now; MS Heroes vs HS large heroes. Unfortunately, I have to get some leason plans written before I allow myself the time to play.

[hakysak]

Then your opponent out maneuvered you. If your opponent has put two consecutive turn markers on the Sentinels in order to chase down Spiderman, then it's your decision whether or not you should put two consecutive turn markers on Spiderman in order to avoid their assault. As you so eloquently put it:

it's called a strategy.

Either way, he relies on his spidey sense to survive. Either way, he has to keep running. Either way, Flying figures are able to take him down efficiently.
I looked at ALL of this already!!

[hakysak]

Sir, your logic seems a bit off. Doom is not weaker because he takes over a weaker charcter. Rather, he is strengthen because he basicly gets a double turn. He moves. He attacks. He attempts "Mind Shuffle". If he succeeds, he gets to take a turn with the character he "Mind Shuffled". How does two turns make him weaker?


I done that trial, also. Have I repeated it enough.

The reason I say Doom is weaker in HS is because he cannot do as much damage with his power. In MS he's always taking over 200-390 point characters, on average. When playing against HS characters, he will be taking over 80-200 point heroes on average. I took how he positively and negatively interacts with other figures into effect.

[johnny139]

Well, before we continue, the creaters of the game have said time and time again that the point costs fit together perfectly, and are intended to be played together.

[hakysak]

Well, before we continue, the creaters of the game have said time and time again that the point costs fit together perfectly, and are intended to be played together.

I heard that right when it came out, but I just felt differently about certain figures and thought I'd post it.




They also said a year ago that they weren't compatible.

Taelord is still debated on his point value.

[hakysak]

and my post was also just a opinion

[Dictatorbilbo]

Sir, your logic seems a bit off. Doom is not weaker because he takes over a weaker charcter. Rather, he is strengthen because he basicly gets a double turn. He moves. He attacks. He attempts "Mind Shuffle". If he succeeds, he gets to take a turn with the character he "Mind Shuffled". How does two turns make him weaker?


I done that trial, also. Have I repeated it enough.

The reason I say Doom is weaker in HS is because he cannot do as much damage with his power. In MS he's always taking over 200-390 point characters, on average. When playing against HS characters, he will be taking over 80-200 point heroes on average. I took how he positively and negatively interacts with other figures into effect.

Many Heroscape figures are less effective against Marvel figures, and vice versa. That doesn't necessarily make their point values incorrect; It's as if you had Thorgrim, considered the fact that he's not very effective alone against swarms, and declared him overpriced. The argument doesn't really hold water.

[skyknight]

Marvelscape Sux


:lol:

[hakysak]

Many Heroscape figures are less effective against Marvel figures, and vice versa. That doesn't necessarily make their point values incorrect; It's as if you had Thorgrim, considered the fact that he's not very effective alone against swarms, and declared him overpriced. The argument doesn't really hold water.

Heroscape and Marvel are played out in different ways. By incorporating change in the system that would be permanent, like a junction of two games, then minor changes have to made to correct the imbalance of the two combined games. That is my opinion on combining the games.

I found 1, ONE, character in MS I felt was over priced. In several tests in different situations against different opponents and allies, i felt he didn't carry his weight in MS and that he did in HS. Then I said how to beat him.

The reason that Doom doesn't carry his weight all the way in HS is because one of his powers is relent on the strength of his opponent. HS opponents are weaker, making the result of his power weaker. His cost is fine, but MAY need to drop a little, to MY OPINION.

If I had posted the 8 billionth forum on how Taelord might be "overpriced in my opinion" then everyone would agree. Since one figure seems to almost everyone to be overpriced then why does everyone get weird when I talk about Marvel?

[hakysak]

Marvelscape Sux


:lol:

Skyknight, I have learned that your opinion is wrong. Just thought I'd inform you. :twisted: :lol:

[Cavalier]

Come on guys, let's just admit it, hakysak is right and all of the HS designers and playtesters are wrong. :twisted:

Marvelscape Sux


:lol:
skyknight sux

[hakysak]

Come on guys, let's just admit it, hakysak is right and all of the HS designers and playtesters are wrong. :twisted:


skyknight sux

No, I just don't understand why everyone got into such an uproar about it.

But thanks for admitting defeat. :lol:

[hakysak]

Skyknight, you don't sux. i just forgot to take it off.

[hakysak]

that didn't sound good when i read it back

[rdhight]

Sure, the power of Mind Exchange fluctuates according to the power of the heroes that Doom can target with it. So what? That's no reason to change his point cost.

The power of Jandar Dispatch fluctuates according to how many Jandar squad figures you bring along. The power of Gift of the Empress fluctuates according to how many Einar Imperium you bring along. The power of Giant Killer fluctuates according to how many huge figures your enemy included. The power of Chomp varies according to how many small or medium squad figures your enemy included.

Heroscape is drenched in units whose power varies according to what else is in your army and what's in your opponent's army, and that's as it should be. Spider-Man and Doom are two of them. It doesn't mean anyone is overcosted. It doesn't mean anyone is undercosted.

[hakysak]

just out of curiosity, how many people looked at my posts, disagreed and complained with everything i said and how it was completely wrong and did at least one of the following:
complained about the cost of ANY character
made a custom character
made a custom rule
threw an official rule out the window
made custom terrain
took it upon themselves to change, modify, or add to the game in any way

OK then. shut up. cheaters!

[jdm61802]

just out of curiosity, how many people looked at my posts, disagreed and complained with everything i said and how it was completely wrong and did at least one of the following:
complained about the cost of ANY character
made a custom character
made a custom rule
threw an official rule out the window
made custom terrain
took it upon themselves to change, modify, or add to the game in any way

OK then. shut up. cheaters!



Have not done any of the above.

[rdhight]

just out of curiosity, how many people looked at my posts, disagreed and complained with everything i said and how it was completely wrong and did at least one of the following:
complained about the cost of ANY character
made a custom character
made a custom rule
threw an official rule out the window
made custom terrain
took it upon themselves to change, modify, or add to the game in any way

OK then. shut up. cheaters!

I'm willing to house-rule on a hair trigger, but Heroscape is definitely the game I've changed the least. The only house rule at my table is that road and wallwalk tiles are identical/interchangable. If I don't want a road bonus to continue up onto the wall, I put a gap of rock in between when making the map. If that makes me a cheater who needs to shut up, so be it.

And if you think custom-makers are second-class members around here or lack credibility in some way, you're nuts!

[hakysak]

I've been playing HS for almost 3 years and never seen a need to modify anything until now. I just don't see why all these people who've been modifying the game since it came have such a problem with what I've said. I expected people to feel differently than me, but they didn't have to dump all of their hypocritical emotions on me :( Oh, well.

joke

[hakysak]

I'm willing to house-rule on a hair trigger, but Heroscape is definitely the game I've changed the least. The only house rule at my table is that road and wallwalk tiles are identical/interchangable. If I don't want a road bonus to continue up onto the wall, I put a gap of rock in between when making the map. If that makes me a cheater who needs to shut up, so be it.

And if you think custom-makers are second-class members around here or lack credibility in some way, you're nuts!

I wasn't trying to put down anybody. I just can't figure out why everyone is getting so uptight about what I said. I did nothing that no one else has done. All I did was state my opinions and why I have them.

[Eclipse]

I just can't figure out why everyone is getting so uptight about what I said. I did nothing that no one else has done. All I did was state my opinions and why I have them.

Perhaps its the fact that in a thread of 78 posts you've personally been responsible for 37 of them. Considering your total post count, that leaves you with a whopping 7 additional contributions beyond your mega whine. The fact that these 37 have been mostly opinions without much support or reasoning, poorly written, and at times, blatantly arrogant and offensive hasn't helped convince people your opinion has much weight over their own.

[Lotus]

Oh, there is a reason people make custom units and such, maybe, just maybe it is because they like the game soo much, they'd like to add a bit to it. I mean, if I played Monopoly as is all these years and really likes it, I might add a new rule or two. And since HS screams MOD ME! Why not do so?

[Grungebob]

Hey fellas, I'm about to lock this one down. I think the dog-pile on Hakysak has pretty much run it's course. There is nothing fruitful to be gained from this thread either.