Trial of Magneto (custom by allskulls)

[allskulls]

Next up on trial is a nomination from rdhight. All are welcome and encouraged to bring there input. Please be aware of the discussion guidelines (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9759&start=0).

AllSkulls' version of...

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

Any playtesting should only include this custom and official units or TNT customs. Playtesting with Classicscape is welcome so we can see how the custom works with official squads.

Playtest suggestions:
1. Choose a specific species to act as Mutants to utilize his Revolutionary Action ability.
2. Swap out Doctor Doom for Magneto in an all Marvel, good vs bad battle.

I am really hoping there will be no changes needed on this one...I accidently saved the flattened version in place of the layered one.

[IAmBatman]

You're lucky, the photo program I use *only* allows me to save as flattened versions. So revisions involve a lot of cut and paste with my templates ... :P
Oh, and it should be noted (I know he knows this, but I want to make sure everyone else does to), that even though Allskull's card was nominated by someone else, as its creator he still does not receive a vote. Which means he has to get a stamp from myself, Eclipse, and Firemaster all to get that coveted stick of dyn-o-mite.
I'll give this a fuller review in a bit. Glad to see you finally got it up. :D

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

It looks good, the only thing I would change wording wise is the last line of the card. I just don't like "The owner of this card may never lose control of this card." I would say "Magneto may never be controlled by your opponent."

[allskulls]

It looks good, the only thing I would change wording wise is the last line of the card. I just don't like "The owner of this card may never lose control of this card." I would say "Magneto may never be controlled by your opponent."
I truly hope I don't have to recreate the whole card for that one line :shock:

I see where you are coming from and I can take it either way. I'll wait to hear from others on this.

[allskulls]

Glad to see you finally got it up. :D
:shock:

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

It looks good, the only thing I would change wording wise is the last line of the card. I just don't like "The owner of this card may never lose control of this card." I would say "Magneto may never be controlled by your opponent."
I truly hope I don't have to recreate the whole card for that one line :shock:

I see where you are coming from and I can take it either way. I'll wait to hear from others on this.Don't recreate the whole card for such a small line. Do you save the background its own file? Then copy the part of the background that is where the problem is, paste the copied part on top, and then re-type the power in the now blank space.

[IAmBatman]

Glad to see you finally got it up. :D
:shock:

:rofl:

OK, seriously, not what I meant ...

[IAmBatman]

I think I'm ok with the "owner of this card" wording. I'm not the best at official card wording though, so I'd take Eclipse or Firemaster's advice over mine on this one. Bat-a-rang review in a few minutes (I meant to do this with Jack 'O Blade's as well, but I didn't get to it).

[GreyOwl]

One suggestion I have would be to reword the part about Magneto not being able to be targeted by any special ability from a Telepath. I know the intent is to keep p-s-y-chic powers from working on him, but a Telepath could have other specials that aren't p-s-y-chic in nature. For example, if a Telepath has Double Attack they wouldn't be able to attack Magneto with it. Or if they had Disengage, it sounds like Magneto still would get a disengagement swipe.

[IAmBatman]

It is a bit all encompassing.

[GreyOwl]

It is a bit all encompassing.

I guess that's okay if that was the intent, but I got the impression that's not what he meant.

[allskulls]

Dangit! I knew I was going to have to change something :D

[IAmBatman]

I meant that more as a concern than an explanation. I think his intent was that it kept Prof X from using mental powers on him.
One thing that's bothersome is that a lot of Telepaths have other mental powers as well - but then maybe they're mislabelled as Telepaths. Since there are no official "Telepaths" or even TNT Telepaths in the game, it's a little hard to figure. But I wouldn't mind this as a precedent setter. This way, if you want to have a unit with mental powers that work on Magneto, don't call him/her a telepath. And I doubt a lot of Telepaths will have double attack or disengage, since they tend to be a physically weak lot.
Still, if I'm on the fence about anything on this card, it's this issue.

[IAmBatman]

OK, here's my initial take:

Visuals http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
Beautiful card, everything in place, great color scheme, etc.

Power Selection/Flavor http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
A power that shows he gets p'oed if someone kills a mutant ally - very flavorful. An ability to whip around figures using his great control of magnetic fields - nice. And even a power for that little helmet on his head.

Power Function/Gameplay
I wonder if the roll for Magnetic Throw shouldn't be lower? It seems like this guy could throw pretty much anybody he wanted pretty easily. Maybe a 12 roll? I'd like to see *something* to distinguish it from regular throw, as right now it appears to be a renaming of the same power and I' prefer something a bit different (even if it's the number you have to get on the D20).
Mental Shield I'm a bit on the fence on, as I said above. Also, there's one "t" in targeted, not two, so you'll have to edit anyway. :P
I'd like to see some debate on Mental Shield and possibly a tweak on Magnetic Throw to make it different than regular throw before this one earns a bat-a-rang.

Left Box http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
Looks good to me. He's the right size, the right race, his personality was a good choice, and his class is as good as any I could think of for this guy.

Stats/Cost
He's got the stat level he should have being easily one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. I like what I see in this section, but I can't give this one the bat-a-rang until I playtest him and see if his cost works out. So imagine there's a bat-a-rang here for now, I just can't put it up yet.

Three out of five bat-a-rangs at first glance with only small changes and playtesting needed to make it five of five. I'd say this one is close for me.

[rdhight]

You were going to have to change it anyway-- because of "targetted." No one escapes from TNT unscathed-- NO ONE!

Revolutionary Action... no complaints. Fits him perfectly.

Magnetic Throw... wow. The ability to fly 5, throw any size figure at a range of 8, and then attack with range 6 and super strength? I think if you leave it with no size limitation, you might want to change it to before moving. At least limit it to small, medium, or large! But if you see him at that high of a power level, I do think it works rules-wise.

EDIT: I agree with IAmBatman's suggestion about making it more reliable. Maybe small or medium only at a roll of 12+?

Mental Shield is where I think some of the fun factor goes away. It seems unfair to immunize him from any and all powers attached to a telepath-- also very unreliable to depend on the figure's class. You don't want a situation to come up where Gorilla Grodd, Martian Manhunter, and Brainiac have telepathic powers that work against him because they have some other class, but a blast of raw energy doesn't work on him because the attacker is a telepath.

I would change this to refer solely to the specific effect or effects you want him to be immune to, not to telepaths. "Opponents can never take a turn with Magneto or gain control of this Army Card" would be a lot better.

[IAmBatman]

Well, I'm an idiot. Thank you, rdhight for showing me all the ways that Magnetic Throw differs from regular throw (size stipulations, 8 range). You can disregard what I said earlier about needing to make it different than regular throw as I was obviously off base about that whole line of thinking. :P

[Firemaster]

The only thing I can think of at the moment that might need to be changed is in Magnetic throw, change it from, "If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Magneto..." to, "If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than its height..." After all, it's thrown from its current location, which may or may not be several levels above Magneto's already. Other than that, it looks good. I think I will likely use the flying symbol in the future.

[GreyOwl]

And I doubt a lot of Telepaths will have double attack or disengage, since they tend to be a physically weak lot.
Still, if I'm on the fence about anything on this card, it's this issue.

Well, I just used those as examples. My point was that it was possible for a Telepath to have specials that have nothing to do with being a Telepath. Plus there are some Telepaths that are very physically strong - Cable comes to mind.

[IAmBatman]

While he is a Telepath, I doubt Cable would be listed as that under his Class. But, as much as I'm playing Devil's Advocate on the other side of the argument here, I think there's a valid point against making the power so all inclusive.

[allskulls]

While he is a Telepath, I doubt Cable would be listed as that under his Class. But, as much as I'm playing Devil's Advocate on the other side of the argument here, I think there's a valid point against making the power so all inclusive.
My yet to be posted Cable is a Telepath :wink:

I would change this to refer solely to the specific effect or effects you want him to be immune to, not to telepaths. "Opponents can never take a turn with Magneto or gain control of this Army Card" would be a lot better.
I'm going to use this one. (Gotta change Juggernaut too.)

"If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than its height..."
I will make this change also.

I was going to make Magnetic Throw a lower roll but decided to keep it at 14 because of his range and I did not want a size restriction for the master of magnetism.

I'm glad there's no issues with the left box or stats because the ability text will be the easiest change. Now I just hope he's right at 300pts :shock:

[IAmBatman]

I think that the roll being at 14 works better once I realized that he can hit people with the throw from 8 spaces away. It's deadliness potential is really pretty high with that kind of range, so it demonstrates the power pretty well.
With the tweaks you're looking at making there, that should equal another bat-a-rang from me (leaving only the playtesting contingent bat-a-rang).

[Boromir_and_kermit]

G'day,

Just thought I'd pop in and comment on an excellent custom. Magneto is very thematic. I will be adding his hexoclix figure to my order next week.

I was just wondering with his magnetic throw... if he is thrown down levels... he should probably take falling damage as well (Obviously those with Superstrength won't) ... but that's all I could nit pick at. :D

I am looking forward to playtesting him.

Cheers,
Ben.

(Marvelscape really has got me involved in Heroscape in general again... fantastic!!!)

[allskulls]

I think that the roll being at 14 works better once I realized that he can hit people with the throw from 8 spaces away. It's deadliness potential is really pretty high with that kind of range, so it demonstrates the power pretty well.
With the tweaks you're looking at making there, that should equal another bat-a-rang from me (leaving only the playtesting contingent bat-a-rang).
That's totally batty :D

EDIT: Added the quote so what I said makes some sense.

[IAmBatman]

I figure rolling for the two damage covers the falling damage angle well enough. It's not a regular fall - it's a controlled (forced) fall. Also, this way is pretty much wording wise in line with Jotun's throw, but with just a few changes to differentiate it.
Glad you're enjoying the TNT stuff - I hope to see more of you around here! :D

edit: good thing you added that edit, skulls, or I would've thought you were all batty. :P

[Firemaster]

I've been meaning to ask, allskulls, what fonts and sizes do you use? I use arial/arial narrow, but yours look better.

[allskulls]

I've been meaning to ask, allskulls, what fonts and sizes do you use? I use arial/arial narrow, but yours look better.
Arial Narrow Bold / Arial Narrow :wink:

[Firemaster]

I've been meaning to ask, allskulls, what fonts and sizes do you use? I use arial/arial narrow, but yours look better.
Arial Narrow Bold / Arial Narrow :wink:

I am mostly reffering to the ability text. I use arial narrow size 10, but the text seems to come out a bit squished together. Yours seems to have the letters spaced a bit better.

My card:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r253/Firemaster_M/Marvel%20Customs/CyclopsCard.jpg

Your card:
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Fair call on the fall damage, I just figured he smashed them to the ground, but I spose he really moves them and then drops them as such. Also to keep it in line with Jotun's ability, you are 100% correct.

I hope to be around a lot more now. I love the card's graphics you are using guys... I must download the template if there is one. :D

Where do you guys get your heroclix single figures from... Magneto's expensive. :o

Ben.

[IAmBatman]

The more is the merrier in these TNT threads. We're really looking to get a community stamp on these customs, even if it's only 3 or 4 people who end up being the official "judges".
Card templates can be found here. There's a link to follow in the first post to the much cooler ones Allskulls made, and then some scrappy ones I made from the official shots on the Hasbro homepage lower down.
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9377
As for Heroclix figures ... I don't have nearly as many as I'm interested in/create cards for. And no Magneto either, so I end up using a lot of proxies. I was lucky enough to get a big box of slightly used clix figures from a friend recently that about quadrupled my meager collection, though.
But, all DC clix for me so far.

[allskulls]

:wink:

[GreyOwl]

Fair call on the fall damage, I just figured he smashed them to the ground, but I spose he really moves them and then drops them as such. Also to keep it in line with Jotun's ability, you are 100% correct.

I hope to be around a lot more now. I love the card's graphics you are using guys... I must download the template if there is one. :D

Where do you guys get your heroclix single figures from... Magneto's expensive. :o

Ben.

I'm not sure if it's legal or not, so if it's not just speak up and I won't mention it again. But it is possible to make a mold and cast Magneto from an existing one (I have one already - I got lucky and found one on eBay for $7 last year around Christmas). It obviously wouldn't be legal to sell this, but to give it to someone and just charge for the cost of the molding and casting materials used might be. That cost would come to $1-2 at most, and that includes the initial mold. After that, individual casts would probably be in the $0.25-0.50 range. Of course, you'd have to paint it yourself, too. That being said, the feasibility of this really depends on the particular figure. Some can be done with a single part mold, others require a two part mold, and some are more complex and require three-part or greater molds (these probably wouldn't be worth the hassle to cast).

[IAmBatman]

Waiting to see those tweaked powers before I do any playtesting, Skulls. :P

[Eclipse]

A few thoughts. First of all, I'm a bit unsure on Revolutionary Action and Mental Shield. Neither of them feels particularly necessary to properly represent Magneto and feel like the kind of extra fluff I think we need to try to avoid here. I know I say this a lot, but characters really need to focus on a few iconic powers and avoid going into the minor skills that are generally just there for story purposes.

I actually think Magneto needs some sort of mutant leadership ability, I'm just not sure Revolutionary Action is the right one. As much as Magneto will step in once his followers go down, he's just as likely to callously look the other way when one of his flock fail him. On a side note, I really like Magnetic Throw, I just wish we had official "throwable" destructable objects so the power could be used for that purpose as well.

As far as the left side is concerned, I'd consider Zealous instead of Ruthless for his personality. I'd also consider something other than Revolutionary. I can't find the word for it yet, but something that implies leadership more would fit better in my opinion. Perhaps Exemplar?

[IAmBatman]

We'll be solving the "stuff for Magneto to throw" problem as well as possible with custom destructible items.
Zealous would be nice, and actually would fit better with Revolutionary Action than Ruthless. I'm a fan of Revolutionary Action, because 1) it's more creative than your typical bonding, and new forms of gameplay and creativity are always a good thing as long as they work within the confines of the game, IMO and 2) it makes sense to me thematically, because I can just see some human picking off some mutant lackey and Magneto getting po'ed that the inferior homo sapien would dare touch one of mutant kind. Magneto may be callous, but he still uses the excuses humans give him to attack them.
I think Magneto would be kind of dull if he just had the "iconic" magnetic throw. I don't see what's wrong with giving him extra flavor with the other powers. There's no reason units have to be completely bare bones, as long as they're balanced and easy to use.

[GreyOwl]

Removed...delete button wasn't showing up for some reason. :?

[Eclipse]

We'll be solving the "stuff for Magneto to throw" problem as well as possible with custom destructible items.


I know. The tricky part is fitting it into the objects without putting it into the card, since the card really shouldn't reference the unofficial objects directly.


Zealous would be nice, and actually would fit better with Revolutionary Action than Ruthless. I'm a fan of Revolutionary Action, because 1) it's more creative than your typical bonding, and new forms of gameplay and creativity are always a good thing as long as they work within the confines of the game, IMO and 2) it makes sense to me thematically, because I can just see some human picking off some mutant lackey and Magneto getting po'ed that the inferior homo sapien would dare touch one of mutant kind. Magneto may be callous, but he still uses the excuses humans give him to attack them.
I think Magneto would be kind of dull if he just had the "iconic" magnetic throw. I don't see what's wrong with giving him extra flavor with the other powers. There's no reason units have to be completely bare bones, as long as they're balanced and easy to use.

I agree he needs more than just the magnet throw, I just feel like its currently a little much and generally ignores that he's a flying, ranged figure as well. He needs to be powerful, but right now I think he's got a few abilities that are a little unnecessary. I like Revolutionary Action, I'm just not sure if Magneto's the best fit for it. It feels a little too reactionary and rash, fitting, at times for Magneto but not something that makes him feel like the leader that he really is.

[IAmBatman]

That's a decent point, but I think something important to remember is that all the characters we're working with go through several phases during their existence. I don't think it's necessary that a custom represent all the phases equally or even the greatest/longest phase, if it's at least representing one phase well. So it might help to keep two things in mind while judging this - 1) It's likely meant to represent a more revolutionary/reactionary phase for Magneto before he really came into his own as a leader and 2) we're not limited to one all encompassing TNT card per character - rather there will likely be a number of different interpretations of different characters that receive TNT treatment, so it's ok for them to be more representational of one time period or another rather than the full span of a character's super career.

[GreyOwl]

So as a side note, how should we work that as far as uniqueness? Can you have two different versions of Magneto in your army?

[IAmBatman]

I'd say you'd have to pick and choose. Otherwise it'd be weird (plus all the expense of buying the extra figures ...). Although, they're superheroes, so I'm sure that there could be abundant Time Travel scenarios.
That said, I think SOTM will help us answer this question when we find out how the new Drake and Raelin function in this regard.

[allskulls]

Also, NEVER post your version of the custom on trial in its thread.
:D

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I figured you'd point that out sooner or later. :P

[GreyOwl]

Oops, I didn't realize. I tried to delete the post but the delete button wasn't showing up. So I just edited it to remove the content.

[allskulls]

Thanks :D

[allskulls]

Waiting to see those tweaked powers before I do any playtesting, Skulls. :P
Go ahead and test as if the changes were made. I won't be able to post the changes util tomorrow.

[allskulls]

Magneto revised...

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Other than playtesting I give this guy :up: :up: . Maybe I can get around to testing him, but I don't have marvel set so I'd have to use proxies.

[allskulls]

Other than playtesting I give this guy :up: :up: . Maybe I can get around to testing him, but I don't have marvel set so I'd have to use proxies.
Or just test him with Classicscape. Would like to hear the results from those games too. I will get some testing in tonight.

[IAmBatman]

Ah, didn't catch that last little note from you about using the changes last night. But I'll try to get in some playtesting today. :D

[netherspirit]

I don't think the Magnetic Throw should have a d20 roll to see if he can do it, for a couple of reasons. The first is 2 d20 rolls for one power could get a little annoying during game play. The second is that Magneto always seemed to me to be really in control of his powers, he is one of, if not the most powerful mutant on the planet. I really don't think that if he tried to throw someone or use his powers, that there would be a chance that they wouldn't work.

What about removing the first d20 roll and let him throw whomever he wants, but keep the d20 roll for the damage? That would also free up some space on the card and you could throw in another smaller power. :D

[allskulls]

Interesting idea. Would definitely make him more powerful. What if he can throw anyone he wounds with a normal attack? That would take away his ability to target 2 figures though.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Interesting idea. Would definitely make him more powerful. What if he can throw anyone he wounds with a normal attack? That would take away his ability to target 2 figures though. Eh I don't like the wound then throw idea. I don't know why but I'd rather have the chance to throw someone and then attack someone else. As for two rolls of the D20 its fine with me, but I could see very very slight confusion coming from the power. I don't think it would make that big of a deal though.

[IAmBatman]

I think if you go this direction, then don't do the wound first thing, but do tone down his regular attack a bit, since the throw is a sure thing. I think I actually like this idea a bit better - Magneto *should* be able to chuck anyone he wants pretty much wherever, after all.

[ej]

I'm not going to read this entire thread, but in case it hasn't been mentioned I'd like to compliment you on making Magnetic Throw both an offensive power and at the same time a potentially helpful extra movement power for a teammate. I'd recommend, like others have, to make the power more reliable, or adjust it to say "if the figure is an ally add 6 (or whatever) to the roll."

I really like the nod to his anti-telepathy helmet.

[IAmBatman]

Playtest 1
Army 1
Magneto
MBS
Kaemon Awa
Eldgrim

Army 2
Q9
Krav Maga Agents
Raelin
Major X17
Deathreavers x1
REPORT
Army 1 sent out Eldgrim first, overextending him, and setting him up for a quick death to Magneto. The next couple of rounds were spent positioning, and Magneto managed to use his magnetic throw to lift Kaemon Awa to good position. As he nears the other army, Magneto gets most of the Order Markers. He threw Raelin twice (she took damage the first time only), failed a lot of other rolls, wounded Q9 once, then finished off Raelin with his normal attack. Q9 got two wounds in early on a 3 skull shot and when Magneto rolled only one shield. Then I stupidly left Magneto on lava field at the end of a round and he took another hit (Raelin, stuck on the lava field where Magneto had thrown her, was spared). Magneto now had three wounds. By this point, the rats had tied up Kaemon and MBS, but all of the Order Markers were going to Magneto to stop the threat of Q9. Finally, a roll of 6 skulls from Magneto (from height) finished off Q9. Unfortunately for his allies, it was at the start of the round and all three Order Markers were on the Soulborg, giving Magneto three straight turns without any retaliation. He used up most of these getting into position, but managed to kill one Krav agent at the end of the round with his normal attack, and throw a second to death at the start of the next round. Magneto was hampered with an engagement with X17 at this point, and X17 managed to score a hit, pushing Magneto’s wounds to 4. Magnetic Throw kept him in the game, though. He managed to successfully throw the remaining Krav agent, but couldn’t get the damage roll. His normal attack still couldn’t break X17’s defense. At the start of the next round, another throw finally kills the last Krav. Then Magneto finally cracks X17’s melee defense and lands two wounds. This was a fortunate turn for Magneto’s allies, as X17 rolled all skulls on his next attack and put Magneto down for the count.
RESULTS
Magneto killed Q9, all three Krav agents, and Raelin, and put two wounds on X17 for a total of 400 points worth of damage. His defense was pretty darn tough to crack, but X17 and Q9 both got some decent shots in on him. Even if it weren’t for my lava field gaff, X17 would’ve finished him on that last attack. Even with the roll needed, it wasn’t too hard to toss a lot of people around. I think if you ended up lowering the roll for that, you’d have to up the roll for damage to compensate (otherwise you’d be killing units way too easily with him) – also, you have to lower his normal attack a bit. Right now he’s earning his points mostly with the normal attack, but the magnetic throw is pretty darn cool too.
ANALYSIS
I really don’t think he needs any changes, though. His throw is deadly enough with its range, its ability to throw figures of any size, and it’s lower roll for medium and small figures. With flying and his big attack and defense, he’s worth every bit of his 300 points. Honestly, if there’s any change needed, it might be to up his price a tad or lower his normal attack some, since that’s a pretty powerful attack from range, and it’s pretty easy to get up to 6 with height advantage. Overall, he was a lot of fun, felt pretty thematic, and proved a beast on the battleground.

[ej]

To add to my compliments, I'd say his defense of 7 reflects his ability to stop most projectiles.

I like this trial system. Can't wait to see more.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I think he looks very good.

If you did take away the D20 roll to be able to use the magnetic throw it would ramp his cost up significantly. I know you know this better than most, but sometimes powers have to be altered slightly to fit into the game.

I do however on a purely thematic level, Magneto should not have to roll to use Magnetic Throw... gamewise though I think he should.

Cheers,
Ben.

[allskulls]

Made the suggested changes before reading the battle report by IAmBatman...

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

Revolutionary Action now only works for Mutant Unique Heroes just in case squads show up.

Magnetic Throw no longer requires a roll and Super Stregnth figures only take 1 wound for throwing damage.

Also lowered attack to 4.

Big game tonight...will post results late tonight or tomorrow.

[IAmBatman]

I'll have to see how he plays with these revisions. My gut instinct is that the D20 for damage might have to be upped a bit higher than 11, though. I do like that he'll be able to throw every single turn, though - it'll make him a very fun support piece, if nothing else - kinda like he has Carry on steroids.
Looking forward to seeing other playtesting results.

[rdhight]

I actually think it might be better to take out the "super strength reduces throwing damage" bit to keep comformity with Jotun. That way, if the players house-rule that Super Strength reduces throwing damage, they'll do the same damage. If they decide to play powers as written, they'll still do the same damage.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I actually think it might be better to take out the "super strength reduces throwing damage" bit to keep comformity with Jotun. That way, if the players house-rule that Super Strength reduces throwing damage, they'll do the same damage. If they decide to play powers as written, they'll still do the same damage.Ok you wrote "same damage" for both situations and completely lost me. Care to explain again.

[IAmBatman]

He's basically saying stay consistent with Jotun's throw, and let people houserule the Superstrength stipulation for both powers if they prefer, so it's either Superstrength stipulation for both or for neither.

edit: I had to read that one twice too, but I'm pretty sure I got it right.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

He's basically saying stay consistent with Jotun's throw, and let people houserule the Superstrength stipulation for both powers if they prefer, so it's either Superstrength stipulation for both or for neither.

edit: I had to read that one twice too, but I'm pretty sure I got it right.Ok got it now. It doesn't bother me either way although I think it makes sense flavor-ly to have Super Strength guys not be hurt as easy.

[IAmBatman]

That's kind of what I was thinking as well. I kind of like that it will be harder to wound Hulk with this. I can see the case for consistency, but these are superheroes, so superstrength is a much bigger concern with them than with Jotun, who's just a silly Giant after all. :P
Plus, it helps temper the power a little, which I think is important.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I understand wanted to keep it in line with Jotun's throw, but as has been stated, he is a super hero. Superstrength was introduced in Heroscape-Marvel specifically for superheroes to negate falling damage and help batter doors, walls and whatever else they come up with.

I think specifying that figures with Superstrength can only take 1 wound is both thematical and in line with the subtle changes already made for Marvel Heroscape.

Just my opinion. :D
Cheers,
Ben.

[IAmBatman]

Magneto Playtest #2
I wanted to see how Magneto would do with his throw automatic, so I drafted him along with some Omnicron's, who I thought would really benefit from the lift to height. For an opponent, I picked an army that I thought would give the Omnicrons and Magneto fits.

Same map - decent elevation in the middle portion of the map, with lava field at the highest points, and a couple ruins on the way to the middle on either side, and roads on the outside for quicker travel from one start zone to the next.

Army 1
Magneto
Omnicron Snipers x2
500 points

Army 2
Braxas
Sgt. Drake
AE
Dead Eye Dan
490 points

Report: The AE dropped round one (this always seems to happen to me), dropped twelve spaces away from Magneto and his allies, on height, and got all the Order Markers for their team. Magneto got all those for his team in response, as I felt the Omnicrons were ill equipped to challenge the AE at a height disadvantage. Magneto won initiative (magnetic field manipulation? You tell me. :wink: ) and proceeded to tear one of the soldiers from his advantageous perch. The roll for damage failed, but since Magneto was on a two hex elevation, his ranged attack with height advantage shredded the AE's 2 defense. The remaining three AE struck back on their turn - with a vengence. The first attack nicked him, doing one damage, the second humbled him, doing three damage, and the last attack, with a collective sigh of relief from his Soulborg allies, missed Magneto, sparing him for the moment. On his next turn, Magneto returned the favor, though with considerably less fervor. He got within one space of evening the height discrepancy (so close, so close) and plucked a second AE from above - this time killing him in the process. However, his regular attack failed him, with 4 die producing only one skull, just blocked by the AE's 3 defense from on high. The AE had another chance to finish Magneto then, but Magneto's magnetic defenses responded to the strikes with 5 and 3 shields respectively. Magneto engaged the two surviving AEs, tossing the only one that still had height advantage down below. The thrown AE survived and Magneto was forced to attack the one on even ground due to engagement. His attack failed. Still, with the height advantage swinging the other way, Magneto was too tough for the AE to finish off on their last turn of the round.
Round two - quite the gambit for both sides as all the Order Markers go on Magneto and the AE again. AE win initiative. And the first AE to attack, the one at a height disadvantage, rolls three skulls. And with 8 dice, Magneto rolls a grand total of ... two shields. Magneto dead. Omnicrons know they don't stand a chance and forfeit.
Analysis: The lesson that should be learned here is that few armies stand a chance against the AE when they drop round one. 8)
Oh, yeah, and Magneto played fine even with the auto throw. Plus he was a lot of fun, even going down so soon. I think if it weren't for absorbing those three wounds on one attack, he would've finished the AE and torn up the rest of that army.

[IAmBatman]

After two playtests and the latest version of the card, here's my updated scorecard.

Visuals http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
Beautiful card, everything in place, great color scheme, etc.

Power Selection/Flavor http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
A power that shows he gets p'oed if someone kills a mutant ally - very flavorful. An ability to whip around figures using his great control of magnetic fields - nice. And even a power for that little helmet on his head.

Power Function/Gameplay
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
The auto Magnetic Throw isn't overpowered as I initially feared it might be. It's also very thematic and a heck of a lot of fun. Though it really hasn't come up in any of my playtesting, I like the revised Mental Shield power.

Left Box http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
Looks good to me. He's the right size, the right race, his personality was a good choice, and his class is as good as any I could think of for this guy.

Stats/Costhttp://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/IBeBats/Batarang.jpg
After playtesting, I'm satisfied with this one as well.

So, I'll wait a bit to see if there are any further developments, but if I had to make my call here and now, I'd be giving this the stamp.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

My :up: :up: still hold true, but I'm not a judge so I'll leave the decision to them.

[IAmBatman]

I'm waiting to hear the other two chime in, to see if they have any major objections I've overlooked. If they don't, though, it's stampy time.

[Firemaster]

I like the new version a lot. I don't think there is anything wrong with it at all. It is....

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/netherspirit/approved.gif


Allskulls, do you think you could stick the approved stamp in the first post of the guideline thread so that it can be easier to get to in the future?

[IAmBatman]

Well, I'm bored and watching Batman Forever, which is the third worse Batman movie I've ever seen (just edging Batman Returns, which is just a smidgeon more horrid than Forever, and nowhere close to the movie-name-which-shall-remain-unspoken AKA worst piece of crap on screen ever starring otherwise charming George Clooney), so I decided to do another Magneto playtest, since I wanted to see how he'd do without the AE getting the drop on him.
Thus, same map, same armies, except I swapped out the AE for Kaemon Awa to give Army 2 an even 500.

Report: It was two turns into the second round before anyone attacked. Army 2 spent its turns trying to capture the high ground, with Dead Eye being the first to move into shooting position. Magneto, meanwhile, had plenty of fun playing catapult - moving himself and 4 Omnicrons into position. The first attack was from Deadeye, who didn't see the point in a normal attack on Magneto (the only figure not hidden by trees), and couldn't use the Ullar Enhanced Rifle due to moving that turn. So he tried for Sharpshooter. No go. Last marker of the round was on the Omnicrons who could only move as Deadeye was out of range and they'd have to sacrifice pretty high positioning to get any closer.

On to round 3, where things got bloody. Deadeye gets all the markers on his side, while the Omnicrons get the first for Army 1, with Magneto finishing out the round. Deadeye wins initiative. Already in decent position, the cowboy sacrifices his move and shoots Magneto with the Ullar Enhanced rifle. One wound for Magneto. The Omnicrons manage to move one sniper into range with height advantage (though he has to step on Lava Field to do it). Result? Two skulls rolled, Deadeye blanks on defense - one dead cowpoke.

With Deadeye's next three markers gone, Magneto had some room to operate (though he also had a responsibility to move the two Omnicron standing on lava field before the round ended). So no throws on enemy figures for Magneto this round either - but a lot of Omnicron positioning, and one attack on Braxas from height resulting in three wounds on the black Dragon queen.

With a big fat target on her head already, Braxas got all the Order Markers next round, while team 1 repeated its Omnicrons 1, Magneto 2 and 3 order. Initiative Braxas. Acid breath equals two dead Omnicrons (rolls of 19 and 20) and one relieved Magneto (roll of 12). It also means the Omnicron turn marker is basically worthless except to move a few more forward, not yet in range. Braxas engages Magneto at even height, knowing full well she'll be tossed down on Magneto's next turn. Her normal attack doesn't phase Magneto, who next tosses her, without damaging her, then attacks her from height, again without damaging her.

This throw did lead me to a small rules realization/question that makes me realize why perhaps Jotun can only throw medium and small figures. When throwing a double based figure, do both bases have to be with the 4 spaces or only 1? It doesn't matter a whole lot, but I could see others wondering about it, so I thought I'd ask.

Back to the battle, though - Braxas hops back up, and attacks again, repeating her futility. Magneto tosses her again, fails to damage her again, but then scores three sweet wounds from height.

Round 4, Braxas gets one wound marker, and Kaemon Awa gets the rest. Magneto, confident, gets all 3 for his crew. Team 2 wins initiative. A frustrated Braxas rolls for acid breath on Magneto. And gets a 17! Magneto's dead. With their leader dead the Omnicrons again surrender.

Results: Magneto scores 6 wounds on Braxas and gets his Omnicrons in position to devestate Deadeye. And then falls, again, to some unlucky D20 mojo.

Analysis: I'm wondering if I'm playing Magneto against the wrong armies, just having bad die rolls, or if maybe he's just slightly overcosted. Or I'm probably just being too bold rushing him in AND having bad D20 mojo. Either way, even losing with this guy, he's a lot of fun. And I definitely don't find him overpowered.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and follow Firemaster's lead here. If the D20 is going his way, Magneto has the potential to be devestating - and Hulk would've fallen in similar situations to the AE and Braxas. So here's my
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/netherspirit/approved.gif

[rdhight]

Analysis: I'm wondering if I'm playing Magneto against the wrong armies, just having bad die rolls, or if maybe he's just slightly overcosted.

It's probably right that he seems like not quite enough for his points, as you were playing without any mutant allies or mindshackler enemies, meaning two of his powers never kicked in. With Doom on the other team and a few low-cost evil mutants to slap early order markers on with no risk of losing them while Magneto lives, he'll seem tougher.

[IAmBatman]

Good points, rdhight! You're making me even more confident in my stamp.

[ej]

I'm starting to see a flaw in the system... making a custom that's cooler than the official version.

[IAmBatman]

:lol: Good point. But we don't have a Magneto to compare him to yet.

[GreyOwl]

Just in case anyone is interested in seeing the results, I made a mold and cast a copy of my HeroClix Magneto today. I was curious to see how it would turn out. It could be done better (I was rushed due to my daughter's birthday), but I think with some sanding and a nice paint job, it would be just fine.

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/magneto1.jpg
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/magneto2.jpg
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/magneto3.jpg


Fair call on the fall damage, I just figured he smashed them to the ground, but I spose he really moves them and then drops them as such. Also to keep it in line with Jotun's ability, you are 100% correct.

I hope to be around a lot more now. I love the card's graphics you are using guys... I must download the template if there is one. :D

Where do you guys get your heroclix single figures from... Magneto's expensive. :o

Ben.

I'm not sure if it's legal or not, so if it's not just speak up and I won't mention it again. But it is possible to make a mold and cast Magneto from an existing one (I have one already - I got lucky and found one on eBay for $7 last year around Christmas). It obviously wouldn't be legal to sell this, but to give it to someone and just charge for the cost of the molding and casting materials used might be. That cost would come to $1-2 at most, and that includes the initial mold. After that, individual casts would probably be in the $0.25-0.50 range. Of course, you'd have to paint it yourself, too. That being said, the feasibility of this really depends on the particular figure. Some can be done with a single part mold, others require a two part mold, and some are more complex and require three-part or greater molds (these probably wouldn't be worth the hassle to cast).

[allskulls]

Nice job, GreyOwl :up:

Well, over the weekend, I played a few games with Magneto but only one was with all official units and my Gladitron/Blastitron combo was so good that Magneto wasn't even needed (I faced Hulk, MBS and some zombies...cyberclaw on Hulk is mean).

In the action that Magneto did see, he was very thematic and as my opponents suggest "a real pest". Most thought the free Magnetic Throw was too much but in the end he proved to be worth his 300pts. He was a super threat to all opponents but his 5 life against super attacking super figures brings him down to earth. In the games that he actually was in the battle, he fell.
I still want to get a solid 1on1 game in with him but I'm confident in the reports of others of his balance. I think the only change I will make is taking out the Super Strength line in his Magnetic Throw. I like the idea of adding that to the TNT Rulebook: "Huge and large figures or figures with the Super Strength power receive 1 less wound when given throwing damage."

It would be good to hear from those that suffered the wraith of Master of Magnetism...Caliscapers?

[Eclipse]

I think the only change I will make is taking out the Super Strength line in his Magnetic Throw. I like the idea of adding that to the TNT Rulebook: "Huge and large figures or figures with the Super Strength power receive 1 less wound when given throwing damage."

No way, no altering the official rules like that. If Jotun throws Hulk he takes the damage the official rules specify. No alteration.

[Tiberius]

Great magneto build, I really like him and definately worth his points. But I am suprised he doesnt have one of two things. Something special against soulborgs (like an auto kill or improved effectiveness against them) or some defensive measure of a force field. Personally, as much as I like the first ability about the revolutionary getting the order markers from his fallen comrades, for 300 points, I would want to see some more staying power and more on the theme of his magnetism. I love the throw and the mental sheild.

[IAmBatman]

The 7 defense dice add a lot to his survivability and do a decent job of representing his ability to deflect attacks with his powers, IMO. And with the throw and his attack, he can usually finish off two squaddies in one attack, which slows down the swarming a bit.

[allskulls]

The 7 defense dice add a lot to his survivability and do a decent job of representing his ability to deflect attacks with his powers, IMO. And with the throw and his attack, he can usually finish off two squaddies in one attack, which slows down the swarming a bit.
On the money :D

[Tiberius]

Yeah, I can see that now. I guess reading back through the thread he seemed to go down really easy, but I guess he is a flying Q9 with the ability to throw people. That in itself says something.

[IAmBatman]

I found him to be consistently worth his points in playtesting (thus my stamp). :D

[Eclipse]

Btw, what judges are lined up to test this character?

[IAmBatman]

Judges for this custom are you, me, and Firemaster. I've already playtested him a variety of times (battle reports are in this thread) and given him my stamp. Firemaster has also stamped him.

[Eclipse]

:oops:

Been so busy with Batman/Comic Con news I didn't even think to ask. I'll look into him asap.

[Grungebob]

This guy is superb!! My goodness this is an excellent custom! I cannot find a thing to pick at. Great community involvement!

[Boromir_and_kermit]

He will certainly see lots of play in my games. Will paint him up and rebase him shortly :wink:

Then I can get rid of my cardboard stand up proxy! :D

[NecroBlade]

As I just posted in allskulls' thread, I'd like to see the Throw numbers changed to 6 and 6 rather than 8 and 4, as that seems more like a Pull than a Throw to me.

[ej]

Anyone tried using the Throw as a way to move teammates to other parts of the map?

[IAmBatman]

Anyone tried using the Throw as a way to move teammates to other parts of the map?

Yeah, I played Magneto with a couple sets of Omnicron Snipers, using him as a conveyor belt to get them to height. It was a lot of fun.

[Eclipse]

I played him a bit over the weekend, not enough to give him the stamp yet, but enough to get a general vibe:

99% of the time, he was completely and totally fine. Worked well, lots of fun, and generally pretty well balanced.

The 1% was when I pulled him off of the Marvel terrain and onto a map I'm testing for the Battlefields. Maybe I'm missing something here, but he seems completely broken with a single molten lava tile. Pick and drop, pick and drop, he pretty much single handedly cleared the entire marvel lineup by standing near the tile and melting every figure that tried to harm him. Is there something I'm missing here or does the complete inability to dodge the magnetic throw break him with molten lava?

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I played him a bit over the weekend, not enough to give him the stamp yet, but enough to get a general vibe:

99% of the time, he was completely and totally fine. Worked well, lots of fun, and generally pretty well balanced.

The 1% was when I pulled him off of the Marvel terrain and onto a map I'm testing for the Battlefields. Maybe I'm missing something here, but he seems completely broken with a single molten lava tile. Pick and drop, pick and drop, he pretty much single handedly cleared the entire marvel lineup by standing near the tile and melting every figure that tried to harm him. Is there something I'm missing here or does the complete inability to dodge the magnetic throw break him with molten lava? No your not missing anything. He becomes very broken when playing with lava field. Maybe at the end say "A thrown figure may not be placed on a molten lava space."

[IAmBatman]

You may have a point. I neglected to test him with hot lava death on the map. He seems worth his points without this ability as well - though I'm not sure it'd make sense thematically, perhaps a "no dropping in molten lava" stipulation is needed?

[allskulls]

I have the "no lava" rule in my Jean Grey custom and maybe it should be here too, especially since the throw does not require a roll. I just rarely use the lava. The only problem with adding that is that, thematically, Magneto would do that kind of thing. If I do change it would "choose a non-lava space" work instead of adding a whole new sentence?

NB- I chose 8-4 instead of 6-6 so he could pull out of range characters into his range and blast them. Yes it is a pull but that is Magneto, he can move whoever wherever. I chose the term "throw" since the ability works the same way but from range.

[rdhight]

I have the "no lava" rule in my Jean Grey custom and maybe it should be here too, especially since the throw does not require a roll. I just rarely use the lava. The only problem with adding that is that, thematically, Magneto would do that kind of thing. If I do change it would "choose a non-lava space" work instead of adding a whole new sentence?

NB- I chose 8-4 instead of 6-6 so he could pull out of range characters into his range and blast them. Yes it is a pull but that is Magneto, he can move whoever wherever. I chose the term "throw" since the ability works the same way but from range.

Yeah, I like the "pull into range" aspect. And it leaves the "push" version available for someone who fires violent telekinetic blasts that just couldn't pull you in. As for lava... I don't see any reason to rule it out. If you put lava in your map, any character who can move enemy figures will be much more dangerous. That's just the way it is.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I agree, pick your battles, it would be much more strategic making sure your weren't able to be thrown into the lava. Play the terrain. Armies have picked their battlegrounds for centuries. Use it to your advantage, or take it into account when playing.

I strongly disagree with putting in a clause that says no dropping on a lava space. It would not gel with me at all.

[IAmBatman]

With no way to avoid the throw, though, Magneto pretty much has one auto kill per turn. If he stays within 4 spaces of the molten lava, he can grab anyone that comes within 8 spaces and dump them to their hot lava death. That's a lot of range, with only a very few figures being able to sit outside of that range perimeter. Basically, you couldn't send Silver Surfer, or Hulk, or anyone like that after this guy once he's camped out by a single Molten Lava tile - or if you do, you better get to him, and you better kill him on the first attack. I don't honestly know who I would draft to try to counter him on a map with molten lava terrain on it.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

The problem is he effectively has a 12 range from the lava tile to any figure. No one in the game can out range him, so he basically can kill EVERY figure in one turn.

[IAmBatman]

Well not the same turn, but yeah. Basically I'd say putting down even one molten lava tile on the map with this guy doubles his value (which, at 300 points already, is nothing to sneeze at).

[rdhight]

You don't know what to take!? Commons, man!

Turn 1. Four 4th mass walk into range and fire 4 shots of 2. Magneto kills one.
Turn 2. Four more 4th mass walk into range and fire 4 shots of 2. Magneto kills one.
Turn 3. The six survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.
Turn 4. The five survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.
Turn 5. The four survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.
Turn 6. Four more 4th mass walk into range and fire 4 shots of 2. Magneto kills one.
Turn 7. The six survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.

... and so on. Of course, a well-played Magneto won't be giving up all four shots every turn on most maps, but then with zombies, you're talking about attacking with three and pouring in six others, and Venoc Vipers or either kind of Ashigaru might work, too. There are probably several common squads that can get the job done for less than 300 points.

But I agree that some kind of limitation would be good for price control purposes-- and not just on lava maps. A 300-point figure that needs at least one other mutant to work at full power is a lot of points. The last thing he needs is a price bump. And I don't think "can't throw onto lava" is the fix we're looking for either. Here are some alternatives that don't involve going back to a d20 version:

1. Include a scatter effect, such as Magneto choosing a space within X of him, and then the thrown figure's controller choosing that space or any space adjacent to it, and landing there. All you have to do is make sure you don't have a 7-hex pool of lava, and it's going to take some work to make someone fall in. This one appeals to me as it captures the feel that friendly figures fall right where he wants, but there's a way for enemies to resist. Might not help 2-hex figures.

2. Can't throw fliers. Maybe combine this with No. 1-- friendlies and enemy walkers plop down right where Magneto wants, but enemy fliers have a 7-hex LZ to choose from.

4. Can't throw engaged figures, or can't throw at all if engaged. This one also has the advantage of weakening the lava-killing effect of the throw but leaving the elevator aspect unchanged.

3. Can't throw huge.

5. Can't throw on the same turn he moves.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Or you could change it from an auto throw to a D20 roll if it really bothered you.

You could also reduce his range to 6 instead of 8.

I'd recruit Nightcrawler :wink:

[Eclipse]

You don't know what to take!? Commons, man!

Turn 1. Four 4th mass walk into range and fire 4 shots of 2. Magneto kills one.
Turn 2. Four more 4th mass walk into range and fire 4 shots of 2. Magneto kills one.
Turn 3. The six survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.
Turn 4. The five survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.
Turn 5. The four survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.
Turn 6. Four more 4th mass walk into range and fire 4 shots of 2. Magneto kills one.
Turn 7. The six survivors stay where they are and fire 4 shots of 3. Magneto kills one.

... and so on. Of course, a well-played Magneto won't be giving up all four shots every turn on most maps, but then with zombies, you're talking about attacking with three and pouring in six others, and Venoc Vipers or either kind of Ashigaru might work, too. There are probably several common squads that can get the job done for less than 300 points.


Two problems with this idea:

1. Magneto's going to kill 2 4th Mass a turn, not one. One dies to the throw, the other dies to his normal attack.

2. Magneto has flying and 7 defense. Assuming he has height because of the former, the latter becomes 8. 2 attack is going to do almost nothing.

While I really like the guy in general, I simply can't stamp him given the situation. I'm not completely sure what can be done, but I think one thing that might help is moving the figure based on its location, not Magneto's. That, at the very least lets people keep their distance from lava to avoid it. It still makes him exceedingly powerful given a reasonable amount of lava, but it helps a bit.

I think, though, what you're going to find is range+ranged throw is just very very powerful overall.

[allskulls]

What you guys are missing is that the landing space is not 4 spaces from Magneto but 4 spaces from the targeted figure. So the 8 range has nothing to do with the ability to throw into lava. Stay at least 5 spaces away from lava and you are safe.

B&K makes a good point about picking your battles and I'd hate to have to up his cost just for a specific type of terrain that is not seen on most maps. It's like costing Taelord higher because of the castle...OK maybe that's not the best example :D

[Eclipse]

What you guys are missing is that the landing space is not 4 spaces from Magneto but 4 spaces from the targeted figure.

That's not what the power says:

You may throw the figure by placing it on an empty space within 4 spaces of Magneto

[allskulls]

What you guys are missing is that the landing space is not 4 spaces from Magneto but 4 spaces from the targeted figure.

That's not what the power says:

You may throw the figure by placing it on an empty space within 4 spaces of Magneto
Sorry, we made the change earlier and I asked for it to be playtested as if the changes were in place. I'll get the new card up soon.

[allskulls]

Current version...
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

[Eclipse]

That helps a lot. I'm still not sure if he's not overpowered, but at least you can actually do something about it now. Far more fair, but I'm still a little worried that there's not really a reasonable way to stop him on a map with Lava.

[NecroBlade]

This guy's going to be sick around lava...

[Eclipse]

This guy's going to be sick around lava...

:rofl:

Read back a few posts.

[allskulls]

And the Obsidians are better on lava, the Abomidable Snowmen are better in snow with glaciers, Taelord is better on a castle wall, Microcorp are better in water (not all maps have water), and so on...

If you want to counter Magneto on a lava map, pick the Obsidians. If yyou are playing a lava heavy map, consider not even using Magneto. But if you must, expect your opponent to stay away from the lava as much as possible and maybe even turtling. The only real problems will be in specific scenarios. But scenarios can alter the rules of character abilities...see the Amulet of Power scenario (completely erases Rejected by Death).

[Grungebob]

And the Obsidians are better on lava, the Abomidable Snowmen are better in snow with glaciers, Taelord is better on a castle wall, Microcorp are better in water (not all maps have water), and so on...

If you want to counter Magneto on a lava map, pick the Obsidians. If yyou are playing a lava heavy map, consider not even using Magneto. But if you must, expect your opponent to stay away from the lava as much as possible and maybe even turtling. The only real problems will be in specific scenarios. But scenarios can alter the rules of character abilities...see the Amulet of Power scenario (completely erases Rejected by Death).Either fix his power or simply do not allow his drafting on lava maps.

[allskulls]

And the Obsidians are better on lava, the Abomidable Snowmen are better in snow with glaciers, Taelord is better on a castle wall, Microcorp are better in water (not all maps have water), and so on...

If you want to counter Magneto on a lava map, pick the Obsidians. If yyou are playing a lava heavy map, consider not even using Magneto. But if you must, expect your opponent to stay away from the lava as much as possible and maybe even turtling. The only real problems will be in specific scenarios. But scenarios can alter the rules of character abilities...see the Amulet of Power scenario (completely erases Rejected by Death).Either fix his power or simply do not allow his drafting on lava maps.
Even if the lava map has only 1 lava space? It seems that the lava is breaking the power :?

But I do realize that I need to find a way to make it fit on any map. I must consider lava just like we consider the DW glassjaw when making custom abilities :wink:

[Eclipse]

Even if the lava map has only 1 lava space? It seems that the lava is breaking the power :?

But I do realize that I need to find a way to make it fit on any map. I must consider lava just like we consider the DW glassjaw when making custom abilities :wink:

Yeah, there's just certain things like this in the game. Any time I build a map I always kick myself when I realize the Airborne Elite completely break the entire concept. Especially anything with castle doors :(

[GreyOwl]

The only comment I have regarding this card has to with figures that have Superstrength taking less throwing damage than figures without it. I think this was probably discusssed already but it creates an inconsistency with official figures like Jotun. When Jotun throws someone, it doesn't matter if they have superstrength or not. I know that's probably because Marvel wasn't created at the time, but still. It also creates more value to having the superstrength symbol that was not accounted for in the point costs of those figures. Personally, I don't mind giving extra bonuses to superstrength figures in house rules (like the knockback rules) but I don't think it should be present on the cards as it can imbalance the official figures.

Aside from that, I think the card is great. It's pretty much convinced me to trash my Magneto and use this one instead. I don't think the lava issue is a big deal, but if you're concerned you may want to bump his cost up a little to compensate for it.

[NecroBlade]

If you take out the Superstrength bit, you should be able to fit a line about lava. That is, if you're going to take out the Superstrength bit.

[IAmBatman]

I think the change from basically a range 12 throw to a range 4 throw (in terms of how far the figure can actually be moved) makes a huge difference when it comes to lava. That said, if I have a map with lots of lava on it, I'm either going to be issuing a house rule that says "hey, no Magneto on this map," or drafting multiple Obsidians and Brunak against him, or hiding out on my side of the map. There are some maps where due to elevation and lack of cover, Theracus and Syvarris would feel absolutely broken too. I think that the change in throw brings Magneto a lot more down to earth.

[Eclipse]

I think the change from basically a range 12 throw to a range 4 throw (in terms of how far the figure can actually be moved) makes a huge difference when it comes to lava. That said, if I have a map with lots of lava on it, I'm either going to be issuing a house rule that says "hey, no Magneto on this map," or drafting multiple Obsidians and Brunak against him, or hiding out on my side of the map. There are some maps where due to elevation and lack of cover, Theracus and Syvarris would feel absolutely broken too. I think that the change in throw brings Magneto a lot more down to earth.

Yes, it definitely helps, but I think there's still some problems. I think a big issue is just that Magneto is a ranged figure with high defense on his own, which means you can't force him to come to you. He's a little too easy to kick back and let people come to be slaughtered. This was the big problem with the 12 move lava, but it still exists to a certain degree.

The other concern I have (and I haven't gotten to try this, so it may not matter at all), is that there's a real possibility that Magneto can't be hit by melee units at all. By backing up 5 and throwing them back 4, he can always keep at least 9 hexes of space, which makes him pretty much impossible to hit 1 on 1. I'm not greatly concerned about this though given that nearly every Marvel figure has range or a means of surpassing a 9 hex threat range. Also, the small footprint of Marvel maps should limit this somewhat against classic figures, but I'm not sure how much damage he can do on a larger map.

[allskulls]

If you take out the Superstrength bit, you should be able to fit a line about lava. That is, if you're going to take out the Superstrength bit.
I can add the lava line without changing anything else.

I am willing to add it since the intention of the power was not to throw figures into lava anyway. Lava Fields are still available to throw figures on and it could be really effective if the said figure has no more order markers and no way to leave the lava field before the end of the round :twisted:

[IAmBatman]

Remember, Eclipse, if you send squad figures at Magneto, he can only throw one at a time - so he's not impossible to chase down at all. I just wouldn't use Agent Carr to do it.

[Eclipse]

I think the change from basically a range 12 throw to a range 4 throw (in terms of how far the figure can actually be moved) makes a huge difference when it comes to lava. That said, if I have a map with lots of lava on it, I'm either going to be issuing a house rule that says "hey, no Magneto on this map," or drafting multiple Obsidians and Brunak against him, or hiding out on my side of the map. There are some maps where due to elevation and lack of cover, Theracus and Syvarris would feel absolutely broken too. I think that the change in throw brings Magneto a lot more down to earth.

Yes, it definitely helps, but I think there's still some problems. I think a big issue is just that Magneto is a ranged figure with high defense on his own, which means you can't force him to come to you. He's a little too easy to kick back and let people come to be slaughtered. This was the big problem with the 12 move lava, but it still exists to a certain degree.

The other concern I have (and I haven't gotten to try this, so it may not matter at all), is that there's a real possibility that Magneto can't be hit by melee units at all. By backing up 5 and throwing them back 4, he can always keep at least 9 hexes of space, which makes him pretty much impossible to hit 1 on 1. I'm not greatly concerned about this though given that nearly every Marvel figure has range or a means of surpassing a 9 hex threat range. Also, the small footprint of Marvel maps should limit this somewhat against classic figures, but I'm not sure how much damage he can do on a larger maps.

Anyway, time to try him out a little more. For the record, I'm testing him on this map:

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10147/EmberCanyonRoad%28v2%29.JPG

Honestly, if there's lava on the map, it's probably going to be something like this. For now, my thought is that Magneto needs to be at least semi reasonable on this map, even if he's going to be worth more than 300 points.

[GreyOwl]

I think it would seem like an arbitrary restriction if he couldn't throw people into lava. If he can throw people anywhere, what's so special about lava that he can't drop them there? After all, there's nothing stopping Jotun from tossing people into lava, though he has to be adjacent to the figure to do so. Personally, I think a better approach is to adjust his cost assuming that he can do that. I don't think it needs to be a drastic change in cost, but moderate bump up is probably in order. I'm thinking about 30 points or so.

If you take out the Superstrength bit, you should be able to fit a line about lava. That is, if you're going to take out the Superstrength bit.
I can add the lava line without changing anything else.

I am willing to add it since the intention of the power was not to throw figures into lava anyway. Lava Fields are still available to throw figures on and it could be really effective if the said figure has no more order markers and no way to leave the lava field before the end of the round :twisted:

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Either fix his power or simply do not allow his drafting on lava maps.
Or else what?? :wink:

Seriously though. The only thing that should change is his price to reflect his ability on lava maps. There is no reason at all that he should

a) not be allowed to drop them onto lava

b) not allowed to be drafted on a lava map

I'm sorry but I think these suggestions are counterproductive. A smart player will be able to play strategically to best combat Magneto. In no way is his power broken. It is an advantage that is both thematic and appropriate. If anything, you could up his points by 30-50 points depending on how much of a 'problem' you deem this to be. I personally don't think it's a big deal. One of the most powerful mutants in the X-Men world should be powerful in the game. He's not unbeatable. Is he a challenge? Yes. Should he be a challenge? Yes.

It's almost like saying Spiderman's movement is overpowered if you play on a map with lots of height differences... just silly really. No offence intended. :D

I think this is a great custom. Just my 2c.
Ben.

[allskulls]

Dang, B&K, you should have judged this one :D

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Just voicing my opinion on a custom that I happen to particularly really like and will get a lot of use out of in my games. :wink:

[IAmBatman]

The problem is, right now if he's on a map with molten lava, Magneto basically has a range 4 (since the figure needs to land 4 spaces from its original placement) version of Chomp that works as an auto kill on squads and heroes alike, regardless of size. He also has flying and a high defense to make him much more mobile and to give him much more survivability than Grimnak has.
Let's say, for instance, Magneto is parked close to some lava and you want to take him out with your Hulk (we'll say, for instance, he's your only remaining figure). So you leap your Hulk out next to Magneto and attack. Magneto survives the initial pounding by Hulk, probably taking a wound or two. Then Magneto dumps Hulk on to lava, where Hulk has a 95% chance of dying. Considering Magneto costs 60 points less than Hulk, that seems a bit unbalanced.

[allskulls]

The problem is, right now if he's on a map with molten lava, Magneto basically has a range 4 (since the figure needs to land 4 spaces from its original placement) version of Chomp that works as an auto kill on squads and heroes alike, regardless of size. He also has flying and a high defense to make him much more mobile and to give him much more survivability than Grimnak has.
Let's say, for instance, Magneto is parked close to some lava and you want to take him out with your Hulk (we'll say, for instance, he's your only remaining figure). So you leap your Hulk out next to Magneto and attack. Magneto survives the initial pounding by Hulk, probably taking a wound or two. Then Magneto dumps Hulk on to lava, where Hulk has a 95% chance of dying. Considering Magneto costs 60 points less than Hulk, that seems a bit unbalanced. Understood. But why leap Hulk in a position he can easily be killed?

More than liekly I will change it...I actually already did but was waiting for this discussion to be fleshed out more and to hear more playtest reports :D

[rdhight]

1. Magneto's going to kill 2 4th Mass a turn, not one. One dies to the throw, the other dies to his normal attack.

Ah! For some reason I thought it had been changed to throwing instead of attacking. My mistake.

I still think some of the suggestions in that post were valid ones. Still, requiring him to dump the thrown figure with 4 spaces of its original position is nice, because it will occasionally force him to push an enemy back out of range of his normal attack. But we have to be careful about building up too many TNT figures that punish melee. Already, Nightcrawler gets his maximum evasiveness against range 1 squads, and it seems like this version of Magneto would be far more effective against melee heroes than anything else.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Change it back to a D20 11+ roll to throw then. That will make it a 45% chance instead of a 95% chance then.

[allskulls]

Here are the Magnetic Throw options:

1) Leave it as is...no roll required to throw, no landing space restriction
This one makes him too powerful on lava maps and may require an up in cost which will potentially make him overcosted on non-lava maps.

2) No roll required to throw, may not land in molten lava
Solves the overpowered problem but takes away from the character's theme...he is Ruthless.

3) Roll D20 to throw (11+), no landing space restriction
Back to the original. Adds another D20 roll but the lava threat is greatly reduced.

I am personally leaning toward option 3.

[rdhight]

If those are the options, I think No. 3 is by far the best. But what about not allowing him to throw when engaged to enemy figures? That would leave it up to the enemy to counteract, not up to chance.

If you decide to go with No. 3, you could also make it 11+ against enemy figures, but 5+ or automatic against friendlies.

[GreyOwl]

I would go with either 1 or 3. If you go with 1, up his cost. So what if he's overcosted on non-lava maps? The Obsidian Guards are overcosted on non-lava maps, too. A big part of the strategy of this game is to pick appropriate figures for the map.

Magneto rarely fails, so 1 seems more thematic. If you go with 3, I would give a much greater than 50% chance of success to keep it thematic, though not as high as 95%. Maybe something around 75%. Just adjust his cost up accordingly and it should be fine.

[allskulls]

Magnetic Throw 8

This is the way I will go and remove the Superstrength line.

[GreyOwl]

Magnetic Throw 8

This is the way I will go and remove the Superstrength line.

Is that the same as the most recent card you posted, minus the Superstrength line?

[Eclipse]

Understood. But why leap Hulk in a position he can easily be killed?

More than liekly I will change it...I actually already did but was waiting for this discussion to be fleshed out more and to hear more playtest reports :D

Playtested a bit more tonight, and still definitely a bit overpowered. To answer your question, the problem is that Magneto holds all the That might here. He's got range, great defense and most of the tools (6 move would help :lol: ) to ensure he's always got height. At 300 points, he really doesn't HAVE to move and initiate combat. He's really quite happy sitting still and waiting for someone to come into range of Hot Lava Death. On the lava map I'm testing there's nothing the Hulk CAN do but get in a position he can be easily killed.

One thing I've been running over in the back of my head is what would a melee weakness do to him? Dropping his defense to 4 and then giving him a "Magnetic Shield 3" power that boosted his defense by 3 against non adjacent attacks? That might be enough to make the throw both necessary and balanced, though that's a pretty major change to test.

[rdhight]

Melee weakness seems like it might work. For that matter, maybe drop his defense to 4-5 and give him Stealth Dodge to depict that the bullets just can't get there? Or give him 4 life to help rein him in?

The real question is, what should be the best thing to bring against Magneto? Not mind controllers, we know that from the start. That's accurate, I think. He's got that helmet. Not melee heroes on a lava map. That's true of all figures that can move enemies-- it's going to be hard to get away from that entirely. Ranged squads are questionable with their attacks of 1, 2, or 3 against 7 or more likely 8 defense dice. The best thing I'm coming up with is strong shooters like Q9, Silver Surfer, Deadeye, and Thanos (even Syvarris) on the damage side and Braxas or maybe Sudema on the insta-kill side. Figures who can do their work while staying a comfortable 4 spaces from hot lava death, and figures who don't have to run all the way in. But then a melee weakness would quash that idea....

It's hard to figure this guy out when we have no idea what some of the heavy-artillery superheroes will look like. If Hawkeye and Cyclops come out with a range of 9 or above and cool long-range boosts like defense bypassing or auto shields, it might be easy to make him come to you in a lava-free area after all. Maybe this time next year, we'll be sending some kind of lava-immune heavies against Magneto as a frontline, with range 8+ fire support parked outside his throw range.

For instance, among my unfinished customs I have a lava-immune Hellboy and Liz Sherman, and my Rasputin is a melee negator who automatically cancels the special abilities of anyone adjacent. I love playing him. Plus I have another wizard with an ignore lava damage aura. Magneto might eventually become fair at 300 if certain other abilities appear first. Heck, maybe someone will come out who teleports between lava spaces or gets some other big boost from them, and Magneto will be putting himself in deadly danger if he tries the lava strategy.

[Eclipse]

Lets not completely derail the thread with lava madness though. Don't forget he needs to be considered outside of lava as well.

[IAmBatman]

Understood. But why leap Hulk in a position he can easily be killed?

More than liekly I will change it...I actually already did but was waiting for this discussion to be fleshed out more and to hear more playtest reports :D

Because Hulk can only attack in melee. :P I'll read the rest of this thread before worrying about proposed changes, since it looks like there's more I have to catch up on.

edit: and right now I consider him completely balanced on any map not including molten lava (he's fine even with lava terrain). I think keeping his cost the same and putting that 8 initial roll on his throw should be enough to do it. His throw is still a *lot* more powerful than Jotun, and he'll still be more powerful (a little undercosted, but not broken) on maps with molten lava, and a little overcosted (but still fun and useful) on maps without it. I think that fix works, it shouldn't be enough to prevent him from using his throw most of the time, but it should be enough that he'll miss it on occasion and give the enemy a chance. Between that and the 4 spaces from their original placement stipulation, I'd say he's doing ok.

[allskulls]

I believe this has been mentioned as a possibility in here before but what about limiting the landing space to the same level as Magneto. It would sacrifice some theme but it would really balance him play wise. No need for a roll or limiting him to non-lava spaces. Would his cost need to be lowered?

I asked Chris about Spider-Man's Web Special Attack and he explained it well. Sometimes the theme is watered down a bit to make a solid playable ability that an 8 year old can grasp. But in the case of Spidey, the theme is still there but just different than expected. That's what may be needed with Magneto. I can easily come up with 20 different abilities for this guy but 2-4 with the right balance could represent him well on the hexes.

[Eclipse]

That's really a great quote, btw. Good game design really sucks sometimes :(

As far as the suggested change, I think it might just be a little too limiting and hard to understand thematically. It certainly helps to a degree, but seems really difficult to use in practice. I think what might work better is giving it the D20 roll, but make it less binary. Roll the D20, and let them move the opponent a number of spaces based on the result. 3-5 might be 1 space, 6-9 2 spaces, 10-14 3 spaces, 15-19 4 spaces and 20 5 spaces, or something like that. That way he's almost always throwing them, but there's less of a concern about the static "death zone" areas.

I'd still roll for the wounds even if they move zero though. One of my favorite abilities in City of Heroes is lifting people up in the air and dropping them on their heads. Just because you didn't move doesn't mean you didn't fall :D

Also, rather than have the D20 wound fall, you could always just state that figures roll for falling damage equal to 10 greater than their height or something like that. That would do the same thing as your current set up and actually give him a greater chance of doing all the damage he needs to do to squad figures. It would even take care of the Super Strength requirement for you I believe.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Eclipse, that is quite a good solution. It seems practical and still fairly thematic. Nice work.
Ben

[allskulls]

I'll explore that idea, Eclipse. Gotta see if I can fit it all :wink:

[ej]

My 2 cents in all this is that Red Skull has an auto-kill ability, why are we worried if Magneto has one? If the "throw" is limited to 4 spaces it's conceivable that your opponent could simply maintain a 5-6 hex distance from the lava at all times.

I also would like to see the throw be flexible enough to be used offensively against opponents and as an aid for friendly units (no rolling for damage, easier to use, etc.)

Its too bad that technology or metal isn't something that's designated in the army cards, because it would be great to give him bonuses against those units.

[allskulls]

This one fits exactly on the card without needing to change the font size...
Magnetic Throw
After moving and before attacking, choose one figure within 8 clear sight spaces of Magneto. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-4, the throw range equals 1. If you roll 5-8, the throw range equals 2. If you roll 9-12, the throw range equals 3. If you roll a 13 or higher, the throw range equals 4. Throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within the throw range of its original space. The figure must land within clear sight of Magneto. If the figure is an opponent’s figure, after the figure is placed, roll 2 attack dice for falling damage against the thrown figure. The thrown figure does not take leaving engagement attacks.

[allskulls]

My 2 cents in all this is that Red Skull has an auto-kill ability, why are we worried if Magneto has one? If the "throw" is limited to 4 spaces it's conceivable that your opponent could simply maintain a 5-6 hex distance from the lava at all times.
Very good point, but the problem was with Magneto having a potential auto-kill without a roll.

[ej]

Is it feasible to base the distance on size? Small figures are thrown 6 spaces, medium figures 4, large figures 3 and anything larger than that is immune. Roll the d20 only for enemy figures (d20 roll of 11 or higher). I don't remember... this is INSTEAD of an attack, right?

[Eclipse]

Yes, but I don't know how badly I'd like to see an algebra based power in the game:

Throw Range = D20 - Height * Size

Size: Value
Small : 1
Medium : 2
Large : 3
Huge : 4

Yes, that equation sucks. I could probably do better but I'm feeling lazy. Besides, that wasn't my point ;)

[allskulls]

Is it feasible to base the distance on size? Small figures are thrown 6 spaces, medium figures 4, large figures 3 and anything larger than that is immune. Roll the d20 only for enemy figures (d20 roll of 11 or higher). I don't remember... this is INSTEAD of an attack, right?
Basing it on size will add a lot of text (I wish the size of the figures were represented by a number on the cards). This power is before an attack.

[ej]

Has the idea of making this a Special Attack been discussed? When Magneto throws people it's quick, sure, but not quick enough to logically let him make an attack afterwards.

And the size thing I mentioned didn't include math, just if he is able to throw the character (as a result of an 11 or higher on the d20) he can throw the number of hexes I listed according to their height.

[allskulls]

The special attack idea has not been discussed but I did think about it. I decided against it because I wanted that pull or push and blast effect and so he could move friendlies and still attack.

The size idea is not bad. I really want this ability to be as simple as possible though.

[ej]

Has the idea of making this a Special Attack been discussed? When Magneto throws people it's quick, sure, but not quick enough to logically let him make an attack afterwards.

And the size thing I mentioned didn't include math, just if he is able to throw the character (as a result of an 11 or higher on the d20) he can throw the number of hexes I listed according to their height.

If it was made a Special Attack I'd even go so far as to suggest throwing the figure against a wall or another figure as a way to damage the throwee and potentially another enemy. Roll 2 dice, undefended, for damage, perhaps (modified falling damage)

Let me try to reword it:

Magnetic Throw Special Attack
Instead of attacking, Magneto may choose an enemy figure within 6 spaces and throw that figure up to 4 spaces in any direction. If the figure is thrown in an empty space roll 1 undefendable attack die. If the figure is thrown against an object or another figure, roll 2 undefendable attack dice. If a second figure was hit roll 2 undefendable attack dice for that figure as well. Friendly units may be moved according to the rules above without rolling for damage.

This way the throw is automatic, but the damage isn't.

[IAmBatman]

We're straying close to the territory where we'd need a boatload of explanatory text close to what I have currently whipped up for Knockback rules ... I think the wording as it right now works fairly well, especially with the 4 spaces from where they are. I think adding in a roll of 8 is enough to balance the power, without changing it completely. I think it's also the easiest fix right now, which isn't a bad thing.

[Eclipse]

This one fits exactly on the card without needing to change the font size...
Magnetic Throw
After moving and before attacking, choose one figure within 8 clear sight spaces of Magneto. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-4, the throw range equals 1. If you roll 5-8, the throw range equals 2. If you roll 9-12, the throw range equals 3. If you roll a 13 or higher, the throw range equals 4. Throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within the throw range of its original space. The figure must land within clear sight of Magneto. If the figure is an opponent’s figure, after the figure is placed, roll 2 attack dice for falling damage against the thrown figure. The thrown figure does not take leaving engagement attacks.

I really like this best. I'll play with it a bit and see what happens.

[IAmBatman]

The two unblockable dice no matter what he rolls for the D20 seems a bit extreme to me.

[Eclipse]

The two unblockable dice no matter what he rolls for the D20 seems a bit extreme to me.

Roughly the same odds as before though.

25% chance of dealing no wounds.

50% chance of one wound.

25% chance of two wounds.

Previously he had a 50% chance of causing two wounds and 50% chance of dealing no wounds. He's better against 1 life figures but roughly the same otherwise.

[IAmBatman]

OK, I guess I can live with that.

[Eclipse]

OK, I guess I can live with that.

I like how D20 auto wounds don't bother anyone, but as soon as you're rolling skulls people get up in arms. I like to throw a fit either way personally, but nobody seems to listen :(

[IAmBatman]

Depends on how high the roll is for a D20 auto wound. I get up in arms depending on those. :D It's just easier to mentally calculate the odds (for me anyway) on combat die based auto wounds. Seeing you do the break down like that helps put things into perspective.

[rdhight]

OK, I guess I can live with that.

I like how D20 auto wounds don't bother anyone, but as soon as you're rolling skulls people get up in arms. I like to throw a fit either way personally, but nobody seems to listen :(

There are a few exceptions, but we should generally keep d20 wounds or destruction as attacking abilities and attack dice as special attacks, as in Deadeye Dan. I don't have a problem with using d6 for the damage, but it would need to be changed to the Throw Special Attack version. As an attacking ability, the d20 is more appropriate.

[allskulls]

There are a few exception, but we should generally keep d20 wounds or destruction as attacking abilities and attack dice as special attacks, as in Deadeye Dan. I don't have a problem with using d6 for the damage, but it would need to be changed to the Thow Special Attack version. As an attacking ability, the d20 is more appropriate.
I used the attack dice so it could be falling damage. Any figure that would ignore falling damage would ignore these wounds.

[ZBeeblebrox]

Just my 2 cents,

but i likethe newest version. But maybe it should say the the figure takes falling damage, therefore it is not up to interpretation of the power, if you have a defending figure that is immune to that damage.

[Daredevil]

Hello,
Another option might be to play with the accuracy of the throw. You could have a target square, but allow the defending player the choice of accepting it or choosing an adjacent square to land in. This wouldn't help with a sea of lava :shock: , but it would keep small patches from being so deadly. Throws can be sloppy so it would make some sense.

Things I would have liked to have seen - counterstrike ability (with high die number) or flat out immunity for normal ranged attacks. A lower more standard defense for melee.

Overall, high applause for your effort here.

[rdhight]

Hello,
Another option might be to play with the accuracy of the throw. You could have a target square, but allow the defending player the choice of accepting it or choosing an adjacent square to land in. This wouldn't help with a sea of lava :shock: , but it would keep small patches from being so deadly. Throws can be sloppy so it would make some sense.

It might be cool to give that ability only to fliers, depicting that they can control their midair movement a little better. And it would be a nice damper on the lava factor. But I think we'd run into text length issues.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I think Magneto's 'throw' would be very accurate as he is controlling the metal to do so. I don't think his throws would be sloppy at all.

I like the rolling of the attack dice as well as it is really falling damage.

I am soooo waiting for the stamp to rain it's red beauty on Magneto as I have almost finished painting mine up!!! :excited: I want to use him 'officially'!!! :wink:

Ben.

[allskulls]

I am soooo waiting for the stamp to rain it's red beauty on Magneto as I have almost finished painting mine up!!! :excited: I want to use him 'officially'!!! :wink:
Can't wait to see it :popcorn:

[Eclipse]

So what's the current version of this character? I'm planning on testing him out a bit tonight and I'd like to be sure I'm using the latest variation (as opposed to what I think is the latest variation ;) )

[allskulls]

So what's the current version of this character? I'm planning on testing him out a bit tonight and I'd like to be sure I'm using the latest variation (as opposed to what I think is the latest variation ;) )
Try out this one...
Magnetic Throw
After moving and before attacking, choose one figure within 8 clear sight spaces of Magneto. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-4, the throw range equals 1. If you roll 5-8, the throw range equals 2. If you roll 9-12, the throw range equals 3. If you roll a 13 or higher, the throw range equals 4. Throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within the throw range of its original space. The figure must land within clear sight of Magneto. If the figure is an opponent’s figure, after the figure is placed, the figure rolls for extreme falling damage. The thrown figure does not take leaving engagement attacks.
I changed the falling damage line.

[Eclipse]

So what's the current version of this character? I'm planning on testing him out a bit tonight and I'd like to be sure I'm using the latest variation (as opposed to what I think is the latest variation ;) )
Try out this one...
Magnetic Throw
After moving and before attacking, choose one figure within 8 clear sight spaces of Magneto. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-4, the throw range equals 1. If you roll 5-8, the throw range equals 2. If you roll 9-12, the throw range equals 3. If you roll a 13 or higher, the throw range equals 4. Throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within the throw range of its original space. The figure must land within clear sight of Magneto. If the figure is an opponent’s figure, after the figure is placed, the figure rolls for extreme falling damage. The thrown figure does not take leaving engagement attacks.
I changed the falling damage line.

Extreme Fall or Major Fall damage? There's a HUGE difference there... ;)

EDIT: There's also the Super Strength problem there. No auto wounds on Super Strength characters.

[allskulls]

So what's the current version of this character? I'm planning on testing him out a bit tonight and I'd like to be sure I'm using the latest variation (as opposed to what I think is the latest variation ;) )
Try out this one...
Magnetic Throw
After moving and before attacking, choose one figure within 8 clear sight spaces of Magneto. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-4, the throw range equals 1. If you roll 5-8, the throw range equals 2. If you roll 9-12, the throw range equals 3. If you roll a 13 or higher, the throw range equals 4. Throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within the throw range of its original space. The figure must land within clear sight of Magneto. If the figure is an opponent’s figure, after the figure is placed, the figure rolls for extreme falling damage. The thrown figure does not take leaving engagement attacks.
I changed the falling damage line.

Extreme Fall or Major Fall damage? There's a HUGE difference there... ;)

EDIT: There's also the Super Strength problem there. No auto wounds on Super Strength characters.
Whichever one has you roll 2 attack dice...never needed either :D
The no damage to Superstrength characters was on purpose.

[IAmBatman]

I think you want Major Fall Damage - I'm pretty sure Extreme Fall Damage is the one that requires a D20 roll.

[Eclipse]

Yup. Extreme Fall is 1-18 destroy the figure. With that in place, he doesn't even need lava to dominate the board :lol:

Major fall is two attack dice. I'll use that. My only question was whether or not its ok that he doesn't get to deal any damage to Super Strength characters, since originally he still did one auto wound to them. Probably fair either way. To testing!

[Daredevil]

I think Magneto's 'throw' would be very accurate as he is controlling the metal to do so. I don't think his throws would be sloppy at all.

I respectfully disagree for 2 reasons - 1) it would be the difference to me between throwing a baseball and a pillow, people flail or move in the air, consider Wolverine or Daredevil
2) the fact that you roll to determine distance sort of concedes the accuracy issue already.

Also, I don't think it would be any wordier than the current solution.

The current solution seems good though...just offering a different perspective.

[allskulls]

I think Magneto's 'throw' would be very accurate as he is controlling the metal to do so. I don't think his throws would be sloppy at all.

I respectfully disagree for 2 reasons - 1) it would be the difference to me between throwing a baseball and a pillow, people flail or move in the air, consider Wolverine or Daredevil
2) the fact that you roll to determine distance sort of concedes the accuracy issue already.

Also, I don't think it would be any wordier than the current solution.

The current solution seems good though...just offering a different perspective.
Your idea was good, but I have to agree with B&K. Magneto may simply throw an opponent but he can, and more than likely, controls the entire throw. He does not just toss an enemy like you throw a baseball or pillow. There is no release until impact. That is why flyers won't be imune to his throw.
The roll to determine distance is a balancer and is really a game mechanic issue. A lot of abilities that require D20 rolls could be assumed natural for the particular character but in game terms it is good to have success/failure scale. There's many characters that will never get the jump on Spidey but on a Spidey-Sense roll of 10 or less they can.

[Daredevil]

If he's throwing an armored knight, perhaps the accuracy is there. If its a Tibetan monk...maybe not so.

I do like the card and look forward to using it.

[allskulls]

If he's throwing an armored knight, perhaps the accuracy is there. If its a Tibetan monk...maybe not so.

I do like the card and look forward to using it.
Metal objects may enhance his control over them but non-metal does not limit him. He can create magnetic fields around anything and he can tap the Earth's gravitational pull.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I understand your point Daredevil, but I must also repectfully disagree with it.

Wolverine has an adamantiam skeleton (he wouldn't be able to struggle). But besides that, as Allskulls said, he can create magnetic fields around anything... also if you wanted to be scientific think of the iron content in everyone's blood. (would that make anaemic people harder to move?? :wink: )

Ben. :D

[GreyOwl]

True, Magneto has demonstrated many times that the normal iron content in the blood is sufficient for him to control someone. So I wouldn't worry about the struggling aspect.

Unless you want to exclude Undead from his effect, since they have no blood. :D Just kidding...

[Eclipse]

If he's throwing an armored knight, perhaps the accuracy is there. If its a Tibetan monk...maybe not so.

I do like the card and look forward to using it.
Metal objects may enhance his control over them but non-metal does not limit him. He can create magnetic fields around anything and he can tap the Earth's gravitational pull.

What about Valhalla's? Perhaps his powers should only work on Marvel terrain?

On a more serious note, he's looking good. :D

[Eclipse]

I'm actually just a little worried he's overpriced now. Not being able to damage Super Strength characters with the throw makes for a pretty major change in the marvel game. His normal attack just isn't that scary overall, and most characters aren't bothered at all by a little pushback now and then.

That said, he's well worth his points against characters without Super Strength and no matter what he's a lot of fun. ALWAYS attack with height advantage is nice, and it's interesting that he rarely gets the same benefits defending. On team games, his ability to set up a character is priceless.

Honestly, 280 doesn't seem out of the question for him. I won't deny him his rightful place among the elite at 300 though. I do, however, request to see a final version of the card with the last magnetic throw change. With that in place, I'll happily approve him.

[rdhight]

My second edition rulebook says "Major fall: if the drop is 10 levels more than the figure's height, you must roll two additional dice (for a total of three dice)."

Also, doesn't this new version need a no-damage-when-thrown-into-water line?

EDIT: Just finished two playtest games. Map was a courtyard with plenty of height but no lava.

Game 1: Magneto, Nightcrawler, and Deathreavers x1 vs. Batman, Venom, Airborne Elite, and Me-Burq-Sa. The goal was to test Magneto against a variety of cheaper, aggressive threats with Revolutionary Action in play.

The Airborne dropped on the first roll, but lost initiative. Three of them fell quickly without doing damage. MBS got off one shot at Magneto, doing no damage, before Nightcrawler killed him. Batman finally got the opposing force on the scoreboard by killing a rat.

Round 3, things got interesting. Magneto failed to stay far enough away from Venom, and one hit dealt him three wounds. Nightcrawler approached Batman, ready to triple-attack on level ground, but the very first skull of the game directed against the Bat triggered I Am The Night! Batman used his free normal attack on Nightcrawler, then killed him on the very next order marker. Revolutionary Action went off and transferred Magneto's 3-marker from Nightcrawler's corpse back to him; he threw Venom 4 spaces, dropping him down off a wall they were both standing on, then attacked him with 5 dice. Venom's spidey-sense went off, and he jumped right back to his previous perch! Magneto and Venom traded wounds next round before Batman saved the day with a batarang shot against height advantage. One skull, no shields, and Magneto was dead. The three remaining rats conceded.

Basically, Magneto blew it against a weaker army by allowing Venom to get too close. I played him badly.

Game 2: Silver Surfer and Venom against Magneto, Nightcrawler, and Guilty McCreech. To counter the undefendable throwing damage, I eliminated all non-super-strong figures from the opposing force. Rats weren't a factor last game, so I swapped them out for Guilty.

Nightcrawler dinged the Surfer for one wound, and the Surfer and Magneto wounded one another. Nightcrawler's job was to interfere with Venom and keep him from engaging Magneto, which he did well. In the third round, Magneto and the Surfer exchanged enough blows to bring them each two wounds from death. Magneto would hurl the Surfer from the top of the wall and attack with five dice, and the Surfer would fly back up and retaliate next turn. SS managed to put wound 4 on Magneto before dying. Next turn, Venom approached at ground level and aimed a web shot Magneto's way. One skull, no shields once again. Afterwards, Venom killed Guilty almost at once, but finally fell to Nightcrawler-- a comfortable margin of victory.

Even though he couldn't hurt anyone with his throw, Magneto used it to help keep Venom away. And he acquired height advantage over the Surfer for every one of his attacks by throwing him down. Against opponents that easily could have won, I played him more defensively and he showed his worth.

ANALYSIS: Venom was MVP, no question about it. At half Magneto's cost, he boasts super strength to counter the throw's damage, swing-line to recover from being moved by the enemy, spidey-sense and 5 life to withstand the normal attack, and a 6 attack to make himself a legitimate threat to the Master of Magnetism.

I got to see Revolutionary Action work, and it was nicely done. It gives you the freedom to put that 3 marker on a wounded Nightcrawler without fear, and it didn't feel unfair to play against at all.

This is harsh, but I absolutely hate it that the throw deals major falling damage. Three undefended skulls against any ordinary mortal 100% of the time, no damage against any super-strong figure ever? The pressure to ditch Cap, Red Skull, and all Classic figures and build a team out of the eight super-strength guys was overpowering, and I didn't like it one bit.

I hope the final version's throw damage is equal against figures with and without super strength. When you think about it, this would be the only attack in the game that damages figures with and without super strength unevenly. From the lowly arrow grut to the mighty Hulk, that little symbol offers no damage reduction against anyone in the game, and I think we should keep it that way.

[allskulls]

Great reports, rdhight! I am seeing the need to revert back to normal throwing damage.

[rdhight]

Writing these battle reports feels strangely like work to me-- I'm a part-time sportswriter. Weird sensation!

I certainly didn't have the throw damage in my head as a problem until I actually assembled an army to beat him. It was just, "Okay, super strength prevents falling damage, that's cool. It is super, after all." But super strength is a funny thing. It doesn't grant additional damage, except against inanimate objects, and it doesn't reduce damage, except from falling. We shouldn't inflate it into a bigger advantage than it's supposed to be. I learned a lot, though. Magneto's really a very cautious, defensive figure-- making it easy to put order markers on his allies instead of himself, moving allies to better positions, using flying and throw to stay unengaged. He really rewards plotting and doesn't respond well to "I'm so brave I'm gonna get in there and kill kill kill!"

[Eclipse]

Great reports, rdhight! I am seeing the need to revert back to normal throwing damage.

Good to hear. I think that's definitely for the best given the low standards for Super Strength Marvel seems to have.

[Daredevil]

[/quote]Metal objects may enhance his control over them but non-metal does not limit him. He can create magnetic fields around anything and he can tap the Earth's gravitational pull.[/quote]

Metal may enhance his control but non-metal does not limit him...so there's no difference... Uh ok.

I don't need a history lesson on Magneto...we just seem to have read different books, I should have realized that when you made him an avenging angel for mutant kind...that was the shorter point of his career I think.

[Daredevil]

[
What about Valhalla's? Perhaps his powers should only work on Marvel terrain?

On a more serious note, he's looking good. :D[/quote]

Ha...you're funny.

[Daredevil]

You know what fellas, I've had it with this thread...far be it for me to stand in the way of this little party.

Bottom line, someone mentioned the lava problem, I offered a solution...you don't like it - fine. Got something else - fine. I offered some bit of reasoning because people seem to like that in the gaming community even though everyone realizes compromises are made.

...but instead of saying - "hey that's ok - going in another direction," I get a bunch of half baked reasoning as to why Magneto's power is infallable and how he can't possibly miss by a single space from a bunch of guys who have no problem rolling a die to see how far he can actually throw someone :roll:

I think I'll have a beer and leave yall to your discussion....

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Ok :wtf:

These threads are for discussion. People often justify their thoughts during these discussions. There is nothing wrong with doing that.

Customs in this area are interpretations of a period in that super's career. That being said, if you don't agree with his powers or the way he's been represented, that's fine. You don't have to, but this is Allskulls interpretation, if you don't like it, make your own.

It goes without saying that you are more than welcome to make contributions to the thread, but if people don't take it as written law don't be offended, it would be childish to do so. I've made suggestions that people don't agree with or think appropriate for their customs... I'm sure everyone has. The designer often justifies why they don't want to go with it and then we all move on. It's not a big deal and nothing worth getting your panties in a twist about. Now since this is not the place or the time can we get back on track please. :wink:

I agree that the throw not damaging models with SuperStrength is probably not appropriate. If it did damage them, you could justify it by saying that it wasn't just the throw that damaged them, but the movement/constriction of the armour/adamantiam skeleton/iron in the blood, insert other plausible reason here. Otherwise the figures without superstrength simply won't be drafted against Magneto which would a) be a great shame and b) seriously water down the ability.

Are we any closer to some stamps? Can we write down any road blocks (per say) that need to be overcome for him to be approved so we can address them promptly?

Cheers guys,
Ben.

[Eclipse]

Are we any closer to some stamps? Can we write down any road blocks (per say) that need to be overcome for him to be approved so we can address them promptly?

Cheers guys,
Ben.

I'm reasonably happy with him, but All Skulls is not and that's probably more important than all 3 judges opinions. I'd stamp him, but I'd like to see All Skulls's changes first.

[rdhight]

I am willing to do a couple more playtests if allskulls will compile the changes so far into a new card so I can make sure I'm not confused.

...I think I'll have a beer and leave yall to your discussion....

Good.

[allskulls]

I am willing to do a couple more playtests if allskulls will compile the changes so far into a new card so I can make sure I'm not confused.
Will do :D

Sorry my weekends usually keep me away from here.

[allskulls]

I decided to go with Magnetic Throw 8. It is the closest to the official Throw ability and keeps him right at 300pts IMO.
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

[rdhight]

Very long playtest report here, but you can skip to the end for my conclusions. Map used was the same road-filled courtyard as before.

Game 1: Magneto, Mimring, and Venom --vs-- Thanos and Iron Man Goal was to load both sides up with ranged fliers and see how Magneto competes in that environment.

Magneto failed to put his first order marker on the vulnerable Mimring, and Thanos slew the dragon with a single blow, causing an immediate wasted turn. Thanos flew just out of Venom's threat range and fired on Magneto, dealing two wounds. Magneto retaliated on the last turn of the first round, throwing Thanos down for two wounds, then adding one more with his normal attack. Next, Venom stepped between the two and engaged Thanos, dealing one more wound and evading two mighty blows with spider-sense. Iron Man finally got into the fight and nicked Venom. Both sides swung uselessly a couple of times each before Venom killed Thanos, then tried to protect Magneto from Iron Man in the same way. Tony had more luck, though: he quickly finished off Venom before getting thrown for two damage. When an order marker came up on Venom's card, Iron Man wasted the big M with those four unanswered shots.

Iron Man survived with three wound markers on him, and Magneto lost two turns and got hurt both times, so if either Venom or Mimring had been a mutant, this fight probably would have gone the other way.

Game 2: Magneto, Nightcrawler and Airborne Elite --vs-- Jotun, Dr. Doom, and Samurai Archers x2 Goal was to see Mental Shield in action and also to pit thrower against thrower.

I won't keep you in suspense: the scout team got lined up against the wall and shot. Magneto started things off with a cool move, flying to height and tossing Nightcrawler 4 spaces forward. Nightcrawler got all further order markers until he died. The Tagawa archers were trying to climb ladders while under attack from him; he would get to a higher rung, kill one or two, then bamf to safety. Doom defended well, for his part; he put a wound on Nightcrawler, then Mind Exchanged him and used him to run back home and wound Magneto as well. But then Jotun wasted order markers because the archers were clogging the spaces he could have used to engage Nightcrawler. Once the archers were reduced to two, Nightcrawler concentrated on Doom instead, putting one wound on him before falling. Two markers transferred to Magneto, who strolled out from his start zone and obliterated Jotun. This is where the dorky-looking helmet kicked in. With Nightcrawler and Jotun dead, Doom's mind exchange was repeatedly wasted, and Magneto beat him one-on-one. The two remaining samurai committed seppuku. The airborne never dropped.

Jotun was a complete waste. Largely thanks to 225 points' worth of two-hex walker, Doom's team was totally outclassed in speed and mobility. There are many, many figures who would have done much better, including TNT Batman and TNT Deathlok. Between attacks, Nightcrawler would fall back to the top of an overhang where Jotun couldn't get him; Batman could have swung right up and pounded on him, and Deathlok could have gone underneath it and turned it into a danger area. Even Nilf would have been a big improvement.

Game 3: Magneto, Nightcrawler, and Airborne Elite --vs-- Q9, Raelin, Gladiatrons x2, Izumi Samurai, and Nakita Agents. The new opposing force was a collection of random ideas I thought might stop this army. I wanted to position Izumis halfway up the ladders; other squad figures would climb a rung or two, then on the next turn climb through the Izumis and onto the wall. This might keep Nightcrawler from constantly getting height on them by grabbing higher rungs. Then the gladiatrons would occupy the walls above the starting area and rob him of his safe zones. Nakitas were there to interfere with both enemy mutants in any way possible.

The Airborne dropped on the first turn; they lost initiative, but about all Q9's team could do was to scatter some gladiatrons to lessen the impact of grenades. Still, the grenade barrage killed two nakitas, an izumi, and put two wounds on Raelin. Meanwhile, Nightcrawler bamfed in and picked off a gladiatron that had scattered out of Raelin's aura to avoid the blasts. Q9 shot back and killed two airborne, but the survivors took out Raelin before Q9 dropped a third. Just as Magneto entered the fight, the Major's force lost a turn due to Raelin's death. Magneto was then able to throw Q9 twice in a row, making the damage roll both times and killing him. He then ordered Nightcrawler to jump into a sea of Gladiatrons and accept that he would be clawed in exchange for assassinating the last nakita. He killed her and one gladiatron before the remaining robots swamped and killed him. Thanks to revolutionary action, things continued without letup, as Magneto zoomed all over the board, easily running and gunning his way to victory. On a lucky initiative change, a gladiatron got a claw on him one time, but he quickly threw the offender and escaped. They finished off the last airborne along the way, but never harmed Magneto.

I tried to improve on the Jotun/Doom combo by building in heavier defenses, but what I should have done was to build in higher mobility instead. Even for the little time they survived, the shooters were unable to make use of their full threat ranges because of the need to keep Nakitas near Q9/Raelin and meanwhile stay within Raelin's aura. The gladiatrons did accomplish their job of taking away Teleport Evade, and Nightcrawler also left the Izumis for ranged units to take down, so that was a decent try at countering him with squads. I really need some blastatrons, though.

ANALYSIS: Of all the changes made between the last version I tested and this one, all were for the better. The d20 roll to throw makes him more fun; before, he would monotonously acquire height advantage for every attack, but now, the fact that he doesn't always throw makes you think harder when you play him. The Jotun-like throwing damage is also a big help. It's very strong, but doesn't make him insanely good against Classic armies like he was before. The telepathy-proof helmet and order marker salvaging are both solid, dependable abilities that give Magneto more options and take them from his enemies. I caught myself thinking that Shades of Bleakwoode would be great for chasing him down-- if it weren't for that mental shield. And not only is he good right now, but when you consider the big-gun telepaths like Prof. X and Brainiac aren't around yet for him to counter, and we've only got one other mutant for him to avenge, he should age just fine. I would say the current card is great except for cost.

He is definitely worth every point. The combination of Magneto and Nightcrawler at 500 is blazingly fast, and that 600-point army of Magneto, Nightcrawler, and Airborne Elite is just as good or better. I think if you were to price him at 320, no one would bat an eye. At 300, you can use him in the the 400-point army of Magneto/Krav, the 500-point armies of Magneto/Nightcrawler, Magneto/Omnicrons x2, and Magneto/Microcorps x2, and then that 600-pointer that ripped my face right off. (And I wasn't even playing him on a lava map!) Casual players like me will have a terrible time with all of those. I strongly recommend raising his price to at least 305. That would have hardly any effect in fitting him into a superhero-heavy game at the 700-point level or above, but it will rule out some of those two-army-card murder machines in the 400-600 range. My opinion is 305 rock bottom, 320 is by no means too much.

(I gotta cut down the play-by-play on these things!)

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

My turn for a playtest, and with my neww one day old Marvelset. :D

Magneto, Nightcrawler, Iron Man vs. Captain America, Silver Surfer, Venom
Nightcrawler engaged Silver Surfer in turn one, only wasting one attack. He died shortly after from one powerful cosmic blast. During hie engagement, he only delt one wound to the Surfer. There wer no markers on Nightcrawler when he died, so revolutionary action did not take place. Magneto threw Iron Man on top of the Warehouse and the two of them proceeded to kill Venom. Magneto kept busy by throwing Surfer or Venom off the Warehouse and keeping Captain America back. He never rolled an 11 or higher for the wounds. Finally Surfer with only a few wounds killed Magneto and Iron Man a turn later.

I would say that at 300 he seems right on. I didn't have too much luck with Throw and I think Magneto only inflicted 1 wound on Venom and 2 on the Surfer. So he was definatly not worth 300 points in this test. I'm going to run him solo aganst Abomination and Surfer to see how he does.

EDIT: I had a question about when Surfer killed Nightcrawler, a possible FAQ for when Magneto is TNT'd. If Surfer had killed Nightcrawler with Cosmic Blast, while Nightcrawler still had an unrevealed order marker, and Surfer rolled a 16 or higher would he get to remove an order marker before they are transfered to Magneto? I would assume yes.

[Firemaster]

EDIT: I had a question about when Surfer killed Nightcrawler, a possible FAQ for when Magneto is TNT'd. If Surfer had killed Nightcrawler with Cosmic Blast, while Nightcrawler still had an unrevealed order marker, and Surfer rolled a 16 or higher would he get to remove an order marker before they are transfered to Magneto? I would assume yes.

I would guess yes as well. My understanding is that combat is resolved as follows:

1. Roll the combat dice and place applicable wounds.
2. Resolve additional effects of the attack.
3. Check to see if there are enough wounds to destroy the figure & destroy figure if needed.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Ok I played him against Abomination and then against Silver Surfer, he won both times. Abomination gave him 4 wounds and lasted three turns, while Silver Surfer gave him 1 wound and lasted only 2 turns. I would agree with rdhight on the price bump.

[Eclipse]

Part of the problem with playtesting for points is that the game relies so much on the roll of the dice that there's a good chance your results can be skewed by the luck of the roll. For example, last night I saw Abomination fell Magneto in one roll then watched Magneto nearly defeat the Hulk the next game (though in this instance he had the PERFECT set up). I think I'm finding that to be the hardest part about guessing points personally.

I do think he's a little underpriced. While he lost a few games to bad rolls, he was able to do quite a bit of damage to the 300+ crowd, usually winning. I think, more than anything, the best way to even him out would be to reduce his throwing damage to 1 auto wound. The difference in a battle that makes is enormous as 2 auto wounds followed up by what should be a guaranteed 5 attack is pretty powerful. His defense, while as flaky as any other, makes it pretty likely he'll get a couple shots at this, which is where he seems to dominate. None of this takes into account his Revolutionary Action, which alone makes him a great "safety net" unit for mutant teams and should be worth a bit on its own.

Personally, I'd consider making him 310 points and reducing the throw damage to 1 wound. Last night I tried that and it seemed pretty fair for the most part. He ran pretty even with the Surfer and Abomination, almost always winning with 2 auto wounds, but losing slightly more than winning with just 1. I do think he's darn near perfect, but the difference between good and great is always in the last 10% :)

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

So what's up with Magneto. It seems like this trial has been here forever.

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Starts chanting... *Stamp* *Stamp* *Stamp*

[Eclipse]

So what's up with Magneto. It seems like this trial has been here forever.

I don't know. There's been several posts on him being underpriced in playtesting, but allskulls hasn't responded to them either way (whether he thinks there needs to be changes or if he's happy as is). I was kinda waiting on what he has to say personally.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I say bump the points to 310/320 and he's good. Even at 300 he is fine with me, just a little to low.

[allskulls]

So what's up with Magneto. It seems like this trial has been here forever.

I don't know. There's been several posts on him being underpriced in playtesting, but allskulls hasn't responded to them either way (whether he thinks there needs to be changes or if he's happy as is). I was kinda waiting on what he has to say personally.
In my playtesting his 300pt cost has been OK...he always died. And this was with a no roll Magnetic Throw. I have yet to test with the roll of 8.

I do see the reasonings behind increasing his points as valid though. 305-310 would be OK with me. Anything more will get into Surfer territory and I think Shinehead is better.

[Eclipse]

I'm not really holding him up based solely on my own playtesting. There's been several reports suggesting he could be higher. In my experience, the 2 auto wounds is what really puts him higher, but at the same time, the complete randomness of rolling this many dice makes who beat who arguments anecdotal at best. In my experience with him though, he tends to beat the official 320 figure one on one more often than not with 2 wounds on the throw. That's not even taking into account revolutionary action or his mental shield, which are both rather impressive abilities. With 1 wound on the throw, I find he's probably closer to 300.

That said, it might just be that I have a lot of luck with him. There's a lot of randomness in this game. I've seen him fall to a single hit from the Abomination with some particularly poor rolls. I'm just finding more often than not he's doing more than his fair share of damage in the majority of the games I've played.

Personally, I'm not particularly comfortable being the sole gatekeeper here. I think 310 or so is probably fair, but my job isn't to strike a deal with you on it, its to keep out things that aren't ready for the TNT stamp. While I'd say he's worth a few more points, I'd like to hear what others think on the matter, particularly the other judges. My opinion alone shouldn't dictate skulls's design after all.

[IAmBatman]

I'd like to see if I can get some playtesting in on this new version (tonight - so it won't take long), then I'll weigh in on the costing concern.

[Penitus]

Maybe this has been talked about already, but why does Magneto have Super Strength??? He is no stronger than Captain America for example.

[allskulls]

Maybe this has been talked about already, but why does Magneto have Super Strength??? He is no stronger than Captain America for example.
Strength Level: Magneto can use his magnetic powers to increase his physical strength up through Class 100 (the ability to lift over 100 tons).
For more on Magneto (http://marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/magneto.htm) :wink:

[Penitus]

I see. I figured as such, but thought I'd ask anyway.

By the way, your artwork is impressive.

[Lotus]

And that reduced his falling damage how? I understand it would help him break through walls.

[Eclipse]

And that reduced his falling damage how? I understand it would help him break through walls.

Honestly, I've been a bit afraid NOT to give flying figures Super Strength with Dr. Doom around. It's a little too easy to make them fall, fly up, and fall again and again. If he's got the strength to break walls down and can fly (therefore normally avoiding all fall damage anyway), I say give him Super Strength.

[GreyOwl]

Thematically, I don't see him having it. I mean he's kind of an old man with no superhuman strength, or even especially strong for a normal human. He's definitely physically weaker than Captain America. I don't see him punching through a wall without using his magnetic powers, for example.

[Eclipse]

Thematically, I don't see him having it. I mean he's kind of an old man with no superhuman strength, or even especially strong for a normal human. He's definitely physically weaker than Captain America. I don't see him punching through a wall without using his magnetic powers, for example.

I don't really see Dr Doom as the super strength type either. They really just have a low standard for what's considered Super Strength, IMO.

[GreyOwl]

Doom's armor gives him enhanced strength and endurance. It also has a force field that protects him from falls (and I just found out, even from Magneto's power).

[allskulls]

I see. I figured as such, but thought I'd ask anyway.

By the way, your artwork is impressive.
Gee, thanks :D I've been messing around with some new stuff and will be posting in the next couple of days.

As for the Super Strength debate, I think it just needs to be kept simple. If a character has the ability, by whatever means, just give it to him. Sure Doom has a boatload of defenses in his armor, as does Ironman but it won't all get represented in Scape. Just like Magneto has tons of things he can do with his power, one being keeping himself young...that old guy in the movies was a very weak potrayal of the Master of Magnetism.

We don't usually see Magneto use his Super Strength because he doesn't need it to lift things. But the ability to lift 100 tons should constitute the "S" IMO.

[GreyOwl]

I guess it's a difference of opinion as to what the superstrength symbol represents. I took it as not having to do with any active powers. In effect, if the figure was dropped from a height while unconscious, would they be hurt? This is why it makes sense Captain America doesn't have it. He may very well be able to use his skills and/or his shield to avoid damage, but innately he has nothing to protect him. I see Magneto in the same category; he can use his powers to help him, but if he was unable to then he has nothing to protect him. Whereas others like Silver Surfer, Iron Man, Dr. Doom, etc. all would be somewhat protected even if not actively trying to do anything.

The same line of reasoning applies to the other benefit of the symbol, which is the bonus against destructable objects. I take it as meaning without the use of any active power. Sure, superstrength like Hulk or Superman has is a power, but it is a passive power in that it can't really be turned "on and off". By contrast, something like Cyclops's optic blast would be considered "active". Again, in this scenario I also see Magneto not having the symbol. With his active powers, he could rip the wall apart easily. But without them and just punching the wall, I don't see him being able to break it down. At least, that was my take on the symbol. :)

[rdhight]

It would be easier to know whether to give him superstrength if we had some official destructible cars and stuff to throw around. I mean, no one should be able to school a throwable object like Magneto, so if he needs the symbol for maximum truck-flinging power, we should slap it on him no questions asked.

One thing that does seem is odd the the image of Magneto choosing to walk and plummeting 10 levels without getting hurt. Seems like he ought to have to use his controlled flying to avoid falling damage.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Superstrength is fine with me. I'm currently more concerned with the point value. I hope Batman got some testing in so we have a better estimate.

[allskulls]

As it stands now, the only way to take falling damage is to walk off a cliff. Walking off a cliff is a voluntary act which means the character would be fully conscience and in control of his powers. I see the "S" as an ability on the card. If Morsbane negates a super I think Superstrength is gone too...is this a question for Hasbro?

In the snippet I took from Marvel's write up, Magneto can use his power to enhance his stregnth to a class 100 or to the point of being able to lift 100 tons. I think He would be able to "punch" a hole in the wall. I think the S ability fits well...I don't want to have to make whole other ability about his enhancing his strength. I'd rather assume that when it is needed it's there. When will it be needed? When he wants to destroy an object or walk off a cliff without flying (that no-flying glyph may be in play).

THe only issues with this power will come from custom rules like knockback or liftable objects. Sounds like perfect fits for Mags to me :D

[GreyOwl]

In the snippet I took from Marvel's write up, Magneto can use his power to enhance his stregnth to a class 100 or to the point of being able to lift 100 tons.

I actually didn't know he used his power like that. Given that, I can see justification for giving him superstrength.

[allskulls]

310pts...
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

*Repeats the stamp chant that has been going on for 10 pages.*

[Penitus]

Do I hear 320?

[allskulls]

Going once...
Going twice...

SOLD for 310 :D

[rdhight]

Can you believe when I nominated this guy I said he would only need some wording changes? Shows what I know. But I can't think of a thing to complain about on the latest card.


STAMP!

STAMP!

STAMP!

[allskulls]

rdhight- Now I'm hoping I see the final stamp before you so I could submit something before you nominate another of my "needing only wording changes" customs :wink:

[Daredevil]

These threads are for discussion. People often justify their thoughts during these discussions. There is nothing wrong with doing that.

....I thought I was justifying my thoughts, but that's different I suppose LOL.

Customs in this area are interpretations of a period in that super's career. That being said, if you don't agree with his powers or the way he's been represented, that's fine. You don't have to, but this is Allskulls interpretation, if you don't like it, make your own.

Then again, I could just photoshop his and add my own stats and powers since its not official anyway.

It goes without saying that you are more than welcome to make contributions to the thread, but if people don't take it as written law don't be offended, it would be childish to do so. I've made suggestions that people don't agree with or think appropriate for their customs... I'm sure everyone has. The designer often justifies why they don't want to go with it and then we all move on. It's not a big deal and nothing worth getting your panties in a twist about.

Gee thanks dad :roll: There's nothing like a lecture from a presumptious fatherly figure with a frog on his shoulder. My panties are in a bundle...I see, how mature.

[rdhight]

rdhight- Now I'm hoping I see the final stamp before you so I could submit something before you nominate another of my "needing only wording changes" customs :wink:

It's all part of my nefarious plot. I've been sitting here with my finger on the nominate button ever since you posted the new card. "Let's see... that Blink looks like it should keep allskulls tied up for a good long time...."

[Boromir_and_kermit]

*Ignores the moron*

Magneto needs some Stamping!!!

[allskulls]

rdhight- Now I'm hoping I see the final stamp before you so I could submit something before you nominate another of my "needing only wording changes" customs :wink:

It's all part of my nefarious plot. I've been sitting here with my finger on the nominate button ever since you posted the new card. "Let's see... that Blink looks like it should keep allskulls tied up for a good long time...."
:lol: Blink would make this thread look like a cake walk! She is actually one of the funnest customs I made.

[allskulls]

Then again, I could just photoshop his and add my own stats and powers since its not official anyway.

I really hope you are serious about this. I'd like to see other versions made.

[IAmBatman]

Sorry I haven't chimed in (same excuse as other threads here). I played Magneto against some other stuff in about three or four battles last night. Superman whipped on him twice (once with his fists, once by super breathing him into lava while Magneto was trying to lure him over there to throw him into lava), Braxas acid breathed him once, and then Magneto whooped on a whole bunch of Orcs (Mimring, Grimnak, two squads of heavies included) before Krug with four wounds engaged and destroyed him.
So ... I feel like 300 is fine for him. But 310 is ok too. He's definitely in the right range for his power level. And, he's had my stamp for a long time now. :D

[Eclipse]

EDIT: Nevermind.

I played him a couple more times. He seems to go either way depending on how the blue dice roll. On the whole he's pretty solid. Good enough for a big red:


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/netherspirit/approved.gif

[IAmBatman]

Great, looks like I can lock 'er down. :D

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Congrats Allskulls! TNT number 4!!

[Boromir_and_kermit]

Congratulations. That is great news!!!!

[allskulls]

Thanks, guys! I'll get the stamped version up soon.

[Firemaster]

Thanks, guys! I'll get the stamped version up soon.

And when you do, I shall create the book.

[GreyOwl]

Congratulations! I'm looking forward to using this card. :)

[allskulls]

STAMPED!!!

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/Magneto.jpg

[Chuckrock]

Rock on! Now to get the model!