Trial of Superman (custom by IAmBatman)

[GreyOwl]

Latest Version on top:

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Man%20of%20Steel%20Master%20Set/SupermanTNTrevision5.jpg

Allright, bring it on!

The Master-of-DC IAmBatman's second submission for TNT trials...Superman! All are welcome and encouraged to bring their admonitions, propositions and encouragements. Please be aware of the discussion guidelines for TNT trials.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Superman_by_IAmBatman_2.jpg

Judges status on this Card:
GreyOwl
hi1hi1hi1hi1
Johnny139


Any play-testing should only include this custom and official units or other previously appointed TNT customs. To provide a suitable and diverse proving ground, play-testing with both Classicscape and Marvelscape is recommended.

Ideas for play-tests:
1 - Use Superman one-on-one against a similary priced figure, such as Hulk.
2 - Test him on a battlefield with LOS blockers, to test out his Heat Vision.
3 - Test him against both classic HS, other official or TNT heroes, and a mix.
4 - When judging his cost, keep in mind that future customs will more than likely make use of kryptonite, although there are no TNT customs that do so currently.

Already completed play-tests:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

In case you've been in a cave for the last 70 years or so and have never heard of Superman, you can learn more about him at the DC Database Project (http://www.dcdatabaseproject.com/Superman) or at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman).

[GreyOwl]

I'll start out with my opinion on the look of the card. I think it's great and I don't really see any problems with it. :)

I have a question that's more general in nature, though. Do we have any guidelines on what to put (if anything) under the figure's name? The official cards have nothing, some customs put the real name of the hero (like this one does) and others use something different (for example, the TNT Batman says "Dark Knight").

As for the powers on Superman...Invulnerability seems like it isn't "invulnerable" enough. I don't think the power is broken or anything, but I don't see the extra 5% chance having a significant enough difference to make him seem invulnerable.

Super Breath seems cool. (pun intended ;) ).

Heat Vision. Question, if your line of sight to the target is completely blocked by another figure, does the heat vision only hurt the target and not the figure it passed through in order to get there? The same question would also apply to destructible objects, if they are blocking line of sight. How do you envision handling situations like that?

[johnny139]

Hmm... I'll probably do a test or two sometime this week against some other TNT and Classic figures, then later this week, when I get MarvelScape, I'll do a real test.

Ah... this will be fun.

I hope.

[Grungebob]

So can Superman use his breath to blow figures up and over huge walls to land on the other side unscathed? So I can use Superman to blow a friendly figure (preferably the guy with the X marker) up to the top of a nearby building? This blow ability seems to be a little off.

On invulnerable. Did you mean to say "may" or"must "?

[Eclipse]

So can Superman use his breath to blow figures up and over huge walls to land on the other side unscathed? So I can use Superman to blow a friendly figure (preferably the guy with the X marker) up to the top of a nearby building? This blow ability seems to be a little off.

On invulnerable. Did you mean to say "may" or"must "?

I've actually had my doubts on Superman since the Fly Icon was introduced. He seemed far more straight forward and clean to play before the extra abilities were added. Supes is always a tough one though. He's, at one time or another, had pretty much every single super power worth having ;)

[IAmBatman]

OK, let's see ...

I'll start out with my opinion on the look of the card. I think it's great and I don't really see any problems with it. :)

As usual, I owe a debt of gratitude to Allskulls for that one.


I have a question that's more general in nature, though. Do we have any guidelines on what to put (if anything) under the figure's name? The official cards have nothing, some customs put the real name of the hero (like this one does) and others use something different (for example, the TNT Batman says "Dark Knight").

Guidelines? No. I started adding things there first to distinguish between versions of Flash or Green Lantern (i.e. putting Barry Allen or Guy Gardner below the superhero identity), and then I thought it would be a fun little flavor thing for some characters as well, with better known nicknames.

As for the powers on Superman...Invulnerability seems like it isn't "invulnerable" enough. I don't think the power is broken or anything, but I don't see the extra 5% chance having a significant enough difference to make him seem invulnerable.

Most auto destroy or mind shackle powers require a roll of 16 or higher. Actually, let's see, 16 for Chomp, 17 for Acid Breath, 19 for KMS's mind shackle, 19 for Red Skull's Dust of Death, 20 for NGS's mind shackle, and 20 for Runa's Helm. That means if they're going against Superman, those numbers have to be 17, 18, 20, 20, 21, or 21. I don't want to make Superman invinsible or broken or completely immune to autokills (as that'd take out a lot of fun), but when you're dealing with required rolls that high, being able to subtract one can make a HUGE difference, IMO.

Heat Vision. Question, if your line of sight to the target is completely blocked by another figure, does the heat vision only hurt the target and not the figure it passed through in order to get there? The same question would also apply to destructible objects, if they are blocking line of sight. How do you envision handling situations like that?

Yeah, I know it seems a little weird gameplay wise. The figure thing won't come up a whole lot unless he goes up against Nilfheim. Most figures aren't big enough to completely block other figures. I wanted a way to represent X-Ray vision and it really didn't apply to regular attacks at all. But you're right that it doesn't really make sense for his Heat Vision to go through things. If you guys agree, I'm willing to axe that part of the power.

So can Superman use his breath to blow figures up and over huge walls to land on the other side unscathed? So I can use Superman to blow a friendly figure (preferably the guy with the X marker) up to the top of a nearby building? This blow ability seems to be a little off.

I think I need to change it to small or medium "enemy" figures. Superman really shouldn't be using his breath on friendly figures at all.

On invulnerable. Did you mean to say "may" or"must "?

I meant may. Some D20 based powers from allies might have a *good* effect on Superman. I don't want his invulnerability to stop him from enjoying the full effect of Kelda's healing power, for instance.

I've actually had my doubts on Superman since the Fly Icon was introduced. He seemed far more straight forward and clean to play before the extra abilities were added. Supes is always a tough one though. He's, at one time or another, had pretty much every single super power worth having ;)

Yeah, but isn't the Super Breath power fun? Also, it seems like if he's going to be up in the same cost area as Hulk (which I believe he should be) he needs more than just a single attack per turn - so I think the Super Breath is an important addition for that reason - much like Hulk needs his Stomp to be worth his points.[/i]

[Penitus]

What? No X-Ray vision to see your opponent's order markers??

[IAmBatman]

What? No X-Ray vision to see your opponent's order markers??

You know, that's a use for X-Ray Vision I hadn't thought of ...

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

What? No X-Ray vision to see your opponent's order markers??You could always make your own version of Superman to be TNT'd. :wink:

As for this one, good job. I can't see any intial wording issues. For Super Breath maybe you should make it so that if Superman blows an enemy of a cliff they take some damage.

[Eclipse]

What? No X-Ray vision to see your opponent's order markers??

You know, that's a use for X-Ray Vision I hadn't thought of ...

X-Ray vision allows him to see positioning, but to my knowledge it hasn't ever allowed him to read intentions or thoughts, which is more of what the order markers represent. The X-Ray Vision was rolled into the Heat Vision, where you can't block LoS. Perhaps it needs to be added to the power somehow?

[Grungebob]

So can Superman use his breath to blow figures up and over huge walls to land on the other side unscathed? So I can use Superman to blow a friendly figure (preferably the guy with the X marker) up to the top of a nearby building? This blow ability seems to be a little off.

I think I need to change it to small or medium "enemy" figures. Superman really shouldn't be using his breath on friendly figures at all.
So are you planning on allowing him to blow figures (small or medium) up and over 45 level high castle walls to land safely on the other side as I questioned? If so, I think that's just wierd.

[IAmBatman]

What? No X-Ray vision to see your opponent's order markers??

You know, that's a use for X-Ray Vision I hadn't thought of ...

X-Ray vision allows him to see positioning, but to my knowledge it hasn't ever allowed him to read intentions or thoughts, which is more of what the order markers represent. The X-Ray Vision was rolled into the Heat Vision, where you can't block LoS. Perhaps it needs to be added to the power somehow?

I'm not sure if I understand what you're suggesting be added here ... just X-Ray added to the name, or what?

[allskulls]

I think the X-Ray vision is not needed here. It really does not translate well to Heroscape. Just think of the ways he actually uses it. Never does he look through something then magically phase his heat beam through that something. I'm sure with the right writer he could do that but is that seen at all or often enough in the comics to justify him having the ability to do it every time he takes a turn?

Maybe his heat vision can cancel all defense bonuses. No height advantage, glyph bonus, defense aura, etc.

[IAmBatman]

So can Superman use his breath to blow figures up and over huge walls to land on the other side unscathed? So I can use Superman to blow a friendly figure (preferably the guy with the X marker) up to the top of a nearby building? This blow ability seems to be a little off.

I think I need to change it to small or medium "enemy" figures. Superman really shouldn't be using his breath on friendly figures at all.
So are you planning on allowing him to blow figures (small or medium) up and over 45 level high castle walls to land safely on the other side as I questioned? If so, I think that's just wierd.

OK, I think I finally realized what you're getting at here. There's nothing to account for falling damage. That is a problem. But I really don't want this attack to be as much about falling damage as about letting Supes disengage and maybe remove an order marker. That said, I have two options - either shorten the number of different roll results from a very wordy 3 to 2, and add a roll for damage, or put in a stipulation that figures must land on the same level as they started on (not sure on official sounding wording for that). I was trying to avoid making just another throw power.

[IAmBatman]

I think the X-Ray vision is not needed here. It really does not translate well to Heroscape. Just think of the ways he actually uses it. Never does he look through something then magically phase his heat beam through that something. I'm sure with the right writer he could do that but is that seen at all or often enough in the comics to justify him having the ability to do it every time he takes a turn?

Maybe his heat vision can cancel all defense bonuses. No height advantage, glyph bonus, defense aura, etc.

I think it'd be a bit overpowered if it could do all of that. I'm fine with just taking it out - I think he's still worth his points.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Heat Vision. Question, if your line of sight to the target is completely blocked by another figure, does the heat vision only hurt the target and not the figure it passed through in order to get there? The same question would also apply to destructible objects, if they are blocking line of sight. How do you envision handling situations like that?You could say:

"Any figure or destructable object directly between Superman and the targeted figure is also affected by Heat Vision Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure roll defense seperately."

Yea I know there is not that much room on the card and it will probably not fit.

[Eclipse]

So can Superman use his breath to blow figures up and over huge walls to land on the other side unscathed? So I can use Superman to blow a friendly figure (preferably the guy with the X marker) up to the top of a nearby building? This blow ability seems to be a little off.

I think I need to change it to small or medium "enemy" figures. Superman really shouldn't be using his breath on friendly figures at all.
So are you planning on allowing him to blow figures (small or medium) up and over 45 level high castle walls to land safely on the other side as I questioned? If so, I think that's just wierd.

OK, I think I finally realized what you're getting at here. There's nothing to account for falling damage. That is a problem. But I really don't want this attack to be as much about falling damage as about letting Supes disengage and maybe remove an order marker. That said, I have two options - either shorten the number of different roll results from a very wordy 3 to 2, and add a roll for damage, or put in a stipulation that figures must land on the same level as they started on (not sure on official sounding wording for that). I was trying to avoid making just another throw power.

Actually, in all honesty, Superman might really fit well WITH a throw power...

[allskulls]

I was trying to avoid making just another throw power.
That actually sounds good. Super Breath Throw will work with the destructable objects we're making :wink:

It will still be its own distinct power with the removing an order marker thing.

EDIT: Eclipse, you have a good mind :wink:

[IAmBatman]

He'd fit well with a Carry power too, but aren't you the advocate of not getting too carried away with how many powers we give someone? :D

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I was trying to avoid making just another throw power.
That actually sounds good. Super Breath Throw will work with the destructable objects we're making :wink:

It will still be its own distinct power with the removing an order marker thing.Yea but drop the "Throw" at the end of Super Breath sounds bad. In the destructable objects section we should just list all "Throw" powers that can be used on destructable objects. Besides he has SuperStrength, so he won't need Super Breath Throw. :wink:

[IAmBatman]

ok, if I *do* make it basically a throw power (though I dislike the name "Super Breath Throw" as it personifies breath a bit too much for my taste) the rolls are going to need to be changed. Should I go standard Jotun with this except add in the order marker removal? And which roll should the order marker removal go on? The initial one where he "throws" them or the roll for damage?

edit: Good point when it comes to destructible objects, Hi. Superman is strong enough to chuck stuff all day.

[allskulls]

ok, if I *do* make it basically a throw power (though I dislike the name "Super Breath Throw" as it personifies breath a bit too much for my taste) the rolls are going to need to be changed. Should I go standard Jotun with this except add in the order marker removal? And which roll should the order marker removal go on? The initial one where he "throws" them or the roll for damage?

edit: Good point when it comes to destructible objects, Hi. Superman is strong enough to chuck stuff all day.
The roll for damage should be for marker removal (it could be an either/or thing). Yes, Superstrength allows a throw but not from range :wink:

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

ok, if I *do* make it basically a throw power (though I dislike the name "Super Breath Throw" as it personifies breath a bit too much for my taste) the rolls are going to need to be changed. Should I go standard Jotun with this except add in the order marker removal? And which roll should the order marker removal go on? The initial one where he "throws" them or the roll for damage?

edit: Good point when it comes to destructible objects, Hi. Superman is strong enough to chuck stuff all day.
The roll for damage should be for marker removal (it could be an either/or thing). Yes, Superstrength allows a throw but not from range :wink:Super breath only works with adjacent figures. :wink:

[IAmBatman]

Superman doesn't need a throw from range either - he's just not that type of guy.
So, skulls, are you saying that the roll for damage would be a roll for damage AND order marker removal? Or just for one or the other? Because I think that Grungebob is saying falling damage needs to be accounted for somehow, so I'd think that it'd have to be both. A roll of 14 seems a bit low for order marker removal, but I guess it's following a roll of 11 (or something like that, I'm forgetting Jotun's exact numbers) so it's not as bad as it could be.

[GreyOwl]

I like the idea of having Heat Vision burn through all intermediate targets. Sort of like Mimring's Fie Line, but it would also cause damage to destructible objects. Maybe the damage would be reduced for each successive figure, too. Attack 4 on the first things it hits, attack 3 on the second, etc. up to it's max range. In fact, that's exactly what I did on my Cyclops custom, so maybe it should be somewhat different. :? Hmmm...not sure what the best way to do it is.

[IAmBatman]

I think the Heat Vision needs to stay simple. It's never been something Superman has used to do an incredible amount of damage, ala Cyclops. It's kind of just something he has. So I think a simple, affects one figure at a time, ranged attack works all right for it. To alleviate the X-Ray weirdness, I'm going to eliminate the part about LOS not being needed in the next incarnation (once I figure out how Super Breath needs to work).
If there's a place for more advanced/involved versions of this type of vision, well, there are plenty of Cyclops cards out there.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

After moving and before attacking, choose one small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Jotun. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher you may throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of Jotun. The figure must land within clear sight of Jotun. After the figure is placed roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Jotun or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Now here's what Super Breath would be, translated to a throw and keeping the rolls as they were.:

After moving and before attacking, choose one opponents' small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll 6-10 you may place the figure within 2 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 11-15 you may place the figure within 3 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 16-20 you may place the figure within 4 spaces of Superman and remove any order marker from its card.
The blown figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. After the figure is placed roll the 20-sided die for blowing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the blown figure recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is blown onto a level higher than the height of Superman, onto water, or if the figure has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for blowing damage. The blown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

[johnny139]

Alright, just did a playtest with Superman... and I was pleasantly surprised! It was him alone vs. 2 Squads of Roman Legionnaires, 2 Squads of Roman Archers, Marcus, Me-Burq-Sa, and Guily McCreech. Near the start of the match, I got the Archers into position, and Me-Burq-Sa on a hill. Superman came into range, shot with his Heat Vision. No dice. Me-Burq-Sa failed to Paralyze, and just shot. Once again, no dice.

In a turn or two the horse-man was dead, and the Roman Archers (Squad 1) surrounded Supes on the same level. ARROW VOLLEY... did no damage. Bad luck, I suppose. So one was blown into a river, and another was killed. Next turn, the Roman Legionnaires that had been bonding with Superman walked up to plate - I had given up on the Archers, one being in a river and one dead, so he super-breathed one into a snow bank. Tried to kill a Legionnaire, and, as luck may have it, he failed! Sturdy shields.

Next turn started withthe Legionnaires surrounding him and... doing 1 damage. In four attacks. One was pushed into molten lava, and another was just killed. Next turn, they tried again, and... did no damage. One was pushed into the river, one was killed.

The next round, things started to look up. Superman flew in and engaged a cluster of Romans and Marcus, killing the one he was adjacent to. They got height advantage, and with superb luck, a Roman rolled all 4 skulls, and Superman no defense. So he was half dead by then. Alas, one was pushed back, and Marcus was damaged by a super punch, leaving him with 1 life. He disengaged and survived with some luck, while the other three surrounded Big Blue. One damage. Marcus was blown onto a lava space, and one of them was killed. But on the final Order Marker of the round... Marcus stood behind a pair of Legionnaires, who killed Superman!

The final standings were...

Superman - 128 Points killed, but closer to 180 if you count displacing them for easy pickings later.
Romans - 380 Points killed, but due to some lucky rolls.

At the start of the match, I thought it would be a Roman Slaughter. I was wrong. Almost 90 points weren't even needed!

[IAmBatman]

After moving and before attacking, choose one opponents' small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll 6-10 you may place the figure within 2 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 11-15 you may place the figure within 3 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 16-20 you may place the figure within 4 spaces of Superman and remove any order marker from its card.
The blown figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. After the figure is placed roll the 20-sided die for blowing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the blown figure recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is blown onto a level higher than the height of Superman, onto water, or if the figure has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for blowing damage. The blown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Were I to do that I think the roll options would need to be shortened, as it'd be a massively wordy power in this version.
Also, I don't think I'd want my name on a custom that has the phrases "blown figure" and "blowing damage" in it. :D

[Firemaster]

After moving and before attacking, choose one opponents' small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll 6-10 you may place the figure within 2 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 11-15 you may place the figure within 3 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 16-20 you may place the figure within 4 spaces of Superman and remove any order marker from its card.
The blown figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. After the figure is placed roll the 20-sided die for blowing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the blown figure recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is blown onto a level higher than the height of Superman, onto water, or if the figure has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for blowing damage. The blown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Were I to do that I think the roll options would need to be shortened, as it'd be a massively wordy power in this version.
Also, I don't think I'd want my name on a custom that has the phrases "blown figure" and "blowing damage" in it. :D

At least it's better than 'damage from being blown'.

[Grungebob]

After moving and before attacking, choose one opponents' small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll 6-10 you may place the figure within 2 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 11-15 you may place the figure within 3 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 16-20 you may place the figure within 4 spaces of Superman and remove any order marker from its card.
The blown figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. After the figure is placed roll the 20-sided die for blowing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the blown figure recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is blown onto a level higher than the height of Superman, onto water, or if the figure has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for blowing damage. The blown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Were I to do that I think the roll options would need to be shortened, as it'd be a massively wordy power in this version.
Also, I don't think I'd want my name on a custom that has the phrases "blown figure" and "blowing damage" in it. :DActually I like it the way hi1 has it!! Good job!

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

After moving and before attacking, choose one opponents' small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll 6-10 you may place the figure within 2 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 11-15 you may place the figure within 3 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 16-20 you may place the figure within 4 spaces of Superman and remove any order marker from its card.
The blown figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. After the figure is placed roll the 20-sided die for blowing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the blown figure recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is blown onto a level higher than the height of Superman, onto water, or if the figure has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for blowing damage. The blown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Were I to do that I think the roll options would need to be shortened, as it'd be a massively wordy power in this version.
Also, I don't think I'd want my name on a custom that has the phrases "blown figure" and "blowing damage" in it. :D :rofl:
Yea I know, but its not really "throwing" damage or a "thrown" figure. Geeze get your head out of the gutter.

[IAmBatman]

Clearly we need a synonym for "blown" and "blowing" here ... I blame the media and the corruption of our youth. :D

[Eclipse]

He'd fit well with a Carry power too, but aren't you the advocate of not getting too carried away with how many powers we give someone? :D

Yes, but then again, Superman has had almost every single superpower worth having at one point or another in his career, which makes him an exceedingly difficult character to put into games. I really think they had the right idea in Superman Returns (just this idea, the rest of the game was garbage), in making him completely invincible and giving the city a life bar.

That said, I think the important thing, above all else is making sure he fights like Superman. Part of the problem is that Superman has a lot of Deus Ex Machina powers. Stuff he pulls out of nowhere to save the day that he never really uses in combat all that often. Which powers are just on his stat sheet, and which powers do you really expect to see him use in a battle?

Personally, I always see him as a very pure melee fighter. He has his heat vision that he uses when someone is out of his reach, but for the most part, it's all about the heavy punches in close quarters blows and throwing guys through walls.

Another thought on making him worth his points. Obviously, the fear is that with just a single, really strong melee attack he's going to lose out to squads. What about something like a non-melee only version of dismiss the rabble? Give him 2-3 extra defense against squads, always. Call it bulletproof or Invulnerable or something. Then he can take fire from the thugs without much worry, while not being completely unbeatable by a good strong hero.

[NecroBlade]

My comments...

...I like Invulnerability, simple but effective.

Super Breath just seems like a silly name for a power, IMO.

And Heat Vision is neat, but it seems like it should hit everything in the line. Though there are obviously power/wording space issues, there.

Over all, I like this card.

[yagyuninja]

Yes, but then again, Superman has had almost every single superpower worth having at one point or another in his career, which makes him an exceedingly difficult character to put into games. I really think they had the right idea in Superman Returns (just this idea, the rest of the game was garbage), in making him completely invincible and giving the city a life bar.

That was a brilliant move. Maybe you could do something like that in scape, too. Something like "If Superman is the only figure you control, you lose" to represent that Superman can't be defeated himself per say, but if you kill his friends, you've beat him.

Personally, I always see him as a very pure melee fighter. He has his heat vision that he uses when someone is out of his reach, but for the most part, it's all about the heavy punches in close quarters blows and throwing guys through walls.

Me too. That's why I like him...he usually just goes up and punches the bad guy.

Another thought on making him worth his points. Obviously, the fear is that with just a single, really strong melee attack he's going to lose out to squads. What about something like a non-melee only version of dismiss the rabble? Give him 2-3 extra defense against squads, always. Call it bulletproof or Invulnerable or something. Then he can take fire from the thugs without much worry, while not being completely unbeatable by a good strong hero.

Or bonus shields against folks without superstrength, like he's a door. :)


I realize that I'm basically talking about a whole new card. Iambatman, your card is awesome, I just think I might make one that focuses on different aspects of the guy.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Yes, but then again, Superman has had almost every single superpower worth having at one point or another in his career, which makes him an exceedingly difficult character to put into games. I really think they had the right idea in Superman Returns (just this idea, the rest of the game was garbage), in making him completely invincible and giving the city a life bar.

That was a brilliant move. Maybe you could do something like that in scape, too. Something like "If Superman is the only figure you control, you lose" to represent that Superman can't be defeated himself per say, but if you kill his friends, you've beat him.Can't do that, it makes the game broken.

Personally, I always see him as a very pure melee fighter. He has his heat vision that he uses when someone is out of his reach, but for the most part, it's all about the heavy punches in close quarters blows and throwing guys through walls.

Me too. That's why I like him...he usually just goes up and punches the bad guy.

Another thought on making him worth his points. Obviously, the fear is that with just a single, really strong melee attack he's going to lose out to squads. What about something like a non-melee only version of dismiss the rabble? Give him 2-3 extra defense against squads, always. Call it bulletproof or Invulnerable or something. Then he can take fire from the thugs without much worry, while not being completely unbeatable by a good strong hero.

Or bonus shields against folks without superstrength, like he's a door. :)


I realize that I'm basically talking about a whole new card. Iambatman, your card is awesome, I just think I might make one that focuses on different aspects of the guy.Yea both you and Eclipse are talking about totally different cards. If the case becomes that Superman needs a total re-vamp we will drop the trial and let IAmBatman fix it then submit it again, but I don't think it will come to this. In the mean time, go ahead and make yourself one, then submit it for TNT so we can all use it :wink: .


And as of now my proposed changes would be:

Range 7. Attack 4. Superman does not need clear sight to use his Heat Vision Special Attack. Any figure or destructable object directly between Superman and the targeted figure is also affected by Heat Vision Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure roll defense seperately.
After moving and before attacking, choose one opponents' small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll 6-10 you may place the figure within 2 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 11-15 you may place the figure within 3 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 16-20 you may place the figure within 4 spaces of Superman and remove any order marker from its card.
The blown figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. After the figure is placed roll the 20-sided die for blowing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the blown figure recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is blown onto a level higher than the height of Superman, onto water, or if the figure has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for blowing damage. The blown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

[IAmBatman]

I think Superman is iconic enough that several versions of him (by different creators) would be a great thing to have. This is my version, though, and these are the powers we've got to work with (unless, for some reason, you guys think they totally don't work for him thematically). He's got a pretty large grab bag to work with, but I'd like to think the ones I've chosen are fun and flavorful, and even, dare I say it, fairly representative.
And, Hi, I like your wording changes. However, I'm very doubtful that they will fit on the card ... I'll see what I can do, though. New version coming today.

[IAmBatman]

OK, it was a tight squeeze, and, unfortunately, I had to lose the much nicer looking bullet points, but here's the latest ...

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/SupermanTNTrevision1.jpg

[yagyuninja]

Yes, but then again, Superman has had almost every single superpower worth having at one point or another in his career, which makes him an exceedingly difficult character to put into games. I really think they had the right idea in Superman Returns (just this idea, the rest of the game was garbage), in making him completely invincible and giving the city a life bar.

That was a brilliant move. Maybe you could do something like that in scape, too. Something like "If Superman is the only figure you control, you lose" to represent that Superman can't be defeated himself per say, but if you kill his friends, you've beat him.Can't do that, it makes the game broken.

I suppose it could, I didn't think about it for too long. At the very least, it could make for a cool scenario! :)

[IAmBatman]

I think Superman having to rescue other figures in order to win would be a pretty good scenario, yeah. Maybe give him the carry power just for the game and make him carry people away from a volcano before it erupts, with his enemies trying to stop him so their dastardly plans can be fullfilled.

[NecroBlade]

Glad it fit, but now the "directly between" bit has me worried. What is "directly between"? There are bound to be some hexes LOS just barely passes through and others it passes halfway through. In the end, I think in the interest of saving space and sanity, the original, simple, "No LOS needed" version is best.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm, you're right, directly between is pretty vague. This is what I get for trying to appease you all. :D I'm still thinking just making it a bland, regular old range 7. attack 4. special attack with no description beyond that is the best fix.

[Eclipse]

I think Superman having to rescue other figures in order to win would be a pretty good scenario, yeah. Maybe give him the carry power just for the game and make him carry people away from a volcano before it erupts, with his enemies trying to stop him so their dastardly plans can be fullfilled.

There's a scenario using the yellow glyphs somewhat like this in the Masterset. It's certainly possible to make a scenario like this without him having the true carry ability.

And the "city life bar" thing shouldn't be included in Heroscape. I just thought it was a neat idea in another game.

[GreyOwl]

If you want to make heat vision different from just a regular ranged attack, maybe you could work the "heat" part into its effect somehow. Granted, I don't know how you'd do that, but it's just an idea. :)

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Nice custom Batman :D

I especially like the Invulnerability power as well. Excellent representation as this is the way auto-kills occur.

I agree with the name Super Breath sounding not quite right. It sort of belongs on a hero that might go by the name of Listerine-man or Minty-Mentos :wink:
What about something simple like Gust, Wind Wave, wind tunnel, force air, Gale force, exhale or Kryptonian Wind????

With Heat Ray, can he target a model 7 hexes away and then roll dice for each model in that line of fire aka Mimring's fireline ability?? Because if that's the case (which I believe it is) that makes for a nice ability as well.

He looks great Batman! Fantastic work.

[IAmBatman]

I suppose the Heat Vision attack could be reworked to be like Fireline. I'm not sure if a ranged attack that powerful really represents Superman, though, but now that I think about it, that's sort of what the wording is implying, isn't it? (If that's the case, it really should have the same wording as Fireline too ...).
Some interesting ideas for Super Breath renames, Boromir - though Kryptonian Wind sounds like it might come out, you know, the other end ... :D
Hmm ... all the suggestions are decent ideas, but I'm not sure any feel just right yet ...

[GreyOwl]

I don't see a problem with the name "Super Breath". That is what it's called in the comics after all, so I don't see a need to rename it.

As for heat vision, it would be nice if there was a way to make it more than just a ranged attack without making it ultra-powerful (like Fireline). In some of the cartoons, they depict it as knocking the opponent back, especially when used against very powerful characters like Darkseid. But that effect kind of already covered by your Super Breath power. The heat could burn them making them unable to attack for a while, but that's also kind of covered by Super Breath and how it can remove order markers. How about if heat vision causes at least one wound, you roll the 20-sided die, and if you roll above some number the target gets a penalty to their attack and/or defense for the rest of the round (due to burns)?

[IAmBatman]

I dunno, that sounds kinda complex. I don't see why it can't be a simple he blasts people at range attack. The no LOS was a nice bit to give it a bit more flavor, but I'm not sure it works without putting in a lot of extras.

[GreyOwl]

I dunno, that sounds kinda complex. I don't see why it can't be a simple he blasts people at range attack. The no LOS was a nice bit to give it a bit more flavor, but I'm not sure it works without putting in a lot of extras.

Oh, no reason at all that it can't be a simple ranged attack. I thought you were looking for something different, that's all. Simple is good, too. :)

[Eclipse]

I dunno, that sounds kinda complex. I don't see why it can't be a simple he blasts people at range attack. The no LOS was a nice bit to give it a bit more flavor, but I'm not sure it works without putting in a lot of extras.

Simple is definitely better in this case. Supes's ranged abilities aren't really a focus. More of a minor option when he needs it. I can't say I've EVER seen him use it against multiple foes at once for that matter.

[IAmBatman]

I dunno, that sounds kinda complex. I don't see why it can't be a simple he blasts people at range attack. The no LOS was a nice bit to give it a bit more flavor, but I'm not sure it works without putting in a lot of extras.

Simple is definitely better in this case. Supes's ranged abilities aren't really a focus. More of a minor option when he needs it. I can't say I've EVER seen him use it against multiple foes at once for that matter.

I agree. I only went with the current version as I thought it would allow the no LOS to be more playable. But if this one is going to need to turn into Fireline to work, I'd rather just go with it being a vanilla ranged attack.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

My wording was just to appease some of the others who thought it could hit a figure in front of another figure, or a figure behind a destructable object. It's fine as just no LOS needed, for me.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Super Breath is fine, I was just trying to offer some more dynamic alternatives ;) But yes Kryptonian Wind does sound a little funny now that I think of it.

In regards to Heat Vision, I agree that thematically (although being a nice ability) if it's like fireline (which is what the wording implies at the moment) it doesn't fit.

Maybe there needs to be a designation that any destructable terrain that is in the way is also targetted, but you cannot target through other figures. Ie, water it down a bit to x-ray vision through terrain and objects, not people. Then I think it would be both thematic and effective.

Sorry to cause confusion.
Cheers,
Ben.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I like that. He has to blow through a wall to get to the figure with his heat vision. So just say "Any destructable object directly between Superman and the targeted figure..."

[IAmBatman]

Actually, given how high he can fly, he could theoretically see over most structures/figures too. Since he'd be firing from on high, he'd definitely have no problem picking out a single figure with his heat vision.
But, yeah, maybe keeping in the destructible objects bit makes sense.

[GreyOwl]

Actually, given how high he can fly, he could theoretically see over most structures/figures too. Since he'd be firing from on high, he'd definitely have no problem picking out a single figure with his heat vision.

I didn't think of it that way. In that case, I think it would even be fine the way you originally had it. No LOS needed, and that's it.

[rdhight]

I suppose the Heat Vision attack could be reworked to be like Fireline. I'm not sure if a ranged attack that powerful really represents Superman, though, but now that I think about it, that's sort of what the wording is implying, isn't it? (If that's the case, it really should have the same wording as Fireline too ...).
Some interesting ideas for Super Breath renames, Boromir - though Kryptonian Wind sounds like it might come out, you know, the other end ... :D
Hmm ... all the suggestions are decent ideas, but I'm not sure any feel just right yet ...

Fireline heat rays are an interesting idea. Maybe make it attack 3, range 6 spaces in a straight line, hit all figures on those spaces, no line of sight required? That way, the X-ray aspect would still be there, but it wouldn't be insanely powerful.

I agree that the "elevator" aspect of super breath seems off. What if, instead of placing the figure on any empty space, he just plain moved the figure, counting for its movement as if it were walking? He could have a result with no movement, one with a static move of 2-3, and one with a static move of 3-5. That way, he could blow someone horizontally, off the edge of a cliff, or slightly upward, but he couldn't blow him to the top of an obstruction that that figure would be unable to climb.

That way, an opponent could engage Superman with his back to a wall, knowing that he was braced and probably wouldn't get moved out of engagement.

As for throwing... I think we should just make "throwable objects" that have their own rule saying anyone with superstrength can throw them, and not have to put a wordy throw power on every superhero that should be able to chuck a car at someone. Otherwise, we'll run into problems with Hulk-compatibility, since he doesn't have Throw. Carry, I think, would be much better for him than Throw.

And there's a little typo in there-- "if you roll a 11-15."

[johnny139]

I think it would be best with plain ol' "No LOS needed" Heat Vision, or no additional powers at all. Superman isn't the type to fly around and shoot through rows of people, he flies in, blasts a guy, then gives him a nice good sock to the face. No pansy run-and-gun for the big guy.

And Super Breath would be good if you said Move instead of Place, thematically and game-play wise.

[GreyOwl]

So are we waiting on a revision to the card, or is it ready to playtest?

[Doc_Savage]

My thoughts on Superman:

Invulnerable - good

Super Breath - how about:

After moving and before attacking, you may choose one opponents' small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll 6-10 place the figure within 2 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 11-15 place the figure within 3 spaces of Superman.
-If you roll 16-20 place the figure within 4 spaces of Superman and remove all order markers from its card.
The chosen figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. If the chosen figure is placed on a space 10 levels lower than Superman, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is placed onto water, has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for damage. The chosen figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

[IAmBatman]

I'll put up a revision tonight. Unless there are any severe objections, I'm moving Heat Vision back to the plain old range 7 attack 4 no LOS needed. I'm not 100% sure how I'm going to alter Super Breath, but I'll pick through this thread with a fine tooth comb to decide.

edit: Not bad ideas, Doc, but 2 auto damage on a 16 roll seems like a lot for what's essentially really strong breath - I think it might make him worth more than his cost right now. Also, the line about the roll for damage doesn't make sense in this version, as you wouldn't actually be rolling for damage.

[allskulls]

I'll put up a revision tonight. Unless there are any severe objections, I'm moving Heat Vision back to the plain old range 7 attack 4 no LOS needed.
I severely object!!!

Not really, but Supes really doesn't need the no LOS thing. I still think a "no bonuses to defense" would work better. Would really come into play when figures are hiding in the jungle :D

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Look forward to the new card,... so we can rip the new wording to shreds and force you to make another one :twisted: .

[IAmBatman]

I'll put up a revision tonight. Unless there are any severe objections, I'm moving Heat Vision back to the plain old range 7 attack 4 no LOS needed.
I severely object!!!

Not really, but Supes really doesn't need the no LOS thing. I still think a "no bonuses to defense" would work better. Would really come into play when figures are hiding in the jungle :D

That sounds like something that would really cause a lot of confusion in terms of what bonuses are (not an official Hasbro term), what all that involves, etc. I'd like to keep the power as simple as I can, so it doesn't end up being another FAQ debacle. :P

[allskulls]

I'll put up a revision tonight. Unless there are any severe objections, I'm moving Heat Vision back to the plain old range 7 attack 4 no LOS needed.
I severely object!!!

Not really, but Supes really doesn't need the no LOS thing. I still think a "no bonuses to defense" would work better. Would really come into play when figures are hiding in the jungle :D

That sounds like something that would really cause a lot of confusion in terms of what bonuses are (not an official Hasbro term), what all that involves, etc. I'd like to keep the power as simple as I can, so it doesn't end up being another FAQ debacle. :P
"Figures rolling defense dice against Supeman's Heat Vision Special attack never rolls more defense dice than their printed defense value."

Something like that :D

[IAmBatman]

That seems way more powerful than the no LOS, though. And thematically, it confuses me. Why would his Heat Vision be able to cancel out, for instance, Raelin's aura?

[allskulls]

That seems way more powerful than the no LOS, though. And thematically, it confuses me. Why would his Heat Vision be able to cancel out, for instance, Raelin's aura?
Don't you know who he is, he's the **** Superman!

I think it's thematically sound considering the official supers thematic reasoning. And it is not at all more powerful. Imagine Supes in a place where his enemies will need multiple turns to get to but he could shoot them freely then move when they come into range. That takes away from his theme...he is not supposed to be a turtling type of figure. I foresee many complaints from the playtest reports.

I used to run a Heroclix campaign where all the characters could level up and gain more character specific powers. One power I gave Magneto was the ability to target other characters through blocking terrain. When he finally leveled up and had a chance to use it, we all looked at the situation and decided it was broken. That was on a flat map. THe things you could build in Heroscape could grant Superman the power of untouchability. One thing I really hated about Heroclix was big powerful heavy hitters like Superman hiding behind smaller figures then peeking out to attack and running again. Not at all thematic. The No LOS ability is going to kill his theme.

But I really don't severely object :wink:

[IAmBatman]

Those are good points about theme. I'm still not sure if I'm all about giving him the power to nullify bonuses from glyphs, Raelin, Captain America, Finn (and Finn's spirit), height, jungle terrain, Sparticus, and any others I'm forgetting. That seems like an awful lot for an already powerful (at 4) ranged attack.
I'm definitely not in favor of Superman turtling, though, so I'm leaning more toward making it a plain old range 7, attack 4 power.
But, maybe to represent his eagle eyes (telescopic vision, x-ray vision) and his flying ability, the power could just be something that cut through any defensive bonuses from terrain (so jungle and height wouldn't help figures, but Raelin, Cap, Finn, and Sparticus would still be in). What do you think?

[rdhight]

You probably need to list that it denies dice from "height advantage, extreme height advantage, terrain, or objects." (Destructible objects that grant dice might come out later, and even the trees might be considered objects as distinct from terrain tiles.)

Also, you need to establish whether this dice denial can punch through special abilities that grant dice based on terrain types, such as road strength, snow strength, and water suits.

[NecroBlade]

Why not just "Defending figures never receive additional dice or automatic shields for height advantage, glyphs, or any special powers on any army card."?

[IAmBatman]

If I were going to do that, I'd just go with this: "Figures rolling defense dice against Supeman's Heat Vision Special attack never rolls more defense dice than their printed defense value."
And auto shields? We're cancelling those out now too? I guess I just don't get where you guys are getting the view that his Heat Vision should be this powerful. Maybe I'll take that line and reduce the attack to 3, though. Thoughts on that?

[Eclipse]

I personally just liked it better as a weak option for when you can't quite get in range. It doesn't really need to be anything else.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think what's bothering people about that is it seems kind of lame to have a special attack with just the range and attack numbers printed under it and nothing else. Like there's nothing to make the special attack really *special* you know?
That said, I'm in agreement that I don't want it to become anything super powerful. Superman's a brawler and his heat vision should be something he uses before he's close enough to use his fists - not something he's going to rely on to shoot and run people with. In fact, depending on the figure he's attacking, a ranged attack of 4 that bypasses so many defensive bonuses could become more useful than his melee attack in many, many situations - and I want to avoid that.

[NecroBlade]

I was just trying to provide a simpler version of what rdhight said. IMHO, auto shields are like getting +3 defence dice, so they should be canceled, too. If you were going in that direction...but I think the original still does it best. A simple, quick shot before Superman begins the fist-pounding.

[IAmBatman]

What are you considering the original in this case? The Range 7. Attack 4. with no text underneath? Or the same, but with the no LOS stipulation (which brings up turtling concerns)?

[Lotus]

If you are afraid to use the no LOS, how about using "May target Gray hit zones." Yeah, it doesn't always make the most sense, but, it allows him to hit normally harder to hit figures due to their extremities.

[allskulls]

If you are afraid to use the no LOS, how about using "May target Gray hit zones." Yeah, it doesn't always make the most sense, but, it allows him to hit normally harder to hit figures due to their extremities.
That actually sounds good!

[IAmBatman]

But the point of the gray hitzones isn't that you can't hit them there - you can - it's just that it wouldn't do any damage. Superman could, for instance, blast at a zombie's toes or Kelda's spear all day, and it wouldn't actually destroy the zombie or Kelda.

[Daredevil]

Invulnerability - what about making him immune to attacks from squad characters...is that going too far in another direction? Its just to me he should be able to wade through peons without out a scratch.

[Tiberius]

Invulnerability - what about making him immune to attacks from squad characters...is that going too far in another direction? Its just to me he should be able to wade through peons without out a scratch.

I would think it would break the figure too much, what if your opponent had nothing but squads vs your superman. How would they ever had a chance of winning?

[NecroBlade]

What are you considering the original in this case? The Range 7. Attack 4. with no text underneath? Or the same, but with the no LOS stipulation (which brings up turtling concerns)?I was considering no LOS as the original. Granted this brings up turtling concerns, but your opponent will eventually corner him. But then, playing Superman as a "run and hide" unit is really out of character...
I think people may be more inclined just to run up and bash with him, though, because he can fly faster than he can shoot, and it brings twice as many dice to bear.

[hex706f726368]

If you're trying to prevent a turtling superman (which I agree with), why not just a beefy short ranged eye blast. I don't see the need to make it any more special than that. Superman's mobility will almost always allow him to get LOS on a target and may speed up the engagement if you make it a short range blast. I'm thinking 4-5 dice with a range of 4 or 5.

On another topic, if you're looking for an anti-squad power, why not give superman the power to roll defense dice (specify qty) vs disengagement attacks from squad figures. Just a thought, it might be dumb. :)

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I have been thinking about it and one way to include his Heat Ray as a simple, non-turtle inducing attack would be to lower his normal attack to 4 and then give him a close combat power that lets him roll an extra 4 dice against ajacent figures. That would make it simple and effective, without having his heat Ray as a Special Attack without text...

The other option is to have the text as

Heat Ray
Special Attack
Range 7. Attack 4.
Choose a figure within 7 clear sight spaces of Superman. This figure is affected by Heat Ray. Roll 4 attack dice. The defender rolls defence dice as normal. After the defender has rolled defence dice, Superman may elect to reroll his attack dice. Compare this new total to the defender's already rolled defence dice.

Or something like that. The wording is obviously off, but you get the idea.
Ben.

[NecroBlade]

hex, I'm not sure I understand the disengage idea, but I'm going to say it's probably not a very good one. No offence, I'm just saying, how many times has Coward's Reward come into play for you?

B&K, the problem with both your suggestions, I think, is they really don't address turtling. Your version of Heat Ray has made it more powerful, and by making it a normal attack (the other option), you're giving players incentive to park Superman on high ground and shoot away with 5 dice.

[hex706f726368]

hex, I'm not sure I understand the disengage idea, but I'm going to say it's probably not a very good one. No offence, I'm just saying, how many times has Coward's Reward come into play for you?

I meant let superman roll defense dice if he wants to get away from a squad to keep from being swarmed. For example, superman is surrounded by 7 orcs or better yet, let's say knights of weston. He disengages from all 7 and flies 8 spaces away. The knights each roll their two attack dice for the disengage, but instead of it being undefended, let supes roll for defense against each attack, say maybe half his normal def? Just a thought. It kinda lends to his invulnerable theme I think, but that's just my view. YMMV

I agree, coward's reward wouldn't work for him.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

You wouldn't take the extra 3 (4 if you have height) attack dice to get into close combat... I doubt that.

If it's a problem, lower the dice by one make it a 3 attack and add 5 to close combat or lower the range.

Turtling comes down to a decision made by the player based on the abilities they have. Personally, I would want to be throwing 8 (9 with height) attack dice against someone than 4 (5 with height). But maybe that's just me... but I doubt it.

Ben

[NecroBlade]

Thanks for clarifying, hex.

B&K, I agree, I'd want to throw around more dice (plus that's just more my play style). In fact, I said as much earlier. I was just trying to avoid changes that would give further incentive to turtlers.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Fair call, taking the no LOS goes a long way to doing it. I think the important thing is to keep the close combat a more attractive option to really avoid it. But some people will still turtle him unfortunately (The only turtles I like are the ninja variety :wink: )

Think about Dr. Doom. Where is the incentive to charge him in. Not much. Same with Thanos. Having a ranged attack that is identical to their close combat attack is bad news. Dr Doom and Thanos rarely get in close combat when I play against them. Simply because there is no incentive to do so. It makes it boring to play against characters like that.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I personally don't think the range on Doom or Thanos is that big of a problem. Ranged units have their own fun.

Now Superman is a different story. He packs a punch up close and uses his heat rays to give an early blast to his opponent. You could have Heat Ray only work on turn 1 or Superman's first turn of a round. You could have Superman have a marker that is put on him when he uses Heat Ray and then is taken off when he becomes engaged with an enemy, then Superman can only use Heat Ray when he has no marker on the card. Then you could keep the no LOS and have no fear of turtling.

[Fezzikthedoor]

Overall good card, Bats.

I'm torn on the "line of fire" for his heat vision. I can see it being a good addition, but not wholly thematic. I do love the idea of him burning a hole through someone, though... :twisted:

Invulnerable I have a small problem with. I think you should stipulate that mind-control powers aren't affected by it. In the books, Supes has 3 big weaknesses: Kryptonite, magic, and mind control. On the last build of the card I think you have room to put in "non-mindshackle" in the description with that smaller font. It might change his point cost a little, but I really think it is more thematic and it doesn't make the d20 roll of some existing figures an impossible-without-enhancement 21.

I know you could make that arguement for Morsbane too, since his rod of negation is magical and he can destroy a figure on a roll of 20, but if you do I'll just kick you in the junk.

[rdhight]

What about limiting it to powers that would destroy or wound?

[Boromir_and_kermit]

*Protects his junk just in case* :wink:

Limiting it to powers that wound or destroy I think would sound good and as Fezzikthedoor says, keeps it thematic. It's a good point, mind control has been a problem in the past.

Ben.

[rdhight]

When you figure he already has mindshacklers, shades, Morsbane, and Dr. Doom to worry about, and with Professor X and Brainiac still to come, plus a whole boatload of wizard-looking guys in Wave 8, I think a weakness to magic and mind control should be worth a little price break, as well as being completely accurate.

[GreyOwl]

Tomorrow is supposed to be the last day for this trial, as it will have been a week. Is there a new version of the card to play test? There's been a lot of discussion about powers since the last version I saw, so I'm not sure if we're he's ready to play test yet or not.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Tomorrow is supposed to be the last day for this trial, as it will have been a week. Is there a new version of the card to play test? There's been a lot of discussion about powers since the last version I saw, so I'm not sure if we're he's ready to play test yet or not.I'm a judge for this guy, but seeing as I am in South Carolina without heroscape :cry: , but looking for a Marvelscape down here I can't really playtest him. Still we need the new card for Superman.

[johnny139]

I'll be doing a sweep around for MarvelScape soon, so I'll probably be able to playtest against REAL figures later this week...

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

So where is Batman? He hasn't been here for a couple days now, I hop everything is ok.

[IAmBatman]

I'm fine - I was moving and without Internet (and actually made a side trip with the family to New Orleans for a couple of days). I'll have a new version of the card up tomorrow that will take into account the magic/mindshackling for Invulnerability, and have a new take on Heat Vision that will also take into account the anti-squad concern (I'm basically going to make it so squaddies roll one fewer defense die against Heat Vision so Superman has a better chance of taking out squaddies without getting trapped in an engagement with several of them at a time).
I'm also going to pick through this thread for a new version of Super Breath.
Any thoughts on how his cost should be adjusted with these changes?

[johnny139]

I think the price seems fine as of now... with playtesting, of course, that'll change a bit, but for now keep it at 380.

[IAmBatman]

I want to keep him in that Hulk area, so I'm good with 380.

[IAmBatman]

Sorry for the delay! Hopefully this one's a lot closer.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/SupermanTNTrevision2.jpg

[Fezzikthedoor]

I just ripped a giant S off of my chest and threw it towards my computer screen, where it then coated the monitor in a thin, ceranwrap-like substance that had no real effect whatsoever since it quickly faded away into nothing. In other words, I think this might be a winner.

I just wish I could play test it...

[IAmBatman]

Nice Family Guy reference (at least that's what I think it was - that episode where they make fun of the scene from the Superman movie).
So, what's stopping you from playtesting it? I'm hoping to get in some playtesting myself later today.

[Fezzikthedoor]

Trapped in Korea untill December at the earliest. No Heroscape of any sort. :cry:

[IAmBatman]

Gotcha, and sounds like I won't get any in myself until Monday.

[Helznicht]

Got a thematical question. If the Blue Boyscout was in a hard fast battle with a badguy and that badguy was beaen to the edge of consiousness, would supes really fly up and level them with all his strength (8 dice).

There has been talk of the kryptonians weaknesses, but his biggest is of pulling his powers to keep from seriously hurting someone.

I might suggest lowering supermans attack and upping his defenses. He takes a beating from foes he probally shouldnt, but always pulls through.

The only time superman really shows his true strength is lifting or moving something to save someone. he would never punch someone with the fury that the hulk would (even though he could).

[IAmBatman]

I really see this game as more about what would these characters do in the battle of all time, where it's kill or be killed. Batman wouldn't actually kill criminals at all, but for the sake of the game, he does.
When Superman fought Doomsday, someone on his power level, he used every bit of his strength to smack Doomsday around. The Superman I designed is that one - the desperate to do what he can to save humanity Superman.
But if you'd rather see one with Shields of Valor (a power I felt would fit well with him, but didn't fit into my plans) and an attack of 6 or 4 or whatever, I certainly encourage you to.

[johnny139]

OH! I forgot I was judging this! Sorry!

I'll try and get a playtest in sometime today.

[GreyOwl]

Okay guys, how are things going with this trial? It's been open for a LONG time...:)

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I think we are just awaiting playtests. Then you, me, and johnny have to give it the stamp.

[IAmBatman]

I did several playtests of this the other night and not much to report other than Superman felt worth his points to me and my friend both (sorry it's less detailed, my pc is in the shop, so my reporting abilities are real spotty right now). Super Breath played a little funny - I wonder if we couldn't get a wording for it that makes it so the affected figure is pushed in a straight line only. I think such a thing is needed to make sure it's not more broken around lava than Magneto's throw (He actually doused Magneto in some lava one game).
Other than that, he worked well and I felt he was really worth his points, but killable at the same time. Your results may vary.

[ICOOLDUDE]

He can't fly???!!!??

[allskulls]

He can't fly???!!!??
Next to the Superstrength symbol is the flying symbol that us custom creators use to save text space. Comes in handy on a lot of supers :D

[ICOOLDUDE]

He can't fly???!!!??
Next to the Superstrength symbol is the flying symbol that us custom creators use to save text space. Comes in handy on a lot of supers :D

Thanks allskulls, I just realized that from a different post. :lol:

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Super Breath played a little funny - I wonder if we couldn't get a wording for it that makes it so the affected figure is pushed in a straight line only. I think such a thing is needed to make sure it's not more broken around lava than Magneto's throw (He actually doused Magneto in some lava one game).

Here you go...

"After moving and before attacking, you may choose any opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20 sided-die.
-If you roll a 6-10, place the figure up to 2 spaces straight back from its orignal location.
-If you roll a 11-15, place the figure up to 3 spaces straight back from its orignal location.
-If you roll a 16-20, place the figure up to 4 spaces straight back from its orignal location and remove all order markers from its card.
The choosen figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. If the choosen figure is places on a space 10 or more levels lower than Superman, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher the choosen figures recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is placed on water or has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for damage. The affected figure does not take disengagement attacks as a result of Super Breath."

Now lets get this thing stamped already.

[IAmBatman]

"Straight back" seems very open to interpretation, though. I'm wondering if "in a straight line, away from Superman" might work better? (Though it's considerably wordier, which I don't like).
As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the wording gets right for that power, he's good to go. But I'm the one on trial here, so, yeah ... :D

[rdhight]

I think we should copy Mimring's fireline wording. "Move the chosen figure X spaces in a straight line from Superman."

But Super Breath as currently written just seems too big. I'm in favor of straight-up walking ground movement instead of placing the figure that many spaces away and doing d20 throwing-style damage. The ability to push a friend up a 100-level wall, or deal 2 wounds to an enemy on a regular basis, in addition to attacking, and with order marker destruction against any card-- common or unique, hero or squad-- seems a little overpowering even for Superman.

[IAmBatman]

The wounding only happens on a regular basis if you're playing with great heights. The roll for "blowing damage" doesn't even kick in unless you're blowing a figure to a space 10 or more levels lower than its original space - and then if it lands on a water space, that figure has flying, or that figure has Superstrength, it doesn't kick in. So the only way Superman's really damaging anyone with his superbreath is by blowing a non-flying, non-superstrong figure off a castle wall or cliff (Supes has to be up there too, though, since he can only use his breath on adjacent figs), or if Supes blows them into lava.
I think all the damage/engagement/etc. stuff is fine right now, I just want to make sure people get the point that you're blowing the figure *away* from Superman and in a straight line, not just around him to another adjacent space.
I think the use of wording from Mimring's power is on the right track, though ... But I'm really struggling with getting the wording right. I've tried typing about four or five things here and I keep finding problems with them. So far, I think Hi's wording is the closest, but I don't think it's quite there yet.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I think Hi's wording as always is excellent. However I agree straight back doesn't quite do it. How about:

"After moving and before attacking, you may choose any opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20 sided-die.
-If you roll a 6-10, place the figure up to 2 spaces straight back from its orignal location and directly away from Superman.
-If you roll a 11-15, place the figure up to 3 spaces straight back from its orignal location and directly away from Superman.
-If you roll a 16-20, place the figure up to 4 spaces straight back from its orignal location and directly away from Superman. Remove all order markers from its card.
The choosen figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman. If the choosen figure is places on a space 10 or more levels lower than Superman, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher the choosen figures recieves 2 wounds. If the figure is placed on water or has Flying or Superstrength, do not roll for damage. The affected figure does not take disengagement attacks as a result of Super Breath."

I know it makes it slightly more wordier, but it is a little more specific. Does this ignore height? If so, we should probably have that in there such as '...place the figure up to 3 spaces straight back from it's original location and directly away from superman. Ignore height.'

Or we could just say as a disclaimer near the end. 'Height restrictions do not apply for this attack'

Or we could leave it as it says 'place' not 'move'. (I just realised but I have typed all this now. Seems a waste just to delete it :P )

Ben.

[rdhight]

Here's a combination of hi1's wording, the fireline phrase, and a few typo corrections.

SUPER BREATH
After moving and before attacking, you may choose any opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20 sided-die.
-If you roll a 6-10, place the figure up to 2 spaces away fom Superman.
-If you roll a 11-15, place the figure up to 3 spaces away from Superman.
-If you roll a 16-20, place the figure up to 2 spaces away from Superman and remove all order markers from its card.
The chosen figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman and in a straight line from Superman. If the landing space is 10 or more levels lower than Superman, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is placed on water or has Flying or Super Strength, do not roll for damage. Figures moved by Super Breath never take leaving engagement attacks.

[IAmBatman]

That's a good approach, Rdhight - I like that wording a lot. The only changes I'd like to make are with what's optional and what's not (right now I feel like Supes gets a little too much leeway in where figures end up being placed). How's this?

Super Breath
After moving and before attacking, you may choose any opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll a 6-10, you may place the figure 2 spaces from its original location.
-If you roll an 11-15, you may place the figure 3 spaces from its original location.
-If you roll a 16-20, you may place the figure up to 4 spaces away from its original placement and remove all Order Markers from its card.
The chosen figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman and in a straight line from Superman. If the landing space is 10 or more levels lower than Superman, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is placed on water or has Flying or Super Strength, do not roll for damage. Figures moved by Super Breath never take leaving engagement attacks.

[rdhight]

I would make all the outcomes mention "placement" or all mention "location." Right now it's split.

I like it that Superman only uses this attack against enemies. Sure, he could knock a super-strong ally out of engagement or something, but he doesn't want to expose him to danger.

Also, the order marker destruction seems a little heavy. On a roll of 16+, destroy all order markers on any card? Seems a little out of character for Supes to be gunning for Arrow Gruts and then paralyze a whole common horde by hitting one figure. Making it unique heroes only, or even unique only, would guide players somewhat toward picking on someone his own size. And if it has to work on everyone, what about only knocking off only one marker?

Oh, and I would change Invulnerability to something like "When rolling the 20-sided die for any special power that would wound or destroy Superman, all players must subtract 1 from the roll." The "you may" makes it sound like the attacker has the option to lower his chances if he wants!

[IAmBatman]

OK, trying again:

Super Breath
After moving and before attacking, you may choose any opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll a 6-10, you may place the figure 2 spaces from its original location.
-If you roll an 11-16, you may place the figure 3 spaces from its original location.
-If you roll a 17-20, you may place the figure up to 4 spaces away from its original location and remove all Order Markers from its card.
The chosen figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman and in a straight line from Superman. If the landing space is 10 or more levels lower than Superman, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is placed on water or has Flying or Super Strength, do not roll for damage. Figures moved by Super Breath never take leaving engagement attacks.

I also changed the odds on it a bit. I could see changing it so on the high roll it only removes one Order Marker, but I want to see what other people say before committing to that. Right now, I think his cost justifies a more powerful order marker removal.
As to Invulnerability, it's a clear precedent that when it says "you" on a card, it refers to the owner of the card, and the owner only. And I don't want to make it a "must" because then if Superman is on the same team as Kelda and Kelda tries to heal him and rolls a 2, then the player controlling them would be forced to lower that roll to a 1 and put wounds on Superman - which is just silly, IMO. I want it to be optional and for the player controlling Superman to decide - which I feel is clear now.

[rdhight]

The wording looks good. I think it would enhance his mobility more as a before-moving power, because of the favorable chance to move an enemy at least 1 space away and disengage, then fly away all in one turn. But then that might lead to "let them come to me" tactics where you dare the enemy to move adjacent to Superman, then he disengages, flies away, and shoots, which isn't really what he's about. So... I guess I talked myself out of it.

How are you planning on doing Kryptonite? Does it only improve the attacks of the figure who has it, or can that figure weaken Superman against an attack from a third figure? And does it negate any of his powers?

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I think Lex Luthur's suit had a decrease in defense for all Kryptonians, so I assume thats how he will be doing Kryptonite

[IAmBatman]

Green Kryptonite (which is the only one that's going to be relevant for Kryptonite powers held by Lex, Kryptonite Man, Conduit, etc) lowers the defense value of all Kryptonians by 4.
I've got some glyphs/equipment floating around on my thread that deals with Red, Gold, Black, White, Blue Kryptonite, etc.

[rdhight]

So if Superman flies up to armored Lex or whoever, he'll still have all special abilities and all attack dice?

[IAmBatman]

Please use this wording for playtesting - my school semester starts tomorrow and I'm teaching two classes and taking three ... plus I'm feeling pretty under the weather, so it's going to be a bit before I get it on a card. But this wording for Superbreath should work for playtesting, along with everything else like it is now.

Super Breath
After moving and before attacking, you may choose any opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Superman. Roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll a 6-10, you may place the figure 2 spaces from its original location.
-If you roll an 11-16, you may place the figure 3 spaces from its original location.
-If you roll a 17-20, you may place the figure up to 4 spaces away from its original location and remove all Order Markers from its card.
The chosen figure must land on an empty space within clear sight of Superman and in a straight line from Superman. If the landing space is 10 or more levels lower than Superman, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is placed on water or has Flying or Super Strength, do not roll for damage. Figures moved by Super Breath never take leaving engagement attacks.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

this is definately my favorite custom piece and i think he is nearly perfect as he is. invulnerability and heat vision dont need to be changed at all and the only thing missing from super breath is LoS and falling damage. I dont think that you need to change the odds on the 20 sider roll at all. Now if only i had a figure to represent him...

and can i request Martian Manhunter (John Luke,i think) and the Green Lantern? The flash would be cool also but the first two i would really love to see.

[IAmBatman]

I have a custom for Flash posted somewhere on my thread ... Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern I've done before and I'll get around to posting new and improved versions of eventually (I'm focusing on getting TNT stamps for guys before focusing too much on making new ones)
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about LoS and falling damage in Super Breath - the current wording (what I just posted) addresses both of those ...

[UtgarsWorstFear]

yea, i was just saying i want it on the card lol. but i understand your a busy man. and did you purposely make batman the sweetest card out there? haha

[IAmBatman]

Nah, that was all chance and pluckiness. Glad you like him, though. He's my fav of what I've gotten done as well.
If you really want to help, playtest Supes and give me and excuse to get this version up so we can put a TNT stamp on it. :D

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

If it helps, I am about to playtest like 8 Spider-man villains, now if Superman were there, whats an extra card to test? :wink:

[UtgarsWorstFear]

we play superman and batman regularly with other superheros and normal heroscape figures as well. superman is my favorite and if anything seems a bit overpriced. whenever he is in the same game as the hulk (who is 10 points less) he never seems to get as much done and be as much of a power house. maybe this is just me, but i think superman should be the greatest heroscape piece ever, not the hulk. so i say boost this guy up to 400 and make him a god or leave him the same and make him a god haha.

but as he is he is perfect, but i just think he should be the mac daddy superhero.

Oh yea...batman is perfect.

[IAmBatman]

Hard to argue with that endorsement. :D
In all seriousness, though, in my playtesting, Supes has played Hulk about even, which I'm ok with.

[johnny139]

I REALLY want to test this guy out, but I currently don't have a board set up, nor do I have any room to do so...

I'll end up doing it this weekend, I hope.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

ok, we're about to have a big game tonight. i think we're gonna do superheros vs. everything else. ill try to use superman and tell you how it goes. this is how i will play him:

exactly as the card says except: when using super breath on a small or medium figure and it falls 10 spaces below its original placement roll an 11 or higher for 2 wounds. and it has to end in clear sight of superman. is this correct? and what about the invulnerability ability? (kind of a tounge twister haha) Does it mean any D20 roll that would wound or destroy him? Because that would also include the massive curse glyph (in which case he really would be invulnerable),or does it just mean any "unit" that uses a D20 against him?

[IAmBatman]

The way you should play Superbreath is in the text posted on the last page - I think everything you wrote there is right, though.
For invulnerability, it's any D20 roll that could wound or destroy Supes, so massive curse glyph too, yeah.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

ok, the test was gay... we did a three vs. three castle seige. superman-me, spider man-my teamate, and batman, another teamate vs. syvarris, deadeye, crixus, su-bak-na, and me-burq-sa.

superman flew in first and lasered deadeye through the battlements (dont even let it cross your mind to take that ability away lol) and got 2 wounds on him...which would have been ok if it werent for the fact that next turn he roll a friggin 20! so superman is out, then syvarris tears up batman because the couldnt get "i am the night" to work. and then spidey did way more than both of us because he finished deadeye and completely took out su-bak-na.

we should definately do a do-over. it just really ticks me off because that was the first time that supermans invulnerability has ever came into play for me and he gets capped in between the eyes with a kryptobullet...

[UtgarsWorstFear]

awwwwww, i just saw the updated card on page 7...im disapointed, but most everybody else seems to like it. Its all good and all, but the "no LoS" ability was pimp. Did you see superman returns? He bore a hole through the earth a couple miles before he got there when he was about to lift the continent...yea thats why i loved that ability. And as far as not working for mindshackling goes, nobody and i mean NOBODY wants to see the worlds greatest superhero fighting against what they believe in. Superman would get shot by Deadeye's kryptobullet before he ever fought for the wrong side. Weak minded superman is just not cool at all.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

ok, it is 3 in the morning and i want someone to talk to, but i have come to realize that no one is here so im just gonna blab...

Life of 8 is good for superman, because he can take a lot of hits (the same as the hulk and a bit less that Charos). Now, I do understand that superman has been depicted in many ways, but I would think he would have a move of 9 because he is faster than a man on horse back AT LEAST! This guy can fly around the world people. Range of 1 is obvious. Attack of 9 puts him a bit less than a ticked off Hulk and one above Jotun, who I would just assume him to be stronger than. And a defense of 7 because he is more invulnerable to things than most superheros. Now i wouldnt be really shure how to price this guy if he were to be played, but I would think somewhere in the 390-410 range would be right.

This is in no way an insult to any previous versions of superman because I really came up with nothing on my own. I just tweaked things to how I want them to be. All I want is feedback on if this would work good or not, not to make this "the" Superman. But I wouldnt mind it stuck on a card and priced just so i could print it off and use it. :)

[rdhight]

UtgarsWorstFear, posting playtest reports of a TNT custom is definitely a help; thank you for doing that. But please do not ever post your own version of a character in the Trial of someone else's interpretation of that same character. This is a specialized, single-purpose thread set aside for just this one card. A customs thread of your own or a general versions-of-Superman topic would be the right place for those stats of your own version.

[allskulls]

UWF's post seems right in line with the thread, suggesting tweaks to the already made Supe's by IAB. Just not a good idea requesting cards made here. Your best bet would be to post those requests in a custom creator's thread or through pm.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

My bad, i just got carried away. But wouldnt it tick you off i did make my own thread and say this was "my" superman? I really did nothing more than add more attack, defense, and move. But all copywriting aside, can i get an educated guess on where that guy would be priced anyway?

[allskulls]

As I said, there was nothing wrong with your suggestions. Just requesting cards to be made separately from the one on trial is a bit off course. There would be no problem with just making the suggestions and asking how much he would be with the said changes. This thread is dedicated to making this custom the best it can be and with the most accurate cost. IAB will make his decision as to what changes will be made if any. Once this Supes is stamped, if he is not the Supes for you (ha ha "No Supes for you!") than, by all means, make the changes you desire. If you need someone to actually make the changes for you, I am sure someone will :wink:

[UtgarsWorstFear]

thanks man, i was starting to feel kinda ashamed there for a minute...anyhoo wheres batman? lol

[IAmBatman]

I sneak on every once in a while. Haven't responded to your pm yet, because, no offense, but it's low on my priority list. I'll have enough trouble getting up a new card for the TNT trial at this point (life is hectic!) so no offense intended or anything, that's just my reality right now.
I think what you guys are missing in this is something Utgars is adding to the debate. Namely the question of - are Superman's stats right? Is 8 move representational of his superspeed or is it too slow? Does 6 defense make him tough enough to feel like Superman or does he need more? (I thought if it worked for Hulk, who's nigh invulnerable himself, it should work for Supes, but hey, I'm just one voice - I want to hear from others on the issue). And is 8 attack as a base enough? It'd be tied with the highest base attack from the game, and I was reluctant to fly over that, but is Superman worth a base attack of 9? I'm not so sure, as he's rarely a go for the throat type as it is ... but maybe I'm wrong?
Sounds like right now we need that, more playtesting, and for me to have the chance to post the latest version of the card here ...
Personally, I feel like the latest version I'll post is going to be right there, but feel free to tell me if you think I'm dead wrong.

[GreyOwl]

I might have some time today to playtest. Which version should I test? I'm not completely clear what the most current version is.

As far as his super speed and move 8, I'm torn. 8 is pretty good, but at the same time it's what the Swog Rider has. I doubt the Swog Rider is comparable to "superspeed". I'm not sure how Superman's speed compares to Flash in the comics, but I think somewhere around move 12 (give or take 1) is about right for Flash in terms of playability and game mechanics (though it should be much higher if going for accuracy). I always Superman was just slightly slower, so maybe a move of 10? That being said, if you put Superman at that level it might make him too powerful.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

no prob batman, i completely understand. and as you can tell, im gonna pull for the bigger, better, faster version of superman. im starting to think that its just my love for the guy that makes me want him to be the best there is. I was in a similar situation with Sgt. Drake back when he was 110 pts, but now i am completely satisfied with him because everything i didnt like about him was fixed. Though even though they are my 2 favorite characters the sarge is an average joe (a pimp one though) and superman is the greatest superhero to ever live...2 completely different playing fields.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

I might have some time today to playtest. Which version should I test? I'm not completely clear what the most current version is.

As far as his super speed and move 8, I'm torn. 8 is pretty good, but at the same time it's what the Swog Rider has. I doubt the Swog Rider is comparable to "superspeed". I'm not sure how Superman's speed compares to Flash in the comics, but I think somewhere around move 12 (give or take 1) is about right for Flash in terms of playability and game mechanics (though it should be much higher if going for accuracy). I always Superman was just slightly slower, so maybe a move of 10? That being said, if you put Superman at that level it might make him too powerful.

You have to take into consideration though that superman can fly and the flash just runs. I always viewed the flash and superman as being about the same speed, but if superman can just fly over terrain and the flash cant I would think a move of 9 would be just right.

[allskulls]

I think 8 move is good. Remember he has Flying...Swogs don't. Other super flyers should be relatively faster in this regard but I think the Flying ability comes into play when deciding on move values and point cost (see Minions and Sentinels). I think 9 move would be OK too but no more than that IMO. (EDIT: I see UWF made this point also.)

I agree with Bats on the attack of 8. Supes is a punch-puller.

Defense could stand for a boost but not totally neccassary with his high life. A 7 will put him on par with the Marvel cosmic characters.

[IAmBatman]

As the resident DC guy I would argue that the Flash (Wally West in particular, but Barry Allen too) is significantly faster than Superman. Superman has superspeed, no doubt, and is faster than a speeding bullet, but Flash could probably run back and forth between the speeding bullet and Superman about six times before Superman moved. Flash can literally "stop time". My plan so as to not break the game, was for Supes to be a move of 8, Wally West to be a move of 10, and other Flashes to clock in at around 9. However, I could bump Supes up to 9 and others accordingly if that's the consensus.
I also agree that flying makes a HUGE difference in terms of mobility. A move 8 flier is going to get places faster than just about anyone in this game, and unlike Hulk with his superleap, Supes won't have to sacrifice anything to do so.

[rdhight]

Move 8, flying, no sacrifices seems like a great matchup against the conditional 10 of super leap and the conditional 11 total of hyper speed. Remember, the Surfer's threat radius is 12, and Hulk's is 11. With a speed of 8 flying and a range of 7 on super breath, Supes can hit someone who is 15 spaces away. And unlike AE or Iskra/rechets, he can do it time after time with no d20 uncertainty. I think 9 move is complete overkill, and even with 7 move and 7 range, he'll have a very favorable chance to get first strike on Hulk/Abomination/Surfer or even a move 10, range 1 Wally West.

[GreyOwl]

As the resident DC guy I would argue that the Flash (Wally West in particular, but Barry Allen too) is significantly faster than Superman. Superman has superspeed, no doubt, and is faster than a speeding bullet, but Flash could probably run back and forth between the speeding bullet and Superman about six times before Superman moved. Flash can literally "stop time". My plan so as to not break the game, was for Supes to be a move of 8, Wally West to be a move of 10, and other Flashes to clock in at around 9. However, I could bump Supes up to 9 and others accordingly if that's the consensus.
I also agree that flying makes a HUGE difference in terms of mobility. A move 8 flier is going to get places faster than just about anyone in this game, and unlike Hulk with his superleap, Supes won't have to sacrifice anything to do so.

I wasn't sure about who was faster, so I'll take your word for it. :) I agree that on it's own, a move of 8 sounds right. I just don't like it simply because it's what the swog rider has and I think Superman should be faster than him. I understand that it probably shouldn't be much higher (or any higher) for the purposes of gameplay, but thematically it just seems off that the fastest Superman can fly is the same as the Swog Rider can run. But that kind of inconsistency is throughout the official figures as well, so I'm not suggesting that you change it or anything. Just complaining for no reason. :?

[IAmBatman]

Move 8, flying, no sacrifices seems like a great matchup against the conditional 10 of super leap and the conditional 11 total of hyper speed. Remember, the Surfer's threat radius is 12, and Hulk's is 11. With a speed of 8 flying and a range of 7 on super breath, Supes can hit someone who is 15 spaces away. And unlike AE or Iskra/rechets, he can do it time after time with no d20 uncertainty. I think 9 move is complete overkill, and even with 7 move and 7 range, he'll have a very favorable chance to get first strike on Hulk/Abomination/Surfer or even a move 10, range 1 Wally West.

You mean range of 7 with Heat Vision, right? He has to be adjacent to use Super Breath.

[rdhight]

Move 8, flying, no sacrifices seems like a great matchup against the conditional 10 of super leap and the conditional 11 total of hyper speed. Remember, the Surfer's threat radius is 12, and Hulk's is 11. With a speed of 8 flying and a range of 7 on super breath, Supes can hit someone who is 15 spaces away. And unlike AE or Iskra/rechets, he can do it time after time with no d20 uncertainty. I think 9 move is complete overkill, and even with 7 move and 7 range, he'll have a very favorable chance to get first strike on Hulk/Abomination/Surfer or even a move 10, range 1 Wally West.

You mean range of 7 with Heat Vision, right? He has to be adjacent to use Super Breath.

Yeah, I meant Heat Vision.

[IAmBatman]

My personal take is that Supes doesn't really need any stat boosts to be worth his current point and that his current points are fine given that they're A) the highest in the game thus far and B) right around the same area as the Incredible Hulk (10 points higher) which seems right in line with comics canon.

[Penitus]

IAmBatman, have you considered changing the sculpt to maybe the Superman from the upcoming Justice League set?

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/HDJL/HDJL_046.jpg

He'll be really easy to debase and rebase, and the sculpt is better than most of Wizkids Superman sculpts.

[allskulls]

I agree with Penitus, that is the best Supes (besides KC). The one I have is doing a knee spin :?

That's my first look at the new HC stuff too...I need to go see what's coming up.

[Penitus]

I agree with Penitus, that is the best Supes (besides KC). The one I have is doing a knee spin :?

That's my first look at the new HC stuff too...I need to go see what's coming up.

Well the KC Superman is too old for my tastes, and I don't have one.

Of course, I stopped collecting Heroclix years ago, but I'd sure pay 3 bucks or so for a Rookie version of the Superman above just to make into a Heroscape version :D

[allskulls]

I mentioned KC because the sculpt is cool but for this custom I don't think it would work either. And, yeah $3 for the JL Supes would beat anything you'd have to pay for KC :wink:

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but the one I used is the one I have ... :D

[UtgarsWorstFear]

ok did many many play tests with superman for a total of 3 tonight. game one was superman, batman, and the hulk attacking 2X snipers, taelord, braxas, and deadeye in a castle. I played superman again and flew in before my teamates and took for wounds in 1 turn from three snipers (which is fine with me considering they had 3 attack). but then i flew up to try and attack taelord and got 2 wounds on him and braxas poison breathed me and got an 18...superman does nothing.


game 2 was an all out superhero battle. Me (superman) and my teamates captain america and thanos vs. the hulk, silver surfer, and dr. doom. they had speed on us because all of them are very mobile and we had to wait for ole capt. to hobble along, so they got the high ground on us. but i took a spot and lasered the hulk through a wall, which caused him to have to super leap to get to me. and we just had a slugfest from there on out. it was goin pretty good until dr. doom showed up and took control of me with an 18 and had me beat up capt. america. then silver surfer finished me off...superman puts 7 wounds on the hulk and 4 on the capt.

game three was superman (do i have to say who played him again) the hulk and thanos vs. a ton of crap just to see how far we could get, but guess what braxas got an 18 before i could do anything...i dont wanna talk about it.

so pretty much the 20 sider is supermans worst enemy. this is the same for any superhero, but superman just seems as if you MUST draft the 20 sider guys to kill him. i thought it was kinda funny that the invulnerable man was the only one killed by the 20 sider in all of my playtests. haha

[ej]

8 life seems low.
Move 8 seems low.
Defense 6 seems low.

However, making him less than 500 points, I guess you've gotta sacrifice SOMETHING, right?

Invulnerability as written will mean he can't be Mindshackled (or whatever) by some figures. Since he's not immune to telepathic attacks, that's (HA!) unrealistic.

Superbreath... how about saying "backwards or forwards", since it's hard for him to blow someone sideways?

Heat Vision... I think LOS should be necessary.

My apologies if all of these have been discussed to death... I'm a bit late to the thread.

[GreyOwl]

Invulnerability as written will mean he can't be Mindshackled (or whatever) by some figures. Since he's not immune to telepathic attacks, that's (HA!) unrealistic.


Actually, the way it's written, it wouldn't apply to Mindshackle, or similar abilities, at all. It specifically says if the 20 sided roll is an attempt to "wound or destroy" him. Mindshackle is neither, so it would be unaffected by Invulnerability.

[ej]

Invulnerability as written will mean he can't be Mindshackled (or whatever) by some figures. Since he's not immune to telepathic attacks, that's (HA!) unrealistic.


Actually, the way it's written, it wouldn't apply to Mindshackle, or similar abilities, at all. It specifically says if the 20 sided roll is an attempt to "wound or destroy" him. Mindshackle is neither, so it would be unaffected by Invulnerability.

I was going off the first image's "If Superman is the target of a special attack or power involving the 20-sided die, you may subtract 1 from the roll." I'll check through the thread for the updated version.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Invulnerability as written will mean he can't be Mindshackled (or whatever) by some figures. Since he's not immune to telepathic attacks, that's (HA!) unrealistic.


Actually, the way it's written, it wouldn't apply to Mindshackle, or similar abilities, at all. It specifically says if the 20 sided roll is an attempt to "wound or destroy" him. Mindshackle is neither, so it would be unaffected by Invulnerability.

I was going off the first image's "If Superman is the target of a special attack or power involving the 20-sided die, you may subtract 1 from the roll." I'll check through the thread for the updated version.Yea thats an old version of the card. I think the new one is around page 3

[ej]

The wording for the Super Breath power is getting the attention it deserves, which is great. I would point out, though, that with his powerful attack that the Super Breath power might not see much play, unless he was able to blow away ANY or ALL adjacent figures at once (maybe with no damage?)

The talk of Superman pulling his punches CAN be addressed thematically with this:

Last Gasp Special Attack
If Superman is engaged and has only 1 life remaining, he may skip his movement phase and roll 12 dice for this attack. If 8 or more shields are rolled, remove Superman from the board after damage is dealt.

My reasoning is that even in Valhalla Superman would still fight honorably.



Oh, and what about teleporting, Celophane S attack and "Kiss of Forgetfulness"? Oh, oh oh and how about "At the beginning of round one, if there are no Phone Booths on the map, Superman must skip this round while he finds another place to change."? X-Ray vision - Superman may see anything he wants, at any time (useful if playing Strip Heroscape). Power Drill Superman? Where he can drill down through the terrain and reappear up to 12 spaces away, even if engaged? Or or or or or or how about Laser Beam Redirection, which is basically a RANGED COUNTERSTRIKE!

Okay, that's just silly. Not the ranged counterstrike, the X-Ray vision thing. Have you SEEN who most of us play Heroscape against?

[UtgarsWorstFear]

i think ive been thinking too much in terms of what superman could really do rather than for him to be playable in heroscape. because if superman were to have every power and stat that he should he would be about 1000 points. this has made me realize that 8 move is good and 8 attack is good. but i think that he stills needs at least one more defense. and you really really need to put that No LoS needed rule back into laser vision because that is the complete opposite of what i said above. Its not very accurate, but an awesome game mechanic.

[GreyOwl]

Invulnerability as written will mean he can't be Mindshackled (or whatever) by some figures. Since he's not immune to telepathic attacks, that's (HA!) unrealistic.


Actually, the way it's written, it wouldn't apply to Mindshackle, or similar abilities, at all. It specifically says if the 20 sided roll is an attempt to "wound or destroy" him. Mindshackle is neither, so it would be unaffected by Invulnerability.

I was going off the first image's "If Superman is the target of a special attack or power involving the 20-sided die, you may subtract 1 from the roll." I'll check through the thread for the updated version.Yea thats an old version of the card. I think the new one is around page 3

There's one on page 7, which I think is the newest version, although there is a newer version of the wording for Super Breath after that somewhere.

[IAmBatman]

You can find the reasons I took the no LOS out of Heat Vision in this thread. Concerns of turtling is the synopsis, but if you're interested, go back through and read the arguments.

[IAmBatman]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Man%20of%20Steel%20Master%20Set/SupermanTNTrevision3.jpg

Sorry for the delay, please use this for playtesting.

[IAmBatman]

Any comments from the judges on the new card?

[Firemaster]

Any comments from the judges on the new card?

Well, if I was a judge, I would give it my stamp right now, but I'm not a judg, so I can't.

[IAmBatman]

It does feel like people are losing interest in this thread. I'm not sure if that's because they're happy with what's here, or if it's because they only want a completely different version of their own creation?

[Manchine]

It does feel like people are losing interest in this thread. I'm not sure if that's because they're happy with what's here, or if it's because they only want a completely different version of their own creation?

I have to say I like it. There are ways you can make several characters. No one way is right, unless you give Aunt May all 8's. :) I used yours as a base for mine.

The only thing I would say is make the Heat Vision more damage and one more pip in the Defense department. :)

[IAmBatman]

I based the defense and life on Hulk - I figured if 8 life and 6 defense were good enough for Hulk, they were good enough for Supes, as the two seem to be on similar levels of invulnerability. Also Supes has the extra power to limit the autokills on him. Though with Kryptonite on the horizon, a weakness Hulk doesn't have to worry about, I could see a case for raising Superman's defense to 7.
As for Heat Vision, I just think the 7 attack you have on yours is wacky, no offense. :P Heat Vision that powerful would be literally melting the baddies Supes faces, and I just don't see that happening. It's really more like a medium intensity laser the way I've seen it represented in the comics, and no where near the level of a cosmic blast from Surfer (which gets 6 dice in this game).
I know you disagree with the power levels of a lot of guys in the Marvel Masterset, but it's what we have to go on and balance against because it's what Hasbro has given us to work with, like it or not.

[Manchine]

As for Heat Vision, I just think the 7 attack you have on yours is wacky, no offense. :P Heat Vision that powerful would be literally melting the baddies Supes faces, and I just don't see that happening. It's really more like a medium intensity laser the way I've seen it represented in the comics, and no where near the level of a cosmic blast from Surfer (which gets 6 dice in this game).

Actually have to say is more damaging then his fists. Its more of a killing attack. He usually controls it so it doesn't do that much but against people like Darkseid/Doomsday and such he lets loose.

PS Edit Even if you wanted to keep it in the realm of attack which is Silver Surfer. Which I would say they are about equal. A 6 would be about right.


I know you disagree with the power levels of a lot of guys in the Marvel Masterset, but it's what we have to go on and balance against because it's what Hasbro has given us to work with, like it or not.

Or you could just balance the characters and make them how they are in the comics. I really don't want to get in that discussion here. I didn't bring it up so lets stay on topic. :)

[GreyOwl]

I haven't lost interest, and I like the latest card. I've just been pretty busy at work and my son started school this week, so that's been taking up some time. I do have a map set up and will play test him in the next few days.

Nothing personal, it's just that time of year. :)

[IAmBatman]

Oh, trust me, I know. I just needed to bump it to try to generate some buzz again. If anyone's been behind around here lately, it's me. :P

[GreyOwl]

One quick question on the Super Breath. It says that the target may receive a wound if they land 10 or more levels below Superman. Did you mean that to be 10 or more levels from where the target figure was before? If you really meant Superman, then I'm not clear why that would necessarily matter.

[Manchine]

Oh, trust me, I know. I just needed to bump it to try to generate some buzz again. If anyone's been behind around here lately, it's me. :P

I have been reading a lot of the stuff here. Greyowls and yours (Also Allskulls) are very original and each of you should get a thank you from everyone on this board. In fact I know I had sent Allskulls a thank you when I first came on the boards. (I think it was him.)

:lol:

[IAmBatman]

Thank you, manchine, that means a lot. There are a lot of folks around here that you could say similar things about, though, beyond the three you mentioned.
And GreyOwl, I'm sad to say it, you're absolutely right. It should be 10 levels from where the figure was, not from Superman (though they have to be adjacent to Supes, so the actual gameplay won't be much different). Still, it's a change that's needed, so, thank you.

[Manchine]

Now back to the Heat Vision. I have had many debates with many people and have learned Many things. So I bring this to your attention. :)

http://www.dcdatabaseproject.com/Superman_(Kal-El/Clark_Kent)

http://www.dcdatabaseproject.com/Superman_(Kal-El/Clark_Kent)
Have to copy and paste it. It doesn't like the _(Kal-El/Clark_Kent).

Heat Vision: The ability to fire beams of intense heat at a target by looking at it with the conscious act of activating this power. Visually, the power is typically depicted as two beams of red light firing from his eyes. These beams can be made invisible, allowing Superman to work undetected. The maximum temperature of his heat vision is said to be around that of a nuclear detonation. The area of effect can be consciously determined by Superman, down to the microscopic level. Recent stories imply the precision is so exact it can bypass a target's outer shell (not causing damage to a person's skull for surgical purposes) or even defenses (such as invulnerability or intangibility).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_vision

The exact limitation of Superman's heat vision is undetermined. Heat vision, while one of Superman's most powerful abilities, is usually considered the one which drains him of solar energy fastest. Shortly after his resurrection, he lost control of his newly-regained super-powers and was forced to submerge in the ocean for a time to let his heat-vision drain his stamina and allow him to regain command of his faculties.

His current upper limit has been demonstrated to destroy an army of poorly made Doomsday clones in a single application. (The original Doomsday could resist Superman's heat vision). However, Superman stated (while rubbing his eyes) that he "couldn't do that twice" after unleashing the blast, suggesting that it taxed him heavily.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm, sounds to me like 4 attack dice is good, then, as any higher and I'd have to start worrying about it draining Supes of solar energy and start inflicting wounds on him for using it. :P

[GreyOwl]

Thank you, manchine, that means a lot. There are a lot of folks around here that you could say similar things about, though, beyond the three you mentioned.
And GreyOwl, I'm sad to say it, you're absolutely right. It should be 10 levels from where the figure was, not from Superman (though they have to be adjacent to Supes, so the actual gameplay won't be much different). Still, it's a change that's needed, so, thank you.

You're right, it should be close in application, though not exactly the same since "adjacent" doesn't have to be at the same level. Or does it? Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly. I always interpreted "adjacent" as "able to be engaged" (not just "engaged", so as to include friendly figures as well).

[Manchine]

Hmm, sounds to me like 4 attack dice is good, then, as any higher and I'd have to start worrying about it draining Supes of solar energy and start inflicting wounds on him for using it. :P


Oh now you made me think even more. :) Why not make it an Variable attack.
4 damage = normal
5 damage = 1 damage Unblockable to Superman
6 damage = 2 damage Unblockable to Superman can not use heat vision for the rest of the game.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

Hmm, sounds to me like 4 attack dice is good, then, as any higher and I'd have to start worrying about it draining Supes of solar energy and start inflicting wounds on him for using it. :P


Oh now you made me think even more. :) Why not make it an Variable attack.
4 damage = normal
5 damage = 1 damage Unblockable to Superman
6 damage = 2 damage Unblockable to Superman can not use heat vision for the rest of the game.

no no no no no...stop lol. When i first came across this card I thought that superman was waaaay too underpowerd to be superman. But when i thought about it, superman would be at least 1000 points if he could do everything we know him to do. I agree that his heat vision needs to be just a little on-the-side ability that he uses only when he cant be engaged. The original "no LoS" ability i liked because it kind of reminded me of how he would use it, but i can see someone just sitting in an impenetrable castle zapping people, which would be completely un-superman. That was one of my favorite little things about him though just because it was a cool ability and i would never have thought of abusing it.

What I am about to say here is completely about gameplay here and is not going for accuracy so dont give me any crap. What if you added, "If superman moved this turn, he does not need line of sight to use heat vision" to the end of heat vision? I dont know if it would be awkward to play or not, but it would completly eliminate the turtling thing. So IAmBatman, this is for you...I am to the point where i am thinking superman is perfect, but i can only complain about 2 things: 1. the no Los sight ability was a pimp ability and it would be cool if you could think of an ingenious way to incorporate that into heat vision. 2. Supes is just yearning for one more defense. In the scenarios i have played with him 8 life really feels like superman, but 6 defense just doesnt cut it. theres my 2 :2cents:

[IAmBatman]

Hmm, sounds to me like 4 attack dice is good, then, as any higher and I'd have to start worrying about it draining Supes of solar energy and start inflicting wounds on him for using it. :P


Oh now you made me think even more. :) Why not make it an Variable attack.
4 damage = normal
5 damage = 1 damage Unblockable to Superman
6 damage = 2 damage Unblockable to Superman can not use heat vision for the rest of the game.

I think we should save that for the 500 point version. :P

[IAmBatman]

UtgarsWorst, those are some good suggestions. I'd like to hear what the judges have to say on this.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

On second thought, you could say that was accurate because he flew up and saw where he was at, only to come back down and zap him. lol

[GreyOwl]

I think it would work well if you specified that had to move his entire movement in order to not require LOS. That way someone couldn't just move 1 space back and forth each turn. I'm not sure what this would do to his point cost. It would probably raise it, but only slightly at most.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Sorry about not taking a greater interest here. I lost internet connection and school starts again for me the 10th. I have a lot of summer work to catch up on, so I have less time then I'd like. I was ready to stamp the newest version, but UtgersWorstFear brought up so good points.

With no LOS required if he moved, the problem is he can just move back and forth in the same two spots and that counts as moving. What about no LOS required, but after using the Heat Vision he has to attack with a normal attack the next turn. I'm a bit worried about that as it could get difficult to keep track of which turn Supes has to attack with a normal attack. Upping it to an 8 defense is fine, I think a price bump would be in order then.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

How about this: If superman is at least 3/4 (dont know which) spaces away from his original position when he ends his movement he does not need line of sight to use heat vision?

Edit: i was thinking of all the situations that you could use this ability in and i think that you would need to add " OR not in clear sight" so:

If superman is at least 3/4 spaces away or not in clear sight of his original position when he ends his movement he does not need line of sight to use heat vision.

[IAmBatman]

I'm starting to think these possible additions to Heat Vision might get too confusing ...
I would up Superman's defense to 7 at the most, not 8. What do you guys think such a bump would do to his cost? I really like his current cost, so if it's going to be a significant bump, I'm not all about that. I think a case could be made for him still being worth 380 with a defense of 7, but maybe that's just me.
But I really don't want to end up with him costing significantly more than Hulk at the end of this all.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

yea, i dont want heat vision gettin all confusing either...i guess im just gonna have to accept heat vision how it is... :cry: but as for the 7 defense, im thinkin only 5-10 points is all that is needed. ill have to play test him again though, but its kind of obvious what one more defense will do, so thats why im saying this in advance.


and if you have any good ideas about the No LoS thing, feel free to throw them out here lol

[allskulls]

An idea I had about Heat Vision was to disregard any defense bonus a figure may have. But add that the figure can't use any of his special abilities when defending against the Heat Vision. It can represent him focusing his heat from the inside. Not a no LOS idea but I think it could work. In some situations, it may be something he could use that would be better than his 8 attack.

[rdhight]

An idea I had about Heat Vision was to disregard any defense bonus a figure may have. But add that the figure can't use any of his special abilities when defending against the Heat Vision. It can represent him focusing his heat from the inside. Not a no LOS idea but I think it could work. In some situations, it may be something he could use that would be better than his 8 attack.

I think that denying and and all special abilities against such a strong shot is better left for someone who's known for distance attacks first and foremost, like Cyclops or Hawkeye. Heat Vision is a useful tool for Superman, but I don't think he usually defeats the bad guys in a shootout.

[allskulls]

Not too strong if you limit it to just negating dice bonuses from hieght and glyphs. Also if the attack is a 3-4, his best bet against the big guys would still be that 8 attack. Most of the big guys has their defense represented by defense dice and not abilities so negating abilities won't be too bad either.

[IAmBatman]

If it's all the same to you guys, I think I'm just going to keep Heat Vision as is - a range option that works better against squaddies to slow down the threat of swarms against Supes.
So ... does everyone agree I should increase his defense to seven, and if I do, what's the consensus on what it'd do to his price?

[rdhight]

I don't see how bumping up his defense and price makes him a better figure. I mean, he's already the most powerful/expensive in the game, so as I see it, you don't gain much by moving him even higher.

Superman is a generalist. I think lots of specialized superheroes should be better in a certain area. The Surfer can fly faster, and an enraged Hulk already has more attack, so that's as it should be. Magneto is better at moving things around. Other specialists should be better than Superman in range and defense, too. If you make his defense insane, the TNT defensive specialists will just have to be even more insane, and the overall effect will be inflationary. I'd say leave the defense at 6, and even dropping the attack to 7 wouldn't hurt.

I'd rather you err on the side of making him too weak than too strong. Once he's stamped, he's going to be used as a yardstick for a lot of DC customs, and if he has huge stats, it might lead to unnecessarily huge point costs on other figures because they should be a good matchup for him or the designer feels they should equal him.

[IAmBatman]

Good points, rdhight. I think, if you all agree that he's worth his points as is, I'm just going to go ahead and keep him this way, only fixing any typos/things I've overlooked in the text (like the Super Breath moving from their original placement thing), and leave it at that. Thoughts? Objections? Feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this guy ... :P

[GreyOwl]

Personally, I'm happy with it as it is (minus that small typo). I'm just desperately waiting for some free time to play test before I stamp. :)

[IAmBatman]

Sounds good - ok, *official* announcement, then - besides the small typo I need to eventually fix in the Super Breath power, this is the card I'm going with - please playtest and judge accordingly. I'll probably wait and see if there are any other changes needed before stamping before I make the change to Super Breath in the actual card (b/c I'm lazy and tired of redoing this card already, lol). :P

[IAmBatman]

A couple of playtests on a Marvel Masterset map with all Marvel figures for teammates.

Battle One
TEAM ONE
Superman
Abomination
Venom

TEAM TWO
Hulk
Silver Surfer
Spiderman

Round 1
The first couple of markers were used mostly on positioning. Supers had one marker this round and failed an attack on Silver Surfer. Hulk got height advantage on Supes and wounded the Man of Steel once to end the round.

Round 2
Superman has all three markers for his team and initiative.
Turn one – Superman’s breath fails, and he gets one wound on Hulk, who still has height advantage. Hulk turns around and wounds Superman three times.
Turn two – Superman uses his breath to knock Hulk from height and then attacks Surfer, inflicting one wound. Surfer attacks Superman, but fails to wound him.
Turn three – With an order marker still on Hulk’s card, Superman wants to use this opportunity to secure the height advantage before Hulk comes back, so he risks a swipe to do so. The swipe fails, but with no one adjacent, Supes tries his heat vision on Hulk and fails. Hulk ends the round by getting 4 wounds on Abomination.

Round 3
Team two gets initiative.
Turn one – Hulk gets another wound on Abomb. Then Abomb turns around and wounds Surfer twice.
Turn two – Surfer finishes Abomb, who had the second turn marker on him.
Turn three – Hulk leaps to Venom, who uses Spidey Sense to escape. Supes tries Heat Vision against Surfer, but blanks on the roll.

Round 4
Team two gets initiative again.
Turn one – Supes blocks an attack from Surfer. Supes moves from height to use his normal attack, fails his breath on Spidey, then inflicts two wounds on Surfer (who has height advantage).
Turn two – Hulk wounds Venom twice. Superman’s breath fails against Spidey again, but his normal attack finishes Surfer.
Turn three – Hulk finishes Venom, who had the third marker on him.

Round 5
Team one gets initiative
Turn one – Supes uses his Super Breath to freeze Spidey, who had the first order marker. He tries Heat Vision on Hulk, but it’s blocked.
Turn two – Supes flies up to Hulk, but fails his normal attack. Hulk responds by wounding Superman twice.
Turn three – Superman attacks again, and gets 3 wounds on Hulk – but that just gets Hulk angry, and he kills Superman off.

Superman did decently in this one – Abomination and Venom failing to really do any damage on Hulk before dying really hurt his chances, though. Also Hulk and Surfer had height advantage more often than not in this game. Supes wounded Surfer and Hulk four times each before failing to Hulk’s 10 dice attack. That earns Supes about 400 points for the game, which means he at least got his points back. It was a lack of help from his allies that spelled his end.

Battle Two
TEAM ONE
Thanos
Spiderman
Captain America
Iron Man
Red Skull

TEAM TWO
Venom
Silver Surfer
Abomination
Superman

Round 1
Team one initiative
Markers all on Red Skull
Turn one – Thanos flies to height, gets two wounds on Surfer. Surfer flies up and shoots Red Skull with his cosmic blast, inflicting three wounds. He fails to remove any order markers, though.
Turn two – Cap walks up to Surfer, at height disadvantage, and rolls three skulls, all of which are blocked. Surfer disengages, wounds Red Skull one more time, but again fails to remove markers.
Turn three – Red Skull moves up to try to dust of death Surfer, fails, and then fails on an attack. Surfer uses his normal attack from height to finish Red Skull and then Hyper Speed to secure the last of the highest points on the map.

Round 2
Team one initiative
Turn one – Cap moves up next to Thanos and attacks Supes, Abomination, and Surfer with his shield, inflicting two wounds on Supes, and one on Abomb. Surfer fails an attack on Thanos.
Turn two – Using height and Cap’s bonus, Thanos attacks Superman, inflicting one wound. Supes flies up, tries his breath on Thanos and fails, then takes a swing at Cap, inflicting one wound.
Turn three – Thanos attacks Supes again, but Supes blocks it. Abomb moves up and gets one wound on Cap.

Round 3
Team two initiative

Turn one – Supes blows Thanos from height, then attacks Cap, but all the skulls are blocked. Thanos flies back and gets the fourth wound on Supes
Turn two – Supes blows Thanos down again, and gets one wound on Cap. Thanos flies back and finishes Supes off.
Turn three – Surfer finishes off Cap with a Cosmic blast. Thanos attacks Abomination, but fails to wound him.

I stopped the playtest here. A lucky four skull roll on Cap’s shield attack put Supers behind the eight ball from the start. His super breath didn’t really come in handy on a small map with little elevation against such mobile figures – and he never rolled high enough to remove order markers. Thanos was absolutely deadly with that ranged attack of eight. Superman got two wounds on Cap before dying – worth about 88 points.

[IAmBatman]

Hopefully this will be the final, pre stamping redo. I lowered the Super Breath back to 16, as I don't think it's going to make him undercosted at all, as the roll rarely seems to come up either way.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/SupermanTNTrevision4-1.jpg

[johnny139]

OK, I'm SERIOUS this time: I have a party this weekend, but on Monday, I WILL playtest Superman. I WILL. 'Kay?

And odds are, after that, I'll give him a stamp.

[IAmBatman]

cool - I'm going to go ahead and edit the first post to put this up there as well.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

so what does kryptonite do? if it lowers defense then thats kind of unfair isnt it? because superman is the only one in the game that that has that kind of weakness and im not too sure about the "kill one unit" units.

but yea, superman is perfect. i did three of the same battle last night and it was supes vs. batman and spidey. suprisingly to me he had a tough time winning because spiderman doesnt take falling damage and is hard to hit. he did ok against batman though.

i still think superman needs one more defense just for the heck of it, but i dont want to hold this card back any longer. and one thing about invulnerability is he isnt invulnerable to molten lava (which i think he should be) because its if you roll a 20, you live.

[IAmBatman]

Actually, Zod, three versions of Supergirl, Ursa, Non, and even Superboy all have vulnerability to Kryptonite as well. Maybe Power Girl too, I forget.

[GreyOwl]

Is Doomsday vulnerable to kryptonite as well? I know he comes from Krypton, but he was sort of genetically engineered so I'm not sure.

[IAmBatman]

I've never read anything about Doomsday having vulnerability to Kryptonite. So if he does, it's news to me. I certainly didn't design my Doomsday that way.

[GreyOwl]

I just looked it up, and Doomsday is not vulnerable to kryptonite. :)

[IAmBatman]

Good to know. Soooo ... when're you guys gonna stamp this? :P

[johnny139]

Good to know. Soooo ... when're you guys gonna stamp this? :P

Barring unforseen problems in play - tomorrow. :D

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

How's about now? :wink:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/netherspirit/approved.gif

[IAmBatman]

Now's good. :D

[GreyOwl]

I will try to play tomorrow as well, but I don't see any issues right now except for that small typo I pointed out earlier.

[IAmBatman]

The typo you're refering to is in Super Breath, right? If so, I thought I fixed it with the latest version. If not, I'm confused as to what the typo was, so you'll have to point it out to me again.

[GreyOwl]

The typo you're refering to is in Super Breath, right? If so, I thought I fixed it with the latest version. If not, I'm confused as to what the typo was, so you'll have to point it out to me again.

Yes, that's the one. The latest version of the card I see (on page 14) still has it. "If the landing space is 10 or more levels lower than Superman..." I refreshed several times just in case I had an older copy cached, but it seems the typo is still there.

[IAmBatman]

No, you're right, I changed another part of Super Breath - I must've been in a stupor. I'll get that bright and shiny in no time, though.

[IAmBatman]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Man%20of%20Steel%20Master%20Set/SupermanTNTrevision5.jpg

[Penitus]

I have to admit, I'm stoked to have this TNT'd.

What's next, Bats? How much longer before some Batvillains?

[IAmBatman]

Lex Luthor and Joker are both on the horizon - though I might pull a sneaky one and slip Wonder Woman or Flash in there first, as I feel those two are more complete right now.

[johnny139]

OK, just faced him down with a Marro army. Long story short, he killed off MOST people, but in the end, was taken down by the Marro Warriors with height. Here's your long-deserved...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/netherspirit/approved.gif

[GreyOwl]

I just did a playtest, but had some really unlucky rolls. The short of it is that Superman dealt 2 wounds to Hulk, then received 6 wounds in return. The next round Hulk hit him again and killed him. Superman had height advantage even, but the dice were not his friend. Needless to say, it was kind of a useless test for Superman, so I will have to play him again. Honestly though, I've read all the other reports and I don't see any problems with him. I'd just hate to approve without actually play testing him myself. Feels kind of like cheating. :)

[ej]

Thought of a new power:

Hover
Opponents attacking Superman can not use height advantage. Superman always has height advantage when defending.

[johnny139]

Thought of a new power:

Hover
Opponents attacking Superman can not use height advantage.

Whoa! I used nearly the exact same power on my Red Tornado a while ago... but it's not in my thread anymore. Weird.

[ej]

Thought of a new power:

Hover
Opponents attacking Superman can not use height advantage.

Whoa! I used nearly the exact same power on my Red Tornado a while ago... but it's not in my thread anymore. Weird.

Steal Power
Whenever ej is adjacent, roll the d20. On a roll of 8 or higher ej takes the adjacent poster's power as his own. This lasts until the poster notices, at which time all hell breaks loose.

Actually, that power's a good distinctive thing for Red Tornado. I officially take back my suggestion.

Take Back Suggestion
Whenever ej feels like it, he can take back a suggestion. ej loses any order markers that might have been on his card. If there are no order markers on ej's card, ej may continue being a general nuisance on any other thread.

[IAmBatman]

What, no hijack power, ej? :P

[ej]

What, no hijack power, ej? :P

It's assumed. That's why there's this on my card: http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10265/icon_ej.gif

[IAmBatman]

All right, well, I got two out of three ...

[Eclipse]

All right, well, I got two out of three ...

Whew... not me for a change :oops:

[UtgarsWorstFear]

is an all 20-sider army supposed to be the easiest way to take out a superhero? because if it werent for units that use the 20-sider, superman would dominate every game i have played with him.

[IAmBatman]

Try the Hulk versus Superman.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

well, yea he usually loses that one. unless you can make good use of his super breath and flight, but it usually just comes down to a brawl that superman loses.

[IAmBatman]

Soooo ... GreyOwl ... ?

[GreyOwl]

Okay, we did several playtests with Superman (finally!). The teams were the same all times.

Team 1
Superman
Iron Man
Silver Surfer
Nightcrawler
(1100 points)

Team 2
Hulk
Abomination
Venom
Dr. Doom
(1085 points)

I won't go into a play-by-play of each game we played, but instead I'll just give the highlights. As far as point cost, Superman seems fine. In one of the games, Superman was killed in the second round by Hulk due to some very lucky dice rolls for Hulk and very unlucky dice rolls for Superman. Surprisingly, Nightcrawler was the last man standing in that game, though he only had 1 Life left. :)

Other times, Superman did fairly well and held his own against Hulk and/or Abomination, and used Super Breath effectively against Dr. Doom to remove his height advantage. Venom got hurt several times by Heat Vision. All in all, he seems pretty good.

The only comment I would have is that his defense seems "less than Super". It isn't bad by any means, but it's the same as Iron Man's and only 1 more than Nightcrawler's which makes him not seem too super. Yes, it's the same as Hulk but I always thought of "Defense" as a combination of speed/agility and toughness. Hulk is tough but fairly easy to hit. Superman should be tough AND fast and I really didn't get that feeling when playing him. I know Invulnerability helps, but in our games nobody had a power that made it come into play. When he had height advantage, he seemed more thematically like Superman, so I think a defense of 7 would be ideal for him. But of course, that would raise his point cost and I'm not sure you want to do that. I'm not saying you need to change this in order to get my stamp, but I thought I'd point it out anyway. It's more a thematic conern rather than a game play one, because he definitely doesn't seem broken.

Also, one question on Super Breath, since I'm sure you haven't been asked enough about it. :wink: It says to place the figure "within x spaces of its original placement" and that the figure must land "in a straight line from Superman". So technically speaking, Superman could be facing Dr. Doom, use his Super Breath, and place Dr. Doom behind Superman. There's nothing that says the figure most be moved AWAY from Superman. Was this your intent or did you mean for him to be moved only away from Superman?

Also, in the rolling 11-15 section of Super Breath you have the word "Spaces" capitalized and it shouldn't be.

[IAmBatman]

I'll take another look at Super Breath. Moving the figure away from Superman *was* my intention, but I'm not sure if it's a necessary change or not. I mean, yes, it helps it make sense thematically, but I think it also decreases the usefulness of the power, which isn't all that useful right now anyway (I mean, it has definite uses, but they seem to be increasingly limited). Also, it might just not be worth it to make all the needed tweaks to stop people from finding loopholes for where to place figures. Still, I'll look at it.
I have to admit, I kind of agree that I like the idea of giving him 7 defense. My only question is this - what *do* you think that would do to his cost? I like him costed as is, but I'd be willing to go up 10 or 20 if necessary. I'd like to keep him under 400, though, so if we're talking a bump to 450, or something, I'd just as soon keep him as is.
I'd also need the approval of the judges with stamps already registered to make such a move.
So for right now, I'll make another tweak on Super Breath, including fixing the typo, then I hope to hear from you guys about the defense boost to 7 and what that'd do to the price/your feelings on the custom.

edit: GreyOwl, I'm not seeing that typo. "Spaces" isn't capitalized in the 11-15 section on the latest version of the card posted.

edit 2: Given the current length of the Super Breath power and the fact that I don't see any easy way to get what I want to across, I think that I'll just leave it alone if it's all the same to everyone.

[GreyOwl]

Weird, I printed out the card on page 15 two days ago and the printout (right in front of me) has a capital "S". But now I'm looking at the card on the screen and you're right, it looks fine. Did you maybe correct it since I printed it?

For Super Breath, I think it can work fine either way. I just wasn't sure which way you intended it. Moving a figure toward him could make sense thematically. He could be sucking in. Not sure if he's ever done that in comics, but it seems likely that he could with no problem. So I think you could decide to make it work either way and just clarify it in an FAQ or something.

As for the cost, I really don't think the bump should be anywhere near 450. I think 10 or 20 points would suffice, though I'm not sure which would be better. Another option is to keep his cost the same and tweak other abilities to compensate. For example, you could reduce the range and/or attack of Heat Vision or even change the probabilities of Super Breath to make it slightly less likely to cause wounds.

[IAmBatman]

Super Breath can cause wounds on just about any roll, but it requires height to be working for you (which it rarely is on most maps). It's the roll that removes Order Markers that can get real devestating. Maybe I could up the base roll for Super Breath to kick in by one and the roll for it to freeze people to like 17 and lower the range on Heat Vision to 6 to further encourage Superman to get in melee, and then raise his defense to 7 and keep him the same? What do you think? I'd need approval from all the judges to do that, though, I think.

[rdhight]

Those sound like good changes to me.

[GreyOwl]

I think that change sounds good. :)

[IAmBatman]

What sayeth our other judges?

[johnny139]

I dunno, his defense seems fine as is... but if need be, I'm behind the change. Anything that makes him a melee powerhouse before all else is fine by me.

[IAmBatman]

I think these changes will definitely help him become more of a melee unit.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

Thank you Grey Owl! :bowdown: Finally someone with authority on my side. lol

I dont see why there is a need to downgrade him in other areas rather than up him 10 points because I would take a 7 defense superman over a 6 defense superman + Isamu any day.

[IAmBatman]

Ten points may not be a sufficient bump. Besides, I think lowering his range might have value by itself in terms of making him more melee. A range of 6 is more than sufficient for Heat Vision.

[UtgarsWorstFear]

ah, i see what your gettin at. but still i remember a post somewhere back in here that said superman was a generalist. I just dont think superman should feel limited or lacking in any area. and how the card is as of now he is good other than the 1 defense die, but if you limit his range he will just feel lacking in that area because 6 is a little low on the range scale.